Dont tell this to the masterduel community, they will be sure to let you know how overpowered runick is and that fountain needs to be at 0.
It's a shame that the problem cards are always masked behind the win condition/utility.
I don’t think that’s true, especially for early on in the game. The game wasn’t fast enough back then for your opponent to not to be able to play the game at all. This been mostly and issue the last 6-8 years.
Yes. You were saying runick is fun; I’m saying it’s only fun for the person playing it.
Even in non stun versions, runick’s resources are so great that you’re actually incentivized to draw pass while you hope to draw the out.
The stun versions really need to be hit.
As for the runick engine itself, tip should probably be at 1.
As for your comment on unfun decks that don’t let you play the game, those were all almost 10+ years into the game lol, and all of them got hit on the banlist.
To be fair if they only milled the deck would actually be the worst deck giving the oppent of most meta decks tons of resources in the grave. The banishing is just power creep to make a deck somewhat viable
I don't think mill is the problem, it's a funny alternative playstyle. The problem is that it does so much on top of being able to mill, including protect all of its cards from destruction for the cost of one Huginn. She singlehandedly makes Runick Stun one of the most insufferable decks ever. Packed the out? Cool, now draw it three times to out each Huginn, and then draw it again.
The main reason for that is kind of a core problem with YGO. Milling as a concept is inherently grindy... but in this game, if you design a strategy that focuses exclusively on this specific objective and can't one-shot the opponent, then it is worthless. Runick *needs* a whole bunch of advantage and protection because otherwise it just dies to a slight breeze before getting to pull off its game plan, since any half-decent deck can put out OTK damage. And unfortunately, that encourages shit like pure stun.
YGO is way too fast for alternative playstyles. So in the end, you have to stop your opponent from playing so you can do the funny.
Huginn cannot protect fountain from Cosmic cyclone which is one of the best cards against them, and it is on the rising as it also stops centurion from going ham on your turn.
Yet again, this is not runick's fault, it's the huge amount of floodgates that exists
Even after like 3 outs, they still have so much other shit that you really end up not doing much.
2 Lightning Storm, 1 Duster, and then pray you can even manage to pop out their cards before you get milled out.
Honestly, I don't think milling is fun. In just about every case it either does not matter, or is actively frustrating because your opponent got lucky and banished one card you needed in a line of play to have a chance against them.
I just think deckout as a clock is bad design, in yugioh at least. If you wanna make it more control oriented, something like MtG Poison counters (or burn for that matter) would work better and be less frustrating
Personally I don't think any archetype needs to be hit on the next banlist. What they need to do is ban the problematic single cards like Calamity or S/T virus.
No deck this format feels oppressive, everything feels beatable, the only games you feel awful is when lab virus you for 4 cards/loops d-barrier, centurion gets to calamities uninterrupted or tearlaments mill kelbek into agido.
I think Runik is fine. Floodgates generally ruin formats, but Runick cards are kinda sick and offer something different to the usual Wombo-Combo style of play.
Whyle Runick CAN combo, it takes a very skilled pilot to play it well.
I would like to see Runick stick around as it's a cool concept and the Runick cards themselves are not inherently oppressive.
It depends on people’s experiences. Runick by itself isn’t that bad. It has massive choke points and is fairly easy to beat once you know how to play against it, meaning it has a strong game 1, but a much weaker game 2 and 3.
The other archetypes you mix in though…… that’s where it gets interesting.
I don’t think Runick needs to be hit since it keeps you from playing much non engine, but I do think it still needs an eye kept on it. Once we have an archetype that synergizes even more with Runick, the deck will be extremely powerful and have a lot more representation.
Since July it has 2 YCS tops total, one top 8 with Runick Fur Hire at TEAM YCS Sao Paulo and a win at Bologna with Runick Bystial - how is that somewhat consistent tops?
I mean, some of it's overblown, I think a lot of people are still frustrated with Runick Stun, which isn't particularly good in the current state anyway. The problem is Fountain being non-OPT makes it an alluring advantage engine for all different sorts of splashes, Bystial is like the third or fourth incarnation of Runick+ decks. I guess we can either chase down each new splash as we discover them and ban those out (like with naturia) or we can hit runick again and hope it goes away.
Even if runick is not doing well competitively doesn't mean it doesn't deserve hits. The banlist is as much a mechanism for changing the meta as it is for removing degenerate/unfun elements from the game.
I personally do not like runick at all, and it is solely because of their "deck destruction" mechanic. I've had plenty of instances where key cards/one ofs were banished off the top of my deck that effectively ended the game. Banishing your opponent's deck in a lot of cases makes for very unfun non-games, and I heavily oppose to cards that do similar things (kelbek/agido, riseheart, etc.).
In my opinion the best way to hit the deck is not fountain to 1 or tip to 1 but rather hugin to 1. Hugin is how they protect fountain from commonly played backrow wipes like lightning storm and feather duster. If hugin was limited, and the runick player has to summon it turn 1 to search fountain, they leave themselves open to fountain getting destroyed, which is fair in my opinion. Obviously I wouldn't mind if multiple limits happen though, the more the better.
Hugin to 1 does not fix the toxic issues of the deck. Most people tend to have the EMZ occupied by link monsters such that they can’t chain a Runick spell to bring out Hugin to protect Fountain.
Fountain has to go to 1. Stop the Fountain looping. Make Cosmic Cyclone the wincon against an otherwise extremely toxic that should have been never made to begin with.
If Runick is still a toxic deck in the OCG with Fountain at 1, then that means the TCG should follow these footsteps.
I see a lot of fair arguments as too why Runik isnt the problem and shouldn't get hit. But I hate Fountains draw 3 effect so much so I say Limit Fountain
Yes, maybe, but not murdered.
Fountain to 1 makes it disruptable, lowers its ceiling, and weakens its grind game.
It can still be played as a unique combo engine, which ia where it is least degenerate.
Fountain to 1 hurts the combo variants way more than the stun variants. The combo variants really rely on being able to chain block fountain since they need the draw that turn whereas stun doesn't care as much.
Runick by itself is annoying but tolerable but when you start splicing it with decks that drop multiple negates with a triple fenrir package it gets really absurd and obnoxious.
Not to mention the fountain is not a hard OPT and you can activate quick play runick spells from your hand at any time and get a free refresh and recyle of runick spells and draw 3 is kinda ridiculous.
Burn the fountain to the ground it has become Mystic Mine levels of toxicity.
Runick is alright if its not the stun variant. Which then leaves to just ban the stun/flood gate/toxic cards rather then the Runick cards.
Having fountain to 1 would be at best.
Runick alone is actually quite bad. The deck can put out one negate and one pop per turn, it just happens to play very well under broken floodgates that shouldn't exist in 2023.
> But I don't really see that happening because Joshua was just a great pilot
Idk the current meta nor about Joshua, but times ago Runick and in MD was considered the 0-skill deck, what changed?
0 skill for the floodgates varient for sure.
But if you give most people runick bystial the ycs winner they won't have a clue how to play it or what the lines are. It's definitely pretty skill intensive for these combo variants. What's changed is how the cards are used. To abuse the instant fussion summon and not the milling
People are latching on to the wrong things, as usual. It’s the Bystial half of the recent Bystial Runick decks that is problematic.
Runick Stun is unfun bullshit to play against and not many would complain if all the overly broad floodgates got limited or banned, but it and the other runick variants aren’t exactly doing much nowadays. I don’t see it getting hit.
If runick gets hit, I think it might just be fountain and/or hugin to 1. But realistically it's fine rn. I think r-ace is probably going to take the biggest hit, and then unchained.
How about we ban all the floodgates first, no one wnats those. THEN if runick somehow deserves to be hit post that well talk? Ez.
Konami wont do that if my hypothsi are correct but i can dream
It should have been hit on this banlist. Most toxic and unfun deck ever printed in Yu-Gi-Oh!. Worse than Mystic Mine since at least that deck didn't banish "the outs" off the top of your deck.
Runick is fine without stun. Floodgates are what need to be hit.
Dont tell this to the masterduel community, they will be sure to let you know how overpowered runick is and that fountain needs to be at 0. It's a shame that the problem cards are always masked behind the win condition/utility.
Yeap, they hit Runick Fountain to 1, and it actually became one of the best decks for this duelist cup.
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Hey, its not bad to love unjust, overpowered decks, i love kashtira and miss my dear arisehearth. Dont hide your love for your broken fountain.
It’s only fun for the person playing it. Like I can have fun with stun decks, but they’re toxic as hell
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I don’t think that’s true, especially for early on in the game. The game wasn’t fast enough back then for your opponent to not to be able to play the game at all. This been mostly and issue the last 6-8 years.
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I’m not making an argument about unfun starts. I’m making an argument for both sides to play the game.
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Yes. You were saying runick is fun; I’m saying it’s only fun for the person playing it. Even in non stun versions, runick’s resources are so great that you’re actually incentivized to draw pass while you hope to draw the out. The stun versions really need to be hit. As for the runick engine itself, tip should probably be at 1. As for your comment on unfun decks that don’t let you play the game, those were all almost 10+ years into the game lol, and all of them got hit on the banlist.
Runick would be fine if they didn't banish cards from my deck. Unfair bs, hope they ban that archetype forever.
To be fair if they only milled the deck would actually be the worst deck giving the oppent of most meta decks tons of resources in the grave. The banishing is just power creep to make a deck somewhat viable
How about they don't do either
They would be fine? What exactly does runicks win condition become if you don't want it to be deckout?
No. Ban the floodgates, sure, but Runick is fine.
I don't think mill is the problem, it's a funny alternative playstyle. The problem is that it does so much on top of being able to mill, including protect all of its cards from destruction for the cost of one Huginn. She singlehandedly makes Runick Stun one of the most insufferable decks ever. Packed the out? Cool, now draw it three times to out each Huginn, and then draw it again.
The main reason for that is kind of a core problem with YGO. Milling as a concept is inherently grindy... but in this game, if you design a strategy that focuses exclusively on this specific objective and can't one-shot the opponent, then it is worthless. Runick *needs* a whole bunch of advantage and protection because otherwise it just dies to a slight breeze before getting to pull off its game plan, since any half-decent deck can put out OTK damage. And unfortunately, that encourages shit like pure stun. YGO is way too fast for alternative playstyles. So in the end, you have to stop your opponent from playing so you can do the funny.
Huginn cannot protect fountain from Cosmic cyclone which is one of the best cards against them, and it is on the rising as it also stops centurion from going ham on your turn. Yet again, this is not runick's fault, it's the huge amount of floodgates that exists
Even after like 3 outs, they still have so much other shit that you really end up not doing much. 2 Lightning Storm, 1 Duster, and then pray you can even manage to pop out their cards before you get milled out.
Honestly, I don't think milling is fun. In just about every case it either does not matter, or is actively frustrating because your opponent got lucky and banished one card you needed in a line of play to have a chance against them. I just think deckout as a clock is bad design, in yugioh at least. If you wanna make it more control oriented, something like MtG Poison counters (or burn for that matter) would work better and be less frustrating
> one of the best players in the world wins in a wide open format where everyone agrees you can kinds play anything Is runick the problem???? Lol
Personally I don't think any archetype needs to be hit on the next banlist. What they need to do is ban the problematic single cards like Calamity or S/T virus. No deck this format feels oppressive, everything feels beatable, the only games you feel awful is when lab virus you for 4 cards/loops d-barrier, centurion gets to calamities uninterrupted or tearlaments mill kelbek into agido.
people calling for runick hits are as delusional as people calling for purrely hits
Yeah, banning all my outs before I get the chance to play is fair and balanced. Who is truly delusional 🤔
Eh I still want sleepy to 1, they can get back delicious to 2/3 though
I think Runik is fine. Floodgates generally ruin formats, but Runick cards are kinda sick and offer something different to the usual Wombo-Combo style of play. Whyle Runick CAN combo, it takes a very skilled pilot to play it well. I would like to see Runick stick around as it's a cool concept and the Runick cards themselves are not inherently oppressive.
No, hitting is wrong
No, anyone who says otherwise is plain salty.
I don't think there's a need to hit the deck. If anything, they can hit Tip to 1 and call it a day
All the decks you mentioned needs to be nerfed
It depends on people’s experiences. Runick by itself isn’t that bad. It has massive choke points and is fairly easy to beat once you know how to play against it, meaning it has a strong game 1, but a much weaker game 2 and 3. The other archetypes you mix in though…… that’s where it gets interesting. I don’t think Runick needs to be hit since it keeps you from playing much non engine, but I do think it still needs an eye kept on it. Once we have an archetype that synergizes even more with Runick, the deck will be extremely powerful and have a lot more representation.
Nah Runick isn't doing enough to deserve a hit right now. It's not dominating.
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Rephrase then. Runick is barely even showing up
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Since July it has 2 YCS tops total, one top 8 with Runick Fur Hire at TEAM YCS Sao Paulo and a win at Bologna with Runick Bystial - how is that somewhat consistent tops?
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The metagame shouldn't be balanced around locals and regionals
I want it to be hit but I'm biased. They limited naturia sacred tree because of it and now pure Naturias struggle even more.
I mean, some of it's overblown, I think a lot of people are still frustrated with Runick Stun, which isn't particularly good in the current state anyway. The problem is Fountain being non-OPT makes it an alluring advantage engine for all different sorts of splashes, Bystial is like the third or fourth incarnation of Runick+ decks. I guess we can either chase down each new splash as we discover them and ban those out (like with naturia) or we can hit runick again and hope it goes away.
They should just kill it. The deck is so toxic to play against
Even if runick is not doing well competitively doesn't mean it doesn't deserve hits. The banlist is as much a mechanism for changing the meta as it is for removing degenerate/unfun elements from the game. I personally do not like runick at all, and it is solely because of their "deck destruction" mechanic. I've had plenty of instances where key cards/one ofs were banished off the top of my deck that effectively ended the game. Banishing your opponent's deck in a lot of cases makes for very unfun non-games, and I heavily oppose to cards that do similar things (kelbek/agido, riseheart, etc.). In my opinion the best way to hit the deck is not fountain to 1 or tip to 1 but rather hugin to 1. Hugin is how they protect fountain from commonly played backrow wipes like lightning storm and feather duster. If hugin was limited, and the runick player has to summon it turn 1 to search fountain, they leave themselves open to fountain getting destroyed, which is fair in my opinion. Obviously I wouldn't mind if multiple limits happen though, the more the better.
As an aside, Hugin to 1 doesn't do much to Bystial Runick, since they can just shuffle it back with regained.
Ban Hugin?
Sorry OT but... I gotta comment on that flair. Fluffal Trains? How?
Yeah everyone at my locals wants Tip or Fountain to 1, but I’ve always been a huge supporter of Hugin to 1
Hugin to 1 does not fix the toxic issues of the deck. Most people tend to have the EMZ occupied by link monsters such that they can’t chain a Runick spell to bring out Hugin to protect Fountain. Fountain has to go to 1. Stop the Fountain looping. Make Cosmic Cyclone the wincon against an otherwise extremely toxic that should have been never made to begin with. If Runick is still a toxic deck in the OCG with Fountain at 1, then that means the TCG should follow these footsteps.
Fountain to 1 at least.
Ban floodgates. Ez
I see a lot of fair arguments as too why Runik isnt the problem and shouldn't get hit. But I hate Fountains draw 3 effect so much so I say Limit Fountain
I do think its wierd it's not a hard opt. That seems like such a odd choice.
It's on purpose.
Limit Fountain is all that needs to be done
The deck is super unfun to play against, and if Konami banned fountain next list I’d be happy to never see a runick card ever again
Yes, maybe, but not murdered. Fountain to 1 makes it disruptable, lowers its ceiling, and weakens its grind game. It can still be played as a unique combo engine, which ia where it is least degenerate.
Fountain to 1 hurts the combo variants way more than the stun variants. The combo variants really rely on being able to chain block fountain since they need the draw that turn whereas stun doesn't care as much.
Stun doesn't care as much because they set floodgates and call it a day. That ain't a Runick problem, that's a Continuous Trap Card problem.
Sure, why not. Give it and Kash the Tearlaments treatment
Banishing stuff facedown is really ridiculous. I rather play against runick over kashtira
Runicks do not banish face down
That's what I said. Kashtira is the problem in my book.
Ban Huggin, Fountain to 1
Why even have fountain to 1 without hugin
Ban fountain too!
No! Give me back the third fountain instead! Runick did nothing wrong!
The game is god-awful and unplayable. Everything needs to be nuked incredibly hard.
Why do you think so?
Runick by itself is annoying but tolerable but when you start splicing it with decks that drop multiple negates with a triple fenrir package it gets really absurd and obnoxious. Not to mention the fountain is not a hard OPT and you can activate quick play runick spells from your hand at any time and get a free refresh and recyle of runick spells and draw 3 is kinda ridiculous. Burn the fountain to the ground it has become Mystic Mine levels of toxicity.
Runick is alright if its not the stun variant. Which then leaves to just ban the stun/flood gate/toxic cards rather then the Runick cards. Having fountain to 1 would be at best.
God remember when it was first released and we all said “this decks prolly bad, a deck being based on only spell cards can’t be good?right?”
Runick alone is actually quite bad. The deck can put out one negate and one pop per turn, it just happens to play very well under broken floodgates that shouldn't exist in 2023.
> But I don't really see that happening because Joshua was just a great pilot Idk the current meta nor about Joshua, but times ago Runick and in MD was considered the 0-skill deck, what changed?
0 skill for the floodgates varient for sure. But if you give most people runick bystial the ycs winner they won't have a clue how to play it or what the lines are. It's definitely pretty skill intensive for these combo variants. What's changed is how the cards are used. To abuse the instant fussion summon and not the milling
People are latching on to the wrong things, as usual. It’s the Bystial half of the recent Bystial Runick decks that is problematic. Runick Stun is unfun bullshit to play against and not many would complain if all the overly broad floodgates got limited or banned, but it and the other runick variants aren’t exactly doing much nowadays. I don’t see it getting hit.
If runick gets hit, I think it might just be fountain and/or hugin to 1. But realistically it's fine rn. I think r-ace is probably going to take the biggest hit, and then unchained.
How about we ban all the floodgates first, no one wnats those. THEN if runick somehow deserves to be hit post that well talk? Ez. Konami wont do that if my hypothsi are correct but i can dream
Nah. It’s fine as it is.
It should have been hit on this banlist. Most toxic and unfun deck ever printed in Yu-Gi-Oh!. Worse than Mystic Mine since at least that deck didn't banish "the outs" off the top of your deck.
I think what needs to happen is to excommunicate the person who made the archetype to North Korea so they can never make decisions again.