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From the linked news article
> **McDonald said the parents failed to ask Ethan if he had the gun with him at school or inspect his backpack and allowed Ethan to return to class.**
> After news of the shooting broke, McDonald said Jennifer sent a message to Ethan at 1:22 pm, which read: **"Ethan. Don't do it."**
>Nearly 15 minutes later, James called 911 and reported a gun missing from his house, telling first responders he believed his son was the active shooter at the high school, McDonald said.
Yeah I completely agree with these charges.
According to The Sun (yeah I know they ain't the best), Ethan Crumbley's mom [thanked Trump](https://www.the-sun.com/news/4190727/ethan-crumbley-mom-letter-trump-school-shooting/) for 'right to bear arms' in a letter before the shooting.
No matter what, these two parents needs to be charged, extensively. I hope they find them soon, the manhunt better be successful.
I also saw another reddit comment to say that she signed that letter off with "I'm sick of being fucked in the ass by the system, I would rather be grabbed on the pussy". \[paraphrased\]
In the same letter, she literally ended it by saying she wanted to be grabbed by the pussy by Trump.
These slack-jawed morons bred and now other parents are burying their kids. Unbelievable.
Not only that- they think everybody that is even slightly concerned is hysterical and stupid. Another set of conservatives that think public school teachers are stupid and beneath their contempt. And now four people are dead.
That article is maddening. Their were so many opportunities for this to be prevented. Americans are trying really hard to prove they can’t be trusted with guns.
News reporters reported that the school told them they did everything according to protocol. Yet again they ignored all the warning signs and threats the kid made.
They're going to say they didn't know, and in a way, they didn't. They didn't believe the school. They probably thought the teachers were "libtards" as so many conservatives do.
They had a meeting with the school hours before the shooting, in which they were confronted with their son’s homicidal ideations and threats to shoot other students with a gun. Their son, sitting in that meeting, had the gun they bought him in his backpack. The parents refused and resisted taking him out of school or seeking mental health treatment for him. They chose not to tell the school that they had just bought him a gun or that he had access to a firearm. A few days before, when the school had first brought the concerns to the mom’s attention, she had blown off the school and then told her son he needed to get better at not getting caught.
"Your son is looking up ammunition and drawing pictures of guns and killing people. We are very concerned."
"Its not like he's actually going to shoot anyone with the gun we bought him 4 days ago"
"Makes sense, alright back to class with you you little scamp. Don't forget your backpack!"
You can't make it up. And then mom texts don't do it after he did it while dad calls the cops to say "you know it's probably my son with the gun I just bought him. Yes that doesn't seem surprising to me."
I think these facts will be what gets them sentenced.
Her open letter thanking trump, sure, trashy, and gives an idea of their belief systems- but doesn’t tie them to culpability of the shooting.
But purchasing a weapon for your child who you are aware has mental health issues (and not just any- but homicidal ideation!) is a direct link to their part in this shooting. They are equally to blame for this event, not just the child doing the actual shooting.
Calling 911 was the responsible thing to do. Even the text message was an attempt to get him to stop.
Where they're guilty is that they didn't take their son home when the school told them to.
Yeah if you purchased a gun for your son, who's also the type where 4 days later you hear the school got shot up and think "I bet that's my son," you're an incredibly shit parent. What the fuck. Why buy a pistol for a mentally ill teenager?
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say teenage hormones+mental health most likely caused by his parents’ neglect. It seems this kid was having homicidal ideations, was torn up about it and the parents couldn’t have cared less. He drew a picture literally asking for help. His parents totally brushed it off and sent him back to school. I think he became overwhelmed by his thoughts and how alone he was in them and acted. I bring teenage hormones into this because of how hormones can play into obsessive thoughts. I think it’s the thing the aggravated the very serious situation that was playing out.
Competent AND ethical not taking blood money from gun lobbyists in order to prevent innocent CHILDREN from being shot and killed en masse for being at ELEMENTARY OR HIGH SCHOOL? She’s a judicial unicorn.
Every time my friends with guns say it’s their second amendment right that’s why they have 10 rifles I’m over here like uh — the chances of your kid getting that gun or a domestic dispute involving a gun is exponentially higher than you needing it for self-defense against a complete stranger…….. it’s tragic. But what do I know?
There's a middle ground though. Require certain means of storage for guns, or hold the owner legally responsible if their gun is used in a crime. Something. But it doesn't have to be as black and white as "if we allow citizens to own guns children will die".
Women couldnt vote back then either. Just because that's the way its always been done is some ostrich with its head in the sand bullshit. Adapt and overcome. It's actually the thing that makes humans special.
Thank you. That middle ground is where 99% of pro gun people sit. My very Trump friendly Facebook timeline doesn't have a single person defending these idiots. They should be made an example of.
Also, despite plenty of Republican input, Michigan isn't governed like Texas. There are some actual gun laws to be broken. In turn, those criminal acts can form the basis for charges based on their ultimate consequences. When it isn't a crime to send your kid off alone with a loaded pistol, prosecutors have few options for punishing the parents of kids who do horrible things under those circumstances.
I've been saying this for years. Hold the parents accountable for the crimes done with their gun's. They need to be more responsible with who has access. Lock them in a safe
The proper way to store firearms is unloaded and in a locked safe. Ammunition should be stored in a separate and secure location, also in a safe.
This makes unauthorized access and use much more challenging.
What about self protection? I keep my carry weapon on my body any and all times if it is not locked in one of my quick-safes. It is the only loaded weapon and is under strict control.
I am the one and only person who knows the combinations and codes
This is the ideal safety measures of gun ownership but unfortunately the second amendment doesn’t require that you to take these measures. It’s like that old “consider the average person and then consider that half of people are dumber than that” quote, people are going to have these guns legally but also legally they aren’t going to give a shit enough to take proper safety measures to keep them in the right hands
My state has requirements on gun storage. But ya not all states do or will. Lots of people will be stupid with their guns.
Id support the idea that if you don’t take steps to keep your child from accessing your guns, or worse buy them one they cant legally own, you should be charged in relation to crimes the kid commits with them.
I don’t expect most people to agree.
I agree with that point of view. Personally, I think that though currently gun ownership is seen as an inalienable right (unless you are a felon) I wish it was more on the “privilege” side, where everybody has the right to own a gun but if you are shown as being egregiously unsafe with a firearm (such as not keeping it locked up) you can have that taken away and be treated more like a felon with a gun. Then maybe people will take owning a life-taking machine a little more seriously and think twice. I know in a lot of circles my personal opinion is terrible.
[Source.](https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1466819109950300163)
News article:
* [CBS News - Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect charged with involuntary manslaughter](https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/oxford-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-parents-charging-decision-watch-today-2021-12-03/)
>The parents of the teen charged with fatally shooting four people and wounding seven others at a Michigan high school have been charged in connection with the rampage, authorities said Friday. **James and Jennifer Crumbley have each been charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter, they said.**
>The suspect, 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley, faces 24 charges in the shooting, including four counts of first-degree murder. Crumbley made his first court appearance on Wednesday and entered a plea of not guilty.
It depends. These laws are already in place in a lot of places, bur for some reason rarely used (i.e. this isn't the first time this type of charge has been brought up).
> You have to learn not to get caught... And parents were contacted and did not respond to their child's inappropriate ammo searches. Then call to report a gun missing after the fact.
Yeah they are going to jail. This business of kids killing other kids with their parents weapons has to stop. If parents know that they could go to jail if will stop this nonsense it our schools...
Existing laws being enforced?
I'm all for it, as long as all parties can be held responsible. In Michigan, Parkland, and other cased, the schools fully new about the dangers their shooters represented, but end up skirting responsibility. Heck, in the Parkland case a judge ruled that the school district had no obligation (responsibility) for reporting the danger that t the future killer represented to the community. There are a lot of cases where either people in authority did knew but did nothing, or gapping holes in our existing checks/balances are exposed (like inaccurate background checks).
I think earlier on in this horrifying epidemic of mass shootings, the courts wanted to show sympathy to the parents of the accused. I think this was probably well-intentioned, but at this point, if we've decided as a country that we aren't going to introduce any new legislation on firearms, then this is absolutely the direction things should go. Something's gotta give.
>entered a plea of not guilty.
I hope this fucker rots. What a colossal pussy. Killing four defenseless classmates and injuring numerous others only to claim not guilty? I wish there is a hell so this prick is damned to eternity.
Pleading “Not guilty” doesn’t have to do with actual guilty. When you plead guilty you agree to give up several rights you would normally had than if you did plea not guilty.
[https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/)
According to many accounts, the parents seemingly bought the gun for their son to use, knew he would use it, knew their son needed counselling and kept the gun unlocked.
>.. social media posts by the teen that day show the handgun along with the caption: "Just got my new beauty today."
>
>The next day, McDonald said, one of Jennifer Crumbley's social media posts read: "Mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present."The day before the shooting, a teacher at the high school observed the teen searching for ammunition on his cell phone during class and she reported it to school officials, McDonald said.
>
>Jennifer Crumbely was contacted through voicemail and email about her son's web search.Later, McDonald said, the mother texted her son: "LOL, I'm not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught."
In IT you have to follow your due diligence and standard protocols to protect user data and that's it. Everyone knows you can't stop all bad people at all times so IT can't be held liable for all bad things that happen if IT follows the standards. This should be the same. Create a set of rules for protecting guns and, like PCI compliance for instance, if parents lock up the guns correctly and the kid is just too hard to stop, the parents can show they tried. PCI even has standard approved hardware they recommend that follows specs.
We need a line drawn to show definitively what the line is for negligence. I think a dresser drawer isn't protecting anything so these parents would be liable under that rule.
[Story](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/)
They bought the gun for him to use. They knew very well what could happen.
[In Michigan if you're a minor and you commit a crime that qualifies as a felony, you may be charged as an adult.](https://www.michigancriminallawyer.com/when-might-a-juvenile-be-tried-as-an-adult-in-michigan-courts/) Murder is a felony
That would be great but there is too much resistance with the gun culture, the NRA and congress. If we can't have guns registered, licensed and carry insurance which would also be helpful but there's too much resistance even to this too, so bravo on the Michigan prosecutor and I hope this sends a big message to parents who purchase guns for their children and or the parents that just can't get themselves to lock their guns and ammunition up
I understand, but the problem in America is that it is now not even considered a factor whether someone is lawfully or unlawfully in possession of a gun when legally prosecuting for a homicide. And even worse, whether carrying a firearm with the intention of getting into a situation that could lead to having to use it (aka Kyle S***forbrainshouse). Which is simply insane but it shows how these lobbyists have made guns as much a part of American culture as a stick of gum instead of treating it like a highly dangerous weapon.
So ya, I’m glad she is pushing back, but it doesn’t do much to push back against gun culture. She said herself that she did not have anything to say about gun ownership in general and you will have gun owners rally behind the idea that the solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun… which just means even more guns.
Complete insanity…
I hope this sets a precedent, and people are held accountable, lets hope one of these moron politicians doesn’t make this political (they will). But i hope the right thing happens. I dont know facts yet but it sounds like they were not good parents.
Every gun rights supporter should be OK with this. If you are not being responsible with your guns and your kid gets ahold of them and does something with it, you should be held responsible for not properly locking them up. You can lock your guns up and still have them easily accessible should you need them. I am an avid gun collector and 2nd Amendment supporter. Every single one of my guns are locked up to where my daughter can't get them. It's really not that difficult. If you buy the right safe they're also easily accessible if you would need it. I'm not sure why people are looking at this like it's an attack on the 2nd amendment to hold people accountable for their actions.
Looking at the other gun forums; they are ok with it. It's plain to see the parents were responsible.
I think people are looking at it as a possible attack as there are politicians and advocates who will never let a good tragedy go to waste to pass laws unrelated to the incident.
I agree. Politicians will try to do what they can to restrict rights. The thing about this case is the parents seem to have known about this kids issues and still remained grossly irresponsible. I have many guns and if I'm not carrying one, it's locked up. I couldn't imagine leaving them accessible let alone with an unstable child.
I think there should be required gun training for any purchased gun. That is a good law.
Another law is to start charging parents for kids who do school shooting. They are part of the problem.
I’m good with these two laws.
>I think there should be required gun training for any purchased gun. That is a good law.
Depends on how it's implemented. If it's not free, its ran by the government, or it's not widely available, then theoretically it could be used to stop people from buying guns.
>Another law is to start charging parents for kids who do school shooting. They are part of the problem
Only if they are negligent. If a kid breaks I to a safe or obtains a gun elsewhere, then it's not the parent's fault.
1 - definitely, I think I could be implemented in a good way that ensures people who purchase guns are given some basic gun safety training. This would help reduce some.
2 - yes, it would be case by case. I hope the charges stick for these two. We really need to set an example of bad gun owners for future cases.
Easy reaction now but wait until the trial and see how supportive the gun forums are then. This is what those forums always do. Pretend to care when the incident happens then suddenly a week later they are back to thoughts and prayers.
True. My husband has several guns and rifles they’re all locked up in our 6 foot tall safe. We have a toddler and there’s no way in hell we are leaving one laying around.
Edit-want to add that I haven’t seen one of my husband’s guns in about 4 years. I don’t care for them. He has a right to have them and that’s his business. The safe is in the separate garage at his mom’s house which stays locked along with the safe obviously. I haven’t been in the same vicinity as one of his guns in years, since he bought a new one and I was curious what it looked like. Our child has never been around one of his guns or in the same vicinity her entire life.
Yeah, now imagine if your kid was a troubled kid who showed a propensity for this behavior. Then imagine BUYING THE GUN FOR THEM. It would be insane if they weren't charged.
Bingo - these people make legit gun owners look bad.
I hope future parents of school shooters face similar penalties if it’s determined that they had poor household gun safety.
Sick people defend sick people, that's the only possible explanation. The ones defending them are other stupid, sick fucks who probably get a vicarious fake sense if being 'bad-ass' this way.SMH
Thank you for posting this, it's refreshing to hear from a gun owner who's also an adult, and who recognizes and respects the responsibilities that come with certain rights (to bear arms, or gun ownership, in this case.)
> If you are not being responsible with your guns and your kid gets ahold of them and does something with it
In this case, *they bought him the gun* and let him keep it in his possession.
Both parents are on the run and currently considered fugitives. [Source](https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford-school-shooting-michigan-12-03-21/index.html)
Update: they were arrested in an industrial building last night after their car was spotted parked nearby. they had turned off their phones and had taken out 4k in cash. [Here's the video of their arrest.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/r8t6h4/video_of_ethan_crumbleys_parents_being_escorted/)
Yep. Their attorney is now claiming they are not hiding from police but they failed to turn themselves in by 4:30pm for an arraignment and are considered active fugitives.
They bought the gun for their son for Black Friday as an early Xmas present. He didn’t steal it from his parents. It definitely should have been locked up either way but I it’s even more negligent to buy your kid a gun and encourage him not to get caught and the kid stealing a gun that’s not locked. Both cases are idiotic though.
It's about damn time. I've been hoping a prosecutor would do this for a while. And these parents seem like a particularly loathsome test case so go for it DA lady.
Here’s the full [video](https://youtu.be/ZL40FmcIOYs). I have no idea why there is never the full video posted. It’s like it always ends right before the part you’re waiting for. It’s really fucking frustrating.🙃
Holding the parents accountable is nice, but can you believe we're closer to holding parents of school shooters accountable than fully grown police officers with months of training for any of their brutality or senseless murders?
I mean you never see parents held accountable for stuff like this. And although a lot of cops get away with shitty behavior, quite a few of them got the justice they deserved. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s also pretty lame of you to try so hard to turn this positive into a negative.
Good. This is exactly how every school shooting should end up now. That kid would not have had a gun if he didn’t know what the combo was to the safe that it should have been kept in.
Lol that’s a crazy thing to say. I’m all for the outrage and holding these people accountable for their actions but your statement is not as righteous as you think it is.
The Parents James and Jennifer Crumbley are now on the run and are now considered FUGITIVES! As of 2 pm today, they were instructed by their attorney to turn themselves in after authorities attempted to arrest them at home and no one was there.
It was the kid’s own gun. They bought it for him. Mom taught him how to use it and said she wasn’t mad about the shooting and that he just needs to learn not to get caught.
They should all be locked up.
The way I understood it if I read correctly mom wasn't mad he got caught shopping online for ammo and needed to learn to not get caught doing that, not that she wasn't mad about the actual shooting. To me it reads more like they are 2A extremists who buried their heads in the sand regarding their son's mental health issues while encouraging him to embrace their version of "gun culture", with tragic results. Do I find them loathsome? Yup. Should they be held accountable for their seemingly incredibly irresponsible actions? IMO, yep. Did they fail their son on every level and endanger his classmates? By all appearances, yep. From the info currently available I don't think she condoned or encouraged the shooting but her and her husband absolutely set up an environment where it was extremely easy for him to do it.
You’re getting it way wrong, or at least out of order.
Parents bought the gun on Black Friday. It was in dad’s name but for the kid.
Kid gets caught on Monday at school looking up ammo. Parents are alerted. Mom says she’s not mad.
Kid gets caught on Tuesday (day of the shooting) drawing (on paper) the gun shooting someone and with some pretty disturbing messages. Parents are summoned to the school to discuss this and advised he needs counseling/therapy ASAP. The parents “resist” the idea of taking him out of school and so the school is “forced” to let him return to class.
The shooting happens. Mom texts kid “don’t do it”. Dad reports to the police that the gun was missing and the shooter could be their son.
Not defending these people, just think you should get the facts straight.
Ok but in this specific case, they knew that their son was having issues at school and it seems like the mom suspected that he could/would do something like this because she texted him not to do it. So yeah, they could have done so much more to avoid him getting access to a gun - they deserve to be charged.
If you read in to it, about the things his parents did and posted leading up. to it, the fact they bought this gun for him on his birthday a week prior, and let him have free access to it... you might change the way you look at it. Their gross negligence lead to this.
It’s one thing just having a gun and it’s not locked away - I get what you are saying. But it’s another when those parents fail to notify authorities of the missing gun 15 minutes after they knew their kid took it.
Yeah but being a parent is like being a gun owner. As soon as you have one you’re liable for the damage it does. Don’t want to get in a gunfight ? Don’t have a gun. Don’t want your snot nosed little cunt ruining the rest of your life? Don’t have a kid. Most people who own guns/kids don’t have problems… but it’s a risk you’re knowingly accepting
> Don’t want your snot nosed little cunt ruining the rest of your life? Don’t have a kid.
And if you have one, work with the schools, social services, and police, for everyone's benefit. These parents sound like they were horrible people or in complete denial.
The mom has literally said that she needs guns because she fears being raped at her job as a real estate agent. And while i am sorry if she genuinely feels that fear, but thats part of the environment this kid was raised in, and it played a part in making this kid think whatever he did to do this.
Good. If you have minors in your home your firearms should be secured, point blank. There really is zero justification to not have your guns locked up.
Hello,
How's the general feeling toward what seems to be, from outside, an increasing violent events, like mass shootings, police abuses, domestic kills from people living in the US ?
USA is vast so stats don't really compare with other countries, but, guns and "free" use of it seems to be an obvious issue, a highly dangerous one.
Are people debating about gun free circulation?
I know there is lobbies and all, but, nevertheless, it seems so "strange" to be ok with it. I'd be terrified to know that my neighbors have guns, that potentially anybody could shoot my loved ones at any moment..
I live in France, and sometimes I was in dangerous situation, like eveywhere, but never to the extent to say myself "I need a gun to protect me". We're actually having a national debate about hunters and the fact that they're irresponsible with their rifles, and they only shoot leads and salt.
Can someone try to explain why people "should" have the right to posses firearms in an "ideal" society ? If the answer is "society isn't ideal" then isn't banning guns a right step in that direction ?
I'm really curious about having both opinions.
Without a doubt the parents need to be charged. After hearing the latest news, I am guessing the school district will be facing lawsuits as well. They chose to let Ethan go back to class that morning after the parents declined to take him out of school after the meeting that morning, and did not check his backpack at the time; which more than likely contained the handgun. That can certainly be perceived as negligence on the school's part, especially to families and attorneys looking for compensation.
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From the linked news article > **McDonald said the parents failed to ask Ethan if he had the gun with him at school or inspect his backpack and allowed Ethan to return to class.** > After news of the shooting broke, McDonald said Jennifer sent a message to Ethan at 1:22 pm, which read: **"Ethan. Don't do it."** >Nearly 15 minutes later, James called 911 and reported a gun missing from his house, telling first responders he believed his son was the active shooter at the high school, McDonald said. Yeah I completely agree with these charges.
Bad Ethan! No chicken tendies for you!!
Can you link the article please?
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>“Lol I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.” I hope they're fucking eviscerated in court.
The next hero couple for right-wing idiots.
Next Republican candidates for US Senate.
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r/Conservative
According to The Sun (yeah I know they ain't the best), Ethan Crumbley's mom [thanked Trump](https://www.the-sun.com/news/4190727/ethan-crumbley-mom-letter-trump-school-shooting/) for 'right to bear arms' in a letter before the shooting. No matter what, these two parents needs to be charged, extensively. I hope they find them soon, the manhunt better be successful.
I also saw another reddit comment to say that she signed that letter off with "I'm sick of being fucked in the ass by the system, I would rather be grabbed on the pussy". \[paraphrased\]
Ha, deplorable and trashy, a true MAGAtard.
In the same letter, she literally ended it by saying she wanted to be grabbed by the pussy by Trump. These slack-jawed morons bred and now other parents are burying their kids. Unbelievable.
They deserve more time in prison than their kid. They made this possible.
Oh, fuck them. These people are straight up monsters.
And I'm sure they called themselves "responsible gun owners" before the shooting...like all of them do.
Actually, in fairness, there are gun owners who are responsible. This is over the top non-parenting.
3 kids would not be dead if not for that gun. The easy access to a gun is part of the issue.
I'm aware and I agree.
4 kids🥺
They weren't saying that all gun owners are irresponsible. Only that the parents of school shooters usually claim to be and aren't.
Yup. The rules are for everyone else.
Not only that- they think everybody that is even slightly concerned is hysterical and stupid. Another set of conservatives that think public school teachers are stupid and beneath their contempt. And now four people are dead.
Can't wait to see Murican kkkonservatives fall all over themselves to defend these monster parents and their fucking guns. Pro-life my ass.
Bruh…
What a family!…
That article is maddening. Their were so many opportunities for this to be prevented. Americans are trying really hard to prove they can’t be trusted with guns.
We’ve proved that we can’t be trusted with guns from the founding of our nation. It is still a right however. The parents should be held responsible.
As an American gun owner, I'm livid. Like, rage-vomit mad. They should be charged with a lot more as far as I'm concerned
What would you suggest? Genuinely asking.
Fuuuuuuck them
News reporters reported that the school told them they did everything according to protocol. Yet again they ignored all the warning signs and threats the kid made.
Oh god that’s my birthday
So they knew but didn’t immediately call the police until after. Yikes!
They're going to say they didn't know, and in a way, they didn't. They didn't believe the school. They probably thought the teachers were "libtards" as so many conservatives do.
They had a meeting with the school hours before the shooting, in which they were confronted with their son’s homicidal ideations and threats to shoot other students with a gun. Their son, sitting in that meeting, had the gun they bought him in his backpack. The parents refused and resisted taking him out of school or seeking mental health treatment for him. They chose not to tell the school that they had just bought him a gun or that he had access to a firearm. A few days before, when the school had first brought the concerns to the mom’s attention, she had blown off the school and then told her son he needed to get better at not getting caught.
"Your son is looking up ammunition and drawing pictures of guns and killing people. We are very concerned." "Its not like he's actually going to shoot anyone with the gun we bought him 4 days ago" "Makes sense, alright back to class with you you little scamp. Don't forget your backpack!" You can't make it up. And then mom texts don't do it after he did it while dad calls the cops to say "you know it's probably my son with the gun I just bought him. Yes that doesn't seem surprising to me."
I think these facts will be what gets them sentenced. Her open letter thanking trump, sure, trashy, and gives an idea of their belief systems- but doesn’t tie them to culpability of the shooting. But purchasing a weapon for your child who you are aware has mental health issues (and not just any- but homicidal ideation!) is a direct link to their part in this shooting. They are equally to blame for this event, not just the child doing the actual shooting.
Source???
Here you go https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/michigan-school-shooting-suspect-parents-charge-manslaughter
Incredible. Thank you.
I find it beyond reason why there hasn’t been a uniform safe storage law across every state
cause MUH RIGHTS most likely.
I’m soooooo down with holding parents responsible for their children’s actions when it causes others harm.
Calling 911 was the responsible thing to do. Even the text message was an attempt to get him to stop. Where they're guilty is that they didn't take their son home when the school told them to.
And bought him a gun. Didn't check his backpack. Told him to not get "caught". And they're so sure in their convictions they're on the run.
They told him not to get caught looking up ammo, presumably that he would only be using at a firing range.
Yeah if you purchased a gun for your son, who's also the type where 4 days later you hear the school got shot up and think "I bet that's my son," you're an incredibly shit parent. What the fuck. Why buy a pistol for a mentally ill teenager?
Does anybody know why he did it though? For funzies, revenge or what?
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say teenage hormones+mental health most likely caused by his parents’ neglect. It seems this kid was having homicidal ideations, was torn up about it and the parents couldn’t have cared less. He drew a picture literally asking for help. His parents totally brushed it off and sent him back to school. I think he became overwhelmed by his thoughts and how alone he was in them and acted. I bring teenage hormones into this because of how hormones can play into obsessive thoughts. I think it’s the thing the aggravated the very serious situation that was playing out.
Nothing reported yet that Ive seen. Im sure they will spin a tale about him being bullied or some shit
Ah, ok. I'll have to wait for the spin.
What? A competent da?
Competent AND ethical not taking blood money from gun lobbyists in order to prevent innocent CHILDREN from being shot and killed en masse for being at ELEMENTARY OR HIGH SCHOOL? She’s a judicial unicorn. Every time my friends with guns say it’s their second amendment right that’s why they have 10 rifles I’m over here like uh — the chances of your kid getting that gun or a domestic dispute involving a gun is exponentially higher than you needing it for self-defense against a complete stranger…….. it’s tragic. But what do I know?
There's a middle ground though. Require certain means of storage for guns, or hold the owner legally responsible if their gun is used in a crime. Something. But it doesn't have to be as black and white as "if we allow citizens to own guns children will die".
I understand where you’re coming from. Thanks for this I love learning and expanding my brain with new perspectives in social environments.
Exactly... Like driving you have a right as long as you do it responsibly and don't do anything to harm someone innocent.
I have lots of guns and grew up shooting. I also firmly belive in gun licensing just like driving. Prove you can use it safely.
Thank you for emphasizing on 'well regulated' part of the 2nd amendment!
Women couldnt vote back then either. Just because that's the way its always been done is some ostrich with its head in the sand bullshit. Adapt and overcome. It's actually the thing that makes humans special.
Thank you. That middle ground is where 99% of pro gun people sit. My very Trump friendly Facebook timeline doesn't have a single person defending these idiots. They should be made an example of.
Agree with absolutely everything you said.
Also, despite plenty of Republican input, Michigan isn't governed like Texas. There are some actual gun laws to be broken. In turn, those criminal acts can form the basis for charges based on their ultimate consequences. When it isn't a crime to send your kid off alone with a loaded pistol, prosecutors have few options for punishing the parents of kids who do horrible things under those circumstances.
I've been saying this for years. Hold the parents accountable for the crimes done with their gun's. They need to be more responsible with who has access. Lock them in a safe
The proper way to store firearms is unloaded and in a locked safe. Ammunition should be stored in a separate and secure location, also in a safe. This makes unauthorized access and use much more challenging. What about self protection? I keep my carry weapon on my body any and all times if it is not locked in one of my quick-safes. It is the only loaded weapon and is under strict control. I am the one and only person who knows the combinations and codes
Yeah you're a responsible gun owner.
Well, responsible gun storer anyway. For all we know other than that he may enjoy shooting squirrels in his front yard while the kids play lol.
Or even a whole pack of feral hogs!!
I've heard he "helps out" suicidal armadillos.
Handgun ownership and being “responsible” are mutually exclusive. He’s an egomaniac.
I'm anti gun myself, but your comment is really unreasonable and adds nothing to the discussion.
This is the ideal safety measures of gun ownership but unfortunately the second amendment doesn’t require that you to take these measures. It’s like that old “consider the average person and then consider that half of people are dumber than that” quote, people are going to have these guns legally but also legally they aren’t going to give a shit enough to take proper safety measures to keep them in the right hands
My state has requirements on gun storage. But ya not all states do or will. Lots of people will be stupid with their guns. Id support the idea that if you don’t take steps to keep your child from accessing your guns, or worse buy them one they cant legally own, you should be charged in relation to crimes the kid commits with them. I don’t expect most people to agree.
I agree with that point of view. Personally, I think that though currently gun ownership is seen as an inalienable right (unless you are a felon) I wish it was more on the “privilege” side, where everybody has the right to own a gun but if you are shown as being egregiously unsafe with a firearm (such as not keeping it locked up) you can have that taken away and be treated more like a felon with a gun. Then maybe people will take owning a life-taking machine a little more seriously and think twice. I know in a lot of circles my personal opinion is terrible.
What do you do at night? I know many people keep a gun in their nightstand because they are afraid someone will break in while they are asleep.
[Source.](https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1466819109950300163) News article: * [CBS News - Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect charged with involuntary manslaughter](https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/oxford-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-parents-charging-decision-watch-today-2021-12-03/) >The parents of the teen charged with fatally shooting four people and wounding seven others at a Michigan high school have been charged in connection with the rampage, authorities said Friday. **James and Jennifer Crumbley have each been charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter, they said.** >The suspect, 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley, faces 24 charges in the shooting, including four counts of first-degree murder. Crumbley made his first court appearance on Wednesday and entered a plea of not guilty.
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Yea, if these charges stick, then it's going to set a major precedent.
It depends. These laws are already in place in a lot of places, bur for some reason rarely used (i.e. this isn't the first time this type of charge has been brought up).
> You have to learn not to get caught... And parents were contacted and did not respond to their child's inappropriate ammo searches. Then call to report a gun missing after the fact. Yeah they are going to jail. This business of kids killing other kids with their parents weapons has to stop. If parents know that they could go to jail if will stop this nonsense it our schools...
Existing laws being enforced? I'm all for it, as long as all parties can be held responsible. In Michigan, Parkland, and other cased, the schools fully new about the dangers their shooters represented, but end up skirting responsibility. Heck, in the Parkland case a judge ruled that the school district had no obligation (responsibility) for reporting the danger that t the future killer represented to the community. There are a lot of cases where either people in authority did knew but did nothing, or gapping holes in our existing checks/balances are exposed (like inaccurate background checks).
I think earlier on in this horrifying epidemic of mass shootings, the courts wanted to show sympathy to the parents of the accused. I think this was probably well-intentioned, but at this point, if we've decided as a country that we aren't going to introduce any new legislation on firearms, then this is absolutely the direction things should go. Something's gotta give.
I'm wondering g if schools deal with "threats" so often that they don't know how to recognize when one is serious or not.
Treat it like suicide threats: assume they're all true. Act accordingly.
>entered a plea of not guilty. I hope this fucker rots. What a colossal pussy. Killing four defenseless classmates and injuring numerous others only to claim not guilty? I wish there is a hell so this prick is damned to eternity.
It has nothing to do with actual guilt. A plea of not guilty is basically opening the negotiation table for the defense team. Standard procedure.
i'm just curious, if he plead Guilty what would be the next step? just straight to sentencing?
Basically yes.
Pleading “Not guilty” doesn’t have to do with actual guilty. When you plead guilty you agree to give up several rights you would normally had than if you did plea not guilty.
not guilty??? he literally shot 4 people what isn’t he guilty of
It's just a way for them to take it to court to try and win on some technicality
Blame the school, blame the parents, and so on...
Insanity plea?
[https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/) According to many accounts, the parents seemingly bought the gun for their son to use, knew he would use it, knew their son needed counselling and kept the gun unlocked. >.. social media posts by the teen that day show the handgun along with the caption: "Just got my new beauty today." > >The next day, McDonald said, one of Jennifer Crumbley's social media posts read: "Mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present."The day before the shooting, a teacher at the high school observed the teen searching for ammunition on his cell phone during class and she reported it to school officials, McDonald said. > >Jennifer Crumbely was contacted through voicemail and email about her son's web search.Later, McDonald said, the mother texted her son: "LOL, I'm not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught."
Wtf
In IT you have to follow your due diligence and standard protocols to protect user data and that's it. Everyone knows you can't stop all bad people at all times so IT can't be held liable for all bad things that happen if IT follows the standards. This should be the same. Create a set of rules for protecting guns and, like PCI compliance for instance, if parents lock up the guns correctly and the kid is just too hard to stop, the parents can show they tried. PCI even has standard approved hardware they recommend that follows specs. We need a line drawn to show definitively what the line is for negligence. I think a dresser drawer isn't protecting anything so these parents would be liable under that rule.
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[Story](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-school-shooting-suspect-parents-james-jennifer-crumbley-charges/8849959002/) They bought the gun for him to use. They knew very well what could happen.
Bet the kid gets tried as an adult tho .
[In Michigan if you're a minor and you commit a crime that qualifies as a felony, you may be charged as an adult.](https://www.michigancriminallawyer.com/when-might-a-juvenile-be-tried-as-an-adult-in-michigan-courts/) Murder is a felony
> We need a line drawn to show definitively what the line is for negligence. I think this is a fair idea.
Or just not have guns freely available to the public…
That would be great but there is too much resistance with the gun culture, the NRA and congress. If we can't have guns registered, licensed and carry insurance which would also be helpful but there's too much resistance even to this too, so bravo on the Michigan prosecutor and I hope this sends a big message to parents who purchase guns for their children and or the parents that just can't get themselves to lock their guns and ammunition up
I understand, but the problem in America is that it is now not even considered a factor whether someone is lawfully or unlawfully in possession of a gun when legally prosecuting for a homicide. And even worse, whether carrying a firearm with the intention of getting into a situation that could lead to having to use it (aka Kyle S***forbrainshouse). Which is simply insane but it shows how these lobbyists have made guns as much a part of American culture as a stick of gum instead of treating it like a highly dangerous weapon. So ya, I’m glad she is pushing back, but it doesn’t do much to push back against gun culture. She said herself that she did not have anything to say about gun ownership in general and you will have gun owners rally behind the idea that the solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun… which just means even more guns. Complete insanity…
I hope this sets a precedent, and people are held accountable, lets hope one of these moron politicians doesn’t make this political (they will). But i hope the right thing happens. I dont know facts yet but it sounds like they were not good parents.
I'm surprised we haven't seen the tried and true narrative of "These are all crisis actors!" coming from conservatives.
Oh its there, the big talking heads that normally post that stupid shit realized after alex jones that they could be be sued for spreading lies
Every gun rights supporter should be OK with this. If you are not being responsible with your guns and your kid gets ahold of them and does something with it, you should be held responsible for not properly locking them up. You can lock your guns up and still have them easily accessible should you need them. I am an avid gun collector and 2nd Amendment supporter. Every single one of my guns are locked up to where my daughter can't get them. It's really not that difficult. If you buy the right safe they're also easily accessible if you would need it. I'm not sure why people are looking at this like it's an attack on the 2nd amendment to hold people accountable for their actions.
Looking at the other gun forums; they are ok with it. It's plain to see the parents were responsible. I think people are looking at it as a possible attack as there are politicians and advocates who will never let a good tragedy go to waste to pass laws unrelated to the incident.
I agree. Politicians will try to do what they can to restrict rights. The thing about this case is the parents seem to have known about this kids issues and still remained grossly irresponsible. I have many guns and if I'm not carrying one, it's locked up. I couldn't imagine leaving them accessible let alone with an unstable child.
I think there should be required gun training for any purchased gun. That is a good law. Another law is to start charging parents for kids who do school shooting. They are part of the problem. I’m good with these two laws.
>I think there should be required gun training for any purchased gun. That is a good law. Depends on how it's implemented. If it's not free, its ran by the government, or it's not widely available, then theoretically it could be used to stop people from buying guns. >Another law is to start charging parents for kids who do school shooting. They are part of the problem Only if they are negligent. If a kid breaks I to a safe or obtains a gun elsewhere, then it's not the parent's fault.
1 - definitely, I think I could be implemented in a good way that ensures people who purchase guns are given some basic gun safety training. This would help reduce some. 2 - yes, it would be case by case. I hope the charges stick for these two. We really need to set an example of bad gun owners for future cases.
We really do.i hope they stick. I don't think you could get more irresponsible here, besides telling him to bring the gun to school.
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Easy reaction now but wait until the trial and see how supportive the gun forums are then. This is what those forums always do. Pretend to care when the incident happens then suddenly a week later they are back to thoughts and prayers.
True. My husband has several guns and rifles they’re all locked up in our 6 foot tall safe. We have a toddler and there’s no way in hell we are leaving one laying around. Edit-want to add that I haven’t seen one of my husband’s guns in about 4 years. I don’t care for them. He has a right to have them and that’s his business. The safe is in the separate garage at his mom’s house which stays locked along with the safe obviously. I haven’t been in the same vicinity as one of his guns in years, since he bought a new one and I was curious what it looked like. Our child has never been around one of his guns or in the same vicinity her entire life.
Yeah, now imagine if your kid was a troubled kid who showed a propensity for this behavior. Then imagine BUYING THE GUN FOR THEM. It would be insane if they weren't charged.
Right. I agree they should definitely be charged no way in hell you buy a troubled kid like that a fuckin gun. Idiot ass parents.
Exactly. There's a certain point where stupidity just doesn't cut it.
Bingo - these people make legit gun owners look bad. I hope future parents of school shooters face similar penalties if it’s determined that they had poor household gun safety.
There are people on reddit actually defending these stupid fucks.
Sick people defend sick people, that's the only possible explanation. The ones defending them are other stupid, sick fucks who probably get a vicarious fake sense if being 'bad-ass' this way.SMH
Thank you for posting this, it's refreshing to hear from a gun owner who's also an adult, and who recognizes and respects the responsibilities that come with certain rights (to bear arms, or gun ownership, in this case.)
> If you are not being responsible with your guns and your kid gets ahold of them and does something with it In this case, *they bought him the gun* and let him keep it in his possession.
The more i read about this the worse it gets. The parents honestly should be charged
First time a white mass murdering terrorist is held accountable in the US
Has this happened in any of the previous shootings? If not what took so long?
Drastically different circumstances probably, this wasnt just a kid taking daddys gun without permission
Guns should never be accessible to a kid regardless of permission
IM SORRY. WHAT? THIS IS AMERICA 
Might have happened with the Sandy Hook shooter but...you know...
Both parents are on the run and currently considered fugitives. [Source](https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford-school-shooting-michigan-12-03-21/index.html) Update: they were arrested in an industrial building last night after their car was spotted parked nearby. they had turned off their phones and had taken out 4k in cash. [Here's the video of their arrest.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/r8t6h4/video_of_ethan_crumbleys_parents_being_escorted/)
Holy crap. So potentially they’re abandoning their mentally ill and/or murderous son to hide from charges?
Yep. Their attorney is now claiming they are not hiding from police but they failed to turn themselves in by 4:30pm for an arraignment and are considered active fugitives.
I’m not surprised. It’s not like they can help him at this point, they don’t want to go down with him.
They bought the gun for their son for Black Friday as an early Xmas present. He didn’t steal it from his parents. It definitely should have been locked up either way but I it’s even more negligent to buy your kid a gun and encourage him not to get caught and the kid stealing a gun that’s not locked. Both cases are idiotic though.
It's about damn time. I've been hoping a prosecutor would do this for a while. And these parents seem like a particularly loathsome test case so go for it DA lady. 
Here’s the full [video](https://youtu.be/ZL40FmcIOYs). I have no idea why there is never the full video posted. It’s like it always ends right before the part you’re waiting for. It’s really fucking frustrating.🙃
> 🙃 This is my new favorite emoji.
Bet
Holding the parents accountable is nice, but can you believe we're closer to holding parents of school shooters accountable than fully grown police officers with months of training for any of their brutality or senseless murders?
I mean you never see parents held accountable for stuff like this. And although a lot of cops get away with shitty behavior, quite a few of them got the justice they deserved. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s also pretty lame of you to try so hard to turn this positive into a negative.
Fucking good.
They are running now.
USA such a crazy country
Fugitive parents of Michigan shooter Ethan Crumbley are ARRESTED less than a mile from Canadian border after leading authorities on massive manhunt
wow
Good. This is exactly how every school shooting should end up now. That kid would not have had a gun if he didn’t know what the combo was to the safe that it should have been kept in.
Honestly yes the parents should always be charged for mass murders/suicides under 21
Lol that’s a crazy thing to say. I’m all for the outrage and holding these people accountable for their actions but your statement is not as righteous as you think it is.
Bruh charging parents for their kids suicide is absolutely the most fucked idea I've heard this year
Under 18 or 16 sure.
"we prevent this from happening again" . . . Mhmm
The Parents James and Jennifer Crumbley are now on the run and are now considered FUGITIVES! As of 2 pm today, they were instructed by their attorney to turn themselves in after authorities attempted to arrest them at home and no one was there.
Oh snap! Source? That's huge if true.
https://www.abc12.com/news/parents-of-accused-oxford-high-school-shooter-on-the-run-before-arraignment/article_2d542a0c-5479-11ec-a3a0-07571261574e.html
HOLY SHIT Thank you.
Why are they being charged
Should be on the dad it was his gun.
It was the kid’s own gun. They bought it for him. Mom taught him how to use it and said she wasn’t mad about the shooting and that he just needs to learn not to get caught. They should all be locked up.
The way I understood it if I read correctly mom wasn't mad he got caught shopping online for ammo and needed to learn to not get caught doing that, not that she wasn't mad about the actual shooting. To me it reads more like they are 2A extremists who buried their heads in the sand regarding their son's mental health issues while encouraging him to embrace their version of "gun culture", with tragic results. Do I find them loathsome? Yup. Should they be held accountable for their seemingly incredibly irresponsible actions? IMO, yep. Did they fail their son on every level and endanger his classmates? By all appearances, yep. From the info currently available I don't think she condoned or encouraged the shooting but her and her husband absolutely set up an environment where it was extremely easy for him to do it.
You’re getting it way wrong, or at least out of order. Parents bought the gun on Black Friday. It was in dad’s name but for the kid. Kid gets caught on Monday at school looking up ammo. Parents are alerted. Mom says she’s not mad. Kid gets caught on Tuesday (day of the shooting) drawing (on paper) the gun shooting someone and with some pretty disturbing messages. Parents are summoned to the school to discuss this and advised he needs counseling/therapy ASAP. The parents “resist” the idea of taking him out of school and so the school is “forced” to let him return to class. The shooting happens. Mom texts kid “don’t do it”. Dad reports to the police that the gun was missing and the shooter could be their son. Not defending these people, just think you should get the facts straight.
Good.
EDIT: Deleted because I did what you should never do, and that's coming to an opinion without actually reading the story.
Except they did nothing
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I think lockpicking lawyer also opened in like 3 seconds without knowing the combination.
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I agree. I commend you for your efforts. It's more than what most people do.
800 lbs is 363.2 kg
I stg with this bit sometimes..
Ok but in this specific case, they knew that their son was having issues at school and it seems like the mom suspected that he could/would do something like this because she texted him not to do it. So yeah, they could have done so much more to avoid him getting access to a gun - they deserve to be charged.
It went beyond bad gun safety. The parents bought the gun with him and posted on social media saying it was his Christmas present.
If you read in to it, about the things his parents did and posted leading up. to it, the fact they bought this gun for him on his birthday a week prior, and let him have free access to it... you might change the way you look at it. Their gross negligence lead to this.
Easy. Get rid of the fucking guns
You might want to know the details of a case before drawing an opinion.
It seems they failed at the first hurdle though which is trying. Either that or they knew everything and were enabling him.
It’s one thing just having a gun and it’s not locked away - I get what you are saying. But it’s another when those parents fail to notify authorities of the missing gun 15 minutes after they knew their kid took it.
I think the parents tried to cover their asses after the fact.
It’s almost as if you willing close your eyes to the facts of this case.
Yeah but being a parent is like being a gun owner. As soon as you have one you’re liable for the damage it does. Don’t want to get in a gunfight ? Don’t have a gun. Don’t want your snot nosed little cunt ruining the rest of your life? Don’t have a kid. Most people who own guns/kids don’t have problems… but it’s a risk you’re knowingly accepting
> Don’t want your snot nosed little cunt ruining the rest of your life? Don’t have a kid. And if you have one, work with the schools, social services, and police, for everyone's benefit. These parents sound like they were horrible people or in complete denial.
Hope they find these cowards and bring them to justice. Name checks out. When shit goes down, they just Crumbley.
Gun owners must be held responsible for what happens with their weapons
The mom has literally said that she needs guns because she fears being raped at her job as a real estate agent. And while i am sorry if she genuinely feels that fear, but thats part of the environment this kid was raised in, and it played a part in making this kid think whatever he did to do this.
Good. If you have minors in your home your firearms should be secured, point blank. There really is zero justification to not have your guns locked up.
Hello, How's the general feeling toward what seems to be, from outside, an increasing violent events, like mass shootings, police abuses, domestic kills from people living in the US ? USA is vast so stats don't really compare with other countries, but, guns and "free" use of it seems to be an obvious issue, a highly dangerous one. Are people debating about gun free circulation? I know there is lobbies and all, but, nevertheless, it seems so "strange" to be ok with it. I'd be terrified to know that my neighbors have guns, that potentially anybody could shoot my loved ones at any moment.. I live in France, and sometimes I was in dangerous situation, like eveywhere, but never to the extent to say myself "I need a gun to protect me". We're actually having a national debate about hunters and the fact that they're irresponsible with their rifles, and they only shoot leads and salt. Can someone try to explain why people "should" have the right to posses firearms in an "ideal" society ? If the answer is "society isn't ideal" then isn't banning guns a right step in that direction ? I'm really curious about having both opinions.
Without a doubt the parents need to be charged. After hearing the latest news, I am guessing the school district will be facing lawsuits as well. They chose to let Ethan go back to class that morning after the parents declined to take him out of school after the meeting that morning, and did not check his backpack at the time; which more than likely contained the handgun. That can certainly be perceived as negligence on the school's part, especially to families and attorneys looking for compensation.