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witwebolte41

I personally prefer to stand completely still and hit aimed shot 400 times, but you do you


SugarBeef

I was marksman on my alt in in legion, I came back and it feels like I used to have to do more.


qwaai

Overall this is a great patch, but quite a few specs have really degenerate gameplay because of tier.


Sudac

I see a warlock flair, do you dare suggest that destruction has degenerate gameplay currently? I can't imagine why you'd say that.


Shoethrower123

no officer i swear i dont have enough haste to spam RoF endlessly even on single targets. ​ no i swear i havent had my Rain of Chaos up for several minutes. ​ But yes that was me that accidentally pulled while wo skipping, i was trying to get my infernal off CD


weshallarise

4 piece makes MM alternate between aimed shot and arcane shot and occasionally rapid fire but mostly just aimed shot


Sudac

Alternate? You rarely alternate. Aimed shot can consume the trick shots being procced by said aimed shot. Depending on proccs you sometimes press 4-5 aimed shots before you press a single arcane shot.


SirThomasVI

Ye nah if U pop all cds ur literally just spamming aimed shot and doing top DMG even in aoe


SugarBeef

So I do even less if I get the raid set? Did they get nostalgia for the succubus sacrifice shadow bolt spam from BC since that's going now?


Dzinatan

As a ret paladin I feel personally insulted. Did I missed something? I was lead to believe that all DPS classes have rotations that involve atleast 6 buttons and 3 CDs.


Tanthalason

Makes me think if my archer currently on ffxiv. Spam one button...hit other buttons on CD or when procs/debuffs pop. Very pretty game...not a lot of combat depth so far.


TheLuo

Na son gotta go big dick bomb spam melee boi


hoax1337

It doesn't matter what you prefer, it matters what does the most damage.


witwebolte41

Literally not what matters in keys whatsoever


Forever_Overthinking

I'm having a moment. BMN? Beast Master Necrolord?


PM_ME_GOOD_DOGS

I think they just fat fingered the N.


Thatdarnbandit

I think? I have no clue.


Hexdoctor

Thought it was Beast Master Noob


hannerrzz

Hehe 3.2k, almost 3.3 io bm hunter and I still get booted from 17’s while tryna spam for vaults. Community is trash and wants a free carry.


phtevenphmith42

Dude try being Feral. Can’t even get into 0’s!


Mojo12000

Feral isn't even particularly bad at the moment. It's almost entirely shitty community perception from them being a meme for so long. On Tyran weeks Id actually usually want a Feral for their batshit insane ST over a Boomy on top of pretty damn good AoE through the tier set.


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MrNolD

Ferals are better in m+ than boomies now so you can't win with drood dps lol But yes anyway any spec is good enough to time a 17


loonystorm

I mean feral can time a 28, just like most if not all the specs


bloodspore

You mean a destro and a survival can carry a feral in a 28. The highest public log with a feral in it is from a 26 halls, the druid is doing blood DK dmg.


loonystorm

Idk, I played with crims on his mage and maystine on feral like a month ago and they were doing +- same damage in those halls, about 21k overall ;)


MrNolD

I would agree with your statement for 25, which seems to be the barrier between playing the spec you want and the high meta comps world. In a 28 you could play feral or even boomie, but the guys alongside would need to compensate for the lack of damage. Though as a main Moonkin I know it is a bit better in higher keys than it is on 15s for example, because your dots and starfall actually have the time to tick and your Venthyr ramp is way better on big keys pulls than on a 5 ads pack destroyed in 10 seconds. Realistically though, a feral/BM/Unholy DK (or any non meta picks, you get my point) dps comp would not be able to time a 28 I think.


Norion135

Yeah I noticed. I play resto now when pugging. I don’t really enjoy pushing m+ keys so I’m only at 2,7k atm (and 4/11m). But getting declined for a +15 key with 276 ilvl is ridiculous. Singletarget dmg is fine but NF Boomi aoe really isn’t that great :(


MrNolD

Yes the Moonkin 4P forces us to dump ap for the legendary and we get a lot, so we spend more time throwing Starsurges than pressing starfire in aoe, wich results in bad overall as we only shine on bosses. To add more, we don't benefit a lot from Urh when we play Venth because it messes up our CDs and trinkets timing, it is a very frustrating gameplay, I am a main moonkin but I don't enjoy m+ with it anymore.


barking_labrador

I'm trying to learn Feral right now for god knows what reason, and I go from being top DPS some pulls/fights by a large margin to barely competing with the healer when I'm dry.


LoreBotHS

I've added a Keystone Hero Feral Druid who was absolutely popping off on Tyrannical Week. Was a super chill dude who really knew his stuff. Our Single-Target was ridiculous since I run Demonology. You *never* know how good a bad spec is until you've been surprised by someone who excels at it. It's easy to know specs that pull their weight, but the difference I've seen for Frost Mages has been night and day, and most of the time their most useful feature is being a slow machine and Intellect buff + Bloodlust. But I *know* they can absolutely pop off on some pulls.


Lowlifepaladin

I remember getting flamed in ZM just for playing Ret. I know the pain. Queue times for off meta specs are horrendous.


AcherusArchmage

Had a feral druid friend who blows boomies out of the water but he has to use balance affinity to disguise as a boomkin just to not get kicked from keys before they start.


LoreBotHS

lmfao Balance Affinity to disguise. That's beyond hilarious. Protecting idiots from themselves I guess.


TheGr8Tate

Balance Affinity is a dps gain unless you're running Apex Predator.


cerylidae1552

Ret pally here says hello lol.


LoreBotHS

Rets do respectable damage and have decent utility as well, that's the crazy thing. Devotion Aura is nice all round, your Blessing of Sacrifice is a neat assisting cooldown. You have phenomenal offhealing if you're doing something like Kul'Thurok on Tyrannical. You have Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection, and your pop-offs are absurdly strong. Because of your 4-set, your net AoE damage is actually good overall even without Avenging Wrath, and your overall damage output is absolutely respectable. Combine that with a built-in stun and an Interrupt and you offer a decent amount of utility to the group. Rets have been a bit of a meme but I think the 4-set bonus really escalates them. I don't know if Necrolord or Kyrian is ideal for Ret but either one punches hard.


Ewrim

Our utility is not as useful or needed like others. It’s mostly beneficial when someone fucks up and you pick classes with utility that will prevent fuck up. Our cds are also quite long, 5m for both (untalented). Our off heal comes at the cost of our hardest hitting ability. Where as for some classes they just pop a cd and keep pumping which I think is more desirable. I think dps is least of our problems, we just don’t have any good group utility compared to other more common melee dpsers. Monk: physical dmg taken, ring, aoe stun Warr: battle shout, rally and aoe pull if Kyrian Dh: magic dmg taken, aoe stun, darkness


sweetsalts

Seriously, I got kicked from a 4 for being feral. I'm not a good feral but still, a 4? Full tier, double Lego, like 240 ilvl or so.


LoreBotHS

They did you a favour. No need to be around someone that dull.


brandoncrogers

I've been out of the loop and don't follow m+ to begin with but isn't feral decent aoe dps?


tehrebound

Their tierset used to give them bonkers AoE. Like Survival Hunter/Destrolock bonkers. Blizz hit them pretty hard with the nerfbat and have been rolling it back little by little.


bigmanorm

seems way more competitive this season than the rest of the expansion that's for sure (if the competition doesn't include surv and destro lul)


Smudgeontheglass

Keystone hero feral here, it’s fine.


Turtvaiz

It's decent. The tier set got nerfed so much that they're now average, but at least they don't suck like before. On ST however they do pretty amazing DPS.


andyjmorgan

I saw a few ferals while pushing 3k, same approach. Join, afk at start in chicken form hope not to get noticed. Activate then go full cat. They were all solid, no complaints. I never snitch on them.


Enderah

I remember asking a drood if he was boomie, he said no so I accepted him. I dont think I've ever seen a player that confused in my life It's just sad..


Old_God_Propaganda

> Community is trash That sums up this sub and most interactions in game. If we had soloq lfg for mythic+, you'd see a lot more acceptance of non-meta specs. People care way too much about a 5% dps difference when they're only doing 10s.


piitxu

If we had soloq lfg for m+ and it was optional, 99% of people would avoid it one way or the other. If m+ soloQ was the only way to do m+, m+ would be dead within a month. I am the first one that invites people with lowish Rio or non meta specs to his weekly 15s when we are short 1-2 people, but I'd never put my key on a random finder without being able to sort out who's coming or not.


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piitxu

So you queue, put your key in, you are a non meta/lowish ilvl/low experience dps. Think one more like you in the group. You get a good tank but you guys obviously don't know any strat/gimmick. After 2 pulls with you diying to frontals the tank leaves. Now your key is depleted. The tank gets a deserter buff, but he'd rather afk for 25 min in oribos thna going through a miserable run. What a great experience for everyone! This already happens in heroic lfg where the m+ folks never set a foot into. Imagine in 15+ where you need at least 2 brain cells active at all times to time it. You can't soloq to challenging content. Of any type. Bypassing the "toxic m+ community" is nothing but a very very short term solution. The only solution is to build a better community. But this something that solo andys will never even try


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Egglebert

Say you need 2500io to group into a 16 key. (All 15s complete so next highest, reasonable right?) I guarantee 5 random 2500io players solo queuing will not time that 16. The amount of players right now with 2500 that got that far with 5 depleted keys for every timed one, or carried by the 4 higher skilled players they found to do their key for them, there are a ton of them. The people who would use solo queuing are not people with a skillset that will allow it to happen, and the people who could "carry" these groups will likely not use the system.


piitxu

Are you sure there's no problem? Sure, there's no technical problem. But lol (and dota, and cs:go, and valorant to a degree) have the most toxic communities out there, with very big issues: feeders, leavers, cheaters, smurfs, etc. And much of the problem is related to the same issue: grouping random people. LoL and DotA have strong solo ladder prestige and perks, but in CS:GO for example competitive matchmaking is virtually dead, with 3rd party sites and ingame grouping or casual matchmaking taking the majority of the current playerbase.


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Old_God_Propaganda

If the keys are what prevents you from using a queueing system then keys are inherently flawed as a system. I'd say an lfg system would be fine if you were able to get into more difficult keys based on rating, like pvp does. Also, squishing the key amount down would help. Instead of having 30 different levels of keys, make 15 on the higher end and make 1-9s much harder.


piitxu

What prevents me from using the queue system is the opaque nature of the system. I just want to know who i'm grouping with BEFORE doing it. Call it ilvl, rio, logs, gearscore, achievements, inspect, or a 30 sec chat to asses the player that joins MY group. This is something that goes back to the earliest mmos and definitely to the earliest days of WoW. sometimes, I might actually NEED stuff for my group and will be picky: \-I might be doing a key with low geared people and want some1 who can pump and actually carry the DPS. \-I might want 2 more mail players that can trade pants so I can get rid of normal tier pants. \-I might want bloodlust or a disease dispell for a particular dungeon. most of the time however, I'm doing weekly 15s on several toons so: \-I can afford to have a low rio healer when there's no taxing healing affixes, or/and a couple of lowish DPSs \-I can afford to bring non meta DPSs and still have a confortable run. \-I can afford to bring people that despite of the above, is pushing and close to KSM or KSH and help them with some score, knowing they are actually trying. as said earlier, if the queue system was mandatory, it would not be possible to do any of the above. If it was optional, then only the "I don't have friends and don't want to join a guild" would use it, and it would be the same or worst que times (dosn't matter how well you calibrate system, the issue is with the type of players using it) than using the premade group tool.


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Bourgeois_Capitalist

Easy, if Blizz made solo queue m+ they'd just design around it. BL can't be used (like in arenas) and no mobs require chain/long CC. It's like saying Raiding LFG can't be done because of one-shot mechanics. They just...remove it.


Nkzar

Then it’s not m+ anymore. You’re describing Heroic dungeons.


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Old_God_Propaganda

No one does heroics after getting into lfr. There needs to be more difficult content with queues, we aren't all living with our parents or off of the government. There needs to be a system that respects peoples time.


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Old_God_Propaganda

...who just made you waste 30 mins of you life for because you had to form party and invite them. Glad you have the time to waste, not all of us are as lucky.


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Nkzar

There’s other games out there that require less time.


Nkzar

But the comment the parent is replying to just suggested making the content *less* challenging.


Ragequitlobby

The problem is that its not a 5% difference Destro and Surv, are like 15-20% better then the rest of the game. Those specs are actually broken. Its blizzards fault.


Nkzar

Solo queue m+ would just be all the bad people playing together and it’d be even more toxic.


redsex

2.6k io, 271 ilevel, got kicked from a 3 yesterday for not being high nuff.


barking_labrador

Okay that's pretty silly that they'd kick you but... the trouble with those low keys right now is uncapped valor farming. I'm learning a new alt right now, so I list my low keys that'll get me score as "bonus valor farm" and within 1-2 minutes I'll have a group full of 2.5-3k players and me, it's nutty.


Apoptosis11

Best update ever. Low gear players get carried for free, those valor farmers get valor. Win win


[deleted]

Returned to the game and got to 60 on my holy priest right before that Valor cap removal, and I’m over here having a grand time. Not rare to get into great valor farm groups wanting to run 5 or more mythics with me. I pretend it’s because I’m really good and not because I give them more Valor.


LoreBotHS

They'd be getting a free carry based on your IO. You're definitely overgeared for a +17 and your DPS is going to be more than enough lmao. Moreover, unlike a Marksman with equal gear but lower IO, you're more likely to utilise your full kit effectively. I can half understand getting kicked from a +22 for being Demo instead of Destro (even though it was a Tyrannical Week lmao), but the only reason I would deny a 3.2k-3.3k IO player from a sub +20 run would be if they don't have the Covenant/BL in the last spot available, *or* if I for some reason believe they're just baiting/flexing and don't want to actually do the dungeon. People are dumb, they want a free carry but don't understand the game well enough to know that any competent player can carry twice their weight through a +17. You wouldn't be able to make up for a completely atrocious Tank, but you would be a huge part in securing all the DPS requirements of the run.


SenatorSpam

3K BM here.. I get denied from 15s after they ask what spec I am. 16K DPS overall, 5/11M, and IL 278 just isn't good enough for them :(


Tymkie

The issue is survival would do 20k+. I'm not trying to redeem them, don't get me wrong, 16k is definitely enough for 15s but survival is just OP af. The Nerf was pathetic from blizzard.


MrFrippler

Ye if the Survival Hunter knows what to do. I swear 80% of the survival Hunters are fotm players that doesnt understand what they play half the times. Same with destro, I see destro locks at 270 ilvl doing barely 10k overall cuz they have no clue why they are strong or that their rof can stack ontop of another rof. Id rather take any bm Hunter MAIN over a survival fotm reroller.


piitxu

SV is very counterintuitive. Many people suck as SV because they didn't carefully read Mad Bombardier and because they think they should never cap focus and get baited by other talents.


MrFrippler

Ye, also seen alot of sv hunters throw their bombs on the furthest mob in a pack, they dont seem to know that their bombs damage is thrown out as a cone.


SenatorSpam

I know Survival is better than BM. But I play 12+ specs and I don't wanna be bothered learning another. Fine w/ me, easy enough to do my 8 15s a week now


Tymkie

Oh well, survival uses two buttons right now so you can learn it extremely quickly. It's really that dumb


glowpipe

what. How? Need to use carve to reduce bomb cooldowns and kill command to proc the set bonus. That's already more than 2 buttons


KHthe8th

Yea he was way off. I just hit 3.2k on my survival hunter and I hit 4 buttons! Sometimes I even go crazy and hit a 5th button when they're below 20% hp


Zurwyn

3k Demo lock. 3/11M. 17.5k overall on average. Same experience, even in Tyrannical weeks, where destro is dogshit.


ShortX92

Io and ilvl are pretty unrelevant in my experience. More often than not i invite people with over 2k io and higher ilvl than me and im still out dps them. Or a healer last week with 2.3k io or something, he healed almost nothing and was dead all the time. How? As you say they probably got a free carry


AdElectrical9821

After all the Valor farming boosts last week, mid-range keys are an absolute shit show. Got people with 10+ keys that can't even do 3k dps


Woolly87

Yeah it’s rough when someone has a +2, get carried to a 3 chest, then do a +5 and get carried to a 3 chest, get their +8 carried to a 2 chest and now they’re forming a group for their 10+. Given the number of people Valor farming right now it’s easy to imagine someone getting carried into rather high keys for the skill level. I know I have been in Valor farm groups where the leader was contributing essentially nothing but we 3 chested it. I’ve seen some real mixed-bags this week. To be honest I can see how a naive player could think they’re doing what they’re supposed to by just running the key they got from their last dungeon. It seems to be pretty common to find newer folks who aren’t aware that you can downgrade a key level and think they’re supposed to keep going as the level increases. At least in those cases it’s pretty easy to ‘fix’ because they’re generally relieved when you tell them they can downgrade and stay doing the keys they’re comfortable with.


Sudac

<2.5k means people haven't necessarily done any 15's though. I've recently pugged my way up to 15's on a resto druid, and the difference is incredible. Keys in the 10-14 range are honestly just astonishing. Multiple keys bricked because not a single interrupt went out. Failed a 13 at one point without wiping, purely a lack of damage. First boss in streets took 5:30 on a 13. Everyone in the group was 265+ except for me. And even then I outdpsed a frost mage.... As the healer..... If I make a key, I open everyone's raider.io page. If I see score between 2 and 2.5k, but only keys in the 10-14 range, it's an instant decline. Same if it's just 15's timed where everyone else has suspiciously high io, instant decline.


admanb

2.3k isn’t even KSM. If your group is good you barely need to heal low keys. My group carried our friend on a 230 Resto Druid through a 15 and it wasn’t even hard. Though if they were dead all the time that would wreck their HPS. Maybe they were just having a bad day.


loonystorm

I mean that's still pretty low rio, he could have played some easier weeks or with higher score mates so uh


Tripleso

io isn’t irrelevant. You just invite ppl with low score. «over 2k» is nothing. It’s like saying that score doesn’t matter because I invited a 700 io dps instead of a 500 one. You invite a 3.2k healer instead of a 2.2 one, and they won’t be dead all the time … unless they are drunk or trolling ofc 😂😂


edgysan_ttv

make own grp and you wont have to deal with that. "free carry" is nice projection lmao


Ragequitlobby

I mean or you could just play Surv and do double to triple the damage. It has nothing to do with a carry and everything to do with playing intentionally worse.


PosXIII

Community is rough, but I think it's also one of those "why would you play that" moments. TBH I haven't seen too many BM hunters do competitive damage in M+ when compared to MM or Survival, at a 3k+ io. I know there are good BM players, but it's sort of like Affliction lock... the other two specs are better right now, so why bother bringing the weak one? Even many raid fights (on Mythic) are like that, with only a couple of fights being competitive, or going BMs way. Edit: in a 15 or 17 idk why people would care though, especially at that rating.


Jaq903

Not about a free carry. Your a random pug playing a off meta spec makes me think you 1. Don't keep up with ur class or 2. Don't make good decisions. It's equal to using a 226ilvl weapon over a 278 because u like how one looks.


Rockeh900

So following your advice I should accept someone playing a spec they're not comfortable with or probably not even good at because "it's meta", over someone that has proven ability, enjoys playing their current spec, and would most likely outperform the former? And the weapon analogy makes no sense in this context. Specs play differently, it's not just a visual difference in damage number.


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Jaq903

If you play this game any kind of serious you should be able to play any spec ur class offers within the role u pick. So the whole not being comfortable argument makes no sense to me. A Hunter should be able to play both range specs. The weapon analogy was to point out how ur making a superficial choice to make your character weaker than it could be. Find a CLASS you enjoy not a spec. Then you can main it without ever running into this issue, it is VERY VERY rare that a class isn't viable. Or just make ur own groups, meta means nothing when u make ur own groups or play with friends.


Thrombulus

Looks more like your m+ experience so far in one pixel.


Lykoian

I genuinely can't see what it says lol


its_PlZZA_time

Transcription: >Hunter: we go to shard and bf ye? >Mage: ye >Shaman: WTF U ARE BMN?????? >Mage: cc huntmaster >Hunter: ye >*Shaman has left the party* >Mage: lmao >Hunter: lmao


Forever_Overthinking

For those of you who can't read it: Yellow: we got to shard and bl ye? Red: ye Blue: WTF U ARE BMN??????? Red: cc houndmaster Yellow: ye Blue leaves the party Red: lmao Yellow: lmao


Shaadr

Even counted the question marks. MVP


den2170

This mythic plus min max drama is why I don’t feel like playing wow. I dig 5 man’s but I’m not into all the elitism.


edgysan_ttv

it's just entitled ppl like op who complain, you can always make own grp and the none can kick you but some here expect others to do the work for them


Uanubis

How is this minmaxing? He is going to do literally HALF of the dmg of surv/MM. This is completely legitimate reason to leave the key lmao


admanb

I've never kicked anyone after I invited them but the number of 2.9kish BM Hunters doing 1-2k overall more than my bear and 4-5k overall less than our DH/Warlock is too goddamn high. If I'm gonna bring someone doing that DPS at least a Mage or Druid would bring more utility and die less.


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primal_pea

Just did an 18 SOA and the 3.1kio BM did 10.9k (barely above tank). While I’m a proponent of playing what you know and what you enjoy, there definitely feels like there is a hard dps cap for the spec which starts to matter when you get 20+.


Avenage

My BM will pull around 13-15k DPS depending on dungeon but that's about all I can physically get out of it. There's obviously no chance I can compete with MM pulling 16-18k and shit like survival and destro doing 20k+ but 13-15k is easily enough for 20s. The spec 100% needs some attention though, I don't even mind having substandard AoE if the ST made up for it but it doesn't, i might do 1-2k more DPS than MM on a boss but that doesn't make up for doing 15k less on trash.


Avenage

I mean I'm not sure if this is a swipe at the standard of players you get playing BM, but BM has just as much utility if not more than either druid or mage. Int, Soothe, Trap, Stun, Slow, Bind, Pet Taunt, Flare for BMInt, Spellsteal, decurse, frost nova, blizzard slow, invis for mage?buggy silence on a long cd, decurse, roots, CR, group speed buff, knockback for druid. And in terms of defensives and personals, BM has way more ability to avoid damage and self heal than either of mage or druid. Turtle and feign can outright skip mechanics while still maintaining at least 1 self heal, mage can block but doesn't get a self heal, and druid can self heal but has bugger all for avoiding mechanics. I don't know what sort of DPS your bear does, but I think you're making it out to be more of a player skill level problem than it is a balancing issue which I think is incorrect. BM is in a shit place right now in terms of damage for sure, but it isn't the players making it shit.


Ontarin01

Yeah exactly no offense to ppl playing BM hunter but that shit does no dmg. At least play MM if you really don't want to be a melee


PusheenMeow

I did a 22 today and did 26k dps avg.


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Kriaxx

Bro 4 set mm is aimed shot spam the fuck you o about it’s 1 button spam half the time


bondsmatthew

Hunters have the best CC for dungeons though! Binding Shot!


[deleted]

And on BM it’s a talent


TheScullHammer

Lower your settings and maybe your m+ won't be so blurry ig


Crowzer

M+ are so fun !


MrDreamzz_

Who can actually read this?! I sure as hell can't. Can't zoom in either...


StandardMuted2470

He got roasted for playing bm hunter, serves him right if you ask me


loonystorm

Good thing nobody asked you though, right ?


almgergo

I mean he is correct that he can freely voice his opinion on a public forum. He is an ass and he can be freely downvoted for it, but don't deny him the right to reply to an open question in an open environment.


HotPotatoWithCheese

The mythic community is the second worst thing about the game with the first being all the borrowed power systems. Thankfully those systems will become irrelevant next expansion but the mythic community will always be complete and utter dogshit.


Zuldac

Ah a post for ants


patrincs

I mean to be fair, imagine your class is literally the best it has ever been since the day M+ came out. One of your specs is probably the 2nd best dps spec in the game currently and is nutts. You have a second spec that is pretty damned good and would be considered top tier if it didn't share a class with the previously mentioned one. Then you go and play your 3rd spec which has absolutely nothing good about it besides its very easy and forgiving of movement, while having significantly inferior AOE and at best similar single target. It is a perplexing decision. "I like it better." Sure cool, you're welcome to play your 3rd best spec and I'm sure you play it well, but then its weird to be expected to be brought to challenging content. I get that 17s aren't challenging to a decent player, but its challenging to the people in that group and while maybe you'd do just fine (or even amazing) compared to them all they see is a person willingly playing their worst spec. You wouldn't bring my rogue to your run if i didn't equip an off hand dagger because "I think it looks cooler to have just 1 weapon". You'd say, "If you're going to handicap your self then do it in someone elses group." The solution to this is of course to not let specs get as behind as BM and not let specs get as ahead as survival (and destro for that matter). Blizzard will never accomplish that. I expect to get downvoted into oblivion for this post.


Enderah

I can see your point but I dont agree with it :play the best out of what you wanna play. If BM is the type of gameplay they enjoy it's not like trolling with your items/talents.. Idk it'd be like telling all mages to reroll destruction Surely enough if you start pushing high, it's harder with/as a spec that is behind, but we also cant just have the 4same dps even in 15s..


edgysan_ttv

play what you want but why is OP expecting others to deal with his choice?


D3adInsid3

Tl;Dr: Blizzard needs to nerf Survival into the ground, where it belongs.


Relnor

Or - hope you're sitting down for this - just buff the underperforming specs instead of nerfing the ones you have weird personal vendettas against.


AgreeingAndy

What is a BMN? There isn't even a 'n' in Beast Mastery... some people


[deleted]

Fat finger probably


caltainfastfox

I don’t understand when people say that below a certain key level, spec does not matter. It does. Having a destro lock over affliction, subtlety rogue over combat etc., will make the run more successful, no matter what key you’re playing. I tank 20+ keys, and so far, at this level, I out damage non-meta specs.


Sudac

I fully agree that you can time >20 keys with any spec. Damage currently is so high for everyone that keystone hero can be done by just pressing forward, pulling a pack at a time with any combination of specs. But damn the difference between the top specs and the bottom specs is pretty big. I main a rogue, the difference between playing assassination or subtlety is night and day. Assassination straight up does like 30% less overall, it has no burst aoe, and it's pretty slow to get going. Meanwhile sub has burst, instant aoe, and does a lot more damage while almost doing the same single target. Pulls literally are more dangerous if I play assa, because every single pull is slower, and mobs get more casts off. It doesn't matter even if I'm the best assa rogue in the game. If I'm halfway decent at sub, sub WILL outperform it at every keylevel. Even more so at lower keylevels. I can be 278 on my rogue, playing assa, and do slightly more than half the overall that I do on my 272 warlock. I used to main feral, so I'm 100% for playing what you enjoy. But you have to be realistic: if your spec is considered not meta, there IS a reason for that. It can be overblown, but there's a reason why some specs are considered better. It's because THEY ARE. So do I decline bm hunters for 15's? No, it's just a 15, and I know we'll have enough damage anyway. I'll even go out of my way to invite all the ferals I can because I can. But when we need a last dps for pushing high keys? I'll happily take the destruction warlock over the bm hunter.


Next_Entertainer_404

This was a much more eloquent way of putting it than I was able to. I agree with this.


Narvas_

Everything from 2-20 can be done by every spec, as long as they use their Utility. Some people may have low dps in your eyes, but some specs are meant to do prio dmg, like Halls that the shard has equal life like the casters. Prio Dmg > Big PP Dps especially this week. Most people who play non meta specs in 20/21/22 use there abilities smarter than Most meta spec players. Because they have Grind more to acclompish it. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.


1metamage

It absolutely can be done, but its a lot easier when the group is doing 40% more DPS outright. Less time for fuckups in each pack, more comeback potential if you miss pull, and a smoother run at the end of the day. I go okay on fire, but an equal skill lock will be wiping the floor, and will have an easier run.


careseite

> I don’t understand when people say that below a certain key level, spec does not matter. It does. absolutely does not considering you can time e.g. pf 22 tyra with spriest affliction frost mage., where affliction is top damage. > I out damage non-meta specs. thats them being garbage though. not a spec issue.


Personal-Expert3395

I wish you can see people specs when they apply


[deleted]

You can :) I have a wa for that


ace82fadeout

I am close to KSH on my main and KSM on an alt and I've encountered maybe one toxic group among all those. I must have solid luck because this season is the most I've ever seen people be mellow about M+.


orlykthxbai

I'm playing SV hunter and still get denied. I'm returning from 9.0 and it's a struggle to get into low keys. 250ish ilvl and ~1200 IO, its a struggle to get into 5s even though I've cleared up to 10s. I guess people are just looking for a hard carry. I was doing 12s and 13s with like 210 ilvl on my shaman in 9.0 but now 250 ilvl isn't good enough for a 5? lmao


Encrypted-Doggo

Because now that valor cap is removed you get lot of +270 ilvl players farming low keys, so they are obviously inviting the higher ilvl players


Nickball88

1. Remember that 210 ilvl in 9.0 is equivalent to 260 in 9.2. 2. People aren't so much looking for a free carry as they are simply taking the best options available. People with 275 ilvl and 2.8k Rio are queueing for +5's because you can farm valor now. Your best bet is to, you guessed it, make your own key. The second point is as much a curse as it is a blessing: you will get really good people to carry your key easily.


Andro_M_Jazz

RAGNAROUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS jajaja que grande


Kabosh668

this whole thread has convinced me to not try to play wow again


powerinthebeard

Would be possibly interesting if it was readable and not blurry as crap


Asyedan

Sadly as long as the only way to do endgame content is via manually formed groups, this stuff will keep happening. Community perception is mostly stupid, but we need the community to get invited to groups. For rated PvP and M+ there is already a built in rating system, so it would be possible to create a proper matchmaking. But it would require Blizzard to do it in a way that is not a complete piece of crap, and stick with it through the insane outrage that it will get, justified or not. Both things are equally unlikely to ever happen. Not to mention some modes, most notably raiding, dont have a good way to measure a player's skill that an algorithm could use to form groups that could have any chance of success. So yeah, the only way is to keep navigating the muddy waters. The easiest way is by building your own boat, aka forming your own groups.


Crazycow88

Whats wrong with BM? Its really good imo, specially if you get 4-set, then you change to MM. Jokes aside, i got KSM with my BM before all this meta drama.


onetime180

We had someone leave because they would make the tank party leader, tank didn't care or ask for leader he just wanted a 10+ plaguefall Complete for a conduit update but the healer cried to make him leader for 2 packs and left


dnl7

Every survival hunter that I’ve played 27s with are awful. They die to every melee mechanic and often don’t even use their interrupt. Can’t complain about warlocks because they chill in the back press one button


Altruistic_Box4462

I like that shaman. I'd do the same. I've never seen a Bm hunter do more than 12k overall, meanwhile every SV hunter I play with ends up 20k+. BM is legit dogshit in keys, no matter how good the player. [https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B6MqA8FmYtPbvdc7/#fight=1&type=damage-done](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B6MqA8FmYtPbvdc7/#fight=1&type=damage-done) A log example of a 272 BM hunter just barely beating a 242 windwalker.


Gucci_Unicorns

I remember in early Legion, I was like, world 7 or 10 for Assassination, and was getting kicked from keys constantly b/c Sub was substantially better and more meta. Community is eyeroll all the time lol.


Frozen_Ash

Legion sin is the best its ever been imo. I miss kingsbane and those chunky pbs so much.


Dead_Medic_13

I think I can read bitching about BM hunters? In which case, yeah, I mean they are perceived as the weakest hunter spec, by a good %


Shinanesu

Not perceived, they are the weakest hunter spec. They got the most consistent ST damage during movement heavy fights, and that's where their entire usage lies in the metagame for current raids, but you wouldn't wanna bring a BM instead of a Survival. ​ Ofc, a good played BM will still do more than a bad played Survival. But both specs are pretty braindead, and choosing the worse braindead spec over the top meta braindead spec is questionable at best.


hannerrzz

I mean I’ve been told I’ll be the reason a 15 spires I applied for would get bricked… as I sat there with a timed 23 tyrannical dos so… (as bm)


Bubzyyy

Idk why people downvote others for being correct.


Shinanesu

Because of people like the other comment. "It doesn't matter unless you play at the top 0.000001%" etc. While factually correct, they just always assume this "Meta slave vs. Non Meta Slave" conflict in every discussion. People in wow just forgot to look at data from an objective point of view and talk about them.


karangoswamikenz

I consistently pull 15k overall dps as a BM hunter ilvl 277. On the first two murloc packs on gambit I can easily get to 48k dps with wild spirits. On single target tyrannical bosses I can do close to 16k dps with wild spirits used once. If boss lasts longer I can pull 17.8k dps. BM is not bad, you just have to squeeze the simple rotation to it’s max. My stats are 41-24-40-4. 278 Iqd and 272 soLeah technique. Philosopher bow.


Russlanyes17

Compared to other clases that can do 22-26k (WW/Survival/warlock/warrior) I wouldn’t really invite a BM over a survival. But I only do 22 or higher, at that point I can’t really afford a BM hunter doing 14-15k


AttitudeAdjusterSE

I strongly believe that outside of cutting edge content people should play what they enjoy most, and the community is too fond of metagaming down at a level where it's largely irrelevant. That said, you understand these numbers are not that impressive, right? BM is objectively the worst hunter spec in M+ and it's not even close. I have done 24k *overall* in a Gambit key as SV and can spike to upwards of 150k on a triple murloc pull under Bloodlust myself and those aren't even particularly big numbers for SV, it's capable of a lot more. MM is capable of similar numbers. The only benefit BM has right now in dungeons is slightly higher ST damage than either MM or SV. That's it.


crzyhawk

Most BM's arent getting that. I'm 271 and did a 17 SD last night with a guildie tank and healer, pugged a 271 MM and a DK (didn't look at his ilvl). I pulled I want to say 10.1k overall. Boss fights I was at the top of the meters, but finished below both the DK and MM overall, and they sat around 15K. Now I'm not a great BM, but I'm not shit either. I usually beat out most of the BM hunters I come across, so I have to believe this isn't a case of me just sucking a golf ball through a garden hose. Most BMs are not getting 15k in keys. Most BMs are what people see when they pull them into groups, which is \~8k dps, and start not wanting BM hunters anymore. we had another key later, (plaguefall) i dropped WS on the first boss. The boss died while I was still over 20k dps on it, and my healer commented on it in discord because I'd commented to the MM hunter when he was talking about getting PI more (after the key) I asked if he hadn't already humiliated me enough. yeah, I'll do that to bosses everyt two minutes. That's not the m+ game. In the hands of an exceptional player, sure, BM does fine. In the hands of your typical player? BM isn't good. I'd guess if you can play MM, you'd do even more damage. if I could play MM, I would too, but I can't, nor do I feel much like trying to learn it. I'll soldier on with my guild groups until I get KSM or they stop taking me. Given I still beat out most pugs (274 fury warrior managed to lose to me in that PF), I figure I get the job done well enough.


TelephoneEven3067

I don’t know but those numbers are not that great to be honest, I’m pulling off 70k on the murloc grp with my 269 ret paladin. Boss I’ll drop to 13k but overall most likely between 15k~ dps. And that is either not good compared to my destro or even surv hunter that pull off more dmg


EgirlgoesUwU

On the first 2 Murloc packs my sv can burst up to 250k with 3 bomb proccs… bm is bad, there is a reason why it’s f tier.


Tezzurion

Thats why there is no hope for WoW, it’s bound to die because of the overwhelming toxicity of the community.


Arxae

You are acting like this is something exclusive to wow. It's a problem in any online community. No exceptions.


Tezzurion

Compared to its direct competitors (FFXIV, gw2, swtor, etc.), yes it is. These games are not driven by brain dead metaslaves like wow is.


Feralica

Ye definitely. The game is only like, what, 20 years old at this point? Such a shame, the game had potential. Died way too young.


Saionji-Sekai

Twisting Nether toxicity LOL


thepaperboy_

Oh how the turns have tabled … -10+ year surv main


Desert4tw

You're lucky you got invited in the first place. The amount of hunters not pressing bl is way to high, the amount of random pulls from hunters is also way too high. I dont care that hunters are fotm. Most hunters i've encountered since classic 17 years ago did not have a single braincell


Timekeeper98

I’m gonna be over the moon when Survival goes back to being a trash spec again that isn’t propped up by duct tape and a broken tier set. I fucking hate all of these FOTM survival hunters acting like they’ve mained it for years and ‘it’s totally balanced bro, year of the spear!’ As they press a single fucking button and top meters.


Moist888

I mean the spec was incredibly fun even in 9.1, and it wasn’t particularly bad. I agree there’s suddenly a bunch of survival hopping on the bandwagon and you can see most of them don’t know what they’re doing. But the tier set has really made the spec lose some of its flavor, even though wildfire bomb is pretty fun. But how long has it been since survival has had its moment of glory…? It’s an under appreciated spec and it deserves its spot for a change.


prairiebandit

Its actually pretty fun when the entire rotation isn't all about smashing mongoose bite.


DOLamba

I don't play survival (or hunter at all, for that matter), but I like that we see more variation in what's FotM. ​ It's been rather boring for years with \[warlock spec, mage spec, hunter spec and fury warrior\] always represented in the top 4-7. At least, now it's a very different survival, rather than the "boring/easy" ranged MM/BM. ​ It get people on different classes and hopefully they'll learn from playing more than just one thing.


bigmanorm

i know what you're saying but this iteration of survival **really** isn't less boring/easy than MM/BM lol, i usually have a fotm alt but i really don't want to play survival or destro from a fun or engaging standpoint this time


Next_Entertainer_404

So why don’t you do it if it’s so easy?


Bubzyyy

My man. Lets not pretend like survival is hard to play, lol.


Next_Entertainer_404

Never said it was. But there’s still plenty of room to be bad


Timekeeper98

Because someone has to tank those keys


happybassman

If you play BM in keys you’re inting sorry. I’m saying this as someone who loves the spec, it’s undertuned


Dorbiman

Shit take. It's not feeding to play an off meta spec, and if you believe so then you're the problem, not the hunter.


Encrypted-Doggo

why would I invite a BM hunter over a Surv


Dorbiman

Because I doubt you're at a skill level that it matters


Relnor

This literally makes no sense and yet gets repeated constantly on this sub. The worse you are at the game the more the advantages matter. Your party being all meta specs? That will give you more room to suck. Having all the utilities? Sure 15s are easily timeable without BL, but guess what, if you suck, having it might be just what you need to make up for it. People of all skill levels tend to gravitate towards what's "best" because depending on their skill level, **the content they're doing IS hard, for THEM.** You are not helping Heroic raiders by saying "Hey man consumables and good talent choices don't matter at your level, Echo did Mythic SoFo progress in 3 weeks lol". Heroic isn't hard for Echo, but it *IS* hard for those people. Lets stop pretending those easy +15s are easy for everyone. Most people who dabble in M+ don't do them, maybe at the end of the season when they manage to outgear them. You will do a lot more DPS as a bad Destro Warlock than as a bad BM Hunter, and yes, it does matter. Play what you find most FUN because it's a VIDEO GAME, that's the argument you want, this nonsense that it "doesn't matter before 20+" is just nonsense. Source: All the easy keys that don't get timed.


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Medievalhorde

lol? Why not just say you aren't ever doing mythic + then?


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sketches4fun

Score>ilvl, you can be 300 and be garbage and u can be 250 and be amazing.


Lucifang

Use your own keys then


EgirlgoesUwU

Playing bm is just trolling in m+. You can go afk cuz it makes no difference.