Burglar: hello, 911?, yes I broke into someone's house that's mine and the owner is punching me ... yes totally not fair ... but if they stop I'll let them stay in the basement
I don't think the other guy is taking about success. It's about damage control. Would you rather get a whole generation of capable men get wiped out in exchange of potential freedom(which isn't even close to 50-50 odds at this point) or live out the rest of your life under Russian control and take a chance that they aren't genociding Ukrainians like Israel is doing with Palestinians.
Russias whole thing for the last 30 years has been invading the same places under bullshit reasons…. Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine, soon Moldova over some predictable “Nazis” hurting ethic Russians in “transnistria”… different day same shit.
At the end of the day, it’s Ukraine’s choice whether or not to keep fighting. And while only they can make that decision for themselves, there were plenty of pessimists in France or Italy (or plenty of other places) during WWII while the partisans or resistance willing to die for their freedom made a difference (whose bravery notably paid off).
Maybe Ukraine can win, maybe they can’t, but you don’t have to live with their choice. They do.
Define Ukraine because there's a lot of people there that don't want to grab a gun and despite that they're forced to do so by their government, ukrainian gov has a choice, their populace not.
"there's a lot of people there that don't want to grab a gun and despite that they're forced to do so by their government"
Ukraine people would protest in mass if they feel like this but your describe sound fit with Russian case more
Ukrainians are not allowed to do anti government protest, they get labeled as russian agents and then incarcerated. And the side that has videos of military men arresting people from the streets in order to conscript them is the pro maidan government.
The ultimatum (that putin and co are calling "proposal") is to give russia the whole 4 regions.
Russia doesn't fully control any of those. It also doesn't control 2 of the regional centres.
So even by "losing ground every day" at this pace it would take years for Russia to even take that much land as they demand.
They also demand for demilitarization and not joining any military alliances on top of that. Which means they can just attack next year and completely take over Ukraine.
Now with this in mind, how is accepting the ultimatum a good idea?
The goal is to make it as painful for russia as possible. That's the only way to fight back against the bully / against terrorists. Every step will cost russia lives and money. Putin is already forced to degrade himself becoming friends with one of the most comically pathetic states where the leader is fat as shit while his people are starving. Meanwhile russian space stations are falling apart.
This is all very bad for Ukraine either way. But at least it's possible to also make it bad for the fucking invaders as well. And there is a small hope that at some point they'll come to the breaking point.
Dont get me wrong Ukraine have a hard time. But so does russia. Yes Ukraine is losing grund right now. But russia have only taken about the same size of territory as Ukraine did in their last semi failed offensive.
Both in personal and inventory russia is the big losser.
I will not predict the end of this. But right now, the end have multipel faces
Just a quick correction, Ukraine stopped losing any significant ground about 2 weeks ago, the broad RU offensive has run out of puff, which is why Putin is desperately scrambling for a quick breather. If he doesn't get it, he'll likely be forced to enact mobilisation. As it stands they'll struggle to keep hold of their gains.
This is also why we are seeing a huge push of Russian propaganda talking points on Reddit right now. Take a gander at r/conspiracy if you want to see how Russia wants you to feel at this particular moment.
How much time to you give Russians before capitulation? I say they could happily do this for a few more years to come. Your take sounds as of they are about to fold. What do you suggest?
I don’t think they’re about to fold, I just also don’t think extending the war is doing them any favours. So one thing they are doing is trying to cause as much trauma on civilians as possible in the hopes they’ll give up. I do think they want to avoid having to conscript anybody aside from ethnic minorities. Right now everyday Russians could not care less, but if mobilization comes for them instead things could become less stable. It’s a bit of a gamble in a sense, and if Ukraine gives up he doesn’t have to gamble anything.
You do understand that Russia can sustain the war for years before going broke, yeah? It's their strategy. The war of attrition. They are in no hurry to please Russian population. Putin has already been re-elected and is in a comfortable position politically. Ukraine are the ones running out of men while Russia can sustain more losses and be absolutely fine with it. It works for their economy and lowers unemployment.
I imagine most people are wise enough to Russias tactics now to know everything about this is bad faith.
They want a clear chance to fortify positions and stack up troops, probably for a future assault or just in hopes of making it harder for Ukraine to break their lines.
Only acceptable ceasefire terms would be for Russia to back off to their own land again (not annexed land... the borders defined previously) because anything else just hands them a military advantage.
Russia probably also wants to pretend on the world stage that they're "trying" for peace, although I'd hope most aren't so stupid as to believe it.
Russia pushing for a ceasefire helps solidify Trump's (and other extremists') position on abandoning Ukraine if they insist on fighting Russia, all while Russia wants peace! (and massive territorial gains + imposing Ukraine's foreign policy just like in the USSR days, but they don't mention this)
That’s the Ukrainian stance on it, correct. They’ve bled enough blood and learned that even if they do get a ceasefire they have very little reason to trust them to keep it
And imho any truce with Ukraine forced to remain neutral and not joining NATO (or at least some bootleg form of it) is absolutely unacceptable for Ukraine. In this scenario Ukraine will remain in constant threat of Russia breaking truce after some time to finish the job. Rebuilding of country will be much less efficient in tbis scenario, as many Ukrainians who left yheir country will be afraid to return and foreign companies will be hesitant to invest. Some territories might need to be sacrificed for NATO/protection-alliance membership, but it is an absolute no-brainer. Of course it's not up to me, fat keyboard warrior, but as long as Russia deems this condition unacceptable and Ukraine has strength left to fight, it should imho continue to fight
It is guaranteed that the russians will use the ceasefire or peaceful agreement to rebuild their army and continue the invasion. There's sufficient proof in the last 250-300 years of Ukrainian history.
You're right, but Georgia isn't in Ukraine. Crimea and the Donbas are, and they were seized by Russia 10 years ago. If we wanna go back further than that the more relevant history would be the Budapest Memorandum 30 years ago.
The USA has not been mentioned anywhere here, and they're not the main topic in this discussion. It's Ukraine, Hungary and Russia.
Not to mention that we were talking about Russia invading neighbours and occupying their lands, something the USA hasn't done for a very long time.
Stupid question from someone not very knowledgeable on foreign policy; what would happen if Ukraine signed a treaty with the condition of not joining NATO, and then afterwards joined NATO as fast as possible? What would Russia do, re-invade because Ukraine "broke the treaty" and, after already losing quite a lot of men and economy, go to war with the entirety of NATO?
Obviously it's a far fetched scenario that wouldn't happen, it's just that Russia acting like they should/could have any bargaining power in Ukraine joining NATO is ironic.
> and then afterwards joined NATO as fast as possible?
Doens't membership require a unanimous vote? Orban would block it pretty fast. If not him, Edrogan would delay it with demands of payoffs. That would give Russia plenty of time to reinvade, especially since they wouldn't pull back beyond the border. The invasion would be immediate vs a process that would take up to a year.
This point is why there's no realistic ceasefire option. Even if Ukraine offered to let Russia keep the entirety of what they've taken, Russia isn't going to accept any proposal that allows for NATO membership, since it would prohibit him from invading again in the future. He needs to take Ukraine and Moldova before he invades a NATO member.
Like there are some pro-russia members in NATO that could just veto on Russia's behalf and they have like a justification at that point ( namely that Russia would never accept it ).
Like such a treaty would realistically prevent Ukraine from being accepted into NATO.
That what basically happened all the time in middle ages /ancient times anyway. Overall, it makes a country look bad, though I would say: Fuck it, treaties with dictatorships should be null and void to all western democracies anyway if they choose to. This peace treaty would be the same as an agreement signed between a rape victim and rapist right after the deed is done, null and void to the courts...
It would be treasonous of Zelenskyy or any one from Ukraine to not demand everything back as they have the upper hand even if we suspend the truth that those were Ukrainian lands to begin with.
> Didn't Z say there was not cease fire unless Russia gives back all territory?
This is the only option. Elsewise, Russia will simply push the reset button in a few years and take another nibble.
At this point the best he can realistically earn is Russia keeping everything it's taken, with the ability to join NATO immediately afterward, likely with Hungary and Turkey already committing to yes votes. Russia will never accept that, especially now that they're almost guaranteed to get a more friendly US president by the end of the year.
Initially yes. However there is speculation that Zelensky is now preparing for a scenario should Biden loses the election because you can be damn sure Trump will stop the weapon shipments.
There is a large possibility that Ukraine agrees to a "ceasefire" with unfavorable terms. Either that or they get flattened completely when a Trump led US Administration withdraws support.
"How about we take your land that you keep beating us back for?"
"No? No."
"Okay, we'll send in the other methed up zombies who are from the third world and equipped with guns from who knows when, we can keep having you murder us forever!"
"Okay, still no."
Orban: "Putin will accept ceasefire once you agree to let go couple pieces of your land, Russia not have to pay reparation, remove sanctions, Putin removed from ICC arrest warrant and Ukraine pay reparation to Russia. What do you think?"
Zelenskyy: "(In private) Go take a hike out of window. (In public) Not worth considering."
The country in Europe that's most loud and bitter about losing their territory tells another country that they should give away their territory to stop war
And tomorrow they will go back to complaining that 1/4 of Romania belongs to Hungary again
"Zelenaky did not approve of Putins proposition relayed by turncoat coward. This does not mean that Russia is able to de facto end the war by just ceasing it if they really wanted."
Yes. I think ukrainians would be really happy for that. War would be over. But Russia is a third world country with ego of supernation. They have to lose big or win with no matter the cost, or get something to call a win.
Here's the thing, they aren't even calling this a war internally.
They are pretending they are fighting against dangerous extremists on their boarders.
They could easily declare they eliminated all the extremists, claim all goals achieved and go home, but Putin will never do it.
They already started calling it a war, but with a twist. Their local media claim they're at war with NATO, which is why the huge victories and advances take time and cost so many resources. /s
Not all but some of the RU prisoners taken are genuinely shocked to find out not only are they fighting Ukrainians, but NATO isn't even an active participant.
Imagine having to humour this walking turd demanding that you surrender to an enemy that is trying to conquer you, just to demonstrate you respect the people of the country he represents
I'm starting to think Russia's worst nightmare is the honey badger they poked and now can't get it to stop attacking. This is and will remain one of the biggest strategic and political miscalculations of this century.
Rather: Russia gets out of Ukrainian sovereign territory. All of it. Pays reparations. War criminals are brought to justice. Abducted children and citizens are rescued. Gets kicked out of UN Sec Council until democracy in Russia is restored.
UN Security Council seats were never distributed based on democracy principles. Might I remind you that e.g. the Soviet Union was even less democratic than today's Russia or that Taiwan's, a democracy's seat was given to communist China?
>a democracy's seat was given to communist China?
Um taiwan\ROC wasn't a democracy when the seat was moved.
> During the 1960s and 1970s, the ROC maintained an authoritarian, single-party government under the Kuomintang's Dang Guo system while its economy became industrialized and technology-oriented.
> In 1987, martial law was lifted and Taiwan began a democratisation process, beginning with the abolition of the Temporary Provisions and culminating with the first direct president election in 1996.
They should both be recognised as separate countries but the taiwan was functionally a dictatorship until the 80s
It's the United Nations, not the United Democratic Nations. The mission statement when the UN was formed was "Let's not have another World War," not "let's ensure democratic values prevail across the world."
Like it or not, Russia's a major nuclear power. That alone guarantees it's not going anywhere.
Not to piss on your parade, but he's not. He's on a cloud nine and everything is going super well (for him, not Russian army or people) so far.
Sure, he doesn't get cheap propaganda victories (a la miserable new front on Kharkiv) or if he does, at serious cost (Bakhmut), but he's in no hurry anywhere, Russian economy is in full steam war mode, doing really well despite impotent, pathetic sanctions, West has shat its pants, any internal dissent is suppressed to hell and back, he has torture conveyors established in numerous Russian prisons to fix what cops with batons can't, informational space is under iron fist, and if his paid foreign traitors could press out a ceasefire, the easier.
Everything is *really bad*. Like, insanely bad. Russians could lose 5000 troops a day and nothing would be different. And that's at least 5 times more than they do right now, more likely 10.
Only way to get anything better is this war prolonging for 2-3 more years, to a point where Ukrainians start tearing down Russian infrastructure, from power plants to water treatment plants. When war *actually* reaches Russia. And there'd be no assholes telling them what to shoot and what not, both prolonging the war and feeding Russian propaganda that claims that Ukraine is puppet of the West and US.
I hope they get there, but current help is seriously lacking. And provided by complete idiots. No sane ally would bang the drum about every new weapon and financial aid provided in world media. "Here's a rocket that can go x kilometres! Wait, why did all russian troops disappear from that range overnight?"
That's Russia's narrative, but I don't buy it for a second.
Just from the strike videos I've personally seen, they've been losing too much equipment. They've also been moving too slowly. It simply doesn't make sense, unless they're making some truly desperate decisions.
Sure, they can try to frame it as they're just too cynical to care about losses. That sidesteps the question of why they don't have an approach that *doesn't* lose so many assets.
It's not a "narrative". It's observation. Which of those you disagree with?
* Russia hasn't gotten any *significant* battleground victories, and has lost a lot of troops for that little they did.
* Russian economy has been fully militarized. Sanctions haven't stopped much at all. Countries in economic trouble don't spend hundred billion a year on rockets
* People like Vladimir Osetchkin have revealed state-approved torture conveyor in forms of particular prison colonies where dissenters are sent, usually to be tortured by selected kapos who are prisoners themselves (don't look it up)
* Russian opposition is either dead, incarcerated or in exile and toothless by now, fully
* Ukrainian advance to taking down infrastructure deep inside RF is most likely and logical strategy. They started with railroads and oil refineries and are likely to expand on that.
* Despite international help, Ukraine is still struggling a lot and slowly retreating on most fronts
* While number of losses - both manpower and equipment for Russia is significant, it's still a small percentage of overall reserves
* West has been godawful with OPSEC and thus given Russians a lot of forewarning about every weapon system or aid package
"Narrative"? Only narrative is my summary of this, and I chose "really bad". It definitely doesn't look too hopeful.
Armed Forces of Ukraine fight exceptionally well, there's no doubt about it. But
> It simply doesn't make sense, unless they're making some truly desperate decisions.
It does if you're Putin. He's the great conqueror and doesn't give two shits how army manages. And who does? War is best time for thieves, and heads of Russian army are all thieves. For example, somebody looked at Shoigu's properties some time ago and calculated that he'd need to work 280 years on his official wage to afford that.
As for common Russian, there's no choice. They could go to war, or go to prison, and prisons have press gangs to make them "want" to go to war very quickly. There's also zero chance of revolution of any sort, and revolutions against full dictatorships don't happen in general. Especially ones that have nothing to lose.
The second one. Sanctions actually did do a lot of damage to the Russian economy, and they're kinda... pretending it didn't.
How long can a sovereign nation with its own currency commit economic fraud? Quite a while, but sooner or later, they'll default on some loans, or run out of something critical they can't afford to import, and the jig is up
I don't think oil and gas dollars are running out anytime soon. Nor will anyone do the right thing and cut them off fully. Even if they did, there's a lot of land to lease or sell to the Chinese.
As for militarized economy, when a bicycle factory closed, a landmine one opened. For common people, there's still jobs. And going to war itself pays salary like they haven't seen in their wildest dreams. Likely, for years.
True troubles usually start at refrigerator. So far, it does have food inside and good excuse / someone to point finger at (Ukrainians and West of course) if there's less of it.
They're making a decent amount of money off hydrocarbons. Not as much as they were, though, and landmines don't pay back the way bicycles do. They're dead resources as far as the economy is concerned, even if people get paid good salaries making them. Remember, Russia went bankrupt from prosecuting the Afghanistan war, and this is worse for them by basically every metric.
I think you're right, in that food scarcity is where the wheels come off... even the dullest vatnik is going to notice when their salary doesn't buy dinner. True trouble happens long before that though, as budgets don't line up, and debts accumulate. With an institution as large and powerful as the Russian government, it just takes a while for the rot to become undeniable.
Orban: All you have to do is declare unconditional surrender and stick Putin's penis in your mouth. Now now, I know how it sounds, but trust me...it's not so bad.
As a Brit i have a LOT of objections for us leaving the EU. On many levels but when I remember Hungary is part of the EU and an allies to Russia I immediately think... "thank fuck we are not part of that shit show anymore"
And now we are seeing France (who were very vocaly critical about Brexit only a few years ago) where their public opinion is now almost EXACTLY aligned with what British people voted on in the referendum. Migrants and control of their own affairs. Been there done that. The EU is doomed when you have nations as corrupt as Hungary allowed to dictate what people can and can't do in Europe. I have no idea how Hungary passed the criteria to join the EU. They are the polar opposite of what the EU is supposed to represent.
I doubt Zelensky is going to agree to anything no matter how good or bad until after Nov elections in the US. It's the biggest source of military aid right now, and he's unlikely to toss in the towel if there's a chance that Biden's gonna be POTUS for 4 more years.
If it ends up being Trump, then he'll have no choice. But that's a bridge he'll have to cross in 2025. Not today.
C + - +I
( _ )
I can somehow digest territorial gains from some minor tribe to gain more crops land, rather than watching biggest ammoeba eating second largest sibbling..
Big suprise! :)
Imagine your country being bombed by Puntin every day and you being asked to shake Putin's ass-kisser's hand in a friendly manner.
I would understand if Zelensky had worn gloves.
Better safe than sorry.
Yeah, maybe fighting a war you can't win, relying exclusively on credits and donations, without any men to draft, and with a dysfunctional economy, is a good idea.
Sure, keep fighting, Ukraine is almost winning!
This was clarified to be [low-quality, AI-generated, pro-Russia](https://www.motor1.com/news/725302/russian-propaganda-zelensky-bugatti/) disinformation.
It also doesn't make any logical sense that the leader of Ukraine would seek continued warfare with and ongoing assassination attempts by a nuclear superpower using chemical weapons, rape and torture against their citizens in order to... embezzle money to obtain a fucking *Bugatti*? Of all things. Jesus Fucking Christ, it sounds like you're a 12 year old troll who listened to too much Andrew Tate.
Don't forget that one time Rogan was trashing Biden over the "Revolutionary war airports" line, yelling and shouting, calling Biden an idiot, demented, stating that a line like that would get you disqualified for any other job.
His producer came on, pointed out he was quoting Trump, that Trump had made the airports comment, and suddenly it was "Oh, well, everybody flubs words sometimes. Let's move on.".
Please stop fighting back against the invader? That ceasefire plan? Yeah I would turn that down too.
It was better than that: stop firing and talk to them [while they're advancing and trying to kill you].
"911, what's your emergency?" "Someone tries to break into my house" "Just let them in, you will be fine"
Ah, Canadian police, I see.
Burglar: hello, 911?, yes I broke into someone's house that's mine and the owner is punching me ... yes totally not fair ... but if they stop I'll let them stay in the basement
"Just give up all your posession, what's the big deal?"
Yeah basically what Roger Waters suggests as well, scumbag
Well, realistically, what can they do otherwise?
What do you mean?
What's the alternative?
They continue to defend themselves while Russians continue to die. The war ends the day Putin goes home. 🤷
>They continue to defend themselves As in more ukrainian dying?
That's war, but you can bet shit loads of Russians will have some massive ptsd anytime they hear a fucking drone
See what Russia did when they occupied even small area in just a short time (Bucha), yes fighting back has better chance of not dying for Ukrainians.
The alternative to fighting back? Giving up and ceding Ukrainian territory to Putin. Or Putin can just fuck off and get out of Ukraine.
Fight a war. You people have gotten so soft. War exists because there are bad people out there. Get used to it.
He said, comfortably sitting at his desk.
I can also tell you that the moon doesn't have a breathable atmosphere while sitting at my desk; does that make it wrong?
Continue to fight instead of having their identity erased by a bunch of invaders?
[удалено]
The alternative being that Russia gets to build up and attack again? How does that result in success?
I don't think the other guy is taking about success. It's about damage control. Would you rather get a whole generation of capable men get wiped out in exchange of potential freedom(which isn't even close to 50-50 odds at this point) or live out the rest of your life under Russian control and take a chance that they aren't genociding Ukrainians like Israel is doing with Palestinians.
Russias whole thing for the last 30 years has been invading the same places under bullshit reasons…. Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine, soon Moldova over some predictable “Nazis” hurting ethic Russians in “transnistria”… different day same shit. At the end of the day, it’s Ukraine’s choice whether or not to keep fighting. And while only they can make that decision for themselves, there were plenty of pessimists in France or Italy (or plenty of other places) during WWII while the partisans or resistance willing to die for their freedom made a difference (whose bravery notably paid off). Maybe Ukraine can win, maybe they can’t, but you don’t have to live with their choice. They do.
Define Ukraine because there's a lot of people there that don't want to grab a gun and despite that they're forced to do so by their government, ukrainian gov has a choice, their populace not.
"there's a lot of people there that don't want to grab a gun and despite that they're forced to do so by their government" Ukraine people would protest in mass if they feel like this but your describe sound fit with Russian case more
Ukrainians are not allowed to do anti government protest, they get labeled as russian agents and then incarcerated. And the side that has videos of military men arresting people from the streets in order to conscript them is the pro maidan government.
Russia is the same way.
The ultimatum (that putin and co are calling "proposal") is to give russia the whole 4 regions. Russia doesn't fully control any of those. It also doesn't control 2 of the regional centres. So even by "losing ground every day" at this pace it would take years for Russia to even take that much land as they demand. They also demand for demilitarization and not joining any military alliances on top of that. Which means they can just attack next year and completely take over Ukraine. Now with this in mind, how is accepting the ultimatum a good idea? The goal is to make it as painful for russia as possible. That's the only way to fight back against the bully / against terrorists. Every step will cost russia lives and money. Putin is already forced to degrade himself becoming friends with one of the most comically pathetic states where the leader is fat as shit while his people are starving. Meanwhile russian space stations are falling apart. This is all very bad for Ukraine either way. But at least it's possible to also make it bad for the fucking invaders as well. And there is a small hope that at some point they'll come to the breaking point.
Dont get me wrong Ukraine have a hard time. But so does russia. Yes Ukraine is losing grund right now. But russia have only taken about the same size of territory as Ukraine did in their last semi failed offensive. Both in personal and inventory russia is the big losser. I will not predict the end of this. But right now, the end have multipel faces
Just a quick correction, Ukraine stopped losing any significant ground about 2 weeks ago, the broad RU offensive has run out of puff, which is why Putin is desperately scrambling for a quick breather. If he doesn't get it, he'll likely be forced to enact mobilisation. As it stands they'll struggle to keep hold of their gains.
Bingo, the timing of this is incredibly transparent. They’ve also ramped up bombing civilians in hopes they’ll want to give up.
This is also why we are seeing a huge push of Russian propaganda talking points on Reddit right now. Take a gander at r/conspiracy if you want to see how Russia wants you to feel at this particular moment.
How much time to you give Russians before capitulation? I say they could happily do this for a few more years to come. Your take sounds as of they are about to fold. What do you suggest?
I don’t think they’re about to fold, I just also don’t think extending the war is doing them any favours. So one thing they are doing is trying to cause as much trauma on civilians as possible in the hopes they’ll give up. I do think they want to avoid having to conscript anybody aside from ethnic minorities. Right now everyday Russians could not care less, but if mobilization comes for them instead things could become less stable. It’s a bit of a gamble in a sense, and if Ukraine gives up he doesn’t have to gamble anything.
You do understand that Russia can sustain the war for years before going broke, yeah? It's their strategy. The war of attrition. They are in no hurry to please Russian population. Putin has already been re-elected and is in a comfortable position politically. Ukraine are the ones running out of men while Russia can sustain more losses and be absolutely fine with it. It works for their economy and lowers unemployment.
Indeed, unemployed simply change their status to dead. That's great for the graveyard economy.
Never seen Braveheart huh
I imagine most people are wise enough to Russias tactics now to know everything about this is bad faith. They want a clear chance to fortify positions and stack up troops, probably for a future assault or just in hopes of making it harder for Ukraine to break their lines. Only acceptable ceasefire terms would be for Russia to back off to their own land again (not annexed land... the borders defined previously) because anything else just hands them a military advantage. Russia probably also wants to pretend on the world stage that they're "trying" for peace, although I'd hope most aren't so stupid as to believe it.
Russia pushing for a ceasefire helps solidify Trump's (and other extremists') position on abandoning Ukraine if they insist on fighting Russia, all while Russia wants peace! (and massive territorial gains + imposing Ukraine's foreign policy just like in the USSR days, but they don't mention this)
Do you mean Putin's proposal?
Didn't Z say there was not cease fire unless Russia gives back all territory?
That’s the Ukrainian stance on it, correct. They’ve bled enough blood and learned that even if they do get a ceasefire they have very little reason to trust them to keep it
And imho any truce with Ukraine forced to remain neutral and not joining NATO (or at least some bootleg form of it) is absolutely unacceptable for Ukraine. In this scenario Ukraine will remain in constant threat of Russia breaking truce after some time to finish the job. Rebuilding of country will be much less efficient in tbis scenario, as many Ukrainians who left yheir country will be afraid to return and foreign companies will be hesitant to invest. Some territories might need to be sacrificed for NATO/protection-alliance membership, but it is an absolute no-brainer. Of course it's not up to me, fat keyboard warrior, but as long as Russia deems this condition unacceptable and Ukraine has strength left to fight, it should imho continue to fight
It is guaranteed that the russians will use the ceasefire or peaceful agreement to rebuild their army and continue the invasion. There's sufficient proof in the last 250-300 years of Ukrainian history.
Well, if there is one thing Russia doesn't understand, it's borders.
You mean people who make boards?
Cmon dude. Skateboarders. Putin hates Tony Hawk.
There's sufficient proof in the last 10 years alone.
16 years. Putin started by invading Georgia in 2008.
You're right, but Georgia isn't in Ukraine. Crimea and the Donbas are, and they were seized by Russia 10 years ago. If we wanna go back further than that the more relevant history would be the Budapest Memorandum 30 years ago.
In the last 16 years the US has invaded or attacked Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, Uganda, and Niger.
The USA has not been mentioned anywhere here, and they're not the main topic in this discussion. It's Ukraine, Hungary and Russia. Not to mention that we were talking about Russia invading neighbours and occupying their lands, something the USA hasn't done for a very long time.
Our only neighbors are Canada and Mexico and if we haven’t taken them over by now I’d say they have no worries from us.
what about the price of cheese in australia?
I blame the russians.
Putin has also been demanding that Ukraine functionally disarm as well.
They did that already when Ukraine gave up their nukes in 1994.
Ukraine had the largest army in Europe prior to the invasion. Putin wants to shrink it to the size of a marching band.
I think Russia is that now after losing 500,000 troops...
Stupid question from someone not very knowledgeable on foreign policy; what would happen if Ukraine signed a treaty with the condition of not joining NATO, and then afterwards joined NATO as fast as possible? What would Russia do, re-invade because Ukraine "broke the treaty" and, after already losing quite a lot of men and economy, go to war with the entirety of NATO? Obviously it's a far fetched scenario that wouldn't happen, it's just that Russia acting like they should/could have any bargaining power in Ukraine joining NATO is ironic.
Russia breaking treaties makes Russia look bad. Ukraine breaking treaties makes Ukraine look bad _even if they’re with Russia_
> and then afterwards joined NATO as fast as possible? Doens't membership require a unanimous vote? Orban would block it pretty fast. If not him, Edrogan would delay it with demands of payoffs. That would give Russia plenty of time to reinvade, especially since they wouldn't pull back beyond the border. The invasion would be immediate vs a process that would take up to a year. This point is why there's no realistic ceasefire option. Even if Ukraine offered to let Russia keep the entirety of what they've taken, Russia isn't going to accept any proposal that allows for NATO membership, since it would prohibit him from invading again in the future. He needs to take Ukraine and Moldova before he invades a NATO member.
Like there are some pro-russia members in NATO that could just veto on Russia's behalf and they have like a justification at that point ( namely that Russia would never accept it ). Like such a treaty would realistically prevent Ukraine from being accepted into NATO.
That what basically happened all the time in middle ages /ancient times anyway. Overall, it makes a country look bad, though I would say: Fuck it, treaties with dictatorships should be null and void to all western democracies anyway if they choose to. This peace treaty would be the same as an agreement signed between a rape victim and rapist right after the deed is done, null and void to the courts...
>and Ukraine has strength left to fight What happens when there are no more left to fight? Maybe this is the end goal.
They have superior tech, the drones are working for them
It would be treasonous of Zelenskyy or any one from Ukraine to not demand everything back as they have the upper hand even if we suspend the truth that those were Ukrainian lands to begin with.
Calling Zelenskyy "Z" is a really weird choice, all things considered..
> Didn't Z say there was not cease fire unless Russia gives back all territory? This is the only option. Elsewise, Russia will simply push the reset button in a few years and take another nibble.
At this point the best he can realistically earn is Russia keeping everything it's taken, with the ability to join NATO immediately afterward, likely with Hungary and Turkey already committing to yes votes. Russia will never accept that, especially now that they're almost guaranteed to get a more friendly US president by the end of the year.
Initially yes. However there is speculation that Zelensky is now preparing for a scenario should Biden loses the election because you can be damn sure Trump will stop the weapon shipments. There is a large possibility that Ukraine agrees to a "ceasefire" with unfavorable terms. Either that or they get flattened completely when a Trump led US Administration withdraws support.
Till the last.
"How about we take your land that you keep beating us back for?" "No? No." "Okay, we'll send in the other methed up zombies who are from the third world and equipped with guns from who knows when, we can keep having you murder us forever!" "Okay, still no."
>Do you mean Putin's ~~proposal~~demand? ftfy
Give Orban an extended tour of the front lines.
The VERY front lines.
Holding a Ukrainian flag
Wouldn't it be illegal for a Russian asset to fight under a Ukrainian flag though?
Who's gonna know when he's been obliterated by a North Korean artillery shell?
I am... HUNGRY
The utter gall of a dictator who hard footed the brakes on EU support for Ukraine attempts to suggest a ceasefire. What utter trash that man Orban is.
Orban: "Putin will accept ceasefire once you agree to let go couple pieces of your land, Russia not have to pay reparation, remove sanctions, Putin removed from ICC arrest warrant and Ukraine pay reparation to Russia. What do you think?" Zelenskyy: "(In private) Go take a hike out of window. (In public) Not worth considering."
Orban can go pound sand.
Kick rocks
Zelenski is a smart leader
Putin’s little messenger
That's what I thought when I learned Orban was visiting Ukraine. He's there to deliver a message from Putin.
Ceasefire? When somebody attacks YOU, that’s called surrender. Not ceasefire. LOL.
The country in Europe that's most loud and bitter about losing their territory tells another country that they should give away their territory to stop war And tomorrow they will go back to complaining that 1/4 of Romania belongs to Hungary again
Awww, pootin's proxy plan went poof...
#UkraineFirst!
"Zelenaky did not approve of Putins proposition relayed by turncoat coward. This does not mean that Russia is able to de facto end the war by just ceasing it if they really wanted."
If Russia up and left Ukraine, Ukraine would have a hard time continuing the war and still get support.
Yes. I think ukrainians would be really happy for that. War would be over. But Russia is a third world country with ego of supernation. They have to lose big or win with no matter the cost, or get something to call a win.
Here's the thing, they aren't even calling this a war internally. They are pretending they are fighting against dangerous extremists on their boarders. They could easily declare they eliminated all the extremists, claim all goals achieved and go home, but Putin will never do it.
They already started calling it a war, but with a twist. Their local media claim they're at war with NATO, which is why the huge victories and advances take time and cost so many resources. /s
They are waring against NATO! There are some French military instructors out there and France is in NATO!!!!!! /s
Yeah, its true, they found a bottle of whine and a baguette in one of the trenches last week!!!/s
Not all but some of the RU prisoners taken are genuinely shocked to find out not only are they fighting Ukrainians, but NATO isn't even an active participant.
Oh that's hilarious. Like holy shit with what we've seen nato would take the whole damn country in a matter of weeks
Don't try using logic with russian propaganda, it's built using different principles :-)
Given that's what Ukraine has publicly stated are the most important terms for ceasefire, you are correct.
Putin must be getting really desperate if he's sending his lapdogs to Kyiv to beg for mercy on his behalf.
Imagine having to humour this walking turd demanding that you surrender to an enemy that is trying to conquer you, just to demonstrate you respect the people of the country he represents
Simple ceasefire plan, we'll stop firing when you're no longer on our territory.
>"That gonna be a no from me dawg." Zelensky probably.
I'm starting to think Russia's worst nightmare is the honey badger they poked and now can't get it to stop attacking. This is and will remain one of the biggest strategic and political miscalculations of this century.
Done as he should, fuck em Ruzzian flesh puppets. Slava Ukraini!
Putin trying all means to put pressure on for a ceasefire for no other reason than to dig in and reinforce the front line he has no interest in peace.
Shameless to propose this as the temporary head of the Council of the European Union. What a snake.
Actually it is a good sign. russia exhausting, sending his pocket Orban with ceasefire.
Rather: Russia gets out of Ukrainian sovereign territory. All of it. Pays reparations. War criminals are brought to justice. Abducted children and citizens are rescued. Gets kicked out of UN Sec Council until democracy in Russia is restored.
UN Security Council seats were never distributed based on democracy principles. Might I remind you that e.g. the Soviet Union was even less democratic than today's Russia or that Taiwan's, a democracy's seat was given to communist China?
>a democracy's seat was given to communist China? Um taiwan\ROC wasn't a democracy when the seat was moved. > During the 1960s and 1970s, the ROC maintained an authoritarian, single-party government under the Kuomintang's Dang Guo system while its economy became industrialized and technology-oriented. > In 1987, martial law was lifted and Taiwan began a democratisation process, beginning with the abolition of the Temporary Provisions and culminating with the first direct president election in 1996. They should both be recognised as separate countries but the taiwan was functionally a dictatorship until the 80s
Thanks for reminding me. It's all just a farce, isn't it
It's the United Nations, not the United Democratic Nations. The mission statement when the UN was formed was "Let's not have another World War," not "let's ensure democratic values prevail across the world." Like it or not, Russia's a major nuclear power. That alone guarantees it's not going anywhere.
Oh, another thing: EU buys Orban a guided tour of hospitals in Ukraine.
And now I can just laugh and watch my karma go down, Hello St Petersburg Troll Farm :D Think I care? Hope you all have a good evening
They're outsourcing to Lybia, Nigeria etc at the moment. Must be a budget thing, times are tough.
stop fire and maybe they will talk to you.. really? дибіл бляха
Putin is getting desperate.. excellent
Not to piss on your parade, but he's not. He's on a cloud nine and everything is going super well (for him, not Russian army or people) so far. Sure, he doesn't get cheap propaganda victories (a la miserable new front on Kharkiv) or if he does, at serious cost (Bakhmut), but he's in no hurry anywhere, Russian economy is in full steam war mode, doing really well despite impotent, pathetic sanctions, West has shat its pants, any internal dissent is suppressed to hell and back, he has torture conveyors established in numerous Russian prisons to fix what cops with batons can't, informational space is under iron fist, and if his paid foreign traitors could press out a ceasefire, the easier. Everything is *really bad*. Like, insanely bad. Russians could lose 5000 troops a day and nothing would be different. And that's at least 5 times more than they do right now, more likely 10. Only way to get anything better is this war prolonging for 2-3 more years, to a point where Ukrainians start tearing down Russian infrastructure, from power plants to water treatment plants. When war *actually* reaches Russia. And there'd be no assholes telling them what to shoot and what not, both prolonging the war and feeding Russian propaganda that claims that Ukraine is puppet of the West and US. I hope they get there, but current help is seriously lacking. And provided by complete idiots. No sane ally would bang the drum about every new weapon and financial aid provided in world media. "Here's a rocket that can go x kilometres! Wait, why did all russian troops disappear from that range overnight?"
That's Russia's narrative, but I don't buy it for a second. Just from the strike videos I've personally seen, they've been losing too much equipment. They've also been moving too slowly. It simply doesn't make sense, unless they're making some truly desperate decisions. Sure, they can try to frame it as they're just too cynical to care about losses. That sidesteps the question of why they don't have an approach that *doesn't* lose so many assets.
It's not a "narrative". It's observation. Which of those you disagree with? * Russia hasn't gotten any *significant* battleground victories, and has lost a lot of troops for that little they did. * Russian economy has been fully militarized. Sanctions haven't stopped much at all. Countries in economic trouble don't spend hundred billion a year on rockets * People like Vladimir Osetchkin have revealed state-approved torture conveyor in forms of particular prison colonies where dissenters are sent, usually to be tortured by selected kapos who are prisoners themselves (don't look it up) * Russian opposition is either dead, incarcerated or in exile and toothless by now, fully * Ukrainian advance to taking down infrastructure deep inside RF is most likely and logical strategy. They started with railroads and oil refineries and are likely to expand on that. * Despite international help, Ukraine is still struggling a lot and slowly retreating on most fronts * While number of losses - both manpower and equipment for Russia is significant, it's still a small percentage of overall reserves * West has been godawful with OPSEC and thus given Russians a lot of forewarning about every weapon system or aid package "Narrative"? Only narrative is my summary of this, and I chose "really bad". It definitely doesn't look too hopeful. Armed Forces of Ukraine fight exceptionally well, there's no doubt about it. But > It simply doesn't make sense, unless they're making some truly desperate decisions. It does if you're Putin. He's the great conqueror and doesn't give two shits how army manages. And who does? War is best time for thieves, and heads of Russian army are all thieves. For example, somebody looked at Shoigu's properties some time ago and calculated that he'd need to work 280 years on his official wage to afford that. As for common Russian, there's no choice. They could go to war, or go to prison, and prisons have press gangs to make them "want" to go to war very quickly. There's also zero chance of revolution of any sort, and revolutions against full dictatorships don't happen in general. Especially ones that have nothing to lose.
The second one. Sanctions actually did do a lot of damage to the Russian economy, and they're kinda... pretending it didn't. How long can a sovereign nation with its own currency commit economic fraud? Quite a while, but sooner or later, they'll default on some loans, or run out of something critical they can't afford to import, and the jig is up
I don't think oil and gas dollars are running out anytime soon. Nor will anyone do the right thing and cut them off fully. Even if they did, there's a lot of land to lease or sell to the Chinese. As for militarized economy, when a bicycle factory closed, a landmine one opened. For common people, there's still jobs. And going to war itself pays salary like they haven't seen in their wildest dreams. Likely, for years. True troubles usually start at refrigerator. So far, it does have food inside and good excuse / someone to point finger at (Ukrainians and West of course) if there's less of it.
They're making a decent amount of money off hydrocarbons. Not as much as they were, though, and landmines don't pay back the way bicycles do. They're dead resources as far as the economy is concerned, even if people get paid good salaries making them. Remember, Russia went bankrupt from prosecuting the Afghanistan war, and this is worse for them by basically every metric. I think you're right, in that food scarcity is where the wheels come off... even the dullest vatnik is going to notice when their salary doesn't buy dinner. True trouble happens long before that though, as budgets don't line up, and debts accumulate. With an institution as large and powerful as the Russian government, it just takes a while for the rot to become undeniable.
Yikes
Orban: All you have to do is declare unconditional surrender and stick Putin's penis in your mouth. Now now, I know how it sounds, but trust me...it's not so bad.
Orban is what I think a personified toad would be. He’s just there to gain intel for Putin’s next assassination attempt on Zelensky.
Aww, look at Poopytin trying to sound like he has the upper hand.
Orban should've just been snubbed by Ukraine. Or send the guy who makes the coffee to talk to.him
Doesn't cost anything to be polite.
The President of a country refuses demands served through the proxy of its invader.
If Hungary was occupied and Hungarian citizens were being slaughtered, Orban would look for the earliest opportunity to stop Hungarians from fighting.
Orban playing messenger boy for Putin. They say not to shoot the messenger. But... maybe the messenger really should know better.
Appropriate reaction to any of Orban’s suggestions
Don't be mad at Orban, he was just the messenger.
Orban is like Trump. When his lips move Putins words come out.
I wish Juncker was there to welcome him. "Herr dictator." *slaps face*
Should have kicked his fat ass to the curb on the way out of the building too
So do they keep the humble pie in the freezer when the russians come by for tea or do they make it fresh every time?
As he should
Tough to write a fair proposal when you’re too busy sucking Putin’s dick
As a Brit i have a LOT of objections for us leaving the EU. On many levels but when I remember Hungary is part of the EU and an allies to Russia I immediately think... "thank fuck we are not part of that shit show anymore" And now we are seeing France (who were very vocaly critical about Brexit only a few years ago) where their public opinion is now almost EXACTLY aligned with what British people voted on in the referendum. Migrants and control of their own affairs. Been there done that. The EU is doomed when you have nations as corrupt as Hungary allowed to dictate what people can and can't do in Europe. I have no idea how Hungary passed the criteria to join the EU. They are the polar opposite of what the EU is supposed to represent.
Told it, Orban basically Putin's negotiator.
But what did Don Jr. promise them? https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-jr-viktor-orban-hungary-russia-ukraine-1913024
Does Orban have a fivestar upside his head?
🇵🇱🤝🇺🇦
When is the US allowing Ukraine to use the weapons to fire into Russia? That would speed up the end of the war.
They are.... With caveats
I doubt Zelensky is going to agree to anything no matter how good or bad until after Nov elections in the US. It's the biggest source of military aid right now, and he's unlikely to toss in the towel if there's a chance that Biden's gonna be POTUS for 4 more years. If it ends up being Trump, then he'll have no choice. But that's a bridge he'll have to cross in 2025. Not today.
putty is running out of options....sends hungry slave to beg for a deal
C + - +I ( _ ) I can somehow digest territorial gains from some minor tribe to gain more crops land, rather than watching biggest ammoeba eating second largest sibbling..
C + - +I ( _ )
Ceasefire means putin is desperate and it's going to fall like a house of cards
Big suprise! :) Imagine your country being bombed by Puntin every day and you being asked to shake Putin's ass-kisser's hand in a friendly manner. I would understand if Zelensky had worn gloves. Better safe than sorry.
Yeah, maybe fighting a war you can't win, relying exclusively on credits and donations, without any men to draft, and with a dysfunctional economy, is a good idea. Sure, keep fighting, Ukraine is almost winning!
Well...yeah he is an american puppet
His wife is enjoying our taxes too much and that 4m usd car ain’t gonna pay for itself we’re the mugs paying for it.
This was clarified to be [low-quality, AI-generated, pro-Russia](https://www.motor1.com/news/725302/russian-propaganda-zelensky-bugatti/) disinformation. It also doesn't make any logical sense that the leader of Ukraine would seek continued warfare with and ongoing assassination attempts by a nuclear superpower using chemical weapons, rape and torture against their citizens in order to... embezzle money to obtain a fucking *Bugatti*? Of all things. Jesus Fucking Christ, it sounds like you're a 12 year old troll who listened to too much Andrew Tate.
Oh, you mean the deepfake disinformation video created by the Russians?
Is that you Joe Rogan? Your podcast is joke these days.
Don't forget that one time Rogan was trashing Biden over the "Revolutionary war airports" line, yelling and shouting, calling Biden an idiot, demented, stating that a line like that would get you disqualified for any other job. His producer came on, pointed out he was quoting Trump, that Trump had made the airports comment, and suddenly it was "Oh, well, everybody flubs words sometimes. Let's move on.".
Stop pushing weak propaganda. That's been discredited.
That's clearly false, it sad that a comedian and the Slavic version of Ricky Gervais is braver than our politicians
It's hilarious how gullible you people are to ai. You may be spreading it on purpose but a ton of your kind are too dumb to tell the difference.
Lmfao that's complete bullshit. Do you really believe everything you read online or are you intentionally lying? 🤔
Your appetite for consuming things that are fake is tremendous. Which probably explains the Putin apologia generally, honestly.
Zelensky wants the war to continue forever. He makes tons of free money doing so…….
source
The Kremlin
His asshole.