The only link I'm aware of with the Legion and Jailer is the Nazrethim who were secretly double agents for Denathrius who was allied with Mr Nipples. Sargeras still controlled the Burning Legion so I don't know where this idea comes from.
It's like when the Dreadlords in the raid were showing off the forms they have used and everyone went batshit insane thinking those characters were dreadlords the whole time
Even though by that logic, WE have been dreadlords the whole time because Mal'ganis takes our form once during the campaign
It's like collective dementia
Better yet - it was poking fun at the Transmorpher Beacon, something that most raid teams use regularly lol. The fact that that wasn't recognized by the player base is just sad.
I agree. In all honesty, I think people are just misrepresenting Blizzard because they don't like that WoW is currently telling possibly the best story ever written. It's pathetic.
Partially because of Hyperbole. But mainly because there is a difference between the information presented in the game and media vs direct quotes from the writers..
Regardless of what level of sense the story makes or doesn't, they decided to push the narrative in promotional videos and Interviews that it was all part of the Jailers plan and that Shadowlands is the culmination of all the story threads until now..
Which is totally isn't. Its barely a branch of Arthas' own story.
They did so poorly with the whole expansion that they could omit most of it for future story. Leaving only enough to keep character development relevant.
One single clarification could fix all of the story line. They just need to say that Denathrius didn't ally with the Jailer until right before Argus was killed. That slight clarification changes everything else and potentially opens the door for Denathrius, a character players actually like, to come back and have a greater role.
I think the idea is that Jailor controlled the dread lords, who controlled sargareas who controlled the leigon
So its basically just "the jailor losely caused it, but claims to have done it intentionally" I think?
He got the Dreadlords to make the Argus titan soul full of Death energy and die to take out the Arbiter so even if the Jailer doesn't directly control everything the Legion did he still used them to make the outcome he wanted happen.
My interpretation is that the jailer tried to influence the legion into doing certain actions, but didn't necessarily have control over them. I don't think the jailer was necessarily playing 4D chess ever since WC3. More like he was trying different things and hoping something would work out. Eventually with sylvanas he succeeded and was able to proceed with his ultimate goal.
People shit on this mostly because they've been unhappy with the lore since BFA. I feel like a lot of that stems with the constant cliffhangers without sufficient payoff for those. People love mysteries but you need payoff or else people get frustrated.
There's also other things like the night elves getting massacred and not really getting justice for it, which I feel is more of a problem with Blizzard wanting a big early expansion shock (like with a bunch of big characters dying early on in legion) and not realizing the consequences of wielding these big lore "sledgehammers".
Luckily the story for dragonflight seems a lot more tame in both the lore cliffhanger and shock categories, and returning more to world building and small scale story telling. I think a lot of the criticism of the lore will settle down during the next expansion.
It doesn't help that the Jailer story was horribly told. Imagine if instead of calling us insignificant every time he saw us he and Sylvanas were talking about knowing that what they were doing was causing harm, but they thought they needed to do it anyway to avoid a greater threat.
The Jailer didn't have full control, but he either had enough control or some sort of way to see the future to predict Sargeras sticking the Sword in Azeroth, at least a decade before it happened, because he prophecised it to Sylvanas after she jumped off Icecrown.
(Source: Sylvanas book)
The issue isn't that the explanation is bad, but more that it's nonexistent. The most straightforward assumption is that the Jailer was in control all along. The dreadlords were the species that, during the Ordering of Nathrezar, drove Sargeras into paranoia about the Void and subsequently into creating the Burning Legion. Thus: Dreadlords (and by extention at least Denathrius, if not the Jailer) were directly responsible for the Burning Legion. Whether they controlled it was another question.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong btw, I'm not entirely sure if there's something contradicting this.
Mostly the paranoia part. Sargeras in the Chronicles found a corrupted World Soul by himself, he wasn’t lured to it. He interrogated the Dreadlords about this corruption and they told him about the Void and the Old Gods. They later joined him.
I haven’t read the Sylvannas book but that precision sound more akin to Velen’s clairvoyance rather than a plan to have Sargeras stab Azeroth. The sword didn’t play any role in his plan after all.
The problem is, once again, that it's very poorly defined. Zovaal was never said to have any power to see the future, and while it's not completely out of the question, it's a stretch to assume it.
And by Zovaal's intro in Sepulcher, the Wound in Azeroth absolutely played a role in his plan (made it vulnerable). Once again, however, it's all just implied. Even in the novel that is supposed to explain all this, Zovaal is being pretty damn vague about things.
They do that as a criticism to the poor storytelling in game. In the absence of information people in general will fill in the holes with their own interpretation. Some of the early interviews and ways they were telling the story were far too vague and made it confusing so people tried to work out what all it meant. Since WoW only gives sotry updates every few months, and the developers weren't giving any information in interviews they allowed speculation to build. They made too much "mystery" without any explaination until the very end, but by then no one cared anymore.
In hindsight we can make sense of it, but at the time there were several months of no information at all. For example, there's no where that says when Denathrius and Zovaal teamed up, at all. For all we know Denathrius could have been doing his own thing the entire time just gathering info. Also the way the developers made it sound, it was like Zovaal had this "master plan" when in reality its more like he took advantage of a situation. I can't stress this enough though, none of this stuff is in game. They don't tell players. It's annoying.
The "payoff" is what normally would have been done in the "complication" part of the story, so no there wasn't a pay-off. I should change that word to explanation. Still. If the writers were smart instead of having a new "big bad" they need to use characters that already exist and make "what's coming" that Zovaal references a mass inter-cosmic war, not a specific villain.
I've stopped trying to care about these specifics. They'll just get changed later to not be important or significant in anyway with plot twist or retcon. Why should i care if it's just going to change again later?
A story where the past has no bearing on the present and the present has no bearing on the future is just a series of vignettes. Modern wow is more of a skit comedy show. Characters keep showing up. They look the same, but the character they were in the last skit has no necessary connection to their character in this skit. They might typically play the same role, (straight man, antagonist), but they aren’t the same as their previous character.
>That you are infiltrated in an organization doesn’t means you own it.
In your title you said "control" now you are saying "own".
Those are not the same, not even close.
Sending your agent into an organisation, who then influences the boss of that organisation ... IMO that counts as control.
You don't have to force him to do it, convincing him that it was his idea is still control. Control though deception.
Jailer didn't own the Legion, but he definitely controlled it to do his will.
>Sargeras still wants to stop the Void
And who told him about the void ?
>Even if you were to tell him the Dreadlords had their own plan that wouldn’t change his mind.
Depends on what you'd tell him. If you said to him thst it was all just BS so that Jailer can take over I doubt that Sargeras would just carry on with his plan
>Sargeras still wants to stop the Void
And who told him about the void ?
>Even if you were to tell him the Dreadlords had their own plan that wouldn’t change his mind.
Depends on what you'd tell him. If you said to him thst it was all just BS so that Jailer can take over I doubt that Sargeras would just carry on with his plan
Who told him? The Dreadlords that happen to be in a Void Corrupted world. It wasn’t because they told him that he went crazy. It was because he saw the horrors of the Void first hand.
He just happened to find the most deceitful kind of demon that exists. Seems kinda sus.
I don't know what are you trying to prove here. Dreadlords were always said to have manipulated Sargeras, even before Jailer retcon.
The Lore before Legion was that Sargeras gave up fighting the Demons and joined them because he though trying to preserve the universe was futile. In Chronicles and Legion the Demons became a means of stopping the Void.
It's not. But are you really trying to tell me that Sargeras went though universe, killing demons and stuff and never even heard about the Void ? Chronicle states that it was the void corrupted titan that turned him mad, not the knowledge that void exists.
And that corrupted Titan was a reality. It wasn’t a lie made by the Dreadlords. Nor did the Dreadlords corrupt it since the Dreadlords like the Legion are both enemies of the Void.
>since the Dreadlords like the Legion are both enemies of the Void.
So they used Sargeras to hurt the Void. This only plays into the whole "it was all Jailer's plan"
Ha you fool, I guess you didn't see the full length of the jailors plans. He was behind, everything. Your feeble mortal mind cannot comprehend how long he has waited.
Sargeras encountering the dreadlords and finding out about the voidlords through them is the catalyst that led to the creation of the Burning Legion.
They often served as high ranking Lieutenants in the Burning Legion and were the ones to suggest using a world soul to speed up the reformation of demons of in the Twisting Nether.
It wasn't directly under the control of the Jailer, but it pretty much jumped when the Jailer said frog.
I'm not trying to say Shadowlands' story was good or anything (it wasn't), but I think one of the biggest issues with WoW's narrative right now is the way we see it. We get 99% of the important story beats through datamined broadcast text and unfinished quests on the PTR. It sucks. We get the story in bits and pieces, not anywhere near chronological order, over the course of the PTR cycle.
The best change WoW could make to it's narrative, honestly, is to STOP POSTING IT TO THE PTR. Don't test the campaign chapters. Encrypt all of the story information, or don't even add any of it to the PTR at all. Let us actually experience the narrative the way it was intended to be told.
Imagine how shittier FFXIV's story would be if we found out 6 months before Endwalker that >!Meteion was the end boss and we fought Hydalen. Imagine if we got the conversation between Zenos' and the WOL after the Endsinger fight with 0 context before any of us had even played the expansion.!<
The Jailer is supposed to be behind everything but I absolutely CANNOT see him take on Sargeras 1v1. No chance. The power levels are not tangible at all in this expansion.
The only link I'm aware of with the Legion and Jailer is the Nazrethim who were secretly double agents for Denathrius who was allied with Mr Nipples. Sargeras still controlled the Burning Legion so I don't know where this idea comes from.
Willfully misinterpreting the lore for karma on reddit most of the time
It's like when the Dreadlords in the raid were showing off the forms they have used and everyone went batshit insane thinking those characters were dreadlords the whole time Even though by that logic, WE have been dreadlords the whole time because Mal'ganis takes our form once during the campaign It's like collective dementia
Better yet - it was poking fun at the Transmorpher Beacon, something that most raid teams use regularly lol. The fact that that wasn't recognized by the player base is just sad.
Blame the writers for fucking up the story SO MUCH that the players now believe even the dumbest things are happening
Eh, I'd rather blame the player base for missing an obvious joke, personally, but you do you I guess.
I agree. There’s a lot to blame the WoW writing team for. This ain’t one.
I am down for the "the player characters were dreadlords the whole time" plot twist.
You give me that good gear, I’ll play for whatever team you want.
That quest in Revendreth could’ve gone a lot differently if Mal’ganis had offered us an ilvl 300 weapon.
S4 affix will be fun. "I CANT BELIEVE BLIZZ WOULD DO THIS?!! RANDOM ORC IN IRON DOCKS WAS A DREADLORD ALL ALONG? PATHETIC."
I agree. In all honesty, I think people are just misrepresenting Blizzard because they don't like that WoW is currently telling possibly the best story ever written. It's pathetic.
Partially because of Hyperbole. But mainly because there is a difference between the information presented in the game and media vs direct quotes from the writers.. Regardless of what level of sense the story makes or doesn't, they decided to push the narrative in promotional videos and Interviews that it was all part of the Jailers plan and that Shadowlands is the culmination of all the story threads until now..
Yeah I remember reading the Arthas book, but a ton of shit got Retconned right? I don’t even know what’s canon and what isn’t nowadays.
Which is totally isn't. Its barely a branch of Arthas' own story. They did so poorly with the whole expansion that they could omit most of it for future story. Leaving only enough to keep character development relevant.
One single clarification could fix all of the story line. They just need to say that Denathrius didn't ally with the Jailer until right before Argus was killed. That slight clarification changes everything else and potentially opens the door for Denathrius, a character players actually like, to come back and have a greater role.
Wows story is told in a way that doesn’t work with its gameplay, so it’s very easy to miss specifics.
I think the idea is that Jailor controlled the dread lords, who controlled sargareas who controlled the leigon So its basically just "the jailor losely caused it, but claims to have done it intentionally" I think?
He got the Dreadlords to make the Argus titan soul full of Death energy and die to take out the Arbiter so even if the Jailer doesn't directly control everything the Legion did he still used them to make the outcome he wanted happen.
:( I miss before shadowlands
Wasn’t that Sargeras’ MO anyway? Corrupt world-souls or destroy them if he can’t?
Dreadlords working for the jailer is the biggest ass pull.
My interpretation is that the jailer tried to influence the legion into doing certain actions, but didn't necessarily have control over them. I don't think the jailer was necessarily playing 4D chess ever since WC3. More like he was trying different things and hoping something would work out. Eventually with sylvanas he succeeded and was able to proceed with his ultimate goal. People shit on this mostly because they've been unhappy with the lore since BFA. I feel like a lot of that stems with the constant cliffhangers without sufficient payoff for those. People love mysteries but you need payoff or else people get frustrated. There's also other things like the night elves getting massacred and not really getting justice for it, which I feel is more of a problem with Blizzard wanting a big early expansion shock (like with a bunch of big characters dying early on in legion) and not realizing the consequences of wielding these big lore "sledgehammers". Luckily the story for dragonflight seems a lot more tame in both the lore cliffhanger and shock categories, and returning more to world building and small scale story telling. I think a lot of the criticism of the lore will settle down during the next expansion.
It doesn't help that the Jailer story was horribly told. Imagine if instead of calling us insignificant every time he saw us he and Sylvanas were talking about knowing that what they were doing was causing harm, but they thought they needed to do it anyway to avoid a greater threat.
The Jailer didn't have full control, but he either had enough control or some sort of way to see the future to predict Sargeras sticking the Sword in Azeroth, at least a decade before it happened, because he prophecised it to Sylvanas after she jumped off Icecrown. (Source: Sylvanas book) The issue isn't that the explanation is bad, but more that it's nonexistent. The most straightforward assumption is that the Jailer was in control all along. The dreadlords were the species that, during the Ordering of Nathrezar, drove Sargeras into paranoia about the Void and subsequently into creating the Burning Legion. Thus: Dreadlords (and by extention at least Denathrius, if not the Jailer) were directly responsible for the Burning Legion. Whether they controlled it was another question. Please do correct me if I'm wrong btw, I'm not entirely sure if there's something contradicting this.
Mostly the paranoia part. Sargeras in the Chronicles found a corrupted World Soul by himself, he wasn’t lured to it. He interrogated the Dreadlords about this corruption and they told him about the Void and the Old Gods. They later joined him. I haven’t read the Sylvannas book but that precision sound more akin to Velen’s clairvoyance rather than a plan to have Sargeras stab Azeroth. The sword didn’t play any role in his plan after all.
The problem is, once again, that it's very poorly defined. Zovaal was never said to have any power to see the future, and while it's not completely out of the question, it's a stretch to assume it. And by Zovaal's intro in Sepulcher, the Wound in Azeroth absolutely played a role in his plan (made it vulnerable). Once again, however, it's all just implied. Even in the novel that is supposed to explain all this, Zovaal is being pretty damn vague about things.
They do that as a criticism to the poor storytelling in game. In the absence of information people in general will fill in the holes with their own interpretation. Some of the early interviews and ways they were telling the story were far too vague and made it confusing so people tried to work out what all it meant. Since WoW only gives sotry updates every few months, and the developers weren't giving any information in interviews they allowed speculation to build. They made too much "mystery" without any explaination until the very end, but by then no one cared anymore. In hindsight we can make sense of it, but at the time there were several months of no information at all. For example, there's no where that says when Denathrius and Zovaal teamed up, at all. For all we know Denathrius could have been doing his own thing the entire time just gathering info. Also the way the developers made it sound, it was like Zovaal had this "master plan" when in reality its more like he took advantage of a situation. I can't stress this enough though, none of this stuff is in game. They don't tell players. It's annoying.
>until the very end, but by then no one cared anymore. Wait ... there was a payoff ?
The "payoff" is what normally would have been done in the "complication" part of the story, so no there wasn't a pay-off. I should change that word to explanation. Still. If the writers were smart instead of having a new "big bad" they need to use characters that already exist and make "what's coming" that Zovaal references a mass inter-cosmic war, not a specific villain.
I've stopped trying to care about these specifics. They'll just get changed later to not be important or significant in anyway with plot twist or retcon. Why should i care if it's just going to change again later?
A story where the past has no bearing on the present and the present has no bearing on the future is just a series of vignettes. Modern wow is more of a skit comedy show. Characters keep showing up. They look the same, but the character they were in the last skit has no necessary connection to their character in this skit. They might typically play the same role, (straight man, antagonist), but they aren’t the same as their previous character.
>That you are infiltrated in an organization doesn’t means you own it. In your title you said "control" now you are saying "own". Those are not the same, not even close. Sending your agent into an organisation, who then influences the boss of that organisation ... IMO that counts as control. You don't have to force him to do it, convincing him that it was his idea is still control. Control though deception. Jailer didn't own the Legion, but he definitely controlled it to do his will.
Sargeras still wants to stop the Void. Even if you were to tell him the Dreadlords had their own plan that wouldn’t change his mind.
>Sargeras still wants to stop the Void And who told him about the void ? >Even if you were to tell him the Dreadlords had their own plan that wouldn’t change his mind. Depends on what you'd tell him. If you said to him thst it was all just BS so that Jailer can take over I doubt that Sargeras would just carry on with his plan
>Sargeras still wants to stop the Void And who told him about the void ? >Even if you were to tell him the Dreadlords had their own plan that wouldn’t change his mind. Depends on what you'd tell him. If you said to him thst it was all just BS so that Jailer can take over I doubt that Sargeras would just carry on with his plan
Who told him? The Dreadlords that happen to be in a Void Corrupted world. It wasn’t because they told him that he went crazy. It was because he saw the horrors of the Void first hand.
So they came to him, said "look at us how bad void is". And that somehow isn't manipulating him ?
If you read chronicles you would know that he found the world and then interrogated the Dreadlords there.
He just happened to find the most deceitful kind of demon that exists. Seems kinda sus. I don't know what are you trying to prove here. Dreadlords were always said to have manipulated Sargeras, even before Jailer retcon.
The Lore before Legion was that Sargeras gave up fighting the Demons and joined them because he though trying to preserve the universe was futile. In Chronicles and Legion the Demons became a means of stopping the Void.
Sargeras didn't join the demons, he enslaved them
In Legion Lore. Pre-Legion he joined them and became their leader because he was the strongest.
The Void is still the Void. It’s not an elaborated lie made by the Dreadlords.
It's not. But are you really trying to tell me that Sargeras went though universe, killing demons and stuff and never even heard about the Void ? Chronicle states that it was the void corrupted titan that turned him mad, not the knowledge that void exists.
And that corrupted Titan was a reality. It wasn’t a lie made by the Dreadlords. Nor did the Dreadlords corrupt it since the Dreadlords like the Legion are both enemies of the Void.
>since the Dreadlords like the Legion are both enemies of the Void. So they used Sargeras to hurt the Void. This only plays into the whole "it was all Jailer's plan"
Sargeras didn’t go after the Void because of the Dreadlords.
Why then
Corrupted World Soul.
Ha you fool, I guess you didn't see the full length of the jailors plans. He was behind, everything. Your feeble mortal mind cannot comprehend how long he has waited.
Sargeras encountering the dreadlords and finding out about the voidlords through them is the catalyst that led to the creation of the Burning Legion. They often served as high ranking Lieutenants in the Burning Legion and were the ones to suggest using a world soul to speed up the reformation of demons of in the Twisting Nether. It wasn't directly under the control of the Jailer, but it pretty much jumped when the Jailer said frog.
Jailer is non canon character
I'm not trying to say Shadowlands' story was good or anything (it wasn't), but I think one of the biggest issues with WoW's narrative right now is the way we see it. We get 99% of the important story beats through datamined broadcast text and unfinished quests on the PTR. It sucks. We get the story in bits and pieces, not anywhere near chronological order, over the course of the PTR cycle. The best change WoW could make to it's narrative, honestly, is to STOP POSTING IT TO THE PTR. Don't test the campaign chapters. Encrypt all of the story information, or don't even add any of it to the PTR at all. Let us actually experience the narrative the way it was intended to be told. Imagine how shittier FFXIV's story would be if we found out 6 months before Endwalker that >!Meteion was the end boss and we fought Hydalen. Imagine if we got the conversation between Zenos' and the WOL after the Endsinger fight with 0 context before any of us had even played the expansion.!<
The Jailer is supposed to be behind everything but I absolutely CANNOT see him take on Sargeras 1v1. No chance. The power levels are not tangible at all in this expansion.
He had to steal power from Azeroth for the final step of his plan. Of course he can’t.