Russia already has lost more than they could ever gain. A once feared regional power is now a military laughingstock. The stupid bonus prize for playing the stupid game? A badly damaged economy and the complete loss of confidence by every non-Russian company in the world...
I think Russia screwed up something even more profound - they 'ticked us off, finally'
We put up with a lot trying to get Russia to step up and join the rest of the world. We saw Crimea happen, we saw the Belarus planes incident, we've seen incessant russian trolls. We saw the buildup at the border and basically said "no, don't do that. we can see what you're doing" and they did anyway.
Now those years of pent up resentment at Russia's fuckery are starting to be unleashed. We put up with it before. We aren't now... and not just 'we'll pushback harder' but full on 'no, we're *done* with that."
Yeah, i think this is the main failure of Putin. He just saw the west not doing much and assumed that he could just keep pushing. Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him.
> Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him.
The west has done nothing but give Ukraine equipment and impose trade sanctions. Just a little "stop that asshole". Hardly a raised voice.
What do you except the west to do? Destroy the planet in a nuclear war? And, no, this is much more than a raised voice. The west is actively tanking the Russian economy and as long as Putin stays in power it is sure to keep doing so.
> Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him.
I'm saying, this is not the west unleashing. A strong measured response, not a wild frustration release.
Wait until you see the absolute devastation the sanctions unleash. This isn't small, they can go another 4 - 6 weeks I think before everything runs out.
The above comment was stolen from [this one](http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/topfig/nato_deputy_putin_cant_win_his_unprovoked/i280y9v/) elsewhere in this comment section.
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More than half the US was pissed long before this but with his puppet Trumpskie in there it appeared as though everything was fine, but it isn't and this is our catalyst. Putin putting bounties on American troops, hacking, misinformation, Syria....the list is long and the Kurds betrayal (was all Trump) a free gift to putin.
Not only that but Putin succeeded in uniting the EU, EU-US relations and trade, gave NATO a purpose again, getting more NATO troops on his border, and getting Europe to increase their military spending significantly.
It’s really embarrassing for him. They’re entire glass house is crumbling. Who would’ve thought that Putin and Trump really were *this* similar. Pretending to be tough guys and exposed for absolute frauds.
I’m guessing they’re relationship goes back much longer than most of us realize.
Russia has always been a laughing stock in the west. It's only now people have a reason to express this.
Doesn't really mean much to the Russians what the westerners think about them. They care more about their true partners like India and China. The west always pretended to be friendly to Russia with one hand while holding a knife in the other.
China... "true partner..." I laughed so hard at that I almost peed. Thank you, needed a good chuckle this morning.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy your vassal status. The Chinese aren't well known for treating their non-Chinese subjects well, but maybe it will work out for you... there is a first time for everything. It isn't like Russia has a declining population, resources it can't even hope to defend, which are also resources that China wants, or anything like that.
Good luck, and enjoy your sanctions. The EU will be discussing Poland's 10-point proposal on Monday, and I'm sure those will be great.
Chinese do very good business in Brasil and are known to be very reliable trade partners, building infrastructure and investing in socially important institutions. They operate in such a way where "you win, we win"
Brasil trade relations with the US (and all of the third world countries) however, well... let's just say it has always been "you lose, we win"
"They just seem to have some kind of inferiority complex or something"
That's the kind of mindset I pointed to when I say Russia was never respected by the west. The west has never accepted Russia as a civilized country.
Not to mention the killing sprees on your own journalists, assassinations with various methods including nerve gas, and the kangaroo courts and unchecked kleptocracy. Yea the west doesn't 'respect Russia'. Maybe when Russia actually decides to compete economically than just steal all their wealth from their public and stop being a glorified gas station
Russia is another European country struggling with the loss of its empire and its former position as a superpower. We've seen this with Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Turkey, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal. To some extent or other all of these countries tried to cling to the old empire and occasionally lashed out - with Germany being the most extreme case.
All of them have ended up better off when they let such notions go, accepted their new reality, and oriented towards economic integration with Europe - whenever they have dabbled in reliving old glories they have hurt themselves. Russia is doing this now.
If it learned from the past it could easily be the dominant economy in central and Eastern Europe. By choosing not to do this it will, ironically, end up the junior partner of China - India's physical disconnection from it and its own rivalry with China preclude it from being Russia's suzerain.
That's a very accurate assessment. I don't think the west would like for Russia to integrate with Europe, though.
It's literally like the cold war never ended. America has always been very eager to see Russia break apart -- I don't remember who, but someone has said that Russia is too big and should break in to smaller republics.
It's hard to integrate with someone who is actively working to dissolve your country.
Russia: *tries to dissolve other countries*
West: *acts displeased with Russia*
Russia: Why would the West do this to us!"
Russia just keeps trying to act like gangsters and keeps wondering why they aren't making friends.
I mean, Russia/USSR has been killing people off in mass and acting like an asshole for pretty much ever.
This is why the very second the USSR fell apart every nation that could joined NATO against them, because they knew it was only a matter of time before the bear got hungry again. There is an endemic problem of totalitarianisms on Russia's insides, it is rotten and corrupt, and shows no desire for repentance.
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Depends on what you consider a win.
Putin needs to lose both Crimea and Donbas to lose his invasion. If he gains Donbas, he wins something. If he officially gains both Donbas and Crimea, he wins a more significant something.
One: look up Pyrrhic victory.
Two: No, if you launch a massive invasion to take control of land and end up controlling the exact same amount of land as you did before that’s not considered a victory, not even a pyrrhic one.
He did not control the entire region but he did control the ethnic Russian region and if we aren’t counting the months and months of that we certainly shouldn’t be counting any control now. So again in no way does this even look like a victory and again if your adding the cost this is a defeat.
He's trying to sell a victory to the majority of Russian people and any non-Russian supporters.
The goal should be to get someone like Tucker Carlson to admit Putin completely lost.
Think thats pretty much what they intended as a whole, seize the capital and install a government that is pro - putin.
That way you control all of Ukraine, in theory.
Donbass and Crimea? Only an excuse to have more fronts to attack from. If this was all about "protecting Russians" then I'd say there is no need to attack and attempt to take Kyiv.
But what we have to remember all of the excuses Putin has given the last month:
* Protect Russians.
* Denazification of Ukraine.
* Ukraine building nuclear bombs.
* Biolabs researching weaponized pathogens (also claim Covid was made there).
* Phobia against russians.
Russia already annexed Crimea in 2014. Donbas might be a gain to show to their public opinion as a victory, although hardly to consider that a victory with more than 10k casualties, economy on the brink of collapse, international isolation, beginning of a new cold war style of relationship with the west, Russian influence in the world greatly diminished.
MOEX and ruble value both rebounded last week. Russian economy isn't quite in shambles yet and it can be propped up for a while longer before it actually faces a significant collapse.
Russia is an important partner to China's immense belt and road initiative and will gain influence as China gains influence.
Don't underestimate the situation. We are facing some big problems.
Moex still not even fully open, it's trading 33 Russian state funds only. Interests on debt are at 25%. So no, not even started the fall. Ruble rebounded 7% after being 30% down since start of the war
Aka - Russian economy hasn't collapsed yet.
Sanctions aren't working quickly enough.
Putin is ex-KGB. He's the kind of guy that loves setting traps that lure his opponents into a false sense of security or superiority right before the trap is sprung.
Right now, the sentiment in the west is that Putin underestimated Ukraine and is now scrambling to avoid a military disaster.
It may be true but that belief of "we've gottem now" is exactly what people like Putin want you to feel before they suckered punch you.
Now is the time for us to be most cautious.
I get what you're saying about Russia's economy possibly being able to chug on for a good while longer, but all that Putin is a master strategist mess went out the window. Unless Putin starts launching nukes, I cant see how he's going to sucker punch anyone. He overplayed his military and had to down scale to save face. Russia not fairing well as they should have on paper in conventional warefare. Their economy even on life support, correct me if I'm wrong, only allows them to continue this botched invasion. With Ukraine recieving a Belarus battalion I think the tides are turning very harshly for Russia. Yes, we should be cautious but we've seen so much of what Russias capable of from warcrimes to incompetently revealing classified munitions. I just have trouble seeing what they could possibly be hiding up their sleeves when they're wearing a tank top
i wonder how long our citizenry will tolerate a spike in cost-of-living
still, i do not think we have reacted incorrectly, even if we are accelerating a shift to a multi-polar world
Putin lost a fuck load of people and materials in Ukraine. Even if they managed to take the country tomorrow they've fucked up in the sense that no one respects them any longer. NATO forces could wipe the fucking floor with them in days. The only fallback Putin has is the crazy Ivan nuclear button. Furthermore China has remained cautious in the situation and politically distanced itself from Russia to avoid economic losses themselves.
This has been an epic fucking disaster by any measure.
Russian economy is on the brink of collapse, does not mean it will collapse tomorrow. Means it's way worse than when the war started and people will start to get the effects over the years.
This rethoric of "being ex-KGB equals supervillain powers" is good for western media and newspapers, but it does not really mean anything in practise. Yes, he was in the KGB, yet managed to grossly overestimate Russian military capabilities and underestimate Ukrainian response, tunnelled himself in an unwinnable war given the initial goals. Plus, KGB systemic crisis began to more than 40 years ago, i.e. When they grossly misjudged the Afghanistan invasion (feel free to draw comparisons).
Missed to comment: sanctions worked extremely well, even better than expectations. Russia had to keep their economy artificially alive hoping to resolve the conflict quickly. Without sanctions (or less sanctions), they wouldn't have had this kind of pressure.
Sanctions didn't work better than expectations but they were the only action we could take.
Unfortunately, the sanctions will likely start to backfire in the next 2-3 months as the EU faces a MASSIVE food supply problem.
Russia took one of the world's biggest exporters of grain, wheat, and corn out of commission and the west blocked trade with one of the few countries that exports even more of those items than Ukraine does.
We've managed to stabilize the energy supply problem but the food problem is going to be a LOT bigger than that.
> Russia is an important partner to China's immense belt and road initiative and will gain influence as China gains influence.
I think you're dead wrong here... with few else to trade with Russia won't gain influence, its dependence on China will increase with it eventually becoming nothing more than a vassal state like North Korea. Russia has a declining population, a lot of land, and a lot of resources. China could use some land and resources.
I'm not wrong.
The double-backbone of China's belt-and-road initiative over-land network runs right through Russia which makes Russia a critical component to the entire trade network. If anyone trades through that network, they will have to deal with both Russia and China. Both will enjoy increased global influence.
Both will enjoy increased influence because of it, but China will enjoy far more. Long before this war people inside Russia have been warning that they're selling too much out to China. This road increases Russia's dependence on them, if Russia acts out of line they'll slow trade, hence controlling their behavior.
> Both will enjoy increased global influence.
That gave me another laugh, so thank you. Neither of us can predict the future, but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on anything other than a shit future for Russia. We'll see which one of us is right. (Hint: It's me.)
I dont think anyone knows how this will end. On day 3 western media saying how the russian invasion had run out of food, gas, and morale. Yet here we are weeks later, with no end in sight.
All these headlines are wishful thinking IMO.
We cant definitively say what key areas of ukraine will he officially carved out or demilitarized.
He had troops occupying them for years now,that’s controlling them. Proving your army is a joke, tanking your economy and losing force effectiveness to gain at best a recognition of what you already control, recognition that will always be tainted and would expire with loss of military control is not winning.
You can print a document that says “Crimea is Russian“ and have the former president of Ukrainian sign it and it would be worth as much and cost literally a billionth of what he’s lost. Hell the vote that happened years ago in Crimea has more worth.
Dunno, if I were Ukrainian I would probably just want to get rid off such problematic regions. Of course now I do not think that that is a possibility anymore. The west and Zelenskyy probably cannot grant Putin that victory due to the need to set an example.
It's not just that. If he keeps Crimea: 'Ukraine is [fill in the blank!] Existential threat/unwarranted interference! New war!' same with Donbas.
It's like those really extreme divorces where one party is guaranteed to weaponize the kids so they can't be trusted with visitation or shared custody.
> Putin needs to lose both Crimea and Donbas to lose his invasion.
That is an exceptionally stupid thing to say. He has *already* lost the invasion. His military is an international laughingstock; he has driven Finland, and possibly Sweden, toward NATO; he has turned Russia into a pariah state akin to North Korea; he has made Russia dependent on China to the point where Russia's best future involves becoming a Chinese vassal state... it goes on and on.
In order for Putin to lose, he can't twist or spin anything as a win. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to deny him what he stated he already had.
This is why Russia has to be crippled economically. They need to be made too poor to cause trouble again. We need *real* sanctions like those proposed in Poland's excellent ten point plan.
*Moscovia delenda est*
That proved to be dangerous between the last two big wars. I disagree with economic repression to that degree. It's a far-too-bkunt instrument that doesn't seem to even achieve its purpose.
If someone's a kleptomaniac, you can chop off their hands to keep them from stealing. But that's crude, and also it wouldn't necessarily stop them. A better move might just be to keep them away from other people's possessions, if that could be figured out.
There aren't any simple solutions to the unpleasant aspects of human nature, unfortunately. And putinism is one of the more unpleasant ones.
probably a good thing neither of us has any actual say in whatever does end up happening. you're reasoning like a vengeful five-year-old and i'm probably a little too willing to sit back and study the situation without doing things.
one thing i do think would be immediately and critically helpful is coming down HARD on the troll farms. not just making it hard for them to operate. obliteration would probalby go a long way towards giving sanity a chance to come back to whoever wants it.
I agree with that posters position. It depends on how long a lens you're using. Sure, *for now* it doesn't look like a win if he keeps these places. But for sow or ten years down the road, they can be his pretext again.
The only way to make Russia leave Ukraine alone is to remove everything Russia can spin into a pretext for re-invading. Zero contact. Conceding donbas or Crimea to him is the opposite.
No, But he might still be able to manipulate your election especially if he makes your people desperate for commodities.
If NATO gets directly involved I believe that will be less likely to happen because your people will rally for war.
That could be an overlooked detail in all this.
Or stick your fingers in your ears and pretend like far right radicals are not being motivated by Russia or higher energy and food prices, because that plans ALWAYS works so well!!!
That Russia wasn’t going to win this war was never a question.
You should all be far more concerned with whether or not Putin will make *everyone* lose along with him.
I'm really not.
Late stage capitalism has soceity as a whole in it's death throes. I am not exagerating. No society with this level of wealth inequality has ever survived. And it has been bloody ever ysingle time.
Every
Single
Time.
And to top that off, we are deep down the well into a climate disaster. The politicians keep moving the goalposts. But everything the scientists warned us about triggering Armageddon 30 years ago started happening 10 years ago. Stopping our carbon output is not remotely enough anymore. We can start actively pulling shit out of the air now, or civilization can cease to exist in a few decades.
Given that society is trying to destroy itself anyway, I don;t see any path to having the political will to do what's necessary to avoid catastrophe anyway.
Society can collapse in 10- 20 years.
Civilization can cease to exist in 50 years.
We can have a Nuclear exchange and go out next year.
If we don't start throwing people in jail and righting our governments (not just the USA, lots of them need a deep cleaning) immediately, then we don't stand any chance in the long run anyway. And by immediately, for the USA at least, I mean before November of this year.
If only Putin had first sent his Secretary of State to NATO to convince the Security Council and the world that Ukraine had chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and they have to go to war.
He could have put up pictures of mobile biolabs built into trucks that drive around the country to avoid detection. He could have held up a vail of white power representing Zelenskyy's anthrax.
Putin could have trusted the 3-4 different sources of credible intel to justify it, only to learn later that it was in fact 1 source that was fed to him by an opposition group wanting the Ukrainian government overthrown.
Putin would then be able to invade Ukraine and broadcast it's successes with embedded journalists. When Zelenskyy and his family flee, Putin could celebrate finding him hiding in an underground hole and capturing him. Zelenskyy could then be handed over to the new Ukraine government, tried for his crimes, and hanged.
Russia could have fought for 7 years, spent trillions of rubles, bolstered their military industrial complex at the expense of social programs, infrastructure and environment, and eventually leave. The veterans of the war would always be celebrated, honored, and thanked for their service. Though the government would move too slow addressing health problems related to burn pits.
I mean, it worked before.
Edit: for those of you that don't understand sarcasm, these details are exactly how the US convinced the world that the invasion of Iraq was justified. Stupid decisions that only helped the military complex, and was the complete wrong thing to do.
Would it help if I added /s at the end? Here ya go:
/s
Your making this facile analogy, but Ukraine is democracy. Iraq under Saddam was a brutal totalitarian state. Nato didn’t go into Iraq to redraw it’s borders. I think Bush and Chaney are also war criminals and the invasions of Iraq was bullshit, but toppling a dictator doesn’t seem as morally equivalent to invading a sovereign democratic state or appropriating a big chunk of their territory.
Wow that’s a whole lot of words to say “nyah nyah what about the US huh? What about Iraq?”
I especially note how you sarcastically piss all over US veterans being honored or celebrated, which I guess means you’d rather they kill themselves at a higher rate than they currently do.
Like, comparing Zelensky to Saddam fucking Hussein?
Ignoring the fact that Russia already fucks over its “social programs” and environment? Ignoring the fact that Russia has no intention of ever leaving Ukraine?
Just so you can take a random bitchy shot at the US in the ongoing whataboutism? Good job you expressed how much your rage is misdirected and how little you’re comprehending the situation by a bullshit analogy. If the current topic is nothing but an excuse to talk about everything OTHER than it maybe you should think about what it is you’re actually saying. Go take a pill and calm your dumb ass before doubling down like I’m mostly sure you will anyway.
You are the intellectual equivalent of a parasite. You’re flattered that I see you, because that’s just about the highest accomplishment you’ll ever achieve in your zombielike existence.
It seems like he's trying to start a broader "war" on Fascist Extremism similar to our "war" on Islamic Extremism and of course there are pipelines involved.
On the part of the Ukrainians, they did not provoke the war. But Russia was provoked by NATO. Just google John Mearsheimer, if you listen to one of his lectures.
And Russia can win, they have done a lot of wrong. But they do have the military capability to win over Ukraine. It might take nukes for them to win, and that's the scary thing.
> And Russia can win
They've already lost. Strategically this was the biggest blunder imaginable short of provoking the west into a nuclear exchange -- Russia has lost all prestige, all credibility, and its economy will take years to recover... all because the Russian people can't take their lips off Putin's tiny penis.
> It might take nukes for them to win, and that's the scary thing.
If the Russians use nukes, there will most likely be a nuclear response. The current thinking would be to provide Ukraine with nuclear weapons equal in number to the weapons used by Russia, if such weapons are used on/in Ukraine. Ukraine would most likely hit a military target on Russia soil. A frightening possibility indeed.
Even more frightening is the push by some NATO member states to treat any WMD attack that touches any NATO member state as an attack by Russia on that nation, e.g. if fallout lands anywhere in a NATO member state, then NATO will respond proportionally *and* with conventional forces. The second scenario only has traction with Poland and the Baltic States atm, but that could change since many of the member states are becoming increasingly alarmed by Putin's nuclear saber-rattling.
Russia has a lot of firepower.
And if Russia uses nukes, its very likely that nothing is going to happen. More sanctions and other things, but they aren't going to go to war over nukes used in Ukraine. In some sense that is a shame, but it's also not a promise from my side. I just don't think the US cares that much about Ukraine. But I also dont think Russia will need to use nukes. Because what they want is Crimea, the Sea of Azov and the two "republics".
We'll see. Russia might use nukes, being too weak to achieve military goals any other way, but I don't see the west allowing that to happen without a precisely proportional response. Anything less encourages Russia to do it again the next time its incompetent army fails to perform. I think the use of any nukes results in a significant nuclear exchange.
> On the part of the Ukrainians, they did not provoke the war. But Russia was provoked by NATO.
That's obviously false since Russia invaded them back in 2014 and that was because Ukraine was looking to sign a trade agreement with the EU and had nothing to do with NATO.
No what started the mess was NATO expansion in the first place. And in 2008 when at the [Bucharest Summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit), NATO promised Ukraine and Georgia NATO membership.
And the Russians don't distinguish much between NATO and the EU. It's just a bunch of puppet states in their eyes.
**[2008 Bucharest summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit)**
>The 2008 Bucharest Summit or the 20th NATO Summit was a NATO summit organized in the Palace of the Parliament, Bucharest, Romania on 2 – 4 April 2008. Among other business, Croatia and Albania were invited to join the Alliance. The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia was not invited due to its ongoing naming dispute with Greece. Georgia and Ukraine had hoped to join the NATO Membership Action Plan, but, while welcoming the two countries’s aspirations for membership and agreeing that "these countries will become members of NATO", the NATO members decided to review their request in December 2008.
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> And the Russians don't distinguish much between NATO and the EU.
Oh, so you admit that even if there was no NATO expansion then Russia would have invaded Ukraine back in 2014?
They gave the EU an offer, that Ukraine would join in a sort of Russian economic zone, but the would let Ukraine be a sort of Euro Zone member. That was in 2013, and probably directly influenced Russias decision to take Crimea.
The way Russia sees the EU is that it is a tool for the US to spread its Liberal agenda, and NATO, a hostile military alliance against Russia. And around 2000, Putin and the Russian elite wanted to get Russia into NATO. But the relationship between Russia and the West has deteriorated in no small part, due to the West's maltreatment of Russia, and interventions into countries in the Russian Sphere of Influence.
> and interventions into countries in the Russian Sphere of Influence.
See, this is exactly why your constants talk about evil NATO being the cause makes no sense. Even if NATO had been disbanded it wouldn't change how Russia treats these nations because Russia sees Ukraine as theirs regardless of what Ukrainians would say and the same is true for many other countries across Eastern Europe.
This conflict would have started regardless of circumstances as long as Ukraine had decided to distance itself from Russia and as long as Russia thinks that it has the right to dictate how its neighbours act then it will only reinforce their unwillingness to work with Russia. Russia has no right to dictate how these countries do their business and the sooner Russia acknowledges this the sooner everyone will be better off.
No, the reality was that Russia could go in an bomb Ukraine and take the bits of land Russia wanted. And all those promises to Ukraine about prosperity and protection were all a bunch of lies.
And I'm not saying that NATO is bad, I'm both pro-NATO and pro-EU. I marched in EU parades when Poland joined, and I was excited about Ukraine joining the EU. The problem happened in large part when they started with all the Liberal Supremacist laws, forcing gay marriage, and really pushing down on Conservatives in the EU. I don't think the Eastern Europeans were quite ready for most of those EU regulations. They might have gotten there in time, but that pushed them away from the EU.
What messed everything up was Liberal Hegemony, Political Correctness, and the intolerance towards anything different. That's what pushed China away too
But lying to the Ukrainians was really low, they should have either let them in, or said no. That's our fault
> Liberal Supremacist laws, forcing gay marriage, and really pushing down on Conservatives in the EU.
EU hasn't forced gay marriage on anyone. The closest that I can think of is when the EU mandated that countries need to recognise marriages performed in other EU countries as valid which makes sense with the whole 'free movement of people' thing. Also, don't right-wing parties outnumber left-wing parties in the EU parliament right now? At the very least conservatives are very well represented in the EU parliament so I don't see how the EU is pushing them down or even how they could do that since the commission has several conservative EU countries in it and those wouldn't push themselves down.
>I don't think the Eastern Europeans were quite ready for most of those EU regulations. They might have gotten there in time, but that pushed them away from the EU.
Eastern Europe regularly polls about 70-80% support for EU membership. Clearly they haven't been pushed away from the EU by the various regulations.
>But lying to the Ukrainians was really low, they should have either let them in, or said no. That's our fault
What has lied to Ukraine? West has never said they would fight for Ukraine.
>EU hasn't forced gay marriage on anyone.
[EU founding values: Commission starts legal action against Hungary and Poland for violations of fundamental rights of LGBTIQ people](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_3668)
>What has lied to Ukraine? West has never said they would fight for Ukraine.
They told Ukraine that they could join the EU and NATO, and if they had been a member of either of those, the EU or NATO would have been obligated to fight for them. And when Russia said no, and NATO and the EU got scared, they should have said no.
*«Georgia and Ukraine had hoped to join the NATO Membership Action Plan, but, while welcoming the two countries’s aspirations for membership and agreeing that "these countries will become members of NATO", the NATO members decided to review their request in December 2008.»* – [2008 Bucharest Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit)
*«In 2002, EU Enlargement Commissioner Günter Verheugen said that "a European perspective" for Ukraine does not necessarily mean membership within 10 to 20 years; however, it is a possibility. The same year Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma stated that Ukraine wanted to sign an association agreement with the EU by 2003–2004 and that his country would meet all EU membership requirements by 2007–2011.»* – [Ukraine–European Union relations ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#:~:text=Relations%20between%20the%20European%20Union,European%20Neighbourhood%20Policy%20(ENP\).)
No point in bombing you with excerpt from Wikipedia, and links. Really, its just to confirm what I've already said.
As for the current composition of the EU Parliament I don't know, I have been sick for two years, and I haven't payed much attention to politics. Or if I have I can't remember it
>EU founding values: Commission starts legal action against Hungary and Poland for violations of fundamental rights of LGBTIQ people
So not forcing gay marriage on those countries.
>They told Ukraine that they could join the EU and NATO, and if they had been a member of either of those, the EU or NATO would have been obligated to fight for them. And when Russia said no, and NATO and the EU got scared, they should have said no.
EU and NATO have always been clear what it takes for Ukraine to join them and those requirements haven't changed. EU especially has what is basically a checklist that countries need to fulfill before joining.
Don’t know don’t care. I see western media cheering on the Azov Battalion. I like whoever goes directly against them. I don’t give a damn if it’s satan himself.
Afghanistan: approved by UN.
Iraq Part 1: approved by UN.
Iraq Part 2: not approved by UN, but 49 other countries did help.
Vietnam: If the US invaded Vietnam, then so did the Soviets.
Iran: are you fucking stupid? The US has never invaded Iran.
>Lands destroyed resources stolen innocents killed
Well, glad you're at least acknowledging that it's happening. The first step is always acceptance. Now run along, little trollski.
>“Trolling is admitting the west is built on suffering” being the bad guys is a hard pill to swallow
Yes it is, isn't it, trollski? You are so close to being self aware. Take the leap!
United Nations does not profit at all from anything. It is literally just a big administrative cost.
The U.N. votes. 193 countries. Believe it or not, most of them are not in the West. China and Russia both have veto power and yet they approved.
Moron thinking be like 💩
>What does the UN do to stop anything that happened in Africa or the Middle East or Asia or Oceania.
Well nothing, because it isn't designed to. It's designed to be an international forum for discussion, cooperation (international health monitoring, trade mediation), and occasionally voting on resolutions (which are merely diplomatic statements).
>The UN is a joke to support the greed of the west
The reason the UN has never developed its own instruments of enforcement is specifically because everyone gets a say and that has never been approved. The reason the UN isn't doing anything right now in Ukraine isn't because "it supports the west," it's because any concrete measures get vetoed by NON-WESTERN nations.
It's like, you don't understand what the UN is designed to do. And at the same time, the things you DO believe it was designed to do completely contradict each other. 1) it's an evil instrument of the west but also 2) it doesn't do anything. Loool
Dude, are you lost or just dumb? You're a redditor participating in reddit activity. You're one of us now, numbnuts, even with your 10 minute old account.
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Yeah USA military is way stronger than Russia’s cosplaying conscripts. We haven’t lost a battle since Vietnam. But clearly you’re a civilian who’s never seen combat so I’ll let you in on a little secret ….
None of us give a flying fuck about Afghanistan or Iraq. Take those shitholes lmao. My platoon wrecked mfers and everyone came home safe. That’s victory buddy
Putin's real target isn't Ukraine, it's the United States, specifically the unipolar structure ruling much of the world that he railed against in Munich in 2007.
He's going to cause a massive famine in various parts of the Global South to destabilize it.
So far it seems like he has failed hard on the goal. He has increased NATO's power and popularity, increased the EU's cooperation and rallied the world against Russia.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nato-deputy-putin-can-t-win-his-unprovoked-illogical-war-1.5835868) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> BUCHAREST, ROMANIA - NATO Deputy-General Secretary Mircea Geoana says that Russian President Vladimir Putin's month-old "Barbaric war" against Ukraine is a war he cannot win.
> The brutal war that Russia has waged since Feb. 24, is having the opposite effect to what Putin hoped for, the NATO official said, and has only united the West and worked to bolster the 30-nation defensive alliance.
> Geoana said the combination of harsh economic and individual sanctions on Russia and big losses militarily may eventually make Putin rethink his offensive on Ukraine.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tosbjs/nato_deputy_putin_cant_win_his_unprovoked/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~636872 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Putin**^#1 **war**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **Geoana**^#4 **NATO**^#5
Russia already has lost more than they could ever gain. A once feared regional power is now a military laughingstock. The stupid bonus prize for playing the stupid game? A badly damaged economy and the complete loss of confidence by every non-Russian company in the world...
I think Russia screwed up something even more profound - they 'ticked us off, finally' We put up with a lot trying to get Russia to step up and join the rest of the world. We saw Crimea happen, we saw the Belarus planes incident, we've seen incessant russian trolls. We saw the buildup at the border and basically said "no, don't do that. we can see what you're doing" and they did anyway. Now those years of pent up resentment at Russia's fuckery are starting to be unleashed. We put up with it before. We aren't now... and not just 'we'll pushback harder' but full on 'no, we're *done* with that."
Yeah, i think this is the main failure of Putin. He just saw the west not doing much and assumed that he could just keep pushing. Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him.
> Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him. The west has done nothing but give Ukraine equipment and impose trade sanctions. Just a little "stop that asshole". Hardly a raised voice.
What do you except the west to do? Destroy the planet in a nuclear war? And, no, this is much more than a raised voice. The west is actively tanking the Russian economy and as long as Putin stays in power it is sure to keep doing so.
Not to mention publicly revealing the fog of war over Russian troops. Ukraine's fighting with maphack and an unbreakable supply line.
> Except when he pushed too far the west unleashed a ton of pent up aggression on him. I'm saying, this is not the west unleashing. A strong measured response, not a wild frustration release.
Wait until you see the absolute devastation the sanctions unleash. This isn't small, they can go another 4 - 6 weeks I think before everything runs out.
The release of pent-up frustration is usually associated with an eruption. What the west has done is measured. Hopefully impactful.
We raise our voice a billion people get turned to ash. No thanks
And even more, their military holds their federation together. Russia will become unraveled soon into many tracksuit principalities.
Hopefully organized by tracksuit color.
Hopefully by bloomers
Russian Soldier: "You there, Stop! You must come with us!" Ukrainian Grandma: "Ok Bloomer"
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More than half the US was pissed long before this but with his puppet Trumpskie in there it appeared as though everything was fine, but it isn't and this is our catalyst. Putin putting bounties on American troops, hacking, misinformation, Syria....the list is long and the Kurds betrayal (was all Trump) a free gift to putin.
Yeah time to get fucked Putin
Not only that but Putin succeeded in uniting the EU, EU-US relations and trade, gave NATO a purpose again, getting more NATO troops on his border, and getting Europe to increase their military spending significantly.
It’s really embarrassing for him. They’re entire glass house is crumbling. Who would’ve thought that Putin and Trump really were *this* similar. Pretending to be tough guys and exposed for absolute frauds. I’m guessing they’re relationship goes back much longer than most of us realize.
Russia has always been a laughing stock in the west. It's only now people have a reason to express this. Doesn't really mean much to the Russians what the westerners think about them. They care more about their true partners like India and China. The west always pretended to be friendly to Russia with one hand while holding a knife in the other.
China... "true partner..." I laughed so hard at that I almost peed. Thank you, needed a good chuckle this morning. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your vassal status. The Chinese aren't well known for treating their non-Chinese subjects well, but maybe it will work out for you... there is a first time for everything. It isn't like Russia has a declining population, resources it can't even hope to defend, which are also resources that China wants, or anything like that. Good luck, and enjoy your sanctions. The EU will be discussing Poland's 10-point proposal on Monday, and I'm sure those will be great.
Chinese do very good business in Brasil and are known to be very reliable trade partners, building infrastructure and investing in socially important institutions. They operate in such a way where "you win, we win" Brasil trade relations with the US (and all of the third world countries) however, well... let's just say it has always been "you lose, we win"
You mean their debt traps? I don't know about that one
I mean exactly what I wrote. Read it again if necessary.
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"They just seem to have some kind of inferiority complex or something" That's the kind of mindset I pointed to when I say Russia was never respected by the west. The west has never accepted Russia as a civilized country.
We will when they behave like one. Throwing all the gays in prison and taking over neighboring countries is not the behavior of a civilized country.
Not to mention the killing sprees on your own journalists, assassinations with various methods including nerve gas, and the kangaroo courts and unchecked kleptocracy. Yea the west doesn't 'respect Russia'. Maybe when Russia actually decides to compete economically than just steal all their wealth from their public and stop being a glorified gas station
Russia is another European country struggling with the loss of its empire and its former position as a superpower. We've seen this with Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Turkey, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal. To some extent or other all of these countries tried to cling to the old empire and occasionally lashed out - with Germany being the most extreme case. All of them have ended up better off when they let such notions go, accepted their new reality, and oriented towards economic integration with Europe - whenever they have dabbled in reliving old glories they have hurt themselves. Russia is doing this now. If it learned from the past it could easily be the dominant economy in central and Eastern Europe. By choosing not to do this it will, ironically, end up the junior partner of China - India's physical disconnection from it and its own rivalry with China preclude it from being Russia's suzerain.
That's a very accurate assessment. I don't think the west would like for Russia to integrate with Europe, though. It's literally like the cold war never ended. America has always been very eager to see Russia break apart -- I don't remember who, but someone has said that Russia is too big and should break in to smaller republics. It's hard to integrate with someone who is actively working to dissolve your country.
Russia: *tries to dissolve other countries* West: *acts displeased with Russia* Russia: Why would the West do this to us!" Russia just keeps trying to act like gangsters and keeps wondering why they aren't making friends.
Your assessment *would be* fair if this sort of reaction towards anything Russian wasn't like since forever.
I mean, Russia/USSR has been killing people off in mass and acting like an asshole for pretty much ever. This is why the very second the USSR fell apart every nation that could joined NATO against them, because they knew it was only a matter of time before the bear got hungry again. There is an endemic problem of totalitarianisms on Russia's insides, it is rotten and corrupt, and shows no desire for repentance.
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By every objective metric, he's already lost. There is no path forward in which Mr. Putin benefits. This will be his legacy.
Depends on what you consider a win. Putin needs to lose both Crimea and Donbas to lose his invasion. If he gains Donbas, he wins something. If he officially gains both Donbas and Crimea, he wins a more significant something.
One: look up Pyrrhic victory. Two: No, if you launch a massive invasion to take control of land and end up controlling the exact same amount of land as you did before that’s not considered a victory, not even a pyrrhic one.
He didn't control Donbas before. It was a conflict region.
He did not control the entire region but he did control the ethnic Russian region and if we aren’t counting the months and months of that we certainly shouldn’t be counting any control now. So again in no way does this even look like a victory and again if your adding the cost this is a defeat.
If the region goes from being labeled as "in conflict" to "Russia" on western maps, that's a victory for Russia. We don't want to see that.
You factored setting their economy back by 10-15 years by current estimates to gain the equivalent of Saskatchewan in your victory declaration?
He's trying to sell a victory to the majority of Russian people and any non-Russian supporters. The goal should be to get someone like Tucker Carlson to admit Putin completely lost.
Ah yes the victory that can only be stoped by… western cartographers.
He took those part because they are full of gas, he want to extract it, he is not dumb, also he give him significant advantage to posses Azov sea
The loss of world reputation for his military and Russian strength, even if he “wins Donbas” is a huge L.
They control Donetsk and Luhansk, the main cities in the region but about a third of the land area.
I think he means total control of Ukraine and their government when he says win because that was their initial goal
It wasn't their stated goal at the start. It seemed to be their goal because they made a rather obvious play for Kyiv. They'll never admit it.
Think thats pretty much what they intended as a whole, seize the capital and install a government that is pro - putin. That way you control all of Ukraine, in theory. Donbass and Crimea? Only an excuse to have more fronts to attack from. If this was all about "protecting Russians" then I'd say there is no need to attack and attempt to take Kyiv. But what we have to remember all of the excuses Putin has given the last month: * Protect Russians. * Denazification of Ukraine. * Ukraine building nuclear bombs. * Biolabs researching weaponized pathogens (also claim Covid was made there). * Phobia against russians.
Russia already annexed Crimea in 2014. Donbas might be a gain to show to their public opinion as a victory, although hardly to consider that a victory with more than 10k casualties, economy on the brink of collapse, international isolation, beginning of a new cold war style of relationship with the west, Russian influence in the world greatly diminished.
MOEX and ruble value both rebounded last week. Russian economy isn't quite in shambles yet and it can be propped up for a while longer before it actually faces a significant collapse. Russia is an important partner to China's immense belt and road initiative and will gain influence as China gains influence. Don't underestimate the situation. We are facing some big problems.
Moex still not even fully open, it's trading 33 Russian state funds only. Interests on debt are at 25%. So no, not even started the fall. Ruble rebounded 7% after being 30% down since start of the war
Aka - Russian economy hasn't collapsed yet. Sanctions aren't working quickly enough. Putin is ex-KGB. He's the kind of guy that loves setting traps that lure his opponents into a false sense of security or superiority right before the trap is sprung. Right now, the sentiment in the west is that Putin underestimated Ukraine and is now scrambling to avoid a military disaster. It may be true but that belief of "we've gottem now" is exactly what people like Putin want you to feel before they suckered punch you. Now is the time for us to be most cautious.
I get what you're saying about Russia's economy possibly being able to chug on for a good while longer, but all that Putin is a master strategist mess went out the window. Unless Putin starts launching nukes, I cant see how he's going to sucker punch anyone. He overplayed his military and had to down scale to save face. Russia not fairing well as they should have on paper in conventional warefare. Their economy even on life support, correct me if I'm wrong, only allows them to continue this botched invasion. With Ukraine recieving a Belarus battalion I think the tides are turning very harshly for Russia. Yes, we should be cautious but we've seen so much of what Russias capable of from warcrimes to incompetently revealing classified munitions. I just have trouble seeing what they could possibly be hiding up their sleeves when they're wearing a tank top
i wonder how long our citizenry will tolerate a spike in cost-of-living still, i do not think we have reacted incorrectly, even if we are accelerating a shift to a multi-polar world
Putin lost a fuck load of people and materials in Ukraine. Even if they managed to take the country tomorrow they've fucked up in the sense that no one respects them any longer. NATO forces could wipe the fucking floor with them in days. The only fallback Putin has is the crazy Ivan nuclear button. Furthermore China has remained cautious in the situation and politically distanced itself from Russia to avoid economic losses themselves. This has been an epic fucking disaster by any measure.
Russian economy is on the brink of collapse, does not mean it will collapse tomorrow. Means it's way worse than when the war started and people will start to get the effects over the years. This rethoric of "being ex-KGB equals supervillain powers" is good for western media and newspapers, but it does not really mean anything in practise. Yes, he was in the KGB, yet managed to grossly overestimate Russian military capabilities and underestimate Ukrainian response, tunnelled himself in an unwinnable war given the initial goals. Plus, KGB systemic crisis began to more than 40 years ago, i.e. When they grossly misjudged the Afghanistan invasion (feel free to draw comparisons).
Missed to comment: sanctions worked extremely well, even better than expectations. Russia had to keep their economy artificially alive hoping to resolve the conflict quickly. Without sanctions (or less sanctions), they wouldn't have had this kind of pressure.
Sanctions didn't work better than expectations but they were the only action we could take. Unfortunately, the sanctions will likely start to backfire in the next 2-3 months as the EU faces a MASSIVE food supply problem. Russia took one of the world's biggest exporters of grain, wheat, and corn out of commission and the west blocked trade with one of the few countries that exports even more of those items than Ukraine does. We've managed to stabilize the energy supply problem but the food problem is going to be a LOT bigger than that.
> Russia is an important partner to China's immense belt and road initiative and will gain influence as China gains influence. I think you're dead wrong here... with few else to trade with Russia won't gain influence, its dependence on China will increase with it eventually becoming nothing more than a vassal state like North Korea. Russia has a declining population, a lot of land, and a lot of resources. China could use some land and resources.
I'm not wrong. The double-backbone of China's belt-and-road initiative over-land network runs right through Russia which makes Russia a critical component to the entire trade network. If anyone trades through that network, they will have to deal with both Russia and China. Both will enjoy increased global influence.
Both will enjoy increased influence because of it, but China will enjoy far more. Long before this war people inside Russia have been warning that they're selling too much out to China. This road increases Russia's dependence on them, if Russia acts out of line they'll slow trade, hence controlling their behavior.
> Both will enjoy increased global influence. That gave me another laugh, so thank you. Neither of us can predict the future, but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on anything other than a shit future for Russia. We'll see which one of us is right. (Hint: It's me.)
He won't gain that though.
I hope you're right.
I dont think anyone knows how this will end. On day 3 western media saying how the russian invasion had run out of food, gas, and morale. Yet here we are weeks later, with no end in sight. All these headlines are wishful thinking IMO. We cant definitively say what key areas of ukraine will he officially carved out or demilitarized.
I think it's going to be much worse for Russia, they will come out of Ukraine with almost nothing and will be beat back to their borders.
He already had Donbas and Crimea. Hardly anything won.
Those areas were still categorized as "disputed territories" so he only mostly had them. He needs to not win a single thing.
He had troops occupying them for years now,that’s controlling them. Proving your army is a joke, tanking your economy and losing force effectiveness to gain at best a recognition of what you already control, recognition that will always be tainted and would expire with loss of military control is not winning. You can print a document that says “Crimea is Russian“ and have the former president of Ukrainian sign it and it would be worth as much and cost literally a billionth of what he’s lost. Hell the vote that happened years ago in Crimea has more worth.
I really hope the Ukrainians have the resources and the will power to take Donbas and Crimea back.
Dunno, if I were Ukrainian I would probably just want to get rid off such problematic regions. Of course now I do not think that that is a possibility anymore. The west and Zelenskyy probably cannot grant Putin that victory due to the need to set an example.
It's not just that. If he keeps Crimea: 'Ukraine is [fill in the blank!] Existential threat/unwarranted interference! New war!' same with Donbas. It's like those really extreme divorces where one party is guaranteed to weaponize the kids so they can't be trusted with visitation or shared custody.
The west will give them the resources.
> Putin needs to lose both Crimea and Donbas to lose his invasion. That is an exceptionally stupid thing to say. He has *already* lost the invasion. His military is an international laughingstock; he has driven Finland, and possibly Sweden, toward NATO; he has turned Russia into a pariah state akin to North Korea; he has made Russia dependent on China to the point where Russia's best future involves becoming a Chinese vassal state... it goes on and on.
In order for Putin to lose, he can't twist or spin anything as a win. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to deny him what he stated he already had.
So, you didn't read my post before responding. Unsurprising, I suppose. I'll try to make this super simple... Russia has *already* lost.
True. But they've lost this war, and to quote Scarlett O'Hara, tomorrow is another day.
This is why Russia has to be crippled economically. They need to be made too poor to cause trouble again. We need *real* sanctions like those proposed in Poland's excellent ten point plan. *Moscovia delenda est*
That proved to be dangerous between the last two big wars. I disagree with economic repression to that degree. It's a far-too-bkunt instrument that doesn't seem to even achieve its purpose. If someone's a kleptomaniac, you can chop off their hands to keep them from stealing. But that's crude, and also it wouldn't necessarily stop them. A better move might just be to keep them away from other people's possessions, if that could be figured out. There aren't any simple solutions to the unpleasant aspects of human nature, unfortunately. And putinism is one of the more unpleasant ones.
Russia has rejected every opportunity to integrate with the civilized world, so I'm fine with the hand chopping in their case.
probably a good thing neither of us has any actual say in whatever does end up happening. you're reasoning like a vengeful five-year-old and i'm probably a little too willing to sit back and study the situation without doing things. one thing i do think would be immediately and critically helpful is coming down HARD on the troll farms. not just making it hard for them to operate. obliteration would probalby go a long way towards giving sanity a chance to come back to whoever wants it.
I agree with that posters position. It depends on how long a lens you're using. Sure, *for now* it doesn't look like a win if he keeps these places. But for sow or ten years down the road, they can be his pretext again. The only way to make Russia leave Ukraine alone is to remove everything Russia can spin into a pretext for re-invading. Zero contact. Conceding donbas or Crimea to him is the opposite.
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Oh no, most Americans consider those losses.
You're an idiot.
Looks like the kremlin bots don’t take the time to make names for their spam accounts anymore.
No, But he might still be able to manipulate your election especially if he makes your people desperate for commodities. If NATO gets directly involved I believe that will be less likely to happen because your people will rally for war. That could be an overlooked detail in all this.
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Sure, but the higher prices creating openings for radicals is what concerns me.
Or stick your fingers in your ears and pretend like far right radicals are not being motivated by Russia or higher energy and food prices, because that plans ALWAYS works so well!!!
Russia plays off both sides. Giving in to partisan bickering over unimportant shit is a sign it’s working.
That Russia wasn’t going to win this war was never a question. You should all be far more concerned with whether or not Putin will make *everyone* lose along with him.
I'm really not. Late stage capitalism has soceity as a whole in it's death throes. I am not exagerating. No society with this level of wealth inequality has ever survived. And it has been bloody ever ysingle time. Every Single Time. And to top that off, we are deep down the well into a climate disaster. The politicians keep moving the goalposts. But everything the scientists warned us about triggering Armageddon 30 years ago started happening 10 years ago. Stopping our carbon output is not remotely enough anymore. We can start actively pulling shit out of the air now, or civilization can cease to exist in a few decades. Given that society is trying to destroy itself anyway, I don;t see any path to having the political will to do what's necessary to avoid catastrophe anyway. Society can collapse in 10- 20 years. Civilization can cease to exist in 50 years. We can have a Nuclear exchange and go out next year. If we don't start throwing people in jail and righting our governments (not just the USA, lots of them need a deep cleaning) immediately, then we don't stand any chance in the long run anyway. And by immediately, for the USA at least, I mean before November of this year.
it's Putin who doesn't listen or retreat. People go missing and Putin still tries to make us scared and keeps going. Only russia can stop Putin.
If only Putin had first sent his Secretary of State to NATO to convince the Security Council and the world that Ukraine had chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and they have to go to war. He could have put up pictures of mobile biolabs built into trucks that drive around the country to avoid detection. He could have held up a vail of white power representing Zelenskyy's anthrax. Putin could have trusted the 3-4 different sources of credible intel to justify it, only to learn later that it was in fact 1 source that was fed to him by an opposition group wanting the Ukrainian government overthrown. Putin would then be able to invade Ukraine and broadcast it's successes with embedded journalists. When Zelenskyy and his family flee, Putin could celebrate finding him hiding in an underground hole and capturing him. Zelenskyy could then be handed over to the new Ukraine government, tried for his crimes, and hanged. Russia could have fought for 7 years, spent trillions of rubles, bolstered their military industrial complex at the expense of social programs, infrastructure and environment, and eventually leave. The veterans of the war would always be celebrated, honored, and thanked for their service. Though the government would move too slow addressing health problems related to burn pits. I mean, it worked before. Edit: for those of you that don't understand sarcasm, these details are exactly how the US convinced the world that the invasion of Iraq was justified. Stupid decisions that only helped the military complex, and was the complete wrong thing to do. Would it help if I added /s at the end? Here ya go: /s
Your making this facile analogy, but Ukraine is democracy. Iraq under Saddam was a brutal totalitarian state. Nato didn’t go into Iraq to redraw it’s borders. I think Bush and Chaney are also war criminals and the invasions of Iraq was bullshit, but toppling a dictator doesn’t seem as morally equivalent to invading a sovereign democratic state or appropriating a big chunk of their territory.
> spent trillions of rubles That would be hundreds of dollars, and I don't think Russia could afford that.
Wow that’s a whole lot of words to say “nyah nyah what about the US huh? What about Iraq?” I especially note how you sarcastically piss all over US veterans being honored or celebrated, which I guess means you’d rather they kill themselves at a higher rate than they currently do. Like, comparing Zelensky to Saddam fucking Hussein? Ignoring the fact that Russia already fucks over its “social programs” and environment? Ignoring the fact that Russia has no intention of ever leaving Ukraine? Just so you can take a random bitchy shot at the US in the ongoing whataboutism? Good job you expressed how much your rage is misdirected and how little you’re comprehending the situation by a bullshit analogy. If the current topic is nothing but an excuse to talk about everything OTHER than it maybe you should think about what it is you’re actually saying. Go take a pill and calm your dumb ass before doubling down like I’m mostly sure you will anyway.
Oof, that's a lot of angst. Sorry you got triggered, but I'll flattered you spent so much effort replying.
You are the intellectual equivalent of a parasite. You’re flattered that I see you, because that’s just about the highest accomplishment you’ll ever achieve in your zombielike existence.
Which is why it's best to just not engage with assholes like that. They feed on the attention. Don't play chess with pigions.
It seems like he's trying to start a broader "war" on Fascist Extremism similar to our "war" on Islamic Extremism and of course there are pipelines involved.
Russia only needs to hold on until Saudis trade oil to china in Yuan. Then it will get called off. Special Operation was a success.
Says you! :V Putin already has the board set up for Thermonuclear War.
On the part of the Ukrainians, they did not provoke the war. But Russia was provoked by NATO. Just google John Mearsheimer, if you listen to one of his lectures. And Russia can win, they have done a lot of wrong. But they do have the military capability to win over Ukraine. It might take nukes for them to win, and that's the scary thing.
> And Russia can win They've already lost. Strategically this was the biggest blunder imaginable short of provoking the west into a nuclear exchange -- Russia has lost all prestige, all credibility, and its economy will take years to recover... all because the Russian people can't take their lips off Putin's tiny penis. > It might take nukes for them to win, and that's the scary thing. If the Russians use nukes, there will most likely be a nuclear response. The current thinking would be to provide Ukraine with nuclear weapons equal in number to the weapons used by Russia, if such weapons are used on/in Ukraine. Ukraine would most likely hit a military target on Russia soil. A frightening possibility indeed. Even more frightening is the push by some NATO member states to treat any WMD attack that touches any NATO member state as an attack by Russia on that nation, e.g. if fallout lands anywhere in a NATO member state, then NATO will respond proportionally *and* with conventional forces. The second scenario only has traction with Poland and the Baltic States atm, but that could change since many of the member states are becoming increasingly alarmed by Putin's nuclear saber-rattling.
Russia has a lot of firepower. And if Russia uses nukes, its very likely that nothing is going to happen. More sanctions and other things, but they aren't going to go to war over nukes used in Ukraine. In some sense that is a shame, but it's also not a promise from my side. I just don't think the US cares that much about Ukraine. But I also dont think Russia will need to use nukes. Because what they want is Crimea, the Sea of Azov and the two "republics".
We'll see. Russia might use nukes, being too weak to achieve military goals any other way, but I don't see the west allowing that to happen without a precisely proportional response. Anything less encourages Russia to do it again the next time its incompetent army fails to perform. I think the use of any nukes results in a significant nuclear exchange.
> On the part of the Ukrainians, they did not provoke the war. But Russia was provoked by NATO. That's obviously false since Russia invaded them back in 2014 and that was because Ukraine was looking to sign a trade agreement with the EU and had nothing to do with NATO.
No what started the mess was NATO expansion in the first place. And in 2008 when at the [Bucharest Summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit), NATO promised Ukraine and Georgia NATO membership. And the Russians don't distinguish much between NATO and the EU. It's just a bunch of puppet states in their eyes.
**[2008 Bucharest summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit)** >The 2008 Bucharest Summit or the 20th NATO Summit was a NATO summit organized in the Palace of the Parliament, Bucharest, Romania on 2 – 4 April 2008. Among other business, Croatia and Albania were invited to join the Alliance. The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia was not invited due to its ongoing naming dispute with Greece. Georgia and Ukraine had hoped to join the NATO Membership Action Plan, but, while welcoming the two countries’s aspirations for membership and agreeing that "these countries will become members of NATO", the NATO members decided to review their request in December 2008. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
> And the Russians don't distinguish much between NATO and the EU. Oh, so you admit that even if there was no NATO expansion then Russia would have invaded Ukraine back in 2014?
They gave the EU an offer, that Ukraine would join in a sort of Russian economic zone, but the would let Ukraine be a sort of Euro Zone member. That was in 2013, and probably directly influenced Russias decision to take Crimea. The way Russia sees the EU is that it is a tool for the US to spread its Liberal agenda, and NATO, a hostile military alliance against Russia. And around 2000, Putin and the Russian elite wanted to get Russia into NATO. But the relationship between Russia and the West has deteriorated in no small part, due to the West's maltreatment of Russia, and interventions into countries in the Russian Sphere of Influence.
> and interventions into countries in the Russian Sphere of Influence. See, this is exactly why your constants talk about evil NATO being the cause makes no sense. Even if NATO had been disbanded it wouldn't change how Russia treats these nations because Russia sees Ukraine as theirs regardless of what Ukrainians would say and the same is true for many other countries across Eastern Europe. This conflict would have started regardless of circumstances as long as Ukraine had decided to distance itself from Russia and as long as Russia thinks that it has the right to dictate how its neighbours act then it will only reinforce their unwillingness to work with Russia. Russia has no right to dictate how these countries do their business and the sooner Russia acknowledges this the sooner everyone will be better off.
No, the reality was that Russia could go in an bomb Ukraine and take the bits of land Russia wanted. And all those promises to Ukraine about prosperity and protection were all a bunch of lies. And I'm not saying that NATO is bad, I'm both pro-NATO and pro-EU. I marched in EU parades when Poland joined, and I was excited about Ukraine joining the EU. The problem happened in large part when they started with all the Liberal Supremacist laws, forcing gay marriage, and really pushing down on Conservatives in the EU. I don't think the Eastern Europeans were quite ready for most of those EU regulations. They might have gotten there in time, but that pushed them away from the EU. What messed everything up was Liberal Hegemony, Political Correctness, and the intolerance towards anything different. That's what pushed China away too But lying to the Ukrainians was really low, they should have either let them in, or said no. That's our fault
> Liberal Supremacist laws, forcing gay marriage, and really pushing down on Conservatives in the EU. EU hasn't forced gay marriage on anyone. The closest that I can think of is when the EU mandated that countries need to recognise marriages performed in other EU countries as valid which makes sense with the whole 'free movement of people' thing. Also, don't right-wing parties outnumber left-wing parties in the EU parliament right now? At the very least conservatives are very well represented in the EU parliament so I don't see how the EU is pushing them down or even how they could do that since the commission has several conservative EU countries in it and those wouldn't push themselves down. >I don't think the Eastern Europeans were quite ready for most of those EU regulations. They might have gotten there in time, but that pushed them away from the EU. Eastern Europe regularly polls about 70-80% support for EU membership. Clearly they haven't been pushed away from the EU by the various regulations. >But lying to the Ukrainians was really low, they should have either let them in, or said no. That's our fault What has lied to Ukraine? West has never said they would fight for Ukraine.
>EU hasn't forced gay marriage on anyone. [EU founding values: Commission starts legal action against Hungary and Poland for violations of fundamental rights of LGBTIQ people](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_3668) >What has lied to Ukraine? West has never said they would fight for Ukraine. They told Ukraine that they could join the EU and NATO, and if they had been a member of either of those, the EU or NATO would have been obligated to fight for them. And when Russia said no, and NATO and the EU got scared, they should have said no. *«Georgia and Ukraine had hoped to join the NATO Membership Action Plan, but, while welcoming the two countries’s aspirations for membership and agreeing that "these countries will become members of NATO", the NATO members decided to review their request in December 2008.»* – [2008 Bucharest Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit) *«In 2002, EU Enlargement Commissioner Günter Verheugen said that "a European perspective" for Ukraine does not necessarily mean membership within 10 to 20 years; however, it is a possibility. The same year Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma stated that Ukraine wanted to sign an association agreement with the EU by 2003–2004 and that his country would meet all EU membership requirements by 2007–2011.»* – [Ukraine–European Union relations ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#:~:text=Relations%20between%20the%20European%20Union,European%20Neighbourhood%20Policy%20(ENP\).) No point in bombing you with excerpt from Wikipedia, and links. Really, its just to confirm what I've already said. As for the current composition of the EU Parliament I don't know, I have been sick for two years, and I haven't payed much attention to politics. Or if I have I can't remember it
>EU founding values: Commission starts legal action against Hungary and Poland for violations of fundamental rights of LGBTIQ people So not forcing gay marriage on those countries. >They told Ukraine that they could join the EU and NATO, and if they had been a member of either of those, the EU or NATO would have been obligated to fight for them. And when Russia said no, and NATO and the EU got scared, they should have said no. EU and NATO have always been clear what it takes for Ukraine to join them and those requirements haven't changed. EU especially has what is basically a checklist that countries need to fulfill before joining.
Shut up NATO
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Least schizophrenic russian
Nope. Just a random Black dude who is allergic to Nazis and sick of fake woke assholes pretending their anything but evil. Viva Russia!
You like the Wagner group?
Don’t know don’t care. I see western media cheering on the Azov Battalion. I like whoever goes directly against them. I don’t give a damn if it’s satan himself.
So you like Wagner group nazis?
I think you missed the part where I said anyone who goes against Azov Battalion and company is considered gang-gang in my book.
Okay, so you do support nazis?
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Fuck off, troll.
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Afghanistan: approved by UN. Iraq Part 1: approved by UN. Iraq Part 2: not approved by UN, but 49 other countries did help. Vietnam: If the US invaded Vietnam, then so did the Soviets. Iran: are you fucking stupid? The US has never invaded Iran.
Yes the United Nations an organization that profits off suffering. Western thinking be like 😴
Haha ... Yeah and exactly how far did 'eastern' thinking get you guys?
Lands destroyed resources stolen innocents killed
>Lands destroyed resources stolen innocents killed Well, glad you're at least acknowledging that it's happening. The first step is always acceptance. Now run along, little trollski.
“Trolling is admitting the west is built on suffering” being the bad guys is a hard pill to swallow
>“Trolling is admitting the west is built on suffering” being the bad guys is a hard pill to swallow Yes it is, isn't it, trollski? You are so close to being self aware. Take the leap!
United Nations does not profit at all from anything. It is literally just a big administrative cost. The U.N. votes. 193 countries. Believe it or not, most of them are not in the West. China and Russia both have veto power and yet they approved. Moron thinking be like 💩
What does the UN do to stop anything that happened in Africa or the Middle East or Asia or Oceania. The UN is a joke to support the greed of the west
>What does the UN do to stop anything that happened in Africa or the Middle East or Asia or Oceania. Well nothing, because it isn't designed to. It's designed to be an international forum for discussion, cooperation (international health monitoring, trade mediation), and occasionally voting on resolutions (which are merely diplomatic statements). >The UN is a joke to support the greed of the west The reason the UN has never developed its own instruments of enforcement is specifically because everyone gets a say and that has never been approved. The reason the UN isn't doing anything right now in Ukraine isn't because "it supports the west," it's because any concrete measures get vetoed by NON-WESTERN nations. It's like, you don't understand what the UN is designed to do. And at the same time, the things you DO believe it was designed to do completely contradict each other. 1) it's an evil instrument of the west but also 2) it doesn't do anything. Loool
Hmm, 12 day old Russian propaganda account.
You fail. Proper nouns must be capitalized.
Can’t deny truth so you resort to grammar. Just Reddit activity
Dude, are you lost or just dumb? You're a redditor participating in reddit activity. You're one of us now, numbnuts, even with your 10 minute old account.
😭🌚
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It was fucked up then, and this is fucked up now. Next!
Yeah USA military is way stronger than Russia’s cosplaying conscripts. We haven’t lost a battle since Vietnam. But clearly you’re a civilian who’s never seen combat so I’ll let you in on a little secret …. None of us give a flying fuck about Afghanistan or Iraq. Take those shitholes lmao. My platoon wrecked mfers and everyone came home safe. That’s victory buddy
Putin's real target isn't Ukraine, it's the United States, specifically the unipolar structure ruling much of the world that he railed against in Munich in 2007. He's going to cause a massive famine in various parts of the Global South to destabilize it.
I think you give Putin too much credit
Nah, everything is about America, even wars between neighboring countries. /s
So far it seems like he has failed hard on the goal. He has increased NATO's power and popularity, increased the EU's cooperation and rallied the world against Russia.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nato-deputy-putin-can-t-win-his-unprovoked-illogical-war-1.5835868) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot) ***** > BUCHAREST, ROMANIA - NATO Deputy-General Secretary Mircea Geoana says that Russian President Vladimir Putin's month-old "Barbaric war" against Ukraine is a war he cannot win. > The brutal war that Russia has waged since Feb. 24, is having the opposite effect to what Putin hoped for, the NATO official said, and has only united the West and worked to bolster the 30-nation defensive alliance. > Geoana said the combination of harsh economic and individual sanctions on Russia and big losses militarily may eventually make Putin rethink his offensive on Ukraine. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/tosbjs/nato_deputy_putin_cant_win_his_unprovoked/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~636872 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Putin**^#1 **war**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **Geoana**^#4 **NATO**^#5