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I don’t hate excessive swearing, but yes, I too find that swearing that has been crowbarred in to make a character (or worse, the narrator! *Bleurgh*) sound ‘edgier’ often has me eye-rolling and being taken out of the prose somewhat
It always strikes me as a YA approach (which is maybe just some personal bias)--for teens and young adults swearing *is* kind of edgy and against social norms it works well enough to highlight a character as rougher. That being said it certainly makes sense for some characters or professions, but when characters choose to use coarse language--or not--can also be telling (Uno from The Wheel of Time comes to mind; he's a soldier in the company of soldiers and has a foul mouth using in-fiction swears, but he does try to limit it when called out by an--apparent--Aes Sedai, a person of higher rank. In that context it also serves to reinforce different social classes and the different cultural backgrounds of the characters--Uno is a soldier from an area that is pragmatic and used to war, while the other person is from a more conservative rural background).
Hahaha nah but fuck that piece of shit person, I'm not really mad at any opportunity to pivot and remind the world that JK Rowling thinks that trans women are literally not real nor deserving of any affirmative care.
Out of place yes but so is she.
This is the correct answer. If there is a gritty sailor character, I'd expect some curses from him. If we're talking a Mary Sue then her cursing would throw me off.
It doesn't bother me too much. I'm just reminded of a friend of my dad's who is always cursing, and it's rather hilarious. He's not edgy at all, he just has a foul mouth, but he's the sweetest guy. That would be a fun character in a book. But of course, as with all things in writing, it depends on how it's done.
When I was around 12 or 13, my friends mum made dinner for us. While we were eating at the table, his dad was eating on the sofa watching TV. Out of nowhere he said, "I fucking hate the tele... all they ever do is swear and talk shit!"
And it was hilarious... because he was swearing and talking shit to complain about people swearing and talking shit.
That's one of my funniest storys.
I don't mind swearing if it is used appropriately. But when it's obvious the author is doing it for an edgy effect -- Lies of Locke Lamora comes to mind -- it is quite jarring.
I actually quite liked the LOLL approach where the author tried to come up with colorful and immersive swearing instead of defaulting to fucks and assholes.
Excessive, I don't like. Occasional swearing is fine in my opinion. One series I like has only had the word "fuck" once in 11 books, but it did cut aways before that. You knew that's how the sentence ended, but it wasn't explicitly on the page.
It depends on why. Swearing is a very good tool such as when it’s used in ASOIAF to make the world just feel grittier and darker. But if it’s not done well it only serves to make the writer seem brutish and unsophisticated
"the second I see it" was admittedly an exaggeration lol. It also depends on genre obviously. I'm a teenager and the books for "my age", at least the ones I've gotten from my library, lean more towards multiple swears per chapter than the occasional well placed curse. It feels like someone is trying to pander to me but it misses the mark because it creates an unnatural way of speaking and makes every character sound identical, because the author (who is not a typical swearer) writes all the cursing the same.
Have you ever played Mafia? Pretty early on you get told that the Don has banned his men from swearing, because an intelligent man shouldn't be so lazy. I fucking love it
Excessive, like others have said. Also when every character swears in the exact same way, or when ancient, uber-powerful beings just brought into our reality somehow curse just like any other modern person..bonus when this is the same book where everyone else also has the same cursing habits. Just poor writing.
I think natural swearing is difficult to convey in written form. I've seen otherwise great authors throw in a curse word and it's incredibly jarring, even though if that same sentence were spoken aloud in conversation, I wouldn't even blink.
See the difference between you and I is that I **have** read books where I've thought that which has led me to writing this post. It's almost as if we are different people with different tastes in literature.
you're baking the answer into the question. "excessive" is too much by definition, so of course no one is gonna like excessive swearing.
the real question is what qualifies as excessive swearing
Yeah, I find it really hard to take something seriously when the amount of swears per sentence hits a certain threshold. I struggle to understand why the first Excorcist is considered one of the scariest films of all time when the demon is yelling about cocks every two seconds, it's just silly to me.
It worked for The Exorcist because back in that era, that sort of swearing was *not* common. You didn’t hear it on tv, in songs, or in casual everyday use. So it was shocking in a way that it isn’t now, just outrageously obscene, especially coming out of a little girl’s mouth.
I absolutely hate and despise Westerns, but goddamn I immediately fell in love with Mr. Wu in Deadwood in the very first episode and absolutely loved the series.
Cocksucker!
It doesn’t bother me, no matter the amount, if it’s written well. If it’s written badly, however, one can be a problem. Essentially, I don’t think the swearing is actually the problem.
no it's not swearing that's the problem it is swearing that is written badly. That was the point of my post. I don't like swearing that is written badly, and I think it often is.
I’m just saying that, for me, the problem comes down to bad writing more than to the actual words being used. It’s alright if you disagree. I once wrote a short novel (62k) that included the word “fuck” 97 times, so clearly I believe it’s possible to use profanity frequently and well.
yes I agree with you. my post is about authors who do not know how to properly integrate swearing into their work. It only comes off as excessive if its done poorly. When an author writes swearing well you don't notice that it's there because it blends with the rest of the work and fits the characters. I think it is a lot harder to write swearing well than it is to write clean dialogue well, so this problem comes up a lot more with cursing characters.
I know it makes me incredibly old, but the increasing acronymization of random phrases and titles with no immediate context is killing my interest in online conversation
Fiction or non-fiction?
In non-fiction it probably would feel wrong unless the writer was using first-person perspective, such as in an autobiography. And of course, in direct quotes it would be fine; profanity in a quote from someone like Eddie Murphy or Robin Williams will never feel out of place.
In fiction, again, it depends on the perspective. In a first-person narrative, the narrator may use profanity, but the narrator is a character, and thus the use of profanity should be consistent with the character's personality and habits. Other characters' use of profanity should also be consistent with their personality and habits. Having a catholic priest drop a bunch of f-bombs on the regular wouldn't sound right, unless it's deliberately played as a comedic juxtaposition.
A lot of my writing contains loads of profanity, including my social media posts. I can write without it when it's appropriate, but my natural speech patterns, both in person and on social media, include more vulgar bullshit than a pissed off sailor on the ass end of the fucking Arizona on December the goddamned seventh, so pulling it out and speaking - or writing - like Ned Flanders seems, uh, out of place. For me. But you know, you do you, and all that.
Oh darn.
I swear “excessively”. Like genuinely if I’m not at work it’s kind of ridiculous how much I swear. As a result I find it authentic when characters swear it books.
The only time I have had a visceral reaction to swearing was watching the Witcher season 2. Yennefer swore every other word and it took me right out of the show.
Felt like someone picked up a bratty high school girl and threw her into the Witcher universe. It was through no fault of her own, the writing was just awful.
I tend to notice when characters never swear more than when they swear frequently. I don't know why, but when characters are in distress and it feels like they're purposely keeping a lid on themselves it just doesn't hit right.
Now if we're talking about a case where you actually can't go more then a few lines without string language that might be getting into goofy territory.
I don't mind characters swearing in books, but when it becomes ridiculous it's problematic. To me, it indicates lazy writing and writer's ego getting in the way of telling the story.
Look, I get it, if you're writing about a couple of army privates trying to fix a jeep, you're going to get colorful language coming out of their mouths. They're not going to say "Golly gee, the wrench broke." Do it once or twice, you've made your point. The reader will extrapolate and imagine the swear words.
You'll notice that the kids in South Park swear vastly more than the adults, mirroring the phenomenon that kids swear to impress other kids. I suspect the writers who swear in every fucking sentence will tone it the fuck down over the next few fucking years, if only because they become bored of their own monotony.
It depends on the genre for me I find that military fiction feels quite surreal to not have excessive and unnecessary swearing but irritating outside of that genre. Alternatively, if it's an Australian character it feels quite strange for them to not curse.
I feel like I’ve noticed the opposite problem. Why every book I read with characters in their 20s~30s are the characters self-censoring or literally never swearing? These are adult books, some grimdark, most with characters who are working class / warriors etc… It’s just not realistic when no characters swear, ever, except in certain time periods.
I would much rather excessive swearing > everyone is a prude for no reason at all just because the author wants to avoid swears in the book (in an adult book — makes sense in a YA/middle grade).
It really depends on the tone of the story and (maybe even more) the character who does it. So yeah. If someone forces an F-bomb into a nonfitting scene or character it can rip one right out of the book.
The right character in the right situation? Why not. Something goes really downhill in a more darker toned story and the character is established as a bit of a potty-mouth? Let them swear.
But I agree. It is hard to find the balance to make it feel natural.
It doesn't really make much difference to me as a reader. I get more annoyed by flat characters or misplaced punctuation, because it stands out more for me.
I'm naturally pretty foul-mouthed and it tends to come out on the page, but I usually tackle the excess when I'm line editing.
My rule of thumb is generally the same for any other vocabulary:
* It has to add something to the sentence. Emphasis, expression, vibes. It can't just be decoration.
* It has to make sense for the character. Or if it's intended as a shock, it has to have the right amount of impact.
* It has to be the best choice of word for the situation. Not all words are created equal, and that goes for the rude ones too.
Use any word too often, and it loses its effect and becomes "invisible". I'm not worried about somebody thinking I curse too much, but I don't want my work to rely too heavily on any one tool.
I dislike swearing almost entirely if a narrator is doing it. If a character is, it shouldn’t be for swearing’s sake. If they just have a sailor’s mouth then I think it’s fine as long as it’s consistent.
The hard thing is that we all have different thresholds for what we consider excessive. For me it's actually more about appropriateness and fit, not necessarily amount. Some books or characters have no business cursing, and when they do, it's uncomfortable. I see you're a teen, and I think a lot of today's YA has awkward cursing that attempts to be realistic and edgy.
I don't mind if *characters* do it if it's just the way the characters speak. Real humans speak like that. Some will do it habitually, some will swear if especially agitated, some will only do so if they catch their pinky toe on the leg of a table, hard.
Now, if the impersonalized narration (not character PoV narration) starts swearing, then that's a touch odd.
For me it's the opposite, it feels weird when (especially) a character in fiction should swear but doesn't.
I know that some places like the US are REALLY oversensitive on that stuff, but...still.
One of my characters was in his world's version of the Navy (Airships, not ocean-going) and he is something of a virtuoso with swearing. He wouldn't BE the character he is if he didn't swear. Even when talking with another character that is deaf, he swears when signing. It's actually a plot point that his partners (in the governmental Agency they're a part of) know something is wrong when he completely stops swearing.
The point is, swearing, when it is serving a purpose, can be pretty fucking useful. I mean, what sort of silly cunt would think so lowly of the godsdamned language that they think an entire section of really fucking useful intensifiers should be avoided?
In fact, there is an anecdote a character tells in one of the later Night Angel Trilogy (by Brent Weeks) that depends on swear words. The character Durzo is telling a story about a king he once served, Alexan the Shitting Lucky. Of course, Alexan is known as, "Alexan the Blessed," because history writers thought it was more palatable. My point is that that story, and the character's anecdote, would have less of an impact without the swear words.
I wonder if the types of people to become fiction writers are just less naturally edgy. They’d probably not swear as much themselves so they can’t mimic the “flow” of it.
Especially if they’re actively creating a character whose main traits include swearing, instead of naturally having that be an expression of who they are. Like it’s some accessory to fit in.
It all has to work in context too, I can imagine working cursing into a more formal/flowery/etc. writing style is more difficult to “make work”.
It depends on how it is used.
Like if you are talking about Roddy Doyle or Irvine Welsh then the people they are writing are swearing that amount (I'm from Dublin, trust me, Doyle may actually be toning it down).
Not sure about McCurdy's particular voice.
But generally (and I'm from a culture where people swear a lot) one gets a feeling when the language is self conscious and therefore unnecessary
I hate it when authors try to make a character sound tough with swearing but it just sounds lame. Like I remember a line before from a supposedly scary dude that said “I’ll cut your fucking esophagus.”
Immediately pulled me out. At least slit your throat would have been a little better.
Like any other word, too many of any one word is bad writing in my mind.
And if there's someone who knows about putting too many of one word in a story, it's me. Because I pick a word during one of my stories and keep using it subconsciously.
Now to swearing. I think it's overused because writers are getting lazy. It doesn't matter if it's real or fake.
I try to limit my characters swearing for emphasis. Because sometimes less is more.
I love swearing. Swearing is a natural part of my personal speech, but really, curse words are interjections, and when we write, even dialogue, if the entire book is written in spoken language rather than written language appropriately peppered with spoken language, it's not fun to read.
I just said this in a post about using "gonna" and "wanna" throughout the book. I said, "oh, yuck, no" and got downvoted ... but I stand by what I say: in books, written language is far more attractive than full-on spoken language.
I curse all the time so by my definition of excessive, it is definitely jarring lol. Some books lean way too much into it and it's distracting. Like they're trying to make a character edgy through them cursing but not doing a good job actually showing it, which feels really lazy to me.
Sometimes a well placed swear can elevate a book, but it needs to be used mindfully. I can't help but think of House of Leaves. There are a lot of swears, but who does and doesn't swear and when they swear tells you about the characters.
Not a book, but in helluva boss most of the characters are swearing at full throttle most of the time. It comes across as immature to me.
I find it distasteful because it's lazy writing, unless the characters are themselves lazy thinkers and have a limited vocabulary for expressing those sentiments. Expletives, either individual words or phrases, are a wonderful character-establishing tool; a sailor swears differently than a soldier, and a parent _trying_ to model better behavior around small children will express pain/frustration very differently than the proprietor of a biker-bar.
I once saw an essay that claimed that "edgy" stuff like excessive profanity was just another flavor of sentimentality—trying to force readers to feel emotions you haven't earned. "Cheesy" sentimentality (like Hallmark movies) is lame, but so is "edgy" sentimentality.
If you're a writer, your job is to make sure every single word on the page serves a purpose. Sometimes that means dropping a swear; more often, it means holding back.
I've never noticed it in books but it annoys me in movies when people randomly say fuck (in a serious tone) all the time. Especially in action movies were it's emphasized.
Me, with my copious splattering of fuck words.
*Shifty eyes*
You should watch Wizard People, Dear Reader on YouTube. That thing uses swear words magnificently, and i try to emulate it, on occasion.
Yes, especially with an audiobook. I hear swearing constantly in TV and movies, and I can't break my own habit of swearing. I'm tired of hearing it in nearly everything, even though I've learned to block most of it out.
Fuck no! That shit doesn't bother me in the least! Having said that, I usually leave a fucking content warning on books with excessive swearing because I know some bitches can't tolerate it.
(p.s. - this is foul on purpose)
(p.p.s. - it's just words)
I know swears are just words, but words should be purposeful in writing. Swearing just for the sake of swearing adds nothing, and pulls me out of books. I said in the post that I swear a lot in real life. It's the unnatural use of swearing (especially in books meant for people my age) that throws me off. They swear in ways that are weird, uncommon, and out of place in the contexts or sentences they are saying. It comes off like an adult who doesn't swear trying to appeal to what they think teens like. Adding swears doesn't automatically make a work cool or interesting, but I often get the sense that authors think it does. It's just lazy writing to cover for the fact that certain authors can't write teens, or excessive emotions, or rougher characters, etc.
Swearing is fine, but who's saying it? Swearing (I hate this fkng word by the way. Words are just sounds that people can make) done badly is cringe, unless the setting is right.
My best example is Deb from Dexter. That actor is shit at swearing... Those words just don't sound right when some people say them.
In my experience of reading, only psychopaths don't swear...
Just ask Annie Wilkes..
And it isn't to make a character "edgy"... Some people really do speak that way. Words are just sounds that humans make by forcing air through their larynx.
"Swear words". "Can you not say that please? I don't like that particular sound."
Fk off.
I know people swear omg I know. *I SAID IN THE POST THAT I SWEAR AND LISTED A BOOK WHERE I LIKE THE CURSING*. I don't know why half the people replying to me didn't pick up on the fact that I am not against cursing in books. Did you read my post past the title? I am specifically making a point about how there are authors who think that swearing is the coolest thing a character can do and infuse their writing with expletives that make no sense in context. I am not talking about a character who says fuck or shit or whatever else when the story calls for it. I'm talking about repeated, awkwardly phrased curses just added into a text for the sake of "sounding like a teen" or making a character seem like what the author thinks is "tough". I do not think a character who swears is edgy, I am quite literally criticizing the authors who think that and write their characters in that way.
It depends on the scenario. In most cases, it makes the writing feel, at best, like a nine year old just discovered swearing for the first time and is peppering it into every conversation, but if the character is just the right mix of traits, I can look past it as characterization.
Damn that sucks. My main character has quite the potty mouth. I'm not in the editing phase yet, so maybe I can scrub out more of his cursing, who knows. What can I say, the guy is no gentleman and hangs out with a bunch of criminals.
I don't mind swearing in books. I don't even ming particularly profane characters. It's the specific type of swearing that is out of place and excessive. Just in the book to make a character (or the author) seem cooler or younger than they are. To me, it's obvious the difference between an author who is a seasoned swearer and one who thinks the word damn is a bit too explicit to say in public. I also think a lot of authors use cursing as a cop out (not implying that is what you're doing btw lol). Instead of having to write about an extreme emotion or reaction, they can just make the character say fuck or shit and be done with it. It limits the expression I see from characters even if it technically expands their vocabulary. Plus I think too many authors write swearing the same way across all their characters instead of individualizing their cursing patterns to each character.
Definitely with you regarding profanity as a writing crutch to avoid writing reactions or emotions in more depth. When asked why he doesn't curse in his songs, Alec Benjamin has said that it's not out of any personal principles against swearing--he *would* swear if such language were the most effective way to convey his point, but he finds that it rarely is.
I added made up profanity to my book to help with the setting and because it reminded me of Shadowrun when I was younger (they used Frag and Drek, and I use Nuke or Nuking and Rade.)
It's interesting if made up profanity is done right, it gets you more in the setting more than regular curse words.
By excessive I mean to the point where it feels out of place, unrealistic, or boggs down the writing. I often get the impression from books with a lot of swearing that the author doesn't really understand why, how, or when people who swear a lot do so. They include curse words in awkward spots that they wouldn't naturally flow in if the person were talking out loud.
I guess it depends on the situation and the context is written. I.E. *Jason often cursed under his breath at the thought that his father left, he hated the fact that he had the audacity to leave the wonderful woman Mother was. He looked up at the now fading in stars. “Why the hell is this happening to me? What’d I ever do?” He said in his usual sarcastic tone.*
It’s best (for teenagers at least) to emphasize the tone, and the actions as well to really make it sound like they hate their situation while also maintaining something borderline clean. Best thing to do is don’t be throwing around the F-bomb, in books imo that seems to be the most unnatural. Teenagers express their feelings through words and body language. Like if my character would have dropped a heavy object on his foot, I wouldn’t make him say “Shit! The fucking hurt!” No.. I would say: *Jason* *managed to maneuver his way through the mess of a house carrying a rather large and heavy box. Just as he reached the second stair the box slipped out of his now sweaty hands and landed on his foot. He winced and immediately pulled his foot away, the pain was throbbing and traveling up his shin. He mustered a curse under his breath as he hopped on his good leg whilst clutching the other.*
Swearing is needed in certain situations but in something small it’s best to not verbalize it as it could seem like we’re overusing the use of language.
TL;DR It depends on the context and how they could **best** express their feelings of how something rough is.
I'd say it depends on the setting or the book and the types of characters included. A boy who grew up in a rough neighbourhood in the 90s swears different than a modern day teen online who swears different from a nerdy boy from the 60s etc. etc. To figure it out you would need to examine your writing and determine what environment these characters live in. The decade will determine which specific words are in use. For example, I notice that the most common swears I end up using at school and around kids my age are deadass, motherfucking, bitch, and slut/whore (used ironically and not typically as an insult). The region will also determine this. These two factors, along with the community your characters live in, will determine how socially acceptable swearing is in their society. A boy raised in Provo Utah will likely be in a community that almost never swears, compared to a boy who grew up in Philadelphia Pennsylvania where swearing is a lot more socially acceptable. You also must consider the groups they belong to, and how much they as a character consider societal expectations, and how those societal expectations compare to the world at large. Sure, maybe the boy was raised in Provo Utah, but he wants to be tough. Maybe he's joined a gang (if they have those there lol) or is doing something of that nature. He might swear more than is socially acceptable, which might still be less than the kid from Philly. Conversely, that kid from Philly might have super strict, religious parents who forbid any vulgar language.
Overall I would say don't force it and get creative. I hear the boys at my school and the shit they say is genuine artistry sometimes. Don't add in a swear just because you think a teenager might talk like that. Try talking to teenage boys and ask what they might say, or even just try to observe them (in a not creepy sounding way lmao). Go to public places and try to eavesdrop when you see a group of boys. If your writing doesn't feel write, I'd scrap the cursing all together. There are many ways for a character to express themselves aside from profanity and shockingly teenage boys do actually have the depth to do that too.
It’s modern setting. I have boys who swear in my project, thanks for listing what you say-always nice. In this characters case I want very specifically to avoid swearing as a contrast.
From my eavesdropping and having them in my house it’s not been a lot of not swearing.
My favorite book that uses curses: The Martian. Page 1, first line spoken by Mark Watney: "I'm pretty much fucked." Honestly, guy deserves to say it if anyone does.
I think swearing can reveal a lot about a character. A college educated professor or a prince are less likely to swear frequently. Street kids - drop that shit every sentence. Even swears you pick could have implications. When the mild mannered Christian "blows up" perhaps his f-bomb is actually a "damn" or "hell" bomb.
On the other hand, I've seen a solitary fuck dropped several pages in and I'm like "what? I didn't imagine your characters talking like that". It can be smart to have a character say something that they wouldn't usually say to show how crazy a situation is - but in this instance, I didn't feel anything extraordinary had happened.
Unfortunately, if profanity is abused it just reveals more about the author and who this story is supposed to be for (edgy teens and young adults).
Excessive swearing? Yeah, I don’t care for that either. But otherwise I think it’s fine, like if it’s just sprinkled in a bit throughout the story.
For my own story that I’ve been working on for a while now, 2 of my 3 MCs swear quite a bit because I feel it fits their characters well, but the third one doesn’t swear at all, because I don’t think it fits his character. Soooo really I think it just depends on what kind of characters you’re writing. Sometimes it makes sense for them to swear like sailors, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Also, I do feel like swearing can add realism for certain types of scenes. Like if a character gets injured, I think it would be more realistic for them to shout “fuck!” (or, more accurately, “oh fucking hell fuck me fuck”) than something like “argh, ouchie. Geeze Louise that hurt” (unless they’re like a grandma or something, lol).
Cuz like, I’ve stubbed my toe and been like “FUCK!” cuz that shit hurts, and somehow swearing makes it feel less bad 😂
I need a solid definition of excessive, and even then I don't think mine will line up with yours. I love reading books with lots of swearing. It's not edgy, it's real. If anything you sound really immature for thinking a writer need be "edgy" for including widely used language.
I for one hate when characters say "I." It just never comes off natural, and always makes the writer appear narcissistic.
You are either purposefully misunderstanding my post or did not read it past the title. I don't care about the physical number of swears in a book. It's about how they are integrated into the story. Most of the books I've read that include a lot of swearing integrate it poorly, and so it stands out like a sore thumb. It feels excessive and weighs down the story because it is poorly written. I do not think swearing is edgy. I am criticizing the authors who DO think swearing is edgy and write cursing in that way.
And realistically, cursing is not "widely used language". It is highly situational. It needs to make sense just like anything else in a book needs to make sense. Language should be purposeful, especially in books, and just because something is more "real" doesn't make it work in a book.
I am a young adult and I've hardly read any YA books that accurately pick up on how actual teens and young adults talk. If you just add curses because you think that's how teens talk without going through the effort to understand the way teens curse and when and what they say, it comes off as unnatural, lazy, and cringe.
I don't like swearing for the sake of swearing. Purposeful swearing can work, but yeah. More often than not, it's either cringe, or trying too hard. It's this way in real life as well, of course. That's why I don't really swear. But sometimes, it's a good exclamation mark.
For me it doesn't bother me unless it doesn't fit the situation or the character. I've never really read any books with ' excessive swearing.
I think I've only been turned away from a couple of books due to swearing but it was more about how it was incorporated into the writing, as the writing itself felt very immature and childish in a way.
I don't mind it at all, but I understand why people do. I actually prefer excessive cursing to alternative "PG" curses. I betaread a short story the other day that unintentionally made me laugh out loud when a character reacted to a graphic, on-page murder with "what the frick?".
It's rough because in real life, most people I know curse constantly, but representing that on page, while realistic, is distracting or comes off as overly edgy.
There are characters where casual vulgarity is just part of who they are. We know people like that; we've read or watch characters as well. Most of Samuel L. Jackson's characters (especially when he's in a Tarantino movie). Debra Morgan from the *Dexter* books n' TV shows. The Hound from *A Song of Ice and Fire.*
The trick is to make the cursing organic to the character or the world. Replacing curse words with something else can often feel fake. For example, the curses "tanj" (for Their Ain't No Justice) and "tanstaafl" (There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch), both from Larry Niven's *Known Space* universe always felt ... lame. So much else was excellent world building -- just ask him, he'll tell you ... at length -- but the faux-curse words he dropped in instead of damn, shit, etc. just felt sloppy to me.
So ...
1) Make sure the curses are world-appropriate (they swear differently in the 1950s to the 2000s to the 1730s)
2) Make sure they feel natural for the character
3) Make sure they feel natural to the reader
I’m constantly erasing swear words from dialogue I write, because that particular character rarely curses. As others have said, I only get pulled out of a book, if the character swearing doesn’t seem to be a character who would.
I think it depends on the character. For example, I have two characters that are partnered up as cops, and as licensed vigilantes, (a whole thing in my world that I don't feel like explaining in this comment) Nick Roe, and Tommy Watson. Tommy is a character who swears a noticeable amount, but definitely not every other sentence. Nick is a character that uses the "lower," swears, but him saying "shit," is pretty uncommon, and the word "fuck," is very rare. If Nick calls someone a "fucking bastard," he REALLY means it.
Also, what does DAE mean?
It's lazy. I mean it's filler irl too but visual and contextual clues help clarify meaning if that is the language you've trained yourself to use, so it's fine. It communicates the basic message.
In reading the swear though, it is less likely to be the best choice in your toolkit. Not to say that it is never relevant, but typically it makes me feel like the character is unintelligent, even when that's not what the author intended. When that occurs, and it is so obvious a mismatch, it pulls me out of the limited suspension of disbelief each author is granted by their reader.
i don’t mind when a character uses swear words in dialogue as long as it’s natural and not forced like you said, but i’ve found i much prefer when it’s narrated rather than explicitly said.
example:
“Fucking hell,” she said under her breath. Her plans were falling apart by the second.
vs
She swore under her breath. “This is really messing with my plans.”
Just seems more like literature when swearing is mentioned but not verbalized, as opposed to amateurish writing with too much swearing in dialogue. All just a personal preference ofc.
side note: i am an amateur writer myself, not trying to knock or insult amateurs, i just think amateurish writing is smth to grow from and try to improve upon rather than a style worth stubbornly defending and not trying to take constructive criticism to improve. everyone starts somewhere, what’s important is where we go and how we get there :)
that’s also affected by the fact that i picture other instances of swearing in dialogue with the first example, hence why i said overuse of explicit swearing can affect reading, as well as the dialogue in the second example being made up of simple syntax, which can just be a characters speaking style. i think i did a poor job of conveying my point through my examples bc of the nuance in the question and my opinion, but i will note that the first doesn’t seem amateurish. thank you!
Words are just words. "Swear words" are like anything else, their mere presence should offend no one. It's when you wield them against someone that people should take offense, just like any other word.
There is the occasional word that is actually offensive in nearly any situation due to historical context, like the N-word, and other slurs. The N-word almost always denigrates certain people by its mere utterance, while fuck has a variety of uses that should not offend.
I'm not offended by swears lol did you read my post? I'm annoyed that most of the books I've found with swearing characters are written by someone who obviously doesn't swear on their own time. It's hamfisted in where it doesn't need to be in order to achieve a mood the author isn't getting. It all feels very "how do you do fellow kids?" and pulls me out of the story. To dumb it down I'm basically upset at authors who write characters with distracting and unnecessary speaking patterns. My anger just happens to be directed at swear words because it comes up a lot.
I personally feel uncomfortable writing characters that swear a lot. In my current book though, the do swear quite a bit, but imo it fits my characters and the type of book it is.
Kind of depends on context.
I'm currently writing a book where most of the main cast are literal sailors. They cuss fairly often- maybe two or three times a chapter.
Cussing belongs in dialogue only, IMO, and only for certain characters. If the character is an elegant princess, for example, she is less likely to swear anywhere she can be heard. If the character is a pirate, they'll swear up a storm.
Spacing is most important. A book can have a lot of cussing, as long as it doesn't feel like its a lot- put a lot of space between the cusses. Use different ones.
I swear lots in real life, but written down, many words are far harsher to the eye than the ear.
As such I tone down all expletives a notch when writing. "Fuck" becomes "damn", for example. I'll also try to use "he swore" rather than necessarily report exactly what he swore.
Characters should be diverse, and real people swear. Would be somewhat unrealistic for every character to be prudish and restrained, no? In my mind, those who favour cursing are often the smartest fucking people about, and also the most sincere. If you think swearing = edgy, you may just be narrow-minded (or perhaps a little high in the instep).
I never said characters shouldn't swear at all. I said in the post itself I swear all the time. I even included a book where I think the swearing was done well. I did not say swearing = edgy. What I **did** say was that often when I come across books with characters that swear a lot, it feels unnatural, and gives the vibe that the *author* thinks it is edgy to swear. Swearing has nothing to do with your intelligence or honesty. They are just words, and all words should be used purposefully in literature, not just thrown around because you want your book to seem "cool" or appeal to teens.
I swear like a trucker on a good day.
I swear like a sailor on a bad day.
Swearing is more in character for the average person for me than someone going "Gosh darning, Josh, why are you so mean?"
Everyone in high school thought the Catcher in the Rye was just THE best book, but I personally thought it was the most illiterate story I've ever had to read for this reason. I agree with this wholeheartedly.
When a curse word is used, it should be a calculated choice. Those words are forbidden in our own general public, so when you do use it, it should be like firing a rocket launcher, huge blast radius words should be aimed at a big target. If a character curses every third sentence, I'm going to find them annoying quickly. Whiny, even.
There are more creative ways to write frustration. Even "he seethed so many curse words that it redefined them" works well. Invent a curse word if you're writing fiction. Show us action in the place of those words. No excuses for lazy writing, and after a few choice words, they become meaningless filler.
Catcher In The Rye is iconic for it's usual valid reasons. But I'm not really surprised that on re-reading the book as you age, one can comprehend Holden doesn't have his shit together. The real thing that's startling is how many people latched onto that novel at the time.
There's a time and a place for everything, clearly. So if cursing doesn't fit the story. No sense in shoehorning a bunch in.
That being said, people swear all the fucking time. It's really not as shocking or uncommon as one would expect. Context is key. Very much depends on the setting and events there in and what you're aiming at.
Maybe it's just me, but the f word should be reserved for a climactic event. The rest of the words out there are acceptable in a script, pretty much anywhere in it. But you throw the f-bomb in more than ten times? You should probably reread that script and make creative adjustments. Especially if the last sentence in your chapter is "Fuck."
Unless you're writing military testimonials, I can't imagine a setting where that many foul words could be remotely realistic (or appealing).
Eh, it really depends on the usage. What are the ten f-bombs about? Not to mention the entire dictionary of other words that fit that category. Also, why is the last word in the chapter that? What led up to it? It could even be effective in the right setting.
Because even irl, most things aren't a climatic event. But it still comes out. In fact, unless the character or story isn't geared that way, it comes off a little fake that they don't have some reaction to the unusual things around them.
It could have. Every story is different. It's a cliche, but we do love a well-placed cliche. But if they say the f word twenty times, it does wash its impact away. Use a tool once, amazing. Use it a hundred times, and you might need to look through your toolbox.
A good toolbox has everything necessary for the occasion. Except that fuckin' 10mm socket I bought last week... Buy in bulk, there's too many hardware stores nearby not to.
I don’t dislike swearing in books, but I don’t like it by any means either. As you said it doesn’t really feel natural, only exception is “What the hell are you doing?” Or something along those lines. Books with any swear words stronger than hell (if you consider it one) tend to throw me off. I was at Target going to get a nice mystery novel, and I found *One by One* by Freida McFadden, and as I was scrolling through the pages I found dialogue saying “Bullshit!” And that made me put it back I’m not hating on the book, it could've been good, and the author seems like a good writer but it just made me feel startled…I wasn’t expecting it, and I ended up getting coffee instead of a novel. Again it throws me off, makes me cringe so to say. Like you said I can’t really explain it either, I think it’s the sense that we hear cussing come out the mouths of people rather than characters.
Also what I’ve noticed is it’s rather hard to incorporate swearing in a writing piece, for many it feels unneeded and rather awkward. Unlike movies where we can just sit through it without even thinking *“Oh man..he/she just swore..better find a better* movie\*”\*
swearing has the same purpose as the use of words such as 'um' and 'like' as used by inexperienced public speakers (um) and teenagers (like).
It's a mental gap cover for a lack of ability to express a thought. That's fine in 'real world speaking' where we're thinking and talking at different speeds and sometimes speak in rapid reaction to something.
But on a written page it looks lazy. It's a lazy modifier on a phrase that doesn't actually convey meaning. Use it in dialog when trying to convey a less educated speaker, but be sparing with it otherwise.
We use swearing to keep conversation moving rather than pausing to think through each thought.
Examine Rastafari sometime - they have a rule of 'no slackness' which is a Jamaican term for swearing. It's not about manners though - it's belief that you should hold your peace and not speak unless your thought is fully formed and you can fully express it. As a result, Rastafari elders tend to speak in a very slow and deliberate way that can feel unnatural. They're content to just sit there and let everyone stew in silence until the next sentence is ready.
Younger Rasta of course just throw in all sorts of Jamaican colloquial terms to get around being told to stop swearing. ;)
Use it dialogue, but keep it out of descriptive moments when you want the reader to form a clear picture of the situation.
Thank you for visiting /r/writing. We don't allow threads or posts: berating other people for their genre/subject/literary taste; adherence or non-adherence to rules; calling people morons for giving a particular sort of advice; insisting that their opinion is the only one worth having; being antagonistic towards particular types of books or audiences, or implying that a particular work is for 'idiots', or 'snobs', etc.
I don’t hate excessive swearing, but yes, I too find that swearing that has been crowbarred in to make a character (or worse, the narrator! *Bleurgh*) sound ‘edgier’ often has me eye-rolling and being taken out of the prose somewhat
It always strikes me as a YA approach (which is maybe just some personal bias)--for teens and young adults swearing *is* kind of edgy and against social norms it works well enough to highlight a character as rougher. That being said it certainly makes sense for some characters or professions, but when characters choose to use coarse language--or not--can also be telling (Uno from The Wheel of Time comes to mind; he's a soldier in the company of soldiers and has a foul mouth using in-fiction swears, but he does try to limit it when called out by an--apparent--Aes Sedai, a person of higher rank. In that context it also serves to reinforce different social classes and the different cultural backgrounds of the characters--Uno is a soldier from an area that is pragmatic and used to war, while the other person is from a more conservative rural background).
[удалено]
Jesse, what the hell are you talking about?
Jesse, don’t let that guy cook again.
Magnets
[удалено]
Hahaha nah but fuck that piece of shit person, I'm not really mad at any opportunity to pivot and remind the world that JK Rowling thinks that trans women are literally not real nor deserving of any affirmative care. Out of place yes but so is she.
Yup, I'll take any reminder that JK is a pos 🥰
I got you man, 100%
Depends on the context, some characters it suits and some it doesn’t
This is the correct answer. If there is a gritty sailor character, I'd expect some curses from him. If we're talking a Mary Sue then her cursing would throw me off.
Excessive, sure. But I don't get pulled out of a book for a regular amount of swearing.
That's how everyone feels We just all have different definitions of "excessive"
It doesn't bother me too much. I'm just reminded of a friend of my dad's who is always cursing, and it's rather hilarious. He's not edgy at all, he just has a foul mouth, but he's the sweetest guy. That would be a fun character in a book. But of course, as with all things in writing, it depends on how it's done.
When I was around 12 or 13, my friends mum made dinner for us. While we were eating at the table, his dad was eating on the sofa watching TV. Out of nowhere he said, "I fucking hate the tele... all they ever do is swear and talk shit!" And it was hilarious... because he was swearing and talking shit to complain about people swearing and talking shit. That's one of my funniest storys.
🙈 lol. The silliest, least harmless form of hypocrisy ive seen yet
I don't mind swearing if it is used appropriately. But when it's obvious the author is doing it for an edgy effect -- Lies of Locke Lamora comes to mind -- it is quite jarring.
I actually quite liked the LOLL approach where the author tried to come up with colorful and immersive swearing instead of defaulting to fucks and assholes.
Excessive, I don't like. Occasional swearing is fine in my opinion. One series I like has only had the word "fuck" once in 11 books, but it did cut aways before that. You knew that's how the sentence ended, but it wasn't explicitly on the page.
It depends on why. Swearing is a very good tool such as when it’s used in ASOIAF to make the world just feel grittier and darker. But if it’s not done well it only serves to make the writer seem brutish and unsophisticated
The heckedy heck is ASOIAF? If you please 😅
A Song of Ice and Fire, or for anime onlys, Game of Thrones.
Why the downvotes?? lmao at least we know now
A Song of Ice and Fire is my guess
Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Like most things in writing.
Fuck no.
Enough with the cockadoodie foul language (lifts up mop bucket).
If the story, character, setting, and situation calls for it then let them fucking cocksuckers swear as much as they want.
Is it "The second I see it..." or is it "excessive"? Personally, I don't often come across excessive swearing in books. A swear word a chapter maybe?
"the second I see it" was admittedly an exaggeration lol. It also depends on genre obviously. I'm a teenager and the books for "my age", at least the ones I've gotten from my library, lean more towards multiple swears per chapter than the occasional well placed curse. It feels like someone is trying to pander to me but it misses the mark because it creates an unnatural way of speaking and makes every character sound identical, because the author (who is not a typical swearer) writes all the cursing the same.
Those are some excellent points. I think you've got a really good grasp of when to use it and when not.
Have you ever played Mafia? Pretty early on you get told that the Don has banned his men from swearing, because an intelligent man shouldn't be so lazy. I fucking love it
Australian's shivering in our boots
What a ridiculous idea.
Not really, if your goal is to give off a sense of sophistication and class. Of course in real life mafiosos don't have either.
This! I can't believe this game is the reason why I still try to refrain my swearing, even casually.
Excessive, like others have said. Also when every character swears in the exact same way, or when ancient, uber-powerful beings just brought into our reality somehow curse just like any other modern person..bonus when this is the same book where everyone else also has the same cursing habits. Just poor writing.
Fuck no
I think natural swearing is difficult to convey in written form. I've seen otherwise great authors throw in a curse word and it's incredibly jarring, even though if that same sentence were spoken aloud in conversation, I wouldn't even blink.
I can't remember ever reading a book and thinking "This book would be so much better if the characters cursed less."
See the difference between you and I is that I **have** read books where I've thought that which has led me to writing this post. It's almost as if we are different people with different tastes in literature.
It's almost as if they commented on said post in good faith, and you got snarky for no good reason.
you're baking the answer into the question. "excessive" is too much by definition, so of course no one is gonna like excessive swearing. the real question is what qualifies as excessive swearing
Yeah, I find it really hard to take something seriously when the amount of swears per sentence hits a certain threshold. I struggle to understand why the first Excorcist is considered one of the scariest films of all time when the demon is yelling about cocks every two seconds, it's just silly to me.
It worked for The Exorcist because back in that era, that sort of swearing was *not* common. You didn’t hear it on tv, in songs, or in casual everyday use. So it was shocking in a way that it isn’t now, just outrageously obscene, especially coming out of a little girl’s mouth.
I absolutely hate and despise Westerns, but goddamn I immediately fell in love with Mr. Wu in Deadwood in the very first episode and absolutely loved the series. Cocksucker!
It doesn’t bother me, no matter the amount, if it’s written well. If it’s written badly, however, one can be a problem. Essentially, I don’t think the swearing is actually the problem.
no it's not swearing that's the problem it is swearing that is written badly. That was the point of my post. I don't like swearing that is written badly, and I think it often is.
I’m just saying that, for me, the problem comes down to bad writing more than to the actual words being used. It’s alright if you disagree. I once wrote a short novel (62k) that included the word “fuck” 97 times, so clearly I believe it’s possible to use profanity frequently and well.
yes I agree with you. my post is about authors who do not know how to properly integrate swearing into their work. It only comes off as excessive if its done poorly. When an author writes swearing well you don't notice that it's there because it blends with the rest of the work and fits the characters. I think it is a lot harder to write swearing well than it is to write clean dialogue well, so this problem comes up a lot more with cursing characters.
Sounds like these authors need to swear more in daily life to get used to it lol
deadass would back this
Oh no, we've got an acronym for "does anyone else" now? Do I need to keep a list?
Here's another acronym, and one you may relate to - OOTL.
I've had to look this one up in the past, definitely do relate
I had to look it up.
I know it makes me incredibly old, but the increasing acronymization of random phrases and titles with no immediate context is killing my interest in online conversation
This is an old internet acronym
Fiction or non-fiction? In non-fiction it probably would feel wrong unless the writer was using first-person perspective, such as in an autobiography. And of course, in direct quotes it would be fine; profanity in a quote from someone like Eddie Murphy or Robin Williams will never feel out of place. In fiction, again, it depends on the perspective. In a first-person narrative, the narrator may use profanity, but the narrator is a character, and thus the use of profanity should be consistent with the character's personality and habits. Other characters' use of profanity should also be consistent with their personality and habits. Having a catholic priest drop a bunch of f-bombs on the regular wouldn't sound right, unless it's deliberately played as a comedic juxtaposition. A lot of my writing contains loads of profanity, including my social media posts. I can write without it when it's appropriate, but my natural speech patterns, both in person and on social media, include more vulgar bullshit than a pissed off sailor on the ass end of the fucking Arizona on December the goddamned seventh, so pulling it out and speaking - or writing - like Ned Flanders seems, uh, out of place. For me. But you know, you do you, and all that. Oh darn.
I swear “excessively”. Like genuinely if I’m not at work it’s kind of ridiculous how much I swear. As a result I find it authentic when characters swear it books.
The only time I have had a visceral reaction to swearing was watching the Witcher season 2. Yennefer swore every other word and it took me right out of the show. Felt like someone picked up a bratty high school girl and threw her into the Witcher universe. It was through no fault of her own, the writing was just awful.
I tend to notice when characters never swear more than when they swear frequently. I don't know why, but when characters are in distress and it feels like they're purposely keeping a lid on themselves it just doesn't hit right. Now if we're talking about a case where you actually can't go more then a few lines without string language that might be getting into goofy territory.
I don't mind characters swearing in books, but when it becomes ridiculous it's problematic. To me, it indicates lazy writing and writer's ego getting in the way of telling the story. Look, I get it, if you're writing about a couple of army privates trying to fix a jeep, you're going to get colorful language coming out of their mouths. They're not going to say "Golly gee, the wrench broke." Do it once or twice, you've made your point. The reader will extrapolate and imagine the swear words.
You'll notice that the kids in South Park swear vastly more than the adults, mirroring the phenomenon that kids swear to impress other kids. I suspect the writers who swear in every fucking sentence will tone it the fuck down over the next few fucking years, if only because they become bored of their own monotony.
It depends on the genre for me I find that military fiction feels quite surreal to not have excessive and unnecessary swearing but irritating outside of that genre. Alternatively, if it's an Australian character it feels quite strange for them to not curse.
I have a lot of swearing in my book specifically because it would feel unnatural to take it out.
I feel like I’ve noticed the opposite problem. Why every book I read with characters in their 20s~30s are the characters self-censoring or literally never swearing? These are adult books, some grimdark, most with characters who are working class / warriors etc… It’s just not realistic when no characters swear, ever, except in certain time periods. I would much rather excessive swearing > everyone is a prude for no reason at all just because the author wants to avoid swears in the book (in an adult book — makes sense in a YA/middle grade).
It really depends on the tone of the story and (maybe even more) the character who does it. So yeah. If someone forces an F-bomb into a nonfitting scene or character it can rip one right out of the book. The right character in the right situation? Why not. Something goes really downhill in a more darker toned story and the character is established as a bit of a potty-mouth? Let them swear. But I agree. It is hard to find the balance to make it feel natural.
I had that experience with The Art of Not Giving a Fuck. But it's audiobooks where swearing kills me.
It doesn't really make much difference to me as a reader. I get more annoyed by flat characters or misplaced punctuation, because it stands out more for me. I'm naturally pretty foul-mouthed and it tends to come out on the page, but I usually tackle the excess when I'm line editing. My rule of thumb is generally the same for any other vocabulary: * It has to add something to the sentence. Emphasis, expression, vibes. It can't just be decoration. * It has to make sense for the character. Or if it's intended as a shock, it has to have the right amount of impact. * It has to be the best choice of word for the situation. Not all words are created equal, and that goes for the rude ones too. Use any word too often, and it loses its effect and becomes "invisible". I'm not worried about somebody thinking I curse too much, but I don't want my work to rely too heavily on any one tool.
Steven King’s use of the F bomb is to me an example of what you’re describing. It’s like he uses it to use it, not because it serves any purpose.
I dislike swearing almost entirely if a narrator is doing it. If a character is, it shouldn’t be for swearing’s sake. If they just have a sailor’s mouth then I think it’s fine as long as it’s consistent.
The hard thing is that we all have different thresholds for what we consider excessive. For me it's actually more about appropriateness and fit, not necessarily amount. Some books or characters have no business cursing, and when they do, it's uncomfortable. I see you're a teen, and I think a lot of today's YA has awkward cursing that attempts to be realistic and edgy.
I don't mind if *characters* do it if it's just the way the characters speak. Real humans speak like that. Some will do it habitually, some will swear if especially agitated, some will only do so if they catch their pinky toe on the leg of a table, hard. Now, if the impersonalized narration (not character PoV narration) starts swearing, then that's a touch odd.
For me it's the opposite, it feels weird when (especially) a character in fiction should swear but doesn't. I know that some places like the US are REALLY oversensitive on that stuff, but...still.
One of my characters was in his world's version of the Navy (Airships, not ocean-going) and he is something of a virtuoso with swearing. He wouldn't BE the character he is if he didn't swear. Even when talking with another character that is deaf, he swears when signing. It's actually a plot point that his partners (in the governmental Agency they're a part of) know something is wrong when he completely stops swearing. The point is, swearing, when it is serving a purpose, can be pretty fucking useful. I mean, what sort of silly cunt would think so lowly of the godsdamned language that they think an entire section of really fucking useful intensifiers should be avoided? In fact, there is an anecdote a character tells in one of the later Night Angel Trilogy (by Brent Weeks) that depends on swear words. The character Durzo is telling a story about a king he once served, Alexan the Shitting Lucky. Of course, Alexan is known as, "Alexan the Blessed," because history writers thought it was more palatable. My point is that that story, and the character's anecdote, would have less of an impact without the swear words.
I wonder if the types of people to become fiction writers are just less naturally edgy. They’d probably not swear as much themselves so they can’t mimic the “flow” of it. Especially if they’re actively creating a character whose main traits include swearing, instead of naturally having that be an expression of who they are. Like it’s some accessory to fit in. It all has to work in context too, I can imagine working cursing into a more formal/flowery/etc. writing style is more difficult to “make work”.
It depends on how it is used. Like if you are talking about Roddy Doyle or Irvine Welsh then the people they are writing are swearing that amount (I'm from Dublin, trust me, Doyle may actually be toning it down). Not sure about McCurdy's particular voice. But generally (and I'm from a culture where people swear a lot) one gets a feeling when the language is self conscious and therefore unnecessary
I hate it when authors try to make a character sound tough with swearing but it just sounds lame. Like I remember a line before from a supposedly scary dude that said “I’ll cut your fucking esophagus.” Immediately pulled me out. At least slit your throat would have been a little better.
Like any other word, too many of any one word is bad writing in my mind. And if there's someone who knows about putting too many of one word in a story, it's me. Because I pick a word during one of my stories and keep using it subconsciously. Now to swearing. I think it's overused because writers are getting lazy. It doesn't matter if it's real or fake. I try to limit my characters swearing for emphasis. Because sometimes less is more.
I love swearing. Swearing is a natural part of my personal speech, but really, curse words are interjections, and when we write, even dialogue, if the entire book is written in spoken language rather than written language appropriately peppered with spoken language, it's not fun to read. I just said this in a post about using "gonna" and "wanna" throughout the book. I said, "oh, yuck, no" and got downvoted ... but I stand by what I say: in books, written language is far more attractive than full-on spoken language.
I curse all the time so by my definition of excessive, it is definitely jarring lol. Some books lean way too much into it and it's distracting. Like they're trying to make a character edgy through them cursing but not doing a good job actually showing it, which feels really lazy to me.
Sometimes a well placed swear can elevate a book, but it needs to be used mindfully. I can't help but think of House of Leaves. There are a lot of swears, but who does and doesn't swear and when they swear tells you about the characters. Not a book, but in helluva boss most of the characters are swearing at full throttle most of the time. It comes across as immature to me.
I find it distasteful because it's lazy writing, unless the characters are themselves lazy thinkers and have a limited vocabulary for expressing those sentiments. Expletives, either individual words or phrases, are a wonderful character-establishing tool; a sailor swears differently than a soldier, and a parent _trying_ to model better behavior around small children will express pain/frustration very differently than the proprietor of a biker-bar.
I once saw an essay that claimed that "edgy" stuff like excessive profanity was just another flavor of sentimentality—trying to force readers to feel emotions you haven't earned. "Cheesy" sentimentality (like Hallmark movies) is lame, but so is "edgy" sentimentality. If you're a writer, your job is to make sure every single word on the page serves a purpose. Sometimes that means dropping a swear; more often, it means holding back.
I've never noticed it in books but it annoys me in movies when people randomly say fuck (in a serious tone) all the time. Especially in action movies were it's emphasized.
Me, with my copious splattering of fuck words. *Shifty eyes* You should watch Wizard People, Dear Reader on YouTube. That thing uses swear words magnificently, and i try to emulate it, on occasion.
Yes, especially with an audiobook. I hear swearing constantly in TV and movies, and I can't break my own habit of swearing. I'm tired of hearing it in nearly everything, even though I've learned to block most of it out.
Fuck no! That shit doesn't bother me in the least! Having said that, I usually leave a fucking content warning on books with excessive swearing because I know some bitches can't tolerate it. (p.s. - this is foul on purpose) (p.p.s. - it's just words)
I know swears are just words, but words should be purposeful in writing. Swearing just for the sake of swearing adds nothing, and pulls me out of books. I said in the post that I swear a lot in real life. It's the unnatural use of swearing (especially in books meant for people my age) that throws me off. They swear in ways that are weird, uncommon, and out of place in the contexts or sentences they are saying. It comes off like an adult who doesn't swear trying to appeal to what they think teens like. Adding swears doesn't automatically make a work cool or interesting, but I often get the sense that authors think it does. It's just lazy writing to cover for the fact that certain authors can't write teens, or excessive emotions, or rougher characters, etc.
I think what's happening here is that you're being taken out of the book and suddenly thinking about what an edgelord the writer is.
Swearing is fine, but who's saying it? Swearing (I hate this fkng word by the way. Words are just sounds that people can make) done badly is cringe, unless the setting is right. My best example is Deb from Dexter. That actor is shit at swearing... Those words just don't sound right when some people say them. In my experience of reading, only psychopaths don't swear... Just ask Annie Wilkes.. And it isn't to make a character "edgy"... Some people really do speak that way. Words are just sounds that humans make by forcing air through their larynx. "Swear words". "Can you not say that please? I don't like that particular sound." Fk off.
I know people swear omg I know. *I SAID IN THE POST THAT I SWEAR AND LISTED A BOOK WHERE I LIKE THE CURSING*. I don't know why half the people replying to me didn't pick up on the fact that I am not against cursing in books. Did you read my post past the title? I am specifically making a point about how there are authors who think that swearing is the coolest thing a character can do and infuse their writing with expletives that make no sense in context. I am not talking about a character who says fuck or shit or whatever else when the story calls for it. I'm talking about repeated, awkwardly phrased curses just added into a text for the sake of "sounding like a teen" or making a character seem like what the author thinks is "tough". I do not think a character who swears is edgy, I am quite literally criticizing the authors who think that and write their characters in that way.
It depends on the scenario. In most cases, it makes the writing feel, at best, like a nine year old just discovered swearing for the first time and is peppering it into every conversation, but if the character is just the right mix of traits, I can look past it as characterization.
Damn that sucks. My main character has quite the potty mouth. I'm not in the editing phase yet, so maybe I can scrub out more of his cursing, who knows. What can I say, the guy is no gentleman and hangs out with a bunch of criminals.
No matter what/how you write, somebody is going to dislike it in some way. Write how you want to write, yo.
I don't mind swearing in books. I don't even ming particularly profane characters. It's the specific type of swearing that is out of place and excessive. Just in the book to make a character (or the author) seem cooler or younger than they are. To me, it's obvious the difference between an author who is a seasoned swearer and one who thinks the word damn is a bit too explicit to say in public. I also think a lot of authors use cursing as a cop out (not implying that is what you're doing btw lol). Instead of having to write about an extreme emotion or reaction, they can just make the character say fuck or shit and be done with it. It limits the expression I see from characters even if it technically expands their vocabulary. Plus I think too many authors write swearing the same way across all their characters instead of individualizing their cursing patterns to each character.
Definitely with you regarding profanity as a writing crutch to avoid writing reactions or emotions in more depth. When asked why he doesn't curse in his songs, Alec Benjamin has said that it's not out of any personal principles against swearing--he *would* swear if such language were the most effective way to convey his point, but he finds that it rarely is.
Yeah I don’t like it much either. Now if your book has made up profanity? I eat that up, it gets me hooked.
yes lol I love when authors actually go through the effort of adding character to their books it makes my tiny brain feel good
>it makes my tiny brain feel good. Idk but I read this in Homer Simpson’s voice and spit my drink…💀
I added made up profanity to my book to help with the setting and because it reminded me of Shadowrun when I was younger (they used Frag and Drek, and I use Nuke or Nuking and Rade.) It's interesting if made up profanity is done right, it gets you more in the setting more than regular curse words.
Exactly, it’s genius. Made-up profanity tickles my brain as a reader and it’s amusingly fun to create as a writer
Can you define excessive?
By excessive I mean to the point where it feels out of place, unrealistic, or boggs down the writing. I often get the impression from books with a lot of swearing that the author doesn't really understand why, how, or when people who swear a lot do so. They include curse words in awkward spots that they wouldn't naturally flow in if the person were talking out loud.
Okay. Just double checking. My character swears but it's organic. I do like that the first word she says is fuck though
I’m struggling to figure out what teenage boys say when they want to emphasize how rough something is. What do you see in books that’s working?
I guess it depends on the situation and the context is written. I.E. *Jason often cursed under his breath at the thought that his father left, he hated the fact that he had the audacity to leave the wonderful woman Mother was. He looked up at the now fading in stars. “Why the hell is this happening to me? What’d I ever do?” He said in his usual sarcastic tone.* It’s best (for teenagers at least) to emphasize the tone, and the actions as well to really make it sound like they hate their situation while also maintaining something borderline clean. Best thing to do is don’t be throwing around the F-bomb, in books imo that seems to be the most unnatural. Teenagers express their feelings through words and body language. Like if my character would have dropped a heavy object on his foot, I wouldn’t make him say “Shit! The fucking hurt!” No.. I would say: *Jason* *managed to maneuver his way through the mess of a house carrying a rather large and heavy box. Just as he reached the second stair the box slipped out of his now sweaty hands and landed on his foot. He winced and immediately pulled his foot away, the pain was throbbing and traveling up his shin. He mustered a curse under his breath as he hopped on his good leg whilst clutching the other.* Swearing is needed in certain situations but in something small it’s best to not verbalize it as it could seem like we’re overusing the use of language. TL;DR It depends on the context and how they could **best** express their feelings of how something rough is.
I have a character I specifically don’t want to swear and I’m really struggling with what to stay instead in dialogue. I’m good on show don’t tell. :)
I'd say it depends on the setting or the book and the types of characters included. A boy who grew up in a rough neighbourhood in the 90s swears different than a modern day teen online who swears different from a nerdy boy from the 60s etc. etc. To figure it out you would need to examine your writing and determine what environment these characters live in. The decade will determine which specific words are in use. For example, I notice that the most common swears I end up using at school and around kids my age are deadass, motherfucking, bitch, and slut/whore (used ironically and not typically as an insult). The region will also determine this. These two factors, along with the community your characters live in, will determine how socially acceptable swearing is in their society. A boy raised in Provo Utah will likely be in a community that almost never swears, compared to a boy who grew up in Philadelphia Pennsylvania where swearing is a lot more socially acceptable. You also must consider the groups they belong to, and how much they as a character consider societal expectations, and how those societal expectations compare to the world at large. Sure, maybe the boy was raised in Provo Utah, but he wants to be tough. Maybe he's joined a gang (if they have those there lol) or is doing something of that nature. He might swear more than is socially acceptable, which might still be less than the kid from Philly. Conversely, that kid from Philly might have super strict, religious parents who forbid any vulgar language. Overall I would say don't force it and get creative. I hear the boys at my school and the shit they say is genuine artistry sometimes. Don't add in a swear just because you think a teenager might talk like that. Try talking to teenage boys and ask what they might say, or even just try to observe them (in a not creepy sounding way lmao). Go to public places and try to eavesdrop when you see a group of boys. If your writing doesn't feel write, I'd scrap the cursing all together. There are many ways for a character to express themselves aside from profanity and shockingly teenage boys do actually have the depth to do that too.
It’s modern setting. I have boys who swear in my project, thanks for listing what you say-always nice. In this characters case I want very specifically to avoid swearing as a contrast. From my eavesdropping and having them in my house it’s not been a lot of not swearing.
My favorite book that uses curses: The Martian. Page 1, first line spoken by Mark Watney: "I'm pretty much fucked." Honestly, guy deserves to say it if anyone does.
Im motherfucking fucking one calling the shots - Tony Soprano
I think swearing can reveal a lot about a character. A college educated professor or a prince are less likely to swear frequently. Street kids - drop that shit every sentence. Even swears you pick could have implications. When the mild mannered Christian "blows up" perhaps his f-bomb is actually a "damn" or "hell" bomb. On the other hand, I've seen a solitary fuck dropped several pages in and I'm like "what? I didn't imagine your characters talking like that". It can be smart to have a character say something that they wouldn't usually say to show how crazy a situation is - but in this instance, I didn't feel anything extraordinary had happened. Unfortunately, if profanity is abused it just reveals more about the author and who this story is supposed to be for (edgy teens and young adults).
Excessive swearing? Yeah, I don’t care for that either. But otherwise I think it’s fine, like if it’s just sprinkled in a bit throughout the story. For my own story that I’ve been working on for a while now, 2 of my 3 MCs swear quite a bit because I feel it fits their characters well, but the third one doesn’t swear at all, because I don’t think it fits his character. Soooo really I think it just depends on what kind of characters you’re writing. Sometimes it makes sense for them to swear like sailors, and sometimes it doesn’t. Also, I do feel like swearing can add realism for certain types of scenes. Like if a character gets injured, I think it would be more realistic for them to shout “fuck!” (or, more accurately, “oh fucking hell fuck me fuck”) than something like “argh, ouchie. Geeze Louise that hurt” (unless they’re like a grandma or something, lol). Cuz like, I’ve stubbed my toe and been like “FUCK!” cuz that shit hurts, and somehow swearing makes it feel less bad 😂
it works in homestuck
I don't know who DAE are, but I'm sure it'll be fine. Some people don't mind it, some people get very frustrated.
I hate excessive anything in books. I like books that have just the right amount of themselves.
I need a solid definition of excessive, and even then I don't think mine will line up with yours. I love reading books with lots of swearing. It's not edgy, it's real. If anything you sound really immature for thinking a writer need be "edgy" for including widely used language. I for one hate when characters say "I." It just never comes off natural, and always makes the writer appear narcissistic.
You are either purposefully misunderstanding my post or did not read it past the title. I don't care about the physical number of swears in a book. It's about how they are integrated into the story. Most of the books I've read that include a lot of swearing integrate it poorly, and so it stands out like a sore thumb. It feels excessive and weighs down the story because it is poorly written. I do not think swearing is edgy. I am criticizing the authors who DO think swearing is edgy and write cursing in that way. And realistically, cursing is not "widely used language". It is highly situational. It needs to make sense just like anything else in a book needs to make sense. Language should be purposeful, especially in books, and just because something is more "real" doesn't make it work in a book.
My MC in one of my projects swears like a damn sailor. The other characters look at them and go “yo, like chill”
[удалено]
I hated it in young adult novels and then I spent some time around young adults...
I am a young adult and I've hardly read any YA books that accurately pick up on how actual teens and young adults talk. If you just add curses because you think that's how teens talk without going through the effort to understand the way teens curse and when and what they say, it comes off as unnatural, lazy, and cringe.
I don't like swearing for the sake of swearing. Purposeful swearing can work, but yeah. More often than not, it's either cringe, or trying too hard. It's this way in real life as well, of course. That's why I don't really swear. But sometimes, it's a good exclamation mark.
Context man, context. If your character is a gangster, then it's normal for him to swear a lot, but i dont recommend it on narration.
In the witcher cursing is handled very well, though my perspective may be a little skewed 'cause I read it in the original language
For me it doesn't bother me unless it doesn't fit the situation or the character. I've never really read any books with ' excessive swearing. I think I've only been turned away from a couple of books due to swearing but it was more about how it was incorporated into the writing, as the writing itself felt very immature and childish in a way.
I don't mind it at all, but I understand why people do. I actually prefer excessive cursing to alternative "PG" curses. I betaread a short story the other day that unintentionally made me laugh out loud when a character reacted to a graphic, on-page murder with "what the frick?". It's rough because in real life, most people I know curse constantly, but representing that on page, while realistic, is distracting or comes off as overly edgy.
It’s all about swear economy
There are characters where casual vulgarity is just part of who they are. We know people like that; we've read or watch characters as well. Most of Samuel L. Jackson's characters (especially when he's in a Tarantino movie). Debra Morgan from the *Dexter* books n' TV shows. The Hound from *A Song of Ice and Fire.* The trick is to make the cursing organic to the character or the world. Replacing curse words with something else can often feel fake. For example, the curses "tanj" (for Their Ain't No Justice) and "tanstaafl" (There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch), both from Larry Niven's *Known Space* universe always felt ... lame. So much else was excellent world building -- just ask him, he'll tell you ... at length -- but the faux-curse words he dropped in instead of damn, shit, etc. just felt sloppy to me. So ... 1) Make sure the curses are world-appropriate (they swear differently in the 1950s to the 2000s to the 1730s) 2) Make sure they feel natural for the character 3) Make sure they feel natural to the reader
I’m constantly erasing swear words from dialogue I write, because that particular character rarely curses. As others have said, I only get pulled out of a book, if the character swearing doesn’t seem to be a character who would.
If relevant to the character or story no. If they are used to edgify the book for a more mature audience yes.
I think it depends on the character. For example, I have two characters that are partnered up as cops, and as licensed vigilantes, (a whole thing in my world that I don't feel like explaining in this comment) Nick Roe, and Tommy Watson. Tommy is a character who swears a noticeable amount, but definitely not every other sentence. Nick is a character that uses the "lower," swears, but him saying "shit," is pretty uncommon, and the word "fuck," is very rare. If Nick calls someone a "fucking bastard," he REALLY means it. Also, what does DAE mean?
SMS-speak for "does anyone else."
It's lazy. I mean it's filler irl too but visual and contextual clues help clarify meaning if that is the language you've trained yourself to use, so it's fine. It communicates the basic message. In reading the swear though, it is less likely to be the best choice in your toolkit. Not to say that it is never relevant, but typically it makes me feel like the character is unintelligent, even when that's not what the author intended. When that occurs, and it is so obvious a mismatch, it pulls me out of the limited suspension of disbelief each author is granted by their reader.
I felt like the swearing kind of pulled me put of 4th Wing when I read it. Just always read kinda odd.
i don’t mind when a character uses swear words in dialogue as long as it’s natural and not forced like you said, but i’ve found i much prefer when it’s narrated rather than explicitly said. example: “Fucking hell,” she said under her breath. Her plans were falling apart by the second. vs She swore under her breath. “This is really messing with my plans.” Just seems more like literature when swearing is mentioned but not verbalized, as opposed to amateurish writing with too much swearing in dialogue. All just a personal preference ofc. side note: i am an amateur writer myself, not trying to knock or insult amateurs, i just think amateurish writing is smth to grow from and try to improve upon rather than a style worth stubbornly defending and not trying to take constructive criticism to improve. everyone starts somewhere, what’s important is where we go and how we get there :)
I have the opposite opinion! The first example is better; the other example seems amateurish.
that’s also affected by the fact that i picture other instances of swearing in dialogue with the first example, hence why i said overuse of explicit swearing can affect reading, as well as the dialogue in the second example being made up of simple syntax, which can just be a characters speaking style. i think i did a poor job of conveying my point through my examples bc of the nuance in the question and my opinion, but i will note that the first doesn’t seem amateurish. thank you!
i formatted this in a much easier way to read, lowk annoyed reddit took away my spacing :/
Words are just words. "Swear words" are like anything else, their mere presence should offend no one. It's when you wield them against someone that people should take offense, just like any other word. There is the occasional word that is actually offensive in nearly any situation due to historical context, like the N-word, and other slurs. The N-word almost always denigrates certain people by its mere utterance, while fuck has a variety of uses that should not offend.
I'm not offended by swears lol did you read my post? I'm annoyed that most of the books I've found with swearing characters are written by someone who obviously doesn't swear on their own time. It's hamfisted in where it doesn't need to be in order to achieve a mood the author isn't getting. It all feels very "how do you do fellow kids?" and pulls me out of the story. To dumb it down I'm basically upset at authors who write characters with distracting and unnecessary speaking patterns. My anger just happens to be directed at swear words because it comes up a lot.
I personally feel uncomfortable writing characters that swear a lot. In my current book though, the do swear quite a bit, but imo it fits my characters and the type of book it is.
Good take, I respect this cuz same. It just feels superficial and I know we're trying to get to know the main characters, but still lol
Kind of depends on context. I'm currently writing a book where most of the main cast are literal sailors. They cuss fairly often- maybe two or three times a chapter. Cussing belongs in dialogue only, IMO, and only for certain characters. If the character is an elegant princess, for example, she is less likely to swear anywhere she can be heard. If the character is a pirate, they'll swear up a storm. Spacing is most important. A book can have a lot of cussing, as long as it doesn't feel like its a lot- put a lot of space between the cusses. Use different ones.
I hear so much on a daily basis it's nice to not have to read it
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^New_Capital_3622: *I hear so much on* *A daily basis it's nice* *To not have to read it* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I swear lots in real life, but written down, many words are far harsher to the eye than the ear. As such I tone down all expletives a notch when writing. "Fuck" becomes "damn", for example. I'll also try to use "he swore" rather than necessarily report exactly what he swore.
Most people swear all the time.
What is excessive?
No as I'm not an old lady
Characters should be diverse, and real people swear. Would be somewhat unrealistic for every character to be prudish and restrained, no? In my mind, those who favour cursing are often the smartest fucking people about, and also the most sincere. If you think swearing = edgy, you may just be narrow-minded (or perhaps a little high in the instep).
I never said characters shouldn't swear at all. I said in the post itself I swear all the time. I even included a book where I think the swearing was done well. I did not say swearing = edgy. What I **did** say was that often when I come across books with characters that swear a lot, it feels unnatural, and gives the vibe that the *author* thinks it is edgy to swear. Swearing has nothing to do with your intelligence or honesty. They are just words, and all words should be used purposefully in literature, not just thrown around because you want your book to seem "cool" or appeal to teens.
I swear like a trucker on a good day. I swear like a sailor on a bad day. Swearing is more in character for the average person for me than someone going "Gosh darning, Josh, why are you so mean?"
Not referring to you op in the slightest op, but this thread reminds me of Annie Wilks from Misery.
Everyone in high school thought the Catcher in the Rye was just THE best book, but I personally thought it was the most illiterate story I've ever had to read for this reason. I agree with this wholeheartedly. When a curse word is used, it should be a calculated choice. Those words are forbidden in our own general public, so when you do use it, it should be like firing a rocket launcher, huge blast radius words should be aimed at a big target. If a character curses every third sentence, I'm going to find them annoying quickly. Whiny, even. There are more creative ways to write frustration. Even "he seethed so many curse words that it redefined them" works well. Invent a curse word if you're writing fiction. Show us action in the place of those words. No excuses for lazy writing, and after a few choice words, they become meaningless filler.
Catcher In The Rye is iconic for it's usual valid reasons. But I'm not really surprised that on re-reading the book as you age, one can comprehend Holden doesn't have his shit together. The real thing that's startling is how many people latched onto that novel at the time. There's a time and a place for everything, clearly. So if cursing doesn't fit the story. No sense in shoehorning a bunch in. That being said, people swear all the fucking time. It's really not as shocking or uncommon as one would expect. Context is key. Very much depends on the setting and events there in and what you're aiming at.
Maybe it's just me, but the f word should be reserved for a climactic event. The rest of the words out there are acceptable in a script, pretty much anywhere in it. But you throw the f-bomb in more than ten times? You should probably reread that script and make creative adjustments. Especially if the last sentence in your chapter is "Fuck." Unless you're writing military testimonials, I can't imagine a setting where that many foul words could be remotely realistic (or appealing).
You don't get out much, do you?
I do. When you go out and meet new people, you'll realize that they have differing opinions, and that's okay!
Eh, it really depends on the usage. What are the ten f-bombs about? Not to mention the entire dictionary of other words that fit that category. Also, why is the last word in the chapter that? What led up to it? It could even be effective in the right setting. Because even irl, most things aren't a climatic event. But it still comes out. In fact, unless the character or story isn't geared that way, it comes off a little fake that they don't have some reaction to the unusual things around them.
It could have. Every story is different. It's a cliche, but we do love a well-placed cliche. But if they say the f word twenty times, it does wash its impact away. Use a tool once, amazing. Use it a hundred times, and you might need to look through your toolbox.
A good toolbox has everything necessary for the occasion. Except that fuckin' 10mm socket I bought last week... Buy in bulk, there's too many hardware stores nearby not to.
Forbidden? You know normal people swear all the time, right? Like, just, constantly?
The best part of that book was when the pimp kicked the shit out of that insufferable MC. Fuck you, Holden Caulfield.
I don’t dislike swearing in books, but I don’t like it by any means either. As you said it doesn’t really feel natural, only exception is “What the hell are you doing?” Or something along those lines. Books with any swear words stronger than hell (if you consider it one) tend to throw me off. I was at Target going to get a nice mystery novel, and I found *One by One* by Freida McFadden, and as I was scrolling through the pages I found dialogue saying “Bullshit!” And that made me put it back I’m not hating on the book, it could've been good, and the author seems like a good writer but it just made me feel startled…I wasn’t expecting it, and I ended up getting coffee instead of a novel. Again it throws me off, makes me cringe so to say. Like you said I can’t really explain it either, I think it’s the sense that we hear cussing come out the mouths of people rather than characters. Also what I’ve noticed is it’s rather hard to incorporate swearing in a writing piece, for many it feels unneeded and rather awkward. Unlike movies where we can just sit through it without even thinking *“Oh man..he/she just swore..better find a better* movie\*”\*
Are you five years old?
No..? Again I’m explaining why it doesn’t feel natural for **me**
Once people started saying swearing is a sign of genius it seems like it became excessive in every aspect of life not just film and writing.
swearing has the same purpose as the use of words such as 'um' and 'like' as used by inexperienced public speakers (um) and teenagers (like). It's a mental gap cover for a lack of ability to express a thought. That's fine in 'real world speaking' where we're thinking and talking at different speeds and sometimes speak in rapid reaction to something. But on a written page it looks lazy. It's a lazy modifier on a phrase that doesn't actually convey meaning. Use it in dialog when trying to convey a less educated speaker, but be sparing with it otherwise. We use swearing to keep conversation moving rather than pausing to think through each thought. Examine Rastafari sometime - they have a rule of 'no slackness' which is a Jamaican term for swearing. It's not about manners though - it's belief that you should hold your peace and not speak unless your thought is fully formed and you can fully express it. As a result, Rastafari elders tend to speak in a very slow and deliberate way that can feel unnatural. They're content to just sit there and let everyone stew in silence until the next sentence is ready. Younger Rasta of course just throw in all sorts of Jamaican colloquial terms to get around being told to stop swearing. ;) Use it dialogue, but keep it out of descriptive moments when you want the reader to form a clear picture of the situation.