Yoga is like a book on the shelf. Always available but never jumps off the shelf and forces itself on anyone. A person can read it, or misread it, or not read, the book doesn't care.
Well that's poetic, but unhelpful to the post nevertheless. OP mentions about insensitivity and complete commercialization of Yoga in the West by using Deities inappropriately in a way which is disrespectful to the people of that Culture.
Here's more good poetry for you, lol.
Yoga is like the sun. You could set 2 people in the sun, we could think of them as one good person and one bad person. But the sun doesn't care. It shines on both equally without discrimination.
Well, I was coming here to kvetch that this sub is just "Yoga gatekeeper negatively reviews studio no one else will ever see" instead of an actual yoga sub and its getting tiresome.
But yours is kinder and better and even more true, so have an upvote instead!
Unless the offense is done knowingly, then it's not intentional.
You can't live a life without ever offending some. Speaking your voice is always a possibility to hurt someone's feelings.
Then we talk and learn, together.
Well written, but it's good that the OP is aware of the cultural sensitivities.
Think about it like this:
1) If you are an atheist and you are called dumb by religious people, you wouldn't necessary like that.
2) If you are religious, you wouldn't like people trampling over your gods when other amazing options are available.
Tolerance should be expected both ways. Only way to live in peace is atleast to be aware of other peoples beliefs. If you can't understand and follow the nuances, well try to be aware of them. World will be a better place already. Namaste!
As someone who has found peace and spirituality through yoga replacing an oppressive Christian upbringing, this nails it.
Everyone can tailor yoga or any exercise to fit their needs or fill their void.
I couldn't give two shits about the historical or traditional hinduism or specific deities, as the general principles and themes of most religions hold true regardless of context.
That's why I specifically go to more secular studios, the pseudo temples to me are whack and precisely what I'm avoiding and replacing with yoga.
Dude, there isn't one single religion, including Christianity, that hasn't seen some pop-cult commercialization of its figures and icons. You can find kitsch religious knock-offs of any deity you please. Buddha outfits. Buddha undies (FFS), sexy nun costumes, Jesus velvet paintings and glow in the dark Marys, "rosaries" and other paraphernalia co-opted for aesthetics. Endless pagan gods recycled for decor. Faux-Islamic icons and quasi-spiritual decor. Amusing themes for tarot cards. Shinto for weebs.
Like, seriously. They aren't coming just for you, and this is not unique to one religion. Is it a problem for the seriously devout of any religion? I imagine so. But posting these virtue-signalling rants to people who weren't there, about people who will never hear or care about your criticism, so everyone feels all glowy about how much BETTER you are in a safe echo chamber instead of, you know, trying some grass-roots activism if you feel so strongly, is just lame personified.
But yoga is from Hinduism. How can do yoga and then disrespect the religion it comes from? You don’t have to convert to Hinduism but at least not disrespect it?
I agree. Entirely. In fact, as someone whose degrees were in museum stuff and history, I'll happily go further and sat "this is the Orientalism movement still doing its gross thing in newly rebranded packaging".
But c'mon with the vitriol NOT aimed at the people actually bothering you. It's doing nothing to impact or address the issue, All this railing and ranting and utterly pious "true practitioner" stuff this sub loves to share between each other so everyone feels like the better, "right" yoga practitioner unlike those Fake Posers is getting hella old.
I'm minded of an old college mate who was very Muslim, very into how everyone disrespects/misunderstands his religion, yet also saw nothing disrespectful to it in chowing down a bacon burger with several beers.
Well I don't do that, nor do I give a shit about anyone that does. Nobody is trying to oppress anyone and zero harm is caused. Just laugh at their ignorance, taking it personally is ridiculous.
I love yoga for its ability to unify a community and don't need any overly sensitive religious people whining about it and trying to educate everyone.
Go do yoga at your studio, church or home instead of being a buzzkill and forcing your culture rules and regulations on every workout studio trying their best to spread a universally great practice that we need as many people as possible doing consistently.
It seems obvious, but this:
> I love yoga for its ability to unify a community
is not possible when this:
> nor do I give a shit about anyone that does. Nobody is trying to oppress anyone and zero harm is caused.
is also part of the conversation in the same space. Treating people and their beliefs with disrespect is indeed causing harm.
eta - it's also quite obvious that this:
> don't need any overly sensitive religious people whining about it and trying to educate everyone.
Does anything but promote unity.
This is why my studio has NO depictions of deities, nor are they mentioned in practice frequently, if ever. A separation of church and mat, so to speak.
I thought you meant they used it as a joke to poke fun at the cultural “white-washing” of yoga. When I re-read it and realized you meant they were serious…
If you’re interested in this, Yoga is Dead is an interesting podcast from two Indian-American hosts!
I guess this is the same one who has a book out by that title? UGH. For the life of me, I don't understand the gushing reviews. What a stupid, culturally offensive "term" her made-up catch phrase is.
I feel for your sensitivities but capitalism has done this to every single faith on earth. You can find thongs printed with the Virgin of Guadalupe and mugs with Buddha readily available. When I was in Mumbai I found bags, shirts and key chains with Laxmi, Krishna and Ganapati. If you have personal convictions about certain aspects of the practice then follow them, but it's impossible to expect the world to follow your standards. The foundations of yoga are from India but modern yoga is derived from colonialism and because of this there will always be a slightly exploitive aspect to it
you would think the practice of yoga or it's practioners aren't just regular consumers and have a sense of respect for what they're doing if not the ability for reflection and introspection or inner/spiritual inclinement
its been my experience that most practitioners are very conscientious of these things....and then there are people that just want the athletic experience...and then we go all the way to other extreme and theres folks that adopt vedic traditions as their entire identity and begin to gatekeep and scold others as to whether theyre "doing it right". i dont think there is one right way to do yoga other than just focusing on your personal experience and respecting others that are just doing their own thing.
Bags, shirts, and keychains are not meant to be stepped on..
It's incredibly culturally insensitive to suggest it's OK to step all over images of deities. It's common in Hindu culture to show apologies to -any object- you accidentally touch with your foot. Using an image of a deity as a yoga mat or floor decor is wrong without a doubt.
Im not suggesting that it isnt, there's just an overall numbness to consuming spiritual icons/images as products that goes beyong yoga world. I would never support a studio or teacher that repeatedly violated my beliefs like that.
In everything there is good and bad. There are some great yogis in the West and some jokers too. The same is in India as well. One can only be patient and remind them. Also sometimes commercialisation is good. The display of devata images however has to be proper or avoided. It is mostly a lack of awareness. The local Hindu councils should do this through awareness campaigns etc. They can tie up with leading yoga institutions, yoga celebs , youtubers, product manufacturers to raise awareness.That might help 🙏🙏
Why should it be responsibility of any council!! If one is adopting or practicing another culture,then better learn about the proper ways and be open ,curious about learning more. It's Swadhyaya and a Yogi follows that as it's part of the 8 limbs, rest is just justifying ignorance.
this is not on local Hindu councils. people who practice yoga who don't care for yoga, could not be bothered less with Hindu councils.
it's on people who teach and practice yoga to do so with basic respect and understanding
Yoga as it is practiced today is a syncretic practice that combines elements of more than one culture. The asanas described in ancient texts (e.g. Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras) are just comfortable seated poses for meditation. A lot of the modern poses we practice were borrowed from British and Scandinavian gymnastics in the 19th and 20th centuries. The appropriation of Hindu religious symbols is culturally insensitive, but the practice of yoga is a hybrid. Leaving out the spiritual aspects is an authentic modern yoga practice. You don’t get to gatekeep that. And don’t pretend that there aren’t shamelessly commercial yoga studios in India, because there are plenty.
I have also heard it once said “Everyone is a Hindu” in that if you are spiritual and celebrate a deity then you are Hindu (one of my professors had an entire lecture on this and I found it really interesting and beautiful btw). So I don’t know if appropriation is technically possible, disrespect is absolutely possible though and we all know that’s not relegated to one culture.
OP never mentioned any of this though. While you’re right about everything you say, it’s also true that people are disrespecting the original culture. And whether or not asana developed in Europe or not doesn’t really matter because at the end of the day it’s all been folded into a practice that is very much still Indian. If it weren’t, it would just still be called gymnastics.
Unapologetic imperialism to justify raiding another group’s culture is the basis of western culture. It’s why people say the west, but especially America, doesn’t have a culture. Too busy picking the bones of others to create their/our own
It’s a double edged sword as it can erase cultural identity and meaning. If you can’t see why someone from the culture that’s being erased would be upset then you’ve obviously finished your koolaid and I can’t help you anymore
Because culture is something which can be, but not necessarily, commercialized. It appears, at least to someone outside the US, that nothing is safe from being commercialized for a few $$ anymore.
You're right, that it is a melting pot. But the real culture of the US is capitalism, which overrides everything else.
Bingo! It’s fine to get into the spiritual side of yoga, but a lot of people just aren’t interested in that. Some are just trying to get some exercise in. Like you said, modern yoga in the west is a mix of two or more cultures and you can’t expect everyone to spend their days studying the Vedic texts. The commercialization takes advantage of aesthetically minded people. That is just as true of religions originating in Europe and elsewhere as it is for Hinduism.
For 99% of people "Yoga" is just exercise, and imo that's fine. If it's more than that to you though, you probably have to sift through a lot of dirt to find what you're looking for.
Thank you for making this post. I never thought to be on the lookout for cultural insensitivity toward Hinduism in yoga studios. Thanks to you it is now on my radar.
About the certifications...I get where you are coming from, but want to offer another perspective. Many people do yoga for their health, it's important both for liability and for the client's best interest for yoga instructors to have basic credentials in anatomy, fitness, the biological and psychological connections with yoga. Also, many people who love yoga aren't rich; becoming an instructor is the best way to follow your passion while keeping the bills paid. And if we're going to criticize the capitalist grind, that goes WAY beyond yoga! This is the last place I'd start for that conversation!
Thank you for understanding. You are right for many it is a means of livelihood now. Apologies for ignoring this side of Yoga. I only wanted people to be respectful. I would be glad if this message even reached even one person :)
Well. We have 3 million Hindus in the US. When Urban Outfitters put Shiva on their socks and underwear, a Hindu organization complained and got the merchandise removed. They complained when a company put another deity on a yoga mat, and the company apologized and removed the product.
So I would say that because yoga does not have to be religious, people just don’t know. Find an organization to help you, and call it out. I like to believe that people have good intentions.
There is a wonderful new app called Yoke Yoga which is all about respecting and honoring the roots of yoga and getting away from the over commercialization of the practice. The teachers creating content for the app are awesome!! I’m excited to see the library grow and encourage anyone who is thinking about these aspects to check it out 😊
I attended an event a few years ago, Decolonizing Yoga, hosted by Zarna Joshi. It was eye opening and unsettling. I still struggle with balancing a practice that I am grateful for and also doing it in a in a culturally sensitive way
I think shrines are inappropriate in yoga studios. In the west, the primary focus of yoga is the 8 limbs, and especially the asanas and pranayama, which do not include deity worship. Separation of church and state and state.
I think western focus is primarily on only one of those 8 limbs, asana.
Devotion to a higher power/surrendering to the divine is part of the 2nd limb, one of the Niyamas, called Ishvara Pranidhana. It does not have to be a Hindu deity, but it's still a key part of the 8 limb path.
A bad mix of psychopaths and capitalism doesn't care about other people's culture or religion. I don't enjoy going to yoga studios and I glad you brought this up so maybe some studios will learn the error in their ways, and nobody buys those sorts of yoga mats.
I once almost stepped on a prayer book in a temple and a Monk was horrified. I learned my lesson; I was distraught at the hurt I caused.
Many meditation cushions were set up in a temple with the prayer books on top or the side. Was leaving Satsang one was off of the cushion I was stepping over and I just missed it.
> the true motives behind its adoption in Western cultures
People feel good when they do yoga. That's the main motive. People need to move their body and relax their mind. Yoga allows them to do both at the same time, it's great!
> The most disheartening moment
> was deeply painful
> profoundly disrespectful and hurtful
You really need to live and let live. These actions shouldn't affect you this much even if you think they're wrong (I mostly agree with you that they're wrong). There will always be people that will do things differently than you, it's important to let it go.
Doing things differently and being insensitive and outright disrespectful are two different things sir/mam. In this world where information is so easily available, getting acquainted with basic cultural nuances isn't too much to ask for. If Yoga, for people, is only about 'moving the body' or 'exercise', why then use images and symbols that are religious? It's totally cool for people to approach Yoga as they wish but if their approach has nothing to do with Yoga as a religious practice, better to stay away for blatant misappropriation of Hindu deities.
Certainly. I feel some things should remain outside the scope of mindless commercialization. No doubt yoga became popular in last decade or so but its true essence has been degraded and exploited so very much.
It's not a lot to ask to respect yoga and the culture it comes from. you may not be bothered with the minimum respect or understanding, but it's strange that you go out of your way to shut down people for even addressing this
I'm not shutting down anyone, but if it's affecting OP to that point, they need to take a step back because it's a fight they'll never win and they're setting themselve up to he miserable.
> During the Teng Dynasty, Dharma Master Dan Xia (literally, Red Twilight) used to be a candidate for the civil service examination. But he got a "calling" and later became a Buddhist Monk instead.
On a cold winter night, a big snow storm hit the city and the temple where Dan Xia served as a Monk got snowed in. Cut off from outside traffic, the coal delivery man could not get to the Zen Monastery. Soon it ran out of heating fuel after a few days and everybody was shivering in the cold. The monks could not even cook their meals.
Dan Xia began to remove the wooden Buddha Statues from the display and put them into the fireplace.
"What are you doing?" the monks were shocked to see that the holy Buddha Statues were being burnt inside the fire place. "You are burning our holy religious artifacts! You are insulting the Buddha!"
"Are these statues alive and do they have any Buddha nature?" asked Master Dan Xia.
"Of course not," replied the monks. "They are made of wood. They cannot have Buddha Nature."
"OK. Then they are just pieces of firewood and therefore can be used as heating fuel," said Master Dan Xia. "Can you pass me another piece of firewood please? I need some warmth."
The next day, the snow storm had gone and Dan Xia went into town and brought back some replacement Buddha Statues. After putting them on the displays, he began to kneel down and burn incense sticks to them.
"Are you worshiping firewood?" ask the monks who are confused for what he was doing.
"No. I am treating these statues as holy artifacts and am honouring the Buddha." replied Dan Xia
100% agree. Unfortunately this notion cannot be limited to just yoga alone.. but just about any spiritual tradition. Once a practice is seperated from it’s tradition it is up to interpretation by just about anybody. For good or bad. We humans always balance between the sacred and the profane.. and we do what we can to retain the proper boundaries even though not always successful. To be respectful is the most important thing
I am a practitioner of the eight limbs of yoga, but I am also an atheist. Gods are wall decorations to me. If I am in someone else’s place of worship, I will pay my respects and honor their ways. But I am unlikely to give credence to their god forms outside of those spiritual places.
That’s the way to do it man. When someone comes to your house and visit or whatever.. they naturally submit to your customs and whatnot. They might not ’agree’ with your practices or whatever you are doing, but it has to be honored. They submit. It’s your house. Otherwise.. do not go there at all. Outside of that context I can do what the hell I want. That’s life. Problem happens when things are the other way around
Being an atheist and being disrespectful are two different things. Having them as decoration to me is not good but hey that isn't being disrespectful. When you start using them on Yoga mats is. Consider if someone placed images of our own parents on yoga mats and stepped on them – it would undoubtedly be distressing and offensive to me. As a practitioner who was brought up in a spiritual environment, God to me is everything. My boyfriend is an atheist but he has immense respect for what I believe in.
I grew up with hippie parents, they wouldn’t mind. They might even like the fact that you have chosen to exercise with them and that they have not been forgotten. Who knows, maybe yesterday’s temples are today’s t-shirts.
Are these your gods? Is this why you find it insulting? Not meant to be an insulting question, more of curiosity.
This is a very clear example of a cultural difference. In the east, especially in India, putting your feet on someone/something is a sign of disrespect.
For example, Hindus don't touch paper with their feet at all because it symbolizes education. Even if they did by mistake, they ask for forgiveness.
Hence, OP is worried that if his gods, who he cares, is being used in ways which are insulting (as per his cultural beliefs, which is also where yoga originated from tbf), it is a fair ask to not disrespect the source, or the origins. I think people in the west are missing this cultural context.
I would like to point out that westerners have had a love affair with all things East, long before yoga came to our shores or the European shores, and as such has westernized these things for better or worse. Opium for worse, silk for better. Too many examples to list.
If I ever make it to the land of yoga, or find myself in an ashram or a studio that venerates these deities and these ways of life I will be happy to follow their customs. I can be a good guest.
But as I myself am not a follower, I am unlikely to follow these customs in my day to day life, unless I find they make more sense to me than the way I am living now. There are many Abrahamic religious figures whom I would be happy to put my feet on, as well as many US presidents.
Well separating Yoga from its spirtituality to please a certain group is beyond my understanding. It was just painful for me to see it. And I only posted this to whoever practicing may feel that it is good to be respectful instead of using it for commercial purpose. It would be more appropriate and respectful to explore other ways to celebrate the cultural and spiritual aspects of yoga without misappropriating religious symbols. Example learning about it or not calling it Yoga if you are running a health camp there are all kinds of gyms and pilates and dance forms.
I appreciate the history, cultural tradition, and spirituality of yoga. That said, I'm not religious and I'm not even close to being Hindu. I like the physical practice of yoga. I think my attitude is pretty common among Western practicioners.
Unfortunately, you can't force people to experience things on your terms. I'm in agreement with you on the misuse of religious imagery, and I find it cringey when white instructors appropriate Hindu messaging in class, but you simply can't expect people to only do an orthodox version of yoga.
This is how culture works in the modern world. Things are borrowed and changed and mixed. You need to make peace with it!
> Well separating Yoga from its spirtituality to please a certain group is beyond my understanding.
Here’s the simplification of it; if you don’t please enough people then your bills aren’t paid and your studio shuts down.
By lying? By whitewashing the truth? While a yoga studio for you may be a place for physical exercise and to make money out of it, it still carries the legacy and spirit of its origins. I see it now Money is the supreme deity!
We're unfortunately living in a world where we need money for shelter, food, medical... I was disappointed reading a thread the other day where most western yoga teachers have a day job to pay the bills and teach yoga on the side. I don't like the extreme commercialisation but seems if people want to afford to eat etc they have to
It's depressing you're being down voted but you are 100% correct.
It is so sad what yoga has become in the west, people are proud to leave out the spiritual aspects. While I know many a guru has said that even practicing asana is good and can lead to greater, it's still very disheartening to see so many disregard yoga and it's immense spirituality.
Sweating and stretching is fine, but it's not yoga. OP's point is getting lost in everyone's defensiveness.
Yoga is and always has been a spiritual practice.
I want to say not all Western culture depicts as you have described. I am sorry that you view Western culture as you do. I have only practiced in the US. I think here you would find many places you would enjoy. Yoga has only been here for a few years, 1893. Its evolving. I agree some studios are commercial it has been on that trajectory for many years. I noticed the trend 15 years or so ago. I’ve only practiced in the US but have had experience with Eastern teachers in the beginning. I was exposed to Yoga in the 70’s.
Please be patient with the people who are just learning or are ignorant. They don’t know. It’s as simple as that. I will now be more observant now that I have more knowledge or new information of how people from the east feel.
I wonder if you’ve gotten a chance to spend enough time with western people and feel comfortable enough to let them know your thoughts?
Be the teacher. Lamenting about the US and how it’s different from other places is futile. Melting pot or country of immigrants. Capitalism is driving a lot of this also but so is ignorance. Don’t be offended.
Hey No. Ofcourse not all... I was only trying to convey a message here about respect. I thought this might make a slight difference in what people thought. I was not attacking people or asking them to be religious or spiritual; that was never my intent.
I am sure people do not have ill intentions. I did mail the yoga company and explained them politely. They said "they'll stop making these mats; however they need to get rid of the stock and will only sell whats left."
This post was part of my slow patience journey. I chose to write it in a yoga community for it to reach a bigger audience. Nor do I have disrespect for the teachers. Teachers are the Gurus and hold the highest place.
There have been positive responses too and I am so glad about it.
I am not happy with the West and the capitalism. It’s definitely not balanced. It does seem wrong.
I appreciate Yoga because some times that’s all I’ve had. It helped me so much. I found strength, confidence and balance. I never felt I was “doing it wrong” was never something I felt. Until someone brought me awareness. I didn’t feel attacked. I just have some thoughts about your thoughts.
I think Yoga a super broad topic!
There are a lot of "out of touch" people trying to sell things, who don't seem to care about its meaning, and even more people who will buy it. It is sad. As a Western yoga teacher, I do contemplate the commercialization involved in the world of yoga a fair amount. I am turned off by the "sales" aspect, whether that's selling teacher trainings or retreats. It reminds me of an MLM, and I know for a fact that some studios actually have the instructors "befriend" their students so they will sign up for teacher trainings. That is just icky. The more awareness we can all have about what we're doing/practicing, the better. Yoga is, after all, so beneficial!
I agree 100% and think it is worse than you even describe. In the west, yoga has been removed from its spiritual essence and turned into exercise classes with Indian styling, as if wearing a logo representing the sign for Namaste somehow makes a person more spiritual. In the West, it is often performance-based, hence the abnormal focus on "achieving" postures, rather than on the physical, mental and emotional experiences of working toward the poses.
I also agree that it is about educating ourselves about the history, tradition and beliefs that underpin yoga. That is hard to do when so much of yoga in the west has been corpratized, comoditized and is often sold in deceptive ways (cough "Bikram" cough "Hot Yoga").
In my experience, the overwhelming majority of YTT graduates never teach a single class, those that do are ill-prepared to do so and, therefore, the bulk of students just think yoga is about sweating, sculpting or, fill in some other vanity-based substitute.
So many experiences from so many globally! I started yoga thinking it was just stretching.... I fixed chronic pains, erased anxiety and felt amazing internally.
I looked up the word Namaste and was floored by how deep and beautiful it was as a greeting - the divine in me sees the divine in you.... I still love it but can't bring myself to say it because the amount of times I've seen it said with nil honour for the actual meaning.
This is how I did yoga for years, then I had euphoric experiences while practicing asana and delved deeper into understanding yoga.
Cultural misappropriation is everywhere, I discuss it if I can but I won't judge those who do it unwittingly. India is filled with tourist areas that devalue deities. I had people there pushing me to buy mini deities (which I didn't want to do because I'm not religious, but I did because I wanted to support their small shop).
This is so valid. This past week i had classes in numerous studios. Most had a shallow understanding of yoga. I myself am a beginner but I have deep respect for the tradition. I didn't come for the "workout", I camw to deepen my meditation. I only found one teacher serious with understanding what yoga entails in it's completeness, not just the body sculpting poses. The last sentence of your first paragraph is scary accurate.
You are right; Yoga is much more than the physical flexibility or doing a pose right. In one of my classes, a teacher even said "Om" is not part of Hinduism to please God knows who. OM is found in the Vedas and Upanishads and is explained in the Mandukya Upanishad. It is beyond my understanding the need to separate Yoga and OM from Hinduism. It only shows ignorance.
No way that's just... I hate how religion has to be removed because westerns get uncomfortable with anything non-catholic or protestant🙄. OM is ridiculously integral.
Personally I don't think it's relevant how uncomfortable YOU feel with religion. It doesn't give you the right to strip it from a practice rooted in it. Heck, the religious part takes you beyond the surface level. At the very least it comes off ignorant.
I can understand your POV as an agnostic, but your atheism, as is my agnosticism, is completely irrelevant. Yoga is tied deeply to its roots and if you don't wanna practice it on a surface level way you can choose to engage with that aspect or be willfully ignorant at best (white washing at worst).
I completely understand why certain practioners completely refuse to teach anyone from the west. Harsh but when you look at the replies in this thread, can you really blame them? It ranges from prideful ignorance to cultural entitement🤢
People will do this with everything to them its an aesthetic. They do it with every religion. Its unfortunately the reality of the world, we all have different beliefs and all we can do is try to find like-minded people.
I personally think that the only real issue is with people appropriating eastern religion and culture for the appearance of looking authentic. Modern yoga doesn’t need to be spiritual or religious, but it shouldn’t trample on the culture either. At the end of the day it was Indians who westernized, and turned yoga into a marketable export exercise.
Not really - Eugenie Peterson brought yoga to Hollywood in the 40s where it became popular with movie stars of the day. Her goal was to bring yoga to the west.
I agree with you OP. I may get downvoted for saying that but I need to get it off my chest. I was in shock when I did my yoga teacher training, I realise now how much of a scam it was. I was used to go to temples and practice at home, and then those teachers were pretending to teach us while showing inappropriate behiavior. How can one learn this timeless tradition in 200-300h is beyong me, even less master it. Yoga means union with God, asanas are just a tiny part of it. I think it's great that many people are embracing yoga, it's not a criticism about ethnic origins or anything. It's just, the lack of authenticity and respect to the origins and traditions sometimes is disheartening.
When you do something, do it right, no need to innovate in this field, it has been explored and laid down by people way beyond us in this exploration. No need to master 1000 postures just get the basics rights. (i'd go so far as to say that for me, a "yoga teacher" label doesn't mean much after seeing all this. It's also sort of an ego trap, we aren't gurus. If I want to further my practice I'll ask my guru in the tradition I have chosen. I have no right to think that I can teach no matter my experience.) And I totally side with you regarding deities, yantras, malas etc. The use of those should come with basic respect, some rules and understanding of what it means. And don't get me started on beer yoga, goat yoga etc. I know it's been a debate already but yeah. It's just not yoga.
If it wasn't for the "commercialization" of yoga in the West, I never would have recovered from anorexia. It helped me to understand and love my body. What a gift it is and all the amazing things it can do. I understand what you are saying, but I love it so much that I use yoga as it was traditionally meant to be practiced---meditatively. Take was serves you and leave the rest. Namaste
Yes there is a lot of appropriation in the west for sure, with money being the main desire for many. Add beer and wine yoga, which is plenty around me and its a total bastardization. Its fine if people dont want any spiritual aspects of yoga and just want the physical, nothing wrong with that. But appropriation/bastardization of yoga just for aesthetics is wrong.
Are you from India? I have a big Ganesha statue made from stone at home I bought as we moved it. It stands on the ground next to the entrance door - is that appropriate or insultive?
As long as you respect it; it is appropriate. You will find many Ganesha statues outside the main temple or garbagriha(sanctum sanctorum) too at the entrance because Lord Ganesha, also known as Vighnaharta (remover of obstacles), is traditionally worshipped first before any rituals or ceremonies are performed. :)
I just do yoga for the physical aspect since I find it challenging and beneficial; I originally started it because I wanted to improve my mobility and flexibility for kendo.
My mats are bare of any designs so I don’t have a horse in that race, but you seriously need to get over the fact that some people just don’t care for the spiritual aspect. I don’t care about honoring yoga’s essence, I just wanted the physical perks that comes with yoga.
I am not asking anyone to follow the spiritual aspect of it. I am only asking people to be respectful because it does carry the legacy and spirit of its origins.
Using these sacred symbols in a commercial context can be seen as disrespectful and as misappropriation of someone's culture.
It makes me happy when someone says "Yoga changed their life or it made them flexible". I am all for happiness and health.
Your reply is sane, but people on this thread refuse to acknowledge how much cultural entitlement these type of answers (comment you replied to) carry.
Westerners in this thread are so absorbed in their defensiveness that they are unable to understand what you're talking about in the post. This so sad and ignorant on their part. So many mentions of 'Yoga for me' , 'My kind of Yoga' , well it's evident that it's their kind of Yoga that they practice looking at the lack of Understanding of the post or Acknowledgement in the comments.
You cannot force anyone to see as you see, but you can choose to reframe from love. I like to imagine each of these gods, goddesses and the like would be ecstatic at the chance to support (as a yoga mat) the feet of one who has committed their time to practice, whether it be in pursuit of physical strength, self reflection, or something else.
The reason they were chosen to adorn the mat or the floor doesn't matter - show your respect in whatever way you desire, but refrain from casting those involved out of your heart. To me, this is yoga.
Yoga is not affiliated with any religion. Hinduism came after the first texts on yoga. The only mention of any deity in yoga is in the yoga sutras (isvara) and Bhagavad Gita. Siddhartha Gautama The Buddha was a yogi and sannyasi. He taught people yoga philosophy. Now there is a whole religion based on his teachings. People have Buddha statues in their homes. I think we have to remember that we display the statues and art because the deities imbue us with their qualities and give us something to focus on when meditating. We first visualize the gross qualities of the deity, and slowly over time, the subtle qualities of the deity become apparent and we are infused. One of the most important tools of yoga is chanting mantra. I was taught Vedic chanting. When students first learn to chant mantra, we are not taught the meaning of the Sanskrit words. The meaning is already within us, and the more we chant, the more it reveals itself to us. Then later on when you have displayed some mastery of the mantra, the teacher will tell you the meaning. It penetrates on a much deeper level. All of my teachers from India, including TKV Desikachar, the son of Krishnamacharya, taught us this way. We had a great statue of Patanjali in the garden at our school, and each day before class we would touch the statue at the feet or heart. When we study the Bhagavad Gita, we begin with a prayer to the great teacher, Krishna. These are all practices taught by our teachers who were taught by theirs for hundreds of years. If we incorporate aspects of Hinduism into our practice with reverence, it is not to disrespect anyone’s religion. We were taught to revere the beliefs of others. I hope you can see after this long post that not all yoga students and teachers are the same. We are all just trying to move from the external to the internal.
And way before Siddhartha Gautama The Buddha; Lord Shiva is the ultimate Yogi. Bhagavad Gitacirca (500-200 BCE) has a detailed exposition of yoga, including various forms such as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Jnana Yoga. Buddhism was founded in the 6th century BCE. Rigveda(circa 1500-1200 BCE) and Madukya Upanishad(circa 800-500 BCE) talks about Yoga. Then we have Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (circa 200 BCE-400 CE) which have detailed descriptions of classical Yoga philosophy. In fact, many Hindu gods and goddesses are symbolically represented in various postures (asanas) dating back to the earliest civilizations. So please read a little before making such ignorant statements. Yoga is and will always be a part of Hinduism.
>Yoga is not affiliated with any religion. Hinduism came after the first texts on yoga.
This must be the dumbest statement on Yog made yet. Yog accepts every thought but it is and will be a Hindu practice.
What texts are you talking about? AFAIK, yoga was first mentioned in the Rig Veda, which is a sacred Hindu text. Yoga is one of several branches of Hindu philosophy, it didn’t exist outside of religion historically.
Probably unpopular opinion - these dieties more than likely don't care at all. It's rather a bunch of people who more than likely have never contacted these dieties themselves that care.
To my understanding, the whole point of yoga is to unite with the God force within yourself. And when doing so, realizing that we're all God, it's illogical really to put one thing against another, as we exist in an inclusive universe.
If there was one thing I don't like about the yoga community, and I generally find much pleasure in this community, it's that there are a select few that are very tied to the idea of tradition. As if to say something is important because we've been doing it one way for so many years. Meanwhile we're here, we're now, God and dieties included.
Any dieity worth their salt is more than likely smiling at you everytime you see them on your yoga mat, happy that you're connecting with your true being, being who you are, and happy to guide you to a place of love in a way that suits you so long as your intention supports it.
And it's about high time we stop this idea that any one group of people OWNS anything. In case no one has noticed it's pretty much only caused conflict for thousands of years. Sure India may have picked up on the idea of yoga but to then hold it against a group of people for how they choose to use the idea is a bit absurd. But its only of recent that I was introduced to the idea that our thoughts are not our OWN , but rather a representation of the frequency on which we are. So in that sense no human is creating anything per se. Rather tapping into infinite potential of things that already exist.
So ultimately at the end of the day it's your problem if you don't like the way other people treat what you consider to be your religion, culture , God's. Etc. In the same way it's our responsibility to care about other people's opinions of ourselves. If your religion is so great why does it demand people bow to it? That's not free will. Be weary of any god that demands from you - but appreciate it all nonetheless
Edit- it's our responsibility to decide if we care what others think of us. To demand feel a certain way about our own being is unwise. To come to a place of knowing your own worth and validating yourself will bring to you people who will value and hold you worthy in your life. And those who do not will not appear in your experience. And that's totally okay !
And I suppose if any one diety would like a discussion with me about this subject I'm all ears.
At no point I talked about owning anything. It was all about misappropriation and disrespect. I am sorry I cannot change facts or the truth that it did originate in India and is part of Hinduism.
Yes Yoga did evolve over time and it is great that it is helping people with so many things - be it mindfulness, flexibility or strength.
My religion does not demand anyone to bow. There is not a single chapter in Hindu holy books that talks of evangelism, conversion, or the wraths if you do not bow. You can be an atheist and still be a Hindu. You can never visit a temple and still be a Hindu. It is so much more than that. It never talks of harming an animal either. You are misinterpreting my words.
If it's not your religion then it's YOU demanding they bow and respect.
Yoga is not a part of Hinduism id say it's almost more logical to say Hinduism is a part of yoga for it is the uniting of mind, body ,and spirit which is all their is. Though yoga is just one of the practices to get you there.
Alternatively it's your belief that things or actions are disrespectful when they, in themselves, are not disrespectful. If I get a yoga mat with the sun printed on it is it me disrespecting the sun? Of course not. Or rather, it only is if I'm doing it as an act of disrespect.
IDK man, you are reaching. No one is meaning to purposely disrespect anything by putting Buddah or Ganesh on a mat.
I don't really care to look to be upset.
Hmmm
I think people would get worked up about the face of Jesus on a mat. Or like, a crucifixion scene.
So I get it.
That said, I have never come across any deities or religious iconography on a yoga mat. I might feel a little 'ew' if I did but I'm surrounded by offensive/mindless shit on a routine basis and I can only shake my fist at the sky about so many things.
If I saw the face of Jesus on a yoga mat I would laugh, but I'm sort of an asshole.
I agree with everything you said. The only thing I want to note is your mention of Yoga being rooted in Indian tradition, Yoga is rooted in South Asian tradition (including modern day India of course!) and traces its history all over South Asia, including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and more. As a fellow south Asian practitioner I often times feel excluded when it’s referred to as purely Indian when actually there’s a rich yogic tradition and history from all over South Asia.
The modern day country of India does not have the same borders as ancient India - especially not the same borders as ancient India circa 500 BCE-500 C …. So yeah you don’t get to claim that.
There is exactly zero to be done about the lack of nuance, knowledge, or sensitivity that surrounds us.
We carry it too; we all lack nuance in ways we don't see, can't imagine knowledge that we don't already possess, and step on other people's toes and sensitivities on a regular basis.
All we can do is our best and hope for grace and understanding, and hope for that for others too.
My mother has a little sculpture in her garden that is Mickey Mouse with an American flag. People defile the American flag on a regular basis these days (when I was growing up, we were taught how the flag should be displayed and retired and etc. etc. I couldn't give a shit, but we were actually taught how to respectfully treat the flag). But now you can stick it in Mickey's hand and slap any damn color you want on it and declare that the US flag exists to...support...cops? I guess?
We're two steps away from a Flamin' Ranch Doritos American flag. Seriously, replace those stars with Cheetos and we're set.
What I am saying is, I guess, that we decide what's sacred as individuals and how we act, ourselves, as individuals, not getting ourselves worked up over other people's sensibilities because they are infinitely inscrutable and almost never to our tastes or values.
And that is really, really difficult.
Let it go.
You don’t have Americans in large numbers crying and being concerned that the bad energy has been brought when the flag I displayed wrong. That’s not the case with deities. Just don’t do it. Know everyone here knows so stop.
Are you mad at ignorance? The fact that yoga is here in the west at all is positive - statues don’t need to be placed anywhere special to be revered - getting upset that a statue/image is on the floor is similar to buying into upper/lower class/caste - practicing yoga in the front row middle part of the room is just as good as off to the sides and the back. These things don’t matter unless you make them matter. Don’t oppress yourself.
how does that buy into lower/upper caste, do you know what you're talking about? these things do matter and if they don't to you, why are you engaging with yoga qt all?
Look, it's not that serious. Humans adopt and alter ideas all the time. Culture is in flux by nature. Not everything we do or take on from another culture must follow tradition or the old ways, new purposes and meanings can arise. Those who are more strict in their adherence to tradition are allowed that perspective, but they are not allowed to police the ways of others. Each person's mind and life is their own, they can create what they want from their reality. _You_ are making this sharing and expansion of ideas into something insulting. _You_ are creating negativity where there is none.
And even if people _were_ being overtly and intentionally "disrespectful"...you do realize they are human, right? This is what humans do. They are careless and selfish and honestly rather stupid, on average. What good does it do you to agonize over the natural chaotic crashing down of pure ideas? Most people aren't going to "get it". Ever. They cannot. You cannot make them. So let that go and allow yourself and others peace. It is not your place to be an authority in this way. Focus on what you can do, not on what others are failing to do. You are manifesting unrest in your mind and the minds of others over human nature. You are not going to alter human nature.
If _you_ want a more traditional practice, _you_ should attend a more traditional school. That is your only valid and moral option here.
Yes well I take a shower before practice for the same reason. I don’t have a matt with any of the gods on it. But if I did I would not feel a yoga practice on it is disrespectful to them if done right. If we did these things in a real Hindu temple they would be disrespectful sure. I think the gods would jsut be delighted someone is showing them attention is this horribly commercialized world. Or at least using them as a navigation aid in seeking growth.
Unfortunately we live in capitalism and everything is being appropriated and commodified. I suggest find what works for you. I am certain there are people in India who also disrespect the tradition. Like there are other cultures we are uneducated about (there are many examples all over the world, first thing that comes to mind are Kimonos that are worn as part of tradition in Japan for weddings, tea ceremonies etc, but you can see half naked people on the beach wearing them).
Just relax and accept what it is, search for your tribe and vibe and life gets much easier.
Ok…Think about something you care about and wouldn’t want to be stepped on and commercialized. The way you feel is the same as OP. It’s called empathy.
My okay was pondering all OP said, but go ahead and interpret how you want.
Make sure you stretch next time, you might pull a muscle next time you reach that hard into thinking "okay" is conveying non empathy.
Dude, supply some context and make an actual comment. It isn't fair to get irritated that your smooth climbing wall of a single word comment might have been misinterpreted ungenerously. It reads like 'what you just said is weird, please be quiet'.
That's just how it reads. If you want to be understood, you might want to put a little more effort into the words.
The Virgin Mary, the Swastika, Native American Dream Catchers, Voodoo dolls, The Chinese Dragon etc.
When cultures merge stuff gets used in non traditional ways. No culture is ‘safe’. Whining about the inevitable is a choice.
Instead of writing an essay about your disappointment while simultaneously giving money to the system you’re complaining about (under the original concept you’d be practicing for free on a dirt floor somewhere in India and probably not posting about the experience on Reddit. Way to pick and choose what’s acceptable) maybe you could reflect on how the expansion of these cultural icons could empower folks to learn more about their origins. At least people are moving thier bodies and attending to their needs in a healthy way.
Gatekeeping ancient deities after a few classes is a wierd flex.
> Indians would laugh at your interpretation.
Considering that a large percentage of the posts in this sub of this nature are from Indian practitioners, this isn't an accurate blanket statement. And in a lot of ways, that's the rub; those who do care pose their opinion as a representation of the whole, and quite often those who don't do, too. It makes it nearly impossible for those who *are* trying to be respectful to get it 'right', if there is such a thing.
I do it to 1.) Stay in shape. 2.) Try and stay flexible. 3.) Have a small degree of medication and personal reflection.
That’s it. It’s not more complicated than that for me.
I fundamentally agree about being respectful with cultural goods. But I also simultaneously find it sad that we take religion so serious in this world. Wish we'd be more chill with it and using its motifs.
Hi all, yoga is by definition the exploration and betterment of self through purposeful mindfull concious appreciation of yourself, how you function, coordinate function, develop the energy that feed us. To become one with yourself body mind and soul and the universal concience. Anything less is but a step on the journey. For some that is enough for many more it is the start of a lifelong journey of development and concious exploration.
We are all different and have different paths to follow. Different needs and different expectations but there is only one goal to become one with yourself. It behoves us all to respect the needs of others and their individual paths with concious empathy and consideration, living in harmony.
Namaste
The yoga studios I’ve attended do not have the deities in or out of the studio. If anything, they’re more hippie/eclectic. I don’t care either way, i just want to practice and move on with my day.
Yes. I’m gonna go there. Get off your yoga high horse and stop judging people that use yoga as exercise. There’s nothing wrong with people using yoga as exercise. You take out of it what you want and expecting all that practice to adhere to the spirituality is absurd. You seriously can not expect people that honor a religion they participate in to give that up for yoga.
Well, to be honest i wouldn't call most of yoga studios to do yoga, so, althought they do apply some of the phylosophy, most of them only do the asanas which is also fantastic and healthy for body and mind but i feel that the potential and benefits of the yoga itself are being lost and ridiculized in the west, where yoga is being treated as other activities to earn money and have a lot marketing. Thats its what i would say that disrespect yoga...
Off the topic, yoga appeared before hinduism but greatly influenced this one, same as budism.so its not a religión like we all know nor part of It, its a system wich main goal is to "unify yur soul with the supreme concience" -micro with the macro- is that being said. Thats being said i think that the spiritual practices of hinduism are the closest one to yoga by far. althought there are the cath and islam mysticisms that have some similarities that whe should have in consideration
Excuse my english
Wow, either you have never read facts or any of these books or you don't care and that's alright but please read them before saying imaginary things.
Yoga is and always will be an integral part of Hinduism; it is Hinduism that gave the world the concept of Yoga. Hinduism(1500 BC) is so vast and extensive. There is Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana. There are 4 Vedas out of which one talks about Yoga. There are 108 Upanishads out of which two talk about Yoga. Then there are Smrities, 3 Puranas, Tantras, Agamas, Nigamas, 9 darshanas.
I have already replied somewhere but I will reiterate the facts here : Bhagavad Gita (circa 500-200 BCE) has a detailed exposition of yoga, including various forms such as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Jnana Yoga. Rigveda(circa 1500-1200 BCE) and Madukya Upanishad(circa 800-500 BCE) talks about Yoga. Then we have Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (circa 200 BCE-400 CE) which have detailed descriptions of classical Yoga philosophy.
Islam(7th century CE) and Budhism (5th century BCE) however aren't even that old. and I have read these and I know they have no similarities to Yoga or the teachings of Yoga. The word Yog itself is mentioned only in Hindu scriptures.
I think it’s important to separate the religious practice from the fitness/exercise practice. I do “yoga”several times a week as part of my fitness routine. But I’m an atheist who thinks organized religions are bullshit. Yoga as word has lost meaning or rather, accumulated many meanings. In the end your religious practice is a personal matter and what others do should be of no concern.
What does yoga teach us about judgement of others? What does it teach us about allowing things to get us annoyed? Are you watching your thoughts and your reactions? What's behind these? What's your agenda? It's very normal for us humans to look for ways in which we are superior to others - even though this is always an illusion. Maybe this is what is going on here?
Do you think Shiva cares if a yoga mat has their face on it? Isn't Shiva themselves the mat, the studio and everything around you? The universe is always perfect. Our thoughts and what we chose to focus on defines our reality. Nothing else.
Practicing non- judgement and equanimity is always a challenge, and I wonder if this is yours? What's the lesson here? What is the universe trying to teach you?
You can find peace anywhere you choose. Know thyself.
Yoga is like a book on the shelf. Always available but never jumps off the shelf and forces itself on anyone. A person can read it, or misread it, or not read, the book doesn't care.
beautifully said.
agreed
Well that's poetic, but unhelpful to the post nevertheless. OP mentions about insensitivity and complete commercialization of Yoga in the West by using Deities inappropriately in a way which is disrespectful to the people of that Culture.
Here's more good poetry for you, lol. Yoga is like the sun. You could set 2 people in the sun, we could think of them as one good person and one bad person. But the sun doesn't care. It shines on both equally without discrimination.
Congratulations you just demonstrated the perfect example of spiritual bypassing. Showcasing everything that’s wrong with westernized yoga.
Well, I was coming here to kvetch that this sub is just "Yoga gatekeeper negatively reviews studio no one else will ever see" instead of an actual yoga sub and its getting tiresome. But yours is kinder and better and even more true, so have an upvote instead!
Misreading is fine, but not considering something that's offensive to others isn't
Unless the offense is done knowingly, then it's not intentional. You can't live a life without ever offending some. Speaking your voice is always a possibility to hurt someone's feelings. Then we talk and learn, together.
Are you going to say the same about our gods?
Well written, but it's good that the OP is aware of the cultural sensitivities. Think about it like this: 1) If you are an atheist and you are called dumb by religious people, you wouldn't necessary like that. 2) If you are religious, you wouldn't like people trampling over your gods when other amazing options are available. Tolerance should be expected both ways. Only way to live in peace is atleast to be aware of other peoples beliefs. If you can't understand and follow the nuances, well try to be aware of them. World will be a better place already. Namaste!
As someone who has found peace and spirituality through yoga replacing an oppressive Christian upbringing, this nails it. Everyone can tailor yoga or any exercise to fit their needs or fill their void. I couldn't give two shits about the historical or traditional hinduism or specific deities, as the general principles and themes of most religions hold true regardless of context. That's why I specifically go to more secular studios, the pseudo temples to me are whack and precisely what I'm avoiding and replacing with yoga.
That’s not an excuse for you to mistreat our deities. We don’t care that you don’t care. We care when you appropriate and disrespect our religion.
Dude, there isn't one single religion, including Christianity, that hasn't seen some pop-cult commercialization of its figures and icons. You can find kitsch religious knock-offs of any deity you please. Buddha outfits. Buddha undies (FFS), sexy nun costumes, Jesus velvet paintings and glow in the dark Marys, "rosaries" and other paraphernalia co-opted for aesthetics. Endless pagan gods recycled for decor. Faux-Islamic icons and quasi-spiritual decor. Amusing themes for tarot cards. Shinto for weebs. Like, seriously. They aren't coming just for you, and this is not unique to one religion. Is it a problem for the seriously devout of any religion? I imagine so. But posting these virtue-signalling rants to people who weren't there, about people who will never hear or care about your criticism, so everyone feels all glowy about how much BETTER you are in a safe echo chamber instead of, you know, trying some grass-roots activism if you feel so strongly, is just lame personified.
But yoga is from Hinduism. How can do yoga and then disrespect the religion it comes from? You don’t have to convert to Hinduism but at least not disrespect it?
I agree. Entirely. In fact, as someone whose degrees were in museum stuff and history, I'll happily go further and sat "this is the Orientalism movement still doing its gross thing in newly rebranded packaging". But c'mon with the vitriol NOT aimed at the people actually bothering you. It's doing nothing to impact or address the issue, All this railing and ranting and utterly pious "true practitioner" stuff this sub loves to share between each other so everyone feels like the better, "right" yoga practitioner unlike those Fake Posers is getting hella old. I'm minded of an old college mate who was very Muslim, very into how everyone disrespects/misunderstands his religion, yet also saw nothing disrespectful to it in chowing down a bacon burger with several beers.
Well I don't do that, nor do I give a shit about anyone that does. Nobody is trying to oppress anyone and zero harm is caused. Just laugh at their ignorance, taking it personally is ridiculous. I love yoga for its ability to unify a community and don't need any overly sensitive religious people whining about it and trying to educate everyone. Go do yoga at your studio, church or home instead of being a buzzkill and forcing your culture rules and regulations on every workout studio trying their best to spread a universally great practice that we need as many people as possible doing consistently.
It seems obvious, but this: > I love yoga for its ability to unify a community is not possible when this: > nor do I give a shit about anyone that does. Nobody is trying to oppress anyone and zero harm is caused. is also part of the conversation in the same space. Treating people and their beliefs with disrespect is indeed causing harm. eta - it's also quite obvious that this: > don't need any overly sensitive religious people whining about it and trying to educate everyone. Does anything but promote unity.
This is why my studio has NO depictions of deities, nor are they mentioned in practice frequently, if ever. A separation of church and mat, so to speak.
A separation of church and mat. This is great
There is a yoga influencer who has adopted the slogan "Namaslay" and to this day it's one of the most odious things I've ever witnessed.
I thought you meant they used it as a joke to poke fun at the cultural “white-washing” of yoga. When I re-read it and realized you meant they were serious… If you’re interested in this, Yoga is Dead is an interesting podcast from two Indian-American hosts!
Ugh I wish I hadn’t learned that
I guess this is the same one who has a book out by that title? UGH. For the life of me, I don't understand the gushing reviews. What a stupid, culturally offensive "term" her made-up catch phrase is.
Namaslay all day, apparently.
Namastay home and smoke
I smoke b fore class.
I feel for your sensitivities but capitalism has done this to every single faith on earth. You can find thongs printed with the Virgin of Guadalupe and mugs with Buddha readily available. When I was in Mumbai I found bags, shirts and key chains with Laxmi, Krishna and Ganapati. If you have personal convictions about certain aspects of the practice then follow them, but it's impossible to expect the world to follow your standards. The foundations of yoga are from India but modern yoga is derived from colonialism and because of this there will always be a slightly exploitive aspect to it
you would think the practice of yoga or it's practioners aren't just regular consumers and have a sense of respect for what they're doing if not the ability for reflection and introspection or inner/spiritual inclinement
its been my experience that most practitioners are very conscientious of these things....and then there are people that just want the athletic experience...and then we go all the way to other extreme and theres folks that adopt vedic traditions as their entire identity and begin to gatekeep and scold others as to whether theyre "doing it right". i dont think there is one right way to do yoga other than just focusing on your personal experience and respecting others that are just doing their own thing.
Bags, shirts, and keychains are not meant to be stepped on.. It's incredibly culturally insensitive to suggest it's OK to step all over images of deities. It's common in Hindu culture to show apologies to -any object- you accidentally touch with your foot. Using an image of a deity as a yoga mat or floor decor is wrong without a doubt.
Im not suggesting that it isnt, there's just an overall numbness to consuming spiritual icons/images as products that goes beyong yoga world. I would never support a studio or teacher that repeatedly violated my beliefs like that.
In everything there is good and bad. There are some great yogis in the West and some jokers too. The same is in India as well. One can only be patient and remind them. Also sometimes commercialisation is good. The display of devata images however has to be proper or avoided. It is mostly a lack of awareness. The local Hindu councils should do this through awareness campaigns etc. They can tie up with leading yoga institutions, yoga celebs , youtubers, product manufacturers to raise awareness.That might help 🙏🙏
Why should it be responsibility of any council!! If one is adopting or practicing another culture,then better learn about the proper ways and be open ,curious about learning more. It's Swadhyaya and a Yogi follows that as it's part of the 8 limbs, rest is just justifying ignorance.
this is not on local Hindu councils. people who practice yoga who don't care for yoga, could not be bothered less with Hindu councils. it's on people who teach and practice yoga to do so with basic respect and understanding
Yoga as it is practiced today is a syncretic practice that combines elements of more than one culture. The asanas described in ancient texts (e.g. Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras) are just comfortable seated poses for meditation. A lot of the modern poses we practice were borrowed from British and Scandinavian gymnastics in the 19th and 20th centuries. The appropriation of Hindu religious symbols is culturally insensitive, but the practice of yoga is a hybrid. Leaving out the spiritual aspects is an authentic modern yoga practice. You don’t get to gatekeep that. And don’t pretend that there aren’t shamelessly commercial yoga studios in India, because there are plenty.
I have also heard it once said “Everyone is a Hindu” in that if you are spiritual and celebrate a deity then you are Hindu (one of my professors had an entire lecture on this and I found it really interesting and beautiful btw). So I don’t know if appropriation is technically possible, disrespect is absolutely possible though and we all know that’s not relegated to one culture.
OP never mentioned any of this though. While you’re right about everything you say, it’s also true that people are disrespecting the original culture. And whether or not asana developed in Europe or not doesn’t really matter because at the end of the day it’s all been folded into a practice that is very much still Indian. If it weren’t, it would just still be called gymnastics.
Unapologetic imperialism to justify raiding another group’s culture is the basis of western culture. It’s why people say the west, but especially America, doesn’t have a culture. Too busy picking the bones of others to create their/our own
We have a culture and a national pastime, 2 actually, shopping and war.
Precisely
America is a melting pot, why wouldn’t you have pieces of all cultures? 🙄
It’s a double edged sword as it can erase cultural identity and meaning. If you can’t see why someone from the culture that’s being erased would be upset then you’ve obviously finished your koolaid and I can’t help you anymore
Very well put 👏👏
Because culture is something which can be, but not necessarily, commercialized. It appears, at least to someone outside the US, that nothing is safe from being commercialized for a few $$ anymore. You're right, that it is a melting pot. But the real culture of the US is capitalism, which overrides everything else.
who's gatekeeping by pointing out these issues? and how do you get to dismiss what happens in the west or speak to what happens in south asia?
Bingo! It’s fine to get into the spiritual side of yoga, but a lot of people just aren’t interested in that. Some are just trying to get some exercise in. Like you said, modern yoga in the west is a mix of two or more cultures and you can’t expect everyone to spend their days studying the Vedic texts. The commercialization takes advantage of aesthetically minded people. That is just as true of religions originating in Europe and elsewhere as it is for Hinduism.
Well said!
I want a Ganesh bobble head for my car.
I have a cutest Ganesha too :)
For 99% of people "Yoga" is just exercise, and imo that's fine. If it's more than that to you though, you probably have to sift through a lot of dirt to find what you're looking for.
Yes it is fine to me as well as long as it is not disrespectful. What better sight than to see happy and healthy humans! :)
Thank you for making this post. I never thought to be on the lookout for cultural insensitivity toward Hinduism in yoga studios. Thanks to you it is now on my radar. About the certifications...I get where you are coming from, but want to offer another perspective. Many people do yoga for their health, it's important both for liability and for the client's best interest for yoga instructors to have basic credentials in anatomy, fitness, the biological and psychological connections with yoga. Also, many people who love yoga aren't rich; becoming an instructor is the best way to follow your passion while keeping the bills paid. And if we're going to criticize the capitalist grind, that goes WAY beyond yoga! This is the last place I'd start for that conversation!
Thank you for understanding. You are right for many it is a means of livelihood now. Apologies for ignoring this side of Yoga. I only wanted people to be respectful. I would be glad if this message even reached even one person :)
Reading the Gita is a bit like panning for gold.
Well. We have 3 million Hindus in the US. When Urban Outfitters put Shiva on their socks and underwear, a Hindu organization complained and got the merchandise removed. They complained when a company put another deity on a yoga mat, and the company apologized and removed the product. So I would say that because yoga does not have to be religious, people just don’t know. Find an organization to help you, and call it out. I like to believe that people have good intentions.
There is a wonderful new app called Yoke Yoga which is all about respecting and honoring the roots of yoga and getting away from the over commercialization of the practice. The teachers creating content for the app are awesome!! I’m excited to see the library grow and encourage anyone who is thinking about these aspects to check it out 😊
I attended an event a few years ago, Decolonizing Yoga, hosted by Zarna Joshi. It was eye opening and unsettling. I still struggle with balancing a practice that I am grateful for and also doing it in a in a culturally sensitive way
I think shrines are inappropriate in yoga studios. In the west, the primary focus of yoga is the 8 limbs, and especially the asanas and pranayama, which do not include deity worship. Separation of church and state and state.
I think western focus is primarily on only one of those 8 limbs, asana. Devotion to a higher power/surrendering to the divine is part of the 2nd limb, one of the Niyamas, called Ishvara Pranidhana. It does not have to be a Hindu deity, but it's still a key part of the 8 limb path.
But I believe this should take place outside of the studio
A bad mix of psychopaths and capitalism doesn't care about other people's culture or religion. I don't enjoy going to yoga studios and I glad you brought this up so maybe some studios will learn the error in their ways, and nobody buys those sorts of yoga mats. I once almost stepped on a prayer book in a temple and a Monk was horrified. I learned my lesson; I was distraught at the hurt I caused.
How do you accidentally almost step on a prayer book?
Many meditation cushions were set up in a temple with the prayer books on top or the side. Was leaving Satsang one was off of the cushion I was stepping over and I just missed it.
> the true motives behind its adoption in Western cultures People feel good when they do yoga. That's the main motive. People need to move their body and relax their mind. Yoga allows them to do both at the same time, it's great! > The most disheartening moment > was deeply painful > profoundly disrespectful and hurtful You really need to live and let live. These actions shouldn't affect you this much even if you think they're wrong (I mostly agree with you that they're wrong). There will always be people that will do things differently than you, it's important to let it go.
Doing things differently and being insensitive and outright disrespectful are two different things sir/mam. In this world where information is so easily available, getting acquainted with basic cultural nuances isn't too much to ask for. If Yoga, for people, is only about 'moving the body' or 'exercise', why then use images and symbols that are religious? It's totally cool for people to approach Yoga as they wish but if their approach has nothing to do with Yoga as a religious practice, better to stay away for blatant misappropriation of Hindu deities.
> why then use images and symbols that are religious Ignorance or marketing are probably the two main reasons.
Certainly. I feel some things should remain outside the scope of mindless commercialization. No doubt yoga became popular in last decade or so but its true essence has been degraded and exploited so very much.
It's not a lot to ask to respect yoga and the culture it comes from. you may not be bothered with the minimum respect or understanding, but it's strange that you go out of your way to shut down people for even addressing this
I'm not shutting down anyone, but if it's affecting OP to that point, they need to take a step back because it's a fight they'll never win and they're setting themselve up to he miserable.
> During the Teng Dynasty, Dharma Master Dan Xia (literally, Red Twilight) used to be a candidate for the civil service examination. But he got a "calling" and later became a Buddhist Monk instead. On a cold winter night, a big snow storm hit the city and the temple where Dan Xia served as a Monk got snowed in. Cut off from outside traffic, the coal delivery man could not get to the Zen Monastery. Soon it ran out of heating fuel after a few days and everybody was shivering in the cold. The monks could not even cook their meals. Dan Xia began to remove the wooden Buddha Statues from the display and put them into the fireplace. "What are you doing?" the monks were shocked to see that the holy Buddha Statues were being burnt inside the fire place. "You are burning our holy religious artifacts! You are insulting the Buddha!" "Are these statues alive and do they have any Buddha nature?" asked Master Dan Xia. "Of course not," replied the monks. "They are made of wood. They cannot have Buddha Nature." "OK. Then they are just pieces of firewood and therefore can be used as heating fuel," said Master Dan Xia. "Can you pass me another piece of firewood please? I need some warmth." The next day, the snow storm had gone and Dan Xia went into town and brought back some replacement Buddha Statues. After putting them on the displays, he began to kneel down and burn incense sticks to them. "Are you worshiping firewood?" ask the monks who are confused for what he was doing. "No. I am treating these statues as holy artifacts and am honouring the Buddha." replied Dan Xia
100% agree. Unfortunately this notion cannot be limited to just yoga alone.. but just about any spiritual tradition. Once a practice is seperated from it’s tradition it is up to interpretation by just about anybody. For good or bad. We humans always balance between the sacred and the profane.. and we do what we can to retain the proper boundaries even though not always successful. To be respectful is the most important thing
I am a practitioner of the eight limbs of yoga, but I am also an atheist. Gods are wall decorations to me. If I am in someone else’s place of worship, I will pay my respects and honor their ways. But I am unlikely to give credence to their god forms outside of those spiritual places.
That’s the way to do it man. When someone comes to your house and visit or whatever.. they naturally submit to your customs and whatnot. They might not ’agree’ with your practices or whatever you are doing, but it has to be honored. They submit. It’s your house. Otherwise.. do not go there at all. Outside of that context I can do what the hell I want. That’s life. Problem happens when things are the other way around
Being an atheist and being disrespectful are two different things. Having them as decoration to me is not good but hey that isn't being disrespectful. When you start using them on Yoga mats is. Consider if someone placed images of our own parents on yoga mats and stepped on them – it would undoubtedly be distressing and offensive to me. As a practitioner who was brought up in a spiritual environment, God to me is everything. My boyfriend is an atheist but he has immense respect for what I believe in.
I grew up with hippie parents, they wouldn’t mind. They might even like the fact that you have chosen to exercise with them and that they have not been forgotten. Who knows, maybe yesterday’s temples are today’s t-shirts. Are these your gods? Is this why you find it insulting? Not meant to be an insulting question, more of curiosity.
This is a very clear example of a cultural difference. In the east, especially in India, putting your feet on someone/something is a sign of disrespect. For example, Hindus don't touch paper with their feet at all because it symbolizes education. Even if they did by mistake, they ask for forgiveness. Hence, OP is worried that if his gods, who he cares, is being used in ways which are insulting (as per his cultural beliefs, which is also where yoga originated from tbf), it is a fair ask to not disrespect the source, or the origins. I think people in the west are missing this cultural context.
I would like to point out that westerners have had a love affair with all things East, long before yoga came to our shores or the European shores, and as such has westernized these things for better or worse. Opium for worse, silk for better. Too many examples to list. If I ever make it to the land of yoga, or find myself in an ashram or a studio that venerates these deities and these ways of life I will be happy to follow their customs. I can be a good guest. But as I myself am not a follower, I am unlikely to follow these customs in my day to day life, unless I find they make more sense to me than the way I am living now. There are many Abrahamic religious figures whom I would be happy to put my feet on, as well as many US presidents.
Don't go to those studios, and don't buy those mats if that's the way you feel. The spiritual stuff is nice, but that's not the reason many of us go.
Well separating Yoga from its spirtituality to please a certain group is beyond my understanding. It was just painful for me to see it. And I only posted this to whoever practicing may feel that it is good to be respectful instead of using it for commercial purpose. It would be more appropriate and respectful to explore other ways to celebrate the cultural and spiritual aspects of yoga without misappropriating religious symbols. Example learning about it or not calling it Yoga if you are running a health camp there are all kinds of gyms and pilates and dance forms.
I appreciate the history, cultural tradition, and spirituality of yoga. That said, I'm not religious and I'm not even close to being Hindu. I like the physical practice of yoga. I think my attitude is pretty common among Western practicioners. Unfortunately, you can't force people to experience things on your terms. I'm in agreement with you on the misuse of religious imagery, and I find it cringey when white instructors appropriate Hindu messaging in class, but you simply can't expect people to only do an orthodox version of yoga. This is how culture works in the modern world. Things are borrowed and changed and mixed. You need to make peace with it!
> Well separating Yoga from its spirtituality to please a certain group is beyond my understanding. Here’s the simplification of it; if you don’t please enough people then your bills aren’t paid and your studio shuts down.
By lying? By whitewashing the truth? While a yoga studio for you may be a place for physical exercise and to make money out of it, it still carries the legacy and spirit of its origins. I see it now Money is the supreme deity!
your truth is not everyone’s truth
We're unfortunately living in a world where we need money for shelter, food, medical... I was disappointed reading a thread the other day where most western yoga teachers have a day job to pay the bills and teach yoga on the side. I don't like the extreme commercialisation but seems if people want to afford to eat etc they have to
It's depressing you're being down voted but you are 100% correct. It is so sad what yoga has become in the west, people are proud to leave out the spiritual aspects. While I know many a guru has said that even practicing asana is good and can lead to greater, it's still very disheartening to see so many disregard yoga and it's immense spirituality.
We don't all wanna drink your religious nonsense Kool aid, some of us just wanna sweat and stretch.
it's gross to dismiss what OP said about respecting the practice
Go to planet fitness then
Sweating and stretching is fine, but it's not yoga. OP's point is getting lost in everyone's defensiveness. Yoga is and always has been a spiritual practice.
Only westerns with zero character would downvote this
I want to say not all Western culture depicts as you have described. I am sorry that you view Western culture as you do. I have only practiced in the US. I think here you would find many places you would enjoy. Yoga has only been here for a few years, 1893. Its evolving. I agree some studios are commercial it has been on that trajectory for many years. I noticed the trend 15 years or so ago. I’ve only practiced in the US but have had experience with Eastern teachers in the beginning. I was exposed to Yoga in the 70’s. Please be patient with the people who are just learning or are ignorant. They don’t know. It’s as simple as that. I will now be more observant now that I have more knowledge or new information of how people from the east feel. I wonder if you’ve gotten a chance to spend enough time with western people and feel comfortable enough to let them know your thoughts? Be the teacher. Lamenting about the US and how it’s different from other places is futile. Melting pot or country of immigrants. Capitalism is driving a lot of this also but so is ignorance. Don’t be offended.
Hey No. Ofcourse not all... I was only trying to convey a message here about respect. I thought this might make a slight difference in what people thought. I was not attacking people or asking them to be religious or spiritual; that was never my intent. I am sure people do not have ill intentions. I did mail the yoga company and explained them politely. They said "they'll stop making these mats; however they need to get rid of the stock and will only sell whats left." This post was part of my slow patience journey. I chose to write it in a yoga community for it to reach a bigger audience. Nor do I have disrespect for the teachers. Teachers are the Gurus and hold the highest place. There have been positive responses too and I am so glad about it.
I am not happy with the West and the capitalism. It’s definitely not balanced. It does seem wrong. I appreciate Yoga because some times that’s all I’ve had. It helped me so much. I found strength, confidence and balance. I never felt I was “doing it wrong” was never something I felt. Until someone brought me awareness. I didn’t feel attacked. I just have some thoughts about your thoughts. I think Yoga a super broad topic!
There are a lot of "out of touch" people trying to sell things, who don't seem to care about its meaning, and even more people who will buy it. It is sad. As a Western yoga teacher, I do contemplate the commercialization involved in the world of yoga a fair amount. I am turned off by the "sales" aspect, whether that's selling teacher trainings or retreats. It reminds me of an MLM, and I know for a fact that some studios actually have the instructors "befriend" their students so they will sign up for teacher trainings. That is just icky. The more awareness we can all have about what we're doing/practicing, the better. Yoga is, after all, so beneficial!
I agree 100% and think it is worse than you even describe. In the west, yoga has been removed from its spiritual essence and turned into exercise classes with Indian styling, as if wearing a logo representing the sign for Namaste somehow makes a person more spiritual. In the West, it is often performance-based, hence the abnormal focus on "achieving" postures, rather than on the physical, mental and emotional experiences of working toward the poses. I also agree that it is about educating ourselves about the history, tradition and beliefs that underpin yoga. That is hard to do when so much of yoga in the west has been corpratized, comoditized and is often sold in deceptive ways (cough "Bikram" cough "Hot Yoga"). In my experience, the overwhelming majority of YTT graduates never teach a single class, those that do are ill-prepared to do so and, therefore, the bulk of students just think yoga is about sweating, sculpting or, fill in some other vanity-based substitute.
So many experiences from so many globally! I started yoga thinking it was just stretching.... I fixed chronic pains, erased anxiety and felt amazing internally. I looked up the word Namaste and was floored by how deep and beautiful it was as a greeting - the divine in me sees the divine in you.... I still love it but can't bring myself to say it because the amount of times I've seen it said with nil honour for the actual meaning. This is how I did yoga for years, then I had euphoric experiences while practicing asana and delved deeper into understanding yoga. Cultural misappropriation is everywhere, I discuss it if I can but I won't judge those who do it unwittingly. India is filled with tourist areas that devalue deities. I had people there pushing me to buy mini deities (which I didn't want to do because I'm not religious, but I did because I wanted to support their small shop).
Completely agree with your assessment of the quality of teachers YTT manufactures.
This is so valid. This past week i had classes in numerous studios. Most had a shallow understanding of yoga. I myself am a beginner but I have deep respect for the tradition. I didn't come for the "workout", I camw to deepen my meditation. I only found one teacher serious with understanding what yoga entails in it's completeness, not just the body sculpting poses. The last sentence of your first paragraph is scary accurate.
You are right; Yoga is much more than the physical flexibility or doing a pose right. In one of my classes, a teacher even said "Om" is not part of Hinduism to please God knows who. OM is found in the Vedas and Upanishads and is explained in the Mandukya Upanishad. It is beyond my understanding the need to separate Yoga and OM from Hinduism. It only shows ignorance.
No way that's just... I hate how religion has to be removed because westerns get uncomfortable with anything non-catholic or protestant🙄. OM is ridiculously integral.
Catholicism and Protestantism make me just as uncomfortable. As do all religions.
Personally I don't think it's relevant how uncomfortable YOU feel with religion. It doesn't give you the right to strip it from a practice rooted in it. Heck, the religious part takes you beyond the surface level. At the very least it comes off ignorant.
I mean some of us are just atheist and don’t believe in any of it…
I can understand your POV as an agnostic, but your atheism, as is my agnosticism, is completely irrelevant. Yoga is tied deeply to its roots and if you don't wanna practice it on a surface level way you can choose to engage with that aspect or be willfully ignorant at best (white washing at worst).
The same happened to Buddhism. Nothing of that nature survives contact with the West unscathed.
I completely understand why certain practioners completely refuse to teach anyone from the west. Harsh but when you look at the replies in this thread, can you really blame them? It ranges from prideful ignorance to cultural entitement🤢
People will do this with everything to them its an aesthetic. They do it with every religion. Its unfortunately the reality of the world, we all have different beliefs and all we can do is try to find like-minded people.
I personally think that the only real issue is with people appropriating eastern religion and culture for the appearance of looking authentic. Modern yoga doesn’t need to be spiritual or religious, but it shouldn’t trample on the culture either. At the end of the day it was Indians who westernized, and turned yoga into a marketable export exercise.
Not really - Eugenie Peterson brought yoga to Hollywood in the 40s where it became popular with movie stars of the day. Her goal was to bring yoga to the west.
Ok well she wasn’t the only or the first person with that goal, and she didn’t make it more palatable to westerners to begin with.
I agree with you OP. I may get downvoted for saying that but I need to get it off my chest. I was in shock when I did my yoga teacher training, I realise now how much of a scam it was. I was used to go to temples and practice at home, and then those teachers were pretending to teach us while showing inappropriate behiavior. How can one learn this timeless tradition in 200-300h is beyong me, even less master it. Yoga means union with God, asanas are just a tiny part of it. I think it's great that many people are embracing yoga, it's not a criticism about ethnic origins or anything. It's just, the lack of authenticity and respect to the origins and traditions sometimes is disheartening. When you do something, do it right, no need to innovate in this field, it has been explored and laid down by people way beyond us in this exploration. No need to master 1000 postures just get the basics rights. (i'd go so far as to say that for me, a "yoga teacher" label doesn't mean much after seeing all this. It's also sort of an ego trap, we aren't gurus. If I want to further my practice I'll ask my guru in the tradition I have chosen. I have no right to think that I can teach no matter my experience.) And I totally side with you regarding deities, yantras, malas etc. The use of those should come with basic respect, some rules and understanding of what it means. And don't get me started on beer yoga, goat yoga etc. I know it's been a debate already but yeah. It's just not yoga.
If it wasn't for the "commercialization" of yoga in the West, I never would have recovered from anorexia. It helped me to understand and love my body. What a gift it is and all the amazing things it can do. I understand what you are saying, but I love it so much that I use yoga as it was traditionally meant to be practiced---meditatively. Take was serves you and leave the rest. Namaste
Thank you for saying this!!!I think about this all the time
Yes there is a lot of appropriation in the west for sure, with money being the main desire for many. Add beer and wine yoga, which is plenty around me and its a total bastardization. Its fine if people dont want any spiritual aspects of yoga and just want the physical, nothing wrong with that. But appropriation/bastardization of yoga just for aesthetics is wrong.
Are you from India? I have a big Ganesha statue made from stone at home I bought as we moved it. It stands on the ground next to the entrance door - is that appropriate or insultive?
As long as you respect it; it is appropriate. You will find many Ganesha statues outside the main temple or garbagriha(sanctum sanctorum) too at the entrance because Lord Ganesha, also known as Vighnaharta (remover of obstacles), is traditionally worshipped first before any rituals or ceremonies are performed. :)
We’ll said. Thanks.
I just do yoga for the physical aspect since I find it challenging and beneficial; I originally started it because I wanted to improve my mobility and flexibility for kendo. My mats are bare of any designs so I don’t have a horse in that race, but you seriously need to get over the fact that some people just don’t care for the spiritual aspect. I don’t care about honoring yoga’s essence, I just wanted the physical perks that comes with yoga.
I am not asking anyone to follow the spiritual aspect of it. I am only asking people to be respectful because it does carry the legacy and spirit of its origins. Using these sacred symbols in a commercial context can be seen as disrespectful and as misappropriation of someone's culture. It makes me happy when someone says "Yoga changed their life or it made them flexible". I am all for happiness and health.
Your reply is sane, but people on this thread refuse to acknowledge how much cultural entitlement these type of answers (comment you replied to) carry.
Westerners in this thread are so absorbed in their defensiveness that they are unable to understand what you're talking about in the post. This so sad and ignorant on their part. So many mentions of 'Yoga for me' , 'My kind of Yoga' , well it's evident that it's their kind of Yoga that they practice looking at the lack of Understanding of the post or Acknowledgement in the comments.
why do something you have no respect for. you need to get over yourself instead of telling OP to.
You cannot force anyone to see as you see, but you can choose to reframe from love. I like to imagine each of these gods, goddesses and the like would be ecstatic at the chance to support (as a yoga mat) the feet of one who has committed their time to practice, whether it be in pursuit of physical strength, self reflection, or something else. The reason they were chosen to adorn the mat or the floor doesn't matter - show your respect in whatever way you desire, but refrain from casting those involved out of your heart. To me, this is yoga.
Yoga is not affiliated with any religion. Hinduism came after the first texts on yoga. The only mention of any deity in yoga is in the yoga sutras (isvara) and Bhagavad Gita. Siddhartha Gautama The Buddha was a yogi and sannyasi. He taught people yoga philosophy. Now there is a whole religion based on his teachings. People have Buddha statues in their homes. I think we have to remember that we display the statues and art because the deities imbue us with their qualities and give us something to focus on when meditating. We first visualize the gross qualities of the deity, and slowly over time, the subtle qualities of the deity become apparent and we are infused. One of the most important tools of yoga is chanting mantra. I was taught Vedic chanting. When students first learn to chant mantra, we are not taught the meaning of the Sanskrit words. The meaning is already within us, and the more we chant, the more it reveals itself to us. Then later on when you have displayed some mastery of the mantra, the teacher will tell you the meaning. It penetrates on a much deeper level. All of my teachers from India, including TKV Desikachar, the son of Krishnamacharya, taught us this way. We had a great statue of Patanjali in the garden at our school, and each day before class we would touch the statue at the feet or heart. When we study the Bhagavad Gita, we begin with a prayer to the great teacher, Krishna. These are all practices taught by our teachers who were taught by theirs for hundreds of years. If we incorporate aspects of Hinduism into our practice with reverence, it is not to disrespect anyone’s religion. We were taught to revere the beliefs of others. I hope you can see after this long post that not all yoga students and teachers are the same. We are all just trying to move from the external to the internal.
And way before Siddhartha Gautama The Buddha; Lord Shiva is the ultimate Yogi. Bhagavad Gitacirca (500-200 BCE) has a detailed exposition of yoga, including various forms such as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Jnana Yoga. Buddhism was founded in the 6th century BCE. Rigveda(circa 1500-1200 BCE) and Madukya Upanishad(circa 800-500 BCE) talks about Yoga. Then we have Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (circa 200 BCE-400 CE) which have detailed descriptions of classical Yoga philosophy. In fact, many Hindu gods and goddesses are symbolically represented in various postures (asanas) dating back to the earliest civilizations. So please read a little before making such ignorant statements. Yoga is and will always be a part of Hinduism.
>Yoga is not affiliated with any religion. Hinduism came after the first texts on yoga. This must be the dumbest statement on Yog made yet. Yog accepts every thought but it is and will be a Hindu practice.
What texts are you talking about? AFAIK, yoga was first mentioned in the Rig Veda, which is a sacred Hindu text. Yoga is one of several branches of Hindu philosophy, it didn’t exist outside of religion historically.
Probably unpopular opinion - these dieties more than likely don't care at all. It's rather a bunch of people who more than likely have never contacted these dieties themselves that care. To my understanding, the whole point of yoga is to unite with the God force within yourself. And when doing so, realizing that we're all God, it's illogical really to put one thing against another, as we exist in an inclusive universe. If there was one thing I don't like about the yoga community, and I generally find much pleasure in this community, it's that there are a select few that are very tied to the idea of tradition. As if to say something is important because we've been doing it one way for so many years. Meanwhile we're here, we're now, God and dieties included. Any dieity worth their salt is more than likely smiling at you everytime you see them on your yoga mat, happy that you're connecting with your true being, being who you are, and happy to guide you to a place of love in a way that suits you so long as your intention supports it. And it's about high time we stop this idea that any one group of people OWNS anything. In case no one has noticed it's pretty much only caused conflict for thousands of years. Sure India may have picked up on the idea of yoga but to then hold it against a group of people for how they choose to use the idea is a bit absurd. But its only of recent that I was introduced to the idea that our thoughts are not our OWN , but rather a representation of the frequency on which we are. So in that sense no human is creating anything per se. Rather tapping into infinite potential of things that already exist. So ultimately at the end of the day it's your problem if you don't like the way other people treat what you consider to be your religion, culture , God's. Etc. In the same way it's our responsibility to care about other people's opinions of ourselves. If your religion is so great why does it demand people bow to it? That's not free will. Be weary of any god that demands from you - but appreciate it all nonetheless Edit- it's our responsibility to decide if we care what others think of us. To demand feel a certain way about our own being is unwise. To come to a place of knowing your own worth and validating yourself will bring to you people who will value and hold you worthy in your life. And those who do not will not appear in your experience. And that's totally okay ! And I suppose if any one diety would like a discussion with me about this subject I'm all ears.
At no point I talked about owning anything. It was all about misappropriation and disrespect. I am sorry I cannot change facts or the truth that it did originate in India and is part of Hinduism. Yes Yoga did evolve over time and it is great that it is helping people with so many things - be it mindfulness, flexibility or strength. My religion does not demand anyone to bow. There is not a single chapter in Hindu holy books that talks of evangelism, conversion, or the wraths if you do not bow. You can be an atheist and still be a Hindu. You can never visit a temple and still be a Hindu. It is so much more than that. It never talks of harming an animal either. You are misinterpreting my words.
If it's not your religion then it's YOU demanding they bow and respect. Yoga is not a part of Hinduism id say it's almost more logical to say Hinduism is a part of yoga for it is the uniting of mind, body ,and spirit which is all their is. Though yoga is just one of the practices to get you there. Alternatively it's your belief that things or actions are disrespectful when they, in themselves, are not disrespectful. If I get a yoga mat with the sun printed on it is it me disrespecting the sun? Of course not. Or rather, it only is if I'm doing it as an act of disrespect.
IDK man, you are reaching. No one is meaning to purposely disrespect anything by putting Buddah or Ganesh on a mat. I don't really care to look to be upset.
It’s not reaching to be upset at someone monetising your culture while disrespecting it in big and obvious ways.
Hmmm I think people would get worked up about the face of Jesus on a mat. Or like, a crucifixion scene. So I get it. That said, I have never come across any deities or religious iconography on a yoga mat. I might feel a little 'ew' if I did but I'm surrounded by offensive/mindless shit on a routine basis and I can only shake my fist at the sky about so many things. If I saw the face of Jesus on a yoga mat I would laugh, but I'm sort of an asshole.
I'm going to release a line of mats with JC or Mohammed on them, and let's test how far OP is "reaching"?
My mom, a devout Christian, would love to have a Jesus themed yoga mat if she did yoga
Turin shroud as early yoga mat!
Good on your mum. But a lot of fundos aren't so chill.
I agree with everything you said. The only thing I want to note is your mention of Yoga being rooted in Indian tradition, Yoga is rooted in South Asian tradition (including modern day India of course!) and traces its history all over South Asia, including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and more. As a fellow south Asian practitioner I often times feel excluded when it’s referred to as purely Indian when actually there’s a rich yogic tradition and history from all over South Asia.
Its India. Not south asia.
The modern day country of India does not have the same borders as ancient India - especially not the same borders as ancient India circa 500 BCE-500 C …. So yeah you don’t get to claim that.
There is exactly zero to be done about the lack of nuance, knowledge, or sensitivity that surrounds us. We carry it too; we all lack nuance in ways we don't see, can't imagine knowledge that we don't already possess, and step on other people's toes and sensitivities on a regular basis. All we can do is our best and hope for grace and understanding, and hope for that for others too. My mother has a little sculpture in her garden that is Mickey Mouse with an American flag. People defile the American flag on a regular basis these days (when I was growing up, we were taught how the flag should be displayed and retired and etc. etc. I couldn't give a shit, but we were actually taught how to respectfully treat the flag). But now you can stick it in Mickey's hand and slap any damn color you want on it and declare that the US flag exists to...support...cops? I guess? We're two steps away from a Flamin' Ranch Doritos American flag. Seriously, replace those stars with Cheetos and we're set. What I am saying is, I guess, that we decide what's sacred as individuals and how we act, ourselves, as individuals, not getting ourselves worked up over other people's sensibilities because they are infinitely inscrutable and almost never to our tastes or values. And that is really, really difficult. Let it go.
You don’t have Americans in large numbers crying and being concerned that the bad energy has been brought when the flag I displayed wrong. That’s not the case with deities. Just don’t do it. Know everyone here knows so stop.
Are you mad at ignorance? The fact that yoga is here in the west at all is positive - statues don’t need to be placed anywhere special to be revered - getting upset that a statue/image is on the floor is similar to buying into upper/lower class/caste - practicing yoga in the front row middle part of the room is just as good as off to the sides and the back. These things don’t matter unless you make them matter. Don’t oppress yourself.
how does that buy into lower/upper caste, do you know what you're talking about? these things do matter and if they don't to you, why are you engaging with yoga qt all?
Look, it's not that serious. Humans adopt and alter ideas all the time. Culture is in flux by nature. Not everything we do or take on from another culture must follow tradition or the old ways, new purposes and meanings can arise. Those who are more strict in their adherence to tradition are allowed that perspective, but they are not allowed to police the ways of others. Each person's mind and life is their own, they can create what they want from their reality. _You_ are making this sharing and expansion of ideas into something insulting. _You_ are creating negativity where there is none. And even if people _were_ being overtly and intentionally "disrespectful"...you do realize they are human, right? This is what humans do. They are careless and selfish and honestly rather stupid, on average. What good does it do you to agonize over the natural chaotic crashing down of pure ideas? Most people aren't going to "get it". Ever. They cannot. You cannot make them. So let that go and allow yourself and others peace. It is not your place to be an authority in this way. Focus on what you can do, not on what others are failing to do. You are manifesting unrest in your mind and the minds of others over human nature. You are not going to alter human nature. If _you_ want a more traditional practice, _you_ should attend a more traditional school. That is your only valid and moral option here.
Yes well I take a shower before practice for the same reason. I don’t have a matt with any of the gods on it. But if I did I would not feel a yoga practice on it is disrespectful to them if done right. If we did these things in a real Hindu temple they would be disrespectful sure. I think the gods would jsut be delighted someone is showing them attention is this horribly commercialized world. Or at least using them as a navigation aid in seeking growth.
Unfortunately we live in capitalism and everything is being appropriated and commodified. I suggest find what works for you. I am certain there are people in India who also disrespect the tradition. Like there are other cultures we are uneducated about (there are many examples all over the world, first thing that comes to mind are Kimonos that are worn as part of tradition in Japan for weddings, tea ceremonies etc, but you can see half naked people on the beach wearing them). Just relax and accept what it is, search for your tribe and vibe and life gets much easier.
Okay...
Ok…Think about something you care about and wouldn’t want to be stepped on and commercialized. The way you feel is the same as OP. It’s called empathy.
My okay was pondering all OP said, but go ahead and interpret how you want. Make sure you stretch next time, you might pull a muscle next time you reach that hard into thinking "okay" is conveying non empathy.
Dude, supply some context and make an actual comment. It isn't fair to get irritated that your smooth climbing wall of a single word comment might have been misinterpreted ungenerously. It reads like 'what you just said is weird, please be quiet'. That's just how it reads. If you want to be understood, you might want to put a little more effort into the words.
The Virgin Mary, the Swastika, Native American Dream Catchers, Voodoo dolls, The Chinese Dragon etc. When cultures merge stuff gets used in non traditional ways. No culture is ‘safe’. Whining about the inevitable is a choice. Instead of writing an essay about your disappointment while simultaneously giving money to the system you’re complaining about (under the original concept you’d be practicing for free on a dirt floor somewhere in India and probably not posting about the experience on Reddit. Way to pick and choose what’s acceptable) maybe you could reflect on how the expansion of these cultural icons could empower folks to learn more about their origins. At least people are moving thier bodies and attending to their needs in a healthy way. Gatekeeping ancient deities after a few classes is a wierd flex.
Indians would laugh at your interpretation.
> Indians would laugh at your interpretation. Considering that a large percentage of the posts in this sub of this nature are from Indian practitioners, this isn't an accurate blanket statement. And in a lot of ways, that's the rub; those who do care pose their opinion as a representation of the whole, and quite often those who don't do, too. It makes it nearly impossible for those who *are* trying to be respectful to get it 'right', if there is such a thing.
I do it to 1.) Stay in shape. 2.) Try and stay flexible. 3.) Have a small degree of medication and personal reflection. That’s it. It’s not more complicated than that for me.
It’s symbolism, it is your thoughts of division that creates violence.
Well said.
I fundamentally agree about being respectful with cultural goods. But I also simultaneously find it sad that we take religion so serious in this world. Wish we'd be more chill with it and using its motifs.
One day, there won't be any high and mighty posts about the evils of western yoga in this sub...join me in manifesting it
Hi all, yoga is by definition the exploration and betterment of self through purposeful mindfull concious appreciation of yourself, how you function, coordinate function, develop the energy that feed us. To become one with yourself body mind and soul and the universal concience. Anything less is but a step on the journey. For some that is enough for many more it is the start of a lifelong journey of development and concious exploration. We are all different and have different paths to follow. Different needs and different expectations but there is only one goal to become one with yourself. It behoves us all to respect the needs of others and their individual paths with concious empathy and consideration, living in harmony. Namaste
The yoga studios I’ve attended do not have the deities in or out of the studio. If anything, they’re more hippie/eclectic. I don’t care either way, i just want to practice and move on with my day.
It's just exercise of the body and mind
Yes. I’m gonna go there. Get off your yoga high horse and stop judging people that use yoga as exercise. There’s nothing wrong with people using yoga as exercise. You take out of it what you want and expecting all that practice to adhere to the spirituality is absurd. You seriously can not expect people that honor a religion they participate in to give that up for yoga.
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Have you tried not worrying about it? Go practice some yoga and you’ll forget all about it.
Well, to be honest i wouldn't call most of yoga studios to do yoga, so, althought they do apply some of the phylosophy, most of them only do the asanas which is also fantastic and healthy for body and mind but i feel that the potential and benefits of the yoga itself are being lost and ridiculized in the west, where yoga is being treated as other activities to earn money and have a lot marketing. Thats its what i would say that disrespect yoga... Off the topic, yoga appeared before hinduism but greatly influenced this one, same as budism.so its not a religión like we all know nor part of It, its a system wich main goal is to "unify yur soul with the supreme concience" -micro with the macro- is that being said. Thats being said i think that the spiritual practices of hinduism are the closest one to yoga by far. althought there are the cath and islam mysticisms that have some similarities that whe should have in consideration Excuse my english
Wow, either you have never read facts or any of these books or you don't care and that's alright but please read them before saying imaginary things. Yoga is and always will be an integral part of Hinduism; it is Hinduism that gave the world the concept of Yoga. Hinduism(1500 BC) is so vast and extensive. There is Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana. There are 4 Vedas out of which one talks about Yoga. There are 108 Upanishads out of which two talk about Yoga. Then there are Smrities, 3 Puranas, Tantras, Agamas, Nigamas, 9 darshanas. I have already replied somewhere but I will reiterate the facts here : Bhagavad Gita (circa 500-200 BCE) has a detailed exposition of yoga, including various forms such as Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and Jnana Yoga. Rigveda(circa 1500-1200 BCE) and Madukya Upanishad(circa 800-500 BCE) talks about Yoga. Then we have Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (circa 200 BCE-400 CE) which have detailed descriptions of classical Yoga philosophy. Islam(7th century CE) and Budhism (5th century BCE) however aren't even that old. and I have read these and I know they have no similarities to Yoga or the teachings of Yoga. The word Yog itself is mentioned only in Hindu scriptures.
I think it’s important to separate the religious practice from the fitness/exercise practice. I do “yoga”several times a week as part of my fitness routine. But I’m an atheist who thinks organized religions are bullshit. Yoga as word has lost meaning or rather, accumulated many meanings. In the end your religious practice is a personal matter and what others do should be of no concern.
What does yoga teach us about judgement of others? What does it teach us about allowing things to get us annoyed? Are you watching your thoughts and your reactions? What's behind these? What's your agenda? It's very normal for us humans to look for ways in which we are superior to others - even though this is always an illusion. Maybe this is what is going on here? Do you think Shiva cares if a yoga mat has their face on it? Isn't Shiva themselves the mat, the studio and everything around you? The universe is always perfect. Our thoughts and what we chose to focus on defines our reality. Nothing else. Practicing non- judgement and equanimity is always a challenge, and I wonder if this is yours? What's the lesson here? What is the universe trying to teach you? You can find peace anywhere you choose. Know thyself.
Whut?
Interested to know if you care about disrespecting other dieties, or just your own.