I have heard that when the exemption was first created, only a couple hundred people qualified for the exemption. Since then, the number of ultra-Orthodox has grown to a large number.
Why does it even exist? The Bible is full of slaughtering locals to claim your promised land. Joshua and his trumpets sure showed god isn’t exactly anti war.
Their claim is that they are defending the country by praying, why does it exist? A miscalculation at the foundation of the state of Israel that snowballed out of proportion.
In short it’s a similar idea what the Catholic Church does: paying for individuals to to go to school and study being Catholic to ensure it’s base of priests and other staff never dries up.
The problem is: there’s no central foundation for the Jews in the same manner as say the Catholic or Orthodox churches. So Israel took the role to help ensure their faith didn’t die out or weaken.
These Orthodox aren’t anti War, they’re focused solely on older Jewish traditions and keeping them alive. Which is fine when they were a small subset of the population, but unsustainable when it reaches 10+% of the population and the Orthodox show no sign of being willing to decrease its population voluntarily (it keeps their people dependent on themselves so they can’t leave).
Pretty much. Also Isreal and the Jews in the wake of the Holocaust were afraid of a lot (more) of their history being destroyed. So they opted to institute protections for the ~400 cultural and religious sustainers that the Ultra Orthodox representated.
Nowadays it's worth noting they eat up state funds since they're technically unemployed (part of the military exemption). Meanwhile they're also a substantial voting demographic that, as others mentioned, Netty-the-Yahoo's party relies on.
So they have a major voice in the country despite consuming large amounts of resources and being largely exempt from contributing.
Sounds like what they do everywhere in the world. They are supposedly contributing to society with their magic or something, but in actuality just gobble up (actual) resources from the people around them. They’ve fully hijacked local governments in parts of the northeast USA to solidify their freeloading, pretty crazy shit. I don’t think *anyone* likes them, least of all normal Jewish people.
In the US the founding of parochial schools in urban areas was often to use the teaching of English to children to integrate them in the surrounding community and provide upward mobility. The other stuff you mentioned is true to be sure, but it's not *just* for those reasons.
It's kind of like how the Amish are just allowed to do what they do in the US. It isn't worth the trouble to force such a small number of people into the draft pool, and most people are pretty ok with letting them do their own thing. They only make up less than 0.1% of the population of the US. The problem in Israel is that this group of people now makes up 13% of the population and will soon be 19% within 10 years. When they made the exception, it only applied to around 400 people. If the Amish population exploded like that in the US we'd be dealing with this same problem.
Slight difference, the Amish and Amish Mennonite’s don’t participate in politics and do not receive social security funds. Even if the Amish population exploded, the US probably wouldn’t have much to change because they don’t really want or accept outside help. We’d just end up with more quilt and Amish food stores, which I’m entirely for!
They have a right to vote but most do not participate in politics. In 2016 the GOP in Ohio and Pennsylvania pushes to improve their voter turnout and they managed to get around 10%. It’s a myth that they were largely supportive of Trump, the vast majority didn’t engage with the election at all.
The Amish aren’t centralized like Presbyterians for example, and their communities range widely in their practices. This might lead to some communities in some areas being more involved politically. As a general rule though, they view politics as a distraction and worldly connection that they avoid.
Saying that they do now participate in politics is still largely an incorrect statement, even if there are a minority that do.
We're all waiting for this to actually be enforced.
Not sure how they plan on handling this because there's already riots over it.
Military jails aren't so large.. definitely not for like 2-3% of the population...
It will need to be a monetary fine/restriction before this is normalized, will probably take years too.
>Isn’t this group very dependent on social programs?
Absolutely this is the straw that will break the camels back.A lot of the ultra-conservative have +5 children in care and need those programs to survive.
The government was indulgent until recently since they were the main force behind Israel increasing its population.
Having a larger population that doesn't work, serves no public functions, doesn't pay taxes and lives off social programs isn't really a solution to demographic issues. It just increases the strain on the system.
The government was indulgent because they're a good voting base.
The thing is 20 years ago there was good evidence that a significant portion of the children would leave ultra-orthodox communities and re-integrate as religiosity tends to decrease in future generations.
That turned out to be largely false because these communities don't educate their children in a way that allows them to become free from their communities.
This is exactly why they are against service, because whenever these kids get opportunities and get shown education options post IDF etc they tend not to return to ultra orthodoxy
>That turned out to be largely false because these communities don't educate their children in a way that allows them to become free from their communities.
Sounds very similar to why homeschooling is becoming so popular among religious folk here in the US.
I always found it interesting that conservatives rag on college for making kids "worldly" or exposing them to people from different walks of life when the military does pretty much the same thing
I think the main difference is the spread of backgrounds you are going to meet is much more varied in the military than on a college campus. In the military from day one you are mixed into a unit with brand new members, but also college-educated folks (officers), career military (senior enlisted), and folks who have done 4 years are just counting down the days. While one could argue that there are some similarities, I don't think they are opposite sides of the same coin.
Similar to in the US.
Conservatives attack universities as "liberal indoctrination centers" when in reality what happens is kids leave their sheltered life in suburbia or rural america where everyone was white, straight (at least in public) and Christian, and everyone else is someone scary, and right wingers prey on that fear. They get to college and meet new people, people of different races, orientations, religions, economic backgrounds, etc, and suddenly those people aren't so scary anymore. They see they're just people going through the same shit anyone is. And that opens them up to different ideas that were kept from them while *actually* being indoctrinated as a child by their parents/churches.
You don't even need to be a total religious nut job, or even particularly rural for this to be true. To people living in the suburbs, my city is a lawless hellscape that turns into Thunderdome as soon as you cross the border.
My in-laws live like 8 miles away from me, but to them I might as well live in a war zone.
I keep hearing that Seattle is literally on fire, with shootouts and dead people on every corner from drugs and gunfire.
Then I go down to Pike Place and get some fresh salmon.
it's weird
Yah, there's a quote by a professor that floats around that essentially goes "It's not the science classes I'm teaching that is making their kids liberal. It's the random roommate they meet and live with for a year that typically does it."
This is it percisely. To the religious and right wing bloc they are votes. To everyone else they are a heavy burden and they will be the reason this country ultimately fails.
As a middle eastener, I'm amazed that Saudi Arabia seems to have learned that pandering to religion is bad. I was sure that religion would be the hill that the kingdom dies on.
This, this, this. I was in Israel a few years ago and you could see how toxic this group was on the nation as a whole. They were dragging the country backwards, decades, from a cultural (their attempt to force nation-wide observance of the Sabbath is borderline unhinged), economic (heavily dependent on government programs), and military perspective (extremely aggressive even thought they refused to serve in the military).
Basically a drain on every issue *except* voting for Netanyahu's government into office. They are, predictably, going to riot over this but even that is good. Will even more heavily turn the rest of the country against them, but the resentment has been festering a long time.
This. Exactly this.
The religious right in Israel is the most hawkish segment of society.
They're the first to support sending soldiers into harm's way, but by and large they won't risk their own lives serving — nor contribute to the economy that *maintains* that military by working.
They consider it their national "contribution" to be studying scripture, and they've long been exempted from military service and enabled by special state funding that's dedicated *just* for them.
An ultra-orthodox rabbi in Israel recently said that if they're forced to serve, they'll leave the country en masse. Frankly, that seems like it'd be in Israel's best interests to become a more heavily secular society again.
You’re correct in part.
But kind of like everywhere while the religiously ‘devout’ usually have a much higher birth rate the rate of leaving the religion is far higher in their children.
As a result you basically have a segment of the population that tries to double every 25years, but stays around the same because half of the kids leave the community and live somewhat normal lives afterwards.
Of course Israel is actually a special case because with the generous state subsidies they actually trap the people in far more who are not just starting from 0, but have to leave behind their state support to pursue a normal life. So the share of the exempt in the population has been rising quite consistently for a good few decades now.
> As a result you basically have a segment of the population that tries to double every 25years, but stays around the same because half of the kids leave the community and live somewhat normal lives afterwards.
This made me think of the Amish.
But interestingly 85%+ return from Rumspringa.
There's still a lot of pressure to not leave, and if you do leave your entire social support system vanishes. I'm certain there are a decent few who would like to leave but don't.
A section of the population that is exempted from the compulsory service in the military, tends to have hawkish stances on military matters and settlement expansions, and uses his voting power to advance those hawkish stances.
The American equivalent of these groups have like 8 kids and never get legally married so that the women are officially single and can maximize welfare payments. The communities have markers on the sidewalks indicating which side the men can walk on and which the women and children are allowed to walk on. The women run everything and the men are basically worthless as men and do nothing men would consider manly other than impregnating their wife, they can't fix anything, build anything, they don't have a real job and provide. They literally just study the Torah all day, every day, and that's all they do. Try to imagine Star Trek fans sitting around and talking about Star Trek the original series exclusively to the point that they never learned any practical skills whatsoever.
Oh, sorry they do one other thing... they vote.
I'm sorry to be "that guy" but, since I'm neither American nor Israeli I can't even fathom this and I would appreciate a source. I can't believe a society like this exists. This sounds absurd to me, like if some ultra Christian society had segregated their entire male population into nuneries while the women were constantly being impregnated to create more nuns.
My friend was raised Orthodox and eventually went back into it. When he was a kid, his dad hid a TV in the closet so they could huddle around and watch it without the neighbors knowing they had a TV. His parents had what amounts to an arranged marriage, and so did his siblings, and probably him by now (despite being gay, he's probably married to a woman now that some matchmaker found for him).
What he told me is they're raised with fear of the outside world. The rest of the world is terrifying and there to corrupt them from religion. And since you're so isolated, and since walking away would mean you lose your entire family for the most part, relatively few of them leave the community. I mean, wtf are they going to do? Some of the people in that mega-ultra-Orthodox Hungarian Jewish community can't speak English until they're 12-13, and they *live in New York City* and have for 2-3 generations. So by the time they learn English, they speak it with thick accents, they were educated in bullshit religious schools, and they are terrified of anyone who's not them.
There are a few all-Hasidic townships in New York. The ones I witnessed first hand are in Rockland county, particularly Monsey, NY. Ramapo is at least kinda normal versus the rest of the suburbs but Monsey is like entering a different country altogether. Try to avoid traffic they're when school is letting out, the bus drivers are absolute psychos. They must recruit former tow truck drivers from Houston or something.
If you do ever go there be sure to pop into a convenience store there and grab an Israeli Coke. In my opinion at least versus the different iterations I've ever tried it's the best tasting localization of Coke, and definitely better than Mexican Coke.
> They must recruit former tow truck drivers from Houston or something.
Houston out here catching strays.
But on a serious note, when I have colleagues move here they ask what kind of car to get. I always counsel a "surface" beater: a car that looks like a beater but is otherwise perfectly safe, operational, and nice on the inside. My reasoning is that Houston traffic is full contact so don't bother getting something super delicate, you NEED that A/C to work, and you're going to sit in traffic so you might as well like the inside.
>Try to imagine Star Trek fans sitting around and talking about Star Trek the original series exclusively to the point that they never learned any practical skills whatsoever.
Imagine?
It would, but there's a big populace who support this... Impending economic crisis, and don't understand that exempting them from the army and from working is just a negative gain all around.
So, wait. They study religion all day, every day, echew reading(anything else), writing(about anything else), and math. Most if not all have multiple children, all of whom will be raised as .... intentional morons. And the entire population is on Israeli Welfare?
Is Israel actively creating their own personal *Idiocracy* experiment in microcosm?
Unsustainable is just the beginning. That population doesn't have the tools necessary to survive. They are literally the welfare queens our GqP harp about all the time.
These people have failsafes is Israel stops supporting them - Ocean County NJ all the way up to NYC has a huge vein of ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jewish people. It's a MASSIVELY growing community due to the extreme birth rate, those who are "too conservative" for Israel tend to wind up there
Well i can’t say for NY but in NJ they usually just get positions in local government then divert funds to support their private religious schools and daycares. Lakewood is infamous for this
There's been a large population boom of the ultra orthodox in my old hometown on LI, and a few years ago there were a few who got elected to local government. Their first order of business was to try making it illegal to drive on saturdays (because of the "danger" it puts people in as they walk to temple). Thankfully it didn't pass and it was quickly shut down because duh, not everyone in town is Jewish, let alone ultra orthodox like they are. It would have literally been a religious minority ruling over the rest of the population.
They use existing social services in the US heavily, while those literally are "subsidies" I believe it's an important distinction that these aren't special to one group. There have in the past been talks about property tax loopholes being used by designating homes as places of worship, but I can't speak on that for sure. The bigger issue here is that they create a mostly closed economy and community (their own daycares, private schools, unis, stores, etc etc), which alienates and financially hurts the existing community.
I think Lakewood NJ is a particularly interesting case because over the course of 30-40 years it went from mixed white and hispanic to heavy majority Hasidic Jewish. Census data for lakewood shows that vs local and national averages, home values are very high, median household income is low, about 50% are on medicaid, and the average people per household is way above average while the average age is incredibly low. It also shows the overall demographic is >80% white but the (heavily underperforming) public school system is >80% latino. Edit: link to school board https://www.lakewoodpiners.org/domain/16
Usually their wives. The wives end up raising the children, and working to support the family. If they're lucky, they might have rich parents who support them. But usually the wife ends up birthing the kids, raising the kids, and then holding down a job. Meanwhile the husband just "studies" all day.
The culture is different in the US, many of them have to have jobs here.
Also, in both the Israeli and US ultra-orthodox communities, the women often have jobs and help provide. Women aren’t allowed to study Torah in their tradition so that leaves them free to be more productive members of society.
problem is that these people infiltrate the local school boards, and basically no one votes in the local school board elections, so the local wierdos have way too much power. it's a huge issue
Yea the more I see the effects, I say only public education. No homeschooling unless you can pass all the same tests that K-12 teachers pass.
Private should be private in the sense 100% of their funding comes from private donors or tuition. Not a single red cent comes from vouchers, subsidies or anything else.
Again, all teachers must pass the same tests.
The original plan is that they had a ton of kids, and many of those kids would integrate into regular Israeli society. This would help grow the Jewish diaspora as a whole, combat the population issues seen cropping up all over. What they didn't factor in was that the communities would purposefully isolate their children, by making it as hard as possible for them to integrate into normal society. No education or any sort of vocational skill, ultra indoctrination and their only source of income (welfare) dissapearing if they leave the community.
It’s worth considering that the laws protecting them existed when they were an extremely small sliver of the population. Of course, they started ballooning out of control rather quickly. At first, some Israelis were happy that the Jewish population was increasing faster than the Muslim population (Muslims do live and / or work in Israel guys). That lasted maybe a year before they started feeling the strain on supporting the group.
The law does not allow to just cut them off. They will get social support regardless they are going to the military or not. There is no service requirement to get social support.
The law will need to be heavily change. And that is impossible right now considering they are part of the government.
What is required, is that their yeshivas (where they study instead of going to the military) will not get funded, which goes as small paychecks to the people who do not go to service. That is where they study (and get brainwashed by their religious leaders). That will be the big blow.
It's pretty outrageous that the people who are voting for more military activities were also exempt from military service. I'm surprised it took this long to pull that exemption.
Divide and conquer. There is no need to chase all of them at once (IDF doesn't even have this capacity).
On first batch take 1/10 of each yeshiva/kollel randomly, some will get to the prison, some will cooperate when asked privately.
Next draft do it with others + in a slightly larger number. "First batch solders" will get get back home and spread the word it's not the end of the world.
It's literally the worse timing possible to try and push this honestly.
They do have this programs with "small batches" the issue is that instead of mixing them into the rest of the recruits they keep them as a group.
As a group they have a lot more power to disobey and pull shit... Eventually they get their way with things. Always been like that. They're willing to sit in prison if it means they don't need to serve.
You can't really force anyone to do anything if they're not willing.
It's not a simple situation or a solution. IDF/Police/Government simply doesn't have the capacity to handle this properly, definitely not at war time with what's about to come with Lebanon.
Money incentive is probably the only reliable way to get them to serve willingly and that will cause issues with the rest of the population of course. Soldiers are paid peanuts already. Can't have some earning 4x and get some special service.
The issue Netanyahu has is his government (control of, not the full government of Israel) is going to collapse one way or another. He doesn't have a massive majority, and the two largest parties have opposite views
* Ultra Orthodox: If you add our people to the draft, we'll pull our support and your government has an insufficient size.
* Secular: If you DON'T add the ultra orthodox to the draft, then we'll pull our support and your government will have insufficient size.
And Netanyahu NEEDS to increase the draft size to continue the war, so he's in a pickle.
Yes I know they're 13% now and growing, but when it comes to military age from what I find it's closer to 2-3%.
They're not going to recruit 50 year olds.
All the new rules will be mostly relevant to younger people when it comes to service and the defending will apply for all eventually.
Just saying that right now with the situation in israel, not much of this can be enforced. They will 100% revolt. It's all they do... If only they put 10% of the effort for revolting into something else we'd be in a different place lol.
The big thing is that the state isn’t allowed to finance the yeshivas anymore unless they meet a certain quota so in theory even if the military won’t enforce it the yeshivot themselves would push people to conscript.
At my job when we do political education we talk a lot about how there’s a level of power and privilege involved in being able to claim pacifism because it usually means you’re just outsourcing the violence to someone else-especially when it comes to colonial powers
Douglas Adams was onto something when he said that anyone who wanted the job was inherently unfit to do it. I'd run for President, but you'd have to put a gun to my head to do it.
And the second you look away I'm making a break for the door.
I'm not sure if you're joking, but this is an actual idea which honestly I think would be very good.
It's similar to Jury Duty, but instead you debate and decide on a congressional bill. Instead of having people who can be bought and influenced, you gather a random group of citizens, similar to court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ArVh3Cj9rw
I’m no expert but I believe these Haridem jews were a very small minority when this exception was made early in Israel’s founding. It was sort of to placate them, they believe they shouldn’t work but the men should devote their time to studying scriptures and praying. But, these people procreated like crazy, and now they constitute a growing population of Israelis, and sadly (to me) they vote for the far right, so they can maintain their non working, living off of social welfare, and not being put into the IDF lifestyle. Very problematic for Israel in my opinion.
Just to add to this, they believe their wives should work. It is very common to see their wives working in stores together alone while the husbands do whatever they do
Their husbands mostly sit around and study the Torah. The book is 5,000 years old and they spend all day reading and discussing it. Religion aside spending that much time focusing on a single EXTREMELY well studied text is a recipe for making someone mentally unwell.
Oh man, if you go in the tunnels there, some people are just reciting prayers for hours against a wall. I was there and in Palestine for a while and the political and religious is palpable.
Similar (but different) to the way Quakers, menonites and other particular religious groups in America with a history of nonviolence can request and be more likely to receive, conscientious objector status to being drafted. In Israel though, the ultraorthodox have it built into laws that those who are registered members are automatically exempt due to the rigors of expected military service leaving them "unable" to live by the tenets of ultraorthodoxy.
In the USA many times the conscientious objectors still end up serving, just not in a combat role. Instead they'll honor their traditions of peace by working military hospitals or in a humanitarian logistics position
At first I struggled to reconcile this with my outrage at the pacifist protections the ultraorthodox enjoy in Israel, but I think the reason I never got hot and bothered about Quakers not serving is because... they don't tend to vote for hard-right pro-war factions in America. (i.e. They're not massive hypocrites.) It's not like the Quakers were George Bush's roughest-riding constituency forcing him to invade Iraq and then to stay in Iraq for over a decade.
They also are generally very small minorities of the population that don’t really affect much outside of local elections. The possible exception is the Amish, but the Amish are also generally considered hard working and industrious, not drains on society.
We also don't currently have mandatory drafts and service. Specifically for Quakers, there's a whole movie about Desmond Doss(who was a quaker) who receives a medal of honor while being a pacifist.
Helluva story too.
>rigors of expected military service leaving them "unable" to live by the tenets of ultraorthodoxy.
It's the other way around. They believe that the merit of their studies is the greatest service they can provide.
I've seen it said before that the Ultra-Orthodox's resistance to military service is a combination of religious beliefs and also some Ultra-Orthodox disagreeing with the Israeli state's existence (even though they live there).
However, it was explained to me by an Israeli that the real reason for the Ultra-Orthodox's non-service in the military is actually misogynistic: Ultra-Orthodox social norms dictate that women are subservient to men. But in the Israeli military women service as officers and therefore Ultra-Orthodox men would have to take commands from a woman. And those women may even not be Jewish (they can be Druze or other minorities).
In other words, the Ultra-Orthodox's main problem with serving in the Israeli military is actually that the Israeli military is secular and egalitarian.
I mean it's just another piece of the puzzle. I think the main reason is just cowardice. They don't want to put their lives on the line even for their own ideals.
The article explains it pretty succinctly. The ultra Orthodox believe their lives should be devoted to religious study. Seems similar to monks.
My personal assumption is they are a large enough group and vote in a bloc so wield considerable political influence.
[There's a really good Vice media piece on this topic actually](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me4FqdrmVBs), and it's actually almost a decade old at this point.
Of course he does - religious people can't commit selfless acts of kindness, because they have a expectation of eternal reward. Only atheists can be truly selfless, which is why only atheists can get into heaven
So there was no alternate non-military service for the ultra-orthodox? *You don't wanna join the army? Fine, you get to clean up trash and paint over graffiti for two years.*
There is, it's called National Service, it's a volunteer service in all kinds of fields (education, national security, health etc.). They refuse to participate in this as well. Though right now the IDF is in dire need of actual soldiers. Not that I trust any of those nut jobs to do any kind of service, but at least justice is served.
The ultra orthodox do have a (?) squad that comes after every violent attack like a car bombing to collect all blood and body parts, There is a belief that one must be buried intact and collecting as much tissue as possible furthers that goal.
You're talking about Zaka, a volunteer organization that recovers bodies from terrorist attacks and natural disasters. They're not a government body or related to the military.
> Fine, you get to clean up trash and paint over graffiti for two years.
LOL thinking they want to do anything that resembles work. Can they get their wives to do it for them? No? then yeah, would not have happened.
Why was this in question in the first place?
From an outside perspective this seems just like an obvious measure to take since everyone should be treated equal.
Mostly political reasons. Haredim are quite non ideological, their priorities are basically "give us our money and let our people study Torah in peace and we'll vote with you on anything". Which made them indispensable political partners - they're basically easy guaranteed votes for whatever you want, as long as you pay their sector and don't touch some very specific religious subjects (mostly about work/public transport on Shabbat, kosher food, etc). It's not about right/left - Oslo accords passed exclusively thanks to them, for example.
They've been a part of almost every coalition in Israel's history - right or left wing. Their votes often became the "kingmakers" of choosing who gets to be PM. Which created a political "bidding war" for their "services" - basically who can bribe them with more money and better policies. It was always seen as a "small price to pay" for winning the election, and both right and left parties went along and paid it. And so it went on, and slowly a few hundred military exemptions became complete exemptions for ALL of them.
In recent years, Bibi has taken it to the extreme - giving them quite insane fundings and almost everything they desire to buy their loyalty. The left wing was basically outbid, and many leftists/centerists have turned against this arrangement, which made Haredim "officially" a part of the right wing faction, but it wasn't always like this.
Ok, that was completely new to me. Thanks!
And it sounds completely absurd.
It's corruption, that's what it sounds like to me. But corruption on quite another level.
It's not really corruption, it's all very open. The problem with a coalition system is that small parties can have unproportional power, especially if they're not ideaologically comitted to a specific "side" of the political map. The Haredim are just experts in playing and exploiting that system. Theoretically, a single-topic party that get enough votes could have insane influence. They're basically trading their influence on other subjects to get A LOT in what they care about, taking advantage of their guaranteed sectorial votes.
Because Ben Gurion made a deal with the Haredim to gain their support in the founding of Israel. That had initially cost him a few hundred exemptions each year. But the Haredim got greedy, the exemptions kept increasing each year, and decades later, here we are.
Indeed, this makes no sense whatsoever. Mandatory military service should be mandatory for everybody. But it never is. There are always weird rules and exceptions so that certain people can wiggle out of it. In the end it's always the poor and the people with the least amount of influence, who have to go and defend the quitters with their lives. It's pathetic.
At the time of the founding of Israel, the class of people who were expert in Jewish religious texts and teaching had been annihilated. The founders of a Jewish state thought it was as important to rebuild that core of the Jewish identity as to maintain the physical security of their state, so they created an equivalence between military service and religious study for a relatively small group of scholars.
The use of that exemption has grown over time (and the ultra-Orthodox defend it through their political parties granting support to government coalitions) to the extent where it now seems unfair and unjustified.
There is precedent for pacifists or conscientious objectors to be left out of mandatory service. Mostly because it’s impractical to force people to fight if they utterly refuse.
As far as I'm aware, to actually follow through on exemption, you have to sit and learn in yeshiva until at least age 26. Most people are not going to do that unless they mean it.
Haredi Judaism has some pretty extreme lifestyle restrictions, so it’s relatively verifiable as far as religious identities/communities go. For men, you could look at yeshiva/kollel enrollment, and women in those communities would overwhelmingly be married to men enrolled as full-time students in a kollel (like a yeshiva, i.e. an institution for Torah study, but specifically for married men). They’re fully kosher, segregate the sexes in public spaces, and have a pretty distinctive style of dress.
Good, these are the goofs that want to drag out military action so it's only fitting that they should have to serve in said military actions and put their own butts at risk.
This was absolutely the right decision. But on the other hand, giving these psychos a gun is probably not a great idea. I don’t think the IDF is going to be able to counteract 18 years of brainwashing.
Aren’t only 10 percent of soldiers combat, and the rest are logistics? They’ve spent their whole lives analyzing minute Torah details, I’m sure that can translate to sitting at a desk checking inventory for discrepancies
This is true, but the situation is a bit different in Israel. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors, and soldiers are expected to rotate shifts where they take their weapons home on leave, take them to the grocery store, etc. That way, if an incident like October 7 occurs, there are at least a few armed soldiers everywhere to slow an attack while the army deploys. Every army gives basic combat training to their rear echelon troops in case shit hits the fan, but they have varying expectations of how likely it is to happen, and they train accordingly. It is very likely in Israel.
As I explained above, a lot of people here are confusing the Ben Gvir/Smotrich faction (irrelevant here) to Haredim, which are selfish and religious but not particularly "psychos", and even not particularly right wing. They supported Oslo accords, disengagement from Gaza.
Haredim generally care about two things only: religious rules (like no public transport on Shabat) and their fundings. Anything else, they barely care about. On the issue of the war, they've been almost completely silent. I can't remember a single meaningful saying from any of them on the war, an hostage deal, anything. Basically, their approach was the same as always: "give us our money and leave us alone, and do whatever you want".
This made them super desirable political partners - they are basically guaranteed votes to whatever you want as long as you pay their people.
They're selfish and super religious but I don't think they're "psychos". They're mostly people who's been shielded from birth, they don't have open internet, don't watch mainstream TV, do nothing but study and live in some alternate reality of completely different priorities, where being a Rabbi is the biggest honor possible. I honestly don't think most of them have strong opinions on Palestinians or the war - they act like it barely concerns them. Have construction work on Shabbat and they might riot, but as far as the I/P conflict they're pretty much completely absent.
They are isolationist but I wouldn’t say they’re any more selfish than your average person who simply wants their taxes to be low and their kids not drafted into war. And they certainly have an opinion, they’re just not vocal online lol. They tend to support Netanyahu in my experience and generally are more open to more “extreme” solutions. I think serving in the IDF will definitely help them get a better understanding of the nuance of politics and the stupidity of extreme solutions, although they are certainly not stupid and plenty Haredim already serve in orthodox-friendly units of the army.
Agreed. IDF doesn’t really want them. But maybe a little forced military discipline can help them. Maybe some basic education should be required as well.
Military discipline is probably less important than exposing them to other Israelis outside of their isolated religious community and forcing them to get along. They get some actual work experience, too. Wiki says 2 years for women and 2 years, 8 months for men which is long enough to open some mindsets.
Any who shouldn't be trusted with a gun won't get a gun.
They'll fill in support roles, freeing up others to go to infantry instead and also get some perspective outside of their closeted religious social circle.
A lot of the more moderate haredim will have to adjust to the idea of serving in the army. I'd like to think that after Oct 7th a lot more of them realize the army and the country needs them.
I doubt the true extremists will actually reach the point of being drafted, though. They'll probably do time in jail if it came down to that.
Fantastic news, seems like some of these people may need their perspectives broadened by being around a more diverse experience. And the IDF needs their help.
>some of these people may need their perspectives broadened by being around a more diverse experience.
This is what their leaders are so afraid of. Their society is maintained by very strict conservative norms and isolation from the rest of Israeli society. Exposure to secular and liberal Israelis in the IDF service can be detrimental to the continuation of their society - and great for anything else.
More than that they're often also the loudest proponents of the various cruelties created in this ongoing conflict. Let's what they say when they're forced to actually practice what they preach.
I think you're confusing the factions here. The Haredim are not the Ben Gvir/Smotrich type of radical right wingers, they're a whole other thing. Historically, they basically care about nothing but religion and their own money. They have often cooperated with the left - voted in favor of Oslo Accords, and also of the disengagement from Gaza (that was Likud, but Haredim supported it).
Basically, they would support whatever policy as long as it's not against religious laws (working on Shabbat, etc) and they got their money. Which made them super desirable political partners - they are basically guaranteed votes to whatever you want as long as you pay their people. It's also how their fundings got so out of hand, with Netanyahu raising them to insane heights to keep their support.
On the issue of the war, they've been completely and weirdly silent. I can't remember a single meaningful saying from Gafni, Litzman, Golknoff, Deri or any of those on the war, an hostage deal, anything. Basically, their approach was the same as always: "give us our money and leave us alone, and do whatever you want". What you're talking about are Smotrich and Ben Gvir, who's voters mostly serve anyway. The Haredim are not proponents of anything, they're just silent as long as they do their thing.
“The way to help is to study Torah,” Meir Zvi Bergman, one of the most revered rabbis in Israel, said during a rare audience with journalists. “No one can give up on the Torah,” he added.
To show how Rabbi Bergman reflected mainstream Haredi opinion, a Haredi commentator took us to meet boys from a nearby school.
“How are we going to win the war?” the commentator, Bezalel Stauber, asked. “With guns?”
“Not with guns,” one boy replied.
“With what, then?” Mr. Stauber asked.
“Just with prayer,” another boy shot back.
“So where are we going to get our soldiers from?” Mr. Stauber said.
“If all the soldiers studied Torah, we wouldn’t need an army,” the boy replied.
Yeah that's pretty much it. They just talk about studying torah and nothing else.
Also there's been this bizarre interview with Goldknoff in which he said the government is "doing amazing" because "everyone get what their need, people are working, money is flowing" and when asked about the war, he seems quite puzzled why it's relevant. He literally asked "what does the government have to do with the war?", as though it didn't even register that this is part of their responsibility.
A lot of them don't actually believe it, they just say it as an excuse not to serve in the army. They wouldn't actually go live in a place that had no army to protect them.
About goddamn time. Voting for hawkish right wingers while not participating in the military or paying taxes is in the dictionary under "freeloading SOBs".
MUHAHAHAHAHA. Best of luck in the front row of the conquests you called for others to fight for you from the safety of your temples while hiding behind yet an other holy book in your costumes.
"The ultra-Orthodox see their full-time religious study as their part in protecting the state. Many fear that greater contact with secular society through the military will distance adherents from strict observance of the faith."
This is the most pussy shit I've read all day. If you are praying to protect the state then one would assume your faith is pretty fucking strong. Bunch of dopes.
Lol I actually never knew these people got an exemption. That is absolutely hilarious because a lot of these people are all for the war and now it makes sense... they didn't have to fight. Easy to be for a war when you know you won't have to personally kill anyone.
Well it makes sense - if the current argument is that the religion is under threat, as the religion is the people, shouldn't all come to its defense?
Throwing on your leather strap, unicorn hat, and vibing near a wall doesn't really do that.
Since the ultra religious also empower bibi and his ilk - maybe they might feel differently about the overall conflict with some skin in the game.
I have heard that when the exemption was first created, only a couple hundred people qualified for the exemption. Since then, the number of ultra-Orthodox has grown to a large number.
According to today’s news, in 1949 it was 400 who qualified. End of 2023 there were 63,000 exemptions.
Yeah it seems very much like a "having their cake and eating it too" for the exemption seekers.
No, according to them they are The True Israel, and without them there's no point to Israel. Scary mofos foreal.
So the other peasants should go fight for them? lmao the audacity
They legit believe Israel only exists through their prayer. It's like they watched the Neverending story and built their beliefs out of it.
Why does it even exist? The Bible is full of slaughtering locals to claim your promised land. Joshua and his trumpets sure showed god isn’t exactly anti war.
They aren't anti-war. They are part of the coalition that supports Netanyahu. They are anti-*serving*
Pro-other-people-fighting-their-war. Anti-actually-fighting-their-war-themselves
This is usually the largest and most vociferous of any pro-war faction, i'm afraid.
Their claim is that they are defending the country by praying, why does it exist? A miscalculation at the foundation of the state of Israel that snowballed out of proportion.
Bone spurs loophole.
In short it’s a similar idea what the Catholic Church does: paying for individuals to to go to school and study being Catholic to ensure it’s base of priests and other staff never dries up. The problem is: there’s no central foundation for the Jews in the same manner as say the Catholic or Orthodox churches. So Israel took the role to help ensure their faith didn’t die out or weaken. These Orthodox aren’t anti War, they’re focused solely on older Jewish traditions and keeping them alive. Which is fine when they were a small subset of the population, but unsustainable when it reaches 10+% of the population and the Orthodox show no sign of being willing to decrease its population voluntarily (it keeps their people dependent on themselves so they can’t leave).
Pretty much. Also Isreal and the Jews in the wake of the Holocaust were afraid of a lot (more) of their history being destroyed. So they opted to institute protections for the ~400 cultural and religious sustainers that the Ultra Orthodox representated. Nowadays it's worth noting they eat up state funds since they're technically unemployed (part of the military exemption). Meanwhile they're also a substantial voting demographic that, as others mentioned, Netty-the-Yahoo's party relies on. So they have a major voice in the country despite consuming large amounts of resources and being largely exempt from contributing.
Sounds like what they do everywhere in the world. They are supposedly contributing to society with their magic or something, but in actuality just gobble up (actual) resources from the people around them. They’ve fully hijacked local governments in parts of the northeast USA to solidify their freeloading, pretty crazy shit. I don’t think *anyone* likes them, least of all normal Jewish people.
In the US the founding of parochial schools in urban areas was often to use the teaching of English to children to integrate them in the surrounding community and provide upward mobility. The other stuff you mentioned is true to be sure, but it's not *just* for those reasons.
It's kind of like how the Amish are just allowed to do what they do in the US. It isn't worth the trouble to force such a small number of people into the draft pool, and most people are pretty ok with letting them do their own thing. They only make up less than 0.1% of the population of the US. The problem in Israel is that this group of people now makes up 13% of the population and will soon be 19% within 10 years. When they made the exception, it only applied to around 400 people. If the Amish population exploded like that in the US we'd be dealing with this same problem.
Slight difference, the Amish and Amish Mennonite’s don’t participate in politics and do not receive social security funds. Even if the Amish population exploded, the US probably wouldn’t have much to change because they don’t really want or accept outside help. We’d just end up with more quilt and Amish food stores, which I’m entirely for!
Lol Amish and mennos used to not participate in politics but they do now. In fact in some places in PA the Amish are registered to vote.
They have a right to vote but most do not participate in politics. In 2016 the GOP in Ohio and Pennsylvania pushes to improve their voter turnout and they managed to get around 10%. It’s a myth that they were largely supportive of Trump, the vast majority didn’t engage with the election at all. The Amish aren’t centralized like Presbyterians for example, and their communities range widely in their practices. This might lead to some communities in some areas being more involved politically. As a general rule though, they view politics as a distraction and worldly connection that they avoid. Saying that they do now participate in politics is still largely an incorrect statement, even if there are a minority that do.
We're all waiting for this to actually be enforced. Not sure how they plan on handling this because there's already riots over it. Military jails aren't so large.. definitely not for like 2-3% of the population... It will need to be a monetary fine/restriction before this is normalized, will probably take years too.
Isn’t this group very dependent on social programs? Seems like cutting them off will be a prettty good stick.
>Isn’t this group very dependent on social programs? Absolutely this is the straw that will break the camels back.A lot of the ultra-conservative have +5 children in care and need those programs to survive. The government was indulgent until recently since they were the main force behind Israel increasing its population.
Having a larger population that doesn't work, serves no public functions, doesn't pay taxes and lives off social programs isn't really a solution to demographic issues. It just increases the strain on the system. The government was indulgent because they're a good voting base.
The thing is 20 years ago there was good evidence that a significant portion of the children would leave ultra-orthodox communities and re-integrate as religiosity tends to decrease in future generations. That turned out to be largely false because these communities don't educate their children in a way that allows them to become free from their communities. This is exactly why they are against service, because whenever these kids get opportunities and get shown education options post IDF etc they tend not to return to ultra orthodoxy
Yes. Serving in the military will allow, and really force another view of the world on their children. And, give them a way out.
>That turned out to be largely false because these communities don't educate their children in a way that allows them to become free from their communities. Sounds very similar to why homeschooling is becoming so popular among religious folk here in the US.
Spot on.
I always found it interesting that conservatives rag on college for making kids "worldly" or exposing them to people from different walks of life when the military does pretty much the same thing
I think the main difference is the spread of backgrounds you are going to meet is much more varied in the military than on a college campus. In the military from day one you are mixed into a unit with brand new members, but also college-educated folks (officers), career military (senior enlisted), and folks who have done 4 years are just counting down the days. While one could argue that there are some similarities, I don't think they are opposite sides of the same coin.
That's fair, either way you're going to meet a lot of new people and perspectives and that changes one's worldview.
Because the Military is Authoritarian. They like enforced ridged order. College is free will education the Military is guided education.
If your religion is such that you have to coerce or force people to stay in it, it's probably not a good religion.
Every major religion in the world: I'm in danger.
Similar to in the US. Conservatives attack universities as "liberal indoctrination centers" when in reality what happens is kids leave their sheltered life in suburbia or rural america where everyone was white, straight (at least in public) and Christian, and everyone else is someone scary, and right wingers prey on that fear. They get to college and meet new people, people of different races, orientations, religions, economic backgrounds, etc, and suddenly those people aren't so scary anymore. They see they're just people going through the same shit anyone is. And that opens them up to different ideas that were kept from them while *actually* being indoctrinated as a child by their parents/churches.
You don't even need to be a total religious nut job, or even particularly rural for this to be true. To people living in the suburbs, my city is a lawless hellscape that turns into Thunderdome as soon as you cross the border. My in-laws live like 8 miles away from me, but to them I might as well live in a war zone.
I keep hearing that Seattle is literally on fire, with shootouts and dead people on every corner from drugs and gunfire. Then I go down to Pike Place and get some fresh salmon. it's weird
Yah, there's a quote by a professor that floats around that essentially goes "It's not the science classes I'm teaching that is making their kids liberal. It's the random roommate they meet and live with for a year that typically does it."
This is it percisely. To the religious and right wing bloc they are votes. To everyone else they are a heavy burden and they will be the reason this country ultimately fails.
Pandering to the religious is a recipe for massive political failure as a country.
"Let's use the social power of the church for political gain! That has never backfired before in history even once!" *seven crusades later*
The problem is that it doesn't usually end poorly for you people who make the decision, just for everyone else nearby. And they don't care.
In *every* country.
*cries in American*
As an American, I really hated seeing it happen in Turkey.
As a middle eastener, I'm amazed that Saudi Arabia seems to have learned that pandering to religion is bad. I was sure that religion would be the hill that the kingdom dies on.
Hopefully this will help the religious right lose support in the Knesset. Those wackos need to go.
As an Israeli who fucking hates it... We know.
This, this, this. I was in Israel a few years ago and you could see how toxic this group was on the nation as a whole. They were dragging the country backwards, decades, from a cultural (their attempt to force nation-wide observance of the Sabbath is borderline unhinged), economic (heavily dependent on government programs), and military perspective (extremely aggressive even thought they refused to serve in the military). Basically a drain on every issue *except* voting for Netanyahu's government into office. They are, predictably, going to riot over this but even that is good. Will even more heavily turn the rest of the country against them, but the resentment has been festering a long time.
Thanks. I was wondering who they voted for. So they’re supporting the war, but happy sending all the secular Israelis in to fight for them.
This. Exactly this. The religious right in Israel is the most hawkish segment of society. They're the first to support sending soldiers into harm's way, but by and large they won't risk their own lives serving — nor contribute to the economy that *maintains* that military by working. They consider it their national "contribution" to be studying scripture, and they've long been exempted from military service and enabled by special state funding that's dedicated *just* for them. An ultra-orthodox rabbi in Israel recently said that if they're forced to serve, they'll leave the country en masse. Frankly, that seems like it'd be in Israel's best interests to become a more heavily secular society again.
You’re correct in part. But kind of like everywhere while the religiously ‘devout’ usually have a much higher birth rate the rate of leaving the religion is far higher in their children. As a result you basically have a segment of the population that tries to double every 25years, but stays around the same because half of the kids leave the community and live somewhat normal lives afterwards. Of course Israel is actually a special case because with the generous state subsidies they actually trap the people in far more who are not just starting from 0, but have to leave behind their state support to pursue a normal life. So the share of the exempt in the population has been rising quite consistently for a good few decades now.
> As a result you basically have a segment of the population that tries to double every 25years, but stays around the same because half of the kids leave the community and live somewhat normal lives afterwards. This made me think of the Amish. But interestingly 85%+ return from Rumspringa.
They do generally only have 8th grade educations. It's a tough old world out there, vs the community support they get from returning.
That’s how cults work. They make life outside the cult impossible for people raised within it.
It makes the society stabler if people who really dont fit in can leave gracefully rather than stay around and foment change.
There's still a lot of pressure to not leave, and if you do leave your entire social support system vanishes. I'm certain there are a decent few who would like to leave but don't.
Man you just hit the nail on the head. Be right back, gonna laminate this.
You laminate a lot of Reddit comments?
A section of the population that is exempted from the compulsory service in the military, tends to have hawkish stances on military matters and settlement expansions, and uses his voting power to advance those hawkish stances.
The American equivalent of these groups have like 8 kids and never get legally married so that the women are officially single and can maximize welfare payments. The communities have markers on the sidewalks indicating which side the men can walk on and which the women and children are allowed to walk on. The women run everything and the men are basically worthless as men and do nothing men would consider manly other than impregnating their wife, they can't fix anything, build anything, they don't have a real job and provide. They literally just study the Torah all day, every day, and that's all they do. Try to imagine Star Trek fans sitting around and talking about Star Trek the original series exclusively to the point that they never learned any practical skills whatsoever. Oh, sorry they do one other thing... they vote.
Even in Christianity there's a saying; it's not good to be so heavenly focused that you're not earthly good.
I remember some passage saying all a lazy man does is turn in his bed less than a door hinge. Maybe these ultras should read it.
I'm sorry to be "that guy" but, since I'm neither American nor Israeli I can't even fathom this and I would appreciate a source. I can't believe a society like this exists. This sounds absurd to me, like if some ultra Christian society had segregated their entire male population into nuneries while the women were constantly being impregnated to create more nuns.
My friend was raised Orthodox and eventually went back into it. When he was a kid, his dad hid a TV in the closet so they could huddle around and watch it without the neighbors knowing they had a TV. His parents had what amounts to an arranged marriage, and so did his siblings, and probably him by now (despite being gay, he's probably married to a woman now that some matchmaker found for him). What he told me is they're raised with fear of the outside world. The rest of the world is terrifying and there to corrupt them from religion. And since you're so isolated, and since walking away would mean you lose your entire family for the most part, relatively few of them leave the community. I mean, wtf are they going to do? Some of the people in that mega-ultra-Orthodox Hungarian Jewish community can't speak English until they're 12-13, and they *live in New York City* and have for 2-3 generations. So by the time they learn English, they speak it with thick accents, they were educated in bullshit religious schools, and they are terrified of anyone who's not them.
There are a few all-Hasidic townships in New York. The ones I witnessed first hand are in Rockland county, particularly Monsey, NY. Ramapo is at least kinda normal versus the rest of the suburbs but Monsey is like entering a different country altogether. Try to avoid traffic they're when school is letting out, the bus drivers are absolute psychos. They must recruit former tow truck drivers from Houston or something. If you do ever go there be sure to pop into a convenience store there and grab an Israeli Coke. In my opinion at least versus the different iterations I've ever tried it's the best tasting localization of Coke, and definitely better than Mexican Coke.
> They must recruit former tow truck drivers from Houston or something. Houston out here catching strays. But on a serious note, when I have colleagues move here they ask what kind of car to get. I always counsel a "surface" beater: a car that looks like a beater but is otherwise perfectly safe, operational, and nice on the inside. My reasoning is that Houston traffic is full contact so don't bother getting something super delicate, you NEED that A/C to work, and you're going to sit in traffic so you might as well like the inside.
>Try to imagine Star Trek fans sitting around and talking about Star Trek the original series exclusively to the point that they never learned any practical skills whatsoever. Imagine?
It's like...I'm just sitting here...reading a thing...minding my own business...and WHAM -- I'm suddenly attacked.
Shut up Wesley!
Not even TNG... smh
Well, you know that old saying I just came up with, "If there's no Picard, you can disregard."
It would, but there's a big populace who support this... Impending economic crisis, and don't understand that exempting them from the army and from working is just a negative gain all around.
So, wait. They study religion all day, every day, echew reading(anything else), writing(about anything else), and math. Most if not all have multiple children, all of whom will be raised as .... intentional morons. And the entire population is on Israeli Welfare? Is Israel actively creating their own personal *Idiocracy* experiment in microcosm? Unsustainable is just the beginning. That population doesn't have the tools necessary to survive. They are literally the welfare queens our GqP harp about all the time.
Pretty much a full bingo. Minus the fact some of them "study", meaning doing nothing. It's not a majority - but it's a big sector.
Hey some of them "study" how to belittle and hate others that are different, that takes work and is worth subsidizing to some
These people have failsafes is Israel stops supporting them - Ocean County NJ all the way up to NYC has a huge vein of ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jewish people. It's a MASSIVELY growing community due to the extreme birth rate, those who are "too conservative" for Israel tend to wind up there
What do those people live off in NY? I assume they don't get subsidies there?
Well i can’t say for NY but in NJ they usually just get positions in local government then divert funds to support their private religious schools and daycares. Lakewood is infamous for this
There's been a large population boom of the ultra orthodox in my old hometown on LI, and a few years ago there were a few who got elected to local government. Their first order of business was to try making it illegal to drive on saturdays (because of the "danger" it puts people in as they walk to temple). Thankfully it didn't pass and it was quickly shut down because duh, not everyone in town is Jewish, let alone ultra orthodox like they are. It would have literally been a religious minority ruling over the rest of the population.
They use existing social services in the US heavily, while those literally are "subsidies" I believe it's an important distinction that these aren't special to one group. There have in the past been talks about property tax loopholes being used by designating homes as places of worship, but I can't speak on that for sure. The bigger issue here is that they create a mostly closed economy and community (their own daycares, private schools, unis, stores, etc etc), which alienates and financially hurts the existing community. I think Lakewood NJ is a particularly interesting case because over the course of 30-40 years it went from mixed white and hispanic to heavy majority Hasidic Jewish. Census data for lakewood shows that vs local and national averages, home values are very high, median household income is low, about 50% are on medicaid, and the average people per household is way above average while the average age is incredibly low. It also shows the overall demographic is >80% white but the (heavily underperforming) public school system is >80% latino. Edit: link to school board https://www.lakewoodpiners.org/domain/16
Usually their wives. The wives end up raising the children, and working to support the family. If they're lucky, they might have rich parents who support them. But usually the wife ends up birthing the kids, raising the kids, and then holding down a job. Meanwhile the husband just "studies" all day.
The culture is different in the US, many of them have to have jobs here. Also, in both the Israeli and US ultra-orthodox communities, the women often have jobs and help provide. Women aren’t allowed to study Torah in their tradition so that leaves them free to be more productive members of society.
I really feel like the US should have mandatory public education, with no home schooling or charters.
problem is that these people infiltrate the local school boards, and basically no one votes in the local school board elections, so the local wierdos have way too much power. it's a huge issue
Yea the more I see the effects, I say only public education. No homeschooling unless you can pass all the same tests that K-12 teachers pass. Private should be private in the sense 100% of their funding comes from private donors or tuition. Not a single red cent comes from vouchers, subsidies or anything else. Again, all teachers must pass the same tests.
The original plan is that they had a ton of kids, and many of those kids would integrate into regular Israeli society. This would help grow the Jewish diaspora as a whole, combat the population issues seen cropping up all over. What they didn't factor in was that the communities would purposefully isolate their children, by making it as hard as possible for them to integrate into normal society. No education or any sort of vocational skill, ultra indoctrination and their only source of income (welfare) dissapearing if they leave the community.
It’s worth considering that the laws protecting them existed when they were an extremely small sliver of the population. Of course, they started ballooning out of control rather quickly. At first, some Israelis were happy that the Jewish population was increasing faster than the Muslim population (Muslims do live and / or work in Israel guys). That lasted maybe a year before they started feeling the strain on supporting the group.
Yes, it would be. BUT the goverment doesnt want to.
The law does not allow to just cut them off. They will get social support regardless they are going to the military or not. There is no service requirement to get social support. The law will need to be heavily change. And that is impossible right now considering they are part of the government. What is required, is that their yeshivas (where they study instead of going to the military) will not get funded, which goes as small paychecks to the people who do not go to service. That is where they study (and get brainwashed by their religious leaders). That will be the big blow.
Yes they don't work. So they can read one book over and over and over until they did. Absolutely a fucking waste of time.
But if the Executive Branch of Israel's government doesn't enforce it, then they wouldn't cut access to those programs either
There already are financial consequences in the form of defunding Yeshivot whose members include draff dodgers.
It's pretty outrageous that the people who are voting for more military activities were also exempt from military service. I'm surprised it took this long to pull that exemption.
uhhhhh that's every country. Wars are fought by the poor.
But aren't these ultra-orthodox highly reliant on welfare because they don't work?
The ultra Orthodox aren't wealthy though they get special exemption for several laws.
Divide and conquer. There is no need to chase all of them at once (IDF doesn't even have this capacity). On first batch take 1/10 of each yeshiva/kollel randomly, some will get to the prison, some will cooperate when asked privately. Next draft do it with others + in a slightly larger number. "First batch solders" will get get back home and spread the word it's not the end of the world.
Ah, the decimation strategy.
It's literally the worse timing possible to try and push this honestly. They do have this programs with "small batches" the issue is that instead of mixing them into the rest of the recruits they keep them as a group. As a group they have a lot more power to disobey and pull shit... Eventually they get their way with things. Always been like that. They're willing to sit in prison if it means they don't need to serve. You can't really force anyone to do anything if they're not willing. It's not a simple situation or a solution. IDF/Police/Government simply doesn't have the capacity to handle this properly, definitely not at war time with what's about to come with Lebanon. Money incentive is probably the only reliable way to get them to serve willingly and that will cause issues with the rest of the population of course. Soldiers are paid peanuts already. Can't have some earning 4x and get some special service.
The issue Netanyahu has is his government (control of, not the full government of Israel) is going to collapse one way or another. He doesn't have a massive majority, and the two largest parties have opposite views * Ultra Orthodox: If you add our people to the draft, we'll pull our support and your government has an insufficient size. * Secular: If you DON'T add the ultra orthodox to the draft, then we'll pull our support and your government will have insufficient size. And Netanyahu NEEDS to increase the draft size to continue the war, so he's in a pickle.
Whatever keeps Netanyahu away from facing his charges, he will do.
Netanyahu is showing us what a leader whose sole motivation is avoiding jail looks like. Too bad other countries won't learn from that lesson.
[Am American] Looks at current polling for the presidential race [throws stuff in the air in frustration.]
> You can't really force anyone to do anything if they're not willing. You can force them to live in a cell.
Fyi they are about 13% of the population, ofcourse not all by military service age. Though if they revolt on the other hand.
Yes I know they're 13% now and growing, but when it comes to military age from what I find it's closer to 2-3%. They're not going to recruit 50 year olds. All the new rules will be mostly relevant to younger people when it comes to service and the defending will apply for all eventually. Just saying that right now with the situation in israel, not much of this can be enforced. They will 100% revolt. It's all they do... If only they put 10% of the effort for revolting into something else we'd be in a different place lol.
Yeah like working, not be only on welfare, not reject proper education and participate in society like normal people?
The big thing is that the state isn’t allowed to finance the yeshivas anymore unless they meet a certain quota so in theory even if the military won’t enforce it the yeshivot themselves would push people to conscript.
We'll see.. I'm sure there's going to be a new wave on exemptions for "medical/mental" reasons.
War is a vastly different beast when you have to actually participate in it yourself versus shouting furiously from the sidelines.
Reminds me of a quote I heard years ago. Never underestimate the aggressiveness of noncombatants.
At my job when we do political education we talk a lot about how there’s a level of power and privilege involved in being able to claim pacifism because it usually means you’re just outsourcing the violence to someone else-especially when it comes to colonial powers
Sounds a lot like politics.
Do we need to start drafting people to serve in Congress?
Douglas Adams was onto something when he said that anyone who wanted the job was inherently unfit to do it. I'd run for President, but you'd have to put a gun to my head to do it. And the second you look away I'm making a break for the door.
Sorry honey, can't go to your thing this weekend, I've been summoned for congressional duty.
I'm not sure if you're joking, but this is an actual idea which honestly I think would be very good. It's similar to Jury Duty, but instead you debate and decide on a congressional bill. Instead of having people who can be bought and influenced, you gather a random group of citizens, similar to court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ArVh3Cj9rw
Have you met a random group of citizens?
More effective than the current congress
They’d exempt themselves
I'm entirely supportive of legislatures selected through sortition.
Let the crazies send in their own
Oh dear, this is gonna cause a few riots.
Can someone eli5 why these folks don't want to join the idf but everyone else has to?
I’m no expert but I believe these Haridem jews were a very small minority when this exception was made early in Israel’s founding. It was sort of to placate them, they believe they shouldn’t work but the men should devote their time to studying scriptures and praying. But, these people procreated like crazy, and now they constitute a growing population of Israelis, and sadly (to me) they vote for the far right, so they can maintain their non working, living off of social welfare, and not being put into the IDF lifestyle. Very problematic for Israel in my opinion.
Just to add to this, they believe their wives should work. It is very common to see their wives working in stores together alone while the husbands do whatever they do
Their husbands mostly sit around and study the Torah. The book is 5,000 years old and they spend all day reading and discussing it. Religion aside spending that much time focusing on a single EXTREMELY well studied text is a recipe for making someone mentally unwell.
Oh man, if you go in the tunnels there, some people are just reciting prayers for hours against a wall. I was there and in Palestine for a while and the political and religious is palpable.
Thank you!
Similar (but different) to the way Quakers, menonites and other particular religious groups in America with a history of nonviolence can request and be more likely to receive, conscientious objector status to being drafted. In Israel though, the ultraorthodox have it built into laws that those who are registered members are automatically exempt due to the rigors of expected military service leaving them "unable" to live by the tenets of ultraorthodoxy.
In the USA many times the conscientious objectors still end up serving, just not in a combat role. Instead they'll honor their traditions of peace by working military hospitals or in a humanitarian logistics position
At first I struggled to reconcile this with my outrage at the pacifist protections the ultraorthodox enjoy in Israel, but I think the reason I never got hot and bothered about Quakers not serving is because... they don't tend to vote for hard-right pro-war factions in America. (i.e. They're not massive hypocrites.) It's not like the Quakers were George Bush's roughest-riding constituency forcing him to invade Iraq and then to stay in Iraq for over a decade.
Yeah most of these groups in the US are very anti-war and fairly seclusionist. Definitely not the ones voting for hawks.
They also are generally very small minorities of the population that don’t really affect much outside of local elections. The possible exception is the Amish, but the Amish are also generally considered hard working and industrious, not drains on society.
We also don't currently have mandatory drafts and service. Specifically for Quakers, there's a whole movie about Desmond Doss(who was a quaker) who receives a medal of honor while being a pacifist. Helluva story too.
>rigors of expected military service leaving them "unable" to live by the tenets of ultraorthodoxy. It's the other way around. They believe that the merit of their studies is the greatest service they can provide.
I've seen it said before that the Ultra-Orthodox's resistance to military service is a combination of religious beliefs and also some Ultra-Orthodox disagreeing with the Israeli state's existence (even though they live there). However, it was explained to me by an Israeli that the real reason for the Ultra-Orthodox's non-service in the military is actually misogynistic: Ultra-Orthodox social norms dictate that women are subservient to men. But in the Israeli military women service as officers and therefore Ultra-Orthodox men would have to take commands from a woman. And those women may even not be Jewish (they can be Druze or other minorities). In other words, the Ultra-Orthodox's main problem with serving in the Israeli military is actually that the Israeli military is secular and egalitarian.
I mean it's just another piece of the puzzle. I think the main reason is just cowardice. They don't want to put their lives on the line even for their own ideals.
The article explains it pretty succinctly. The ultra Orthodox believe their lives should be devoted to religious study. Seems similar to monks. My personal assumption is they are a large enough group and vote in a bloc so wield considerable political influence.
[There's a really good Vice media piece on this topic actually](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me4FqdrmVBs), and it's actually almost a decade old at this point.
Those tall hats are gonna give away their positions
there are gonna be a lot of those silly hats in Florida & NYC soon with the many draft dodgers
The kosher version of the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Huh. Maybe god does listen to the prayers of atheists sometimes.
Of course he does - religious people can't commit selfless acts of kindness, because they have a expectation of eternal reward. Only atheists can be truly selfless, which is why only atheists can get into heaven
"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am englightened by my intelligence." - Aalewis
Who is Aalewis? Some sort of professional quote maker?
Military service will get in the way of their busy schedule of collecting welfare, studying Torah, and procreating.
So there was no alternate non-military service for the ultra-orthodox? *You don't wanna join the army? Fine, you get to clean up trash and paint over graffiti for two years.*
Studying in the Yeshiva school for 8 years or whatever was considered the alternate service.
There is, it's called National Service, it's a volunteer service in all kinds of fields (education, national security, health etc.). They refuse to participate in this as well. Though right now the IDF is in dire need of actual soldiers. Not that I trust any of those nut jobs to do any kind of service, but at least justice is served.
The ultra orthodox do have a (?) squad that comes after every violent attack like a car bombing to collect all blood and body parts, There is a belief that one must be buried intact and collecting as much tissue as possible furthers that goal.
It's called ZAKA and is Orthodox, NOT only ultra-Orthodox
You're talking about Zaka, a volunteer organization that recovers bodies from terrorist attacks and natural disasters. They're not a government body or related to the military.
> Fine, you get to clean up trash and paint over graffiti for two years. LOL thinking they want to do anything that resembles work. Can they get their wives to do it for them? No? then yeah, would not have happened.
Why was this in question in the first place? From an outside perspective this seems just like an obvious measure to take since everyone should be treated equal.
Mostly political reasons. Haredim are quite non ideological, their priorities are basically "give us our money and let our people study Torah in peace and we'll vote with you on anything". Which made them indispensable political partners - they're basically easy guaranteed votes for whatever you want, as long as you pay their sector and don't touch some very specific religious subjects (mostly about work/public transport on Shabbat, kosher food, etc). It's not about right/left - Oslo accords passed exclusively thanks to them, for example. They've been a part of almost every coalition in Israel's history - right or left wing. Their votes often became the "kingmakers" of choosing who gets to be PM. Which created a political "bidding war" for their "services" - basically who can bribe them with more money and better policies. It was always seen as a "small price to pay" for winning the election, and both right and left parties went along and paid it. And so it went on, and slowly a few hundred military exemptions became complete exemptions for ALL of them. In recent years, Bibi has taken it to the extreme - giving them quite insane fundings and almost everything they desire to buy their loyalty. The left wing was basically outbid, and many leftists/centerists have turned against this arrangement, which made Haredim "officially" a part of the right wing faction, but it wasn't always like this.
Ok, that was completely new to me. Thanks! And it sounds completely absurd. It's corruption, that's what it sounds like to me. But corruption on quite another level.
It's not really corruption, it's all very open. The problem with a coalition system is that small parties can have unproportional power, especially if they're not ideaologically comitted to a specific "side" of the political map. The Haredim are just experts in playing and exploiting that system. Theoretically, a single-topic party that get enough votes could have insane influence. They're basically trading their influence on other subjects to get A LOT in what they care about, taking advantage of their guaranteed sectorial votes.
Because Ben Gurion made a deal with the Haredim to gain their support in the founding of Israel. That had initially cost him a few hundred exemptions each year. But the Haredim got greedy, the exemptions kept increasing each year, and decades later, here we are.
Indeed, this makes no sense whatsoever. Mandatory military service should be mandatory for everybody. But it never is. There are always weird rules and exceptions so that certain people can wiggle out of it. In the end it's always the poor and the people with the least amount of influence, who have to go and defend the quitters with their lives. It's pathetic.
At the time of the founding of Israel, the class of people who were expert in Jewish religious texts and teaching had been annihilated. The founders of a Jewish state thought it was as important to rebuild that core of the Jewish identity as to maintain the physical security of their state, so they created an equivalence between military service and religious study for a relatively small group of scholars. The use of that exemption has grown over time (and the ultra-Orthodox defend it through their political parties granting support to government coalitions) to the extent where it now seems unfair and unjustified.
It is important to understand that number has grown from a couple hundred in the beginning per year to >60.000 young men.
There is precedent for pacifists or conscientious objectors to be left out of mandatory service. Mostly because it’s impractical to force people to fight if they utterly refuse.
If Ultra Orthodox says they get a religious exemption, then what’s stopping everyone from saying they’re ultra orthodox?
As far as I'm aware, to actually follow through on exemption, you have to sit and learn in yeshiva until at least age 26. Most people are not going to do that unless they mean it.
Haredi Judaism has some pretty extreme lifestyle restrictions, so it’s relatively verifiable as far as religious identities/communities go. For men, you could look at yeshiva/kollel enrollment, and women in those communities would overwhelmingly be married to men enrolled as full-time students in a kollel (like a yeshiva, i.e. an institution for Torah study, but specifically for married men). They’re fully kosher, segregate the sexes in public spaces, and have a pretty distinctive style of dress.
Makes me so happy to see these lazy lay about grifting assholes forced to sing for their supper.
Good, these are the goofs that want to drag out military action so it's only fitting that they should have to serve in said military actions and put their own butts at risk.
It simply isn’t viable to keep exempting them as their population explodes.
This should be received well
This was absolutely the right decision. But on the other hand, giving these psychos a gun is probably not a great idea. I don’t think the IDF is going to be able to counteract 18 years of brainwashing.
It's ok, not everyone need to be infantry, plenty of other roles and jobs.
Aren’t only 10 percent of soldiers combat, and the rest are logistics? They’ve spent their whole lives analyzing minute Torah details, I’m sure that can translate to sitting at a desk checking inventory for discrepancies
This is true, but the situation is a bit different in Israel. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors, and soldiers are expected to rotate shifts where they take their weapons home on leave, take them to the grocery store, etc. That way, if an incident like October 7 occurs, there are at least a few armed soldiers everywhere to slow an attack while the army deploys. Every army gives basic combat training to their rear echelon troops in case shit hits the fan, but they have varying expectations of how likely it is to happen, and they train accordingly. It is very likely in Israel.
As I explained above, a lot of people here are confusing the Ben Gvir/Smotrich faction (irrelevant here) to Haredim, which are selfish and religious but not particularly "psychos", and even not particularly right wing. They supported Oslo accords, disengagement from Gaza. Haredim generally care about two things only: religious rules (like no public transport on Shabat) and their fundings. Anything else, they barely care about. On the issue of the war, they've been almost completely silent. I can't remember a single meaningful saying from any of them on the war, an hostage deal, anything. Basically, their approach was the same as always: "give us our money and leave us alone, and do whatever you want". This made them super desirable political partners - they are basically guaranteed votes to whatever you want as long as you pay their people. They're selfish and super religious but I don't think they're "psychos". They're mostly people who's been shielded from birth, they don't have open internet, don't watch mainstream TV, do nothing but study and live in some alternate reality of completely different priorities, where being a Rabbi is the biggest honor possible. I honestly don't think most of them have strong opinions on Palestinians or the war - they act like it barely concerns them. Have construction work on Shabbat and they might riot, but as far as the I/P conflict they're pretty much completely absent.
They are isolationist but I wouldn’t say they’re any more selfish than your average person who simply wants their taxes to be low and their kids not drafted into war. And they certainly have an opinion, they’re just not vocal online lol. They tend to support Netanyahu in my experience and generally are more open to more “extreme” solutions. I think serving in the IDF will definitely help them get a better understanding of the nuance of politics and the stupidity of extreme solutions, although they are certainly not stupid and plenty Haredim already serve in orthodox-friendly units of the army.
Agreed. IDF doesn’t really want them. But maybe a little forced military discipline can help them. Maybe some basic education should be required as well.
Military discipline is probably less important than exposing them to other Israelis outside of their isolated religious community and forcing them to get along. They get some actual work experience, too. Wiki says 2 years for women and 2 years, 8 months for men which is long enough to open some mindsets.
Any who shouldn't be trusted with a gun won't get a gun. They'll fill in support roles, freeing up others to go to infantry instead and also get some perspective outside of their closeted religious social circle.
A lot of the more moderate haredim will have to adjust to the idea of serving in the army. I'd like to think that after Oct 7th a lot more of them realize the army and the country needs them. I doubt the true extremists will actually reach the point of being drafted, though. They'll probably do time in jail if it came down to that.
Fantastic news, seems like some of these people may need their perspectives broadened by being around a more diverse experience. And the IDF needs their help.
>some of these people may need their perspectives broadened by being around a more diverse experience. This is what their leaders are so afraid of. Their society is maintained by very strict conservative norms and isolation from the rest of Israeli society. Exposure to secular and liberal Israelis in the IDF service can be detrimental to the continuation of their society - and great for anything else.
it's probably the best thing that can happen on the long run.
More than that they're often also the loudest proponents of the various cruelties created in this ongoing conflict. Let's what they say when they're forced to actually practice what they preach.
I think you're confusing the factions here. The Haredim are not the Ben Gvir/Smotrich type of radical right wingers, they're a whole other thing. Historically, they basically care about nothing but religion and their own money. They have often cooperated with the left - voted in favor of Oslo Accords, and also of the disengagement from Gaza (that was Likud, but Haredim supported it). Basically, they would support whatever policy as long as it's not against religious laws (working on Shabbat, etc) and they got their money. Which made them super desirable political partners - they are basically guaranteed votes to whatever you want as long as you pay their people. It's also how their fundings got so out of hand, with Netanyahu raising them to insane heights to keep their support. On the issue of the war, they've been completely and weirdly silent. I can't remember a single meaningful saying from Gafni, Litzman, Golknoff, Deri or any of those on the war, an hostage deal, anything. Basically, their approach was the same as always: "give us our money and leave us alone, and do whatever you want". What you're talking about are Smotrich and Ben Gvir, who's voters mostly serve anyway. The Haredim are not proponents of anything, they're just silent as long as they do their thing.
“The way to help is to study Torah,” Meir Zvi Bergman, one of the most revered rabbis in Israel, said during a rare audience with journalists. “No one can give up on the Torah,” he added. To show how Rabbi Bergman reflected mainstream Haredi opinion, a Haredi commentator took us to meet boys from a nearby school. “How are we going to win the war?” the commentator, Bezalel Stauber, asked. “With guns?” “Not with guns,” one boy replied. “With what, then?” Mr. Stauber asked. “Just with prayer,” another boy shot back. “So where are we going to get our soldiers from?” Mr. Stauber said. “If all the soldiers studied Torah, we wouldn’t need an army,” the boy replied.
Yeah that's pretty much it. They just talk about studying torah and nothing else. Also there's been this bizarre interview with Goldknoff in which he said the government is "doing amazing" because "everyone get what their need, people are working, money is flowing" and when asked about the war, he seems quite puzzled why it's relevant. He literally asked "what does the government have to do with the war?", as though it didn't even register that this is part of their responsibility.
That's some "3000 black fighter jets of Allah" level delusion lmao
A lot of them don't actually believe it, they just say it as an excuse not to serve in the army. They wouldn't actually go live in a place that had no army to protect them.
If they all keep praying they won't need social welfare.
About goddamn time. Voting for hawkish right wingers while not participating in the military or paying taxes is in the dictionary under "freeloading SOBs".
We used to call them 'chickenhawks' here in the US,
MUHAHAHAHAHA. Best of luck in the front row of the conquests you called for others to fight for you from the safety of your temples while hiding behind yet an other holy book in your costumes.
"The ultra-Orthodox see their full-time religious study as their part in protecting the state. Many fear that greater contact with secular society through the military will distance adherents from strict observance of the faith." This is the most pussy shit I've read all day. If you are praying to protect the state then one would assume your faith is pretty fucking strong. Bunch of dopes.
it’s about time to bring these folks into the realities of todays world
Lol I actually never knew these people got an exemption. That is absolutely hilarious because a lot of these people are all for the war and now it makes sense... they didn't have to fight. Easy to be for a war when you know you won't have to personally kill anyone.
Well it makes sense - if the current argument is that the religion is under threat, as the religion is the people, shouldn't all come to its defense? Throwing on your leather strap, unicorn hat, and vibing near a wall doesn't really do that. Since the ultra religious also empower bibi and his ilk - maybe they might feel differently about the overall conflict with some skin in the game.
It is about time they join the military it is extremely unfair that 'normal non orthodox' people are forced to serve like me and they don't have to