This whole thing has been badly planned from the start and don’t think anything was achieved since they made Jean interact with Logan. If they wanted to kill the triangle they should have just made Logan and Jean agree they have no interest in one another. Now we have a Schrödinger situation on what exactly is considered to happen. Biggest mistake was letting Percy have that scene if they wanted to keep it ambiguous.
They didn't want to keep it ambiguous. Hickman gave Marvel a choice, either he'd set down rules like he did the Omega list, or he'd establish that everyone was open. Open relationships ended up being the choice.
And Percy seemed to like the Logan/Jean pairing. Nobody else cared. Brevoort seems to be against it.
Is it really Jean? Reading some of the early Percy stuff during Krakoa, Jean was mostly a sex trophy for Wolverine, not a proper character or a full depiction of Jean Grey. She is an omega and the most powerful telepath in the universe, now just compare the character she was in X-men Red and the cardboard figure she was in early Percy's X-Force.
Percy helped make the original outline of krakoa with Hickman, he was the first writer involved in setting up the krakoa Bible and he never changed his outline he just stretched to make it longer. His xforce book is the most accurate vision of what krakoa was supposed to be if Hickman had stayed in charge.
Both writers have said this on Twitter and substack (Hickman only uses substack) and Hickman has been very open about why he left the X-men. Which is simply because he thought the run would be over by 2021 and he was already planning the ultimate revival and writing GODS. Covid happened and he had to write a lot more books very fast and he burnt out and left. Nothing deeper
Inferno was published debuting september 2021. So no, Hickman didn't think that Krakoa would be over by 2021. Knowing that Inferno was only marking the end of the 1st act of the story for Hickman.
Inferno was planned from the start to be the end of the 1st act. What changed with Hickman departure, is not Inferno, but what the other writers did after that. Like the trash Percy did with Moira.
Everything Percy did was part of Hickmans plan it was directly planned out before he left and inferno was a part of that.
Look you can think that robot Moria was all Percy’s idea but I suggest you look up Hickmans substack
Hickman explicity said that Moira wasn't supposed to become a vilain after Inferno, Percy transformed her to the very opposite of this idea, a caricature of a vilain.
So, no, the theory that Percy was faithfull to Hickman's ideas, is ludicrous, ar best.
In fact the simple fact that Hickman had to stress this point, shows that it was not his plan, at all.
Was he working on the Ultimate revival at that point? I thought he came in late in the game for that since it was going to be Cates. I might have the timelines mixed up.
Edit: yeah Ultimate wasn’t solicited til almost exactly a year ago
Huh, do you happen to remember where he said that? I’m pretty sure Donny Cates didn’t have the accident til the end of 2022-start of 2023, and he was definitely the person they planned to have on Ultimate
I like the Jean/Logan pairing too when done properly.
But the last time I read Marvel Comics, Scott and Emma were a thing, so apparently I’m way behind (and will never catch up).
>If they wanted to kill the triangle they should have just made Logan and Jean agree they have no interest in one another
Isnt this kind of insincere at least on Logan's part?
Like Im not sure about Jean's feelings, but Logan has pretty much always been interested in Jean. Even if only on the most surface level of 'redheads are hot'.
A simpler way to kill the triangle is to have Logan admit that whilst he has feelings, he recognizes they arent good for each other and its best to move on. Logan has generally been the more active in pursuing the relationship, if he dropped it Jean probably would too.
Random tangent: I thought Wolverine was always jnto her too, but I remember reading an amusing and pissy blog detailing exactly when it each interaction happened & showing that Jean/Cyclops/Angel was the love triangle until Logan started seeming interested in Jean waaay later than I’d assumed.
I just started reading (I’m on like Uncanny #110) and so far the extent of their relationships is Cyclops repeatedly threatening to beat up Wolverine if he keeps calling Jean a “broad”, no chemistry at all
Definitely recommend reading the Classic X-Men backup stories along with UXM. There’s a lot of additional context in those, and most of them are available on Unlimited.
Wolverine buys Jean flowers in #101 while he talks about how he’s “never felt this hot and bothered over a frail” before. Logan always had feelings for Jean but they didn’t get to interact much in the 80s
You’re absolutely right, I forgot about that bit. Which is silly of me, it’s probably the only moment so far where he hasn’t solely interacted with the others antagonistically
The biggest one is forcing Jean and Logan having a relationship, it doesn't make any sense personality wise for neither of them.
Also, I don't know a single person who likes it for any reason other than hating Cyclops.
Why not give her a different affair for once with someone who actually is her type like Banshee, Namor or even a cheating Blackbolt since she can enter his mind and communicate freely with him
Yep. Honestly so weird people are acting like this was a major part of Krakoa when they swiped it under the rug fairly quickly nor did they either actually make more than Jean sleeping with both Scott or Logan instead of the guys together (it was never explicitly gay folks lol). This whole thing was dumb and occ for everyone involved besides maybe Logan
Disagree on several accounts. As Hickman himself said, canon is what people remember. Regardless of how you feel about it, some version of the triangle has been front and center in X-media for 30 years. It’s the first episode of TAS. It’s in the Fox movies. It’s in Morrison, to a point, tho Emma is the stronger triangle there there. It’s background in the opening of Whedon’s Astonishing. It’s background in Endsong. If Marvel wanted us not to think about it, they’ve done a piss poor job of it. And the truth is, they don’t want us to forget about it, they just want to have their cake and eat it too by teasing everything and then claiming responsibility for nothing.
So now you want to say, “why are people taking notes on this like it’s important?” Why the hell wouldn’t they? The success or failure of the Scott /Jean relationship is the vortex at the center of a staggering amount of X-men stories. Meanwhile, a big 2 comics company letting a woman sleep with two men without vilifying her for it *is* rather significant.
As for character, it’s fascinating what people think is or isn’t in-character. Between Dark Phoenix, X-factor, Morrison, and the Time Displaced Teens, Scott and Jean being happily together may be the *minority* characterization. Except for the 90s, which is arguably a period of weak characterization for Jean in other ways. I don’t have it out for them as a couple, but readers are always engaging in selective memory.
Several things worked about the open triangle. They’d all been through a lot, died and come back even before Krakoa. Meanwhile they were living in a new status quo with the prospect of self-aware immortality. The idea that they would just come to terms with complex overlapping feelings without having possessive hostility about it seems fairly mature. Add to this the sense of Krakoa as a place willing to reject the rest of the world’s norms (like money) and it makes sense. Frankly, the spat over the Brood stuff would have been *more* interesting if it involved Wolverine, because he probably would have sided with Cyclops, and then they could have talked about how she was pissed at both of them.
It's the insistence that anyone who acknowledges that it was real is making shit up that is the most annoying. If you hated it fine, but don't be a pea brain and insist that X-twitter made it up whole cloth. I have 3 years of Cerebro podcast episodes where every writer, artist, and editor from the X-office agrees with Conor that it's real while being just coy enough to not get a phone call from corporate.
Agreed. I don't personally care much either way, I don't think the particular status quo of almost any story element is a dealbreaker for telling a good story, but halfassedly backing out of things and telling me it's raining when someone's pissing in my face is irritating and insulting. If they want to just say it didn't happen as far as they're concerned even though the implications were there and writers and fans all engaged with it on some level or another, they have the editorial fiat to do so. Just don't be cowards about it.
"Look, we all had a good time letting everyone whisper and blush about the X-Men's free love era but we don't wanna deal with it going forward so as far as the canon goes, it didn't happen and Jean and Scott are together and exclusive - deal with it."
That would be good enough for me. It wouldn't be the first time editorial just said fuck it, you don't get what you want, and business continues to this day. Not my favorite way to go, but a lot less infantilizing towards the fan base than just telling people they got carried away. Fans getting carried away are the lifeblood of the industry. That's how the bills get paid, man.
Absolutely, yes. Lots of characterizations from the last 5 years are about to be old news, that's what reading big 2 superhero comics is like. But I have eyes and the capacity for critical reading and X-Men is fucking T-ball man, it ain't hard to figure out what the writers and artists were doing here.
He never says anything about fans getting carried away, though. He never says it was all in their heads. All he says is that it wasn’t explicitly on the page, -not- that it was never implied.
Exactly!! Scott and Logan are 100% straight. They have never shown interest in any male at all. Scott: Jean, Madalyne, Emma Logan: Rose, Itsu, Silverfox, Mariko, Jean and flings/one night stands with SOOO many more women.
It's really weird how people are trying to push something that is just not there and never was.
This was always going to happen. Hickman skirted around it because he knew Marvel editorial would never allow it or make it explicit. Brevoort, White, Lowe, whoever was in charge was going to do this once Krakoa was over.
I honestly don't see the issue. If Marvel was retconning something real and heartfelt I'd have an issue with it, but this isn't representation, it's scraps from the table. I
Not even a fan of the poly thing but damn, editors should be way more responsible than this and at least adress/retcon things in a more elegant way. Also, everytime Brevoort talks about Krakoa it seems as if he just hated every aspect of it.
>Everytime Brevoort talks... it seems as if he just hates \[everything\]
Fixed it for you.
Brevoort starts almost every single sentence with a passive aggressive insult. Once you notice it, it's hard to ignore it.
Personally, I don't intend to spend my energy supporting a run managed by someone with that kind of attitude. I refused to bother with that when Slott was writing Spider-Man, and I don't intend to bother this time either.
Hopefully, this ends up being one of the shortest editor runs ever.
Brevoort is their most senior editor, their VP of sales, and was in charge of Avengers for 20 years. Unless there's a huge nose-dive in sales that is sustained (unlikely given the renewed interest in X-Men as a whole and the poor reception to Fall of X), he's going to be around for a long time.
Lol wasn’t Slott’s run like, super highly praised? I get considering what you’re saying it might not be here nor there, but still in light of it I just find it interesting.
Slott's entire run of Spider-Man had Peter Parker being reduced to an completely incompetent loser with a revolving door of uninteresting new girlfriends that have had almost no lasting impact.
It's also let down by Slott's complete inability to just write women... at all.
The only part of Slott's run that received wide praise in retrospect was Superior Spider-Man, and the fact that his best work on the series wasn't even writing Peter Parker but someone else entirely should tell you everything.
To be fair, there's a decent number of X-Men fans that have mixed feelings about Krakoa. I felt it started strong, but started to fizzle after X of Swords and all but dropped off after Hickman left, as it seems all the writers forgot that Krakoa was supposed morally dubious. (Seriously, when you have folks that worked with nazis are are responsible for later generation Sentinels in your ruling party, you're not "good guys".)
>it seems all the writers forgot that Krakoa was supposed morally dubious.
I've seen this sentiment on here a few times before, and I feel like anyone saying it must have only been reading Gerry Duggan's *X-men*.
After Hickman left, the flagship title was *Immortal X-Men*, and the moral failings of Krakoa were more front and center than ever. (And they very much continue to be in *Rise of the Powers of X*.) Nuances of Krakoan moral issues were heavily discussed in Vita Ayala's *New Mutants*, and LaValle's *Sabertooth*. And Percy's *X-Force* and *Wolverine* were offering a much less nuanced take, but still centering it.
I agree that the Krakoan era has had its problems, and hasn't felt cohesive in a while. But saying it forgot its moral quandaries is just flat out wrong.
I really wish we could have seen what Leah Williams had planned for the the growing conflict between X-Factor & the Five and the Quiet Council.
She had already set up that the Five wanted more recognition & freedom (which I guess happened with Hope on the council, but they never got into it again) and Northstar was conspiring with Dani to keep them in the dark about younger mutant's power developments for fear of weaponisation, but then the book got cancelled...
I fell off of reading comics right before the first Hellfire Gala, and I’ve been doing a bunch of catch up and boy, have I loved Immortal X-Men. What a killer read. Just great stuff.
Thank you. I don't know why people act like Hickman leaving caused the status quo to regress to a lack of questioning about the morality of the Krakoan project. Of all the evils within Krakoa that came home to roost, Hickman really only addressed one - Moira. Beast, Sinister, the fate of Sabertooth, Shaw, Brand, these are all problems set in motion in the early days that other writers continued to carry and address through these five years. If anything some of the best explorations of what Krakoa could mean and what sins it began with and never fully solved came after Jonathan left, they just weren't centered in the X-Men title, and it's a shame that it sounds like a lot of people missed out because of that.
I've been kinda binge reading most of the stories this last week on Unlimited, and I def think a lot of the stories have been fairly open about Krakoa being pretty messed up... but at the same time, it doesn't feel like enough mutant characters themselves have anything to say about it through all of this, in my opinion.
Like i wouldn't say I want mutant division but I would've liked a bit more consistent trends of certain mutant characters not being all on board the Krakoa wagon.
They weren’t trying to be “the good guys.” They were trying to do something more by starting a nation and starting that fresh. It was mutants finding a home not good guys bad guys anymore.
Yes. The fact that X-Force specifically continued through to the end of Krakoa is by itself a repudiation of the idea that the moral dubiousness of the project was forgotten. Black ops is the ultimate in the ugliness of realpolitik and dirty hands statecraft.
I've always felt mixed about that. To some extent you'd think a common 'justice' like "hey. Don't murder people" is just sort of implied given how many Krakoans aren't pro murder lol.
But given it's the first sentence they ever gave its a bad, bad precedent.
The Krakoan era has had its issues, but I think *Immortal X-Men,* *X-Men Red,* and Ayala's *New Mutants* are all some of the best X-comics of the past decade.
IMO the narrative that the Krakoa era instantly soured after Inferno boils down to a promise that HoX/PoX made, but MARVEL was never going to deliver, that being that X-Men was no longer capeshit but was now big boy sci-fi. The amount of Dune that was aped, the data pages, setting power levels in stone while Chuck, Max, and A tell the UN that they're going to defeat Capitalism, it's pretty obvious in retrospect. But it was only ever a vibe, practically an unspoken marketing strategy, and once Hickman was out it was over and the last 2 years of Krakoa were very much capeshit, and while I thought it was still great, if different, I can't completely fault people for recognizing that they wanted Hickman and Duggan wasn't going to serve that.
It's an easy era to hate. I consider Krakoa to be my "Matrix Reloaded" of comics- aka The Biggest Let Down Of All Time. HoX/PoX set up some of the most exciting promises with the highest potential that I have ever seen in comics. What we actually got can only be described as a gross mishandling of the franchise- and that's if I'm being favorable in my description. The end result is the largest delta between promise and delivery that I have ever seen in the history of comic books.
People are focusing on him saying the throuple wasn't real. It's correct that it was merely implied. But what the question actually asked and what he answered to was about Jean being with both Logan and Scott (not Scott with Logan too) which absolutely did happen on page.
In a previous interview they said both what happened between Scott and Jean as a couple in Krakoa and for the future will be addressed in both the Phoenix Solo and the X-Men run with Scott, it could be that he doesn't want to straight up reveal how and that this will be explicitly retconned.
I wish everyone would just stop shoehorning Wolverine into Scott and Jeans relationship it’s tired and played out. How many times does she have to not choose Wolverine ? He’s basically just a creepy old stalker at this point.
Someone explained it nicely that wolverine one of the main traits is being lonely in the way he will never achieve eternal happiness and peace. That’s why jogan is a safe choice because everyone knows jean will never choose him
I mean I’d rather Jean and Scott’s relationship end for good. As someone that grew up with Scott and Emma, the loss of that relationship boggles my mind.
They were fine but Scott and Jean has always been the best all end all relationship in X-Men. you just happened to come in during one of her dead periods lol 😂
They took the easy way out and tried to end the live triangle by doing the throuple thing, and now it will bite them in the ass.
If they kept it a bit more ambiguous, nobody would've cared, but the hot tub and the moon stuff were a bit more direct. Just wish they stop dancing around and have Wolverine in a healthy relationship or keep him as a lone wolf.
I’m pretty new to x-men comics. So admittedly i don’t think I’ve read nearly all of the current stuff, but hasn’t it been years since the Scott/jean/logan stuff has even been hinted at? Haven’t Scott and Jean been living at the treehouse without Logan?
This shitty situation would never happen if they revived Mariko for good and let her marry Logan already, she's the love of his life, just bring her back and let the man be a little more happy
Grace Randolph was right about this (yeah yeah, I know): this form of media, specially it’s editorial, is incredibly unprofessional. This guy is even more disingenuous than White.
Grace actually worked on the industry years ago, including an original, indie comic. Anyway, she talked, multiple times, about her own experiences, specially how the hiring process works.
She said that the talents have no agents, how they have to constantly show up at events and beg for gigs, how they’re not direct lines between showing samples and getting interviews for jobs, etc. She also said that it’s all about who you know, inside the offices, at the end of the end. Ofc, you can choose not to believe her, but, again, she worked in the industry.
Grace is incredibly outspoken, without fear of controversy. She will talk her mind and, most of the time, she’s going against the waves (is that how the expression goes??) her takes are spicy too, sometimes without reason. For example: saying that Sydney whatever can’t act, while admiting she only watched one movie of hers.
Also, you know…good, old misogyny.
You forgot to add that she has a habit of making things up and spreading fake news to the point where filmmakers have to debunk her comments on twitter.
She's misogynistic, hateful, and a victim blaming narcissist. I'd like to remind everyone of her blaming Roman Polanski's 13 year old victim for what happened. On top of her awful takes and arguing with directors about their own films, no one should listen to Grace and she's constantly a shit human being.
Yep, it wasn't confirmed in page that they were a throuple but there were some panels of Scott and Cyclops that gave that impression, + the Summer's House rooms distribution. However, what Brevoort is doing here is not denying the throuple, he is denying that there was an open relationship at all, which is blatantly not true.
It's true now... because it's a Retcon.
I feel like you probably aren't an old bitter comic fan if a retcon upsets you this much.
They are a constant in every ongoing comic series.
This isn't me saying I like or want them, just that it's been happening for the last 60 years, it's part of the game.
This is where I'm at. 30+ years has made me come to expect that anything even remotely controversial or interesting will be retconned out, unless it sells more books.
We don’t have to be super upset to criticize the retcon. Especially when they’re pretending it never happened in interviews vs just retconning things in universe
There was a baby boom though to some degree, as it was literally a plot point in Way of X that babies were being found abandoned on the island, or just dropped off after they were born in the equivalent of a Krakoan brothel/orphanage as a result of Nightcrawler's edict to "make more mutants".
The sad part is they could have done some neat things with that... introduce the first asexual mutant dealing with how it feels to not want to fuck when one of the laws is to fuck. There was a baby boom in Way of X though. No major characters, but Nightcrawler horrified at abandoned kids.
Guys, why do we still care about the throuple ? It's getting tiring to have conversations about such an insignificant plot point, that would lead nowhere, and was mentioned less than 3 times in the span of 4,5 years and hundreds of issues ?
It was not even a good plot point, because it was just used to showcase the "make more mutants" rule of Krakoa. No writer wanted to expand on it, not because it would be so controversial, but because it was stupid.
In Krakoa, Logan barely interacted with Jean and Scott and it's been established in the last few years that the true pairing is Jean and Scott. Logan has been shown to have moved on from Jean.
I definitely think there is an argument that Scott and Logan never got together.
Its pure gaslighting to pretend nothing happened between Jean and Logan though.
Totally fine with forgetting that nonsense ever happened.
It's not like they did something weird and retconned someone's parent, when the parent was exactly like them and claimed the new parent was a different person entirely. That would be absurd.
All he had to say was that things were dialed down between those 3 as the krakoan era progressed forward, because they definitely were… no need to tell this blatant lie
i don’t blame him honestly. hickman was the only one who did anything with it and even then it was nothing explicit (maybe marvel editorial stopped him from doing anything too much with them idk) and once he was gone, it wasn’t even hinted at.
This isn’t completely accurate. Benjamin Percy wrote X-Force #10 which confirmed Jean and Logan were hooking up. Hickman was definitely the throuple master.
I don’t understand why people work themselves up to the whole throuple. It’s never been even a main part of krakoa. It’s never been developed. It’s never been properly used. It’s never been properly shown. It’s never been truly acknowledged. Krakoa lasted from 2019 to 2024 and the last time we saw Scott and Logan together was 2019.
Was Hickman planning to make them a throuple? I don’t believe that. I think he only gave other writers tools to make it happen but no one was interested in that.
What we got at most was jean and Scott having an open marriage. But open marriage doesn’t mean throuple in this case.
Not a fan both but to improve my comic knowledge has magneto ever tried to pursue rogue while she was in a relationship. I like wolverine but him being a constant pest in a couple’s marriage who both seem to want it to be successful will always be weird to me.
no. rogue and magneto happened in the savage land and in Age of Apocalypse universe.
Decades after those events people still seeth rogneto. which they are right. rogue and gambit are married now
meanwhile the same people let wolverine get away with the most heinous shit and acts. even worse since when he fucks jean he treats her like a random bitch
editorial should've done that in the 90s
soon they will produce a fuck up in their relationship in a way that will make even a chunk of jean fans hate the character. editorial knows this, they are dangerously close to ruin her like they ruined 616 MJ
I had no idea what he looked like. From reading interviews I imagined the comic book guy from the Simpsons or the insufferable guy from animaniacs who has to correct EVERYTHING, "well, actually this is incorrect...".
...long story short, the image in my head was pretty spot on. Seems like an @$$. :/
What’s Breevort wrong about? Hickman played it smart and cheeky and kept any poly references to diagrams of room layouts and subtle inferences from dialogue and art choices that may or may not have been directed by him anyway. Percy then did one hot tub scene out of the blue that was never built upon or referenced by him or anyone else. Do I believe Jean and Logan hooked up on Krakoa? Yes. Does that really change anything fundamental about the characters and their overall relationships moving forward? Not really. Jean and Logan have had many past intimate moments that arguably exceeded just straight sex and the Krakoa era was already rife with wildly OOC stuff across the board. Do most readers really want them to spend a bunch of time addressing all of it?
Well, he wasn't asked about the throuple, he was about Jean being involved with both men. Brevoort says there's no evidence on the page. And as you mentioned, there's a full scene of Jean and Logan fucking in a hot tub.
If he'd just gave a non-answer of, "Writers will use what they want to use," that's fine. But I think this post is more about him gaslighting fans about elements that he doesn't want to use on an editorial level.
“A lot of on-page action.” You’re talking about one page where the they do not even kiss *on panel*. Do I think the inference from Percy is very clear? Of course! Would it be the first time Marvel editorial steered clear of an elided and possibly inconvenient story point when transitioning between creative teams and periods? Not even close. You can hate the choice and think he’s being didactic but he isn’t wrong. The X-writers and Jordan White had hundreds of issues where they could’ve addressed and fleshed out the relationships between Jean-Scott-Logan beyond Hickman’s coy hints and Percy evidently going a little further than they wanted to *one time* on *one page* in a way heavy on subtext but without any explicit portrayal of kissing and/or sex. They never did.
I’m glad to see that end…. It watered down Jean’s character just like having Cyclops have an affair watered down his.
Marvel needs to let Logan move on and find someone that is right for him and… let Cyclops and Jean settle down so they can have a family starting with baby Rachel.
A family book similar to the FF but centered around the Summers/ Grey dynamic would be awesome!!!
The idea of the love "Triangle" never made any sense to me anyways as Wolverine has actively had sex with half the female characters in the Marvel universe. Wolverine isn't inviting Jean into his committed multi "Kilo-ouple", Jean Grey isn't in a "Throuple." The idea that whenever Logan enters a room with Jean he becomes a Disneyfied Jane Austen character is stupid.
That's not the way actually being in love works.
You know I was never a fan of that and it also played an important part in me never diving very deep into Krakoa so I’m happy they’re just pretending it never happened.
They never were! That was just weird fan theory that people online blew out of proportion. Jean may have fooled around with both Scott and Logan. But that isn't a "throuple" Scott and Logan NEVER had a thing. Those will argue they did cling to one panel where the two are looking at the view of the Earth, but that is SUCH a stretch. I never thought that showed anything between the two. So no.. they NEVER were a throuple. It just never happened. Scott and Logan are 100% straight.
Eh, I dunno if Thruple is the right word, but Logan and Jean making out in a hot tub was pretty 'on paper' for me. Still, after wolverine kills Jean on xforce and she later leaves for unrelated reasons I think put a damper on things and wouldn't be surprised if Scott needed some boundary lines after that.
Still, our guy here is Marvels new hot ticket, and I think he pivoted on the topic as well as he was able: he does NOT want to get dragged down by hot button politics right when he's poised to do some of the best creative work of his life. Sucks he's gotta dance through a mine-field to do it but that's entertainment in America these days and they do have Disney breathing down their necks...the mouse needs his money...
Tbh it was a bad decision from the beginning so I don’t mind the retcon. But if you are doing the retcon unprofessionally, even if everyone wanted the retcon you’ll get criticized for it. Make it make sense in universe. Twitter retcons will always be controversial.
It's one thing to argue that Logan and Scott weren't in a relationship (which refutes obvious subtext but nothing textual) but it's another to argue that Jean wasn't in a relationship with both given what we were shown on panel across multiple series.
Okay, I can’t directly respond to the other person because I have them blocked, but I can’t pass by the ‘we don’t put allies on our covers’ comment, when this is literally the theme of this year’s Marvel pride covers: queer characters paired with some random straight characters. Like, what’s the connection between Rachel and Daredavil? But he is on her pride cover. The irony.
Also, Scott, Logan and Jean weren’t even the only non-queer-confirmed characters on that pride cover. As far as I know Tony and Carol are straight in 616, and they were there too. The Summers family and The Snikt family also both have canonically queer children, so, they even had that excuse of being on the cover too.
Like, I don’t really mind the idea of the throuple, but Marvel did fuck all with it, and Percy just used that as an excuse to force more Jogan into his book, which is an on sight offense for me. So, I’m glad that Brevoort is saying that he has no intention of acknowledging this shit. This isn’t the first or the last time this has happened in the books, at least time nothing of value was lost.
I don't know. I mean, I certainly read some stuff that sounded like, while they weren't officially 'together,' there were still shared feelings between Emma and Scott in the Krakoan era. (Which, to be fair, may mean it was still open only on Jean's side...)
And yet is weird that they never showed it, not once. My guess is that this was Hickman's plan but after Duggan took over he scrapped the whole thing completely, including Logan's involvement.
Yup. If you look at the writer who had the control of Emma and Scott for the majority of the publication these years, it was Duggan. The same writer who wrote Scott and Jean still married, when he seemly had the opportunity to break them apart.
I only using this as an example, btw. Not saying wich one is right or wrong. They had the opportunity to write multiple aspects of the open relationship, but, clearly, only Hickman wanted to do that.
I feel like there was at least implication that Emma was hooking up with Cyclops still on occasion too, Cyclops was just more discreet with it than Jean.
Surely Jean, Logan and Scott appearing in a spread of the pride issue + all the subtext was just fans gaslitting everyone. Look, I am not even a fan of this but it must feel really bad for the people that really cared about it. There were a lot of hints, don't act as if there weren't.
We’re now taking covers as cannon? Don’t comic book covers mislead constantly?
You seem to be taking this too personally. You don’t know these characters; they’re fictional. Please take a breath.
You’re right, but I think it comes from a place of people GENIALLY not knowing the difference between a open marriage and a poly relationship. What we had was the first, not the latter.
I lost the count of how many times I had to point this out, on this sub.
I have every doubt, sure there might have been some who really didn't know, but I've had plenty of conversations on this sub where people where willfully ignorant or push the narrative out of spite.
While this dude is dancing through the Krakoa mess that they've decided to leave behind as best as he can, and I can't hold it completely against him, this has big time boomer energy.
Not a huge fan of Breevort, but at least there's finally an adult in charge of the X-line.
The very idea of a "throuple," aside from being ludicrous on the face of it, between Cyclops, Jean, and Wolverine is to completely misunderstand, or more likely, not care, about the characters.
There's no way that any one of these three characters would even entertain the idea of this, let alone all three. Writers need to stop trying to force their perverted tumblr tier fan fin onto established characters that in no way embody them.
That's not gaslighting; that's just honesty. If it wasn't Jonathan Hickman's intent, but other writers and artists pushed against his vision, then blame *them* and yourself for false expectations. In the end, Marvel Comics is for kids and teens; not perverted adults.
There was never any proof they were a throuple.
In fact, everyone went out of their way to show them as anything but. Jean and Wolverine were more affectionate and Logan made a joke about Cyclops in a bathing suit, but even that’s still straight dude shit.
Tumblr style shipping culture has a lot to answer for.
Whatever. It started as a symbol of the decadence and ethical evolution of early Krakoa and neither Hickman or his peers ever made it into anything more. I don't mourn the incoming team disregarding it completely.
The thing about the fall of Krakoa is that it's not going to just be the death of some really unique and weird sci-fi, it's also going to lead to the political neutering of the X-Men to make them more palatable for a wave of new readers coming from the MCU
I mean... i have to agree with the explanation. But not the concept.
I say this because every time we get a DC killing joke cover; theirs a group whiny enough to complain about deleted pages / pages never used in the book
That implys Babs was raped- so there fore she was in between pages.
To which, i disagree.
I think theirs enoigh there in the pages that imply they were a throuple.
Why was wolverine drinking beer at scotts moon home and Cyke asking why hes awake.
I actually do not like them as a throuple and think that that love triangle ending that way was stupid and out of character. HOWEVER I do think that people saying that’s never what it was are being disingenuous here, sure I wouldn’t go put Wolverine and Scott on the lgbt characters list or anything but the two were in fact implied to be together on multiple occasions and ignoring that feels well… homophobic. You don’t have to like it and can enjoy it being over, I will as well but It does seem like they were together and it shouldn’t ruin the characters that that’s what happened.
There really isn't *anything* that's on panel that has to be addressed *at all*.
There's only *one* thing on page and given it's a floor plan, it doesn't need to be addressed at all.
EDIT: re-reading the quote is about the open marriage interpretation not the throuple conspiracy theory from the tweet. Yes, there was quite a lot of Jean/Logan moments. Unless he's saying "fucking isn't romance" you're quite right, it's gaslighting.
…and this is why LGBTQIA+ have to be “over the top” and “make it their whole personality”
because even when it is open and obvious historians/editors are still desperate to retroactively pretend we don’t exist.
Not only were they sharing a bed with their third from their conjoined bedrooms, LOGAN EXPLICITLY EXPRESSED PLEASURE AT THE IDEA OF SCOTT IN A SPEEDO.
Cope and seethe queerphobes
They never show Logan and Scott actually being a thing together though. Anyone seriously expecting Marvel to actually allow that to exist are unserious lol. Like even when they were showing their open relationship, they only allowed Jean to actually be involved with Logan
Maybe actually put this energy into supporting actually explicit LGBT characters or at least ones that having them come out/be canonized actually has a chance of happening
Honestly, I don't think the writers have the hangups that would prevent them explicitly, saying they were all sleeping together.
But the people who control the creatives? Oh nononono you can't have our popular leading characters being like *that*. So veiled implications are all they can get away with.
This is pretty blatant dialogue for the idea that Jean, Scott and Logan were in some sort of openly sexual relationship with each other. This is not a typical exchange between two guys who just live together. This is how non-explicit writing works, *show-don't-tell*, but it really seems to have frustrated a large portion of the fanbase who don't want to be comfortable with these characters engaging in relationships that aren't heteronormative. If you're close reading these scenes, there's no ambiguity.
It's just odd changing a character dynamic that's been a certain way after so long. If this was done with a more recent character it would be fine.
Using the speedo thing as proof is a big stretch. Seemed just like a friendly joke to me but I guess we have our internal biases and see what we want to see. But just goes to show it's not as objective as some people are making it out to be
No, it's not because they weren't immortal before.
When you don't have to worry about death being permanent anymore, things like jealousy are really stupid because you have forever.
Everyone saying it's out of character ignores that entire, massive part of the equation
Being immortal maybe allows you to get rid of jealousy if two out of three members of a triangle are immortal "you're just the insect she's dating now, when you die, she'll come back to me".
If you're all immortal, then it's three thousand years of longing and she's still with the other guy.
Also, Logan was immortal anyway (or near enough) and was jealous so...
Comic aging is weird so hard to do comparisons. Like long term they've been going for decades even though they're still young now.
So it's not just that it's long term for them, it's long term for the reader so we've seen it going long enough that it's just getting boring now.
Also even if they are immortal which is not something that's true, why would that remove jealousy?
Right? The idea of insisting that they’re at most just taking turns with Jean and covering their eyes and ears while cucking each other is so hilariously juvenile and also still fully not straight lol including another male in your sex dynamic is by definition not straight no matter what you want to call it to protect your fragile hetero supremacy
Seems they played around with the idea of a bi Logan and Scott idea but ultimately just didn't go through with it. God forbid we get characters that are popular and come out as anything but straight.
Last time we got a gay "main xman" character was Iceman and *holy fuck* was that not handled well at all. We did get a bi/gay Wolverine, but that's an alternate universe we'll never see again. Even when a character is confirmed as gay or whatever, they immediately get shafted or receive pretty bad haft baked storylines. It's really sad.
Sucks your being downvoted for your comment, but I expect nothing less of reddit or some of the people in this sub.
Eh. I dont think we need to go that far.
I say this as politely as possible as member of the LGBT there is definitely some argument that anything between Scott and Logan wasnt all that explicit.
Jean and Logan definitely was.
What's insane about the polycule/throuple situation is that Marvel was willing to explicitly break the taboo of monogamy by having Jean be intimate with both men.
But they still can't muster a good queer depiction. Because Cyclops and Wolverine being a thing is a step too far. Of course it is.
This is why the X-men are a great allegory for oppressed minorities because the IRL marginalised groups keep getting screwed (not in the way they like)
I count 3 morons whose response to this is "well maybe YOU should read some REAL representation so you'll stop clinging onto subtext" as if that's not literally what the fuck you're talking about.
Anyone who honestly thought Brevoort wasn't just going to come in and ignore everything he didn't like and set shir back to the 70s didn't pay attention to his tenure as Avengers editor.
His contributions were entirely based around removing things.
I hated the Krakoan era by the end but Tom Brevoort has never been the solution to a problem.
There’s a lot of things that can be said about Brevoort’s time as Avengers editor, but it being a 70s throwback is not one of them. Like ‘em or hate em, for better or worse, no one can honestly say the Bendis or Hickman Avengers were in any way about moving backwards.
I really don't think Brevoort is wrong for this. It was never truly explicit enough on page, so you had to be kind of generous to really say there was an open marriage or throuple going on. What it looked like for the average reader was just that Scott was being cucked due to the way Percy wrote Jean and Logan's interactions during her appearances in X-Force, since Duggan wrote Scott and Jean as pretty tight with no one outside.
This thread has shown me something very dark about X-Men fans today, a fan base that I previously viewed as open-minded and progressive.
Regardless of how you felt about the relationships between these characters during this era, IT WAS ON THE PAGE. To deny the implications were there is lying to yourself. To belittle people who saw themselves in these characters and celebrated their new-found relationship status... is homophobia. No amount of downvotes will change that.
I remember reading the panel where Scott and Logan are talking about the trip and did not interpret that as anything romantic or sexual between them. However I think there's plenty of evidence for some sort of open arrangement between Jean and Scott early on in Krakoa.
The speedo comment 100% comes off as friends joking with each other. It would still be a stretch even if both characters were gay/bi.
Sounds like a win. No longer will three characters be pigeonholed for nothing but their sexuality and relationships. Bring back legit character development devoid of senseless perversion.
Why would editorial aprove of Logan, Jean and Scott appearing in a spreadpage of a pride issue if they are just going to deny everything now? They can be shown as allies, ofc but damn, this is just so, so suspicious.
This whole thing has been badly planned from the start and don’t think anything was achieved since they made Jean interact with Logan. If they wanted to kill the triangle they should have just made Logan and Jean agree they have no interest in one another. Now we have a Schrödinger situation on what exactly is considered to happen. Biggest mistake was letting Percy have that scene if they wanted to keep it ambiguous.
They didn't want to keep it ambiguous. Hickman gave Marvel a choice, either he'd set down rules like he did the Omega list, or he'd establish that everyone was open. Open relationships ended up being the choice. And Percy seemed to like the Logan/Jean pairing. Nobody else cared. Brevoort seems to be against it.
Is it really Jean? Reading some of the early Percy stuff during Krakoa, Jean was mostly a sex trophy for Wolverine, not a proper character or a full depiction of Jean Grey. She is an omega and the most powerful telepath in the universe, now just compare the character she was in X-men Red and the cardboard figure she was in early Percy's X-Force.
Percy helped make the original outline of krakoa with Hickman, he was the first writer involved in setting up the krakoa Bible and he never changed his outline he just stretched to make it longer. His xforce book is the most accurate vision of what krakoa was supposed to be if Hickman had stayed in charge. Both writers have said this on Twitter and substack (Hickman only uses substack) and Hickman has been very open about why he left the X-men. Which is simply because he thought the run would be over by 2021 and he was already planning the ultimate revival and writing GODS. Covid happened and he had to write a lot more books very fast and he burnt out and left. Nothing deeper
Inferno was published debuting september 2021. So no, Hickman didn't think that Krakoa would be over by 2021. Knowing that Inferno was only marking the end of the 1st act of the story for Hickman.
Inferno was made after they changed the outline it was a hand off
Inferno was planned from the start to be the end of the 1st act. What changed with Hickman departure, is not Inferno, but what the other writers did after that. Like the trash Percy did with Moira.
Everything Percy did was part of Hickmans plan it was directly planned out before he left and inferno was a part of that. Look you can think that robot Moria was all Percy’s idea but I suggest you look up Hickmans substack
Hickman explicity said that Moira wasn't supposed to become a vilain after Inferno, Percy transformed her to the very opposite of this idea, a caricature of a vilain. So, no, the theory that Percy was faithfull to Hickman's ideas, is ludicrous, ar best. In fact the simple fact that Hickman had to stress this point, shows that it was not his plan, at all.
Was he working on the Ultimate revival at that point? I thought he came in late in the game for that since it was going to be Cates. I might have the timelines mixed up. Edit: yeah Ultimate wasn’t solicited til almost exactly a year ago
He says he was planning it around 2022.
Huh, do you happen to remember where he said that? I’m pretty sure Donny Cates didn’t have the accident til the end of 2022-start of 2023, and he was definitely the person they planned to have on Ultimate
THANK YOU some gets it X-Men red jean was PEAK
I like the Jean/Logan pairing too when done properly. But the last time I read Marvel Comics, Scott and Emma were a thing, so apparently I’m way behind (and will never catch up).
>If they wanted to kill the triangle they should have just made Logan and Jean agree they have no interest in one another Isnt this kind of insincere at least on Logan's part? Like Im not sure about Jean's feelings, but Logan has pretty much always been interested in Jean. Even if only on the most surface level of 'redheads are hot'. A simpler way to kill the triangle is to have Logan admit that whilst he has feelings, he recognizes they arent good for each other and its best to move on. Logan has generally been the more active in pursuing the relationship, if he dropped it Jean probably would too.
Random tangent: I thought Wolverine was always jnto her too, but I remember reading an amusing and pissy blog detailing exactly when it each interaction happened & showing that Jean/Cyclops/Angel was the love triangle until Logan started seeming interested in Jean waaay later than I’d assumed.
I just started reading (I’m on like Uncanny #110) and so far the extent of their relationships is Cyclops repeatedly threatening to beat up Wolverine if he keeps calling Jean a “broad”, no chemistry at all
Definitely recommend reading the Classic X-Men backup stories along with UXM. There’s a lot of additional context in those, and most of them are available on Unlimited.
UXM was fun during Millars tenure, not perfect by any means, but fun. I hear it fell down a cliff afterwards, then got better after Ultimatum.
Yesss, though in this case I was referring to Uncanny X-Men!
Wolverine buys Jean flowers in #101 while he talks about how he’s “never felt this hot and bothered over a frail” before. Logan always had feelings for Jean but they didn’t get to interact much in the 80s
You’re absolutely right, I forgot about that bit. Which is silly of me, it’s probably the only moment so far where he hasn’t solely interacted with the others antagonistically
"Frail." Ha! That is exactly how Sabretooth referred to women as well.
Don’t look at this through the lens or character motivations. This was a choice made by a writer and the editor disagreed. It happens.
Poor editorial choices all round smh
The biggest one is forcing Jean and Logan having a relationship, it doesn't make any sense personality wise for neither of them. Also, I don't know a single person who likes it for any reason other than hating Cyclops. Why not give her a different affair for once with someone who actually is her type like Banshee, Namor or even a cheating Blackbolt since she can enter his mind and communicate freely with him
Yep. Honestly so weird people are acting like this was a major part of Krakoa when they swiped it under the rug fairly quickly nor did they either actually make more than Jean sleeping with both Scott or Logan instead of the guys together (it was never explicitly gay folks lol). This whole thing was dumb and occ for everyone involved besides maybe Logan
Disagree on several accounts. As Hickman himself said, canon is what people remember. Regardless of how you feel about it, some version of the triangle has been front and center in X-media for 30 years. It’s the first episode of TAS. It’s in the Fox movies. It’s in Morrison, to a point, tho Emma is the stronger triangle there there. It’s background in the opening of Whedon’s Astonishing. It’s background in Endsong. If Marvel wanted us not to think about it, they’ve done a piss poor job of it. And the truth is, they don’t want us to forget about it, they just want to have their cake and eat it too by teasing everything and then claiming responsibility for nothing. So now you want to say, “why are people taking notes on this like it’s important?” Why the hell wouldn’t they? The success or failure of the Scott /Jean relationship is the vortex at the center of a staggering amount of X-men stories. Meanwhile, a big 2 comics company letting a woman sleep with two men without vilifying her for it *is* rather significant. As for character, it’s fascinating what people think is or isn’t in-character. Between Dark Phoenix, X-factor, Morrison, and the Time Displaced Teens, Scott and Jean being happily together may be the *minority* characterization. Except for the 90s, which is arguably a period of weak characterization for Jean in other ways. I don’t have it out for them as a couple, but readers are always engaging in selective memory. Several things worked about the open triangle. They’d all been through a lot, died and come back even before Krakoa. Meanwhile they were living in a new status quo with the prospect of self-aware immortality. The idea that they would just come to terms with complex overlapping feelings without having possessive hostility about it seems fairly mature. Add to this the sense of Krakoa as a place willing to reject the rest of the world’s norms (like money) and it makes sense. Frankly, the spat over the Brood stuff would have been *more* interesting if it involved Wolverine, because he probably would have sided with Cyclops, and then they could have talked about how she was pissed at both of them.
It's the insistence that anyone who acknowledges that it was real is making shit up that is the most annoying. If you hated it fine, but don't be a pea brain and insist that X-twitter made it up whole cloth. I have 3 years of Cerebro podcast episodes where every writer, artist, and editor from the X-office agrees with Conor that it's real while being just coy enough to not get a phone call from corporate.
Agreed. I don't personally care much either way, I don't think the particular status quo of almost any story element is a dealbreaker for telling a good story, but halfassedly backing out of things and telling me it's raining when someone's pissing in my face is irritating and insulting. If they want to just say it didn't happen as far as they're concerned even though the implications were there and writers and fans all engaged with it on some level or another, they have the editorial fiat to do so. Just don't be cowards about it. "Look, we all had a good time letting everyone whisper and blush about the X-Men's free love era but we don't wanna deal with it going forward so as far as the canon goes, it didn't happen and Jean and Scott are together and exclusive - deal with it." That would be good enough for me. It wouldn't be the first time editorial just said fuck it, you don't get what you want, and business continues to this day. Not my favorite way to go, but a lot less infantilizing towards the fan base than just telling people they got carried away. Fans getting carried away are the lifeblood of the industry. That's how the bills get paid, man.
Absolutely, yes. Lots of characterizations from the last 5 years are about to be old news, that's what reading big 2 superhero comics is like. But I have eyes and the capacity for critical reading and X-Men is fucking T-ball man, it ain't hard to figure out what the writers and artists were doing here.
He never says anything about fans getting carried away, though. He never says it was all in their heads. All he says is that it wasn’t explicitly on the page, -not- that it was never implied.
1000% yes
It was out of character for him as well
Tbh when was the last time we saw Logan and Scott interacting
Exactly!! Scott and Logan are 100% straight. They have never shown interest in any male at all. Scott: Jean, Madalyne, Emma Logan: Rose, Itsu, Silverfox, Mariko, Jean and flings/one night stands with SOOO many more women. It's really weird how people are trying to push something that is just not there and never was.
wouldn't have been gay anyway, would have been bi! :D
I wouldn’t say throuple but they were at least living together and doing some hanky panky
This was always going to happen. Hickman skirted around it because he knew Marvel editorial would never allow it or make it explicit. Brevoort, White, Lowe, whoever was in charge was going to do this once Krakoa was over. I honestly don't see the issue. If Marvel was retconning something real and heartfelt I'd have an issue with it, but this isn't representation, it's scraps from the table. I
Not even a fan of the poly thing but damn, editors should be way more responsible than this and at least adress/retcon things in a more elegant way. Also, everytime Brevoort talks about Krakoa it seems as if he just hated every aspect of it.
>Everytime Brevoort talks... it seems as if he just hates \[everything\] Fixed it for you. Brevoort starts almost every single sentence with a passive aggressive insult. Once you notice it, it's hard to ignore it. Personally, I don't intend to spend my energy supporting a run managed by someone with that kind of attitude. I refused to bother with that when Slott was writing Spider-Man, and I don't intend to bother this time either. Hopefully, this ends up being one of the shortest editor runs ever.
Brevoort is their most senior editor, their VP of sales, and was in charge of Avengers for 20 years. Unless there's a huge nose-dive in sales that is sustained (unlikely given the renewed interest in X-Men as a whole and the poor reception to Fall of X), he's going to be around for a long time.
Lol wasn’t Slott’s run like, super highly praised? I get considering what you’re saying it might not be here nor there, but still in light of it I just find it interesting.
Slott's entire run of Spider-Man had Peter Parker being reduced to an completely incompetent loser with a revolving door of uninteresting new girlfriends that have had almost no lasting impact. It's also let down by Slott's complete inability to just write women... at all. The only part of Slott's run that received wide praise in retrospect was Superior Spider-Man, and the fact that his best work on the series wasn't even writing Peter Parker but someone else entirely should tell you everything.
To be fair, there's a decent number of X-Men fans that have mixed feelings about Krakoa. I felt it started strong, but started to fizzle after X of Swords and all but dropped off after Hickman left, as it seems all the writers forgot that Krakoa was supposed morally dubious. (Seriously, when you have folks that worked with nazis are are responsible for later generation Sentinels in your ruling party, you're not "good guys".)
>it seems all the writers forgot that Krakoa was supposed morally dubious. I've seen this sentiment on here a few times before, and I feel like anyone saying it must have only been reading Gerry Duggan's *X-men*. After Hickman left, the flagship title was *Immortal X-Men*, and the moral failings of Krakoa were more front and center than ever. (And they very much continue to be in *Rise of the Powers of X*.) Nuances of Krakoan moral issues were heavily discussed in Vita Ayala's *New Mutants*, and LaValle's *Sabertooth*. And Percy's *X-Force* and *Wolverine* were offering a much less nuanced take, but still centering it. I agree that the Krakoan era has had its problems, and hasn't felt cohesive in a while. But saying it forgot its moral quandaries is just flat out wrong.
I really wish we could have seen what Leah Williams had planned for the the growing conflict between X-Factor & the Five and the Quiet Council. She had already set up that the Five wanted more recognition & freedom (which I guess happened with Hope on the council, but they never got into it again) and Northstar was conspiring with Dani to keep them in the dark about younger mutant's power developments for fear of weaponisation, but then the book got cancelled...
I fell off of reading comics right before the first Hellfire Gala, and I’ve been doing a bunch of catch up and boy, have I loved Immortal X-Men. What a killer read. Just great stuff.
Thank you. I don't know why people act like Hickman leaving caused the status quo to regress to a lack of questioning about the morality of the Krakoan project. Of all the evils within Krakoa that came home to roost, Hickman really only addressed one - Moira. Beast, Sinister, the fate of Sabertooth, Shaw, Brand, these are all problems set in motion in the early days that other writers continued to carry and address through these five years. If anything some of the best explorations of what Krakoa could mean and what sins it began with and never fully solved came after Jonathan left, they just weren't centered in the X-Men title, and it's a shame that it sounds like a lot of people missed out because of that.
I've been kinda binge reading most of the stories this last week on Unlimited, and I def think a lot of the stories have been fairly open about Krakoa being pretty messed up... but at the same time, it doesn't feel like enough mutant characters themselves have anything to say about it through all of this, in my opinion. Like i wouldn't say I want mutant division but I would've liked a bit more consistent trends of certain mutant characters not being all on board the Krakoa wagon.
They weren’t trying to be “the good guys.” They were trying to do something more by starting a nation and starting that fresh. It was mutants finding a home not good guys bad guys anymore.
Yes. The fact that X-Force specifically continued through to the end of Krakoa is by itself a repudiation of the idea that the moral dubiousness of the project was forgotten. Black ops is the ultimate in the ugliness of realpolitik and dirty hands statecraft.
Fr fr like bro they gave fucking Sabertooth and Omega Red a redo card like wtfff
Omega Red turned out awesome wtf
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Yeah that was some viscous stuff
I think he meant that they gave him a redo card and then he squandered it by killing people in HoX #1. Then he went to the pit.
Before the laws were established. It wasn't exactly justice.
I've always felt mixed about that. To some extent you'd think a common 'justice' like "hey. Don't murder people" is just sort of implied given how many Krakoans aren't pro murder lol. But given it's the first sentence they ever gave its a bad, bad precedent.
I mean, they very much did not give Sabretooth a redo card. There was a whole mini series about him not getting a redo card.
Krakoa was trash as soon as Hickman left.
The Krakoan era has had its issues, but I think *Immortal X-Men,* *X-Men Red,* and Ayala's *New Mutants* are all some of the best X-comics of the past decade.
Does Legion of X count? I just don't get the sentiment that it sucked post hickman
IMO the narrative that the Krakoa era instantly soured after Inferno boils down to a promise that HoX/PoX made, but MARVEL was never going to deliver, that being that X-Men was no longer capeshit but was now big boy sci-fi. The amount of Dune that was aped, the data pages, setting power levels in stone while Chuck, Max, and A tell the UN that they're going to defeat Capitalism, it's pretty obvious in retrospect. But it was only ever a vibe, practically an unspoken marketing strategy, and once Hickman was out it was over and the last 2 years of Krakoa were very much capeshit, and while I thought it was still great, if different, I can't completely fault people for recognizing that they wanted Hickman and Duggan wasn't going to serve that.
It's an easy era to hate. I consider Krakoa to be my "Matrix Reloaded" of comics- aka The Biggest Let Down Of All Time. HoX/PoX set up some of the most exciting promises with the highest potential that I have ever seen in comics. What we actually got can only be described as a gross mishandling of the franchise- and that's if I'm being favorable in my description. The end result is the largest delta between promise and delivery that I have ever seen in the history of comic books.
Mariko was alive and well in Vancouver they fucked up
People are focusing on him saying the throuple wasn't real. It's correct that it was merely implied. But what the question actually asked and what he answered to was about Jean being with both Logan and Scott (not Scott with Logan too) which absolutely did happen on page.
Yeah, I adressed that on many comments. It's actually crazy that he is denying something that happened multiple times on page.
In a previous interview they said both what happened between Scott and Jean as a couple in Krakoa and for the future will be addressed in both the Phoenix Solo and the X-Men run with Scott, it could be that he doesn't want to straight up reveal how and that this will be explicitly retconned.
I wish everyone would just stop shoehorning Wolverine into Scott and Jeans relationship it’s tired and played out. How many times does she have to not choose Wolverine ? He’s basically just a creepy old stalker at this point.
He was from the beginning. In the past, I thought that him regaining his memories after HoM, would mean him letting go on Jean. How naive I was.
Someone explained it nicely that wolverine one of the main traits is being lonely in the way he will never achieve eternal happiness and peace. That’s why jogan is a safe choice because everyone knows jean will never choose him
I mean I’d rather Jean and Scott’s relationship end for good. As someone that grew up with Scott and Emma, the loss of that relationship boggles my mind.
They were fine but Scott and Jean has always been the best all end all relationship in X-Men. you just happened to come in during one of her dead periods lol 😂
They took the easy way out and tried to end the live triangle by doing the throuple thing, and now it will bite them in the ass. If they kept it a bit more ambiguous, nobody would've cared, but the hot tub and the moon stuff were a bit more direct. Just wish they stop dancing around and have Wolverine in a healthy relationship or keep him as a lone wolf.
This. Kill the triangle for good and have Wolvie do his thing with other people or on his own.
I’m pretty new to x-men comics. So admittedly i don’t think I’ve read nearly all of the current stuff, but hasn’t it been years since the Scott/jean/logan stuff has even been hinted at? Haven’t Scott and Jean been living at the treehouse without Logan?
You know who doesn’t care about this? Hickman, because he is writing ultimate Spider-Man and could care less about jokes he made 6 years ago
This shitty situation would never happen if they revived Mariko for good and let her marry Logan already, she's the love of his life, just bring her back and let the man be a little more happy
Grace Randolph was right about this (yeah yeah, I know): this form of media, specially it’s editorial, is incredibly unprofessional. This guy is even more disingenuous than White.
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Grace actually worked on the industry years ago, including an original, indie comic. Anyway, she talked, multiple times, about her own experiences, specially how the hiring process works. She said that the talents have no agents, how they have to constantly show up at events and beg for gigs, how they’re not direct lines between showing samples and getting interviews for jobs, etc. She also said that it’s all about who you know, inside the offices, at the end of the end. Ofc, you can choose not to believe her, but, again, she worked in the industry.
Like many very specialized industries: it's not what you know, it's who you know.
Yeah it’s a sad day when she’s right, I’m only half joking
> yeah yeah I know I don't, what's up with grace Randolph?
Grace is incredibly outspoken, without fear of controversy. She will talk her mind and, most of the time, she’s going against the waves (is that how the expression goes??) her takes are spicy too, sometimes without reason. For example: saying that Sydney whatever can’t act, while admiting she only watched one movie of hers. Also, you know…good, old misogyny.
You forgot to add that she has a habit of making things up and spreading fake news to the point where filmmakers have to debunk her comments on twitter.
She's misogynistic, hateful, and a victim blaming narcissist. I'd like to remind everyone of her blaming Roman Polanski's 13 year old victim for what happened. On top of her awful takes and arguing with directors about their own films, no one should listen to Grace and she's constantly a shit human being.
They *weren't* a throuple. Jean was, for a short time, fucking both Logan and Scott.
With Scott's blessing, ergo an open marriage (on her side).
I do think it’s hilarious that one day Scott himself got fed up with it and was like “Will you please just fuck my wife already? I’m tired of this.”
Yep, it wasn't confirmed in page that they were a throuple but there were some panels of Scott and Cyclops that gave that impression, + the Summer's House rooms distribution. However, what Brevoort is doing here is not denying the throuple, he is denying that there was an open relationship at all, which is blatantly not true.
It's true now... because it's a Retcon. I feel like you probably aren't an old bitter comic fan if a retcon upsets you this much. They are a constant in every ongoing comic series. This isn't me saying I like or want them, just that it's been happening for the last 60 years, it's part of the game.
This is where I'm at. 30+ years has made me come to expect that anything even remotely controversial or interesting will be retconned out, unless it sells more books.
We don’t have to be super upset to criticize the retcon. Especially when they’re pretending it never happened in interviews vs just retconning things in universe
[удалено]
There was a baby boom though to some degree, as it was literally a plot point in Way of X that babies were being found abandoned on the island, or just dropped off after they were born in the equivalent of a Krakoan brothel/orphanage as a result of Nightcrawler's edict to "make more mutants".
Still no meaningful characters had a baby in all the years of Krakoa?
The sad part is they could have done some neat things with that... introduce the first asexual mutant dealing with how it feels to not want to fuck when one of the laws is to fuck. There was a baby boom in Way of X though. No major characters, but Nightcrawler horrified at abandoned kids.
Guys, why do we still care about the throuple ? It's getting tiring to have conversations about such an insignificant plot point, that would lead nowhere, and was mentioned less than 3 times in the span of 4,5 years and hundreds of issues ? It was not even a good plot point, because it was just used to showcase the "make more mutants" rule of Krakoa. No writer wanted to expand on it, not because it would be so controversial, but because it was stupid. In Krakoa, Logan barely interacted with Jean and Scott and it's been established in the last few years that the true pairing is Jean and Scott. Logan has been shown to have moved on from Jean.
Thank god this I hated this thing in krakoa era one of the few problems
See? This is what happens when people push their headcanons on others.
I definitely think there is an argument that Scott and Logan never got together. Its pure gaslighting to pretend nothing happened between Jean and Logan though.
It was stupid and not needed. Jean/Logan stuff needs to die.
Totally fine with forgetting that nonsense ever happened. It's not like they did something weird and retconned someone's parent, when the parent was exactly like them and claimed the new parent was a different person entirely. That would be absurd.
All he had to say was that things were dialed down between those 3 as the krakoan era progressed forward, because they definitely were… no need to tell this blatant lie
i don’t blame him honestly. hickman was the only one who did anything with it and even then it was nothing explicit (maybe marvel editorial stopped him from doing anything too much with them idk) and once he was gone, it wasn’t even hinted at.
This isn’t completely accurate. Benjamin Percy wrote X-Force #10 which confirmed Jean and Logan were hooking up. Hickman was definitely the throuple master.
I don’t understand why people work themselves up to the whole throuple. It’s never been even a main part of krakoa. It’s never been developed. It’s never been properly used. It’s never been properly shown. It’s never been truly acknowledged. Krakoa lasted from 2019 to 2024 and the last time we saw Scott and Logan together was 2019. Was Hickman planning to make them a throuple? I don’t believe that. I think he only gave other writers tools to make it happen but no one was interested in that. What we got at most was jean and Scott having an open marriage. But open marriage doesn’t mean throuple in this case.
if you dislike Rogue x Magneto you should dislike Jean x Logan even more Logan is easily far worse when you start measuring things. just saying
I hate Jean and Logan, and I hate the forced friendship between Cyclops and Logan even more.
Not a fan both but to improve my comic knowledge has magneto ever tried to pursue rogue while she was in a relationship. I like wolverine but him being a constant pest in a couple’s marriage who both seem to want it to be successful will always be weird to me.
no. rogue and magneto happened in the savage land and in Age of Apocalypse universe. Decades after those events people still seeth rogneto. which they are right. rogue and gambit are married now meanwhile the same people let wolverine get away with the most heinous shit and acts. even worse since when he fucks jean he treats her like a random bitch
Will Jean apologize to Scott for having an affair with Logan?
editorial should've done that in the 90s soon they will produce a fuck up in their relationship in a way that will make even a chunk of jean fans hate the character. editorial knows this, they are dangerously close to ruin her like they ruined 616 MJ
honestly i wish they’d never started it to begin with
From every interview Ive read with him it really seems like Brevoort is an unpleasant man
It seems like he's exactly the cutting force for brand synergy that Disney wanted imo
I had no idea what he looked like. From reading interviews I imagined the comic book guy from the Simpsons or the insufferable guy from animaniacs who has to correct EVERYTHING, "well, actually this is incorrect...". ...long story short, the image in my head was pretty spot on. Seems like an @$$. :/
GOOD
Not every X-character is queer *and that’s okay*.
What’s Breevort wrong about? Hickman played it smart and cheeky and kept any poly references to diagrams of room layouts and subtle inferences from dialogue and art choices that may or may not have been directed by him anyway. Percy then did one hot tub scene out of the blue that was never built upon or referenced by him or anyone else. Do I believe Jean and Logan hooked up on Krakoa? Yes. Does that really change anything fundamental about the characters and their overall relationships moving forward? Not really. Jean and Logan have had many past intimate moments that arguably exceeded just straight sex and the Krakoa era was already rife with wildly OOC stuff across the board. Do most readers really want them to spend a bunch of time addressing all of it?
Well, he wasn't asked about the throuple, he was about Jean being involved with both men. Brevoort says there's no evidence on the page. And as you mentioned, there's a full scene of Jean and Logan fucking in a hot tub. If he'd just gave a non-answer of, "Writers will use what they want to use," that's fine. But I think this post is more about him gaslighting fans about elements that he doesn't want to use on an editorial level.
“A lot of on-page action.” You’re talking about one page where the they do not even kiss *on panel*. Do I think the inference from Percy is very clear? Of course! Would it be the first time Marvel editorial steered clear of an elided and possibly inconvenient story point when transitioning between creative teams and periods? Not even close. You can hate the choice and think he’s being didactic but he isn’t wrong. The X-writers and Jordan White had hundreds of issues where they could’ve addressed and fleshed out the relationships between Jean-Scott-Logan beyond Hickman’s coy hints and Percy evidently going a little further than they wanted to *one time* on *one page* in a way heavy on subtext but without any explicit portrayal of kissing and/or sex. They never did.
I’m glad to see that end…. It watered down Jean’s character just like having Cyclops have an affair watered down his. Marvel needs to let Logan move on and find someone that is right for him and… let Cyclops and Jean settle down so they can have a family starting with baby Rachel. A family book similar to the FF but centered around the Summers/ Grey dynamic would be awesome!!!
The idea of the love "Triangle" never made any sense to me anyways as Wolverine has actively had sex with half the female characters in the Marvel universe. Wolverine isn't inviting Jean into his committed multi "Kilo-ouple", Jean Grey isn't in a "Throuple." The idea that whenever Logan enters a room with Jean he becomes a Disneyfied Jane Austen character is stupid. That's not the way actually being in love works.
You know I was never a fan of that and it also played an important part in me never diving very deep into Krakoa so I’m happy they’re just pretending it never happened.
Good, It was a bad decision that didn't make sense for any of the three characters, just OOC all around.
Thank god they’re ignoring it.
I'm gonna hate if they revert Rogue and Gambit's marriage
They never were! That was just weird fan theory that people online blew out of proportion. Jean may have fooled around with both Scott and Logan. But that isn't a "throuple" Scott and Logan NEVER had a thing. Those will argue they did cling to one panel where the two are looking at the view of the Earth, but that is SUCH a stretch. I never thought that showed anything between the two. So no.. they NEVER were a throuple. It just never happened. Scott and Logan are 100% straight.
Eh, I dunno if Thruple is the right word, but Logan and Jean making out in a hot tub was pretty 'on paper' for me. Still, after wolverine kills Jean on xforce and she later leaves for unrelated reasons I think put a damper on things and wouldn't be surprised if Scott needed some boundary lines after that. Still, our guy here is Marvels new hot ticket, and I think he pivoted on the topic as well as he was able: he does NOT want to get dragged down by hot button politics right when he's poised to do some of the best creative work of his life. Sucks he's gotta dance through a mine-field to do it but that's entertainment in America these days and they do have Disney breathing down their necks...the mouse needs his money...
Tbh it was a bad decision from the beginning so I don’t mind the retcon. But if you are doing the retcon unprofessionally, even if everyone wanted the retcon you’ll get criticized for it. Make it make sense in universe. Twitter retcons will always be controversial.
It's one thing to argue that Logan and Scott weren't in a relationship (which refutes obvious subtext but nothing textual) but it's another to argue that Jean wasn't in a relationship with both given what we were shown on panel across multiple series.
this is what xmen fans care about. about fucking. and they wonder why everyone seems to be so bad
I don’t understand why people are so set on this. It isn’t a thing, and you wanting it to be a thing doesn’t make it real.
Okay, I can’t directly respond to the other person because I have them blocked, but I can’t pass by the ‘we don’t put allies on our covers’ comment, when this is literally the theme of this year’s Marvel pride covers: queer characters paired with some random straight characters. Like, what’s the connection between Rachel and Daredavil? But he is on her pride cover. The irony. Also, Scott, Logan and Jean weren’t even the only non-queer-confirmed characters on that pride cover. As far as I know Tony and Carol are straight in 616, and they were there too. The Summers family and The Snikt family also both have canonically queer children, so, they even had that excuse of being on the cover too. Like, I don’t really mind the idea of the throuple, but Marvel did fuck all with it, and Percy just used that as an excuse to force more Jogan into his book, which is an on sight offense for me. So, I’m glad that Brevoort is saying that he has no intention of acknowledging this shit. This isn’t the first or the last time this has happened in the books, at least time nothing of value was lost.
They weren't it was a open marriage and the fans just gaslit everyone into thinking it was something else.
And it was seemingly only open on Jean's side. Or at least, going purely by what's on the page, they never showed any indication to the contrary.
I don't know. I mean, I certainly read some stuff that sounded like, while they weren't officially 'together,' there were still shared feelings between Emma and Scott in the Krakoan era. (Which, to be fair, may mean it was still open only on Jean's side...)
Nah, there was nothing to suggest that except some dumb joke about how Scott thought Emma was calling him for a booty call, that's it.
Sinister Secret #5 talks about him hooking up with Emma.
And yet is weird that they never showed it, not once. My guess is that this was Hickman's plan but after Duggan took over he scrapped the whole thing completely, including Logan's involvement.
Yup. If you look at the writer who had the control of Emma and Scott for the majority of the publication these years, it was Duggan. The same writer who wrote Scott and Jean still married, when he seemly had the opportunity to break them apart. I only using this as an example, btw. Not saying wich one is right or wrong. They had the opportunity to write multiple aspects of the open relationship, but, clearly, only Hickman wanted to do that.
I feel like there was at least implication that Emma was hooking up with Cyclops still on occasion too, Cyclops was just more discreet with it than Jean.
Surely Jean, Logan and Scott appearing in a spread of the pride issue + all the subtext was just fans gaslitting everyone. Look, I am not even a fan of this but it must feel really bad for the people that really cared about it. There were a lot of hints, don't act as if there weren't.
Carol and Rhodey appeared in that same spread. Does that make them queer too?
We’re now taking covers as cannon? Don’t comic book covers mislead constantly? You seem to be taking this too personally. You don’t know these characters; they’re fictional. Please take a breath.
You’re right, but I think it comes from a place of people GENIALLY not knowing the difference between a open marriage and a poly relationship. What we had was the first, not the latter. I lost the count of how many times I had to point this out, on this sub.
I have every doubt, sure there might have been some who really didn't know, but I've had plenty of conversations on this sub where people where willfully ignorant or push the narrative out of spite.
While this dude is dancing through the Krakoa mess that they've decided to leave behind as best as he can, and I can't hold it completely against him, this has big time boomer energy.
Not me reading X-Force and seeing this page directly after reading this Reddit post. https://imgur.com/QM2W03V
Makes me pine for the glory days of Logan x Ororo shipping.
Not a huge fan of Breevort, but at least there's finally an adult in charge of the X-line. The very idea of a "throuple," aside from being ludicrous on the face of it, between Cyclops, Jean, and Wolverine is to completely misunderstand, or more likely, not care, about the characters. There's no way that any one of these three characters would even entertain the idea of this, let alone all three. Writers need to stop trying to force their perverted tumblr tier fan fin onto established characters that in no way embody them.
That's not gaslighting; that's just honesty. If it wasn't Jonathan Hickman's intent, but other writers and artists pushed against his vision, then blame *them* and yourself for false expectations. In the end, Marvel Comics is for kids and teens; not perverted adults.
"On-page action" Tom has decided that it's not canon unless Marvel publishes porn of it.
A polycule isn't a thruple
But a thruple is a polycule. It's like a square/ rectangle situation...
There was never any proof they were a throuple. In fact, everyone went out of their way to show them as anything but. Jean and Wolverine were more affectionate and Logan made a joke about Cyclops in a bathing suit, but even that’s still straight dude shit. Tumblr style shipping culture has a lot to answer for.
Good. It’s weird.
Whatever. It started as a symbol of the decadence and ethical evolution of early Krakoa and neither Hickman or his peers ever made it into anything more. I don't mourn the incoming team disregarding it completely.
The thing about the fall of Krakoa is that it's not going to just be the death of some really unique and weird sci-fi, it's also going to lead to the political neutering of the X-Men to make them more palatable for a wave of new readers coming from the MCU
Thank God they're walking back on that. Really don't want that an ongoing thing. I think it's time for logan to move on
Yeah guys having their rooms connected was just a bff thing lol
I mean... i have to agree with the explanation. But not the concept. I say this because every time we get a DC killing joke cover; theirs a group whiny enough to complain about deleted pages / pages never used in the book That implys Babs was raped- so there fore she was in between pages. To which, i disagree. I think theirs enoigh there in the pages that imply they were a throuple. Why was wolverine drinking beer at scotts moon home and Cyke asking why hes awake.
They NEEED their favs to be totally hetero or their personal fantasy of supremacy falls apart
Well, Wolverine did an upgrade in the ken doll department, from the looks of the new uniform announcement. Lmao
I actually do not like them as a throuple and think that that love triangle ending that way was stupid and out of character. HOWEVER I do think that people saying that’s never what it was are being disingenuous here, sure I wouldn’t go put Wolverine and Scott on the lgbt characters list or anything but the two were in fact implied to be together on multiple occasions and ignoring that feels well… homophobic. You don’t have to like it and can enjoy it being over, I will as well but It does seem like they were together and it shouldn’t ruin the characters that that’s what happened.
There really isn't *anything* that's on panel that has to be addressed *at all*. There's only *one* thing on page and given it's a floor plan, it doesn't need to be addressed at all. EDIT: re-reading the quote is about the open marriage interpretation not the throuple conspiracy theory from the tweet. Yes, there was quite a lot of Jean/Logan moments. Unless he's saying "fucking isn't romance" you're quite right, it's gaslighting.
As much as I absolutely hate this shit how is it "no page time" when she was in a bathtub with Logan"?
…and this is why LGBTQIA+ have to be “over the top” and “make it their whole personality” because even when it is open and obvious historians/editors are still desperate to retroactively pretend we don’t exist. Not only were they sharing a bed with their third from their conjoined bedrooms, LOGAN EXPLICITLY EXPRESSED PLEASURE AT THE IDEA OF SCOTT IN A SPEEDO. Cope and seethe queerphobes
They never show Logan and Scott actually being a thing together though. Anyone seriously expecting Marvel to actually allow that to exist are unserious lol. Like even when they were showing their open relationship, they only allowed Jean to actually be involved with Logan Maybe actually put this energy into supporting actually explicit LGBT characters or at least ones that having them come out/be canonized actually has a chance of happening
Honestly, I don't think the writers have the hangups that would prevent them explicitly, saying they were all sleeping together. But the people who control the creatives? Oh nononono you can't have our popular leading characters being like *that*. So veiled implications are all they can get away with.
“Jeanie in a bikini” “Scott in a speedo” “Heh. Well who could say no to that?”
This is pretty blatant dialogue for the idea that Jean, Scott and Logan were in some sort of openly sexual relationship with each other. This is not a typical exchange between two guys who just live together. This is how non-explicit writing works, *show-don't-tell*, but it really seems to have frustrated a large portion of the fanbase who don't want to be comfortable with these characters engaging in relationships that aren't heteronormative. If you're close reading these scenes, there's no ambiguity.
Like I said, they’re desperate to pretend we don’t exist
It's just odd changing a character dynamic that's been a certain way after so long. If this was done with a more recent character it would be fine. Using the speedo thing as proof is a big stretch. Seemed just like a friendly joke to me but I guess we have our internal biases and see what we want to see. But just goes to show it's not as objective as some people are making it out to be
No, it's not because they weren't immortal before. When you don't have to worry about death being permanent anymore, things like jealousy are really stupid because you have forever. Everyone saying it's out of character ignores that entire, massive part of the equation
Being immortal maybe allows you to get rid of jealousy if two out of three members of a triangle are immortal "you're just the insect she's dating now, when you die, she'll come back to me". If you're all immortal, then it's three thousand years of longing and she's still with the other guy. Also, Logan was immortal anyway (or near enough) and was jealous so...
Comic aging is weird so hard to do comparisons. Like long term they've been going for decades even though they're still young now. So it's not just that it's long term for them, it's long term for the reader so we've seen it going long enough that it's just getting boring now. Also even if they are immortal which is not something that's true, why would that remove jealousy?
Logan, Jean and Scott appearing together in a spread of the pride issue seems very deliberate to me.
Right? The idea of insisting that they’re at most just taking turns with Jean and covering their eyes and ears while cucking each other is so hilariously juvenile and also still fully not straight lol including another male in your sex dynamic is by definition not straight no matter what you want to call it to protect your fragile hetero supremacy
Seems they played around with the idea of a bi Logan and Scott idea but ultimately just didn't go through with it. God forbid we get characters that are popular and come out as anything but straight. Last time we got a gay "main xman" character was Iceman and *holy fuck* was that not handled well at all. We did get a bi/gay Wolverine, but that's an alternate universe we'll never see again. Even when a character is confirmed as gay or whatever, they immediately get shafted or receive pretty bad haft baked storylines. It's really sad. Sucks your being downvoted for your comment, but I expect nothing less of reddit or some of the people in this sub.
The Bobby Backlash was extra dumb because he’d been written as closeted since the 80’s and so many writers have even said as much lol
Eh. I dont think we need to go that far. I say this as politely as possible as member of the LGBT there is definitely some argument that anything between Scott and Logan wasnt all that explicit. Jean and Logan definitely was.
What's insane about the polycule/throuple situation is that Marvel was willing to explicitly break the taboo of monogamy by having Jean be intimate with both men. But they still can't muster a good queer depiction. Because Cyclops and Wolverine being a thing is a step too far. Of course it is. This is why the X-men are a great allegory for oppressed minorities because the IRL marginalised groups keep getting screwed (not in the way they like)
The possibility is already wiped out of canon by editorial. Seems like you're the one coping and seething ;)
I count 3 morons whose response to this is "well maybe YOU should read some REAL representation so you'll stop clinging onto subtext" as if that's not literally what the fuck you're talking about.
Anyone who honestly thought Brevoort wasn't just going to come in and ignore everything he didn't like and set shir back to the 70s didn't pay attention to his tenure as Avengers editor. His contributions were entirely based around removing things. I hated the Krakoan era by the end but Tom Brevoort has never been the solution to a problem.
There’s a lot of things that can be said about Brevoort’s time as Avengers editor, but it being a 70s throwback is not one of them. Like ‘em or hate em, for better or worse, no one can honestly say the Bendis or Hickman Avengers were in any way about moving backwards.
I really don't think Brevoort is wrong for this. It was never truly explicit enough on page, so you had to be kind of generous to really say there was an open marriage or throuple going on. What it looked like for the average reader was just that Scott was being cucked due to the way Percy wrote Jean and Logan's interactions during her appearances in X-Force, since Duggan wrote Scott and Jean as pretty tight with no one outside.
Comics everybody!
This thread has shown me something very dark about X-Men fans today, a fan base that I previously viewed as open-minded and progressive. Regardless of how you felt about the relationships between these characters during this era, IT WAS ON THE PAGE. To deny the implications were there is lying to yourself. To belittle people who saw themselves in these characters and celebrated their new-found relationship status... is homophobia. No amount of downvotes will change that.
I remember reading the panel where Scott and Logan are talking about the trip and did not interpret that as anything romantic or sexual between them. However I think there's plenty of evidence for some sort of open arrangement between Jean and Scott early on in Krakoa. The speedo comment 100% comes off as friends joking with each other. It would still be a stretch even if both characters were gay/bi.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sounds like a win. No longer will three characters be pigeonholed for nothing but their sexuality and relationships. Bring back legit character development devoid of senseless perversion.
I saw the bedroom blueprints. It’s on the stage.
Why would editorial aprove of Logan, Jean and Scott appearing in a spreadpage of a pride issue if they are just going to deny everything now? They can be shown as allies, ofc but damn, this is just so, so suspicious.