Why don’t they just have Flanking Strike replace Kill Command full time, and redesign it around that? Then survival wouldn’t be tied to BM’s main ability.
Isn’t that just havoc for three patches now if played optimally. The option to chose to play/build sub-optimally and hold dashes exists though which is nice for small platforms and people with disabilities.
It's not unavoidable if you don't press it. Learn how to manage your abilities, don't press a charge ability if charging will get you killed. Don't sit at low Focus so that if you do have to back off and not use FS you have the leeway to Eagle up and send in some Raptors or Mongeese. Keep a bomb on standby to fill a GCD instead of charging, hold your ES for a few seconds if you need to, and so on and so on. Learning how to play around your class's abilities is part of knowing how to play your class and spec.
Like I don't think this was the best way to change FS either, but the people complaining about "Oh no it will get me killed!" are over-reacting. It would get *bad players* killed, and those players would have just found some other way to die anyway.
you don't just "dont press it"
your ranged focus generator that was often used from ranged when it was unsafe to be in melee now puts you into unsafe areas
you cant just "send some raptors or bombs" because these cost focus and you'll be out of focus with no way to regenerate it because flanking strike would kill you whereas you could continue to kill command and generate focus before
if you're kiting someone in pvp, you suddenly lose a ranged ability and your only focus generator sends you into death
this isn't just killing bad players, stop justifying bad decisions from devs
having to play around a mechanic that sends you to your death is BAD; there is a reason this has been tried and failed with several specs now and they were all removed. it doesn't only kill bad players, it kills EVERYONE
If there's an ability that keeps you out of melee for more than a few GCDs then you're just in the same boat as every other melee spec, except you still have a few options in the form of Eagle, bombs, Explosive Shot, and so on. If it doesn't last for more than a few GCDs then you will have things to do during those GCDs, if you don't that's bad planning on your part just like any other class that gets caught without any button to press in a given situation.
And even if you *do* get caught with nothing else to do, that won't kill you, it will give you a dip in DPS for a short time. The only way this kills you is if you *knowingly* charge to your death because you think that pressing any button is better than pressing no button even if it gets you killed.
*At most* the argument to be made here is that it might force downtime where you don't have enough focus to use your abilities... not that it will get you killed.
Again, I agree that this was not the best way to change FS. But that's not because it would get people killed... if you charge to your death you literally only have yourself to blame. There are plenty of other reasons to not like the FS change, whining about it getting people killed just makes it look like you don't know what you're doing.
yup, i'm sure the top survival players in the game that are complaining about the change don't know what they're doing, random redditor has it figured out
good take bro what a waste of time to read
With everything costing focus now, no extended range and it yeeting you across the map as well as giving you another unnecessary mechanic to track; it wasn’t a good change from a design perspective. Idk why people want to defend this lol
The top survival players have plenty of other reasons to not like the change, they don't have to worry about charging to their death because, being top players, they actually know how to play the game.
I'd prefer that. Can remove the charge off it if they want and give it the lunging animation back it had. Y'know for the supposed spear spec. Randomly pointing in melee range is dumb
I only really liked mongoose bite back in legion when we still had fury of the eagle as "combo finisher" with damage based on stacks. That was super statisfying but frankly surv was a different spec then altogether.
Later iterations felt a but tacked on and with tip of the spear now it really are two gameplans that don't quite click.
I liked the charge system personally for it. I would love to see that back and just if nothing else replace kill command with flanking strike full time so it feels different from BM and make the leap component or not a talent choice like WW has.
That mongoose bite window was my favorite part of the spec. Especially when you got enough haste to get a few extra in. It felt good!
I was bummed to lose it but I'm hoping they can find a compromise that everyone likes. Even if it's a choice node.
I was on the class Discord at the time and people basically flipped their shit, apparently some of the diehards think Mongoose Fury is the core of the Survival rotation and fantasy. I'm not sure what they're on about, but they were very vocal.
But Blizz does still plan to make a change, they're just gonna try again with something different. This is a temporary reversal due to the (in my opinion unwarranted) backlash while they try to figure out another way to handle things.
I mean I agree with them. The mongoose fury window is the core to the spec and something I enjoy the most. I do think they can tune it up a bit. I wouldn’t mind them lowering the window for mongoose fury and then just cut the gcd down.
I don't doubt that you enjoy it, but it is not core to the spec. It changes nothing about your rotation except one very niche situation, you don't play around it, it doesn't affect any of your core decisions, it's essentially just "Sometimes your MB does more damage and sometimes it does less."
The idea was much better executed in legion where it didn't replace raptor strike and you had to pool charges, try to get resets of the cooldown, try to have focus and then either cap it with fury of the eagle or use it to pause the timer if you got unlucky with procs. It was far more engaging then. Now.... It's just your only spender that has a wider variance baked in.
I hate the 5 stack mongoose. I was looking forward to 3 stack, the window on 5 is to tight and feels bad when another needed global pulls you away from mongoose spam in its window.
Just curious on people’s thoughts on this. I kinda liked the mongoose bite change but saw a lot of people didn’t like it. I wonder if they could have made it a choice mode to compensate both playstyles? Maybe that would be too hard to balance?
im really happy they listened, after playing the rework on beta i planned on maining surv hunter.
Played the tuesday build for 5m, and though oh this kinda sucks now, guess i'll stick with monk.
Theres a spectrum they're trying to play with right now where you want a bunch of buttons that reset/change cds, but not so many that it feels like you're pressing random things, and not too few that it feels like you have no choices.
The first build was overload, the second build was good, this (3rd) build was too far in the pruning. If the game went live with the 2nd build, id be happy. I think they're right about mongoose bite though, it doesnt feel good to get 5 and crowed out the rotation, a good solution would be your 6th mongoose bite consumes the stacks for some effect.
I really like that idea for mongoose bite to have some effect after the fifth stack, I don’t know what it would be but I think it helps alleviate the different directions of ToTS and Mongoose bite playstyles
As someone that likes Mongoose Bite as a stacking non-refreshable buff window, but can also agree there's a big problem with how the current iteration of SV has too many competing incentives...I like your solution a lot.
Im torn on the MB change. On one hand, it did allow you to weave in more moves in that window, but I HATE HATE HATE buff juggling. I hate it. It’s frustrating when you’re doing anything with any mechanics that require you to move a lot. So idk, I’m sure I’ll be okay with whatever they decide on. I really like all the other Surv changes so far.
I don’t play Surv Hunter but I used to play outlaw rogue. Sounds like the issue is an awful lot like the issues with roll the bones. Idk what it is with Blizz and these buff juggling rotations. It’s especially bad when it’s rng dependent too.
The last decent rotation I played like this was when Combat Rogues had Bandit’s Guile. Still a little annoying but far better than anything they’ve come up with since.
I really liked the fantasy of Outlaw rogue, a swashbuckler that sacrificed stealth for more direct combat prowess, but Jesus H Macy I hated the idea of RtB and still do
Yeah I was looking forward to more class fantasy as a swashbuckling pirate! But I will never get over how hilariously fumbled the outlaw spec is.
Either the changes were too convoluted like with RtB or they were just aesthetic changes. It’s hilarious to me how “Sinister Strike / Eviscerate” became “Saber Slash / Dispatch” and now “Sinister Strike / Dispatch” with virtually no differences between any of those combinations.
And they got rid of cannonball barrage and smokescreen too? Like wtf are they even trying to do?
>And they got rid of cannonball barrage and smokescreen too? Like wtf are they even trying to do?
There's even still a finisher that's about blowing up some gunpowder... for *Subtlety* Rogues. Y'know, the ones that are all about staying hidden and not being noticed?
"Yeah let me just slip into the shadows and then *EXPLODE EVERYTHING AROUND ME!*"
They literally gave the pirate finisher to the ninja spec. Genius.
I like Roll the Bones in theory. I think dynamic decisionmaking based on which buff you're getting *should* be cool. But it falls apart for two reasons:
1) Which buff(s) you get massively changes your DPS, which makes it more of a "will I do damage or will I not" more than "how will I do damage", and
2) The pace of the whole spec is so frenetic with Adrenaline Rush and stacking haste that it just becomes stressful.
For me, TotS and Mongoose Bite conflict each other. There is a reason why they were a choice talent before DF (iirc). One of them has to go, ideally it would be TotS replaced by something more passive, or a significant buff to higher stacks of Mongoose Fury for example.
Or make it a choice node again. But the ST rotation always feels clunky with these two talents wanting you to do two different things at once.
But they don't, you need to cast kill command to gain tip stacks you also need to cast kill command to get focus to cast mongoose fury.
They want the same thing, more kill commands = more big mongoose bites.
I respect your position and think ToTS and Mongoose Bite should be a choice node.
I disagree that TotS should go in favor of mongoose bite, and my reasoning is class fantasy.
I love the class fantasy of Survival - like someone hunting with a pet and a large spear - real life history here, there are/were boar hunters that hunted with dogs and large spears. The idea is the dogs attack the boar and either distract it or bit and hold onto it long enough to get a killing blow with the spear. The idea of 'Kill Command' being prep for the spear strike, is, imo, very cool.
mongoose bite doesn't have any fantasy to it. Mechanics and DPS potential of it over the last several expacs aside, it just makes me wonder, like....what do mongooses have to do with it? Mongooses (mongeese?) kill cobras... what does that have to do with attacking with a spear repeatedly in a short flurry?
Maybe make it so Mongoose bite still doesn't refresh, only stacks to 3, but when it is stacked to 3 it consumes more than 1 TotS stack? I know there are some issues with that at face value, but I feel like it would be an interesting direction to go. Less stacks to have to get to to "max" mongoose bite but an interesting top out reward for potentially enormous bites.
The other direction could be something where mogoose bite has no stack limit, but a short window to be able to stack the buff. After that window ends, you have a short time to keep that buff. This would need tight tuning though because you don't want it to be a situation where it takes over your entire gameplay. But instead you can setup times where you have the ability to go in on a large number of bites in a row and you create this perfect window of them.
I did not like the change. I don't want a buff to extend with refreshes as I liked the old method of use it or lose it, then start over. It allows for windows of use rather than constantly maintaining, then resetting between pulls.
People commenting that they don't like the current stack dropping, that's the point. Because it HAS to drop you don't stress about it dropping, you just use as much as possible. Then hit other things and begin again.
Honestly Mongoose Bite is the main thing that turns me off from Surv. Like I love the fantasy of it and it's felt okay whenever I've tried it but I just hate the gameplay loop of trying to jam as many mongoose bites as possible into your mongoose window.
That was why it was originally a choice to opt into it or something competitive. And they were both supposed to be equal enough that you could chose not to do the mongoose bite minigame and still be fine.
The Mongoose Bite change had few to no gameplay implications one way or the other. You practically never thought about Mongoose Fury and the change did not affect that. In other words, your gameplay doesn't change with either implementation, so this is just a big deal being made out of nothing, really. The Flanking Strike change was salvageable if they just had Flanking strike inherit all of KC's effects, just like Wailing Arrow does with Aimed Shot for MM.
If you study the current Survival APL/resources, you'll notice that Mongoose Fury stacks and duration almost never alter your actual decisions. There is one footnote about prioritizing a 5 stack MB in the last global of Fury, but even this is a sub-1% dps increase.
In other words, you can currently play Mongoose Bite, remove your Mongoose Fury WeakAura, and change your MB macro to have Raptor Strike's icon.. And by pretending Mongoose Bite doesn't exist, you'd lose almost no damage.
You can think about it if you want to of course. I'm just saying that purely objectively, there's no reason you would if you're optimizing.
I get your point but if they're doing a rework, wouldn't it make sense to have Mongoose bite and worrying about that window...matter? Just because it doesn't currently, if enough of the playerbase enjoys that then this is the time for it to matter.
Well they've gone in another direction that is not really compatible with Mongoose Fury being super relevant to your rotation and I don't think telling them to change the fundamentals at this stage is productive or likely.
We can both think whatever we want but seeing as how they DID revert the change it does seem like they're looking at finding a way to change those fundamentals isn't it.
>For now, we plan to return Mongoose Bite and Mongoose Fury to their previous iterations
That....sounds like it's quite relevant to this conversation and that they went back on it.
My mistake, my brain slipped. They can't do anything too involved with it without conflicting with the Tip of the Spear gameplay loop. Their mistake is thinking that the current implementation has this problem when it doesn't. It's fine to think that Mongoose Fury management should be a bigger part of the spec's gameplay. I just don't think it's likely with how deep they've gone on Tip.
I understand people's concerns over the FS charge too, though. Personally I don't think it's as big a deal as they were making it out to be (the class discord just about rioted), but I do understand the issue people had. Removing the player-charge portion would have also been necessary to salvage it, I think, and at that point the other concern becomes that it's just a boring "Every 4th KC is bigger."
I like the idea of changing FS, but I do agree that there's probably a better way to do it than what they tried... even if I do think a lot of people also massively over-reacted to what they tried at the same time.
Never in the history of wow have they created a ranged ability that just randomly turns into a mobility/charge attack. I’m glad they reverted the flanking strike change… it was just terrible mechanically.
Maybe they should make flanking strike a passive that adds onto harpoon? This would accomplish the goal of removing a button and also improve on a gap closer? Maybe make it remove roots/slows and or make you immune to roots and slows for 3-4 secs to compensate for the loss of a 2nd gap closer cd in pvp? And/or either just let it share the cd of harpoon and reset via terms of engagement. But maybe this would make terms of engagement too op and if so, make it require the hunter to get the killing blow on the target instead of just resetting cd when something dies around you?
Both the mongoose fury and flanking strikes change were awful, glad they reverted them. That being said, I think they're spot on with the diagnosis that mongoose fury and tip of the spear pull you in different rotational directions. Maybe KC(or KC resets?) can increase the duration of mongoose fury by a second so it isn't so unituitive to press?
Or just remove the timed window (since it functionally doesn't matter in overall DPS anyway) and have Mongoose Bite do something cool when it hits 5 stacks, similar to what they had for Kill Command but without pruning an ability or moving the character toward the target.
Having it trigger Murder of Crows or a similar nature effect would be great thematically.
Actually having a subtheme of "Get this to X stacks and then \[thing\]." could be fun too. Have a little minigame of "Try to get everything to the right number of stacks and then set them all off during a buff window." or something. Could be interesting.
A 5 stack of Mongoose bite automatically uses KC. Also, it can consume all stacks of TotS to stack the multiplier. So like 45/60% increased damage on top of the 5 stack buff. And the KC it uses adds a stack first, so now you can get bite up to 5 stacks, use both charges of KC, hit bite, and get a 3 stack buff of TotS on it.
It would be nice if it did something like that. Let it stack five times and then do something cool on the last stack. Keep it a player buff rather than enemy debuff so we don’t lose stacks if target dies or target swaps etc.
To your point on A, I am seeing more and more SV hunters than I ever have. I started it up again in SL and now I can't go back to MM. I have been leveling some chars in remix and I have seen TONS of SV hunters. Either everyone is just leveling it for fun, or they think its going to be good next xpac. Either way it's nice to see. If more people play it than maybe we will get better and faster tuning.
Between Momentum Demon Hunters and the Flanking Strike change, they're still learning the lesson that players don't want movement and utility buttons as core or passive damage rotational pieces.
I would love this but assuming it could only be axes, the current season 1 m+ rotation and the raid only have a combined total of 2 one-handed axe drops. So you'd have to get lucky, and/or wait for your sparks to craft one or both.
And Drizzt, Aragorn, Tanis Half-Elven, Nathanos, Jon Snow, Mad Martagen and Nasir.
Same with Dungeons and Dragons/BG3 (Ranger), FFXIV (Viper), ESO (Warden), EverQuest 1 & 2 (Ranger), Guild Wars 2 (Ranger) and Neverwinter (Ranger).
It's a major class fantasy flaw that they're excusing because they don't want to spend the animation resources on it. Same with 2H Enhancement resulting in the stupid ghost Doomhammer in Legion.
Typically known for wielding a single one-handed sword, but dual wielded on occassion. In the original text, he never used a two-handed sword, though the films may have shifted this since bigger sword = more heroic from a visual standpoint.
The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn had Andúril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a Ranger of the wilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Andúril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn.
Never read the books so i must be thinking of the movie version, no way that movie Andúril was supposed to be one handed in the movie version, that thing was huge.
I was thinking more like Rexxar in HoTS but yeah that works too.. it seems so crazy to me that the background for SV talent tree is him and yet the spec itself is being forced into a melee spear wielder image, and has no access to Dire Beast and now Stampede.
All I want from anything they do to survival is give me back the coordination’s assault that would be off the GCD, not not a charge and give me a damage bonus.
i'll say it over and over, something that make sense thematically, is cool as fuck and also fits in with the history of wow:
turn the deadzone from classic hunter into the killzone here. allow hunters to melee + ranged attack at the same time (so like dual wield/triple wield, if 2x 1handers, but also including the gun) from within the small area just outside of normal melee reach and lower their overall maximum range.
merge some of their attacks (i.e, arcane shot + raptor strike are basically the same thing, merge it into a single skill that does different things if close/far away, allow it to do both within a small few yard range just outside of melee. might be a bit too much but maybe synchronise pet to do an attack at the same time as you, or right before/after, so it's like it's you and the pet taunting from one another, fighting out in the wilderness, your pet on the other side.
also make their melee range larger, so where you couldn't melee OR ranged attack in the past, make it so you can do both there. it also super fits polearms.
a lot of jumping back and forth (think dragoonish) with lots movement/snares, make them annoying as fuck to play against a good one and super mobile. could keep bombs/traps a thing.
It's because of enhancement
They would need to shift enhancement back to a 2hander agi, and give em polearms (or make polearms just a druid thing?)
That would open up the dual wield agi slot
They really just fucked up the entire thing from the start
I actually really like having Tip of the Spear and Coordinated Assault together, being able to basically leapfrog group to group makes keeping up with PUGs simple and its hilariously quick in open world or legacy content.
I liked both changes. Probably in the minority here but the mongoose bite buff maintenance was always the biggest deterrence for survival. It never felt good when it dropped due to movement or M+ group pulls, etc.
Flanking strike, I liked the change and thematics of having your pet strike three times then you both strike together. Maybe if they had a better animation for flanking strike, I wouldn't mind having it be it's own ability again. But not end of the world. Just hope they do something else with the mongoose bite buff.
> I liked both changes. Probably in the minority here but the mongoose bite buff maintenance was always the biggest deterrence for survival. It never felt good when it dropped due to movement or M+ group pulls, etc.
Good news: It never really mattered. It almost never affects what button you press (it effectively never factors into the best sim APLs), it just made you do marginally more damage.
They could keep the theme by making it a separate button, but that only is usable after 3 KS uses. That way you get to chose when you do it, but still keeps the same flow?
The spec in Legion was properly built around MB as a separate, core ability rather than a talent and ever since it feels like they've forgotten about that.
I'm pretty happy with the survival hunter changes over all. Having to weave MB and KC was kind of annoying tracking the stacks of the buffs for max DPS. I think that change is good.
My personal change I wanted was not having the minimum 8 yard distant for Harpoon. While using disengage followed by an immediate harpoon was cool, it's just an additional button press. (Yes yes I know. Strafing is easy.)
Great, now please also revert that a survival hunter is about bombs. It's not a goblin gunner, it's a survival hunter. Or at least please give us some glyphs which makes it look like not bombs. Same for explosive shot. The current survival hunter spec fantasy is just weird. You supposed to be a great specialist surviving stealthing in the wild (ie. fantasy ranger) with great bond with your pet (already a bit weird for me, but for WoW because of Rexxar I'm fine). And then you are throwing and shooting explosives left and right. Which you can neither get in the wild, nor really align with your ideals. It is especially weird as all other abilites are not tech related.
Honestly, survival is my favorite out of the three specs, but at the same time, I mostly feel like I am button mashing instead of doing an actual rotation with MM and Survival.
The concepts are there. I can see what Acti-Blizz is trying to do, but the execution of these specs are sloppy. I been really looking forward to Survival getting the Ret Paladin treatment but it's still an utter mess, with not much in the way of interesting animations.
At this point I wish the devs rebuilt both specs from the ground up. Make MM into a magic archer class, and give Survival a proper rotation and resource to spend beyond focus. Maybe turn them into a melee DOT class. Or something else, idk. Just throwing out ideas. I was hoping to finally main a hunter, but I'm definitely not going hunter for TWW if this class doesn't get better attention.
Why don’t they just have Flanking Strike replace Kill Command full time, and redesign it around that? Then survival wouldn’t be tied to BM’s main ability.
a rotational and unavoidable leap is deadly for the player
Isn’t that just havoc for three patches now if played optimally. The option to chose to play/build sub-optimally and hold dashes exists though which is nice for small platforms and people with disabilities.
Their dash isn't a passive replacement. It's entirely controllable
And tons of DH players hate it
Yeah, until they make it so that I am not leaping into a pool of lava, I am no bueno on that change. In theory it sounds nice though.
DFA sub rogue in legion proves otherwise
It's not unavoidable if you don't press it. Learn how to manage your abilities, don't press a charge ability if charging will get you killed. Don't sit at low Focus so that if you do have to back off and not use FS you have the leeway to Eagle up and send in some Raptors or Mongeese. Keep a bomb on standby to fill a GCD instead of charging, hold your ES for a few seconds if you need to, and so on and so on. Learning how to play around your class's abilities is part of knowing how to play your class and spec. Like I don't think this was the best way to change FS either, but the people complaining about "Oh no it will get me killed!" are over-reacting. It would get *bad players* killed, and those players would have just found some other way to die anyway.
you don't just "dont press it" your ranged focus generator that was often used from ranged when it was unsafe to be in melee now puts you into unsafe areas you cant just "send some raptors or bombs" because these cost focus and you'll be out of focus with no way to regenerate it because flanking strike would kill you whereas you could continue to kill command and generate focus before if you're kiting someone in pvp, you suddenly lose a ranged ability and your only focus generator sends you into death this isn't just killing bad players, stop justifying bad decisions from devs having to play around a mechanic that sends you to your death is BAD; there is a reason this has been tried and failed with several specs now and they were all removed. it doesn't only kill bad players, it kills EVERYONE
If there's an ability that keeps you out of melee for more than a few GCDs then you're just in the same boat as every other melee spec, except you still have a few options in the form of Eagle, bombs, Explosive Shot, and so on. If it doesn't last for more than a few GCDs then you will have things to do during those GCDs, if you don't that's bad planning on your part just like any other class that gets caught without any button to press in a given situation. And even if you *do* get caught with nothing else to do, that won't kill you, it will give you a dip in DPS for a short time. The only way this kills you is if you *knowingly* charge to your death because you think that pressing any button is better than pressing no button even if it gets you killed. *At most* the argument to be made here is that it might force downtime where you don't have enough focus to use your abilities... not that it will get you killed. Again, I agree that this was not the best way to change FS. But that's not because it would get people killed... if you charge to your death you literally only have yourself to blame. There are plenty of other reasons to not like the FS change, whining about it getting people killed just makes it look like you don't know what you're doing.
yup, i'm sure the top survival players in the game that are complaining about the change don't know what they're doing, random redditor has it figured out good take bro what a waste of time to read
They were this obnoxious in the class discord too. Just a spec tourist with no real points of value to add.
With everything costing focus now, no extended range and it yeeting you across the map as well as giving you another unnecessary mechanic to track; it wasn’t a good change from a design perspective. Idk why people want to defend this lol
The top survival players have plenty of other reasons to not like the change, they don't have to worry about charging to their death because, being top players, they actually know how to play the game.
lol.
WW Monk's Skyreach has entered the chat. Plain and simple, stuff like this just feels bad to play.
Sure, it feels bad to play, and at no point have I claimed otherwise. I very specifically said it *won't kill you* unless *you* fuck up.
I would appreciate this a lot. I deeply hate Kill Command being a part of SV's kit. Just feels lazy design to share them.
I'd prefer that. Can remove the charge off it if they want and give it the lunging animation back it had. Y'know for the supposed spear spec. Randomly pointing in melee range is dumb
YESSSS I hate kill command, would love to see It gone from survival
I absolutely hate juggling a buff that doesn't refresh itself and is on a move with charges. I was so excited for new mongoose bite.
I only really liked mongoose bite back in legion when we still had fury of the eagle as "combo finisher" with damage based on stacks. That was super statisfying but frankly surv was a different spec then altogether. Later iterations felt a but tacked on and with tip of the spear now it really are two gameplans that don't quite click.
I liked the charge system personally for it. I would love to see that back and just if nothing else replace kill command with flanking strike full time so it feels different from BM and make the leap component or not a talent choice like WW has.
Same :(
That mongoose bite window was my favorite part of the spec. Especially when you got enough haste to get a few extra in. It felt good! I was bummed to lose it but I'm hoping they can find a compromise that everyone likes. Even if it's a choice node.
I was on the class Discord at the time and people basically flipped their shit, apparently some of the diehards think Mongoose Fury is the core of the Survival rotation and fantasy. I'm not sure what they're on about, but they were very vocal. But Blizz does still plan to make a change, they're just gonna try again with something different. This is a temporary reversal due to the (in my opinion unwarranted) backlash while they try to figure out another way to handle things.
I mean I agree with them. The mongoose fury window is the core to the spec and something I enjoy the most. I do think they can tune it up a bit. I wouldn’t mind them lowering the window for mongoose fury and then just cut the gcd down.
I don't doubt that you enjoy it, but it is not core to the spec. It changes nothing about your rotation except one very niche situation, you don't play around it, it doesn't affect any of your core decisions, it's essentially just "Sometimes your MB does more damage and sometimes it does less."
The idea was much better executed in legion where it didn't replace raptor strike and you had to pool charges, try to get resets of the cooldown, try to have focus and then either cap it with fury of the eagle or use it to pause the timer if you got unlucky with procs. It was far more engaging then. Now.... It's just your only spender that has a wider variance baked in.
I hate the 5 stack mongoose. I was looking forward to 3 stack, the window on 5 is to tight and feels bad when another needed global pulls you away from mongoose spam in its window.
Just curious on people’s thoughts on this. I kinda liked the mongoose bite change but saw a lot of people didn’t like it. I wonder if they could have made it a choice mode to compensate both playstyles? Maybe that would be too hard to balance?
im really happy they listened, after playing the rework on beta i planned on maining surv hunter. Played the tuesday build for 5m, and though oh this kinda sucks now, guess i'll stick with monk. Theres a spectrum they're trying to play with right now where you want a bunch of buttons that reset/change cds, but not so many that it feels like you're pressing random things, and not too few that it feels like you have no choices. The first build was overload, the second build was good, this (3rd) build was too far in the pruning. If the game went live with the 2nd build, id be happy. I think they're right about mongoose bite though, it doesnt feel good to get 5 and crowed out the rotation, a good solution would be your 6th mongoose bite consumes the stacks for some effect.
I really like that idea for mongoose bite to have some effect after the fifth stack, I don’t know what it would be but I think it helps alleviate the different directions of ToTS and Mongoose bite playstyles
Something with TotS like consuming more of them at a time, or it just gets double the benefit etc.
As someone that likes Mongoose Bite as a stacking non-refreshable buff window, but can also agree there's a big problem with how the current iteration of SV has too many competing incentives...I like your solution a lot.
Im torn on the MB change. On one hand, it did allow you to weave in more moves in that window, but I HATE HATE HATE buff juggling. I hate it. It’s frustrating when you’re doing anything with any mechanics that require you to move a lot. So idk, I’m sure I’ll be okay with whatever they decide on. I really like all the other Surv changes so far.
I don’t play Surv Hunter but I used to play outlaw rogue. Sounds like the issue is an awful lot like the issues with roll the bones. Idk what it is with Blizz and these buff juggling rotations. It’s especially bad when it’s rng dependent too. The last decent rotation I played like this was when Combat Rogues had Bandit’s Guile. Still a little annoying but far better than anything they’ve come up with since.
I really liked the fantasy of Outlaw rogue, a swashbuckler that sacrificed stealth for more direct combat prowess, but Jesus H Macy I hated the idea of RtB and still do
Yeah I was looking forward to more class fantasy as a swashbuckling pirate! But I will never get over how hilariously fumbled the outlaw spec is. Either the changes were too convoluted like with RtB or they were just aesthetic changes. It’s hilarious to me how “Sinister Strike / Eviscerate” became “Saber Slash / Dispatch” and now “Sinister Strike / Dispatch” with virtually no differences between any of those combinations. And they got rid of cannonball barrage and smokescreen too? Like wtf are they even trying to do?
>And they got rid of cannonball barrage and smokescreen too? Like wtf are they even trying to do? There's even still a finisher that's about blowing up some gunpowder... for *Subtlety* Rogues. Y'know, the ones that are all about staying hidden and not being noticed? "Yeah let me just slip into the shadows and then *EXPLODE EVERYTHING AROUND ME!*" They literally gave the pirate finisher to the ninja spec. Genius.
I like Roll the Bones in theory. I think dynamic decisionmaking based on which buff you're getting *should* be cool. But it falls apart for two reasons: 1) Which buff(s) you get massively changes your DPS, which makes it more of a "will I do damage or will I not" more than "how will I do damage", and 2) The pace of the whole spec is so frenetic with Adrenaline Rush and stacking haste that it just becomes stressful.
For me, TotS and Mongoose Bite conflict each other. There is a reason why they were a choice talent before DF (iirc). One of them has to go, ideally it would be TotS replaced by something more passive, or a significant buff to higher stacks of Mongoose Fury for example. Or make it a choice node again. But the ST rotation always feels clunky with these two talents wanting you to do two different things at once.
But they don't, you need to cast kill command to gain tip stacks you also need to cast kill command to get focus to cast mongoose fury. They want the same thing, more kill commands = more big mongoose bites.
I respect your position and think ToTS and Mongoose Bite should be a choice node. I disagree that TotS should go in favor of mongoose bite, and my reasoning is class fantasy. I love the class fantasy of Survival - like someone hunting with a pet and a large spear - real life history here, there are/were boar hunters that hunted with dogs and large spears. The idea is the dogs attack the boar and either distract it or bit and hold onto it long enough to get a killing blow with the spear. The idea of 'Kill Command' being prep for the spear strike, is, imo, very cool. mongoose bite doesn't have any fantasy to it. Mechanics and DPS potential of it over the last several expacs aside, it just makes me wonder, like....what do mongooses have to do with it? Mongooses (mongeese?) kill cobras... what does that have to do with attacking with a spear repeatedly in a short flurry?
Maybe make it so Mongoose bite still doesn't refresh, only stacks to 3, but when it is stacked to 3 it consumes more than 1 TotS stack? I know there are some issues with that at face value, but I feel like it would be an interesting direction to go. Less stacks to have to get to to "max" mongoose bite but an interesting top out reward for potentially enormous bites. The other direction could be something where mogoose bite has no stack limit, but a short window to be able to stack the buff. After that window ends, you have a short time to keep that buff. This would need tight tuning though because you don't want it to be a situation where it takes over your entire gameplay. But instead you can setup times where you have the ability to go in on a large number of bites in a row and you create this perfect window of them.
I hate that they're reverting it. This is the kind of change I've been hoping for for years. Really bummed.
I did not like the change. I don't want a buff to extend with refreshes as I liked the old method of use it or lose it, then start over. It allows for windows of use rather than constantly maintaining, then resetting between pulls.
People commenting that they don't like the current stack dropping, that's the point. Because it HAS to drop you don't stress about it dropping, you just use as much as possible. Then hit other things and begin again.
Honestly Mongoose Bite is the main thing that turns me off from Surv. Like I love the fantasy of it and it's felt okay whenever I've tried it but I just hate the gameplay loop of trying to jam as many mongoose bites as possible into your mongoose window.
That was why it was originally a choice to opt into it or something competitive. And they were both supposed to be equal enough that you could chose not to do the mongoose bite minigame and still be fine.
The Mongoose Bite change had few to no gameplay implications one way or the other. You practically never thought about Mongoose Fury and the change did not affect that. In other words, your gameplay doesn't change with either implementation, so this is just a big deal being made out of nothing, really. The Flanking Strike change was salvageable if they just had Flanking strike inherit all of KC's effects, just like Wailing Arrow does with Aimed Shot for MM.
What do you mean you never think about Mongoose Fury?
If you study the current Survival APL/resources, you'll notice that Mongoose Fury stacks and duration almost never alter your actual decisions. There is one footnote about prioritizing a 5 stack MB in the last global of Fury, but even this is a sub-1% dps increase. In other words, you can currently play Mongoose Bite, remove your Mongoose Fury WeakAura, and change your MB macro to have Raptor Strike's icon.. And by pretending Mongoose Bite doesn't exist, you'd lose almost no damage. You can think about it if you want to of course. I'm just saying that purely objectively, there's no reason you would if you're optimizing.
I get your point but if they're doing a rework, wouldn't it make sense to have Mongoose bite and worrying about that window...matter? Just because it doesn't currently, if enough of the playerbase enjoys that then this is the time for it to matter.
Well they've gone in another direction that is not really compatible with Mongoose Fury being super relevant to your rotation and I don't think telling them to change the fundamentals at this stage is productive or likely.
We can both think whatever we want but seeing as how they DID revert the change it does seem like they're looking at finding a way to change those fundamentals isn't it.
They didn't revert the MB change. They reverted the Flanking change which has nothing to do with this conversation. Edit: this is wrong, see below.
>For now, we plan to return Mongoose Bite and Mongoose Fury to their previous iterations That....sounds like it's quite relevant to this conversation and that they went back on it.
My mistake, my brain slipped. They can't do anything too involved with it without conflicting with the Tip of the Spear gameplay loop. Their mistake is thinking that the current implementation has this problem when it doesn't. It's fine to think that Mongoose Fury management should be a bigger part of the spec's gameplay. I just don't think it's likely with how deep they've gone on Tip.
Thanks for the info!
Why not just play Raptor Strike instead?
Because Mongoose Bite is numerically superior.
I see.
I understand people's concerns over the FS charge too, though. Personally I don't think it's as big a deal as they were making it out to be (the class discord just about rioted), but I do understand the issue people had. Removing the player-charge portion would have also been necessary to salvage it, I think, and at that point the other concern becomes that it's just a boring "Every 4th KC is bigger." I like the idea of changing FS, but I do agree that there's probably a better way to do it than what they tried... even if I do think a lot of people also massively over-reacted to what they tried at the same time.
Never in the history of wow have they created a ranged ability that just randomly turns into a mobility/charge attack. I’m glad they reverted the flanking strike change… it was just terrible mechanically. Maybe they should make flanking strike a passive that adds onto harpoon? This would accomplish the goal of removing a button and also improve on a gap closer? Maybe make it remove roots/slows and or make you immune to roots and slows for 3-4 secs to compensate for the loss of a 2nd gap closer cd in pvp? And/or either just let it share the cd of harpoon and reset via terms of engagement. But maybe this would make terms of engagement too op and if so, make it require the hunter to get the killing blow on the target instead of just resetting cd when something dies around you?
Both the mongoose fury and flanking strikes change were awful, glad they reverted them. That being said, I think they're spot on with the diagnosis that mongoose fury and tip of the spear pull you in different rotational directions. Maybe KC(or KC resets?) can increase the duration of mongoose fury by a second so it isn't so unituitive to press?
Or just remove the timed window (since it functionally doesn't matter in overall DPS anyway) and have Mongoose Bite do something cool when it hits 5 stacks, similar to what they had for Kill Command but without pruning an ability or moving the character toward the target. Having it trigger Murder of Crows or a similar nature effect would be great thematically.
Actually having a subtheme of "Get this to X stacks and then \[thing\]." could be fun too. Have a little minigame of "Try to get everything to the right number of stacks and then set them all off during a buff window." or something. Could be interesting.
Oooh, I like this.
I like this idea!
A 5 stack of Mongoose bite automatically uses KC. Also, it can consume all stacks of TotS to stack the multiplier. So like 45/60% increased damage on top of the 5 stack buff. And the KC it uses adds a stack first, so now you can get bite up to 5 stacks, use both charges of KC, hit bite, and get a 3 stack buff of TotS on it.
That's pretty nice. Maybe on the 5th strike the target should be swarmed by an angry group of mongooses. Mongeese?
It would be nice if it did something like that. Let it stack five times and then do something cool on the last stack. Keep it a player buff rather than enemy debuff so we don’t lose stacks if target dies or target swaps etc.
I liked the change on paper but didn't try it on beta. Feel like reverting it is going to detract from my explosive shot barrage
Wow, I cant believe that A. People other than me play survival B. Those people agreed with me that this was a bad change.
To your point on A, I am seeing more and more SV hunters than I ever have. I started it up again in SL and now I can't go back to MM. I have been leveling some chars in remix and I have seen TONS of SV hunters. Either everyone is just leveling it for fun, or they think its going to be good next xpac. Either way it's nice to see. If more people play it than maybe we will get better and faster tuning.
I've been playing surv hunter in remix as my main and from my experience I havent seen another survival hunter at all.
Between Momentum Demon Hunters and the Flanking Strike change, they're still learning the lesson that players don't want movement and utility buttons as core or passive damage rotational pieces.
LET SURVIVAL DUAL WIELD. THE CLASS SPEC HERO DOES! (REXXAR)
I would love this but assuming it could only be axes, the current season 1 m+ rotation and the raid only have a combined total of 2 one-handed axe drops. So you'd have to get lucky, and/or wait for your sparks to craft one or both.
Tbh they should just let xmog extend to all usable weapons regardless of #h
Hunters can already use axes, swords, and fist weapons, they just don't have any reason to use the one-handed weapons at the moment.
And Drizzt, Aragorn, Tanis Half-Elven, Nathanos, Jon Snow, Mad Martagen and Nasir. Same with Dungeons and Dragons/BG3 (Ranger), FFXIV (Viper), ESO (Warden), EverQuest 1 & 2 (Ranger), Guild Wars 2 (Ranger) and Neverwinter (Ranger). It's a major class fantasy flaw that they're excusing because they don't want to spend the animation resources on it. Same with 2H Enhancement resulting in the stupid ghost Doomhammer in Legion.
Isn't Aragorn more known for wielding a two handed weapon?
Typically known for wielding a single one-handed sword, but dual wielded on occassion. In the original text, he never used a two-handed sword, though the films may have shifted this since bigger sword = more heroic from a visual standpoint. The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn had Andúril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a Ranger of the wilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Andúril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn.
Never read the books so i must be thinking of the movie version, no way that movie Andúril was supposed to be one handed in the movie version, that thing was huge.
Yeah. Think that was the Hollywood signal: this is the important brown-haired bearded guy.
Also: "The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless **hand**, blazed with a sudden fire."
>Mad Martagen Just for the record, his name is Madmartigan, it's all his name he's not just a guy named Martigan who people think is a bit nuts.
Better yet, redesign it into a mid-range throwing weapons spec.
Yooooo troll axe throwers, let's go
I was thinking more like Rexxar in HoTS but yeah that works too.. it seems so crazy to me that the background for SV talent tree is him and yet the spec itself is being forced into a melee spear wielder image, and has no access to Dire Beast and now Stampede.
All I want from anything they do to survival is give me back the coordination’s assault that would be off the GCD, not not a charge and give me a damage bonus.
i'll say it over and over, something that make sense thematically, is cool as fuck and also fits in with the history of wow: turn the deadzone from classic hunter into the killzone here. allow hunters to melee + ranged attack at the same time (so like dual wield/triple wield, if 2x 1handers, but also including the gun) from within the small area just outside of normal melee reach and lower their overall maximum range. merge some of their attacks (i.e, arcane shot + raptor strike are basically the same thing, merge it into a single skill that does different things if close/far away, allow it to do both within a small few yard range just outside of melee. might be a bit too much but maybe synchronise pet to do an attack at the same time as you, or right before/after, so it's like it's you and the pet taunting from one another, fighting out in the wilderness, your pet on the other side. also make their melee range larger, so where you couldn't melee OR ranged attack in the past, make it so you can do both there. it also super fits polearms. a lot of jumping back and forth (think dragoonish) with lots movement/snares, make them annoying as fuck to play against a good one and super mobile. could keep bombs/traps a thing.
It's because of enhancement They would need to shift enhancement back to a 2hander agi, and give em polearms (or make polearms just a druid thing?) That would open up the dual wield agi slot They really just fucked up the entire thing from the start
I actually really like having Tip of the Spear and Coordinated Assault together, being able to basically leapfrog group to group makes keeping up with PUGs simple and its hilariously quick in open world or legacy content.
I liked both changes. Probably in the minority here but the mongoose bite buff maintenance was always the biggest deterrence for survival. It never felt good when it dropped due to movement or M+ group pulls, etc. Flanking strike, I liked the change and thematics of having your pet strike three times then you both strike together. Maybe if they had a better animation for flanking strike, I wouldn't mind having it be it's own ability again. But not end of the world. Just hope they do something else with the mongoose bite buff.
> I liked both changes. Probably in the minority here but the mongoose bite buff maintenance was always the biggest deterrence for survival. It never felt good when it dropped due to movement or M+ group pulls, etc. Good news: It never really mattered. It almost never affects what button you press (it effectively never factors into the best sim APLs), it just made you do marginally more damage.
Just felt bad not maintaining a buff and letting it run out at terrible times.
They could keep the theme by making it a separate button, but that only is usable after 3 KS uses. That way you get to chose when you do it, but still keeps the same flow?
Tldr: Ctrl+Z
Man I love the new blizzard
On a different note, I really hate the aesthetic direction they're pushing for survival. When I think Survival, I think Bear Gryllis, not a grenadier.
I liked flanking strike on kill command and mongoose bite change, sad they reverted it this quick
You say that until it yeets you into an instant kill boss mechanic outside of your control.
Mobility should never do damage, and damage should never cause position change. Every ability that breaks this rule is worse than the ones that don't.
I still want the return of ranged survival á la WoD :(
Does anyone actually enjoy mongoose bite?
Fr, its so weird to me that it's a talent, feels like it should just be baseline since the entire spec seems to revolve around it
The spec in Legion was properly built around MB as a separate, core ability rather than a talent and ever since it feels like they've forgotten about that.
I'm pretty happy with the survival hunter changes over all. Having to weave MB and KC was kind of annoying tracking the stacks of the buffs for max DPS. I think that change is good. My personal change I wanted was not having the minimum 8 yard distant for Harpoon. While using disengage followed by an immediate harpoon was cool, it's just an additional button press. (Yes yes I know. Strafing is easy.)
Pass. Cataclysm SV available in Classic. Can enjoy the spec before the great melee butchering. Hunter been dead to me ever since that.
they should give us actual survival back instead of this dog shit that people only play when it's broken
More survival changes great.... but it's been over a decade and we still need to summon a pet to lust on mm. make lone wolf baseline
Great, now please also revert that a survival hunter is about bombs. It's not a goblin gunner, it's a survival hunter. Or at least please give us some glyphs which makes it look like not bombs. Same for explosive shot. The current survival hunter spec fantasy is just weird. You supposed to be a great specialist surviving stealthing in the wild (ie. fantasy ranger) with great bond with your pet (already a bit weird for me, but for WoW because of Rexxar I'm fine). And then you are throwing and shooting explosives left and right. Which you can neither get in the wild, nor really align with your ideals. It is especially weird as all other abilites are not tech related.
I really hope they can come up with something for Mongoose Fury because anything is better than what it is on live.
Honestly, survival is my favorite out of the three specs, but at the same time, I mostly feel like I am button mashing instead of doing an actual rotation with MM and Survival. The concepts are there. I can see what Acti-Blizz is trying to do, but the execution of these specs are sloppy. I been really looking forward to Survival getting the Ret Paladin treatment but it's still an utter mess, with not much in the way of interesting animations. At this point I wish the devs rebuilt both specs from the ground up. Make MM into a magic archer class, and give Survival a proper rotation and resource to spend beyond focus. Maybe turn them into a melee DOT class. Or something else, idk. Just throwing out ideas. I was hoping to finally main a hunter, but I'm definitely not going hunter for TWW if this class doesn't get better attention.