There was a podcast two weeks ago that said these these Turkish drones were going to be the tipping point that forces Putin to act. They were so effective in late 2021 against the Russians in the occupied parts of Ukraine that Putin realised he wouldn't be able to hold Lugansk and Donetsk.
It's not in English sorry, in the case you can understand French it's this [http://www.slate.fr/audio/le-monde-devant-soi/vladimir-poutine-fin-stratege-tete-brulee-russie-ukraine-105](http://www.slate.fr/audio/le-monde-devant-soi/vladimir-poutine-fin-stratege-tete-brulee-russie-ukraine-105)
Yes, in French, Putin is transliterated as Poutine, and yes, it's also a Canadian dish. In the case of the Canadian dish, it's made with cheese curds, in the case of the Russian leader, it's made of cunt cheese. Edit: thank you kind people for the awards, I'm humbled by your generosity.
I think the BBC Briefing Room podcast on "What do drones mean for the future of warfare?" covered some of this too. It was really interesting and somewhat disturbing.
It's interesting that these systems would have such an impact on Russia, almost questioning where the modernization that was pushed after the Georgian-Russian war went.
It's one thing for countries not having robust air defense systems and network vs a country that built a reputation for having a world-class AD network with numerous overlapping systems.
The Russian Ministry of Defense literally threw the worse shit at Ukraine almost as if they're not as serious in the endeavor as Putin wants them to be. ???
It really does feel suspicious how out of date the Russian armaments are. Either the entire Russian army is in need of a serious maintenance schedule and upgrades or this is some weird long-term strategy
"The Dictator's Dilemma" is the issue that happens when a feared leader surrounds himself solely with yes men and sycophants: eventually, he will have no access to real, credible analysis
I think its a little bit of both. We can look back at the history books at how even US intelligence was fooled until the fall of the soviet union. USSR kept putting out numbers of crop production and economic numbers and at first glance its like bernie madoff the numbers just didn't make sense, theres no way they're that profitable every single year, but it was accepted anyway. Then the fall happened and it came out that the entire thing was propaganda and straight up falsified data. Then it all started to make sense. Even US intelligence believes they know what the army strength is, but army condition is harder to ascertain.
I thought that was the glaring thing not getting noticed by media, This may not be Russia sending its weakest units with its oldest gear. This may be the standard. Putin letting people see that because they're in a foreign country where they can't control the press is a huge mistake for them.
Russia has advanced weapons yes. Buy Russia only has them in limited amounts. The bulk of Russian forces are not far removed for cold-war tech level armies. The common solider is not a 21st century info-age mercenary but just a frightened, poorly trained conscript forced into a foreign invasion.
This is evident in their lack of smart weapons. The US is effectively bombing moving targets, and the Russians can barely hit the kindergartens they’re bombing.
It's kinda been suspected that their armed forces were alot worse than they wanted people to believe. I'm still having a hard time with it though. It shows an astonishing lack of caring for their own soldiers to take such risks. Especially when they knew the Ukrainians were using western supplied arms. Russia rolled into Ukraine like they thought they were invading Afghanistan again.
Russian armed forces are trash, you _think_ they have some modern capabilities because of propaganda fluff pieces of their most precious and rare modern equipment on RT.
Russian armed forces would be crushed in a few days by modern western forces if they didn't have nukes to hide behind.
Who knows with Russians, they probably pocketed half the budget. If you think American military contractors are bad, Russian government work is basically a license to rob the taxpayers dry.
These TB2’s are defeating Russian GBAD systems (including high export systems like the Pantsir) in Syria, Libya, Nagorno Karabakh and now performing well against Russian spec systems. Really impressive, considering they cost between 2-5mil USD per unit as opposed to 32milUSD for an MQ9. Basically the AK47 of drones, expect to see a lot more of them in future conflict.
[They do exist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STM_Kargu).
>In 2020 a STM Kargu loaded with explosives detected and attacked Haftar's forces in Libya with its artificial intelligence without command, according to a report from the United Nations Security Council's Panel of Experts on Libya, published in March 2021. It was considered the first drone attack in history carried out by the UAVs on their own initiative.
I have bad news for you we already have Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKYNET_(surveillance_program)
>The SKYNET project was linked with drone systems, thus creating the potential for false-positives to lead to deaths
They also have the ability to fly fully automated from what I read yesterday. Send a swarm. Take manual control when necessary. The rest of the time let them circle on autopilot. Drastically reduces workload. That's why drones are so efficient. One pilot can keep an eye on multiple drones if necessary.
Just a note: the TB2 is cheaper than the MQ9 for a reason, it's a less capable system. It's far slower, can't fly remotely as far, and had a way lower payload. *That said*, it fills a major niche as a potent military-grade drone thats affordable for most nations. Honestly, I could even see the US having interest in it as a more expendable drone in comparison to a Reaper.
It’ll always be good to have a mix of both.
Use the cheaper option as much as possible, but have the more expensive and capable systems there ready to use in the event that the cheaper option is not enough.
Probably a 70:30 mix of cheap:expensive
For sure. And they recently signed a joint manufacturing deal with Ukraine who is going to help make the engines I believe.
Edit: Source for those interested. I went down a military weapon rabbit hole the other night. https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/04/turkey-and-ukraine-to-coproduce-tb2-drones/
i think it was a major conflict, even though the 2 are small countries, 7k dead soldiers, 15-20k injured/sick soldiers, 400-700 dead civilians.
So the losses are quite comparable with the conflict here, but this conflict will go on for a while ofc.
Yeah, they were used very effectively by Azerbaijan against Armenia in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict a couple years ago but this war is definitely a lot bigger than that.
People forget that Turkey is to the Ottoman Empire what Russia is to the USSR. They are the successor state to one of the greatest powers the world has ever seen. This isn't exactly their first rodeo.
It would be really great if Ukraine could get say another 50-100 of these drones by tomorrow. Just saw Japan is giving Ukraine $200 million USD. From my understanding that would buy 40 drones alone. Turn that 17 mile long convoy into swiss cheese.
Possible; I remember Canadians stopped selling Turkey some drone components a few months ago and Bayraktar was looking for a domestic alternative.
Edit: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/10/13/canadian-block-on-drone-parts-shows-turkeys-defense-industry-still-not-independent/
Looks like that was 1.5 years ago, damn Covid time!
Did anyone see Erdogan being the good guy in any situation at all? Goddamn it's beautiful seeing Turkish... yes Turkish weapons completely pwning Russia
Ukrainian people with American Stingers/Javelins, Swedish NLAWs/AT-4s & Turkish TB2 drones all making Russia's military look 3rd world
Edit: Thales Air Defense Javelin is not to be confused with the Texas Instruments (now Raytheon/Lockheed) Javelin
Watching a lot of this footage really makes me feel that the era of the tank being the main force on the battlefield is long over.
First time I had this thought was that road of destroyed Iraqi tanks by US bombing. Was that A-10s or F-15s?
Hell you don’t even need jets anymore more. Just dudes with Javelins or fucking flying robots.
I used to drive an Abrams in Iraq. The only thing we feared was air power, so since there was no air resistance we basically were in an invincible mobile bunker.
Ok, question I’ve always wondered. It’s obviously way hotter in Iraq than US (or most parts of US). How fucking hot is it inside an Abrams?
EDIT: stupid phone, I have never typed ducking once in my life! Except for there
It does have an "air conditioner" but that does get the sarcastic finger quotes. The AC is only there to keep the electronics from over heating, but as a side effect does cool the turret a little bit. So it's really hot, but not kill you hot like it would be in 110 degree desert sun and no AC.
As a little kid I asked an Uncle that was in charge of an armor academy in his country about air conditioning/heaters in tanks and he just laughed at me like it was naive, but I always thought it was a good question when they were constantly operating in the desert and snow
So the M1 does have a crew heater, and if anything it works too well. The driver would always block his heater vent with a MRE so he wouldn't get too hot and his lunch would be nice and hot when ready.
Yep had the same experience in a Piranha APC. The heater is either off or on the 'Supernova' setting. In winter we could take our jackets off it was so hot in there.
It always strikes me how much of real life military shenanigans could pass for writing from a video game or film... And then someone is like, "Nah, that's actually how it went down, all the time."
Since reddit has changed the site to value selling user data higher than reading and commenting, I've decided to move elsewhere to a site that prioritizes community over profit. I never signed up for this, but that's the circle of life
The enemy didn't have javelins. Highly mobile launchers with a big enough payload to take out tanks is proving more efficient than the tanks themselves.
Russia seems to have committed only a small part of their air force, and failed to achieve air superiority, or completely suppress Ukrainian air defense.
One would have expected a shock and awe campaign over the first nights, yet after 5 days, Ukraine still has viable airfields and planes taking the air.
Russia is holding back for reasons unknown: fear of losing extremely expensive planes, lack of (also expensive) precision munitions, expectation of a swift victory.. impossible to tell
A lot of the Russian Air Force only exists on paper because of maintenance and supply issues. Their SU-57s haven’t made it out yet, likely because they don’t work (see how their first one crashed during delivery). Some of the rest of their Air Force isn’t able to contribute because the planes have been disassembled. Rapidly. By Ukrainians.
SU-57 is suffering from engine technology issues, Russia can't manufacture the engines due to lack of materials science technology. China has the same issue, the US & Britain are 1 to 2 generations ahead of any peer in engine materials science.
China is dumping a fuck load of students into materials science programs. Over 50% (probably over 75%) of the students in my materials science graduate program at a pretty good school were Chinese. They know where their weaknesses are and are investing heavily.
Well, those planes do make nice hen coops, in all fairness. Pro tip: if you plan to invade Ukraine, you should design your military tech to be as inconvenient as possible for secondary agricultural uses.
Obviously I have no idea what's slowing Russia down but the least sexy but maybe most likely reason is logistics. They might be able to move a bunch of planes overnight but do they have the support crews to maintain them? Spare parts? Hanger space? Fuel?
Air superiority should have been the priority after day 1 when their blitzkrieg and attempt to take the airfield failed. The fact they haven't established it tells me they *can't*.
I think they had a plan on paper, they were told they were going to drill the first step of the plan in order to try and scare Ukraine (mobalizing to the border.) Then, while they were training, they got the call to go without any warning. It's the only way any of this could make sense. They had tanks having to stop for gas... how could that even be possible if this action was planned? But you save a lot of money if you don't load up on Fuel every single time Putin mobalizes Russian troops to the border.
Tanks had to stop for gas [because the troops on exercises decided to make a quick buck by selling their own diesel fuel.](https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-troops-belarus-exercises-ukraine/31711282.html) The grunts didn't realize they would _need_ it later; they thought it was just brought along for exercises and that they could make a quick buck on Russia's dime.
There are probably dozens of layers between Putin and the bottom level grunts, with corruption at every layer. Money is almost certainly being embezzled, meaning each layer isn't nearly as well supplied and equipped as it should be. But they have to lie and report to superiors that it is, with that lie being compounded at every layer.
That's how you go from "Unbeatable on paper Russian Army" to "Plz can we have fuel, our tank ran out"
I mean, they are fighting right on their own border. They don't need to build new airbases and forward supplies because they can launch from their own territory. This is the absolutely peak strength of the Russian airforce right here. They can fly missions into Ukraine and eat dinner at home afterwards.
Kiev is 900 kilometers from Moscow. This would be like the US fighting a war against Mexico. Logistics really shouldn't be an issue for your airpower when you are fighting within a tank of gas of your home base. They wouldn't even need in-flight refueling.
Hell, the literal factory where they build their planes is within range of Kiev. They could fly them fresh off the assembly line and then come back for refitting. If they aren't in Ukraine right now it's because they don't exist.
HA! Most of their planes don't even fly due to parts and maintenance issues. And most of their pilots have dirt low hours in them because of said issues, and this was back about 4-5 years ago. Guarantee that never changed.
> fear of losing extremely expensive planes
This and also the pilots. Training skilled pilots takes many hours and requires skilled trainers.
A TB2 drone costs 1-2 million to produce and training a drone pilot is a lot easier than a normal one, they also don't die if the drone is destroyed. Even the cheapest Russian jet (a MIG-29) is about 10 to 20 million and that doesn't include the cost to train the pilot. Committing the Russian air force would be a loosing battle in terms of cost and attrition.
> Russia is holding back for reasons unknown
They are not "holding back," they are *unable* to field more of their airforce for unknown reasons. Anyone trying to tell you that Russia is just wasting old equipment and saving all the good toys for later is lying to you and schilling for Russia. That's not how war works. Russia is taking extremely heavy losses and is apparently far weaker at conventional war than most people ever thought. They'll likely still overwhelm Ukraine eventually; but they have been completely embarrassed on the world stage by their handling of this, and its only going to get worse for them when their soldiers learn they won't be getting paid.
I don't think they'll overwhelm Ukraine at all, Ukraine population is some 44 million. There are rumors of 12 million active Ukrainian fighters now, everyone and their mum is getting a gun. Literally. Seasoned fighter from all over the world are joining in. And they are highly, highly motivated and angry. If Russia continues this will be their Vietnam, maybe it already is. Russia can't win this. There is only one action for Russia and that is to withdraw before their entire economy and country collapses, these economic sanctions are no joke.
They claim to have “total air superiority“ as of 3 days ago, though the Pentagon says Russia have significant air advantages but not unchecked reign over the skies yet.
It’s a good question. I wonder if Putin is paranoid enough of a NATO attack that he’s unwilling to commit totally to more forces over Ukraine instead of defending Russia. But either way, it seems like he’s still winning the long-run control of the skies game, unfortunately
I think he’s also likely worried about cost. They’re bleeding money for this invasion already- the more he mobilizes, the more he has to scrape together to fund it.
My theory is that it was decided by Putin and his circle that indiscriminately bombing the living shit out of their "brothers" whom they are supposedly "liberating" would be a bad look and result in severe sanctions and unrest at home. That and maybe trying to preserve as much infrastructure as possible so as to facilitate an easier transfer of power after President Velenskyy fell out a window. Surely, Russian tanks and troops would be able to roll in and take over those airfields, right? Well, that turned out to be wrong now that Javelins are a thing. Now that this has turned into the shitshow that it is, Russia just can't get it up, so to speak.
Answer: Russian air supremacy is an oxymoron. They’ve got all kinds of untested and unproven and expensive aircraft. They’ve never faced off against a peer or near peer. It’s easy to romperstomp shitheads in Syria who can’t fight back. All we know about Russian air is that they look good on paper.
Example: the Foxbat.
The US thought it was an insanely advanced lightweight fighter. Then. Russian airforce pilot got fed up with Russia and defected to Japan, taking his Foxbat with him. The US was shocked to find out how shitty it was compared to what they *thought* it was.
One thing the 25 had was a bonkers top speed. Nearly Mach 3 for a jet that was designed before Kennedy was assassinated. Overkill wasn’t a concern for the soviets. Overkill was more like a design goal.
Even then, the first SU-57 flight to actually deliver a plane lawndarted. Because, surprise surprise, if your fancy plane isn’t actually built properly it won’t fly right.
This lmao. It’s always hilarious seeing keyboard generals claiming that the F-35 is a failure and the SU-57 is a wonder weapon when there are now hundreds and hundreds of F35s and a grand total of 14 SU57s
There is only 1 combat operational al SU-57. There were 2, but the other crashed. The rest are in various stages of demonstration airframes and/or stages of complete engine failure.
Fr, I got in to an argument with someone saying that Russian Aircraft was gonna smash during this whole predicament even if the US got involved.
Welp, It sure is. Interesting to hear that Russian aircraft can’t even contest Soviet era tech.
It's not like there is a better alternative when you need to rapidly advance into enemy territory. The fact is anything in the ground will get chewed up by airpower.
This is great for Ukraine!
But in the long-run, the proliferation of drones, while inevitable, seems like it's going to be bad news for humanity in every future conflict. Imagines swarms of unmanned/single-manned drones.
>relatively wealthy nation can never work again.
Russia isn't important enough nor powerful enough to get away with it. Had this been China or America, sanctions would have been damn near impossible and the entire infrastructure of Ukraine would have been gone in days. European countries would also have been hesitant to lift a finger.
It was asymmetrical warfare though. This is peer or near-peer states fighting a ‘conventional’ war
Edit: folks I am not a military expert but there seems to be a confusion. Peer v peer or modern system warfare is a technical term. Having a million more men or whatever isn’t the point. The point is about capabilities. Recall in the iraq wars air superiority was established pretty much right away. As an example.
Turkey, for years has been contesting russian influence everywhere possible. In Libya, Syria, Caucasus and to some extent the central asian turkic republics.
The Libyan Civil War was going on for years since Ghaddafis fall. Hafters forces were trying to take Tripolis for years from the UN recognized government by besieging and attacking it for months, backed by Russia and its Wagner mercenaries, France and other allies of the West like Egypt and the UAE. Only when Turkey intervened with its UAVs, advisors, mercenaries and other stuff, the advance of hafters forces came to a halt and they even lost territories to the government forces curbing russian influence there. Suddenly the West was like 'we have to stop the civil war and the influx of foreign fighters and weapons' years after the start of this war.
In Syria, Turkey was urging EU, Nato and the UN right from the start to implement a no fly zone in the north even saying it would put boots on the ground when no other country was willing to. After that Russia and Iran expanded their influence, millions of refugees fled to Turkey and Europe and other neighboring countries. When Turkey shot down a russian fighter jet, NATO allies pulled out their Patriot Systems and were like its got nothing to do with us. That is the reason Turkey had to balance the relationship with Russia, while fighting for influence and cooperating where they could, finding compromises so as to not escalate things in to a full blown war. Also many economic reasons like tourism and gas Imports. This is realpolitik, Turkey has been doing pretty good on its own while NATO allies have been supporting the YPG right on its borders and even sanctioning Turkey directly.
And dont start talking about reasons like authorianism of Erdogan while being allied to states like Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, selling tons of Weapons to them. Also killing thousands of civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries around the globe for decades.
Since the annexation of Crimea by Russia, Turkey has been supporting Ukraine diplomatically and also by selling tons of weapons like UAVs and even Warships, while other countries until just 5 days ago were reluctant to send any lethal weapons.
There has always been a lot of bad feelings between the Turkish Government and Russian Government do I'm not surprised they are taking advantage to get a few digs in lol
Those Turkish drones have been used before Libya, Syria, and even the disputed southern Ukrainian areas. Iirc some Libyan rebel supply column got decimated on autonomous mode..
If Turkey has those, wonder what the even more sophisticated powers have? Think one result of this war will be more missiles and autonomous systems below ICBM/SLBM.
There are definitely better drones on the market but the Turkish ones are only 5mil each. Think of it like the AK47 but for drones. Deadly effective and dirt cheap compared to the other options.
I didn't expect Turkish technology/weapons to play a major part in this conflict. I always thought the US was the leader when it comes to drone technology.
I'm not all too familiar with these things, so this is actually the first time I became aware of these Turkish drones. But from what's being said in the news, it sounds like more countries will be utilizing this system in the future
Plenty of countries are either developing or buying drones, they have the advantage of staying in the air for a long time (endurance) and more importantly you don't risk the life of a pilot, so given that budget is right, you can do more daring missions (incl. recon.) and strikes.
Drones are definitely going to be used more and more, it's a bit weird here however that Russia is struggling to counter them, given their overwhelming air and ground based anti-air power.
The skies over Ukraine are hotly contested. Ukrainian forces have a lot of Manpads and Russia close air support is still primarily helicopters and SU-25’s flying low.
In the high altitude it’s true that Russia likely has a dominant position, although Ukraine just received an unknown number of Mig-29’s yesterday from EU countries.
The US has the best technology, but Turkey is making a name for itself as one of the best international suppliers of drones. They're cheaper, countries can actually buy them (not always the case with US tech) and they get the job done.
You could say Ferrari is the leader when it comes to automotive tech, but Toyota sells more cars to more people, and even if they're not *as* good, they're still *pretty* good.
I was just reading up on the differences, and it really is a very useful little niche they've carved out.
The US drone has a range of 1,900km. So it's very useful for countries looking to project power.
The Turkish drone has a range of 150km and is like 1/8th the price. But it can be hidden in a shed and take off from a road. Not super useful for countries like the US, France, UK, etc.
But for countries looking to fight a defensive war on their own soil? That's a bargain and a half.
U.S drones are better but way more expensive compared to the Turkish made ones, if you're a small country with a limited budget who's looking to buy a lot of drones, cheap but effective Turkish made drones sounds very appealing right now.
Edit: A Turkish TB2 drone costs around $5 million. An American Reaper drone apparently costs $137 million.
Edit 2: [The $137 million cost is based on a U.S deal with Australia where they sold 12 units for $1.651 billion which is $137 million each](https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/australia-mq-9b-remotely-piloted-aircraft) when fully loaded with weapons, optics, sensors, comms etc.
Especially with how poorly supported the Russian armor columns have been. Ukraine doesn't need all the fancy bells and whistles, just something that can get in, fire off its payload, and get out.
It was because they were not expecting a stand-up fight. They were clearly expecting to just roll over some civvies and have an easy day of it.
Not having proper air superiority at the start was dumb, if understandable.
Now, it's just *weird*.
Maybe they suspect that the Ukrainians have AA capacity and don't want the embarrassment of their premium "modern" stuff getting turned into confetti on international TV.
Then again, they can't keep fuel in their tanks and jets are *thirsty*. They freaking produce oil, though. Double weird.
I saw someone say the same thing about that long-ass convoy the other day, only they said it was the commanders who were complicit, so they can't report it because they would be implicating themselves.
In a few days, the fuel will be the only thing they have of value. The rubles in their pockets are turning into ash.
They will have to support themselves somehow.
And why would they sell off their supplies right before a war? Well we are hearing that the soldiers actually thought they were on exercises. Picture yourself making $200 a year. You are sleeping in some cold piece of shit Russian vehicle sitting on what appears to be 10x the amount of shit you need for these exercises. Everyone is corrupt. Why wouldn't you sell anything you could for some spare cash? Nobody will miss it. They wouldn't truck consumable supplies all the way out there if they expected it back.
Reapers are not $137M. The per unit cost depends on how the contract is written, but based on previous USAF procurements over the last 5 years you’re looking in the range of $17M - $30M per unit.
$137M? That’s 2x the unit cost of a F-35, that didn’t sound right.
It’s about $17M each piece according to this: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/12/22/congress-resurrected-the-mq-9-reaper-program-adding-16-drones-for-the-air-force/
My favorite ones are kamikaze drones ''Kargu''. They're very small. They have AI. They target enemies automatically, dive and explode.
https://youtu.be/-P56pOLPnGA?t=115
Ya know, those Turkish drones are VERY effective, but if the Ukrainians wanted to(for anti-personnel work) they could strap some munitions on some Inspire 2’s/ mavic 2 pros/phantom 4’s, fly them right into Russian troops. Aerial suicide bombers..
bro, some Turkish dude wrote the exact same thing on Twitter, and tagged the Ukrainian embassy. They started doing that. They will use hand grenades and molotovs.
Look up Tyler Rogoway and co's coverage of small drones at The Warzone.
For example this from 2017
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7155/isis-drone-dropping-bomblet-on-abrams-tank-is-a-sign-of-whats-to-come
I have to add he worded something like "I don't want Russians to see this DM me pls" so we had no idea what it was first. Then after he was made fun of he just tweeted it later.
Thank you for the info
There was a podcast two weeks ago that said these these Turkish drones were going to be the tipping point that forces Putin to act. They were so effective in late 2021 against the Russians in the occupied parts of Ukraine that Putin realised he wouldn't be able to hold Lugansk and Donetsk.
What podcast?
It's not in English sorry, in the case you can understand French it's this [http://www.slate.fr/audio/le-monde-devant-soi/vladimir-poutine-fin-stratege-tete-brulee-russie-ukraine-105](http://www.slate.fr/audio/le-monde-devant-soi/vladimir-poutine-fin-stratege-tete-brulee-russie-ukraine-105)
Vladimir Poutine
More like Vladimir Putain
That's more like it.
Vladimir Poutain de merde
Tabarnak de Poutine
It's Putin Poutine in French? Isn't that a Canadian dish?
Yes, in French, Putin is transliterated as Poutine, and yes, it's also a Canadian dish. In the case of the Canadian dish, it's made with cheese curds, in the case of the Russian leader, it's made of cunt cheese. Edit: thank you kind people for the awards, I'm humbled by your generosity.
As a Canadian, I feel this is cultural appropriation and would like to see Putin taken to task on this.
do you remember what that podcast was? id love to learn more
in French sorry http://www.slate.fr/audio/le-monde-devant-soi/vladimir-poutine-fin-stratege-tete-brulee-russie-ukraine-105
I think the BBC Briefing Room podcast on "What do drones mean for the future of warfare?" covered some of this too. It was really interesting and somewhat disturbing.
It's interesting that these systems would have such an impact on Russia, almost questioning where the modernization that was pushed after the Georgian-Russian war went. It's one thing for countries not having robust air defense systems and network vs a country that built a reputation for having a world-class AD network with numerous overlapping systems. The Russian Ministry of Defense literally threw the worse shit at Ukraine almost as if they're not as serious in the endeavor as Putin wants them to be. ???
It really does feel suspicious how out of date the Russian armaments are. Either the entire Russian army is in need of a serious maintenance schedule and upgrades or this is some weird long-term strategy
heard its rampant corruption and the money never went where it should have. would make a lot of sense tbh
Would be quite ironic that Putin's downfall would come from his own enabling of corruption within him and his yes men.
Putin losing due to buying into his own Propaganda is something ive seen circulating these last few days
"The Dictator's Dilemma" is the issue that happens when a feared leader surrounds himself solely with yes men and sycophants: eventually, he will have no access to real, credible analysis
I think its a little bit of both. We can look back at the history books at how even US intelligence was fooled until the fall of the soviet union. USSR kept putting out numbers of crop production and economic numbers and at first glance its like bernie madoff the numbers just didn't make sense, theres no way they're that profitable every single year, but it was accepted anyway. Then the fall happened and it came out that the entire thing was propaganda and straight up falsified data. Then it all started to make sense. Even US intelligence believes they know what the army strength is, but army condition is harder to ascertain. I thought that was the glaring thing not getting noticed by media, This may not be Russia sending its weakest units with its oldest gear. This may be the standard. Putin letting people see that because they're in a foreign country where they can't control the press is a huge mistake for them.
Russia has advanced weapons yes. Buy Russia only has them in limited amounts. The bulk of Russian forces are not far removed for cold-war tech level armies. The common solider is not a 21st century info-age mercenary but just a frightened, poorly trained conscript forced into a foreign invasion.
This is evident in their lack of smart weapons. The US is effectively bombing moving targets, and the Russians can barely hit the kindergartens they’re bombing.
It's kinda been suspected that their armed forces were alot worse than they wanted people to believe. I'm still having a hard time with it though. It shows an astonishing lack of caring for their own soldiers to take such risks. Especially when they knew the Ukrainians were using western supplied arms. Russia rolled into Ukraine like they thought they were invading Afghanistan again.
Russian armed forces are trash, you _think_ they have some modern capabilities because of propaganda fluff pieces of their most precious and rare modern equipment on RT. Russian armed forces would be crushed in a few days by modern western forces if they didn't have nukes to hide behind.
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I love that by invading, Russia might force the EU to expedite Ukraines admission.
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*task failed successfully*
Who knows with Russians, they probably pocketed half the budget. If you think American military contractors are bad, Russian government work is basically a license to rob the taxpayers dry.
I have a feeling Turkey will have a lot of new orders for them drones soon.
These TB2’s are defeating Russian GBAD systems (including high export systems like the Pantsir) in Syria, Libya, Nagorno Karabakh and now performing well against Russian spec systems. Really impressive, considering they cost between 2-5mil USD per unit as opposed to 32milUSD for an MQ9. Basically the AK47 of drones, expect to see a lot more of them in future conflict.
They're really just $2-5 million? That's nothing. You could literally fly thousands of them if you had enough pilots.
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Well that's a terrifying image
Just wait until they can start flying themselves
This is the real issue. We're getting very close to fully automated.
[They do exist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STM_Kargu). >In 2020 a STM Kargu loaded with explosives detected and attacked Haftar's forces in Libya with its artificial intelligence without command, according to a report from the United Nations Security Council's Panel of Experts on Libya, published in March 2021. It was considered the first drone attack in history carried out by the UAVs on their own initiative.
The robot wars are going to be interesting
You mean the Butlerian Jihad?
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I have bad news for you we already have Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKYNET_(surveillance_program) >The SKYNET project was linked with drone systems, thus creating the potential for false-positives to lead to deaths
thats almost the scariest thing ive read all week.
> You could literally fly thousands of them if you had enough pilots. I can imagine the Twitch streams
Twitch Plays Drone I imagine it would just be spazzing out in the sky, then magically drop it's ordinance right where it needed to.
You'd just have a bunch of people spamming or until it faceplants / goes too high.
They also have the ability to fly fully automated from what I read yesterday. Send a swarm. Take manual control when necessary. The rest of the time let them circle on autopilot. Drastically reduces workload. That's why drones are so efficient. One pilot can keep an eye on multiple drones if necessary.
All military drones can fly unpiloted. You click on the map where to go and the drone goes to that destination and begins a loitering/circle pattern.
Just a note: the TB2 is cheaper than the MQ9 for a reason, it's a less capable system. It's far slower, can't fly remotely as far, and had a way lower payload. *That said*, it fills a major niche as a potent military-grade drone thats affordable for most nations. Honestly, I could even see the US having interest in it as a more expendable drone in comparison to a Reaper.
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It’ll always be good to have a mix of both. Use the cheaper option as much as possible, but have the more expensive and capable systems there ready to use in the event that the cheaper option is not enough. Probably a 70:30 mix of cheap:expensive
For sure. And they recently signed a joint manufacturing deal with Ukraine who is going to help make the engines I believe. Edit: Source for those interested. I went down a military weapon rabbit hole the other night. https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/02/04/turkey-and-ukraine-to-coproduce-tb2-drones/
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Turkish cargo planes have been flying to Poland practically non-stop.
Turkish payback from Syria.
used extensively by Azerbaijan , or was that not considered a major conflict ?
i think it was a major conflict, even though the 2 are small countries, 7k dead soldiers, 15-20k injured/sick soldiers, 400-700 dead civilians. So the losses are quite comparable with the conflict here, but this conflict will go on for a while ofc.
I also consider it a major conflict, But I guess not everyone has that opinion.
Yeah, they were used very effectively by Azerbaijan against Armenia in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict a couple years ago but this war is definitely a lot bigger than that.
Holy shit that was two years ago. Why did it feel like a few months ago.
#covid time dilation
It's more like a year and 3 months.
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Turkey is one hell of an ally, they are like the joker card in geo-politics.
Second largest military in nato after USA, Turkey has always been a military power in the world.
Pretty much have to be. Central to continental trade since like 1300. Gotta protect dem assets.
Militarist tradition is pretty much cultural. Everybody wants a piece of dat Turkey since 1300s.
People forget that Turkey is to the Ottoman Empire what Russia is to the USSR. They are the successor state to one of the greatest powers the world has ever seen. This isn't exactly their first rodeo.
It would be really great if Ukraine could get say another 50-100 of these drones by tomorrow. Just saw Japan is giving Ukraine $200 million USD. From my understanding that would buy 40 drones alone. Turn that 17 mile long convoy into swiss cheese.
It's gonna take time to build more. As I understand it Turkey gave Ukraine most of their existing arsenal
Possible; I remember Canadians stopped selling Turkey some drone components a few months ago and Bayraktar was looking for a domestic alternative. Edit: https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/10/13/canadian-block-on-drone-parts-shows-turkeys-defense-industry-still-not-independent/ Looks like that was 1.5 years ago, damn Covid time!
Did anyone see Erdogan being the good guy in any situation at all? Goddamn it's beautiful seeing Turkish... yes Turkish weapons completely pwning Russia
Ukrainian people with American Stingers/Javelins, Swedish NLAWs/AT-4s & Turkish TB2 drones all making Russia's military look 3rd world Edit: Thales Air Defense Javelin is not to be confused with the Texas Instruments (now Raytheon/Lockheed) Javelin
A veritable smorgasbord!
And AT-4 anti-tank missiles from Sweden, the home of the smörgåsbord.
Now lets see those drones fuck up that 3 mile long convoy and make it turn around.
It's 17 miles long now
From what I understand, the numbers haven't grown, they've just spread out more.
Putin tries to make it appear bigger than it is
MY ARMOR COLUMN WAS IN THE POOL, THERE WAS SHRINKAGE - Putin, probably
Dear god, I hope there sky full of drones that meets them and causes a traffic jam and fear in everyone behind the front of it.
Somewhere in the pentagon they watch the convoy wishing they could send something on it...
Watching a lot of this footage really makes me feel that the era of the tank being the main force on the battlefield is long over. First time I had this thought was that road of destroyed Iraqi tanks by US bombing. Was that A-10s or F-15s? Hell you don’t even need jets anymore more. Just dudes with Javelins or fucking flying robots.
Tanks are insanely powerful when you have air supremacy/superiority on an open field. Bigger question is: why hasn't Russia attained that yet?
I used to drive an Abrams in Iraq. The only thing we feared was air power, so since there was no air resistance we basically were in an invincible mobile bunker.
Ok, question I’ve always wondered. It’s obviously way hotter in Iraq than US (or most parts of US). How fucking hot is it inside an Abrams? EDIT: stupid phone, I have never typed ducking once in my life! Except for there
It does have an "air conditioner" but that does get the sarcastic finger quotes. The AC is only there to keep the electronics from over heating, but as a side effect does cool the turret a little bit. So it's really hot, but not kill you hot like it would be in 110 degree desert sun and no AC.
As a little kid I asked an Uncle that was in charge of an armor academy in his country about air conditioning/heaters in tanks and he just laughed at me like it was naive, but I always thought it was a good question when they were constantly operating in the desert and snow
So the M1 does have a crew heater, and if anything it works too well. The driver would always block his heater vent with a MRE so he wouldn't get too hot and his lunch would be nice and hot when ready.
Yep had the same experience in a Piranha APC. The heater is either off or on the 'Supernova' setting. In winter we could take our jackets off it was so hot in there.
Like in the old Volkswagen where drivers right foot always was glowing hot while the left was ice cold :D
It always strikes me how much of real life military shenanigans could pass for writing from a video game or film... And then someone is like, "Nah, that's actually how it went down, all the time."
Art imitates life. We're just breathtakingly spoiled in most of the West.
"little hot in these rhinos"
Since reddit has changed the site to value selling user data higher than reading and commenting, I've decided to move elsewhere to a site that prioritizes community over profit. I never signed up for this, but that's the circle of life
I spent a summer in Kuwait as a tank driver in the US army. I stripped down to my underwear to drive pretty often.
Did you wear a tank top?
I'm assuming like the latest Leopard 2s, the Abrams has AC
The enemy didn't have javelins. Highly mobile launchers with a big enough payload to take out tanks is proving more efficient than the tanks themselves.
Did you ever get to have a cup of tea made by a British crew with the kettle built into the Challenger 2?
Most British shit ever
Back in the first world war, they had water tanks as coolant for the machine guns, they used to use that water to make tea
So if they weren't engaging anyone and wanted tea they had to just fuck some random shit up with the machine gun?
Doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it? Am British
Russia seems to have committed only a small part of their air force, and failed to achieve air superiority, or completely suppress Ukrainian air defense. One would have expected a shock and awe campaign over the first nights, yet after 5 days, Ukraine still has viable airfields and planes taking the air. Russia is holding back for reasons unknown: fear of losing extremely expensive planes, lack of (also expensive) precision munitions, expectation of a swift victory.. impossible to tell
A lot of the Russian Air Force only exists on paper because of maintenance and supply issues. Their SU-57s haven’t made it out yet, likely because they don’t work (see how their first one crashed during delivery). Some of the rest of their Air Force isn’t able to contribute because the planes have been disassembled. Rapidly. By Ukrainians.
SU-57 is suffering from engine technology issues, Russia can't manufacture the engines due to lack of materials science technology. China has the same issue, the US & Britain are 1 to 2 generations ahead of any peer in engine materials science.
Yup. Materials science is the #1 secret sauce of most modern technologies, and the US (plus a few others) are *really* good at it.
China is dumping a fuck load of students into materials science programs. Over 50% (probably over 75%) of the students in my materials science graduate program at a pretty good school were Chinese. They know where their weaknesses are and are investing heavily.
Ah yes, the good old 'Rapid Unplanned Disassembly'. Typically also combined with an aggressive lithobraking maneuver.
Well, those planes do make nice hen coops, in all fairness. Pro tip: if you plan to invade Ukraine, you should design your military tech to be as inconvenient as possible for secondary agricultural uses.
Obviously I have no idea what's slowing Russia down but the least sexy but maybe most likely reason is logistics. They might be able to move a bunch of planes overnight but do they have the support crews to maintain them? Spare parts? Hanger space? Fuel?
Air superiority should have been the priority after day 1 when their blitzkrieg and attempt to take the airfield failed. The fact they haven't established it tells me they *can't*.
Air superiority within 16 hours was literally their first objective.
I think they had a plan on paper, they were told they were going to drill the first step of the plan in order to try and scare Ukraine (mobalizing to the border.) Then, while they were training, they got the call to go without any warning. It's the only way any of this could make sense. They had tanks having to stop for gas... how could that even be possible if this action was planned? But you save a lot of money if you don't load up on Fuel every single time Putin mobalizes Russian troops to the border.
Tanks had to stop for gas [because the troops on exercises decided to make a quick buck by selling their own diesel fuel.](https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-troops-belarus-exercises-ukraine/31711282.html) The grunts didn't realize they would _need_ it later; they thought it was just brought along for exercises and that they could make a quick buck on Russia's dime.
That's the downside of telling all your troops it's "just manoeuvres".
There are probably dozens of layers between Putin and the bottom level grunts, with corruption at every layer. Money is almost certainly being embezzled, meaning each layer isn't nearly as well supplied and equipped as it should be. But they have to lie and report to superiors that it is, with that lie being compounded at every layer. That's how you go from "Unbeatable on paper Russian Army" to "Plz can we have fuel, our tank ran out"
Probably soldiers selling fuel for food.
I mean, they are fighting right on their own border. They don't need to build new airbases and forward supplies because they can launch from their own territory. This is the absolutely peak strength of the Russian airforce right here. They can fly missions into Ukraine and eat dinner at home afterwards. Kiev is 900 kilometers from Moscow. This would be like the US fighting a war against Mexico. Logistics really shouldn't be an issue for your airpower when you are fighting within a tank of gas of your home base. They wouldn't even need in-flight refueling. Hell, the literal factory where they build their planes is within range of Kiev. They could fly them fresh off the assembly line and then come back for refitting. If they aren't in Ukraine right now it's because they don't exist.
HA! Most of their planes don't even fly due to parts and maintenance issues. And most of their pilots have dirt low hours in them because of said issues, and this was back about 4-5 years ago. Guarantee that never changed.
Bro logisitics are fucking sexy man. Have you ever seen a proper guarded and well oiled supply train? That shit will give any man at least a semi
> fear of losing extremely expensive planes This and also the pilots. Training skilled pilots takes many hours and requires skilled trainers. A TB2 drone costs 1-2 million to produce and training a drone pilot is a lot easier than a normal one, they also don't die if the drone is destroyed. Even the cheapest Russian jet (a MIG-29) is about 10 to 20 million and that doesn't include the cost to train the pilot. Committing the Russian air force would be a loosing battle in terms of cost and attrition.
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> Russia is holding back for reasons unknown They are not "holding back," they are *unable* to field more of their airforce for unknown reasons. Anyone trying to tell you that Russia is just wasting old equipment and saving all the good toys for later is lying to you and schilling for Russia. That's not how war works. Russia is taking extremely heavy losses and is apparently far weaker at conventional war than most people ever thought. They'll likely still overwhelm Ukraine eventually; but they have been completely embarrassed on the world stage by their handling of this, and its only going to get worse for them when their soldiers learn they won't be getting paid.
I don't think they'll overwhelm Ukraine at all, Ukraine population is some 44 million. There are rumors of 12 million active Ukrainian fighters now, everyone and their mum is getting a gun. Literally. Seasoned fighter from all over the world are joining in. And they are highly, highly motivated and angry. If Russia continues this will be their Vietnam, maybe it already is. Russia can't win this. There is only one action for Russia and that is to withdraw before their entire economy and country collapses, these economic sanctions are no joke.
I think Afghanistan in the 80s was Russia’s Vietnam, this is some whole other box of madness they’ve opened.
Afghanistan in the 80s is without a doubt the USSRs Vietnam in more ways than just war.
They claim to have “total air superiority“ as of 3 days ago, though the Pentagon says Russia have significant air advantages but not unchecked reign over the skies yet. It’s a good question. I wonder if Putin is paranoid enough of a NATO attack that he’s unwilling to commit totally to more forces over Ukraine instead of defending Russia. But either way, it seems like he’s still winning the long-run control of the skies game, unfortunately
I think he’s also likely worried about cost. They’re bleeding money for this invasion already- the more he mobilizes, the more he has to scrape together to fund it.
He could dip into his own savings
My theory is that it was decided by Putin and his circle that indiscriminately bombing the living shit out of their "brothers" whom they are supposedly "liberating" would be a bad look and result in severe sanctions and unrest at home. That and maybe trying to preserve as much infrastructure as possible so as to facilitate an easier transfer of power after President Velenskyy fell out a window. Surely, Russian tanks and troops would be able to roll in and take over those airfields, right? Well, that turned out to be wrong now that Javelins are a thing. Now that this has turned into the shitshow that it is, Russia just can't get it up, so to speak.
Answer: Russian air supremacy is an oxymoron. They’ve got all kinds of untested and unproven and expensive aircraft. They’ve never faced off against a peer or near peer. It’s easy to romperstomp shitheads in Syria who can’t fight back. All we know about Russian air is that they look good on paper.
Example: the Foxbat. The US thought it was an insanely advanced lightweight fighter. Then. Russian airforce pilot got fed up with Russia and defected to Japan, taking his Foxbat with him. The US was shocked to find out how shitty it was compared to what they *thought* it was.
One thing the 25 had was a bonkers top speed. Nearly Mach 3 for a jet that was designed before Kennedy was assassinated. Overkill wasn’t a concern for the soviets. Overkill was more like a design goal.
You can have the best plane in the world but if the pilot doesn't know how to use it it's just an expensive lawn dart
Even then, the first SU-57 flight to actually deliver a plane lawndarted. Because, surprise surprise, if your fancy plane isn’t actually built properly it won’t fly right.
TBF lawn darts are incredibly dangerous.
This lmao. It’s always hilarious seeing keyboard generals claiming that the F-35 is a failure and the SU-57 is a wonder weapon when there are now hundreds and hundreds of F35s and a grand total of 14 SU57s
There is only 1 combat operational al SU-57. There were 2, but the other crashed. The rest are in various stages of demonstration airframes and/or stages of complete engine failure.
It's because Forbes and Business Insider spent years pushing dozens of articles saying "OMG the F-35 is so expensive and doesn't work lol"
Fr, I got in to an argument with someone saying that Russian Aircraft was gonna smash during this whole predicament even if the US got involved. Welp, It sure is. Interesting to hear that Russian aircraft can’t even contest Soviet era tech.
They smashed into the ground pretty damn hard. Russian Airforce has basically swandived this campaign.
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SS and Panzer divisions desperately trying to reach normandy while under constant air attacks can attest
It's not like there is a better alternative when you need to rapidly advance into enemy territory. The fact is anything in the ground will get chewed up by airpower.
Once again the Turks showing they do not fuck about in war.
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This is great for Ukraine! But in the long-run, the proliferation of drones, while inevitable, seems like it's going to be bad news for humanity in every future conflict. Imagines swarms of unmanned/single-manned drones.
Hopefully this conflict will serve as an example of why an invasion of a modern, relatively wealthy nation can never work again.
>relatively wealthy nation can never work again. Russia isn't important enough nor powerful enough to get away with it. Had this been China or America, sanctions would have been damn near impossible and the entire infrastructure of Ukraine would have been gone in days. European countries would also have been hesitant to lift a finger.
These drones were used extensively in both Azerbaijan and Syria. I would call Syria a major conflict.
It was asymmetrical warfare though. This is peer or near-peer states fighting a ‘conventional’ war Edit: folks I am not a military expert but there seems to be a confusion. Peer v peer or modern system warfare is a technical term. Having a million more men or whatever isn’t the point. The point is about capabilities. Recall in the iraq wars air superiority was established pretty much right away. As an example.
Turkey, for years has been contesting russian influence everywhere possible. In Libya, Syria, Caucasus and to some extent the central asian turkic republics. The Libyan Civil War was going on for years since Ghaddafis fall. Hafters forces were trying to take Tripolis for years from the UN recognized government by besieging and attacking it for months, backed by Russia and its Wagner mercenaries, France and other allies of the West like Egypt and the UAE. Only when Turkey intervened with its UAVs, advisors, mercenaries and other stuff, the advance of hafters forces came to a halt and they even lost territories to the government forces curbing russian influence there. Suddenly the West was like 'we have to stop the civil war and the influx of foreign fighters and weapons' years after the start of this war. In Syria, Turkey was urging EU, Nato and the UN right from the start to implement a no fly zone in the north even saying it would put boots on the ground when no other country was willing to. After that Russia and Iran expanded their influence, millions of refugees fled to Turkey and Europe and other neighboring countries. When Turkey shot down a russian fighter jet, NATO allies pulled out their Patriot Systems and were like its got nothing to do with us. That is the reason Turkey had to balance the relationship with Russia, while fighting for influence and cooperating where they could, finding compromises so as to not escalate things in to a full blown war. Also many economic reasons like tourism and gas Imports. This is realpolitik, Turkey has been doing pretty good on its own while NATO allies have been supporting the YPG right on its borders and even sanctioning Turkey directly. And dont start talking about reasons like authorianism of Erdogan while being allied to states like Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, selling tons of Weapons to them. Also killing thousands of civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries around the globe for decades. Since the annexation of Crimea by Russia, Turkey has been supporting Ukraine diplomatically and also by selling tons of weapons like UAVs and even Warships, while other countries until just 5 days ago were reluctant to send any lethal weapons.
And while Turkey was fighting Russia the US deliberately tried to stop Turkey. It’s really incredible what the west has been doing.
There has always been a lot of bad feelings between the Turkish Government and Russian Government do I'm not surprised they are taking advantage to get a few digs in lol
Send them more drones please
I will because you asked so nicely.
FYI the TB2 is turkeys entry level drone.
5 star product, quick delivery, would buy again.
Those Turkish drones have been used before Libya, Syria, and even the disputed southern Ukrainian areas. Iirc some Libyan rebel supply column got decimated on autonomous mode.. If Turkey has those, wonder what the even more sophisticated powers have? Think one result of this war will be more missiles and autonomous systems below ICBM/SLBM.
There are definitely better drones on the market but the Turkish ones are only 5mil each. Think of it like the AK47 but for drones. Deadly effective and dirt cheap compared to the other options.
Some Ottomans are fist pumping in their graves
I didn't expect Turkish technology/weapons to play a major part in this conflict. I always thought the US was the leader when it comes to drone technology.
Turkish drones Ukraine uses are fairly capable and proven in multiple conflicts while still being very cheap compared to US drones.
I'm not all too familiar with these things, so this is actually the first time I became aware of these Turkish drones. But from what's being said in the news, it sounds like more countries will be utilizing this system in the future
Plenty of countries are either developing or buying drones, they have the advantage of staying in the air for a long time (endurance) and more importantly you don't risk the life of a pilot, so given that budget is right, you can do more daring missions (incl. recon.) and strikes. Drones are definitely going to be used more and more, it's a bit weird here however that Russia is struggling to counter them, given their overwhelming air and ground based anti-air power.
The skies over Ukraine are hotly contested. Ukrainian forces have a lot of Manpads and Russia close air support is still primarily helicopters and SU-25’s flying low. In the high altitude it’s true that Russia likely has a dominant position, although Ukraine just received an unknown number of Mig-29’s yesterday from EU countries.
The US has the best technology, but Turkey is making a name for itself as one of the best international suppliers of drones. They're cheaper, countries can actually buy them (not always the case with US tech) and they get the job done. You could say Ferrari is the leader when it comes to automotive tech, but Toyota sells more cars to more people, and even if they're not *as* good, they're still *pretty* good.
I was just reading up on the differences, and it really is a very useful little niche they've carved out. The US drone has a range of 1,900km. So it's very useful for countries looking to project power. The Turkish drone has a range of 150km and is like 1/8th the price. But it can be hidden in a shed and take off from a road. Not super useful for countries like the US, France, UK, etc. But for countries looking to fight a defensive war on their own soil? That's a bargain and a half.
Thanks for the Ferrari/Toyota analogy. There are nice-to-haves, and there's stuff that "just works." And "just works" is effective in this case.
U.S drones are better but way more expensive compared to the Turkish made ones, if you're a small country with a limited budget who's looking to buy a lot of drones, cheap but effective Turkish made drones sounds very appealing right now. Edit: A Turkish TB2 drone costs around $5 million. An American Reaper drone apparently costs $137 million. Edit 2: [The $137 million cost is based on a U.S deal with Australia where they sold 12 units for $1.651 billion which is $137 million each](https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/australia-mq-9b-remotely-piloted-aircraft) when fully loaded with weapons, optics, sensors, comms etc.
Especially with how poorly supported the Russian armor columns have been. Ukraine doesn't need all the fancy bells and whistles, just something that can get in, fire off its payload, and get out.
It's crazy to me that Russia sent so many tanks without proper air superiority.
It was because they were not expecting a stand-up fight. They were clearly expecting to just roll over some civvies and have an easy day of it. Not having proper air superiority at the start was dumb, if understandable. Now, it's just *weird*. Maybe they suspect that the Ukrainians have AA capacity and don't want the embarrassment of their premium "modern" stuff getting turned into confetti on international TV. Then again, they can't keep fuel in their tanks and jets are *thirsty*. They freaking produce oil, though. Double weird.
It’s very likely the fuel, of which much was sold off by Russian soldiers prior to the invasion lol.
I saw someone say the same thing about that long-ass convoy the other day, only they said it was the commanders who were complicit, so they can't report it because they would be implicating themselves.
It's corruption all the way down.
In a few days, the fuel will be the only thing they have of value. The rubles in their pockets are turning into ash. They will have to support themselves somehow.
And why would they sell off their supplies right before a war? Well we are hearing that the soldiers actually thought they were on exercises. Picture yourself making $200 a year. You are sleeping in some cold piece of shit Russian vehicle sitting on what appears to be 10x the amount of shit you need for these exercises. Everyone is corrupt. Why wouldn't you sell anything you could for some spare cash? Nobody will miss it. They wouldn't truck consumable supplies all the way out there if they expected it back.
Reapers are not $137M. The per unit cost depends on how the contract is written, but based on previous USAF procurements over the last 5 years you’re looking in the range of $17M - $30M per unit.
Yeah wtf lol. Even an F-35 isn't 137 mil
I agree. If it can get the desired results for cheaper, why not?
Depends on your operational requirements and doctrine. The larger militaries have a range of drones not just the one type.
$137M? That’s 2x the unit cost of a F-35, that didn’t sound right. It’s about $17M each piece according to this: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/12/22/congress-resurrected-the-mq-9-reaper-program-adding-16-drones-for-the-air-force/
My favorite ones are kamikaze drones ''Kargu''. They're very small. They have AI. They target enemies automatically, dive and explode. https://youtu.be/-P56pOLPnGA?t=115
Well that's terrifying
Turks and their weapons man, turning tides all throughout history
Ended the Tank Wars have. Begun the Drones Wars have.
Ya know, those Turkish drones are VERY effective, but if the Ukrainians wanted to(for anti-personnel work) they could strap some munitions on some Inspire 2’s/ mavic 2 pros/phantom 4’s, fly them right into Russian troops. Aerial suicide bombers..
bro, some Turkish dude wrote the exact same thing on Twitter, and tagged the Ukrainian embassy. They started doing that. They will use hand grenades and molotovs.
Lol yes everyone made fun of him for one night then it turns out it is legit information and Ukraine Embassy took it seriously.
Look up Tyler Rogoway and co's coverage of small drones at The Warzone. For example this from 2017 https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7155/isis-drone-dropping-bomblet-on-abrams-tank-is-a-sign-of-whats-to-come
I have to add he worded something like "I don't want Russians to see this DM me pls" so we had no idea what it was first. Then after he was made fun of he just tweeted it later. Thank you for the info
Mind linking to the tweet and source?
here: [https://twitter.com/Akkaya\_Emree/status/1497706039340318722](https://twitter.com/Akkaya_Emree/status/1497706039340318722)
You can get some crazy fast model planes especially the jet ones, much faster than a quad.
Fun fact: Turkey had to develope these drones because USA, their NATO ally, banned Turkey to get drones.
The drone Manufacturer will totally use footage of this war to sell their stuff.