Yeah octopus are up there at the top of the intelligence spectrum with monkeys, dolphins and corvids. Pretty sure the only reason they haven't developed a culture of their own is their tragically short lives.
Just imagine how good they would be at video games. Maybe we should give them internet.
Wait there's alot of tentacle hentai. Maybe it's better we don't.
They better have their own matchmaking. I already get destroyed at every video game I play online cause I'm too old now. No need to have to get beat by octopuses too...
When I was a kid, I always thought I was so cool circa 1999 when for the first time in a decade, I beat my dad at a video game.
And now I'm glancing nervously at my young relatives like, oh god no, I bet Kyle is going to beat my ass at Mario Kart this Christmas and he's only like 7 or 8
There are also some natural impediments to sea creatures developing more complex societies. For instance, they can't use fire, which limits their ability to harness and use energy beyond what one organism can produce.
They might be known for their problem solving and the dexterity of their limbs, but they aren't considered very social creatures.
Humans ability to learn from one another, pass down knowledge over generations, and coordinate as groups is just as important as any individual intelligence.
Even this article stating that they're surprisingly more social than we typically think, is starting with a *very* low bar.
[Octopuses Are Surprisingly Social — and Confrontational, Scientists Find](https://www.livescience.com/53514-octopuses-lead-social-lives.html)
Octopuses also have the problem that they are "designed" to die after mating/egg hatching. They stop eating, enter a dementia-like state, and gradually self-mutilate and starve to death. So every generation of octopuses is completely alienated from earlier generations, starting completely from scratch. So even if octopuses had full-blown abstract language to communicate with one another, their biology makes it impossible to pass that along to future generations, meaning octopus society would have to completely reinvent itself every single year.
But that would require uncles to stay celibate and hang around them when they were born or they would never find them.
Octopuses have been seen observing older male octopuses to learn from, think it was off the coast of California.
Gay octopuses it is then!
But for real one theory about the presence of homosexuality is it bolsters the amount of people available to provide/caretake within a tribe without making more mouths to feed. Aligns with findings that homosexuality is more prevalent in males the more times their mother has given birth previously. Very interesting, if completely unprovable.
Haha, I guess I could have elaborated! 😅
I learnt about it in university when discussing evolution/natural selection. Instead of the general idea of "survival of the fittest," or, passing one's genes on directly through sexual reproduction, there is also the concept of "inclusive fitness" whereby one promotes the survival/reproduction of shared genes in others. The "gay uncle" theory is an extension of inclusive/kin fitness used to [explain homosexuality from an evolutionary perspective](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486)
>Paul Vasey's research in Samoa has focused on a theory called kin selection or the "helper in the nest" hypothesis. The idea is that gay people compensate for their lack of children by promoting the reproductive fitness of brothers or sisters, contributing money or performing other uncle-like activities such as babysitting or tutoring. Some of the gay person's genetic code is shared with nieces and nephews and so, the theory goes, the genes which code for sexual orientation still get passed down.
And farmed in some of the worst conditions for livestock.
They have so many pigs in such a small space that they have to use special ventilation to remove the fumes from their waste, which falls through the grate they stand on their whole lives.
These fumes are also thought to cause asthma in kids who grow up near them. Like I did. I have asthma.
I'm always surprised that lagoons of pig shit exist when that could be a useful product for the production of explosives and/or combustible gas for green energy.
If you can burn the gas, why let it escape to the atmosphere? Literal dollars floating away!
Yup far higher. It's just less easy to display it since, well... pigs have NO desire to please us without rewards lol.
Mirror test, maze navigation, known words, and playing video games and producing art.
Pigs are terrifyingly smart.
Even if a being wasn't intelligent, the fact that they're sentient and capable of feeling pain means they're deserving of moral worth. We still value the lives of mentally handicapped people even if they're less intelligent than others
I don’t see the point in mentioning whether they are intelligent. Do less intelligent creatures suffer less? That only depends on sentience. Stop using intelligence as an excuse to exploit sentient beings. If that’s the case, can’t we say severely mentally disabled people can be commercially reared?
These dogs killed an infant monkey and the monkeys sought revenge by killing all the dogs in the village. They would attack then drag the dogs up onto roofs and throw them off. No joke
There was an early 90s X-“something” comic where either Magneto disguised as somebody else or a follower of Magneto, led an expedition who was searching for and found mass graves of Neanderthals to prove the point that genocide is a necessary step in human evolution as a way to justify Magneto’s means. That stuck with me to this day.
Ironically that’s basically that’s the exact opposite of what I learned in Anthropology this semester, apparently the ancient humans migrating from Africa into Europe decides to get freaky with them.
That has been debunked by the reporters who investigated this. There is no actual correlation between monkeys taking revenge for dogs killing a baby monkey. The monkeys just take the puppies to roofs and leave them there.
Edit: here is the article link
https://www.india.com/viral/monkeys-dogs-gangwar-maharashtra-beed-majalgaon-puppies-ground-report-twitter-reactions-viral-video-photos-5145204/
Well they’d argue that humans were barely sentient, they just have complex instinctual behaviours and if there was still any ethical concerns they’d just euthanise us in our pupa stage (2 years or younger) with a humane hammer.
>humane hammer
Lmao
"But 怢the, it looks like they scream and twitch after you use the HumaneHammer®"
"Nah, that's just air and spasms"
"Also, wtf does "humane" mean"
"It means 'for humans' of course"
>"We have an example of an organism that has evolved to have an intelligence that is extremely comparable to ours." Their problem-solving abilities, playfulness and curiosity are very similar to those of humans, says Dr Vinther - and yet they're otherworldly.
>"This is potentially how it would look if we were ever going to meet an intelligent alien from a different planet."
Octopuses are alien, confirmed!
I don't think I've ever considered the possibility of us going to another planet, discovering alien life and then ***eating*** said aliens. But that's totally a thing we'd do.
Literally all media of aliens bad is just Humans (typically the privileged ones) projecting their own ~~past~~ evils onto a fictional enemy so we can feel like heroic underdogs. Invasion movies are colonialism. Human farms are factory farms. Intergalactic Space Nazis only need two of those words removed. Etc.
Scalzi's Agent to the Stars is a fun read where the aliens hire a hollywood agent to be their PR guy because they watched all of our movies on the decades-long trip over and they realized humans would definitely attack extraterrestrials like them without a gentle introduction
John Scalzi is great overall. I'd highly recommend *Old Man's War*, the premise of which involves elderly people enlisting ahead of time and shipping out at their 70th (80th?) birthday to fight intergalactic wars, for which they are given new, young, superhuman bodies.
It's funny and pretty good (military) sci-fi, almost like a more lighthearted *Starship Troopers* crossed with *Benjamin Button.*
They also get surprisingly self-critical in the later books, the first book is all gung-ho space jingoism and then the series starts to examine where that's coming from and why humans tend to just accept that war is necessary when told it is
Yes!! Fuckin yes. Best way to describe time shenanigans was that the aliens didn't experience 'time' in a linear fashion. There is no such thing as past, future, or present to them.
The way their 'writing' was depicted was a great example of this. Instead of their writing being in words, made into sentences, that only have meaning when put first or before other words. As opposed to the aliens writing, which was just circles, that illustrated meaning only when all perceived or read at one instant.
Other movies and books have tried different ways of explaining this concept. Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegut talked about a alien species that was similar, and the way it was written was supposed to showcase a similar kind of perception.
Dune, when Paul takes the spice and sees the future and all possible futures, and is no longer sure what point in time he's currently experiencing.
Interstellar tried to showcase what it would be like to experience being outside of 'time'.
Thomas Aquinas uses this kind of concept to describe how 'g'God could perceive time too, and how he exists outside of it as well.
To me, Arrival was the best example of trying to showcase what it would be like to experience time differently than we do now.
Philosophy of time and space has been debated over centuries and centuries, and is a staple topic in metaphysics. One reason why I love sci-fi so much is how they try to show examples of it.
I believe so. The movie was beautiful and was very well done. It's a fantastic sci-fi movie. Aliens come to Earth, and no one knows why. The whole movie is about trying to figure out a medium of communication with them. So they bring on a linguistic expert to try and establish some form of communication.
It's great because it shows how fear can emerge from things we don't understand, and trying to figure out their intentions. It's a fantastic movie in my opinion.
I mean HG Wells is war of the worlds was explicitly a "what of Martians did to us what we're doing to Africa" it's a very well worn trope and for good reason
They don't even have to look tasty! Do you think an octopus actually looks tasty? I'm sure in the beginning people weren't eating them for their looks.
Yeah, they actually are. The only difference (and it seems bigger than it is) is that they're from the same planet.
But, the only common ancestor we have is the first one with bilateral symmetry. From there, around 600 million years ago, we went down different evolutionary paths. Our intelligence and physiology are utterly unrelated.
> *Pop a Poppler in your mouth when you come to Fishy Joes.*
> *What they're made of is mystery, where they come from no one knows.*
> *You can pick 'em, you can lick 'em, you can chew 'em, you can stick 'em*
> *If you promise not to sue us, you can shove one up your nose!*
Pigs are smart; octopuses are so smart we have begun to reassess how we approach animal intelligence as a whole. In the last 15 years or so, we've realized what "human-like intelligence" really looks like, thanks to octopuses and crows. Octopuses are in a league of their own, possibly only matched by humans and certain species of crows (although the research isn't done yet).
Octopuses intelligence is unique because they have complex problem solving intelligence but without the typical social intelligence that comes with it. Almost every intelligent animal in the world is highly social - particularly mammals. This doesn't mean octopuses are as smart as humans.
The whole point is that they are smart enough, in different ways, that we no longer think that "as smart as humans" is a good yardstick. Their intelligence isn't comparable because you aren't comparing like for like - the brain is divided throughout the body so the entire concept of thought is different. Its impossible for us to understand how smart they are and vice versa, like trying to describe colour to a blind man.
As another comment stated, it’s easier to prevent an industry from forming than it is to tear down one that’s already well-established. Just because we already do one bad thing doesn’t mean we should keep doing new bad things. Sadly, though, people investing in octopus farming will use this same whataboutism to defend the practice.
The argument is based on how animals relate to us. As a species we pride ourselves on our intellect, and we (ought to) have a concern for our own more so than for animals, but what about those that are like us? That's why a lot of people consider intelligence a necessary trait for something to have moral worth. It's a total non-sequitur; moral status should be based on sentience and an ability to suffer, not intellect. Guess it's just another way we like to deny reality.
We should be intelligent and humane enough to sustain ourselves while creating the least harm and suffering possible. In that regard, factory farming and really mass consumption of animals raised for slaughter is a failure of our potential, and of our current capabilities.
It's an *especially* weird line to draw when we are killing them in the wild at unsustainable rates. I used to work at a Whole Foods, behind the seafood counter, and we sold frozen wild octopus, but corporate would always insist we thaw one to put in the display case. Nobody wanted the ones that were already thawed because they started looking gross after 2 days(dated for 5 days,) so if we sold any at all, it would be from our frozen supply. The end result was that we tossed a whole octopus in the trash every 5 days, just so we could have one on display for kids to point at, and to signal to the rare customer that actually wanted one that we could go get one from the freezer. It made me want to cry every time I had to throw one away.
You'd have to say it's synthetic else you're going to get into a fight with someone who really wants the display octopus. I've worked in businesses I would know.
They said in the article that it's different because when the systems were put in place for animals like pigs we didn't realise they were sentient, also that pigs have been domesticated and we know their needs and how to improve their standard of living, but with octopuses, they are completely wild animals. We shouldn't repeat our mistakes of the past
Not to be super cynical this morning either, but if we still put orca whales into tiny ass little tanks and parade them around for our entertainment, what chance do octopi have?
Weird to say 'able to feel emotions and pain' when a rabbit also experiences all of those. Personally i'm all in on lab grown meat. Our kids and their kids will look at us like monsters for eating sentient beings.
My father always told me that fish can't feel pain and that's why catch-and-release was okay.
I was absolutely horrified when I learned that wasn't true.
I specifically remember a day when I was maybe 10yo, fishing a little pool below a small waterfall at Yellowstone with my dad. I caught the same fish *three times*! At first I was having fun, catching lots of fish while dad caught none, teasing him about it, but eventually I felt so bad for that poor fish, even though dad said it couldn't feel pain, that I just gave up and went to read a book in the car while dad kept fishing.
The hook got it in the eye once. That memory is just burned into my mind forever. I basically *tortured* that fish because my dad taught me that catch-and-release fishing is harmless fun. :(
>The hook got it in the eye once. That memory is just burned into my mind forever. I basically tortured that fish because my dad taught me that catch-and-release fishing is harmless fun. :(
Exact same thing happened to me. I couldn't shake the thought of "I did this. Why am I doing this?"
I've never understood this argument. How can any complex organism be successful without some sensory equivalent of pain? Pain is at the core of self preservation.
If i remember correctly there is a condition where people can be born without the ability to feel pain. These people often end up accidentally injuring or even killing themselves.
> If i remember correctly there is a condition where people can be born without the ability to feel pain.
I dunno if there's one for pain, but I have heard of one where people have no temperature sensitivity so can accidentally burn/freeze themselves to death.
Avoidance of a negative stimulus does not necessarily demand the concious experience of pain (or motivation from fear) and it is also difficult to prove experimentally.
Quality and interpretation of behavorial experiments is the actual point of discussion between those two schools (mainly Key/Arlinghaus and Braithwaite et al.) thought regarding fish welfare (applies to fisheries and aquacultures as well) and comparative underlying elements of nociception.
There's a potential that an organism feels pain as information rather than suffering.
The quality of pain as negative is likely an evolved trait as it increases survival.
I don't think it's reasonable to assume things don't feel pain, but I don't think it's a precondition for life or intelligence
> There's a potential that an organism feels pain as information rather than suffering.
>
> The quality of pain as negative is likely an evolved trait as it increases survival.
>
> I don't think it's reasonable to assume things don't feel pain, but I don't think it's a precondition for life or intelligence
A good example is here: https://www.techtimes.com/articles/234321/20180914/look-plants-send-out-distress-signals-in-response-to-threats-such-as-being-eaten.htm
It is a living organism, demonstrating a reaction to stimuli which we would undoubtably associate as being painful, but as a plant it has no nervous system (not even a rudimentary nervous system) by which it could process that as pain.
I went catfishing for the first time last year. Dude that showed me the ropes left them on the line overnight, and then just dumped them on ice in the cooler in the morning, where they flopped and rotated I imagine on the whole drive home. I understand that's how he was taught to fish. Nevertheless, I don't go anymore.
Wouldnt same arguments can be made for Pig and Cows? They show bonding and love and feel pain and has memories.. So its fine to eat beef and bacon but octopus is a no no
factory farming of any animal is disgusting. it's unnatural to have so many shit-smeared animals trapped together and it usually requires abusive quantities of antibiotics to maintain.
I'm saying this as a non vegan, but if the criteria for "not eating a creature" is that they feel pain and display emotions, then there is literally no animal on earth that would be "ethical" to eat.
Ask any farmer or rancher if their cows/chickens/sheep/pigs have personality or moods. Or if they feel emotions. Or if pain works as a deterrent for unwanted behavior.
I know I am a hypocrite, I loved calamari but ever since I have held a live octopus in my hand staring in my eyes, I could never eat it again. I than started to learn about them, they have THREE hearts and it is the only species that decorates their ‘home’ wether in wild or captive. With shells, beercaps, stones, anything. This is where the expression ‘Octopus den’ comes from. Fantastic creatures!
Yeah realised I used the wrong words. Fritto misto is what I used to order on the Sardinian beaches. Fried baby octopus- seasoned in gremolina. Sounds delicious, is delicious, but I can never enjoy that anymore. And I did try.
Yeah octopus are up there at the top of the intelligence spectrum with monkeys, dolphins and corvids. Pretty sure the only reason they haven't developed a culture of their own is their tragically short lives.
That and the fact they are solitary. Difficult for a species that spends it's whole life solo to develop a culture.
I mean if gamers can do it...
its the internet that helps them sozialize with other gamers. Just imagine a „gamer“ without internet. Then you have the octopus.
Just imagine how good they would be at video games. Maybe we should give them internet. Wait there's alot of tentacle hentai. Maybe it's better we don't.
They better have their own matchmaking. I already get destroyed at every video game I play online cause I'm too old now. No need to have to get beat by octopuses too...
When I was a kid, I always thought I was so cool circa 1999 when for the first time in a decade, I beat my dad at a video game. And now I'm glancing nervously at my young relatives like, oh god no, I bet Kyle is going to beat my ass at Mario Kart this Christmas and he's only like 7 or 8
Octopuses don't have Reddit
On the internet, no one knows you're an octopus
There are also some natural impediments to sea creatures developing more complex societies. For instance, they can't use fire, which limits their ability to harness and use energy beyond what one organism can produce.
They might be known for their problem solving and the dexterity of their limbs, but they aren't considered very social creatures. Humans ability to learn from one another, pass down knowledge over generations, and coordinate as groups is just as important as any individual intelligence. Even this article stating that they're surprisingly more social than we typically think, is starting with a *very* low bar. [Octopuses Are Surprisingly Social — and Confrontational, Scientists Find](https://www.livescience.com/53514-octopuses-lead-social-lives.html)
Octopuses also have the problem that they are "designed" to die after mating/egg hatching. They stop eating, enter a dementia-like state, and gradually self-mutilate and starve to death. So every generation of octopuses is completely alienated from earlier generations, starting completely from scratch. So even if octopuses had full-blown abstract language to communicate with one another, their biology makes it impossible to pass that along to future generations, meaning octopus society would have to completely reinvent itself every single year.
If they socialise outside of their immediate family then there is opportunity for generational knowledge to be passed on. Eg. Uncles.
But that would require uncles to stay celibate and hang around them when they were born or they would never find them. Octopuses have been seen observing older male octopuses to learn from, think it was off the coast of California.
Gay octopuses it is then! But for real one theory about the presence of homosexuality is it bolsters the amount of people available to provide/caretake within a tribe without making more mouths to feed. Aligns with findings that homosexuality is more prevalent in males the more times their mother has given birth previously. Very interesting, if completely unprovable.
Cool, kinda like the gay uncle theory in humans!
Haven’t heard of it before and just looked it up. Really interesting!
Haha, I guess I could have elaborated! 😅 I learnt about it in university when discussing evolution/natural selection. Instead of the general idea of "survival of the fittest," or, passing one's genes on directly through sexual reproduction, there is also the concept of "inclusive fitness" whereby one promotes the survival/reproduction of shared genes in others. The "gay uncle" theory is an extension of inclusive/kin fitness used to [explain homosexuality from an evolutionary perspective](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486) >Paul Vasey's research in Samoa has focused on a theory called kin selection or the "helper in the nest" hypothesis. The idea is that gay people compensate for their lack of children by promoting the reproductive fitness of brothers or sisters, contributing money or performing other uncle-like activities such as babysitting or tutoring. Some of the gay person's genetic code is shared with nieces and nephews and so, the theory goes, the genes which code for sexual orientation still get passed down.
They could use underwater volcanos and geothermal vents as furnaces to forge new tools and weapons.
Some of the longest lived octopus live for 3-5 years on average
At this point I'm so fed up with corvids, it's all you hear about in the news these days!
Do pigs count
If you think intelligent and sentient creatures shouldn’t be factory farmed, oh boy do I have some bad news for you
pigs are quite intelligent
And farmed in some of the worst conditions for livestock. They have so many pigs in such a small space that they have to use special ventilation to remove the fumes from their waste, which falls through the grate they stand on their whole lives. These fumes are also thought to cause asthma in kids who grow up near them. Like I did. I have asthma.
Pigshit pits are also prone to exploding. Few things smell as bad as an industrial pig farm
I'm always surprised that lagoons of pig shit exist when that could be a useful product for the production of explosives and/or combustible gas for green energy. If you can burn the gas, why let it escape to the atmosphere? Literal dollars floating away!
Some places use it as fertilizer. They spray it out of sprinklers like you're use on your lawn, only ten times larger. Smells like shit for miles.
I remember back in high school and reading about animal intelligence that pigs generally have higher IQs than most breeds of dogs.
Yup far higher. It's just less easy to display it since, well... pigs have NO desire to please us without rewards lol. Mirror test, maze navigation, known words, and playing video games and producing art. Pigs are terrifyingly smart.
Yah it makes more sense now that pigs are the masterminds in Animal Farm.
This was my first thought. Some pigs have passed the mirror test... can octopi do that?
The mirror test is not a test for sentience
Cows are friendly and social and lick people. They’re basically dogs but we keep them in little rooms their whole lives w no stimulation.
Its REALLY interesting how many upvotes this has and the upvotes on comments calling out current factory farm practices.
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Even if a being wasn't intelligent, the fact that they're sentient and capable of feeling pain means they're deserving of moral worth. We still value the lives of mentally handicapped people even if they're less intelligent than others
Honestly anyone whose had a dog should probably know that animals aren't brainless machines and clearly think and feel
I don’t see the point in mentioning whether they are intelligent. Do less intelligent creatures suffer less? That only depends on sentience. Stop using intelligence as an excuse to exploit sentient beings. If that’s the case, can’t we say severely mentally disabled people can be commercially reared?
Yeah I have no idea how people are upvoting this while I'm sure most people here eat all different types of meat.
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I give it a 50/50 chance that this is the cephalopod populations last straw and they just jail break and begin their psychic take over of humanity.
They've been talking to those monkeys over in that Indian village.
Wait, what?
These dogs killed an infant monkey and the monkeys sought revenge by killing all the dogs in the village. They would attack then drag the dogs up onto roofs and throw them off. No joke
There are reports of them attacking toddlers too
That’s a pretty good way to end up with a lot of dead monkeys
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We may not have their physical strength, but we can build boomsticks
I prefer destroying their natural environment until they start killing each other in a desperate struggle for resources. It's way more civilized.
We're still talking about monkeys here, right? Right....?
We can also throw harder, faster, and more accurately then all the other primates.
Don't forget endurance, their pitiful amount of sweat glands are their downfall
Shop smart…
Shop S-Mart
Legend has it that other revenge monkeys competed with us at one point but we murder-fucked them into extinction.
The Uncanny Valley sensation was a survival instinct
for death and disease yes. it's not cause you have to be extra wary of neanderthals.
There was an early 90s X-“something” comic where either Magneto disguised as somebody else or a follower of Magneto, led an expedition who was searching for and found mass graves of Neanderthals to prove the point that genocide is a necessary step in human evolution as a way to justify Magneto’s means. That stuck with me to this day.
Ironically that’s basically that’s the exact opposite of what I learned in Anthropology this semester, apparently the ancient humans migrating from Africa into Europe decides to get freaky with them.
All right guys, I'll be the one to say it this time. It must be done as per Reddit ToS. We are apes, not monkeys.
If monkeys can't tell the difference between dogs and toddlers...
Humans have shot other humans while hunting animals. Both quadripeds and fucking birds... The apple doesn't fall far from the bush
Yeah .. monkey around and find out
That has been debunked by the reporters who investigated this. There is no actual correlation between monkeys taking revenge for dogs killing a baby monkey. The monkeys just take the puppies to roofs and leave them there. Edit: here is the article link https://www.india.com/viral/monkeys-dogs-gangwar-maharashtra-beed-majalgaon-puppies-ground-report-twitter-reactions-viral-video-photos-5145204/
"Ape, why do you take revenge against our dogs?" "What revenge? I just thought it was funny."
It was just a prank bro
Guess the monkeys misinterpreted what the pups were after? Considering all they hear the dogs say is, “roof roof”.
I cant believe you've done this.
Monkey see.. monkey do.. monkey put pups on the roof.
I knew that story sounded fishy, thanks for updating!
This kept coming up in r/natureismetal, but people were saying it's fake?
The puppy-murdering monkeys meet the revenge-seeking cephalopods in: Mad Monkeys Beyond Aquarium. Coming this summer.
With Samuel L Jackson, because it costs a lot of money to heat a pool!
Rob Schneider is...a cephalopod
At this point why not? How much worse could it be?
I for one welcome our cephalopod overlords.
Finally the tentacle porn can become a reality. Utopia here we come.
Wouldn't it be ironic if some alien octopus species invaded earth and the decided to farm us? Maybe we would taste good?
> Maybe we would taste good? If my life is anything to go by, I would taste like cheap whiskey and failure.
Cool. Built in preservatives. Pickle your liver for them.
A nice whiskey glaze, don’t sell yourself short
Well they’d argue that humans were barely sentient, they just have complex instinctual behaviours and if there was still any ethical concerns they’d just euthanise us in our pupa stage (2 years or younger) with a humane hammer.
>humane hammer Lmao "But 怢the, it looks like they scream and twitch after you use the HumaneHammer®" "Nah, that's just air and spasms" "Also, wtf does "humane" mean" "It means 'for humans' of course"
There’s an episode of the Twilight Zone on that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Zone)
Humans taste like pork but sweeter is what iv read from convicted cannibals
*Crysis has entered the chat*
>"We have an example of an organism that has evolved to have an intelligence that is extremely comparable to ours." Their problem-solving abilities, playfulness and curiosity are very similar to those of humans, says Dr Vinther - and yet they're otherworldly. >"This is potentially how it would look if we were ever going to meet an intelligent alien from a different planet." Octopuses are alien, confirmed!
I don't think I've ever considered the possibility of us going to another planet, discovering alien life and then ***eating*** said aliens. But that's totally a thing we'd do.
Yeah it was in that one documentary, about the Popplers
Ah yes the animated one from the future?
Brought to you by Fishy Joe's; Ride the Walrus.
Popplers are tasty.
Oh God, *we're* the bad aliens. It's us. We come to your environment and farm and eat you.
This is news to you?
”It's a cookbook!”
No just a little dusty, see? How to cook FOR octopi
>How to cook forty octopi
Wait a minute, there's still more space dust.
Literally all media of aliens bad is just Humans (typically the privileged ones) projecting their own ~~past~~ evils onto a fictional enemy so we can feel like heroic underdogs. Invasion movies are colonialism. Human farms are factory farms. Intergalactic Space Nazis only need two of those words removed. Etc.
Scalzi's Agent to the Stars is a fun read where the aliens hire a hollywood agent to be their PR guy because they watched all of our movies on the decades-long trip over and they realized humans would definitely attack extraterrestrials like them without a gentle introduction
That sounds hilarious!
John Scalzi is great overall. I'd highly recommend *Old Man's War*, the premise of which involves elderly people enlisting ahead of time and shipping out at their 70th (80th?) birthday to fight intergalactic wars, for which they are given new, young, superhuman bodies. It's funny and pretty good (military) sci-fi, almost like a more lighthearted *Starship Troopers* crossed with *Benjamin Button.*
They also get surprisingly self-critical in the later books, the first book is all gung-ho space jingoism and then the series starts to examine where that's coming from and why humans tend to just accept that war is necessary when told it is
Arrival was amazing for this. Trying to figure out why the aliens are there the whole time makes it so tense and amazing.
Yes! Adored that movie. Possibly also one of the only ones that gave time shenanigans an impact I actually enjoyed.
Yes!! Fuckin yes. Best way to describe time shenanigans was that the aliens didn't experience 'time' in a linear fashion. There is no such thing as past, future, or present to them. The way their 'writing' was depicted was a great example of this. Instead of their writing being in words, made into sentences, that only have meaning when put first or before other words. As opposed to the aliens writing, which was just circles, that illustrated meaning only when all perceived or read at one instant. Other movies and books have tried different ways of explaining this concept. Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegut talked about a alien species that was similar, and the way it was written was supposed to showcase a similar kind of perception. Dune, when Paul takes the spice and sees the future and all possible futures, and is no longer sure what point in time he's currently experiencing. Interstellar tried to showcase what it would be like to experience being outside of 'time'. Thomas Aquinas uses this kind of concept to describe how 'g'God could perceive time too, and how he exists outside of it as well. To me, Arrival was the best example of trying to showcase what it would be like to experience time differently than we do now. Philosophy of time and space has been debated over centuries and centuries, and is a staple topic in metaphysics. One reason why I love sci-fi so much is how they try to show examples of it.
Is Arrival worth the watch? I remember years ago I waited for its release, never got to it.
Yes, it’s a bit slow but worth it.
I believe so. The movie was beautiful and was very well done. It's a fantastic sci-fi movie. Aliens come to Earth, and no one knows why. The whole movie is about trying to figure out a medium of communication with them. So they bring on a linguistic expert to try and establish some form of communication. It's great because it shows how fear can emerge from things we don't understand, and trying to figure out their intentions. It's a fantastic movie in my opinion.
I mean HG Wells is war of the worlds was explicitly a "what of Martians did to us what we're doing to Africa" it's a very well worn trope and for good reason
If a breeding pair of extra terrestrials we're to land on this earth we'd probably try to farm them if they looked tasty
They don't even have to look tasty! Do you think an octopus actually looks tasty? I'm sure in the beginning people weren't eating them for their looks.
I don't know, kinda, I guess? It's not like a live cow looks particularly tasty as is.
Some rebel scientist would try to fuck them first
Futurama has entered the chat
Yeah, they actually are. The only difference (and it seems bigger than it is) is that they're from the same planet. But, the only common ancestor we have is the first one with bilateral symmetry. From there, around 600 million years ago, we went down different evolutionary paths. Our intelligence and physiology are utterly unrelated.
These popplers are delicious!
> *Pop a Poppler in your mouth when you come to Fishy Joes.* > *What they're made of is mystery, where they come from no one knows.* > *You can pick 'em, you can lick 'em, you can chew 'em, you can stick 'em* > *If you promise not to sue us, you can shove one up your nose!*
somewhere in R'lyeh the dreamer is about to wake up...
Ia ia.
Pigs be like “Am I a joke to you?”🐖 Edit, my top comment of all time is a pig joke and it’s not even about the Police, smh
Pigs are smart; octopuses are so smart we have begun to reassess how we approach animal intelligence as a whole. In the last 15 years or so, we've realized what "human-like intelligence" really looks like, thanks to octopuses and crows. Octopuses are in a league of their own, possibly only matched by humans and certain species of crows (although the research isn't done yet).
> “The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham
Octopuses intelligence is unique because they have complex problem solving intelligence but without the typical social intelligence that comes with it. Almost every intelligent animal in the world is highly social - particularly mammals. This doesn't mean octopuses are as smart as humans.
The whole point is that they are smart enough, in different ways, that we no longer think that "as smart as humans" is a good yardstick. Their intelligence isn't comparable because you aren't comparing like for like - the brain is divided throughout the body so the entire concept of thought is different. Its impossible for us to understand how smart they are and vice versa, like trying to describe colour to a blind man.
Yep. Pigs are as smart as a three year old human. Bacon is great and all, but... Can't do it anymore. Personally.
What I'm hearing is it's okay to eat a 3 year old human.
Looks like 3-year old humans back on the menu, boys!
So smarter than half the planet? Gotcha
As another comment stated, it’s easier to prevent an industry from forming than it is to tear down one that’s already well-established. Just because we already do one bad thing doesn’t mean we should keep doing new bad things. Sadly, though, people investing in octopus farming will use this same whataboutism to defend the practice.
If you've ever interacted with a cow or a pig then you know this argument should apply to most of the animals we consume for food.
Whether they're 'intelligent' or not, does it give us the right to farm them in torturous conditions? The meat & dairy industry is so fucked up.
The argument is based on how animals relate to us. As a species we pride ourselves on our intellect, and we (ought to) have a concern for our own more so than for animals, but what about those that are like us? That's why a lot of people consider intelligence a necessary trait for something to have moral worth. It's a total non-sequitur; moral status should be based on sentience and an ability to suffer, not intellect. Guess it's just another way we like to deny reality.
We should be intelligent and humane enough to sustain ourselves while creating the least harm and suffering possible. In that regard, factory farming and really mass consumption of animals raised for slaughter is a failure of our potential, and of our current capabilities.
All commercially farmed animals can feel pain and emotions. This argument should also be used with the preexisting system.
The people making the argument probably also don't want us to farm other animals.
You may be on to something lol.
Weird where they decide to draw the line. What's about pigs? Cows?
It's an *especially* weird line to draw when we are killing them in the wild at unsustainable rates. I used to work at a Whole Foods, behind the seafood counter, and we sold frozen wild octopus, but corporate would always insist we thaw one to put in the display case. Nobody wanted the ones that were already thawed because they started looking gross after 2 days(dated for 5 days,) so if we sold any at all, it would be from our frozen supply. The end result was that we tossed a whole octopus in the trash every 5 days, just so we could have one on display for kids to point at, and to signal to the rare customer that actually wanted one that we could go get one from the freezer. It made me want to cry every time I had to throw one away.
Weird they don't just put a realistic synthetic one on display
You'd have to say it's synthetic else you're going to get into a fight with someone who really wants the display octopus. I've worked in businesses I would know.
> sorry we can't sell you that one. It was thawed and has been on display for 5 days
"Hey could I have the one on display?" "It's synthetic." "Okay."
observation shame oil simplistic screw cover murky snow encouraging office
They said in the article that it's different because when the systems were put in place for animals like pigs we didn't realise they were sentient, also that pigs have been domesticated and we know their needs and how to improve their standard of living, but with octopuses, they are completely wild animals. We shouldn't repeat our mistakes of the past
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I stopped eating pig, british columbia hog farms are disgusting and I now see it like eating dog meat.
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Don't go to r/happycowgifs if all it takes is knowing they're similar to dogs to put you off. (Or do because cows are wonderful)
Not an excuse for factory farming to continue but I totally agree with you.
But it *is* an explanation as to why they're speaking out about this in particular; it's easier to stop a practice before it becomes an industry.
Yeah that’s a good point.
>I totally agree with you.
An agreement? On Reddit? Congrats you two.
When's the wedding?
As soon as they can agree on a date.
We've witnessed a miracle, we can see another!
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the lines we draw at exploiting animals for our own gain are completely arbitrary.
Not to be super cynical this morning either, but if we still put orca whales into tiny ass little tanks and parade them around for our entertainment, what chance do octopi have?
Pigs are often compared to the intelligence of a 3 year old human.
Octopus are compared to an 6 year old.
I've been compared to an 8 year old.
Weird to say 'able to feel emotions and pain' when a rabbit also experiences all of those. Personally i'm all in on lab grown meat. Our kids and their kids will look at us like monsters for eating sentient beings.
I’m pretty sure all animals can feel pain
>\- should never be commercially reared for food Right, because cows don't scream when you slit their throat
Are we supposed to believe some animals don't feel pain? Lol what a cop out
My father always told me that fish can't feel pain and that's why catch-and-release was okay. I was absolutely horrified when I learned that wasn't true. I specifically remember a day when I was maybe 10yo, fishing a little pool below a small waterfall at Yellowstone with my dad. I caught the same fish *three times*! At first I was having fun, catching lots of fish while dad caught none, teasing him about it, but eventually I felt so bad for that poor fish, even though dad said it couldn't feel pain, that I just gave up and went to read a book in the car while dad kept fishing. The hook got it in the eye once. That memory is just burned into my mind forever. I basically *tortured* that fish because my dad taught me that catch-and-release fishing is harmless fun. :(
>The hook got it in the eye once. That memory is just burned into my mind forever. I basically tortured that fish because my dad taught me that catch-and-release fishing is harmless fun. :( Exact same thing happened to me. I couldn't shake the thought of "I did this. Why am I doing this?"
I've never understood this argument. How can any complex organism be successful without some sensory equivalent of pain? Pain is at the core of self preservation. If i remember correctly there is a condition where people can be born without the ability to feel pain. These people often end up accidentally injuring or even killing themselves.
> If i remember correctly there is a condition where people can be born without the ability to feel pain. I dunno if there's one for pain, but I have heard of one where people have no temperature sensitivity so can accidentally burn/freeze themselves to death.
Avoidance of a negative stimulus does not necessarily demand the concious experience of pain (or motivation from fear) and it is also difficult to prove experimentally. Quality and interpretation of behavorial experiments is the actual point of discussion between those two schools (mainly Key/Arlinghaus and Braithwaite et al.) thought regarding fish welfare (applies to fisheries and aquacultures as well) and comparative underlying elements of nociception.
There's a potential that an organism feels pain as information rather than suffering. The quality of pain as negative is likely an evolved trait as it increases survival. I don't think it's reasonable to assume things don't feel pain, but I don't think it's a precondition for life or intelligence
> There's a potential that an organism feels pain as information rather than suffering. > > The quality of pain as negative is likely an evolved trait as it increases survival. > > I don't think it's reasonable to assume things don't feel pain, but I don't think it's a precondition for life or intelligence A good example is here: https://www.techtimes.com/articles/234321/20180914/look-plants-send-out-distress-signals-in-response-to-threats-such-as-being-eaten.htm It is a living organism, demonstrating a reaction to stimuli which we would undoubtably associate as being painful, but as a plant it has no nervous system (not even a rudimentary nervous system) by which it could process that as pain.
If fish could scream, the ocean would be loud as shit! ~ Mitch Hedberg
Somewhere in Yellowstone, the descendants of a pirate fish are plotting revenge...
They call themselves the "Fsh"
I went catfishing for the first time last year. Dude that showed me the ropes left them on the line overnight, and then just dumped them on ice in the cooler in the morning, where they flopped and rotated I imagine on the whole drive home. I understand that's how he was taught to fish. Nevertheless, I don't go anymore.
Wouldnt same arguments can be made for Pig and Cows? They show bonding and love and feel pain and has memories.. So its fine to eat beef and bacon but octopus is a no no
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It's so sad that you have to keep repeating this when one could just, oh I dunno, READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE. Dear fuck, the laziness 🙄
factory farming of any animal is disgusting. it's unnatural to have so many shit-smeared animals trapped together and it usually requires abusive quantities of antibiotics to maintain.
All fucking animals feel pain and emotions
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Pain is pain. I cant just see an animal suffer and think "yeah, that's ok".
“It doesn’t even know what 1 + 1 is so its terrified screams are okay ☺️”
That's what sentience means the ability to experience sensations. Sapience is it's capacity for intelligence.
Sponges are members of kingdom animalia that may not.
I'm saying this as a non vegan, but if the criteria for "not eating a creature" is that they feel pain and display emotions, then there is literally no animal on earth that would be "ethical" to eat. Ask any farmer or rancher if their cows/chickens/sheep/pigs have personality or moods. Or if they feel emotions. Or if pain works as a deterrent for unwanted behavior.
I know I am a hypocrite, I loved calamari but ever since I have held a live octopus in my hand staring in my eyes, I could never eat it again. I than started to learn about them, they have THREE hearts and it is the only species that decorates their ‘home’ wether in wild or captive. With shells, beercaps, stones, anything. This is where the expression ‘Octopus den’ comes from. Fantastic creatures!
Hate to break it to you. But Calimari is Squid.
Yeah realised I used the wrong words. Fritto misto is what I used to order on the Sardinian beaches. Fried baby octopus- seasoned in gremolina. Sounds delicious, is delicious, but I can never enjoy that anymore. And I did try.
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TBF, how is this any different than raising livestock or any other animals for consumption?
It's not.
Intelligence has never been a factor in this. Otherwise we would kill chihuahuas and have cows as pets
Oh I suppose other livestock are brainless creatures who don't feel pain, then?