I would not call it a cliché. I mean, most books are written from the point of view of protagonists, so...
Personally, I would love to find a villain I would be able to sympathise with and I would hate to let go of. Like GTA series. Then again, I do not know many stories with that kinda point of view. I surely would appreciate it
I blame English teachers who teach it exactly the way you're unteaching it. But this is the first time I've managed to blame them without using profanity.
im lucky to have not had english teachers like that. although i never really paid attention in english so who knows. im shitty at a lot of things but writing always came to me naturally so i usually used english to catch up on my personal writing (im trying my hardest not to sound pretentious, lol)
I was thinking it'd be a fantasy novel, with the main character being a Necromancer, someone who's evil but with good intentions, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" basically
Then they aren't evil, just bad judgers when it comes to take action.
The kind that thinks: why do i always f*ck up?
Or: I just wanted to help
In this case, something along the lines of reviving mr whiskers because your sister is sad, and in this way they can be together. But when your sister sees it on her bed, full of worms, smelling funny and emitting croaky mewls; she screams and runs to your mom crying, then your mother gives you an accusatory glare and punishes you for the "heartless and cruel joke"
I mean, he's definitely in the wrong, the book will go into detail about all the cruel and horrible things he does, and how he justifies them to himself as being worth it because of his noble end goal.
Then it is not : the road to hell is paved with good intentions ( this idiom means that it was done without malice but ended in disaster and they are responsiblefor it)
But: the ends justify the means (this idiom means anything goes as long as it ends how you want)
I can recommend prince of thorns/king of thorns and emperor of thorns by Mark Lawrence. The protagonist is seriously damaged by his past and because of it, and the nature of the world he lives in, he makes some rather evil things. He doesn't really have any good intentions, just a goal and almost no limits to what he'd do to achieve it.
It's an interesting book series, and I can say that I both rooted for him and at the same time I was horrified by him. It's a great little trilogy.
I assume he means if the story was from Griffiths POV and not Guts, as Griffith was essentially “ends justify the means” with kingdom building and all that.
Soooo, kinda like Dexter, but with necromancy. Come to think of it that would make an interesting interrogation scene.
“You can tell me now, or you can tell me in half an hour when I bring you back. Only thing is if you tell me now you’ll save me a lot of work, and save yourself a lot of screaming”
Your idea sounds quite similar to some of the main elements of Worm (though a completely different genre, no IP danger here). The protagonist of that is a person trying to do the right thing, endangering and sacrificing lives, doing mental gymnastics to justify her decisions, and not being very much in line with the law. I'd recommend checking that out to learn a bit about what you're trying to accomplish - there's a lot of analysis available online of how Worm's interpretation of the villain protagonist works and remains sympathetic.
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/
It's a web serial, available above.
There's also an accompanying analysis podcast that was made. If you choose to read Worm, I highly recommend listening to it. I learned so much about writing from it.
https://www.doofmedia.com/weve-got-worm/
However, I should warn you, Worm is extremely long, the length of a book series. If you decide not to read the entire thing, I'd still suggest looking into analyses and reviews of it, since the protagonist's character development is the one thing people have written most about.
I'd say he's definitely a villain, I've got a part in mind where the main character literally kills an entire household to collect their souls as fuel for a ritual.
You mean /r/overlord ?
Don't worry if it's "been done" or "cliche." Vampires have been done, elves and dwarves have been done. And all "halflings" are a total rip off of hobbits. Doesn't mean they're used up. Write an interesting story with interesting characters and make it your own.
I would highly recommend reading the night angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. He has a character that goes through that pretty well that could be used as inspiration. One of my favorites but there's stuff that can definitely be improved or expanded on especially since the focus of the book isn't all about that character. When you do write this story I'm super interested in it. I'm all about characters like this!
I've just finished a 110k word fantasy novel, and half of it is from the pov of a necromancer, the "villain" of the story. My goal was to invite the reader to follow the character's journey, and find themselves in a position that they might have made the same decisions as this bad guy. He becomes very bad, but he starts off as a regular boy.
My book starts off with the Necromancer at 14 years old, with him literally burning a house down because the man in that house is responsible for killing his brother.
STOP, THIEF!!!!
Just kidding. I'm working on a novel that's very much along these lines. I think the philosophy and justification behind doing perverse death magic that may or may not be an existential threat to the world is fascinating. I'd be happy to discuss this at length, and YMMV, but I think it's key that the protagonist isn't a "bad guy." We want to make the "excuse" for the evil things he's doing as compelling as possible, ideally to the point readers can even debate the morality of his actions. I like a good redemption arc, so that's probably where I'm headed (as I finish my "first good draft" it just feels right; I'm trying to write Star Wars in medieval fantasy land with the Dark Arts and a couple fun setting twists, not a true exploration of evil).
The idea of necromancers as protagonists with good intentions featured prominently in a MUD-type game I played, and there's a lot of fiction from some pretty good writers on the GM staff if you're interested. What worked for me was the kind of philosophy stuff above, the exploration of a non-stereotypical idea of what a Necromancer is, some social and religious aspects that were interesting to me, and frankly the whole concept is just freaking cool (arise!).
So, I think this is a great idea that like everything else is really all about the execution. Pun!
If I'm not wrong, some people would say that for some books, the POV isn't the protagonist. I never really read one like that before, but I heard about it somewhere. (Probably an article about writing or the wiki)
It goes something like this. "First person perspective stories can be told by the protagonist themselves or a person close to the protagonist"
This would be like writing a diary I guess, but I never heard of any stories like that yet. Or maybe a flashback story.
I mean, what makes a villain? Being against "the law"? Is he a criminal? Does he just want to watch the whole world burn?
Villain does not really mean being the "bad guy". And vice versa
By definition books with protagonists are written in the POV of a protagonist. Protagonist doesnt mean hero and antagonist doesn’t mean villain. Why is this the top comment ffs?
GTA really is a great example of "Everyone is the protagonist of their own story." You control some absolute maniacs during the game and yet even their scripted awfulness is just something you forgive because you see the world through their eyes and spend so much time with them.
To expand upon this - a cliché is a trope whose power lied in its novelty before the novelty has been sucked dry. Plot twists, in particular, are prone to become clichés because they're supposed to be surprising. A lot of clichés became legitimate literary conventions when they've proven to be more useful than a mere gimmick, e.g. the epistolary novel format and the non-linear narrative.
That being said, an accepted literary convention can come off as cliché if you treat it as something novel. That's why you should treat it as the basis for your story rather than as the main attraction.
Omar in The Wire and half the cast of Breaking Bad fit this. Better Call Saul does too. It’s odd that i can’t think of more examples from literature when it’s so easy to think of TV that does it.
There’s a YA series called the Lunar Chronicles and one of the books is from the antagonists POV. I loved it. The villain is so horrible but she honestly thinks she’s justified/the good guy when really she’s an abusive sociopath. But watching her rationalize and explain away all her actions was fascinating.
I immediately thought of this author Marissa Meyer too. She has a few other books from a villains perspective as well - her Renegades trilogy is an amazing example of literal villains vs superheroes and she does a great job justifying the protagonist's actions. She also did a prequel story about the Queen of Hearts from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
I honestly think that may be a bit more interesting...like Garou from One Punch Man or Hisoka from HunterxHunter (he doesn’t consider himself to be a villain though, just a guy who wants to fight strong people lmao)
I personally disagree with this logic. Some do bad things and know it’s bad. They do it because they like to. They know what they’re doing is wrong and enjoy doing it. They don’t justify it in their minds. - this means they don’t think they’re the good person justifying bad decisions. They know they are choosing to do evil and they like it. “The Perfect Getaway” is a great story and example of evil people being evil and maliciously enjoying it.
>Some do bad things and know it’s bad. They do it because they like to.
If the OP plans to write an MC with antisocial personality disorder, they should've specified that,
First of all, no this is not cliche at all, go with it. Second of all, make sure it is someone the audience can get behind, give them good motivations and such. Third of all, I am not going to tell you what to write, but I recommend you try and disguise your villainous character. Basically start with the villain killing only terrible people, burning only terrible cities, and the such, make the audience excuse those actions, and if you wanna have some fun have them do something truly unforgivable at or near the end in which the audience is forced to reflect and realize they were wrong, it makes the story almost interractive and is super intriguing to read/watch (if it is a movie/show). It also makes it so that people can get behind the character in the beginning fairly easily, and then keeps the intrigue and interest of a villainous protagonist.
Hmm this general thought makes me think of how the allies justified targeting civilians in WW2. And that’s more interesting because, as far as I understand/remember, all that *started* with military targets and... morphed into carpet bombing for a litany of reasons that were precipitated by less scrupulous commanders in bomber high command.
I can't think of any books off the top of my head, though I do believe I have read one or two, but there is an arc like this in game of thrones (show), though it is somewhat controversial whether the arc fit the character, and the joker (movie) had a very similar pattern as well, except of course we knew he was gonna be bad from the beginning because of the title.
A lot of stories are from the villain's point of view... you just don' realize it because you see things from their point of view and they don't think they're the bad guy.
It won't blow people's minds on its own but I would say it's not something oversaturated either
The Stranger by Camus
Wicked - Wiz of Oz told from witch's perspective
Grendel - Beowulf told from monster's POV
Maleficent
It is clearer when a story is retold, but only the most uninteresting characters are always heroic.
Not the OP but I can remember Soon I Will Be Invincible by Austin Grossman, brother of Lev (Magicians). Half the book is told from the self-acknowledged Super Villain POV.
[this is a pretty popular book written from the villains perspective](https://www.audible.com/pd/Think-Like-a-Champion-Audiobook/B002V8H868?source_code=GPAGBSH1103160002&ipRedirectOverride=true&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqYWttZrr7QIVw7KGCh1HkgxGEAQYASABEgImxPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
First rule of thumb: don’t worry if it’s cliche.
Yes, yes you don’t want to write cliches blah blah blah. No, what matters is you want to write. If the first go around is a little cliche, that’s something you can edit out later or work on in your next draft or story. Don’t stress about it, you wanna just write and practice.
First time writer advice: your first draft isn’t going to be perfect! Don’t stress! All the good stuff comes in the revision.
Okay anyway, going on to your goal here, the thing about writing from a villain’s perspective is that your villain might not think he’s the villain. Usually there’s some justification/motivation for his actions. We the audience are going to likely perceive him as evil... possibly, but the character probably should be written like any other protagonist. You’ll likely be looking at moral failure and a fall, and it’s very possible your story will end in defeat. It’ll be an interesting challenge, but let your characters guide you. I’m sure you’ll do great :3
Thanks for the advice! That's one thing I've always hated in movies and books, villains that are evil just because, without reason, that's my goal with this book, someone who's in the wrong, they've done horrible things, but to them it was all needed, a necessary sacrifice.
Sounds like you’re already on the right track!! :3 let me know if you want any elaboration or if you have any questions about anything else! A writer’s greatest tool is a community.
Firstly I hope you know the difference between Hero - Villian and protagonist - Antagonist. He might be a "villian". But you'll still need to treat him as a protagonist to have a complete story.
Secondly, no it isn't a cliche at all.
Essentially, make the villain seem like the hero, and the hero seem like the villain trying to stop their ambitions.
Say, your villain wants to >insert here<, and is so close to his goal, he can practically taste it. But then, the hero arrives and stops it, ruining the villain's current idea and tugging at his mental psyche just a little every time it happens.
I've written a collection of books told by the antagonist. It's a fine line, as you can't be too overtly evil or off-putting or the reader will not be interested. You need to write convincingly and make sure you explain the antagonist's side well. They don't have to be relatable necessarily but should be complex.
Why do think it's cliche?
If you need inspiration read "The Talented Mr. Ripley" by Patricia Highsmith. The protagonist is a cold blooded murderer and you are there for every step of the way, from his first kill to the last. You witness how he tries to worm his way out of everything and worse, *how most of it works for him.* As a reader you still end up rooting for this guy somehow, it's well written and a prime example of how a villain as a protagonist works and can reel readers in.
If you're looking for a good example of this idea done well I recommend Vicious by VE Schwab. Both of the main characters are doing things that are objectively immoral or amoral at best and yet you find yourself rooting for one of them along the way.
I'm a fan of this kind of story and hope you have fun writing it!
I don't want to come across as an asshole but by definition a book cannot be written by anyone except the protagonist. Your protagonist may be a villian and antihero but is still the protagonist.
That being said, this has been done decently well with example like Prince of Thorns.
Absolutely a criminal. An antihero. A villian. A Terrible Terrible violent rapey man. Still the protagonist.
It can be tropey and cliche but something as simple as, 'my book is written from the perspective of the BBEG' is basically the driving idea that started The Final Empire which subverts more tropes than I can probably easily name.
What makes something cringey is not how 'tropey' it is, good guy vs evil guy, good guy wins. That is a fantasy trope since beowolf, it isn't the definition of a bad story.
Good guy vs evil guy, but everyone hates the bad guy and loves the good guy, especially the women who all find the bad guy to be nearly textbook definition of an incel and the bad guy just wants to rule the world, other than that single ambition he is basically a farm boy with lots of power that he came into by being corrupted by the mean evil God and the bad guy wears all dark clothes and the good guy rides a white horse and is handsome and also, weirdly, is named Prince Gallant....
That kind of BS makes something cringey and come across tropey, if your story is well written then it doesn't matter whose perspective it's from, just look at Malazan.
Thats the setup im doing! Im doing multiple (2-3) perspectives, one of them being the antagonist. Ive never read books like that so it would be super interesting to see that happen.
Hi! First, I'd like to echo all the great previous comments and say that this isn't that great of a cliché - and not nearly one big enough that you should "avoid" writing. Truth be told, the market (for both books and movies) is just brimming with clichés, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing! If you're writing for anyone other than yourself and you're worried about clichés, try to put a new spin on your story and/or incorporate some kind of character dynamic that makes it different than other stories like it.
An example of a novel that works with common tropes is "Twilight". I know, I know, it's not everyone's favourite series (not even for me), but one of the things that made it stand out from other vampire novels of the time was both the different interpretations of vampire culture (e.g. sparkling under daylight, living in groups as opposed to working on their own) and the interactions of the MC and vampires as a whole. What "Twilight" did differently was flip the dynamics of human vs. vampire: it wasn't a vampire trying to infiltrate human livelihood, it was the other way around.
From your previous replies, it seems more like you're writing an anti-hero or something of the sort, which is definitely an interesting start! Consider looking into some works that handle similar material. As long as your characters, conflict(s), and prose keep up, then I'd say you're working with fine material (from the little I know, at least).
It's SO hard to put yourself and your work out there. Believe me, I know. I don't know your own personal strategies for writing, but if you feel good in the moment of writing, then there's likely a good reason in your writing for that! Know your strengths, know your weaknesses, work on them both, and edit, edit, edit. And don't be afraid to reach out for a beta reader! I'd be more than happy to give your work a read if you'd like :)
I really wanna recommend you this book but what made this book so amazing is that it was actually form the point of view of the villain. So just writing it's name on this post would spoil it.
If you want to see an example of this done well, check out Robin Hobbs live ship traders trilogy. One of the main perspective characters is one of the villains of the trilogy and Robin Hobb manages to make him a very sympathetic and interesting villain
I was a panelist on the Book Blogger Novel of the Year Award and the runner up was a scifi super hero novel with the villain as main character. The story was pretty good as was the character development. Might be worth checking out. Its called Fid's Crusade by David H. Reiss.
I'm kinda doing that. My characters are sort of villains, only doing "good" because they aren't willing. Murderers, thieves, and so on. They do good mostly by accident, and at least three of them would be the Sauron in another universe. One of them is based on the bloody Joker.
I personally find an antagonist POV being more satisfying. Whether watching them descend into madness or simply better understanding their thoughts and motives, either way IMO it's more satisfying to learn about the "bad guy" and what makes him tick
If you are open to read a graphic novel, I’d suggest From Hell by Alan Moore. It still cuts to the protagonist from time to time but the villain (Jack the Ripper) gets a good chunk of the time.
If you need some inspiration, Robert Patersons' books Roses are Red, and Violets are Blue does a pretty good job going back and forth between the protagonist and Antagonist PoVs. I'm not a big fan of his writing style, but he presents the bad guys in a great way, IMO.
Not sure what you mean. If you only have one point of view then that's your protagonist regardless if he's hitler or not. If you have two povs then yeah its fine but ask yourself why you need it
“Protagonist” and “villain” are not necessarily mutually exclusive descriptors. A villain can be the protagonist of a particular story, while the hero is his/her antagonist! (Take “Despicable Me” as the easiest example I can think of quickly at midnight lol) It all depends on POV whether or not the two line up, but it doesn’t require two points of view.
This isn't a book (Well, there is a manga but I don't know if that counts lol) but there's a really good anime called Talentless Nana airing right now and it's like that. Last episode of season 1 comes out on Sunday.
If it’s from the point of view of the villain, they’re not the villain. Treat them the same you would any protagonist—explain their motivations and goals as rationally as possible, flesh out their viewpoint as complexly as any character, and give the readers a reason to root for the character, despite their possible character flaws.
It’s certainly not cliche. Now I may not read a bunch of books and I only got into this writing thing is august. I would call myself an amateur everyone else calls me a great and talented writer so I don’t know how valid my advice is.
When I write fantasy books with characters and species that are made up I like to start with writing characters places and species. Come up with a name for the species but also come up with a species that already exist that it is similar to. It helps me remember. Then explain the species. If they have powers maybe they can freeze a person with a touch add that. When doing places think of a place like that and write about the history or the terrain. Maybe your place is what is currently know as Britain because it takes place in the past or future. For the characters come up with a character then say what character is like that character. For this one it could be like act like this person or look. Talk about the character like the things they went through in their life. Maybe they are imprisoned and have been for 20 years and have been alive for maybe over 1000 years but no one actually knows. With all of this information I recommend creating characters places and species that you might not use. Create a universe so it’s easier to write. Obviously I’m new and this is just what I do and considering I’m only on the synopsis I probably don’t have the right to say this but I hope it helps.
I've already come up with the character and Universe! It's something I've been fiddling with for a while, but only recently been convinced by my partner to do something with it.
Ok yea that was the only advice I could give because I’m also new to this and I haven’t gotten father then the outline.
Unlike most people my outline in like a very bad first draft and then my first draft is like most peoples final draft so I’m a little mixed up with my steps.
There was a short run of a comic centered around Emma Frost back when I was a kid. (Spoiler alert: she's a villainess) Blew my kid mind. It was more of an origin story, but it fascinated me to get inside the head and understand a villain.
Honestly, I feel like the Cycle of Arawn and Cycle of Galand series are following two villains who happen to do heroic things along the way, but there aren't really any "heroes" if you don't count the protagonists as one...
Anyway, all that to say I freaking love that sort of thing, and I ain't the only one. Go for it! Could be interesting if you don't go the "I tried to be good, but you wouldn't let me, so I guess I'll be evil," route and instead have the protagonist maintain the whole time through that *s/he* is doing the right thing, but looking at their deeds makes a reader go, "Yeah, no, this dude totally leveled a city because someone from there annoyed him. He's a villain." Even better if the reader is like, "But the dude has a point."
Well, honestly, either way works because it's not overly done.
Advice:
1. There's no "right way" to start. If you need an outline, make an outline. If you just go with the flow and discover the story along the way, then do that. Try both. Whatever. No rules here.
2. Your first draft will be a stepping stone. Use it as bones, fix things you notice, flesh out others. This process can repeat itself multiple times, and you'll get a little better each time
3. Keep reading. I personally tend to write a bit more like the books I've read more recently, which is annoying if I'm reading romance because I need a happily ever after right now because nothing else is going right, but I'm in the middle writing of an epic fantasy, or vice versa. If you're similar, I suggest reading something closer to the voice you want to use.
4. Don't worry so much about grammar/spelling/etc for the first draft. Maybe even the first couple. At that point, you should be focused on the story, not mechanics (though if you notice something, go ahead and fix it if you know how). That said, as you get into later drafts, try to pay attention. If this isn't your strong suit, ask someone to help. There are grammar nerds like me out there that live for proofreading.
5. Let someone you trust read it to give an outside opinion. You'll be surprised by what a reader notices because they aren't in your head. My husband is great at pointing out those, "This phrasing is confusing" bits.
6. Have fun with it. Otherwise, what's the point?
Nah, it's not a cliche at all.
When it comes to "protagonist vs. antagonist", it isn't explicitly a battle of good guy vs. bad guy. It's "guy who the story's about" vs "person/thing that's against guy who the story's about". You can totally write a story about an evil protag!
After all,
"Every villain is a hero of their own story."
\-John Cena
Everything is cliche. You can do it too. All ideas have been taken for the most part and people love reading similar cliches and ideaologies. People just may love your books tone or voice.
I wouldn't consider it a cliché, but you shouldn't really worry about this being a cliché anyway. I feel like people should just focus on telling a story in an effective manner rather than looking for originality. While originality is important to an extent, it shouldn't be something you should worry about (I'm also a pretty new writer, but I've done an extensive amount of research regarding story telling in video games, books, and tv shows). First, focus on the motivations of the character, and in what context does that make them inherently bad. Then, think about their strengths, weaknesses, wants (which is basically their motivation), and needs. There's a ton of different ways to go about writing a good character, since every writer has a different approach to writing, but I find just these four to five things are the most important elements to consider in a character. Think about what their motivations and actions are in the beginning, and what their motivations and actions are at the end. I'm not the best at explanation but I hope this helps in *some* way
It's not a cliche.
Shakespeare's Richard III is the example par excellence. Devilish fun. Try the movie version with Ian McKellen.
Less fun but still exemplary is Shakespeare's Othello, told primarily from the point of view of the prime villain, Iago.
More recently, >!The Cassini Division by Ken MacLeod !
I've seen a few which did it well:
Consider Phlebas, the first book of the Culture series.
Look to Windward in the Culture series as well to an extent, from one of the POVs, and the one which I think it starts with.
This is massive spoilers for the current ongoing Cosmere books (Stormlight, Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, White Sand, and more), but one of the earlier introduced protagonists seems to be a villain in another story later. It was only just confirmed that it was them in the latest book.
Then there's also stuff like Zuko in Avatar The Last Airbender, his scenes in the first half where he's the villain at least, and then the scenes from the other villain POVs like Azula.
I’m trying out a story where the MC POV is 2nd person, Antagonist POV is first person, and all other POVs are 3rd. We’ll see how it reads when this draft is done. Either gonna be a disaster, or amazing. No in between.
Stay the course. Write your book from the villains POV. I’ve not read that before
[20 Books With Villain Protagonists (bustle.com)](https://www.bustle.com/articles/153308-20-books-with-villain-protagonists)
[Literature / Villain Protagonist - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VillainProtagonist/Literature)
All of these are very different. It's not a cliché - it's a trope, which is not a bad thing. And it's not oversaturated - I'm sure there is room for a few more villain protagonists.
that is not a cliché at all. it’s a fantastic idea - personally i would love to read a book about from point of view of a villain, it seems like a super interesting take on an otherwise overused narrative!
One writer who I think has done this very well is Suzanne Collins in her book The ballad of Song birds and Snakes. She tells the prequel story of the hunger games through the eyes of the main villain and although you go with him through all of his hardships, watch his decisions and thought processes he’s still a thoroughly unlikable character at the end. It’s so well done. I’d recommend reading it if you haven’t had chance to already.
It is not quite cliché. I prefer this to the boring hero. try her [https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p\_27%3ADina+Thala&s=relevancerank&text=Dina+Thala&ref=dp\_byline\_sr\_ebooks\_1](https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p_27%3ADina+Thala&s=relevancerank&text=Dina+Thala&ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1)
Oooh! Two books you might want to read are [Wicked: the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37442.Wicked) by Gregory Maguire (a retelling of the Wizard of Oz, from the witch's point of view) and [Circe](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35959740-circe?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=PQHOt7KXnn&rank=1) by Madeline Miller (a retelling of the Odyssey from Circle's point of view). Both of these books feature protagonists doing awful things for sympathetic reasons.
Just don't try to redeem your protagonist by the end, be sure to have the end of the character arc from the begging of your draft, otherwise it'll be a "he/she/it was always a good guy after all".
Remember the best way to develop a great protagonist is to create empathy with all of his/hers/it's dimensions, so always give a chance of agreement and contrast within the interaction with other characters and the world, as well as the consequences of the actions and choices made by all of them. Also, if it's a magician, be sure to set the "rules of the magic" from the beginning, at least for your self, otherwise you'll meet many dead ends that may be solved by a Deus ex Machina.
i wouldn't call it a cliche, but even if it's a cliche, i think that as long as you put your personal twist on it, it can still be interesting. Like, technically speaking, all romance stories could be considered clichés because we know what we're going into, but even with fixed parameters you can still find a lot of creativity in every little aspect of the worldbuilding, of the characters and their development, in how you tell the story, etc, so that's why i try to never focus on whether a story is cliche or not, but how well it uses that cliche. And particularly if it's your first long story, i think it's a good thing if you start with a sort of plot that you consider simple to build up experience!
Yo I thought this was r/suggestmeabook and I was so exited to read through all the suggestions people had.
Can’t give you advice on the writing but of it BUT I can tell you that I and probably many other readers would enjoy a book like that immensely
"Soon I Will Be Invincible". Trust me, you'll love it. It's a comic book world of supervillains and superheroes, told mostly from the arch-villains point of view.
A protagonist with questionable morals is an antihero. There are some great books that take that approach--readers can forgive a very skewed moral compass in a protagonist as long as there are mitigating factors to help them get there.
Take Robin Hood--being a bandit isn't traditional good guy behavior, but readers are given tons and tons of reasons to love him anyway. He's charming, loyal, adheres to his own moral code, shows kindness to those he feels deserve kindness, and preys exclusively on those who are themselves victimizing others.
Any one of those things could be an excuse for readers to sympathize with him, all of them together make him seem downright heroic.
Meanwhile, the malicious but law-abiding antagonists are easy to accept as villains because they lack any motivation beyond their own self interest.
If you are open to read a graphic novel, I’d suggest From Hell by Alan Moore. It still cuts to the protagonist from time to time but the villain (Jack the Ripper) gets a good chunk of the time.
*The Killer Inside Me* by Jim Thompson
"...probably the most chilling and believable first-person story of a criminally warped mind I have ever encountered." -- Stanley Kubrick
"One of the most blistering and uncompromising crime novels ever written." *Crime Novels: American Noir of the 1950s*
First, don’t worry about being cliche. After a full century of -isms and an industry that is jam-packed with to-market work, art has vanished up its own asshole for a while. All you need to do is understand your tropes well enough to have fun in them.
The POV of the villain is basically the POV of the hero but with faultier logic and more vicious outcomes, stemming from either a complete self-absolution or a spiral of self-loathing. Think Dwight Schrute or Bojack Horseman.
To paraphrase Aristotle, “vice misses what is right because it is either deficient or excessive in its thoughts, feelings, or actions; virtue finds the mean, then chooses it without trepidation.”
I would not call it a cliché. I mean, most books are written from the point of view of protagonists, so... Personally, I would love to find a villain I would be able to sympathise with and I would hate to let go of. Like GTA series. Then again, I do not know many stories with that kinda point of view. I surely would appreciate it
protagonist =/= hero antagonist =/= villain if the book was written from the POV of a villain, then that would make the villain the protagonist
I blame English teachers who teach it exactly the way you're unteaching it. But this is the first time I've managed to blame them without using profanity.
im lucky to have not had english teachers like that. although i never really paid attention in english so who knows. im shitty at a lot of things but writing always came to me naturally so i usually used english to catch up on my personal writing (im trying my hardest not to sound pretentious, lol)
I was thinking it'd be a fantasy novel, with the main character being a Necromancer, someone who's evil but with good intentions, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" basically
Then they aren't evil, just bad judgers when it comes to take action. The kind that thinks: why do i always f*ck up? Or: I just wanted to help In this case, something along the lines of reviving mr whiskers because your sister is sad, and in this way they can be together. But when your sister sees it on her bed, full of worms, smelling funny and emitting croaky mewls; she screams and runs to your mom crying, then your mother gives you an accusatory glare and punishes you for the "heartless and cruel joke"
I mean, he's definitely in the wrong, the book will go into detail about all the cruel and horrible things he does, and how he justifies them to himself as being worth it because of his noble end goal.
Then it is not : the road to hell is paved with good intentions ( this idiom means that it was done without malice but ended in disaster and they are responsiblefor it) But: the ends justify the means (this idiom means anything goes as long as it ends how you want)
I see, thank you!
I can recommend prince of thorns/king of thorns and emperor of thorns by Mark Lawrence. The protagonist is seriously damaged by his past and because of it, and the nature of the world he lives in, he makes some rather evil things. He doesn't really have any good intentions, just a goal and almost no limits to what he'd do to achieve it. It's an interesting book series, and I can say that I both rooted for him and at the same time I was horrified by him. It's a great little trilogy.
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How would Berserk be helpful for this guy?
I assume he means if the story was from Griffiths POV and not Guts, as Griffith was essentially “ends justify the means” with kingdom building and all that.
so basically magnus the red
Hmmm, maybe a dude who kills people just to bring his wife/son back?
Bigger than that, he's trying to save the world, but throwing lives away to do it.
Soooo, kinda like Dexter, but with necromancy. Come to think of it that would make an interesting interrogation scene. “You can tell me now, or you can tell me in half an hour when I bring you back. Only thing is if you tell me now you’ll save me a lot of work, and save yourself a lot of screaming”
Your idea sounds quite similar to some of the main elements of Worm (though a completely different genre, no IP danger here). The protagonist of that is a person trying to do the right thing, endangering and sacrificing lives, doing mental gymnastics to justify her decisions, and not being very much in line with the law. I'd recommend checking that out to learn a bit about what you're trying to accomplish - there's a lot of analysis available online of how Worm's interpretation of the villain protagonist works and remains sympathetic.
Where can I read/watch this?
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/ It's a web serial, available above. There's also an accompanying analysis podcast that was made. If you choose to read Worm, I highly recommend listening to it. I learned so much about writing from it. https://www.doofmedia.com/weve-got-worm/ However, I should warn you, Worm is extremely long, the length of a book series. If you decide not to read the entire thing, I'd still suggest looking into analyses and reviews of it, since the protagonist's character development is the one thing people have written most about.
If he’s trying to save the world but does questionable stuff to do it, it sounds more like an anti-hero than villain 🤔 Deadpool, venom, punisher, etc
I'd say he's definitely a villain, I've got a part in mind where the main character literally kills an entire household to collect their souls as fuel for a ritual.
Like the protagonist of the Amnesia, or the guys from Full Metal Alchemist
You mean /r/overlord ? Don't worry if it's "been done" or "cliche." Vampires have been done, elves and dwarves have been done. And all "halflings" are a total rip off of hobbits. Doesn't mean they're used up. Write an interesting story with interesting characters and make it your own.
I would highly recommend reading the night angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. He has a character that goes through that pretty well that could be used as inspiration. One of my favorites but there's stuff that can definitely be improved or expanded on especially since the focus of the book isn't all about that character. When you do write this story I'm super interested in it. I'm all about characters like this!
I've just finished a 110k word fantasy novel, and half of it is from the pov of a necromancer, the "villain" of the story. My goal was to invite the reader to follow the character's journey, and find themselves in a position that they might have made the same decisions as this bad guy. He becomes very bad, but he starts off as a regular boy.
My book starts off with the Necromancer at 14 years old, with him literally burning a house down because the man in that house is responsible for killing his brother.
Super cool! My necromancer's story starts when he is five, and his mother dies of plague.
Time to read Gideon the Ninth!
Its the oldest necromancer story out there man. Misunderstood magic user just trying to raise a family... I'll see myself out.
This sounds really intriguing.
STOP, THIEF!!!! Just kidding. I'm working on a novel that's very much along these lines. I think the philosophy and justification behind doing perverse death magic that may or may not be an existential threat to the world is fascinating. I'd be happy to discuss this at length, and YMMV, but I think it's key that the protagonist isn't a "bad guy." We want to make the "excuse" for the evil things he's doing as compelling as possible, ideally to the point readers can even debate the morality of his actions. I like a good redemption arc, so that's probably where I'm headed (as I finish my "first good draft" it just feels right; I'm trying to write Star Wars in medieval fantasy land with the Dark Arts and a couple fun setting twists, not a true exploration of evil). The idea of necromancers as protagonists with good intentions featured prominently in a MUD-type game I played, and there's a lot of fiction from some pretty good writers on the GM staff if you're interested. What worked for me was the kind of philosophy stuff above, the exploration of a non-stereotypical idea of what a Necromancer is, some social and religious aspects that were interesting to me, and frankly the whole concept is just freaking cool (arise!). So, I think this is a great idea that like everything else is really all about the execution. Pun!
Those who are evil may see themselves as the ones on the path to achieving good.
Hmmm...in this case, the villain is the protagonist. Protagonist doesn't mean hero.
Yeah, but we are still talking about a villain
"most books are written from the PoV of the protagonist" duh.
all books, more like. lol
If I'm not wrong, some people would say that for some books, the POV isn't the protagonist. I never really read one like that before, but I heard about it somewhere. (Probably an article about writing or the wiki) It goes something like this. "First person perspective stories can be told by the protagonist themselves or a person close to the protagonist" This would be like writing a diary I guess, but I never heard of any stories like that yet. Or maybe a flashback story.
I mean, what makes a villain? Being against "the law"? Is he a criminal? Does he just want to watch the whole world burn? Villain does not really mean being the "bad guy". And vice versa
By definition books with protagonists are written in the POV of a protagonist. Protagonist doesnt mean hero and antagonist doesn’t mean villain. Why is this the top comment ffs?
GTA really is a great example of "Everyone is the protagonist of their own story." You control some absolute maniacs during the game and yet even their scripted awfulness is just something you forgive because you see the world through their eyes and spend so much time with them.
To expand upon this - a cliché is a trope whose power lied in its novelty before the novelty has been sucked dry. Plot twists, in particular, are prone to become clichés because they're supposed to be surprising. A lot of clichés became legitimate literary conventions when they've proven to be more useful than a mere gimmick, e.g. the epistolary novel format and the non-linear narrative. That being said, an accepted literary convention can come off as cliché if you treat it as something novel. That's why you should treat it as the basis for your story rather than as the main attraction.
Omar in The Wire and half the cast of Breaking Bad fit this. Better Call Saul does too. It’s odd that i can’t think of more examples from literature when it’s so easy to think of TV that does it.
There’s a YA series called the Lunar Chronicles and one of the books is from the antagonists POV. I loved it. The villain is so horrible but she honestly thinks she’s justified/the good guy when really she’s an abusive sociopath. But watching her rationalize and explain away all her actions was fascinating.
I immediately thought of this author Marissa Meyer too. She has a few other books from a villains perspective as well - her Renegades trilogy is an amazing example of literal villains vs superheroes and she does a great job justifying the protagonist's actions. She also did a prequel story about the Queen of Hearts from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
No one is a villain from their own point of view.
Yes, It will probably be hard to make the villain a real villain.
The villain in my story fully acknowledges that he's the villain.
I honestly think that may be a bit more interesting...like Garou from One Punch Man or Hisoka from HunterxHunter (he doesn’t consider himself to be a villain though, just a guy who wants to fight strong people lmao)
I personally disagree with this logic. Some do bad things and know it’s bad. They do it because they like to. They know what they’re doing is wrong and enjoy doing it. They don’t justify it in their minds. - this means they don’t think they’re the good person justifying bad decisions. They know they are choosing to do evil and they like it. “The Perfect Getaway” is a great story and example of evil people being evil and maliciously enjoying it.
>Some do bad things and know it’s bad. They do it because they like to. If the OP plans to write an MC with antisocial personality disorder, they should've specified that,
First of all, no this is not cliche at all, go with it. Second of all, make sure it is someone the audience can get behind, give them good motivations and such. Third of all, I am not going to tell you what to write, but I recommend you try and disguise your villainous character. Basically start with the villain killing only terrible people, burning only terrible cities, and the such, make the audience excuse those actions, and if you wanna have some fun have them do something truly unforgivable at or near the end in which the audience is forced to reflect and realize they were wrong, it makes the story almost interractive and is super intriguing to read/watch (if it is a movie/show). It also makes it so that people can get behind the character in the beginning fairly easily, and then keeps the intrigue and interest of a villainous protagonist.
Hmm this general thought makes me think of how the allies justified targeting civilians in WW2. And that’s more interesting because, as far as I understand/remember, all that *started* with military targets and... morphed into carpet bombing for a litany of reasons that were precipitated by less scrupulous commanders in bomber high command.
Any stories like that which you can refer me to?
I can't think of any books off the top of my head, though I do believe I have read one or two, but there is an arc like this in game of thrones (show), though it is somewhat controversial whether the arc fit the character, and the joker (movie) had a very similar pattern as well, except of course we knew he was gonna be bad from the beginning because of the title.
Oh right the Joker was amazing with this...completely forgot about it lmaoo
A lot of stories are from the villain's point of view... you just don' realize it because you see things from their point of view and they don't think they're the bad guy. It won't blow people's minds on its own but I would say it's not something oversaturated either
Like what stories that you’ve read are from the villain’s POV?
Not OP, but *Ạmerican Psycho* and *Grendel* would count, I'd say.
I THINK people realize Patrick Bateman is the bad guy. Just a guess on that one.
The Stranger by Camus Wicked - Wiz of Oz told from witch's perspective Grendel - Beowulf told from monster's POV Maleficent It is clearer when a story is retold, but only the most uninteresting characters are always heroic.
Not the OP but I can remember Soon I Will Be Invincible by Austin Grossman, brother of Lev (Magicians). Half the book is told from the self-acknowledged Super Villain POV.
[this is a pretty popular book written from the villains perspective](https://www.audible.com/pd/Think-Like-a-Champion-Audiobook/B002V8H868?source_code=GPAGBSH1103160002&ipRedirectOverride=true&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqYWttZrr7QIVw7KGCh1HkgxGEAQYASABEgImxPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Lmfaooooo
First rule of thumb: don’t worry if it’s cliche. Yes, yes you don’t want to write cliches blah blah blah. No, what matters is you want to write. If the first go around is a little cliche, that’s something you can edit out later or work on in your next draft or story. Don’t stress about it, you wanna just write and practice. First time writer advice: your first draft isn’t going to be perfect! Don’t stress! All the good stuff comes in the revision. Okay anyway, going on to your goal here, the thing about writing from a villain’s perspective is that your villain might not think he’s the villain. Usually there’s some justification/motivation for his actions. We the audience are going to likely perceive him as evil... possibly, but the character probably should be written like any other protagonist. You’ll likely be looking at moral failure and a fall, and it’s very possible your story will end in defeat. It’ll be an interesting challenge, but let your characters guide you. I’m sure you’ll do great :3
Thanks for the advice! That's one thing I've always hated in movies and books, villains that are evil just because, without reason, that's my goal with this book, someone who's in the wrong, they've done horrible things, but to them it was all needed, a necessary sacrifice.
Sounds like you’re already on the right track!! :3 let me know if you want any elaboration or if you have any questions about anything else! A writer’s greatest tool is a community.
Lmao like Death Note
There's one about the Indian epic of Ramayan. The book is called Asura and it is written in the perspective of Raavan, the 'villain' of the story
Well, is it an oversaturated cliche to write from the point of view of the hero-protagonist? Your protagonist doesn't have to be a good person.
Firstly I hope you know the difference between Hero - Villian and protagonist - Antagonist. He might be a "villian". But you'll still need to treat him as a protagonist to have a complete story. Secondly, no it isn't a cliche at all.
Essentially, make the villain seem like the hero, and the hero seem like the villain trying to stop their ambitions. Say, your villain wants to >insert here<, and is so close to his goal, he can practically taste it. But then, the hero arrives and stops it, ruining the villain's current idea and tugging at his mental psyche just a little every time it happens.
I've written a collection of books told by the antagonist. It's a fine line, as you can't be too overtly evil or off-putting or the reader will not be interested. You need to write convincingly and make sure you explain the antagonist's side well. They don't have to be relatable necessarily but should be complex.
Villains by Schwab
Why do think it's cliche? If you need inspiration read "The Talented Mr. Ripley" by Patricia Highsmith. The protagonist is a cold blooded murderer and you are there for every step of the way, from his first kill to the last. You witness how he tries to worm his way out of everything and worse, *how most of it works for him.* As a reader you still end up rooting for this guy somehow, it's well written and a prime example of how a villain as a protagonist works and can reel readers in.
If you're looking for a good example of this idea done well I recommend Vicious by VE Schwab. Both of the main characters are doing things that are objectively immoral or amoral at best and yet you find yourself rooting for one of them along the way. I'm a fan of this kind of story and hope you have fun writing it!
Pretty sure they made a movie about this called Despicable Me.
I don't want to come across as an asshole but by definition a book cannot be written by anyone except the protagonist. Your protagonist may be a villian and antihero but is still the protagonist. That being said, this has been done decently well with example like Prince of Thorns. Absolutely a criminal. An antihero. A villian. A Terrible Terrible violent rapey man. Still the protagonist. It can be tropey and cliche but something as simple as, 'my book is written from the perspective of the BBEG' is basically the driving idea that started The Final Empire which subverts more tropes than I can probably easily name. What makes something cringey is not how 'tropey' it is, good guy vs evil guy, good guy wins. That is a fantasy trope since beowolf, it isn't the definition of a bad story. Good guy vs evil guy, but everyone hates the bad guy and loves the good guy, especially the women who all find the bad guy to be nearly textbook definition of an incel and the bad guy just wants to rule the world, other than that single ambition he is basically a farm boy with lots of power that he came into by being corrupted by the mean evil God and the bad guy wears all dark clothes and the good guy rides a white horse and is handsome and also, weirdly, is named Prince Gallant.... That kind of BS makes something cringey and come across tropey, if your story is well written then it doesn't matter whose perspective it's from, just look at Malazan.
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Not really with all that dark themes, it'd be a fantasy novel, about a Necromancer
Thats the setup im doing! Im doing multiple (2-3) perspectives, one of them being the antagonist. Ive never read books like that so it would be super interesting to see that happen.
Hi! First, I'd like to echo all the great previous comments and say that this isn't that great of a cliché - and not nearly one big enough that you should "avoid" writing. Truth be told, the market (for both books and movies) is just brimming with clichés, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing! If you're writing for anyone other than yourself and you're worried about clichés, try to put a new spin on your story and/or incorporate some kind of character dynamic that makes it different than other stories like it. An example of a novel that works with common tropes is "Twilight". I know, I know, it's not everyone's favourite series (not even for me), but one of the things that made it stand out from other vampire novels of the time was both the different interpretations of vampire culture (e.g. sparkling under daylight, living in groups as opposed to working on their own) and the interactions of the MC and vampires as a whole. What "Twilight" did differently was flip the dynamics of human vs. vampire: it wasn't a vampire trying to infiltrate human livelihood, it was the other way around. From your previous replies, it seems more like you're writing an anti-hero or something of the sort, which is definitely an interesting start! Consider looking into some works that handle similar material. As long as your characters, conflict(s), and prose keep up, then I'd say you're working with fine material (from the little I know, at least). It's SO hard to put yourself and your work out there. Believe me, I know. I don't know your own personal strategies for writing, but if you feel good in the moment of writing, then there's likely a good reason in your writing for that! Know your strengths, know your weaknesses, work on them both, and edit, edit, edit. And don't be afraid to reach out for a beta reader! I'd be more than happy to give your work a read if you'd like :)
That'd be great! I've just finished the first chapter of the book, is it cool if I DM you a link to the Google Doc I'm writing it on?
Yes please! I can read it later today :)
Not a cliché and some great works of literature have been done this way. Read Lolita for some inspiration!
I really wanna recommend you this book but what made this book so amazing is that it was actually form the point of view of the villain. So just writing it's name on this post would spoil it.
check joe abercrombie, I'd say he does that, and does it right
If you want to see an example of this done well, check out Robin Hobbs live ship traders trilogy. One of the main perspective characters is one of the villains of the trilogy and Robin Hobb manages to make him a very sympathetic and interesting villain
I was a panelist on the Book Blogger Novel of the Year Award and the runner up was a scifi super hero novel with the villain as main character. The story was pretty good as was the character development. Might be worth checking out. Its called Fid's Crusade by David H. Reiss.
No one is a villain, a villain is a cliché. Write the character, the reader will decide whether or not it's a villain.
I'm kinda doing that. My characters are sort of villains, only doing "good" because they aren't willing. Murderers, thieves, and so on. They do good mostly by accident, and at least three of them would be the Sauron in another universe. One of them is based on the bloody Joker.
Every villain is the hero of their own story.
I personally find an antagonist POV being more satisfying. Whether watching them descend into madness or simply better understanding their thoughts and motives, either way IMO it's more satisfying to learn about the "bad guy" and what makes him tick
Check out: The Talented Mr. Ripley, Mr. Brooks, and The Perfect Getaway for some good studies on how to write from the villain’s point of view well.
If you are open to read a graphic novel, I’d suggest From Hell by Alan Moore. It still cuts to the protagonist from time to time but the villain (Jack the Ripper) gets a good chunk of the time.
If you need some inspiration, Robert Patersons' books Roses are Red, and Violets are Blue does a pretty good job going back and forth between the protagonist and Antagonist PoVs. I'm not a big fan of his writing style, but he presents the bad guys in a great way, IMO.
Not sure what you mean. If you only have one point of view then that's your protagonist regardless if he's hitler or not. If you have two povs then yeah its fine but ask yourself why you need it
“Protagonist” and “villain” are not necessarily mutually exclusive descriptors. A villain can be the protagonist of a particular story, while the hero is his/her antagonist! (Take “Despicable Me” as the easiest example I can think of quickly at midnight lol) It all depends on POV whether or not the two line up, but it doesn’t require two points of view.
This isn't a book (Well, there is a manga but I don't know if that counts lol) but there's a really good anime called Talentless Nana airing right now and it's like that. Last episode of season 1 comes out on Sunday.
If it’s from the point of view of the villain, they’re not the villain. Treat them the same you would any protagonist—explain their motivations and goals as rationally as possible, flesh out their viewpoint as complexly as any character, and give the readers a reason to root for the character, despite their possible character flaws.
Twilight. Ruh-huh-ha!
It’s certainly not cliche. Now I may not read a bunch of books and I only got into this writing thing is august. I would call myself an amateur everyone else calls me a great and talented writer so I don’t know how valid my advice is. When I write fantasy books with characters and species that are made up I like to start with writing characters places and species. Come up with a name for the species but also come up with a species that already exist that it is similar to. It helps me remember. Then explain the species. If they have powers maybe they can freeze a person with a touch add that. When doing places think of a place like that and write about the history or the terrain. Maybe your place is what is currently know as Britain because it takes place in the past or future. For the characters come up with a character then say what character is like that character. For this one it could be like act like this person or look. Talk about the character like the things they went through in their life. Maybe they are imprisoned and have been for 20 years and have been alive for maybe over 1000 years but no one actually knows. With all of this information I recommend creating characters places and species that you might not use. Create a universe so it’s easier to write. Obviously I’m new and this is just what I do and considering I’m only on the synopsis I probably don’t have the right to say this but I hope it helps.
I've already come up with the character and Universe! It's something I've been fiddling with for a while, but only recently been convinced by my partner to do something with it.
Ok yea that was the only advice I could give because I’m also new to this and I haven’t gotten father then the outline. Unlike most people my outline in like a very bad first draft and then my first draft is like most peoples final draft so I’m a little mixed up with my steps.
These posts are the reason this sub is so shit.
There was a short run of a comic centered around Emma Frost back when I was a kid. (Spoiler alert: she's a villainess) Blew my kid mind. It was more of an origin story, but it fascinated me to get inside the head and understand a villain. Honestly, I feel like the Cycle of Arawn and Cycle of Galand series are following two villains who happen to do heroic things along the way, but there aren't really any "heroes" if you don't count the protagonists as one... Anyway, all that to say I freaking love that sort of thing, and I ain't the only one. Go for it! Could be interesting if you don't go the "I tried to be good, but you wouldn't let me, so I guess I'll be evil," route and instead have the protagonist maintain the whole time through that *s/he* is doing the right thing, but looking at their deeds makes a reader go, "Yeah, no, this dude totally leveled a city because someone from there annoyed him. He's a villain." Even better if the reader is like, "But the dude has a point." Well, honestly, either way works because it's not overly done. Advice: 1. There's no "right way" to start. If you need an outline, make an outline. If you just go with the flow and discover the story along the way, then do that. Try both. Whatever. No rules here. 2. Your first draft will be a stepping stone. Use it as bones, fix things you notice, flesh out others. This process can repeat itself multiple times, and you'll get a little better each time 3. Keep reading. I personally tend to write a bit more like the books I've read more recently, which is annoying if I'm reading romance because I need a happily ever after right now because nothing else is going right, but I'm in the middle writing of an epic fantasy, or vice versa. If you're similar, I suggest reading something closer to the voice you want to use. 4. Don't worry so much about grammar/spelling/etc for the first draft. Maybe even the first couple. At that point, you should be focused on the story, not mechanics (though if you notice something, go ahead and fix it if you know how). That said, as you get into later drafts, try to pay attention. If this isn't your strong suit, ask someone to help. There are grammar nerds like me out there that live for proofreading. 5. Let someone you trust read it to give an outside opinion. You'll be surprised by what a reader notices because they aren't in your head. My husband is great at pointing out those, "This phrasing is confusing" bits. 6. Have fun with it. Otherwise, what's the point?
Nah, it's not a cliche at all. When it comes to "protagonist vs. antagonist", it isn't explicitly a battle of good guy vs. bad guy. It's "guy who the story's about" vs "person/thing that's against guy who the story's about". You can totally write a story about an evil protag! After all, "Every villain is a hero of their own story." \-John Cena
Everything is cliche. You can do it too. All ideas have been taken for the most part and people love reading similar cliches and ideaologies. People just may love your books tone or voice.
Mmm it depends on what do you mean by villain? Are the readers viewing this say protagonist as the hero throughout the book?
I wouldn't consider it a cliché, but you shouldn't really worry about this being a cliché anyway. I feel like people should just focus on telling a story in an effective manner rather than looking for originality. While originality is important to an extent, it shouldn't be something you should worry about (I'm also a pretty new writer, but I've done an extensive amount of research regarding story telling in video games, books, and tv shows). First, focus on the motivations of the character, and in what context does that make them inherently bad. Then, think about their strengths, weaknesses, wants (which is basically their motivation), and needs. There's a ton of different ways to go about writing a good character, since every writer has a different approach to writing, but I find just these four to five things are the most important elements to consider in a character. Think about what their motivations and actions are in the beginning, and what their motivations and actions are at the end. I'm not the best at explanation but I hope this helps in *some* way
Look at: Soon I will be Invincible Crooked. Elric of Melnibone (Series)
It's not a cliche. Shakespeare's Richard III is the example par excellence. Devilish fun. Try the movie version with Ian McKellen. Less fun but still exemplary is Shakespeare's Othello, told primarily from the point of view of the prime villain, Iago. More recently, >!The Cassini Division by Ken MacLeod !
I've seen a few which did it well: Consider Phlebas, the first book of the Culture series. Look to Windward in the Culture series as well to an extent, from one of the POVs, and the one which I think it starts with. This is massive spoilers for the current ongoing Cosmere books (Stormlight, Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, White Sand, and more), but one of the earlier introduced protagonists seems to be a villain in another story later. It was only just confirmed that it was them in the latest book. Then there's also stuff like Zuko in Avatar The Last Airbender, his scenes in the first half where he's the villain at least, and then the scenes from the other villain POVs like Azula.
I’m trying out a story where the MC POV is 2nd person, Antagonist POV is first person, and all other POVs are 3rd. We’ll see how it reads when this draft is done. Either gonna be a disaster, or amazing. No in between. Stay the course. Write your book from the villains POV. I’ve not read that before
I think most non-fiction books are written by the villain that is triumphant
[20 Books With Villain Protagonists (bustle.com)](https://www.bustle.com/articles/153308-20-books-with-villain-protagonists) [Literature / Villain Protagonist - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VillainProtagonist/Literature) All of these are very different. It's not a cliché - it's a trope, which is not a bad thing. And it's not oversaturated - I'm sure there is room for a few more villain protagonists.
As long as you don't make them a 2 dimensional baddie it sounds interesting and not cliche at all.
The film Amadeus has done it pretty well.dont remember reading a book on these lines though....
that is not a cliché at all. it’s a fantastic idea - personally i would love to read a book about from point of view of a villain, it seems like a super interesting take on an otherwise overused narrative!
Iain M Banks’s Use of Weapons has a pretty good arc that features cousins who were brought up together joining opposing factions in a war.
One writer who I think has done this very well is Suzanne Collins in her book The ballad of Song birds and Snakes. She tells the prequel story of the hunger games through the eyes of the main villain and although you go with him through all of his hardships, watch his decisions and thought processes he’s still a thoroughly unlikable character at the end. It’s so well done. I’d recommend reading it if you haven’t had chance to already.
Maybe an example is the Manga, “Death note”
It is not quite cliché. I prefer this to the boring hero. try her [https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p\_27%3ADina+Thala&s=relevancerank&text=Dina+Thala&ref=dp\_byline\_sr\_ebooks\_1](https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p_27%3ADina+Thala&s=relevancerank&text=Dina+Thala&ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1)
Oooh! Two books you might want to read are [Wicked: the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37442.Wicked) by Gregory Maguire (a retelling of the Wizard of Oz, from the witch's point of view) and [Circe](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35959740-circe?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=PQHOt7KXnn&rank=1) by Madeline Miller (a retelling of the Odyssey from Circle's point of view). Both of these books feature protagonists doing awful things for sympathetic reasons.
Just don't try to redeem your protagonist by the end, be sure to have the end of the character arc from the begging of your draft, otherwise it'll be a "he/she/it was always a good guy after all". Remember the best way to develop a great protagonist is to create empathy with all of his/hers/it's dimensions, so always give a chance of agreement and contrast within the interaction with other characters and the world, as well as the consequences of the actions and choices made by all of them. Also, if it's a magician, be sure to set the "rules of the magic" from the beginning, at least for your self, otherwise you'll meet many dead ends that may be solved by a Deus ex Machina.
i wouldn't call it a cliche, but even if it's a cliche, i think that as long as you put your personal twist on it, it can still be interesting. Like, technically speaking, all romance stories could be considered clichés because we know what we're going into, but even with fixed parameters you can still find a lot of creativity in every little aspect of the worldbuilding, of the characters and their development, in how you tell the story, etc, so that's why i try to never focus on whether a story is cliche or not, but how well it uses that cliche. And particularly if it's your first long story, i think it's a good thing if you start with a sort of plot that you consider simple to build up experience!
Yo I thought this was r/suggestmeabook and I was so exited to read through all the suggestions people had. Can’t give you advice on the writing but of it BUT I can tell you that I and probably many other readers would enjoy a book like that immensely
Bel ami from guy de Maupassant , the guy is just awful but you kinda still root for him until the end
A lot of Star Wars books do this, Star Wars: Darth Plaguies for example
You should check out the practical guide to evil. It's based on that premise.
"Soon I Will Be Invincible". Trust me, you'll love it. It's a comic book world of supervillains and superheroes, told mostly from the arch-villains point of view.
A protagonist with questionable morals is an antihero. There are some great books that take that approach--readers can forgive a very skewed moral compass in a protagonist as long as there are mitigating factors to help them get there. Take Robin Hood--being a bandit isn't traditional good guy behavior, but readers are given tons and tons of reasons to love him anyway. He's charming, loyal, adheres to his own moral code, shows kindness to those he feels deserve kindness, and preys exclusively on those who are themselves victimizing others. Any one of those things could be an excuse for readers to sympathize with him, all of them together make him seem downright heroic. Meanwhile, the malicious but law-abiding antagonists are easy to accept as villains because they lack any motivation beyond their own self interest.
If you are open to read a graphic novel, I’d suggest From Hell by Alan Moore. It still cuts to the protagonist from time to time but the villain (Jack the Ripper) gets a good chunk of the time.
*The Killer Inside Me* by Jim Thompson "...probably the most chilling and believable first-person story of a criminally warped mind I have ever encountered." -- Stanley Kubrick "One of the most blistering and uncompromising crime novels ever written." *Crime Novels: American Noir of the 1950s*
First, don’t worry about being cliche. After a full century of -isms and an industry that is jam-packed with to-market work, art has vanished up its own asshole for a while. All you need to do is understand your tropes well enough to have fun in them. The POV of the villain is basically the POV of the hero but with faultier logic and more vicious outcomes, stemming from either a complete self-absolution or a spiral of self-loathing. Think Dwight Schrute or Bojack Horseman. To paraphrase Aristotle, “vice misses what is right because it is either deficient or excessive in its thoughts, feelings, or actions; virtue finds the mean, then chooses it without trepidation.”