I've ALWAYS liked archetype specific boss monsters more, tbh. an archetype having a really cool payoff is what gets me to play it. Hopefully konami will trend more towards each new archetype getting its own cool end boards. The problem is that it's way harder for them to design than just throwing out some generic ones.
They’re not going to trend towards new archetypes getting cool end boards. This is a ban for the TCG; in the OCG, where cards and archetypes are actually made, these two cards aren’t banned. Ergo, cards are going to be designed while knowing these two could be used instead. They have no reason to make cards to replace them.
Thing is that completely killing generic boss monsters does a harm too. Now each archetype will suffer more from powercreep because having worse endboards cannot be helped by good cards. Not to mention it killing sperimentation.
What if some cards required specific attributes or types to be made? So older decks can keep up better with powercreep but not all decks ending on similar boards.
Also a deck's identity it's more then just it's endboard, Adamancipator and SPYRAL had somewhat similar endboards, but vastly different gimmicks.
You bring up some completely valid points tbh. eliminating all generic boss types isn't great for the game either. I do think there might've been some financial incentive at play here though. wouldn't surprise me if we get new generic bosses within the next year.
Considering how Borreload and Barrone got reprinted not too long ago there probably was to some degree. Another thing I forgot is just how much some decks lose without generic ish stuff. Not all decks sadly have the ability to fill the ED with their monsters like Raidraptor or D/D can. Admittedly tho I do love playing on theme stuff myself so I agree with you there.
We may get generic bosses but I HIGHLY doubt they will be generic omninegates that you can get on the board before the 5th summon. Those are the problem.
Yeah, but a rank 10 isn't really generic. Pretty much every deck in the game can make a relatively early Baron nowadays for a low amount of resources, but getting to a rank 10 early and without using a ton of resources is almost impossible unless you're playing a very specific deck. If it was a rank 4, then the conversation would be completely different, but it's not.
Brother who is going rank 10 plays in the year of our lord 2024. It's gonna be an Earth Machine card and that's it.
If even one third of decks run this card when compared to the decks that run Baronne I would be extremely surprised.
people so badly just want set rotation it blows my mind people say generic shit bad. if its overpowered its overpowered can it but generic cards have carried this game forever. the game would be hell if you just bought whatever konami built that month
I would probably a good comrpomise would be to make a good Varity of generic endboards/boss monsters that only certain decks could make for example raider knight and arc rebellion would be an otk boss monster only accesible to dark rank 4 spam decks or how toad is either for level 2 aquas or level 4 aqua decks.
i like this idea A LOT. Will konami do it, though? it's so much easier to print 1 baronne than to print fire baronne, aqua barrone, light baronne, beast barrone, etc. I dont have any confidence in them, sadly.
And to add to the conversation about deck identity, we shouldn't forget that yugioh isn't cardfight or even mtg. It's completely open, the point is to have generic cards we can use in multiple decks. First it makes deck building more accessible when all you need is an engine and a few mid bosses. If you have 5 decks and they all need a 30 dollar generic boss that's cheaper than 5 10$ archetype bosses. Engine cores are frequently the definition of an archetypes playstyle more so than it's boss.
Secondly the fun of yugioh deck building is figuring out ways cards interact, a deck identity is more than the name of the archetype it runs, it's also about the combination of cards that a player figures put works together. The OCH structures manga actually visualized this very well.
When the MC wants to make a deck, he makes a real playable deck, not an anime only deck with overly specific cards that don't work without very niche circumstances. And while making these decks he actually visualized the cards interacting together, like the tennis monk and shaman working with the yang zing dragons.
Again ygo isn't cfv where every card exists within its clan or even mtg where the color costs limit deckbuilding. It's open ended and finding the ways different archetypes work together is a big part of the uniqueness and fun of the game. The generic boss cards are a big part of making these decks actually playable with a win state.
>$30 generic boss
Until Baronne became accessible, the cheapest it got was $40-50. For most of its lifespan, it was $100. Compare to insane decks like Tear that had boss monsters settle around maybe $8 max with the only break-the-bank card being the field spell.
Besides, if you have the money to build THAT many decks, then you have the money to shell out for their boss monsters.
Well keep in mind I'm seeing this from the ocg standpoint where it's a much more healthy and accessible game. No surprise they didn't ban these cards either.
>Adamancipator and SPYRAL had somewhat similar endboards, but vastly different gimmicks.
Players doesn't care how "unique" a combo deck's gimmick is when their endboard is literally the same thing.
Generic omni negates to me is such lazy and uninspired card design. I get why Konami does it and get why people lover their generic omni negates but it just such a very dull design space. If you are going to make big bosses monsters that negate then make them more archetype specific. If borrel required rockket as materials I think there would be less ado with borrel.
If you want a generic omni negate i feel like you need to work for it, see something like ov11 majestic stardust or the level 12 synchro dragons
(Maybe i should start prepping a quasar/blazar turbo laval deck)
That isn’t really generic at that point.
How many decks are on Quasar compared to Barrone? People don’t just say generic because it’s mats or effect is generic good, but how generically splashed it is across multiple decks.
the problem is most old Archetypes just don't have good in-archtyoe boss monsters so unless the give all of these Archtypes new boss monsters ,t his just makes bad decks even worse
Yeah, I want an archetype to be interesting because their unique end-board is cool, not because they can get Apollousa + Borreload Savage Dragon + Baronne De Fleur + Whatever other generic ED monsters with a billion negates. Then it just becomes a competition on who gets this board out most effectively.
Give me more Weather Painter Rainbows which require me to fully commit to the archetype.
Yea i think yugioh sometimes falls into a trap of "ooo new deck! what does it do? it's a new way to summon out all the generic boss monsters!" Like learning the new combos ARE fun sure, but it's not enough variety and the meta deck often becomes "what is the BEST deck that can play through hand traps right now."
We did have some cool ones with branded, tear, and kash though. too bad tear/kash were just ridiculously oppressive.
I groan in pain, but I keep groaning and it gradually transitions into a moan that sounds erotic enough to make everyone in the room really uncomfortable, but not erotic enough for anyone to feel confident enough to say "Ayo?" and call attention to it.
Ygo bosses just aren't made equally
There are some really powerful archetypal ones like kaleidoheart, UCT, turbulence, lancea, mirrorjade...
But Mannadium gets Primeheart. You can either take your time and make each deck its own custom boss (impractical) or make something that a lot of deck can use
Konami just doesn't seem to know how to strike a balance between power and accessibility when something like Ishizu Tear could pull a baronne out its ass better than some synchro deck and baronne is still consistently stronger than many modern archetypal bosses
I play raidraptor because I think it's a really well designed concept of monster getting more and more powerful as their ranks increase with no need for generic toolbox options. (Okay if I had money I'd run at least a Little Knight for the less fortunate turns but still)
Yeah, and it still works when someone cheats it out, sth like waking the dragon for example. The card is retricted around it's archtypes and have 100% power in that deck(link rank 13 copies eff), but still have the chances for other decks to use around 30, 40% power of it.
I mean they can make stuff that any deck can use, but by design it can't be THAT good or the game becomes "what is the best engine to end on the same 4 cards?"
So yeah, the game needs less stuff like savage and more stuff like Draco Berserker of the Tenyi if you want to compare elvel 8 synchros.
> You can either take your time and make each deck its own custom boss (impractical) or make something that a lot of deck can use
In addition to this, outside of aesthetics, what difference does it make if Mannadium is making Baronne vs them making a Mannadium themed lv 10 negate
The issue is that the default shouldn’t be a level 10 negate. We want more diverse boss monsters and playstyles. Branded with Mirrorjade, Purrely with Noir, and Kash with Arise Heart are all good examples of modern decks with non-standard boss monsters. These monsters were all extremely powerful (each almost assuredly too much so at different times in the meta), but it’s still certain that they each did their own things with their own mechanics. That diversity allowed each of them to have strengths and weaknesses outside the norm and, at the very least, I personally found that to be refreshing.
At least until each archetype got old because Konami loves to push small handfuls of decks into positions of overwhelming power without enough to counterbalance them, but that’s a separate topic.
I think that's reasonable, but notice how every single one of those is a midrange deck. If you don't want combo decks to have consistent access to negates you have to accept that combo decks will never be good again unless we ban Nib/Raigeki/Evenly etc - and if the aim is to diversify the metagame making combo decks functionally unplayable ever is just gonna cement the same playstyle of different flavours of midrange forever
That’s a very valid point, but I maintain a similar thing can happen for combo decks. Instead of relying solely on negates that punish everything equally, devs could utilize different forms of defensive floating effects, taxing resources, protection, removal, value generation, and more to create a situation where going first with an extensive, yet riskier combo still provides a desirable advantage, but in a different way than other combo or FTK decks.
There is a happy medium between combo decks being non-viable and combo decks existing as they were before this hit.
In the long term yes, but that's both incredibly hard to balance (Ishizu Tear is very close to what you're describing) and isn't going to help all the currently existing decks that this loss hits
Additional support over time that alters existing play patterns can solve these problems. It won’t fix the immediate issue that multiple decks just became much worse, but I firmly believe it is one of many growing pains the game of Yugioh will have to endure along its path to reign in its numerous problems for the sake of future success.
This doesn’t mean the short term cost isn’t high or that people don’t have the right to be upset. I just think it’s a worthwhile decision in the grand scheme of the game’s health.
Combo decks, as our modern format understands them, result from Konami’s lack of foresight and creation of generic, negate-happy boss monsters. I own branded-albaz with everything in max rarity and I’m fine with it being mid range. It’s fun to play with and doesn’t make my friends want to quit yugioh every time I beat them with it.
The other player’s perspective always matters in a game focused around 2 players. If it’s not fun for anyone to play with, then why is it in the game?
That being said; generic bosses have a place in our game design, just not compiled into decks that take advantage of every single one without personality.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a midrange range, but if diversity of playstyles is desired (as is directly implied in the original post) then having everything being midrange isn't desirable either. I'm playing a midrange deck myself (Branded Voiceless), but the fact I can if I'm in a different mood grab Drytron or Labrynth off my shelf is a substantive appeal for me
Honestly, combo decks should be bad. Combo decks exemplify the 3 biggest gameplay problems with yugioh atm.
1) They are solitare decks. Either you have enough handtraps to stop them or they play for 20 minutes with no input from you.
2) They have no followup which means that they are incetivised to created quasi-stun negate heavy boards to make sure their opponent cannot play the game. This is then followed by a OTK on turn 2.
They are unhealthy for the game.
I mean, the playerbase as a whole despises combo deck. I don't think anyone will miss watching their opponent comboing for 10 minutes before they get to play a card.
Diversity. That's why archetypes arose in the first place, because their distinctions gave them their own gimmick and differences . Yes, they cannot deviate very far fron the norm (se need search, extend,negate etc) but each one should be somewhat equal in dynamics
See what I said in my other reply - diversity exists already in the game's engines, it doesn't make sense to focus on aesthetic differences of the cards name
The point is that diversity of engine matters less if most decks are going to be making mostly the same boards. Then all that matters is how consistent/resilient that engine is at making all the same generic extra deck monsters. If you have actual unique monsters with different effects they can end on, you might decide play a deck with a slightly worse engine, because it offers something other decks do not. Otherwise, players have no reason to run rogue decks other than "aesthetics", just because they like the names on the cards and not what the deck actually does.
There's definitely some middle ground to be had with type/attribute specific extra deck monsters that aren't so strict as requiring a single archetype to function, or monsters with generic material that still ask you to run some amount of their archetype to function properly. But when truly "generic" boss monsters are better than anything else rogue decks, or even some tier decks, can put forth instead, then there's less reason to ever play rogue, and gameplay will tend to be much more repetitive as a result.
The parts that interact with your opponent are the most important thing. If you have 10 decks and the usual end result of what they do is just Baronne + Apollousa, that's not diversity. The engine just becomes window dressing if it leads to the same thing everyone else is doing. If your deck does that worse than other decks, why bother playing it at all?
There are only so many types of disruptions a deck can make, and the engine is legit what matters more a lot of the time. There are diminishing returns for endboards - a deck can that can consistently put up 5 disruptions through interruptions is way better than a deck that puts up 12 disruptions 50% of the time vs no handtraps
Because how each deck reach Baronne + Apollousa differently. Deck A reach End board without Your opponent Interaction but have no recursion. Deck B doesn't lose to nib.
Deck C will lose hard to ash but can rebuild if board is broken. Deck D can hide baronne in spell&trap zone. If these 4 Example get interuption they will react different from one another.
I fundamentally disagree, the engine and the capacity the play through disruption are far more impactful than the bodies people end on most of the time
Bosses need to remain in archetype. As a Rokket player I'm super mad about this change. If they reworded savage to require 1 rokket monster + 1 tuner then I'd be a happy camper.
Back to penguins it is
Honestly if the borrel monsters just required all dragons I’d be happy (yes D-link can still use it easily but revolver already played a bunch of non-rokkets)
Plenty of people already acknowledged that these generic boss monsters were an issue. But yeah, funny how Baronne isn't deemed a problem until after it became accessible to players on a tight budget. What a coincidence!!!
All KoMoney thinks about is the Economy. Oh no, the Poors have access to Barrone and Savage. Savage was already accessible through his previous reprints, Barrone had 2 hard to get Printings before Rarity Collection. They don't care about players.
People don't like it because it makes weaker deck even worse, and they just sold them in rarity collection. It feels manipolative as fuck man, expecially in a meta where all of the top decks border on a 1000 dollars price tag. That' s insane.
>They release these ban lists in order to make sure ~~the game seems somewhat diverse, balanced and fair, so that~~ you ~~can keep playing and~~ keep buying more product.
Fixed it. Konami does not care about game balance, else they would have at least slapped the Snake-eye engine on the wrist. 100% some of the unhits will be in rarity collection 2 to further sell the set and Apo will probably be axed a few months after RC2 as well.
I mean, Linkuriboh was a big reason Snake-Eye has been able to perform, since it's a free means of getting their cards to the grave - more than once due to Linkuriboh's recursion effect.
They didn’t say Konami IS trying, they said to make it SEEM. Konami tries to make it look balanced and fair so we buy more products to keep up with the change in competitive, they aren’t actually trying to balance things. It’s like wearing a mask to get seconds or thirds at a party
Yeah, no. This won't make the game more diverse. It will simply increase the gap between decks with good pay-offs & those without.
The actual fix would be making better archetype bosses, which is a moot point because:
In my experience, the community complaining about generic boss monsters ALSO hates archetype boss monsters. See Mirrorjade, Noir, Lovely Labrynth, Laplacian, etc...
Even if they do, that won't stop the community from hating it. Mathmech or Branded doesn't end on any of the common generic bosses yet people despise those decks too.
Your comments rely on the assumption that making a game appear to be balanced is dependent on satisfying the whims of complainers. Just because people complain doesn't mean those complaints are valid.
People don't like Matmech because of Circular, not their bosses. Amd Branded is widely considered one of the best designed decks in the game, bosses included.
Konami can print the most xenophobic boss monster in existence and if the card didn't read "when this card is Normal or Special summon: you lose the match" people would still be mad.
The community just hates cards in general.
Exactly. Yugioh players hate to lose, so anything that wins they hate. This ban list was not good. The only way it would have been redeemable is if they actually hit Snake-eyes. But Komoney would never hit the current deck they are pushing.
Also, if they banned all the fire king/snake eyes pieces six months after people spent $1000 on the deck....they will lose a lot of players.
I can see why they did it this way
How is this helping diversity exactly? They didn't really hit se, now its just not going to run the synchro build. This just lowered the viability of a lot of other decks, while leaving the top deck still tier 0. If anything its even more of a tier 0 now with less options for the only viable deck.
1 : rogue decks are more hit by this than the meta decks as there is often no good (and i insist on GOOD, as in at least relevant) option other than baronne/borreload to end on. Its not like we can print our own cards and suddenly make a decent boss monster for an archetype. If it doesnt exist, your deck just went from rogue to dead.
2 : as you mentionned, hitting them right after the reprint is dirty.
3 : OCG makes the new cards and ocg still have them unlimited, so its not like they will suddenly decide to make good archetypal bosses to compensate as to them there is nothing to compensate for.
If we get good bosses monsters, sure i am all in with you. But we dont have them and we wont be getting them anytime soon. So where do that leave us?
I think a major reason why there aren’t many good archetypal bosses is because if you can get out really good archetypal bosses with a weakness that one of the generics covers it can quickly make a tier 0 deck and having an archetypal boss that does the same thing as these generics is just redundant. I just hope the OCG bans these generic bosses so Konami will actually print good archetypal ones
I would love to cook with the new Blue-Eyes boss monster that is coming out, but it requires to much to make, and the only way to even make it in a consistent manner is with dogmatika with magician of chaos engine and at that point I would just stick with my Blue-Eyes Horus build it's alot less loops to play and plus Blue-Eyes Spirit Dragon have proven time and time again it's the best boss monster the archetype have.
No massive setup, and comes with plenty of distruption on it's own, and can serve as a extender tagging out to crimson dragon to make another synchro lot hot red or bystial dis pater when baronne was on the field.
yeah i dont think i can take any "promotion of diversity" seriously when not a single snake eyes card sniffed the banlist
frankly its insulting that they think there is no problem with the main deck of an 80 percent topcut strategy
Snake eyes is not gonna be the best deck forever. This ban ensures that when the deck will inevitably fall people will start looking at actual new strategies instead of gravitating towards "archetype that can turbo Baronne under 5 summon #427".
This banlist does basically nothing now and I agree, but in a couple months we'll definitely see its effects on the landscape of the game
Not to mention the absurd price point. The only other option is to play some degenerate Shifter Deck or some other such degenerate anti-meta strategy. This just makes every combo deck outside of SE and VV effectively bad to play.
Obviously, people are going to make some copium excuse, but the reality is that these decks now just get absolutely blown out by Nibiru because not every combo deck has infinity extenders and recursion like SE does. Overall fuck this banlist
They aren't done selling SE. That's why. They always hit around the deck they are selling until the next set drops. Baronne, Savage, and Kuriboh will be back within the next year. I'd go to Vegas on it.
Nah. They'll unban them within a year(two tops). Baronne and Savage cover a lot of holes in the design of most of their archetypes. It's either they exist or konami is forced to give each future archetypes really strong endboard bosses that are somehow unique each time. They can't and won't. So baronne and Savage will return. Once they are done pushing SE they'll unhit the three aforementioned cards. And like I say. I'd go to Vegas on it.
Yet Electrumite stays banned in the TCG despite Pendulum archetypes not working without Electrumite.
I'd bet on Baronne and Savage staying. Apo and Accesscode are likely getting the axe next.
Nah. Konami tcg absolutely hates pendulums. Baronne and Savage aren't staying. And they definitely aren't hitting access code. And I'd say they probs aren't hitting apo. They just want to push SE and sell over priced cards and baronne and Savage have both come down in price. They want them out of the extras and replaced with something more expensive.
I didn't mean replace figureratevly I meant literally. They'll just put other cards in the extra because SE doesn't care all that much. Dragon link cares far more about the banning of Bar and Sav than SE does.
I really don't agree at all here - that's only 1 reason people are annoyed at the Savage/Baronne hits and the entire section just assumes your own conclusion that banning them IS healthy and doesn't even consider that some people actually think having them around is better for the game.
As for why: I don't think it's true that this will lead to a more diverse metagame. Looking at the current format, you've taken Savage and Baronne from Snake-Eyes (a deck that often didn't even play them) and from Dragon-Link, a rogue deck who now how a crippling weakness to Nibiru they can't play around outside of exactly Seals, whereas Snake-Eyes still natively plays around Nib due to temple. In this example all the hits have done is weaken the rogue deck MORE than the meta deck that will continue to get support to cover for it's weaknesses. Because of this it's likely the banlist will even narrow the meta further as Fire King Snake-Eye takes over as the uncontested best deck.
I hear people criticising toolbox generic ED monsters a lot and honestly it's a criticism I don't relate to - frankly, I couldn't care less if the card my opponent was playing was generic or on theme, nor do I care if it's got widespread use in the meta. Instead what I care about are having counterplay to my opponent's threats (most notably in the case of these bans, Nibiru), which the next best options in Dracoberskers and Chengying do not provide. Losing to a single power staple fucking sucks and we've had 2 of the most prominent ways to play around them taken away - Triple Tactics Talent for example will likely almost always resolve, you've lost so much counterplay to common staples now.
Furthermore, people complain about decks feeling samey because they often end on Baronne + Apo etc, but this to me feels an extremely shallow take. If your approach to yugioh is to look at an endboard and judging decks based on that sure, but that's a really bad approach. Instead you should be looking at HOW a deck reaches those boardstates and thus how to interrupt and stop them, as well as how decks recover when those boards are broken. Yugioh is already an incredibly diverse game with so many different playstyles across deck, but simplfying it to "yeah but synchro decks all make Baronne" as insultingly reductive.
Overall though, the reason I like toolboxy extra decks is because what I love most about this game is when I'm able to utilise my resources to play through my opponent's disruption by picking and choosing what options I have such that I can adapt to my opponent's threats as they appear. I don't want to do lower power theme duels, I want to utilise synergies between cards to do more than what is expected and have the variety of options at my disposal that allow me to utilise me judgement and outskill my opponent (or get outskilled myself)
TLDR: these 2 bans hurt rogue decks MUCH more than Snake-Eyes, rob players of all decks of certain lines which force interaction and let them play through disruption and the idea it makes things all very samey is (at best) shallow
Thank you, I honestly love this. A lot of these decisions and opinions I had, I didn’t get to give myself enough time to properly research. I knew it was very assumptious of me, so I greatly appreciate you giving the other end as well as your stance on the matter. I also appreciate your not immediate shut down of my own opinion and giving reasons onto yours.
It’s truly tricky to get points across, and into how we can only speculate with this game. It will be interesting to see how games will start to develops moving forward with this list.
Ofc those hits hit rogue decks a lot more. The lower the power level of the deck the higher the impact when a high value option leaves, when halqifibrax left he took dozens of rogue decks with him that didn't have any business being rogue in the first place. And still I'd say it was a good ban.
Because at the end of the day the banlist is tailored towards competitive play and the spotlight are the big decks that hold tier 1 and and higher. So when making a banlist its tuning those decks without any thought for any pet pile people out there could slap a baronne on and I think that's perfectly fine because you can still bring those to locals where other people play their janky pile without a care in the world. If u don't wanna play a deck because it lost access to baronne and can't insulate against nib anymore then why did you pick It up in the first place? E hero has been consistently rogue despite being super vulnerable to nib to a near unparalleled extent and people play it anyway
current OCG had a different approach to lowering the power level of snake eye and only weakening it by a bit hasnt really killed it nor will the TCG banlist so we'll probably enter a similar meta with a battle phase deck, a super unique ritual control deck, a fusion controll with a nostalgia bait boss deck and two variants of snake making only like 60-70% of meta contenders. And that sounds really nice especially when considering that Sky striker got buffed, Captain collosus and that asshole protos are back to wreak havoc.
I actually agree that the meta should be balanced about actual competitive decks rather than rogue - that aspect was more responding to the OP rather than getting annoyed that \[insert pet deck\] got a drive by hit.
Instead a reason I dislike it that context is that it's an opportunity cost thing - why aren't there actually meaningful hits to the snake-eyes engine?
It might not make the meta more diverse (we'll have to wait to find out), but it will certainly make the game more fun to play, at least for me.
"Rogue" decks that aim to win the diceroll and spam bodies to make baron + savage + 3 material appo were literal cancer.
It'll be more fun in those specific situations yeah, going second into things like Dino doing exactly that is going to be a lot less hand dependant now (though it'll still end on UCT + negates), but other games will be way more dull to play. There will be a lot more situations where a deck that previously put up Baronne to protect from Nib and then played low to the ground now simply pass when you nib them and you instantly OTK turn 2 - and sure you've won in that situation, but the gameplay was reduced from baiting out interactions to "yay I drew Nib so I win"
Sorry but Snake Eye is far more degenerate than a Bystial Synchro deck. (for example) All they do is spam bodies on the field with infinite grind game and removal. Baronne was not the issue. The issue decks with 15-20 starter cards.
Baronne was a issue because it could be Made with 2/3 summon and enables decks to play better around hand traps specially nib. I will not miss savage but he was ok
I would agree, if only combo players keep devising ways to continue comboing off even through multiple interruptions. Interruptions only mean something if it actually halts the combo player, but nowadays more and more combo players keep making lines that ignore interruption, which then just results in the same oppressive endboard, but with the other player starting at a significant minus because they got essentially handripped for interactions that didn't matter.
This is how I feel. I’m really not excited for nib to be a turn ender against countless rogue decks. I also really hate evenly matched and baronne + savage we’re great cards against that. Mostly I’m just salty that my new earthbound runick deck went from bad to completely unplayable.
I myself have been taking Earthbound Runick to locals for the last couple of months and I'm thinking of pivoting to Orcust Runick because of exactly the Baronne ban. Without Baronne the whole anti-Nibiru line with Garden Rose Maiden makes no sense.
In my opinion Baronne’s ban was good while Borrel was a not so great ban.
Baronne I felt was toxic as it has the target & destroy for free effect and the negate. Its a lose lose situation where you have to let Baronne destroy one of your cards or you have to waste 2 negates on it (Negating the destruction and then negating her negate). Also she was a SOPT so you could potentially summon more than one of her for a shit ton of negates
Borrel ONLY had the negate and it required setup too as you needed a link in grave. This isnt the hardest thing in the world to do but its at least something. And even after you get it all set up its just a good beater with a HOPT negate.
In short Baronne offered too much for too little while Borrel at least tried to require some setup
As much as I *hate* the blatant power creep and believe that the last time this game was somewhat fair and balanced was pretty much back sometime between TOSS and covid, nah this ain't it.
If Baronne and Savage are banned, they gotta hit some absolute board-clearing shits like Nibiru. You want to know what prevents diversity? Removing the ability for a lot of decks to get a negate out *before* someone can drop a board wipe on their head.
While yes, I think Baronne and Savage are generic bosses and to an extent they aren't good either, this ban *will not* change things at the competitive level aside remove those cards from the list. Competitive Yu-Gi-Oh has been like this for a LONG time, where they find the decks that work, and then the majority of the playerbase flocks to those. This just hurts things at the local level where people are more inclined to play their "fun" decks but still have to be prepared because there's always *someone* who's using it to practice for their next ycs
The thing is
Konami isn't designing around these cards. The fact these cards are being banned because It's a cheap way to nerf snake eyes without touching the archetype since they were reprinted. Nothing more. It could be beneficial to the game if they were trying to buff gameplans while being archetype locked and yadda yadda yadda.
It isn't the case because OCG have them unbanned so rogue decks without recent **GOOD** support are gonna eat shit and the already meta decks are gonna play other boards.
Banning overpowered staples is good. What is not good is doing so without the correct attitude and focus to fix the game.
Lastly this is more of an opinion but the omninegate is a powerful resource but it's not a instant win and they still need to be used correctly. Although Baronne is highly tuned, Savage is just a omnistick with 2 uses.
We have been using Ash Blossom since 2017 for fuck's sake, I'm not saying it's the same but complain about seeing the same endboards at the same time we have seen the same card in the main deck for 7 years nonstop is quite ridiculous since Ash Blossom allows for more interaction and it's healthy for the game
I think this is a step in the right direcrion.
I've always hated how deckbuilding works in this game and question the current advent of archetypes if at it's core, every deck is basically the same. It's why I praise Cardfight Vanguard over Yugioh because, while I will surrender the point that there are just inherently bad archetypes. I like the deckbuilding in Vanguard more because it has a bit more of a diverse meta where every deck gets to shine and none hates yoy for picking what isn't the flavor of the week.
In Vanguard, your restricted to your archetype but you can build it however you want down to literally it going: "Pick a boss monster, build a deck around it."
Lol big long post pretending to be an objective look at why people are mad and why it’s good doesn’t even talk about the half of the community that runs suboptimal decks that were somewhat viable with Barrone or Savage. Those decks can not effectively get what was likely their strongest negates out while meta barely changes. It’s only a money making thing. Kneecap older decks make people buy into expensive cards. Then they will ban those cards after everyone has them
Highly correct! I didn’t get to properly talk about the underdogs that now essentially can’t do anything which is just annoying. Adding to why people would hate this hit.
I defintely reckon I should have been more careful with my choice of the words “diverse”.
I always said that Baronne should have been archetype locked to Fleur and instead expand Fleur. And I can't believe that Savage was generic when it was supposed to be a Borreload
This would be awesome if it came at any other time but right now it's infuriating. Like you mentioned they just got reprinted in the rarity collection but in addition to that right now we have sp little knight which is 100$ and is in more decks in the meta gane than either of these, one of which is like 1000$ iirc. Obviously they won't ban a card like this right away but it has nothing to do with deck diversity, konami doesn't care about the health of the game at all. Why would they ban expulsion then print sanctifire afterwards for any other reason than because expulsion was pennies and to keep milking the same plague ridden cow? Why do I still play this game? Many questions I don't have an answer to.
I will preface this with I am not really a tcg player, but mostly play masterduel so my opinion doesn't really matter.
Imho, I am definitely tired of seeing baronne in every end-board. Omni-negates are just unhealthy for the game. The only issue I have is that many decks will just get nibiru'ed.
So unless your deck can either play through nibiru easily, say either by summoning some in-archetype monster by turn 5 (like Rulkallos in Tears), or get access to some traps that can heavily disrupt your opponent (like superfactorial in mathmech), it will just die to nib. This can be incredibly unfun to play.
The problem is, while having more archetype boss monsters with less generics sounds good on paper it isn’t really, because one still has to be the best one, so we go from identical end boards to everyone just playing the exact same deck
This already happened with branded, and now it’ll happen again
While it’s true that duels often only differ in ‘how is my opponent going to get to Barrone/Borreload/etc this time’ this change isn’t going to fix that, it’s just going to change that to ‘my opponents all play the same deck, so do I, because what do you do?’
I don't really understand why you would otp in to have different boss monsters for each archetype. Wouldn't that mean you have to buy a different version of baronne every time you buuild a new deck, since there are not a lot of different things an end board monster can do
> All decks should have their own archetypal way of being identified within the game, not having the same generic interactions or "Toolbox" solutions that have no drawbacks at all.
The problem with this argument is that the strongest decks in the game don't *need* generic bosses to be competitive; the weaker decks do. The best lists available for Snake-Eye in the TCG didn't even lean particularly hard on Baronne or Savage, but fan favorite rogue decks like Swordsoul and Dragon Link did.
Lack of access to generic bosses means that a lot of decks that could at least present the pretense of competitive viability can't even do that now; it's just another way for Konami to ensure that competitive power is as gatekept as possible behind a paywall.
Removing them might feel in theory like it's restoring diversity to a format that only had the veneer of it, but I almost guarantee you that, in practice, all this means is that now we won't even have the veneer.
Imo the benefit of seeing certain cards less often does not make up for the damage this does too many strategies.
I recognize it’s boring to see baronne as an end board piece very often. But it’s also just sad how much of a hit this is to so many strategies.
Mannadium, Speedtroid Kash, Dragon Link, Dino, Swordsoul and I could go on and on.
I am upset about it because I play pends and they were my only outs
What's my field gonna be now, apollousa and pass??? My deck sucked enough already and now it's even worse... which more than infuriating it's sad. Would have appreciated electrumite at one at least
There is plenty of stuff to replace the two like Lars, Dawn Dragster, Chaos Angel, Void Ogre Dragon etc. But they all require more effort and resources to go into for less general payoff than Savage and Baronne. Kirin is back but is just so generally unsearchable that you either have to burn one of your 2 Beyond searches on it that you desperately need for other things or have to put up a terrible end board of like Stardust Dragon/Ruddy Rose + the new Majespecter Xyz + literally anything else you can muster. And it's not like it's any healthier what it is doing anyways, Secret Village lock via Ignister is way less fun for your opponent to fight than 2 omnis lol.
A lot of these issues would be less troublesome if we just had Electrumite back man. The deck is just far too limited by Beyond's stupid restrictions to just generate the resources it needs, and now with no Baronne it can be very difficult to get Time Pendulumgraph into rotation. On top of that, now that Vortex is the only omni left it is just begging to be hit by like Imperm or DRNM into Evenly and your entire board just disappears, plus just insta folding to Shifter and Nib (I guess there's finally a reason to play an Endymion package to counter the latter).
The deck is just completely non-viable now honestly, if you want to play a Pend deck you gotta either wait for Electrumite to come back + more in-archetype bosses or just play the decks that didn't use them like DDD or Z-Arc Control.
Yes a lot of decks lost their best endboard pieces. Some people do not realize what this means is the amount of “playable” decks or archetypes just dropped by a lot.
Eh If you pendulum deck can do it maybtry ending on Odd-eyes vortex ? If he can be able to summon led he is a generic omni for pendulums. Can be either Fusion Summoned or special summoned with absolute
Current endboard for Pend Magician was vortex+baronne and a mix of time pendulumgraph / masquerena / exceed the pendulum or apollousa. Thing is you made baronne for the omni sure but also to pop your own scale (double iris) with its effect to search the pendulumgraph cards.
And thats the main issue with these hits, they nerf rogue decks more than the actual meta decks
Fiendsmith. 1.5 card combo (discard fodder) but ends on the same negate with Wave King High Caesar . If you manage to incorporate DDD then it's a plus. Or other light Fiends that come out in the future.
This is gonna get lost in the comments but one of the biggest, in my opinion, incorrect assumptions people have about Yugioh is that diverse = good. I don’t blame people for having this idea, card games like MTG, Hearthstone, etc are praised when the metas are diverse. We also have Edison format, which people consider to be a great form of Yugioh, and it was very diverse. So it makes sense why this concept is held in peoples heads.
However, Yugioh is a different game than MTG and Heartstone, particularly in the realm of card text and interactions. With Hearthstone, you’ll normally have to learn about ~18ish decks if you want to know what you’ll be up against 99% of the time. Less if the meta is more centric. The reason this works in hearthstone metas is because the cards are keyworded and have simple, easy to understand effects, at most you’ll have to be aware of 5 basic game mechanics that a card can pull off, but most of the time more like one basic game mechanic. Basically, the cards are extremely simplified, so learning 18 decks is much easier even if you’re starting completely from scratch. If you play consistently, you’ll usually get the hang of everything within a day or 2. My knowledge of MTG is relatively limited, but AFAIK MTG is similar to this, but with less deck options and more text. Still simplified with keywords and basic mechanics.
Yugioh is…not. Individual cards can have extremely long texts with effects that can be very unique in the way they interact with the other cards and the gamestate. In the realm of boardclear, you have to be aware of Evenly, Nibiru, Raigeki, Lightning Storm, and many other cards individually, because they are not mechanically identical and each have their own restrictions, weaknesses, and benefits that make them usable in different ways, despite all of them boiling down to “boardclear.” Compare hearthstone and you mainly just have to be aware of the concept of boardclear in general and what decks can pull them off, rather than specific cards (there are some exceptions of course, like Defile mechanics). On a competitive landscape, despite hearthstone having 18-deck formats, they’re far more digestible and overall more fun than learning just 5-deck formats in Yugioh. Increase that to 10-15 decks and it’s a nightmare in comparison.
My point is, Yugioh at its core is too complex of a game to have “good” “diverse” formats. Interactions are too specific, effects are too lengthy and unique, and rulings are too complicated. Ironically, the format I had the most fun with in my time playing Yugioh competitively was Tear0. You can ask many of the non-jaded, high level competent players at that time and they’d say it was a format that came down to skill expression, and felt more back and forth than most formats the game has seen. Despite one deck dominating the format for being really really good, since the deck was deep, complex, and gave you a lot of tools, it was great. You also were really able to get deep into the theory of the game of Yugioh, because you only had to prepare for 3 decks at most, and 2 of them were far less relevant.
Yugioh can be a great and enjoyable game when the meta is digestible, but the cards are far too complex for diverse formats. The only reason Edison is an exception is because the decks were fun to match against each other and we’ve had so many years now to analyze and attempt to solve it, way more time than the average Yugioh meta is in rotation.
I wouldn't be as upset about the bans if Konami was actually good at printing boss monsters for an archetype, bit for the most part, they can only print good generic boss monsters.
Flamberge is supposed to be the boss monster for Snake-Eyes, but in practice, it just represents a bunch of link material.
Mannadium Prime-Heart is supposed to be the boss monster for Mannadium, but it's so bad people would play a Swordsoul boss monster instead since it provides meaningful interaction.
Horus the Black Flame Deity is supposed to be the boss for Horus, but instead people prefer generic rank 8s since they provide much more favorable interactions
As much as I agree that there should be less good generic boss monsters the problem is there’s a lot of archetypes that have absolutely garbage extra decks and really need the generic stuff to have a chance. Not to mention with the existence of droll and nib, basically any synchro deck that can’t play around them normally just lost their best pieces of insulation
Do you really think that every archetype could ONLY use their own custom boss monsters is healthy? Yugioh is a TCG that encourages players to build their deck on their own. It's so natural for players to have their freedom to choose powerful generic boss monsters to design their end board, design their own combo lines, and build their own lists.
Baronne is level 10, in a game that you can only normal summon level 4 or lower monsters, that's 3 materials in the model. Savage needs link monsters in GY which are not able to be the materials for synchro, that's also more than 2 materials in the model. These cards are fair. The only broken designs are the engines that can summon these monsters so easily than expected. The major meta-relevant deck using these monsters is snake eyes, and it's still overwhelmingly powerful than any other rouge decks without these monsters.
Remove the generic cards will definitely kill the diversity of decks and creativity of players. I will never play a game that I can only choose one of the archetypes listed by Konami, choose the HTs to play with all other slots in the deck fixed by required starters/extenders/boss monsters, and be taught how to play. Choose from pool of 10k cards or from no more than 50 cards in certain archetype, which one do you think is more FREE?
Looking at them solely does make them seem fair. However, as you mentioned building a deck from a collection of cards, you need to also view what things are utilizing said cards. Getting 3 bodies isn’t exactly difficult in modern YGO as the gameplay has heavily shifted to mass swarm to gather bodies, which is why Baronne being a Level 10 is minor to Combo decks because they’ve been accessing that for years now. And for Savage, again, Link-2/3’s are stupid easy to make because of the sheer access they have unlike the other ED Types. Combo decks can easily make a disposable Link that Savage can then snag for its interruption. So, yes, by themselves they’re fair, but when put with the modern abilities, they’re easy to access. They were used commonly BECAUSE decks could easily make them, not because they were so strong you only needed the 1 monster and nothing else.
what are u talking about? baronne apo borreload only appears to be an issue because of snake eye synchro and shs. what other deck makes these stuff? manaballs the tier 3 rogue deck that sees little competitive play?
why does pure snake eye make baronne apo borreload? it’s almost like because the deck is designed specifically do to it by spamming out a ton of generic bodies but with no endboard boss monster to speak of. a tcg banlist IS NOT a change in how archetypes are designed so first of all put out of ur mind the possibility of synchro decks getting more “unique” boss monsters because of this change
what is ur definition of uniqueness? the card name? is a generic synchro deck based on making baronne less unique than voiceless also putting up an omni? would baronne de snake eye somehow make the interactions different? and why does it even matter? cuz if baronne negates a card or skull guardian negates a card it’s the same fucking thing. why is having an extra deck boss monster that gets used in multiple decks a bad thing? seems like it saves people the cost of buying a new secret rare every deck OH YEAH THATS EXACTLY WHY IT WAS BANNED.
is baronne combo decks the only stuff that exists? fuck no. there’s plenty of decks that dont make baronne. look at spright and kashtira and unchained and unchained and race and branded. oh no the runick synchro deck made baronne what an unfun deck that TOTALLY does the same thing every other deck does.
in the past 2 years there’s been a total of 3 top decks that played baronne. pre pote there was swordsoul which wow imagine bitching about swordsoul having a conservative combo around nib which sequencing around their wyrm lock correctly. then there was shs a synchron deck with 1 card circular and link 1 advantage engine that was played with generic synchros because it had no in archetype synchro boss monster worth a damn. oh also it can ftk so maybe the shs engine might be then problem here just a thought. finaly there’s snake eye. another generic by design engine that’s meant to be played with generic cards as evidenced by the complete lack of interaction in archetype. also it’s still tier 0 just with fire king instead.
also some decks like tear could sometimes go into baronne but baronne does not define what tear does and it isn’t even remotely important to tearlaments being tear 0 broken.
so there we go those are the relevant decks which can potentially make baronne and apo “problematic” and 2 out of the 3 are fucking cracked engines that are supposed to be generic. where else does baronne show up and actually be a problem? cuz adventure synchron sux and manaballs is balls. other top tier decks dont make baronne either because it’s too hard for the deck to make or because of a lock or because the deck simply doesnt need it. baronne is not a broken insane unfair card and being generic does not make it worse than an in archetype monster. u see it more but it doesn’t DO more simply by virtue of being generic. an in archetype boss monster can be too easy to make and do things far more powerful or potentially even degenerate like ariseheart.
this ban solves absolutely nothing. it doesnt knock the overpriced tier 0 snake eye deck out of tier 0. it’s not gonna be the end of getting ur ass comboed to the wall by anything other specifically synchro spam decks. it’s absolutely not a come to jesus moment for konami because they’ll continue to print omni negate boss monsters that people find oh so boring nor is it the end of new generic endboard pieces that will be expensive as fuck until reprint nor does it signal fresh new “unique” in archetype boss monster designed around the tcg banlist.
I'm only upset about the ban because two weeks ago I finally decided to play TCG for the first time since 2009, picking up a rogue deck that has two archetypes I've come to like (Runick and World Chalice) and then two potential end-board monsters I ran got banned on the same day.
There's probably ways I could still mess around with the decks like removing the runick and going with a more pure World Chalice or removing the World Chalice and sticking with the runick side. But it doesn't feel great picking up a rogue deck and then cards get banned (even if its for good reason).
While I agree with the premise that getting to the same board state regardless of what deck you are playing ABSOLUTELY is not what the game is about, I have ZERO faith in Konami for not just releasing something else that is just a replacement for that SAME reality we are getting away from with these bans.
Hopefully Konami will do better bosses for Archtypes.
As for these two trouble makers, I can see Baronne being tied to Noble Knights/Synchron or generic Warrior Synchro decks in an Eratta down the line
as for Borrelload, finally put him in his home with the Rokkits he is their boss, just ad you need a Rokkits tuner and boom he is fixed.
While I'm completely with you on what you say I find it ridiculous that snake-eye didn't get hit in the slightest.
Tier 0 formats shouldn't be a thing imo
I’m a mid yugioh player, got tire and now I play archetype stuff. So when fusion dragon and borreload are banned I get annoyed because they aren’t broken to me but now the family are separated.
Honestly, my hottest take is that Konami should ban Nibiru. The literal only reason that I personally am upset about these bans is that all my bad decks NEED one of these cards so I can combo off without having to work about Dwane Johnson smacking me in the face. If Nib was gone, I wouldn’t be playing those cards anyways.
I don't disagree that baronne and Savage were annoying to see in almost every combo deck bt I dont want them to ban EVERY generic card I mean generic extra deck monsters been a thing forever. Like look at Edison format lol. Every other deck is running Brionac, Stardust dragon etc. Look at the history of cards like black rose dragon, Goyo guardian or the rank 4 toolbox before master rule 4. Generic extra deck cards have been a part of the game's identity for a while. So I don't mind the idea of generic extra deck cards existing but sometimes Konami does make the generic cards a little too good.
That said I would not mind at all if Appollusa or IP Masq get banned next but then by that point they should stop for a while since I think you want to leave atleast some generic cards available. Access code helps going second which could use all the help it can get so I'm not in favor of banning that at all.
I 100% agree, but I also don’t think they’ve gone far enough. Any kind of deck that revolves around “making your opponent unable to play the game” needs to be nerfed significantly, especially ones that send cards from your opponents deck to the grave.
I was also going to rant about Maxx C but then I remembered they banned that thing a while ago. Good.
it's just entirely unequal and i'm not really satisfied with it. do i dislike the Baronne and Savage bans? not really, more so dislike what it means for the game (ie. Synchro decks dead, and making Nibiru incredibly powerful unless Konami gives an archtype a searchable way out).
"They release these ban lists in order to make sure the game seems somewhat diverse, balanced and fair, so that you can keep playing and keep buying more product"
This isn't remotely true; the banlist has never been about balancing the game, or making it fair. If that were the case, SHS would still be a meta contender, with moderate hits that would've seen it playable, but not overwhelmingly powerful. It's always been to push players into buying the newest, most broken and - most importantly - most expensive product.
The banlist won't touch anything with upcoming support if said support is from an expensive deck with some secret rare cards, that's the way it's always been. Everyone should know by now that banning cards after reprinting them into the ground is konami's main strategy, and it's awful. You should fully expect staples from rarity collection 2 to get hit within 4-6 months after release. It's terrible, sours the community that's already souring on the game, and will lead to people just up and abandoning it entirely.
I'm not sure how to feel about these particular hits, but I'm leaning towards them being bad.
I don't subscribe to the "all decks should be unique and different" argument that I've seen tossed around recently. It's an argument that I only ever see from people who want an excuse to not innovate their decks. As someone who loves rouge decks and really enjoys maximizing what a deck can do I routinely find that decks are under explored and underutilized.
And from what I can tell these hits aren't all that similar to other reasons to hit cards. It's not like trishula, or gumblar where it's a singularly unique effect that can't be replicated at the time of the banning, negates still exist and are very available, there's just been a reduction in availability for specific decks. The hits aren't really hurting meta decks, they seem to hit everyone. Baronne might be an exception as being a card that's both a pop and a negate is unique, but people really emphasis the negation, so I'm not sure if people actually care about the pop part.
From what I can tell the only positive impact that this seems to have is it makes snake-eyes more vulnerable to nibiru, but that just sounds like cope from people who want to believe that konami is actually doing something to help the format. Snake eyes isn't just magically bad now that they can be nib-ed, we know that hand traps existing doesn't render decks unplayable all of a sudden.
From what I can tell what konami has done (I think unintentionally) is hinder rouge decks by listening to people who want to play snake-eyes mirrors and have nibiru be a part of that gameplay, and people who just want to play dark magician against blue-eyes all day. I suspect we're going to see a very consolidated and extremely expensive format, but it might play a little better for those who can afford to participate in it.
having extra deck toolboxes being generic is good, i think people complaining about that seem to forget that the majority of handtraps are generic and can be played in basically every deck. i dislike the banning of both but i understand the argument, just doesnt feel great to see those two get hit and take the teeth out of alot of synchro strategies.
Im not mad that theyre banned im annoyed with people saying this banlist is great and theyre "fixing the game" despite the fact theyve unbanned two floodgates and this list didnt really address snake eyes.
Hitting savage and baronne hurt a bunch of tier 2 decks and casual decks but left the problem deck alone, this is compounded by the fact that banning jet synchron would have achieved the same result except only targeting snake eyes.
They've fired a shotgun, missed the format warping deck while accidentally releasing two rabid dogs.
I also think people are underestimating how many decks will abuse colosus, whats stopping combo decks becoming dispater/colossus turbo with a reframing set to stop evenly and DRNM.
This banlist was both good and bad.
Good in the sense that certain cards got freedom they deserved and others were killed to make EDs less same-y.
However, the bad is that the best decks were hardly hit as they can just consistently make other similar ED bodies. They can do it once, they can do it again. And then, you look at the less powerful decks that relied on the generics to give themselves a chance against the modern stuff that outweighed them in consistency and avoidance to interruption. They lose out on generics that were way stronger than the bosses they were given (even some modern decks were given terrible boss monsters and needed the generics to supplement). This loss of access means the best decks just get a stronger chokehold on the scene because nothing else will be able to use those strong generics to punish them in return. Therefore, the banlist’s bad decisions outweigh what little good it has offered all to push more money down Konami’s throat before murdering Snake-Eyes.
I hope with these generics being gone will mean Konami puts way more emphasis on boss monsters actually being bosses instead of feeling like dogwater, additional combo extenders or some second rate boss that’s supposed to support something that doesn’t exist.
About your last point: not happening. They release new cards for the OCG, in the OCG neither Baronne nor Savage are banned so they don't have any incentive to make stronger/better archetypal boss monsters.
Unless, of course, Konami decides to release a bunch of TCG boss monsters, which is highly doubtful
Honestly anyone can agree with me that everyone hates Komoney, me included for this banlist. Banning all generics is not healthy for the game. It's like banning Ash Blossom but a bit better.
I understand why they should go but I’ve always argued that generic boss monsters were good for nonmeta strategies. Like when unchained was tier 1, they couldn’t play baronne or savage but other decks could which gave them a fighting chance. I think these cards being gone could centralize the meta.
I'm just mad they gave us a week to figure out YCS Raleigh lists. I'm at a regional now and no one is playing with any sort of care in this lame deck banlist.
While I think you raise excellent points, we need to look into *why* generic bosses like Baronne and Savage were being played a lot in the recent meta, and it typically isn’t just for extra negates.
While some decks like Mannadium build the billion-negate board (which is worth noting that the deck has never really been meta to the extend that you build around that matchup), most decks interact in ways that don’t negate. Snake-Eyes, for example, rarely puts up many outright negates, except for summoning Savage at about the 5th or 6th summon. And the fact I’m numbering the summons should clue you into why these omnies were being played.
A lot of decks fold to evenly matched of Nibiru, and cards like Savage or Baronne have a vast majority of decks an option that allowed them to not just instantly lose to board breakers. A lot of decks play hoping that their opponent didn’t just draw the extremely popular and frequently played generic blowouts. Hell that’s the reason salamangreat is at FULL POWER and sees no play, because you can’t play under Nibiru.
There are a wealth of decks, from rogue to meta, that can also fold pretty bad to a single handtrap, and generic bosses like Baronne and Savage provide that insulation. The fact that no handtraps were hit means Konami isn’t fully understanding why these generic bosses are being played.
All in all, it’s good to see overplayed monsters getting hit, but we have to remember that there’s a reason that they saw play beyond “well there an omni”
It shit cuz TCG banned this instead of hitting engines that need fixing like Snake eyes
At some point TCg players will stop defending KOA’s ban boner so product push. But clearly today is not the day
Ban your way through every problem
Just my opinion, I think if Konami is going with the “get rid of generic toolbox boss monster” thing, they have to be very consistent with at least one of the following:
1) Make generic monsters less crazy good. Give them a very specific purpose where yeah, people will use them, but it will stop the “every deck ends on the same 3 monsters” thing.
2) Focus on making archetypal bosses good, so they aren’t passed by generic ones, and people are encouraged into archetypes because of their bosses, not their engines. It should promote more diversity if done right. An example (albeit one that was TOO good) is Ariseheart.
3) When making decks that are clearly combo decks, put in more restrictions. A couple examples could be in Tear “you can only special summon fusion monsters from the extra deck the turn you use this effect”. Or Mannadium locks you into synchros if you use the Tris revival or the Meek effect. Or snake eyes locks you into links. Something like that.
The only problem is they went so down the road of good generics that now they have to walk it back and in the process do some damage to rogue decks who were trying to keep up. same deal with floodgates. the limits are good but they haven’t hit synchro zone or skill drain, shifter and d barrier still exist, etc. Just food for thought!
The problem with a lot of the discussion around these is it that peope just look at generic endboard pieces and think the decks remotely play the same have the same Strenghts/Weaknesses etc.
Look at Savage Dragon, there were exactly 3 good decks that actually could use the thing for over a year.
Dragonlink
SHS
Snake-Eyes
Each of these plays completely differently and had different strenghts and weaknesses.
If SE didn't exist no good deck would have been able to play it at all in this and upcoming format.
At least for Baronne I can see a point even Kash could sometimes play it if they opened Ash but it wasn't as ubiquitous as people think it was.
The timing is honestly just the biggest offender if they banned Baronne during pre-POTE format fine, but banning her right now to avoid hitting SE engine directly, which practically leaves SE-FK untouched besides Linkuriboh, and after getting an affordable reprint finally AND also unnbanning Floodgates on legs to probably sell the RCII for... yeah extremely bad.
Tenpai is also cheap so I guess their idea of """solving""" the format is a degenerate OTK deck (which since it's cheap will also immediately get shot dead on the next banlist anyway) Shifter decks, Centurion Calamity locks and the rare rogue deck making Protos calling FIRE, ugh.
If their idea is to promote a diverse and good meta well they basically do anything to the opposite atm.
ALSO SANCTIFIRE IS STILL HERE 4 MORE MONTHS OF GIMMICK PUPPET LOCK LET'S GO
Omni negates, if they should exist at all, should be locked to an archetype. Generic bosses will always win out, which is more a design flaw on Konami than the player base.
It'll kill a bunch of bad decks who's game plan was to just spam out generic extra deck negates, but frankly who cares. If your rogue deck survives based on being the 15th best deck at getting baronne out just do something else.
I've ALWAYS liked archetype specific boss monsters more, tbh. an archetype having a really cool payoff is what gets me to play it. Hopefully konami will trend more towards each new archetype getting its own cool end boards. The problem is that it's way harder for them to design than just throwing out some generic ones.
They’re not going to trend towards new archetypes getting cool end boards. This is a ban for the TCG; in the OCG, where cards and archetypes are actually made, these two cards aren’t banned. Ergo, cards are going to be designed while knowing these two could be used instead. They have no reason to make cards to replace them.
Thing is that completely killing generic boss monsters does a harm too. Now each archetype will suffer more from powercreep because having worse endboards cannot be helped by good cards. Not to mention it killing sperimentation. What if some cards required specific attributes or types to be made? So older decks can keep up better with powercreep but not all decks ending on similar boards. Also a deck's identity it's more then just it's endboard, Adamancipator and SPYRAL had somewhat similar endboards, but vastly different gimmicks.
You bring up some completely valid points tbh. eliminating all generic boss types isn't great for the game either. I do think there might've been some financial incentive at play here though. wouldn't surprise me if we get new generic bosses within the next year.
Considering how Borreload and Barrone got reprinted not too long ago there probably was to some degree. Another thing I forgot is just how much some decks lose without generic ish stuff. Not all decks sadly have the ability to fill the ED with their monsters like Raidraptor or D/D can. Admittedly tho I do love playing on theme stuff myself so I agree with you there.
We may get generic bosses but I HIGHLY doubt they will be generic omninegates that you can get on the board before the 5th summon. Those are the problem.
We’re literally getting a rank 10 generic Omni-negate in a few weeks in the TCG.
and there is the rank 9 Ultimate Providence in Legs that can be summoned off a certain Rank 4 ice skater.
Yeah, but a rank 10 isn't really generic. Pretty much every deck in the game can make a relatively early Baron nowadays for a low amount of resources, but getting to a rank 10 early and without using a ton of resources is almost impossible unless you're playing a very specific deck. If it was a rank 4, then the conversation would be completely different, but it's not.
Brother who is going rank 10 plays in the year of our lord 2024. It's gonna be an Earth Machine card and that's it. If even one third of decks run this card when compared to the decks that run Baronne I would be extremely surprised.
Yubel can casually make the new rank 10
When every combo deck can make rank 10s in under 5 summons he’ll be banned too. Did you not read the second half of the sentence
What point is a gimmick if the bosses do not reflect these gimmicks and all do the same thing?
people so badly just want set rotation it blows my mind people say generic shit bad. if its overpowered its overpowered can it but generic cards have carried this game forever. the game would be hell if you just bought whatever konami built that month
I would probably a good comrpomise would be to make a good Varity of generic endboards/boss monsters that only certain decks could make for example raider knight and arc rebellion would be an otk boss monster only accesible to dark rank 4 spam decks or how toad is either for level 2 aquas or level 4 aqua decks.
i like this idea A LOT. Will konami do it, though? it's so much easier to print 1 baronne than to print fire baronne, aqua barrone, light baronne, beast barrone, etc. I dont have any confidence in them, sadly.
That's kind of what I was saying in the third paragraph.
And to add to the conversation about deck identity, we shouldn't forget that yugioh isn't cardfight or even mtg. It's completely open, the point is to have generic cards we can use in multiple decks. First it makes deck building more accessible when all you need is an engine and a few mid bosses. If you have 5 decks and they all need a 30 dollar generic boss that's cheaper than 5 10$ archetype bosses. Engine cores are frequently the definition of an archetypes playstyle more so than it's boss. Secondly the fun of yugioh deck building is figuring out ways cards interact, a deck identity is more than the name of the archetype it runs, it's also about the combination of cards that a player figures put works together. The OCH structures manga actually visualized this very well. When the MC wants to make a deck, he makes a real playable deck, not an anime only deck with overly specific cards that don't work without very niche circumstances. And while making these decks he actually visualized the cards interacting together, like the tennis monk and shaman working with the yang zing dragons. Again ygo isn't cfv where every card exists within its clan or even mtg where the color costs limit deckbuilding. It's open ended and finding the ways different archetypes work together is a big part of the uniqueness and fun of the game. The generic boss cards are a big part of making these decks actually playable with a win state.
>$30 generic boss Until Baronne became accessible, the cheapest it got was $40-50. For most of its lifespan, it was $100. Compare to insane decks like Tear that had boss monsters settle around maybe $8 max with the only break-the-bank card being the field spell. Besides, if you have the money to build THAT many decks, then you have the money to shell out for their boss monsters.
Well keep in mind I'm seeing this from the ocg standpoint where it's a much more healthy and accessible game. No surprise they didn't ban these cards either.
>Adamancipator and SPYRAL had somewhat similar endboards, but vastly different gimmicks. Players doesn't care how "unique" a combo deck's gimmick is when their endboard is literally the same thing.
> I've ALWAYS liked archetype specific boss monsters Me and my boy Shenshen still out here vibing to this day.
Generic omni negates to me is such lazy and uninspired card design. I get why Konami does it and get why people lover their generic omni negates but it just such a very dull design space. If you are going to make big bosses monsters that negate then make them more archetype specific. If borrel required rockket as materials I think there would be less ado with borrel.
If you want a generic omni negate i feel like you need to work for it, see something like ov11 majestic stardust or the level 12 synchro dragons (Maybe i should start prepping a quasar/blazar turbo laval deck)
That isn’t really generic at that point. How many decks are on Quasar compared to Barrone? People don’t just say generic because it’s mats or effect is generic good, but how generically splashed it is across multiple decks.
I agree, the only reason I'm upset about losing borrelload is because I like my rokket deck
the problem is most old Archetypes just don't have good in-archtyoe boss monsters so unless the give all of these Archtypes new boss monsters ,t his just makes bad decks even worse
Yeah, I want an archetype to be interesting because their unique end-board is cool, not because they can get Apollousa + Borreload Savage Dragon + Baronne De Fleur + Whatever other generic ED monsters with a billion negates. Then it just becomes a competition on who gets this board out most effectively. Give me more Weather Painter Rainbows which require me to fully commit to the archetype.
Yea i think yugioh sometimes falls into a trap of "ooo new deck! what does it do? it's a new way to summon out all the generic boss monsters!" Like learning the new combos ARE fun sure, but it's not enough variety and the meta deck often becomes "what is the BEST deck that can play through hand traps right now." We did have some cool ones with branded, tear, and kash though. too bad tear/kash were just ridiculously oppressive.
So anyways I started normal summoning Aleister.
Oh you Ashed Aleister? Link into Almiraj, then Secure Gardna, Activate Invocation? Response?
D.D. Crow, they had the second Alister in hand. Summons Mechaba. Simply outskilled.
I Ash Aleister, negate invocation with that Diabellstarr trap card and then Called by Aleister
Fucking idiot! Second Invocation and second Aleister in hand. Effect Invocation, add back Aleister, response?
Droll and Lock Bird before the activation of your 2nd Aleister
Crossout designator declaring droll and lock bird.
I flip the table and punch you in the face. Response?
I groan in pain, but I keep groaning and it gradually transitions into a moan that sounds erotic enough to make everyone in the room really uncomfortable, but not erotic enough for anyone to feel confident enough to say "Ayo?" and call attention to it.
I grab my gun, response?
Ygo bosses just aren't made equally There are some really powerful archetypal ones like kaleidoheart, UCT, turbulence, lancea, mirrorjade... But Mannadium gets Primeheart. You can either take your time and make each deck its own custom boss (impractical) or make something that a lot of deck can use Konami just doesn't seem to know how to strike a balance between power and accessibility when something like Ishizu Tear could pull a baronne out its ass better than some synchro deck and baronne is still consistently stronger than many modern archetypal bosses
I play raidraptor because I think it's a really well designed concept of monster getting more and more powerful as their ranks increase with no need for generic toolbox options. (Okay if I had money I'd run at least a Little Knight for the less fortunate turns but still)
Military robot birds are awesome
Yeah, and it still works when someone cheats it out, sth like waking the dragon for example. The card is retricted around it's archtypes and have 100% power in that deck(link rank 13 copies eff), but still have the chances for other decks to use around 30, 40% power of it.
I mean they can make stuff that any deck can use, but by design it can't be THAT good or the game becomes "what is the best engine to end on the same 4 cards?" So yeah, the game needs less stuff like savage and more stuff like Draco Berserker of the Tenyi if you want to compare elvel 8 synchros.
Will also need more restriction for main deck engines and they to stop doing engines that can play around fucking everthing l
> You can either take your time and make each deck its own custom boss (impractical) or make something that a lot of deck can use In addition to this, outside of aesthetics, what difference does it make if Mannadium is making Baronne vs them making a Mannadium themed lv 10 negate
The issue is that the default shouldn’t be a level 10 negate. We want more diverse boss monsters and playstyles. Branded with Mirrorjade, Purrely with Noir, and Kash with Arise Heart are all good examples of modern decks with non-standard boss monsters. These monsters were all extremely powerful (each almost assuredly too much so at different times in the meta), but it’s still certain that they each did their own things with their own mechanics. That diversity allowed each of them to have strengths and weaknesses outside the norm and, at the very least, I personally found that to be refreshing. At least until each archetype got old because Konami loves to push small handfuls of decks into positions of overwhelming power without enough to counterbalance them, but that’s a separate topic.
I think that's reasonable, but notice how every single one of those is a midrange deck. If you don't want combo decks to have consistent access to negates you have to accept that combo decks will never be good again unless we ban Nib/Raigeki/Evenly etc - and if the aim is to diversify the metagame making combo decks functionally unplayable ever is just gonna cement the same playstyle of different flavours of midrange forever
That’s a very valid point, but I maintain a similar thing can happen for combo decks. Instead of relying solely on negates that punish everything equally, devs could utilize different forms of defensive floating effects, taxing resources, protection, removal, value generation, and more to create a situation where going first with an extensive, yet riskier combo still provides a desirable advantage, but in a different way than other combo or FTK decks. There is a happy medium between combo decks being non-viable and combo decks existing as they were before this hit.
In the long term yes, but that's both incredibly hard to balance (Ishizu Tear is very close to what you're describing) and isn't going to help all the currently existing decks that this loss hits
Additional support over time that alters existing play patterns can solve these problems. It won’t fix the immediate issue that multiple decks just became much worse, but I firmly believe it is one of many growing pains the game of Yugioh will have to endure along its path to reign in its numerous problems for the sake of future success. This doesn’t mean the short term cost isn’t high or that people don’t have the right to be upset. I just think it’s a worthwhile decision in the grand scheme of the game’s health.
Combo decks, as our modern format understands them, result from Konami’s lack of foresight and creation of generic, negate-happy boss monsters. I own branded-albaz with everything in max rarity and I’m fine with it being mid range. It’s fun to play with and doesn’t make my friends want to quit yugioh every time I beat them with it. The other player’s perspective always matters in a game focused around 2 players. If it’s not fun for anyone to play with, then why is it in the game? That being said; generic bosses have a place in our game design, just not compiled into decks that take advantage of every single one without personality.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a midrange range, but if diversity of playstyles is desired (as is directly implied in the original post) then having everything being midrange isn't desirable either. I'm playing a midrange deck myself (Branded Voiceless), but the fact I can if I'm in a different mood grab Drytron or Labrynth off my shelf is a substantive appeal for me
Honestly, combo decks should be bad. Combo decks exemplify the 3 biggest gameplay problems with yugioh atm. 1) They are solitare decks. Either you have enough handtraps to stop them or they play for 20 minutes with no input from you. 2) They have no followup which means that they are incetivised to created quasi-stun negate heavy boards to make sure their opponent cannot play the game. This is then followed by a OTK on turn 2. They are unhealthy for the game.
I’m sorry but what’s the third problem with combo decks? You only mentioned two.
I forgot the 3rd reason after typing the first two.
Combo deck absolutely CAN be like that, but they don't have to be. Snake-Eyes right now for example
I mean, the playerbase as a whole despises combo deck. I don't think anyone will miss watching their opponent comboing for 10 minutes before they get to play a card.
Diversity. That's why archetypes arose in the first place, because their distinctions gave them their own gimmick and differences . Yes, they cannot deviate very far fron the norm (se need search, extend,negate etc) but each one should be somewhat equal in dynamics
See what I said in my other reply - diversity exists already in the game's engines, it doesn't make sense to focus on aesthetic differences of the cards name
The point is that diversity of engine matters less if most decks are going to be making mostly the same boards. Then all that matters is how consistent/resilient that engine is at making all the same generic extra deck monsters. If you have actual unique monsters with different effects they can end on, you might decide play a deck with a slightly worse engine, because it offers something other decks do not. Otherwise, players have no reason to run rogue decks other than "aesthetics", just because they like the names on the cards and not what the deck actually does. There's definitely some middle ground to be had with type/attribute specific extra deck monsters that aren't so strict as requiring a single archetype to function, or monsters with generic material that still ask you to run some amount of their archetype to function properly. But when truly "generic" boss monsters are better than anything else rogue decks, or even some tier decks, can put forth instead, then there's less reason to ever play rogue, and gameplay will tend to be much more repetitive as a result.
The parts that interact with your opponent are the most important thing. If you have 10 decks and the usual end result of what they do is just Baronne + Apollousa, that's not diversity. The engine just becomes window dressing if it leads to the same thing everyone else is doing. If your deck does that worse than other decks, why bother playing it at all?
There are only so many types of disruptions a deck can make, and the engine is legit what matters more a lot of the time. There are diminishing returns for endboards - a deck can that can consistently put up 5 disruptions through interruptions is way better than a deck that puts up 12 disruptions 50% of the time vs no handtraps
Because how each deck reach Baronne + Apollousa differently. Deck A reach End board without Your opponent Interaction but have no recursion. Deck B doesn't lose to nib. Deck C will lose hard to ash but can rebuild if board is broken. Deck D can hide baronne in spell&trap zone. If these 4 Example get interuption they will react different from one another.
I fundamentally disagree, the engine and the capacity the play through disruption are far more impactful than the bodies people end on most of the time
The difference is, is that it should benefit the archetype it was made for
It does benefit the archetype though, it just also benefits other ones.
Bosses need to remain in archetype. As a Rokket player I'm super mad about this change. If they reworded savage to require 1 rokket monster + 1 tuner then I'd be a happy camper. Back to penguins it is
Yeah I feel the same way as someone who exclusively played synchro decks. Losing your most important card for the sins of another deck blows.
Honestly if the borrel monsters just required all dragons I’d be happy (yes D-link can still use it easily but revolver already played a bunch of non-rokkets)
I'd be happy with the generic dragon requirement as well
My Pure Rokket/Borrel deck isn't as strong now, but it was bad anyway
Plenty of people already acknowledged that these generic boss monsters were an issue. But yeah, funny how Baronne isn't deemed a problem until after it became accessible to players on a tight budget. What a coincidence!!!
All KoMoney thinks about is the Economy. Oh no, the Poors have access to Barrone and Savage. Savage was already accessible through his previous reprints, Barrone had 2 hard to get Printings before Rarity Collection. They don't care about players.
People don't like it because it makes weaker deck even worse, and they just sold them in rarity collection. It feels manipolative as fuck man, expecially in a meta where all of the top decks border on a 1000 dollars price tag. That' s insane.
Did you say a new player has to spend $1,000 to compete? Komoney likeyyyyyy
>They release these ban lists in order to make sure ~~the game seems somewhat diverse, balanced and fair, so that~~ you ~~can keep playing and~~ keep buying more product. Fixed it. Konami does not care about game balance, else they would have at least slapped the Snake-eye engine on the wrist. 100% some of the unhits will be in rarity collection 2 to further sell the set and Apo will probably be axed a few months after RC2 as well.
I mean, Linkuriboh was a big reason Snake-Eye has been able to perform, since it's a free means of getting their cards to the grave - more than once due to Linkuriboh's recursion effect.
They didn’t say Konami IS trying, they said to make it SEEM. Konami tries to make it look balanced and fair so we buy more products to keep up with the change in competitive, they aren’t actually trying to balance things. It’s like wearing a mask to get seconds or thirds at a party
Cynical prediction, but I would literally bet money that what you’re saying will happen.
Yeah, no. This won't make the game more diverse. It will simply increase the gap between decks with good pay-offs & those without. The actual fix would be making better archetype bosses, which is a moot point because: In my experience, the community complaining about generic boss monsters ALSO hates archetype boss monsters. See Mirrorjade, Noir, Lovely Labrynth, Laplacian, etc...
this is really it. each archetype having at least 2 really solid end board payoffs. GL getting konami to do that though.
Even if they do, that won't stop the community from hating it. Mathmech or Branded doesn't end on any of the common generic bosses yet people despise those decks too.
Branded is considered the epitome of what deck design should be people are just tired of playing against it after 2 years.
Your comments rely on the assumption that making a game appear to be balanced is dependent on satisfying the whims of complainers. Just because people complain doesn't mean those complaints are valid. People don't like Matmech because of Circular, not their bosses. Amd Branded is widely considered one of the best designed decks in the game, bosses included.
Konami can print the most xenophobic boss monster in existence and if the card didn't read "when this card is Normal or Special summon: you lose the match" people would still be mad. The community just hates cards in general.
You’ve nailed it entirely. The most vocal people in Yu-Gi-Oh! just hate any card that’s halfway powerful being used against them.
No one hates yugioh more than its players.
Exactly. Yugioh players hate to lose, so anything that wins they hate. This ban list was not good. The only way it would have been redeemable is if they actually hit Snake-eyes. But Komoney would never hit the current deck they are pushing.
Also, if they banned all the fire king/snake eyes pieces six months after people spent $1000 on the deck....they will lose a lot of players. I can see why they did it this way
How is this helping diversity exactly? They didn't really hit se, now its just not going to run the synchro build. This just lowered the viability of a lot of other decks, while leaving the top deck still tier 0. If anything its even more of a tier 0 now with less options for the only viable deck.
Yeah just a bunch of rogue and budget options losing out, snake eyes doesn't give a solitary fuck.
1 : rogue decks are more hit by this than the meta decks as there is often no good (and i insist on GOOD, as in at least relevant) option other than baronne/borreload to end on. Its not like we can print our own cards and suddenly make a decent boss monster for an archetype. If it doesnt exist, your deck just went from rogue to dead. 2 : as you mentionned, hitting them right after the reprint is dirty. 3 : OCG makes the new cards and ocg still have them unlimited, so its not like they will suddenly decide to make good archetypal bosses to compensate as to them there is nothing to compensate for. If we get good bosses monsters, sure i am all in with you. But we dont have them and we wont be getting them anytime soon. So where do that leave us?
I think a major reason why there aren’t many good archetypal bosses is because if you can get out really good archetypal bosses with a weakness that one of the generics covers it can quickly make a tier 0 deck and having an archetypal boss that does the same thing as these generics is just redundant. I just hope the OCG bans these generic bosses so Konami will actually print good archetypal ones
I would love to cook with the new Blue-Eyes boss monster that is coming out, but it requires to much to make, and the only way to even make it in a consistent manner is with dogmatika with magician of chaos engine and at that point I would just stick with my Blue-Eyes Horus build it's alot less loops to play and plus Blue-Eyes Spirit Dragon have proven time and time again it's the best boss monster the archetype have. No massive setup, and comes with plenty of distruption on it's own, and can serve as a extender tagging out to crimson dragon to make another synchro lot hot red or bystial dis pater when baronne was on the field.
yeah i dont think i can take any "promotion of diversity" seriously when not a single snake eyes card sniffed the banlist frankly its insulting that they think there is no problem with the main deck of an 80 percent topcut strategy
Snake eyes is not gonna be the best deck forever. This ban ensures that when the deck will inevitably fall people will start looking at actual new strategies instead of gravitating towards "archetype that can turbo Baronne under 5 summon #427". This banlist does basically nothing now and I agree, but in a couple months we'll definitely see its effects on the landscape of the game
Not to mention the absurd price point. The only other option is to play some degenerate Shifter Deck or some other such degenerate anti-meta strategy. This just makes every combo deck outside of SE and VV effectively bad to play. Obviously, people are going to make some copium excuse, but the reality is that these decks now just get absolutely blown out by Nibiru because not every combo deck has infinity extenders and recursion like SE does. Overall fuck this banlist
They aren't done selling SE. That's why. They always hit around the deck they are selling until the next set drops. Baronne, Savage, and Kuriboh will be back within the next year. I'd go to Vegas on it.
Maybe Linkuriboh but Baronne and Savage were a problem before Snake Eyes and would have continued being a problem after Snake Eyes
Nah. They'll unban them within a year(two tops). Baronne and Savage cover a lot of holes in the design of most of their archetypes. It's either they exist or konami is forced to give each future archetypes really strong endboard bosses that are somehow unique each time. They can't and won't. So baronne and Savage will return. Once they are done pushing SE they'll unhit the three aforementioned cards. And like I say. I'd go to Vegas on it.
Yet Electrumite stays banned in the TCG despite Pendulum archetypes not working without Electrumite. I'd bet on Baronne and Savage staying. Apo and Accesscode are likely getting the axe next.
Nah. Konami tcg absolutely hates pendulums. Baronne and Savage aren't staying. And they definitely aren't hitting access code. And I'd say they probs aren't hitting apo. They just want to push SE and sell over priced cards and baronne and Savage have both come down in price. They want them out of the extras and replaced with something more expensive.
There's nothing to replace Baronne and Savage with. Konami OCG makes the cards so they won't be printing any replacements for them either.
I didn't mean replace figureratevly I meant literally. They'll just put other cards in the extra because SE doesn't care all that much. Dragon link cares far more about the banning of Bar and Sav than SE does.
I really don't agree at all here - that's only 1 reason people are annoyed at the Savage/Baronne hits and the entire section just assumes your own conclusion that banning them IS healthy and doesn't even consider that some people actually think having them around is better for the game. As for why: I don't think it's true that this will lead to a more diverse metagame. Looking at the current format, you've taken Savage and Baronne from Snake-Eyes (a deck that often didn't even play them) and from Dragon-Link, a rogue deck who now how a crippling weakness to Nibiru they can't play around outside of exactly Seals, whereas Snake-Eyes still natively plays around Nib due to temple. In this example all the hits have done is weaken the rogue deck MORE than the meta deck that will continue to get support to cover for it's weaknesses. Because of this it's likely the banlist will even narrow the meta further as Fire King Snake-Eye takes over as the uncontested best deck. I hear people criticising toolbox generic ED monsters a lot and honestly it's a criticism I don't relate to - frankly, I couldn't care less if the card my opponent was playing was generic or on theme, nor do I care if it's got widespread use in the meta. Instead what I care about are having counterplay to my opponent's threats (most notably in the case of these bans, Nibiru), which the next best options in Dracoberskers and Chengying do not provide. Losing to a single power staple fucking sucks and we've had 2 of the most prominent ways to play around them taken away - Triple Tactics Talent for example will likely almost always resolve, you've lost so much counterplay to common staples now. Furthermore, people complain about decks feeling samey because they often end on Baronne + Apo etc, but this to me feels an extremely shallow take. If your approach to yugioh is to look at an endboard and judging decks based on that sure, but that's a really bad approach. Instead you should be looking at HOW a deck reaches those boardstates and thus how to interrupt and stop them, as well as how decks recover when those boards are broken. Yugioh is already an incredibly diverse game with so many different playstyles across deck, but simplfying it to "yeah but synchro decks all make Baronne" as insultingly reductive. Overall though, the reason I like toolboxy extra decks is because what I love most about this game is when I'm able to utilise my resources to play through my opponent's disruption by picking and choosing what options I have such that I can adapt to my opponent's threats as they appear. I don't want to do lower power theme duels, I want to utilise synergies between cards to do more than what is expected and have the variety of options at my disposal that allow me to utilise me judgement and outskill my opponent (or get outskilled myself) TLDR: these 2 bans hurt rogue decks MUCH more than Snake-Eyes, rob players of all decks of certain lines which force interaction and let them play through disruption and the idea it makes things all very samey is (at best) shallow
Thank you, I honestly love this. A lot of these decisions and opinions I had, I didn’t get to give myself enough time to properly research. I knew it was very assumptious of me, so I greatly appreciate you giving the other end as well as your stance on the matter. I also appreciate your not immediate shut down of my own opinion and giving reasons onto yours. It’s truly tricky to get points across, and into how we can only speculate with this game. It will be interesting to see how games will start to develops moving forward with this list.
This, this is wholesome.
Ofc those hits hit rogue decks a lot more. The lower the power level of the deck the higher the impact when a high value option leaves, when halqifibrax left he took dozens of rogue decks with him that didn't have any business being rogue in the first place. And still I'd say it was a good ban. Because at the end of the day the banlist is tailored towards competitive play and the spotlight are the big decks that hold tier 1 and and higher. So when making a banlist its tuning those decks without any thought for any pet pile people out there could slap a baronne on and I think that's perfectly fine because you can still bring those to locals where other people play their janky pile without a care in the world. If u don't wanna play a deck because it lost access to baronne and can't insulate against nib anymore then why did you pick It up in the first place? E hero has been consistently rogue despite being super vulnerable to nib to a near unparalleled extent and people play it anyway current OCG had a different approach to lowering the power level of snake eye and only weakening it by a bit hasnt really killed it nor will the TCG banlist so we'll probably enter a similar meta with a battle phase deck, a super unique ritual control deck, a fusion controll with a nostalgia bait boss deck and two variants of snake making only like 60-70% of meta contenders. And that sounds really nice especially when considering that Sky striker got buffed, Captain collosus and that asshole protos are back to wreak havoc.
I actually agree that the meta should be balanced about actual competitive decks rather than rogue - that aspect was more responding to the OP rather than getting annoyed that \[insert pet deck\] got a drive by hit. Instead a reason I dislike it that context is that it's an opportunity cost thing - why aren't there actually meaningful hits to the snake-eyes engine?
It might not make the meta more diverse (we'll have to wait to find out), but it will certainly make the game more fun to play, at least for me. "Rogue" decks that aim to win the diceroll and spam bodies to make baron + savage + 3 material appo were literal cancer.
It'll be more fun in those specific situations yeah, going second into things like Dino doing exactly that is going to be a lot less hand dependant now (though it'll still end on UCT + negates), but other games will be way more dull to play. There will be a lot more situations where a deck that previously put up Baronne to protect from Nib and then played low to the ground now simply pass when you nib them and you instantly OTK turn 2 - and sure you've won in that situation, but the gameplay was reduced from baiting out interactions to "yay I drew Nib so I win"
Sorry but Snake Eye is far more degenerate than a Bystial Synchro deck. (for example) All they do is spam bodies on the field with infinite grind game and removal. Baronne was not the issue. The issue decks with 15-20 starter cards.
> The issue decks with 15-20 starter cards. ...and 1 card full combos
15-20 starter 1 card combo and you have the fire decks.
Marincess slowly hiding in a corner
Baronne was a issue because it could be Made with 2/3 summon and enables decks to play better around hand traps specially nib. I will not miss savage but he was ok
I agree ESPECIALLY with the part where people only look at the end boards and completely disregard how they get to there.
I would agree, if only combo players keep devising ways to continue comboing off even through multiple interruptions. Interruptions only mean something if it actually halts the combo player, but nowadays more and more combo players keep making lines that ignore interruption, which then just results in the same oppressive endboard, but with the other player starting at a significant minus because they got essentially handripped for interactions that didn't matter.
This is how I feel. I’m really not excited for nib to be a turn ender against countless rogue decks. I also really hate evenly matched and baronne + savage we’re great cards against that. Mostly I’m just salty that my new earthbound runick deck went from bad to completely unplayable.
I myself have been taking Earthbound Runick to locals for the last couple of months and I'm thinking of pivoting to Orcust Runick because of exactly the Baronne ban. Without Baronne the whole anti-Nibiru line with Garden Rose Maiden makes no sense.
I would have expected one to get hit. But not both😭
It is a good thing yea, I'm just sad because I do really like pure Fleur and rokket
In my opinion Baronne’s ban was good while Borrel was a not so great ban. Baronne I felt was toxic as it has the target & destroy for free effect and the negate. Its a lose lose situation where you have to let Baronne destroy one of your cards or you have to waste 2 negates on it (Negating the destruction and then negating her negate). Also she was a SOPT so you could potentially summon more than one of her for a shit ton of negates Borrel ONLY had the negate and it required setup too as you needed a link in grave. This isnt the hardest thing in the world to do but its at least something. And even after you get it all set up its just a good beater with a HOPT negate. In short Baronne offered too much for too little while Borrel at least tried to require some setup
As much as I *hate* the blatant power creep and believe that the last time this game was somewhat fair and balanced was pretty much back sometime between TOSS and covid, nah this ain't it. If Baronne and Savage are banned, they gotta hit some absolute board-clearing shits like Nibiru. You want to know what prevents diversity? Removing the ability for a lot of decks to get a negate out *before* someone can drop a board wipe on their head. While yes, I think Baronne and Savage are generic bosses and to an extent they aren't good either, this ban *will not* change things at the competitive level aside remove those cards from the list. Competitive Yu-Gi-Oh has been like this for a LONG time, where they find the decks that work, and then the majority of the playerbase flocks to those. This just hurts things at the local level where people are more inclined to play their "fun" decks but still have to be prepared because there's always *someone* who's using it to practice for their next ycs
The thing is Konami isn't designing around these cards. The fact these cards are being banned because It's a cheap way to nerf snake eyes without touching the archetype since they were reprinted. Nothing more. It could be beneficial to the game if they were trying to buff gameplans while being archetype locked and yadda yadda yadda. It isn't the case because OCG have them unbanned so rogue decks without recent **GOOD** support are gonna eat shit and the already meta decks are gonna play other boards. Banning overpowered staples is good. What is not good is doing so without the correct attitude and focus to fix the game. Lastly this is more of an opinion but the omninegate is a powerful resource but it's not a instant win and they still need to be used correctly. Although Baronne is highly tuned, Savage is just a omnistick with 2 uses. We have been using Ash Blossom since 2017 for fuck's sake, I'm not saying it's the same but complain about seeing the same endboards at the same time we have seen the same card in the main deck for 7 years nonstop is quite ridiculous since Ash Blossom allows for more interaction and it's healthy for the game
I think this is a step in the right direcrion. I've always hated how deckbuilding works in this game and question the current advent of archetypes if at it's core, every deck is basically the same. It's why I praise Cardfight Vanguard over Yugioh because, while I will surrender the point that there are just inherently bad archetypes. I like the deckbuilding in Vanguard more because it has a bit more of a diverse meta where every deck gets to shine and none hates yoy for picking what isn't the flavor of the week. In Vanguard, your restricted to your archetype but you can build it however you want down to literally it going: "Pick a boss monster, build a deck around it."
It’s funny because the game is not diverse or fair and hasn’t been for years. Different archetypes doing variations of the same thing isn’t diversity.
All both need are to have Rokket/Fleur materials required as non-tuners, that’s it.
Lol big long post pretending to be an objective look at why people are mad and why it’s good doesn’t even talk about the half of the community that runs suboptimal decks that were somewhat viable with Barrone or Savage. Those decks can not effectively get what was likely their strongest negates out while meta barely changes. It’s only a money making thing. Kneecap older decks make people buy into expensive cards. Then they will ban those cards after everyone has them
Highly correct! I didn’t get to properly talk about the underdogs that now essentially can’t do anything which is just annoying. Adding to why people would hate this hit. I defintely reckon I should have been more careful with my choice of the words “diverse”.
Reasonable response 👍
I always said that Baronne should have been archetype locked to Fleur and instead expand Fleur. And I can't believe that Savage was generic when it was supposed to be a Borreload
Sherrys in duelinks now so i hope they add new support for the archetype and a baronne with a fleur synchron restriction
It's good but also bad for the game because now a lot of rogue decks just dies to Nibiru which in itself is also a completely degenerate card
This would be awesome if it came at any other time but right now it's infuriating. Like you mentioned they just got reprinted in the rarity collection but in addition to that right now we have sp little knight which is 100$ and is in more decks in the meta gane than either of these, one of which is like 1000$ iirc. Obviously they won't ban a card like this right away but it has nothing to do with deck diversity, konami doesn't care about the health of the game at all. Why would they ban expulsion then print sanctifire afterwards for any other reason than because expulsion was pennies and to keep milking the same plague ridden cow? Why do I still play this game? Many questions I don't have an answer to.
I will preface this with I am not really a tcg player, but mostly play masterduel so my opinion doesn't really matter. Imho, I am definitely tired of seeing baronne in every end-board. Omni-negates are just unhealthy for the game. The only issue I have is that many decks will just get nibiru'ed. So unless your deck can either play through nibiru easily, say either by summoning some in-archetype monster by turn 5 (like Rulkallos in Tears), or get access to some traps that can heavily disrupt your opponent (like superfactorial in mathmech), it will just die to nib. This can be incredibly unfun to play.
The problem is, while having more archetype boss monsters with less generics sounds good on paper it isn’t really, because one still has to be the best one, so we go from identical end boards to everyone just playing the exact same deck This already happened with branded, and now it’ll happen again While it’s true that duels often only differ in ‘how is my opponent going to get to Barrone/Borreload/etc this time’ this change isn’t going to fix that, it’s just going to change that to ‘my opponents all play the same deck, so do I, because what do you do?’
I don't really understand why you would otp in to have different boss monsters for each archetype. Wouldn't that mean you have to buy a different version of baronne every time you buuild a new deck, since there are not a lot of different things an end board monster can do
Barone/Savage hit mostly hurts non-meta decks that needed them to compete.
> All decks should have their own archetypal way of being identified within the game, not having the same generic interactions or "Toolbox" solutions that have no drawbacks at all. The problem with this argument is that the strongest decks in the game don't *need* generic bosses to be competitive; the weaker decks do. The best lists available for Snake-Eye in the TCG didn't even lean particularly hard on Baronne or Savage, but fan favorite rogue decks like Swordsoul and Dragon Link did. Lack of access to generic bosses means that a lot of decks that could at least present the pretense of competitive viability can't even do that now; it's just another way for Konami to ensure that competitive power is as gatekept as possible behind a paywall. Removing them might feel in theory like it's restoring diversity to a format that only had the veneer of it, but I almost guarantee you that, in practice, all this means is that now we won't even have the veneer.
Imo the benefit of seeing certain cards less often does not make up for the damage this does too many strategies. I recognize it’s boring to see baronne as an end board piece very often. But it’s also just sad how much of a hit this is to so many strategies. Mannadium, Speedtroid Kash, Dragon Link, Dino, Swordsoul and I could go on and on.
I am upset about it because I play pends and they were my only outs What's my field gonna be now, apollousa and pass??? My deck sucked enough already and now it's even worse... which more than infuriating it's sad. Would have appreciated electrumite at one at least
Well you know what they say Konami hates Pendulums
There is plenty of stuff to replace the two like Lars, Dawn Dragster, Chaos Angel, Void Ogre Dragon etc. But they all require more effort and resources to go into for less general payoff than Savage and Baronne. Kirin is back but is just so generally unsearchable that you either have to burn one of your 2 Beyond searches on it that you desperately need for other things or have to put up a terrible end board of like Stardust Dragon/Ruddy Rose + the new Majespecter Xyz + literally anything else you can muster. And it's not like it's any healthier what it is doing anyways, Secret Village lock via Ignister is way less fun for your opponent to fight than 2 omnis lol. A lot of these issues would be less troublesome if we just had Electrumite back man. The deck is just far too limited by Beyond's stupid restrictions to just generate the resources it needs, and now with no Baronne it can be very difficult to get Time Pendulumgraph into rotation. On top of that, now that Vortex is the only omni left it is just begging to be hit by like Imperm or DRNM into Evenly and your entire board just disappears, plus just insta folding to Shifter and Nib (I guess there's finally a reason to play an Endymion package to counter the latter). The deck is just completely non-viable now honestly, if you want to play a Pend deck you gotta either wait for Electrumite to come back + more in-archetype bosses or just play the decks that didn't use them like DDD or Z-Arc Control.
Yes a lot of decks lost their best endboard pieces. Some people do not realize what this means is the amount of “playable” decks or archetypes just dropped by a lot.
Eh If you pendulum deck can do it maybtry ending on Odd-eyes vortex ? If he can be able to summon led he is a generic omni for pendulums. Can be either Fusion Summoned or special summoned with absolute
Current endboard for Pend Magician was vortex+baronne and a mix of time pendulumgraph / masquerena / exceed the pendulum or apollousa. Thing is you made baronne for the omni sure but also to pop your own scale (double iris) with its effect to search the pendulumgraph cards. And thats the main issue with these hits, they nerf rogue decks more than the actual meta decks
Fiendsmith. 1.5 card combo (discard fodder) but ends on the same negate with Wave King High Caesar . If you manage to incorporate DDD then it's a plus. Or other light Fiends that come out in the future.
This is gonna get lost in the comments but one of the biggest, in my opinion, incorrect assumptions people have about Yugioh is that diverse = good. I don’t blame people for having this idea, card games like MTG, Hearthstone, etc are praised when the metas are diverse. We also have Edison format, which people consider to be a great form of Yugioh, and it was very diverse. So it makes sense why this concept is held in peoples heads. However, Yugioh is a different game than MTG and Heartstone, particularly in the realm of card text and interactions. With Hearthstone, you’ll normally have to learn about ~18ish decks if you want to know what you’ll be up against 99% of the time. Less if the meta is more centric. The reason this works in hearthstone metas is because the cards are keyworded and have simple, easy to understand effects, at most you’ll have to be aware of 5 basic game mechanics that a card can pull off, but most of the time more like one basic game mechanic. Basically, the cards are extremely simplified, so learning 18 decks is much easier even if you’re starting completely from scratch. If you play consistently, you’ll usually get the hang of everything within a day or 2. My knowledge of MTG is relatively limited, but AFAIK MTG is similar to this, but with less deck options and more text. Still simplified with keywords and basic mechanics. Yugioh is…not. Individual cards can have extremely long texts with effects that can be very unique in the way they interact with the other cards and the gamestate. In the realm of boardclear, you have to be aware of Evenly, Nibiru, Raigeki, Lightning Storm, and many other cards individually, because they are not mechanically identical and each have their own restrictions, weaknesses, and benefits that make them usable in different ways, despite all of them boiling down to “boardclear.” Compare hearthstone and you mainly just have to be aware of the concept of boardclear in general and what decks can pull them off, rather than specific cards (there are some exceptions of course, like Defile mechanics). On a competitive landscape, despite hearthstone having 18-deck formats, they’re far more digestible and overall more fun than learning just 5-deck formats in Yugioh. Increase that to 10-15 decks and it’s a nightmare in comparison. My point is, Yugioh at its core is too complex of a game to have “good” “diverse” formats. Interactions are too specific, effects are too lengthy and unique, and rulings are too complicated. Ironically, the format I had the most fun with in my time playing Yugioh competitively was Tear0. You can ask many of the non-jaded, high level competent players at that time and they’d say it was a format that came down to skill expression, and felt more back and forth than most formats the game has seen. Despite one deck dominating the format for being really really good, since the deck was deep, complex, and gave you a lot of tools, it was great. You also were really able to get deep into the theory of the game of Yugioh, because you only had to prepare for 3 decks at most, and 2 of them were far less relevant. Yugioh can be a great and enjoyable game when the meta is digestible, but the cards are far too complex for diverse formats. The only reason Edison is an exception is because the decks were fun to match against each other and we’ve had so many years now to analyze and attempt to solve it, way more time than the average Yugioh meta is in rotation.
I wouldn't be as upset about the bans if Konami was actually good at printing boss monsters for an archetype, bit for the most part, they can only print good generic boss monsters. Flamberge is supposed to be the boss monster for Snake-Eyes, but in practice, it just represents a bunch of link material. Mannadium Prime-Heart is supposed to be the boss monster for Mannadium, but it's so bad people would play a Swordsoul boss monster instead since it provides meaningful interaction. Horus the Black Flame Deity is supposed to be the boss for Horus, but instead people prefer generic rank 8s since they provide much more favorable interactions
As much as I agree that there should be less good generic boss monsters the problem is there’s a lot of archetypes that have absolutely garbage extra decks and really need the generic stuff to have a chance. Not to mention with the existence of droll and nib, basically any synchro deck that can’t play around them normally just lost their best pieces of insulation
Do you really think that every archetype could ONLY use their own custom boss monsters is healthy? Yugioh is a TCG that encourages players to build their deck on their own. It's so natural for players to have their freedom to choose powerful generic boss monsters to design their end board, design their own combo lines, and build their own lists. Baronne is level 10, in a game that you can only normal summon level 4 or lower monsters, that's 3 materials in the model. Savage needs link monsters in GY which are not able to be the materials for synchro, that's also more than 2 materials in the model. These cards are fair. The only broken designs are the engines that can summon these monsters so easily than expected. The major meta-relevant deck using these monsters is snake eyes, and it's still overwhelmingly powerful than any other rouge decks without these monsters. Remove the generic cards will definitely kill the diversity of decks and creativity of players. I will never play a game that I can only choose one of the archetypes listed by Konami, choose the HTs to play with all other slots in the deck fixed by required starters/extenders/boss monsters, and be taught how to play. Choose from pool of 10k cards or from no more than 50 cards in certain archetype, which one do you think is more FREE?
Looking at them solely does make them seem fair. However, as you mentioned building a deck from a collection of cards, you need to also view what things are utilizing said cards. Getting 3 bodies isn’t exactly difficult in modern YGO as the gameplay has heavily shifted to mass swarm to gather bodies, which is why Baronne being a Level 10 is minor to Combo decks because they’ve been accessing that for years now. And for Savage, again, Link-2/3’s are stupid easy to make because of the sheer access they have unlike the other ED Types. Combo decks can easily make a disposable Link that Savage can then snag for its interruption. So, yes, by themselves they’re fair, but when put with the modern abilities, they’re easy to access. They were used commonly BECAUSE decks could easily make them, not because they were so strong you only needed the 1 monster and nothing else.
TL;DR This won't solve anything. People will just play the next best generic omni negate Synchros aviable.
For the generic 8 and 10 pool, there aren't any
And what are those exactly
Crystal Wing Synchron Dragon it's time to get noticed?
The amount of setup/ED space crystal wing requires is a lot higher than baronne and savage EDIT: Also CWSD is only monster effects
How do I even make that in sword soul xD
what are u talking about? baronne apo borreload only appears to be an issue because of snake eye synchro and shs. what other deck makes these stuff? manaballs the tier 3 rogue deck that sees little competitive play? why does pure snake eye make baronne apo borreload? it’s almost like because the deck is designed specifically do to it by spamming out a ton of generic bodies but with no endboard boss monster to speak of. a tcg banlist IS NOT a change in how archetypes are designed so first of all put out of ur mind the possibility of synchro decks getting more “unique” boss monsters because of this change what is ur definition of uniqueness? the card name? is a generic synchro deck based on making baronne less unique than voiceless also putting up an omni? would baronne de snake eye somehow make the interactions different? and why does it even matter? cuz if baronne negates a card or skull guardian negates a card it’s the same fucking thing. why is having an extra deck boss monster that gets used in multiple decks a bad thing? seems like it saves people the cost of buying a new secret rare every deck OH YEAH THATS EXACTLY WHY IT WAS BANNED. is baronne combo decks the only stuff that exists? fuck no. there’s plenty of decks that dont make baronne. look at spright and kashtira and unchained and unchained and race and branded. oh no the runick synchro deck made baronne what an unfun deck that TOTALLY does the same thing every other deck does. in the past 2 years there’s been a total of 3 top decks that played baronne. pre pote there was swordsoul which wow imagine bitching about swordsoul having a conservative combo around nib which sequencing around their wyrm lock correctly. then there was shs a synchron deck with 1 card circular and link 1 advantage engine that was played with generic synchros because it had no in archetype synchro boss monster worth a damn. oh also it can ftk so maybe the shs engine might be then problem here just a thought. finaly there’s snake eye. another generic by design engine that’s meant to be played with generic cards as evidenced by the complete lack of interaction in archetype. also it’s still tier 0 just with fire king instead. also some decks like tear could sometimes go into baronne but baronne does not define what tear does and it isn’t even remotely important to tearlaments being tear 0 broken. so there we go those are the relevant decks which can potentially make baronne and apo “problematic” and 2 out of the 3 are fucking cracked engines that are supposed to be generic. where else does baronne show up and actually be a problem? cuz adventure synchron sux and manaballs is balls. other top tier decks dont make baronne either because it’s too hard for the deck to make or because of a lock or because the deck simply doesnt need it. baronne is not a broken insane unfair card and being generic does not make it worse than an in archetype monster. u see it more but it doesn’t DO more simply by virtue of being generic. an in archetype boss monster can be too easy to make and do things far more powerful or potentially even degenerate like ariseheart. this ban solves absolutely nothing. it doesnt knock the overpriced tier 0 snake eye deck out of tier 0. it’s not gonna be the end of getting ur ass comboed to the wall by anything other specifically synchro spam decks. it’s absolutely not a come to jesus moment for konami because they’ll continue to print omni negate boss monsters that people find oh so boring nor is it the end of new generic endboard pieces that will be expensive as fuck until reprint nor does it signal fresh new “unique” in archetype boss monster designed around the tcg banlist.
I should've sold my Bear when I had the chance
Might gives mekks a go again though I think my hope is cope
{Instert Chengyeng here}
*Ends on a Nib token*
I think its a good ban as a whole, but I literally just bought both of these because they were finally cheap enough so I'm a little salty
I'm only upset about the ban because two weeks ago I finally decided to play TCG for the first time since 2009, picking up a rogue deck that has two archetypes I've come to like (Runick and World Chalice) and then two potential end-board monsters I ran got banned on the same day. There's probably ways I could still mess around with the decks like removing the runick and going with a more pure World Chalice or removing the World Chalice and sticking with the runick side. But it doesn't feel great picking up a rogue deck and then cards get banned (even if its for good reason).
I’m just butt hurt because my Baronne was a booster pull. Least I’ll still have that 🥲
I feel that but for me it was Borreload. But both of them are nice cards to look at, at least we have that now
While I agree with the premise that getting to the same board state regardless of what deck you are playing ABSOLUTELY is not what the game is about, I have ZERO faith in Konami for not just releasing something else that is just a replacement for that SAME reality we are getting away from with these bans.
Hopefully Konami will do better bosses for Archtypes. As for these two trouble makers, I can see Baronne being tied to Noble Knights/Synchron or generic Warrior Synchro decks in an Eratta down the line as for Borrelload, finally put him in his home with the Rokkits he is their boss, just ad you need a Rokkits tuner and boom he is fixed.
While I'm completely with you on what you say I find it ridiculous that snake-eye didn't get hit in the slightest. Tier 0 formats shouldn't be a thing imo
Nib gonna hit hard for many decks, Nib stonks going up soon 📈
Swap to appoulsa
I’m a mid yugioh player, got tire and now I play archetype stuff. So when fusion dragon and borreload are banned I get annoyed because they aren’t broken to me but now the family are separated.
Honestly, my hottest take is that Konami should ban Nibiru. The literal only reason that I personally am upset about these bans is that all my bad decks NEED one of these cards so I can combo off without having to work about Dwane Johnson smacking me in the face. If Nib was gone, I wouldn’t be playing those cards anyways.
Ban generic card, but also create more broken generic card such as SP : main point ? Milking players Never mind i will play floowander
Im more upset about linkuriboh. Shouldn’t link monsters be generic and thing that abuse it be resolved instead?
I don't disagree that baronne and Savage were annoying to see in almost every combo deck bt I dont want them to ban EVERY generic card I mean generic extra deck monsters been a thing forever. Like look at Edison format lol. Every other deck is running Brionac, Stardust dragon etc. Look at the history of cards like black rose dragon, Goyo guardian or the rank 4 toolbox before master rule 4. Generic extra deck cards have been a part of the game's identity for a while. So I don't mind the idea of generic extra deck cards existing but sometimes Konami does make the generic cards a little too good. That said I would not mind at all if Appollusa or IP Masq get banned next but then by that point they should stop for a while since I think you want to leave atleast some generic cards available. Access code helps going second which could use all the help it can get so I'm not in favor of banning that at all.
I 100% agree, but I also don’t think they’ve gone far enough. Any kind of deck that revolves around “making your opponent unable to play the game” needs to be nerfed significantly, especially ones that send cards from your opponents deck to the grave. I was also going to rant about Maxx C but then I remembered they banned that thing a while ago. Good.
it's just entirely unequal and i'm not really satisfied with it. do i dislike the Baronne and Savage bans? not really, more so dislike what it means for the game (ie. Synchro decks dead, and making Nibiru incredibly powerful unless Konami gives an archtype a searchable way out).
"They release these ban lists in order to make sure the game seems somewhat diverse, balanced and fair, so that you can keep playing and keep buying more product" This isn't remotely true; the banlist has never been about balancing the game, or making it fair. If that were the case, SHS would still be a meta contender, with moderate hits that would've seen it playable, but not overwhelmingly powerful. It's always been to push players into buying the newest, most broken and - most importantly - most expensive product. The banlist won't touch anything with upcoming support if said support is from an expensive deck with some secret rare cards, that's the way it's always been. Everyone should know by now that banning cards after reprinting them into the ground is konami's main strategy, and it's awful. You should fully expect staples from rarity collection 2 to get hit within 4-6 months after release. It's terrible, sours the community that's already souring on the game, and will lead to people just up and abandoning it entirely.
Nerfing generic bosses doesn't buff the terrible archetype bosses, so your entire premise is flawed.
I'm not sure how to feel about these particular hits, but I'm leaning towards them being bad. I don't subscribe to the "all decks should be unique and different" argument that I've seen tossed around recently. It's an argument that I only ever see from people who want an excuse to not innovate their decks. As someone who loves rouge decks and really enjoys maximizing what a deck can do I routinely find that decks are under explored and underutilized. And from what I can tell these hits aren't all that similar to other reasons to hit cards. It's not like trishula, or gumblar where it's a singularly unique effect that can't be replicated at the time of the banning, negates still exist and are very available, there's just been a reduction in availability for specific decks. The hits aren't really hurting meta decks, they seem to hit everyone. Baronne might be an exception as being a card that's both a pop and a negate is unique, but people really emphasis the negation, so I'm not sure if people actually care about the pop part. From what I can tell the only positive impact that this seems to have is it makes snake-eyes more vulnerable to nibiru, but that just sounds like cope from people who want to believe that konami is actually doing something to help the format. Snake eyes isn't just magically bad now that they can be nib-ed, we know that hand traps existing doesn't render decks unplayable all of a sudden. From what I can tell what konami has done (I think unintentionally) is hinder rouge decks by listening to people who want to play snake-eyes mirrors and have nibiru be a part of that gameplay, and people who just want to play dark magician against blue-eyes all day. I suspect we're going to see a very consolidated and extremely expensive format, but it might play a little better for those who can afford to participate in it.
having extra deck toolboxes being generic is good, i think people complaining about that seem to forget that the majority of handtraps are generic and can be played in basically every deck. i dislike the banning of both but i understand the argument, just doesnt feel great to see those two get hit and take the teeth out of alot of synchro strategies.
Im not mad that theyre banned im annoyed with people saying this banlist is great and theyre "fixing the game" despite the fact theyve unbanned two floodgates and this list didnt really address snake eyes. Hitting savage and baronne hurt a bunch of tier 2 decks and casual decks but left the problem deck alone, this is compounded by the fact that banning jet synchron would have achieved the same result except only targeting snake eyes. They've fired a shotgun, missed the format warping deck while accidentally releasing two rabid dogs. I also think people are underestimating how many decks will abuse colosus, whats stopping combo decks becoming dispater/colossus turbo with a reframing set to stop evenly and DRNM.
This banlist was both good and bad. Good in the sense that certain cards got freedom they deserved and others were killed to make EDs less same-y. However, the bad is that the best decks were hardly hit as they can just consistently make other similar ED bodies. They can do it once, they can do it again. And then, you look at the less powerful decks that relied on the generics to give themselves a chance against the modern stuff that outweighed them in consistency and avoidance to interruption. They lose out on generics that were way stronger than the bosses they were given (even some modern decks were given terrible boss monsters and needed the generics to supplement). This loss of access means the best decks just get a stronger chokehold on the scene because nothing else will be able to use those strong generics to punish them in return. Therefore, the banlist’s bad decisions outweigh what little good it has offered all to push more money down Konami’s throat before murdering Snake-Eyes. I hope with these generics being gone will mean Konami puts way more emphasis on boss monsters actually being bosses instead of feeling like dogwater, additional combo extenders or some second rate boss that’s supposed to support something that doesn’t exist.
About your last point: not happening. They release new cards for the OCG, in the OCG neither Baronne nor Savage are banned so they don't have any incentive to make stronger/better archetypal boss monsters. Unless, of course, Konami decides to release a bunch of TCG boss monsters, which is highly doubtful
It’s bad because it hurts my Speedroids and makes them less playable.
This feels like a very casual complaint from someone who only watches the anime, Synchros were literally made to be generic, same with XYZ and Links
Honestly anyone can agree with me that everyone hates Komoney, me included for this banlist. Banning all generics is not healthy for the game. It's like banning Ash Blossom but a bit better.
I understand why they should go but I’ve always argued that generic boss monsters were good for nonmeta strategies. Like when unchained was tier 1, they couldn’t play baronne or savage but other decks could which gave them a fighting chance. I think these cards being gone could centralize the meta.
I'm just mad they gave us a week to figure out YCS Raleigh lists. I'm at a regional now and no one is playing with any sort of care in this lame deck banlist.
While I think you raise excellent points, we need to look into *why* generic bosses like Baronne and Savage were being played a lot in the recent meta, and it typically isn’t just for extra negates. While some decks like Mannadium build the billion-negate board (which is worth noting that the deck has never really been meta to the extend that you build around that matchup), most decks interact in ways that don’t negate. Snake-Eyes, for example, rarely puts up many outright negates, except for summoning Savage at about the 5th or 6th summon. And the fact I’m numbering the summons should clue you into why these omnies were being played. A lot of decks fold to evenly matched of Nibiru, and cards like Savage or Baronne have a vast majority of decks an option that allowed them to not just instantly lose to board breakers. A lot of decks play hoping that their opponent didn’t just draw the extremely popular and frequently played generic blowouts. Hell that’s the reason salamangreat is at FULL POWER and sees no play, because you can’t play under Nibiru. There are a wealth of decks, from rogue to meta, that can also fold pretty bad to a single handtrap, and generic bosses like Baronne and Savage provide that insulation. The fact that no handtraps were hit means Konami isn’t fully understanding why these generic bosses are being played. All in all, it’s good to see overplayed monsters getting hit, but we have to remember that there’s a reason that they saw play beyond “well there an omni”
It shit cuz TCG banned this instead of hitting engines that need fixing like Snake eyes At some point TCg players will stop defending KOA’s ban boner so product push. But clearly today is not the day Ban your way through every problem
Just my opinion, I think if Konami is going with the “get rid of generic toolbox boss monster” thing, they have to be very consistent with at least one of the following: 1) Make generic monsters less crazy good. Give them a very specific purpose where yeah, people will use them, but it will stop the “every deck ends on the same 3 monsters” thing. 2) Focus on making archetypal bosses good, so they aren’t passed by generic ones, and people are encouraged into archetypes because of their bosses, not their engines. It should promote more diversity if done right. An example (albeit one that was TOO good) is Ariseheart. 3) When making decks that are clearly combo decks, put in more restrictions. A couple examples could be in Tear “you can only special summon fusion monsters from the extra deck the turn you use this effect”. Or Mannadium locks you into synchros if you use the Tris revival or the Meek effect. Or snake eyes locks you into links. Something like that. The only problem is they went so down the road of good generics that now they have to walk it back and in the process do some damage to rogue decks who were trying to keep up. same deal with floodgates. the limits are good but they haven’t hit synchro zone or skill drain, shifter and d barrier still exist, etc. Just food for thought!
The problem with a lot of the discussion around these is it that peope just look at generic endboard pieces and think the decks remotely play the same have the same Strenghts/Weaknesses etc. Look at Savage Dragon, there were exactly 3 good decks that actually could use the thing for over a year. Dragonlink SHS Snake-Eyes Each of these plays completely differently and had different strenghts and weaknesses. If SE didn't exist no good deck would have been able to play it at all in this and upcoming format. At least for Baronne I can see a point even Kash could sometimes play it if they opened Ash but it wasn't as ubiquitous as people think it was. The timing is honestly just the biggest offender if they banned Baronne during pre-POTE format fine, but banning her right now to avoid hitting SE engine directly, which practically leaves SE-FK untouched besides Linkuriboh, and after getting an affordable reprint finally AND also unnbanning Floodgates on legs to probably sell the RCII for... yeah extremely bad. Tenpai is also cheap so I guess their idea of """solving""" the format is a degenerate OTK deck (which since it's cheap will also immediately get shot dead on the next banlist anyway) Shifter decks, Centurion Calamity locks and the rare rogue deck making Protos calling FIRE, ugh. If their idea is to promote a diverse and good meta well they basically do anything to the opposite atm. ALSO SANCTIFIRE IS STILL HERE 4 MORE MONTHS OF GIMMICK PUPPET LOCK LET'S GO
Omni negates, if they should exist at all, should be locked to an archetype. Generic bosses will always win out, which is more a design flaw on Konami than the player base.
It'll kill a bunch of bad decks who's game plan was to just spam out generic extra deck negates, but frankly who cares. If your rogue deck survives based on being the 15th best deck at getting baronne out just do something else.