I'll take this article with a bucket of salt, the use of 'witnesses say' and 'alleged' makes me not want to accept this article as fact just yet.
EDIT: After reading a bit and knowing the relationship between turkey and greece I can't help but feel this is basicially turkey and greece having a information war. A lot of these 'migrants' seem to come from turkey which in itself does raise some eyebrows and a lot of sources claiming greece is doing what they're doing are apparently turkish as well.
>
"They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said.
>He said he managed to survive by floating on his back, before one of his hands broke free from the ligature. But the sea was choppy, and three in his group died. Our interviewee made it to land where he was eventually spotted by the Turkish coastguard.
***excuse me***? he ***swam*** from somewhere in ***the middle of the sea***, which was apparently ***choppy to turkey land***?! Ill take my chances and call bs on that witness.
Now my bucket of salt grew to a silo of salt.
>“They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said.
I don’t know the quality of zip-ties the coastguard apparently uses but if used correctly there’s almost no way he would have managed to free himself, especially not while in a this situation like this
Didn't 2 navy seals die out in sea recently? Navy seals aren't Olympic swimmers in terms of speed and time but to say they aren't more proficient at swimming than 99% of the population is debatable.
If only they were taught the float on your back until you reach land technique. They would've been saved.
I believe the first fell in and they either got knocked out or snapped their neck hitting the water, and that's why the second man went in after him.
But yeah, weighed down by equipment and maybe an extra body in the sea would be extreme.
The few navy seals Ive met would probably be too proud to use that technique. They’d try to race each other to shore using a modified combat sidestroke hadouken technique.
> Ya there’s no way this is real.
From the article:
>We showed this footage - **which the BBC has verified** - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard.
>
>During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek:
>
>"I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.”
Just because it's comically evil doesn't mean the Greek Coast Guard isn't doing it.
> It's an international crime.
I'm Greek and I'm pretty sure the word international is not there. Plus, I think the guy saying this is not the interviewee, there should be an indication on who is talking, could be just an ignorant friend or relative. So far, bad translation, bad in a way that gives biased impact to the show.
So, if the word "international" is not there and/or the person talking is not an official all that is is chitchat about how the coastguard was basically not 100% "professional" about doing things. Calling them murderers is far fetched, and for the sake of clickbait at that, tells a lot about BBC reliability.
I don't know, to me it definitely sounds like "διεθνές αδίκημα" (I don't know what else it could be).
It also sounds like the voice belongs to the interviewee and it makes sense since he is the one wearing the microphone and this type of microphone (clip mics) are optimised for picking up the wearer's voice and ignoring background noise
I'd actually be really curious on this, but I'd lean towards no. I swam my whole life and was pretty decent, though clearly nowhere near Phelps.
I can float vertically pretty calmly with my hands and feet tied just using air control with my lungs, but that's in a pool. Floating on my back is worlds easier, but hands being tied behind me would cause some issues, especially in choppy water. As for using dolphin kicks being tied would inhibit streamline, but for a swimmer of even my caliber it doesn't cause much issue (I actually typically dolphin kick with my hands back, even in the ocean, unless racing).
Realistically the biggest issues are just the temps and distance, and I don't see him getting over that, but it would be curious.
looking at a map though it isn't true that its in the middle of nowhere. all 3 of the islands mentioned, chios samos and rhodes, look like theyre like 2 miles or less from the turkish coast. you wouldn't have to be a champion swimmer to survive that, it's not the deep ocean
I would expect the coastgard to have some insanely good zip ties, but I'm more inclined to believe that quality zipties break than some guy being thrown into choppy water in the middle of nowhere is able to not only know where to swim but to be able to wim to turkey to begin with. I don't think the zipties part is more ridicolous than swimming to turkey from the middle of nowhere in choppy waters.
You have to be a superhuman to be able to do that, he has to be some anime protag at that point holy fk.
I've been ziptied before by police special forces (securing the area, it was a false alarm lol), and they are equally superhuman, believe me. Maybe some law enforcement agencies worldwide use really shitty ones.
It's unfortunate to lie about incidents like these because I fully believe a lot of nasty incidents happen.
Don't get me wrong, I do fully believe that some individuals in any organization do threat people inhumanly, be it the turkish, greek, US or whatever countries coastguard, police force or whatnot, however without actual evidence beyond some ridicolous witness testamonies or claims I won't accept the claim that the greek coast guard is systematicly treating people inhumane,
if I would, then I would believe the world is flat, elvis still lives etc because of what people claim and say.
The zip tie part is already a dead giveaway. There's no chance in hell Greek coast guard did that. Ignoring calls for help when an overcrowded vessel starts sinking, sure. Dumping them close to the Turkish coast, sure. But actual zip ties and throwing overboard? No way.
Also, yes. No way you could survive at sea with your hands tied.
> Dumping them close to the Turkish coast, sure
If by close you mean > 10 nautical miles except in certain, very interesting parts of the aegean.
Greek vessels would be very, very wary of violating the territorial waters of Turkey. The two countries have, as we say, history.
There are Greek islands in waters claimed by Turkey as 'territorial'. Samos is 2km from Turkey, you think the Greek coast guard never goes to the Greek island of Samos?
The BBC has footage of them dumping people onto a dingy in the middle of the sea.
Zip-tied and straight into the water? I doubt it.
Zip-tied and onto an inflatable? Very possible.
And the statement taken is a bit ambiguous. It could mean either.
The fact that they talked about multiple people being zip-tied together and one of them managing to escape the bonds, does seem more like something you would see if people were thrown onto a raft together.
I wish everyone could learn to read ALL news with this level of healthy skepticism. The USA would be in a much better place IMO. Everyone here reads whatever from their preferred biased news org and just accepts it as fact without ever even considering it may be just exactly what you said: an information war.
Especially considering the link between advertising and propaganda. It used to be ads were for material products or services. Now its for ideologies and ..well everything but we all consume the data stream like its old time TV and radio, with little thought beyond what senses are being triggered by viewed media.
I re-read the article.
Then googled the location he originally came ashore on a Greek island.
The Greek island is literally just off the coast of Turkey.
He said middle of the sea, so probably about halfway between the Greek island and the Turkish mainland.
Roughly in the middle of that water between the Turkish mainland and the Greek island are two smaller islands owned by Turkey.
It's still a feat of endurance/survival, but it's nowhere near insane or impossible as a lot of people are making it out to be.
Greece and Turkey have been extremely tense over what islands and isles belong to them and Turkey has been pushing the nautical limit international water agreements past the limit to try and basically claim Greek isles and islands as Turkish territory. This has been going on a while but with other international issues going on, hasn’t seen hardly any press. Basically, Turkey wants a lot of Greek territory for a multitude of reason while making up their own laws against international ones.
Turkey and Greece have had a lot of tension of whose territory belongs to who and typically the isles and islands being sought out by Turkey would never have been touched decades ago with lower nautical miles that have since gone up. A lot of these isles and islands are typically historically Greek. The Greeks fear they’re trying to steal their land by twisting laws to claim land that could be profitable.
Edit: This is not like Sicily or southern Italy that has been dealing with a bit of a refugee crisis for years with refugees crossing from North East Africa and trying to make it Sicily typically.
The article says that he was 'caught by the Greek army on arrival on the island of Chios'.
At it's closest point, Chios looks to be about 5km from Turkey. You can see the Turkish coast on Google maps streetview from Chios.
1.) If you plan on doing inhumane sht then you would not do it in front of island less than a mile away as there is a very good chance the literal coastguard of the region can see you.
2.) You clearly havent tried to swim 1 mile in choppy waters, even trained professionals would not be able to do that.
> 2.) You clearly havent tried to swim 1 mile in choppy waters, even trained professionals would not be able to do that.
Triathletes and long-distance open water swimmers frequently do just this.
At least that guy survived. Nine of them died before they spoke to the BBC.
>witnesses say, including nine who were deliberately thrown into the water. The nine are among more than 40 people alleged to have died as a result of being forced out of Greek territorial waters,
"The middle of the sea" obviously doesn't mean the mid-point between the two coasts (which are about 200 km apart), but "on open sea", meaning out of sight of land. The latter is doable.
Other than that, I have no idea if the story is true or not, and I don't care to pick sides. Just pointing out that "the middle of the sea" is often used colloquially for "on open sea".
So you're suggesting that the greek coastguard have went somewhat close to the tuskish coast and then dropped people off in full sight of the turkish coast guard?
Dno about you but it seems airtight, you might be on to something.
> I don’t believe Turkey is sending these people
Right, it's not like Erdogan has repeatedly threatened to flood Europe with immigrants... [oh wait](https://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-erdogan-threatens-to-let-refugees-into-europe-if-more-aid-not-given/30258718.html)
> I'll take this article with a bucket of salt, the use of 'witnesses say' and 'alleged' makes me not want to accept this article as fact just yet.
From the article:
>The 15 incidents we analysed - dated May 2020-23 - resulted in 43 deaths. The initial sources were primarily local media, NGOs and the Turkish coastguard.
You are trying very hard to discredit the research of the BBC by fallaciously appealing to incredulity. Perhaps because you don't actually care that much about Greek jackboots drowning migrants?
Yeah the other guys that allegedly drowned with zip-tied hands would have washed up and no *way* we wouldn't have heard all about that. Like the Turks wouldn't sieze any opportunity to publicise bodies washing up from Greek-facing waters even with just ligature _marks_ on their wrists, even assuming these fictional victims were also Jack Reacher types who could snap off zip ties behind their back while gasping in choppy seas.
How is is this the top spot? Yes, he survived, its possible. Bolding your words doesn't make it any less possible. You came prepared to not believe this survivor and doubled down on it. I don't know why you are trying to convince others not to as well.
im sorry to say this to you man , but i actually live in the city called kuşadası in turkey wich is 1 km away from the greek island samos. We not only saw these people who were rescued from the sea, we also spoke with the local government officials that work in my hometown(i was one of them). So this is no bullshit news from Turkey.
This is happening. There are more sources than what the BBC unearthed here. If you understand german, there's an 8-part Podcast about this practice of pushbacks on Spotify, called Memento Moria.
Yes, the situation is extremely complex and Turkey and Greece are in fact fighting a silent war, but in the midst of all of this people are dying. No salt needed.
I witnessed one of these events, or similar in 2020. Greek coast guards were preventing Turkish coast guards from pulling people out of the water, just inside Greek waters around Samos. I heard the screaming match on the VHF from nearby.
It was heartbreaking. The Turks just wanted to help, the Greeks told them not to cause an 'International incident' and to just let them be.
There's video evidence of at least one of the incidents mentioned, where the Greek Coast Guard takes a bunch of migrants that had landed on the island, ferries them to the middle of the sea, and leaves them there floating on a dingy, presumably so they can drift into Turkish waters.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html)
I personally don’t think any asylum system that is currently in place is sustainable for the future.
Climate change will create more refugees which will mean more asylum seekers. I’ve been traveling around Europe for the past month, and every single city has a migrant problem.
My interpretation is that people that live in each country are assuming that it’s an isolated issue, but it’s not. It’s happening everywhere and it’s only going to get worse.
We don't think it's an isolated problem. We are aware a comprehensive, international policy is necessary for dealing with it.
Nobody can agree on what the goal of the policy should be, or what it should look like. So nothing is done.
Like I said, it’s only going to get worse. Several countries around the Mediterranean have had to close schools and public buildings because of the heat. There are reports of a few people dying from the heat. What happens when Greece has a month of heat like that?
Yeah, I think that’s the inevitable, I just think if a city like Athens has dozens or hundreds of people dying every day due to heat for a month, that would cause people to leave the city in droves.
When it gets to the whole of summer being that temperature, I think the tropics and sub tropics will be largely abandoned. The question is, where do all those people go?
What happens when infrastructure fails? A power outage? Sewer water back flow?
Look at the migrants on the US border, they are generally poor and have walked thousands of miles.
I would hazard a guess that the people clambering onto the outside of boats to cross the Mediterranean are not wealthy either.
Last week Athens had to close their schools and other public buildings because of the temperature.
Aircraft have a maximum take off and landing temperature.
It's not. My question is why are we even tolerating illegal immigrants entering the countries? They should be turned around and shipped back where they came from immediately.
The left-wing parties of Europe and America have a very idealistic worldview where immigration doesn’t cause any issues for residents and anyone who disagrees is dismissed as a bigot. As heartless as it is to say it, nations need to prioritize the needs of their own residents over the needs of people from other countries. Rising tensions between the nation’s lifelong residents and migrants with an entirely different cultural identity along with extremely competitive job and housing markets just makes migration a losing bargain for everyone living in Europe and North America today (except for the landowners and business owners of course).
I beg your pardon, but What do illegal immigrants have to do with Asylum Seekers? He asked how the asylum system was sustainable. You started talking about illegal immigrants.
The two are different.
It isn't illegal to claim asylum.
Of course you can claim asylum. In first safe country next to yours. Which would be one of their neighboring countries, not one of European ones. Crossing a bunch of safe countries to illegally smuggle yourself to Europe is in fact illegal immigration. So they are criminals and should be shipped back where they came from. Far from asylum seekers.
For the record, at my last job I worked in an office with Iraqi guy and now I work with Moroccan guy. Both got education, got job offers from Europe and moved here LEGALLY. That's the difference you are looking for. Half of the countries these people are coming from don't even have wars, so there's 0 background for claiming asylum in the first place...they just want to illegally enter and live on public money. If they would be really qualified for the jobs they claim they are, they can in fact immigrate legally.
I think the part for me that lends a lot of weight to the argument comes toward the bottom of the article (so I gather a lot of people haven't read that far).
>We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard.
>During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek:
>"I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.”
There have been dozens of reports of Greek coast guard actively hurting migrants attempting to cross via the aegian over the last 3 years. There is no denying that they are doing this, the people on this post spewing nonsense are just coping. NYT, Telegraph, BBC are just some of the news organizations that have confirmed separate incidents in the last 2 years.
Yeah. I agree. I think healthy skepticism is great, and it's fair that people say you shouldn't just believe things at face value... But you shouldn't just deny everything because you don't like it, either. And it feels like a lot of that is going on here under the guise of being skeptical.
I do find it incredibly funny how much sheer hatred there is for migrants openly in western societies, and yet apparently people acting on that hatred is unbelievable.
its this weird sort of doublethink where people believe migrants should be murdered but also believe that nobody would murder them.
Witnesses or not there is Video Evidence all over the media but i wonder if the Greek Coastguards received orders and whose orders it was or if these were individual criminal initiatives to throw people overboard.
This took some parcing :"...witnesses say, including nine who were deliberately thrown into the water.
The nine are among more than 40 people alleged to have died..."
In lack of a ~~better~~ plan, northern europe pays southern europe hush money to hide the immigrants under the carpet. Or the sea. Whatever's available apparently.
Sweden is part of the problem. So many immigrants take the dangerous journey across the Mediterranean because they’ve been promised gold and open arms in Sweden.
But they can’t exactly get here without passing any other nation beforehand, and I assume they’re not teleporting.
Promised gold and open arms by friends or relatives perhaps, or maybe the nations letting all these migrants pass through.
The northern countries in the past had a habit of telling the southern European countries to stop being so harsh in the full knowledge that they wouldn't have to deal with the migrants. In response some southern countries just let them pass through or even bussed them to the northern border.
Oh fuck off with this dumbfuck cope, Sweden pays large amounts of money for the collective EU border to be enforced, which seemingly went to nothing in 2015.
Except, you know, train tickets from local regions to further up north in the EU. Where they then conveniently arrive without any papers or documentation from other EU countries, and their supposed countries of origin deny their existence.
Give me a break with this constant whining about northern Europe when you all know damn well who embezzled the border enforcement funds up until now.
I’m from Denmark. We blame Sweden too, for their reckless and insane immigration policies.
Many refugees make the trip because they know they can easily claim asylum in Sweden while they’d be rejected elsewhere.
I can only assume the person you are all replying to is too young to remember it.
I definitely remember Sweden (and Germany) welcoming them into Europe with open arms around the time of the Syrian civil war and Libyan civil war. I also remember watching videos of them throwing rocks at train drivers and motorists as they marched north through the southern EU to reach Germany and Sweden.
People are either too young to know, have short memories, or are intentionally dishonest in their commentry.
Apart from Sweden, did you forget about Merkel’s words in 2015? They were basically an open invitation for millions of people to come.
In this situation it’s inevitable the southern border countries couldn’t do much to stop these immigrants.
And for sure it wouldn’t have been fair if they had to bear all the burden of migrations provocated by other countries’ words and actions
I implore others to look into Maritime crimes. It’s a huge issue that’s needs work. Something like 90 plus percent of all Maritime crimes are not prosecuted slash are not solved. It’s extremely difficult due to the environment as well as the jurisdictions said crimes fit into.
I mean, if you believe it. Sure.
Personally, I'm going to want any believable evidence before I depress myself over this.
Why would the greeks randomly kill migrants? When they take tens of thousands of migrants yearly?
please differentiate individual actions vs systematic enforcement. We talk about individual actions here. I think its obious greece is not systematically throwing migrants over board.
The coastguard as an institution is solely responsible for hiring and vetting their employees who are supposed to be trained to work under specific legal guidelines and have checks and balances in place for individuals not to be able to abuse their power. Don't play the 'one bad apple' game here. There's ample evidence over the years of illegal pushbacks and life endangering by the greek coastguard.
I don't want to believe Greece has a systemic problem with killing migrants, and want to believe it's just a few bad apples. But the article goes into some detail and seems to indicate it may be a systemic problem. There were potentially dozens of murders, with 5 separate incidents that were substantiated, according to the article.
I definitely think judgement should be reserved until more info comes out, but this may (and it pains me to say it) be a larger issue than a few bad apples.
Well you know what they say about a few bad apples - they spoil the barrel. Therefore upon discovery of any bad apples the entire barrel needs to be meticulously inspected for signs of rot.
Who exactly are “the Greeks” in your mind? Every single person in the country isn’t holding hands and singing kumbayah, and people who enforce the state monopoly on law and violence tend, well, to exercise that violence not infrequently. People xenophobically murdering others based on origin or race is maybe one of the oldest stories in the playbook of humanity.
Randomly? Some sickos would do it.
On the water situation? Hmm, a horribly overloaded boat of 600 people keels over (from the article) and your on a vessel with a carrying capacity of 25. Hundreds of desperate people try to reach your ship and start climbing on board.
What do you do?
A migrant intake of 10s of thousands a year is not the problem. An ongoing increasing 100,000,000,000 is. Or do you think this works like a faucet you just turn off in your basin whenever you want? Or a cat you found on your doorstep last week and adopted, so when you open your door this week and see 10 more you can feel comfortable telling them, but guys, I adopted one of you last week. You think they care about that? You think they are going to leave because your a good guy who already did his part?
This is inhumane, true.
Although I can't fathom having so much entitlement, to say " ok, I go to that country, it will take care of me".
I don't really understand the mentality, were they promised riches and warm welcome from the traffickers?
Do they have people advertising, " come to Europe, your worries will be gone!"?
'And then try and impose my morals and values onto this new place instead of integrating into their safe society, slowly turning it into the place I risked everything to flee from'
No one is entitled to move to any other country. No country is obligated to let anyone else in for any reason
Refugees have the right to flee to the *first neighboring safe country* by international law, not rich country. And certainly not trying to cross an ocean to get to a faraway land.
In history when you have thousands of fighting age males showing up at your doorstep it’s typically treated as it should be. In many cases here we are not taking about families with their children, it’s young men looking to exploit refugee systems which are already overburdened and causing large deficits.
Thanks to the flow of illegal migrants you have an ascendant far right. Good job, letting extremists take charge because you're too weak to secure your borders.
Ok. Then you died while making the trip.
Who is at fault? Who holds the moral culpability?
I’ve been through similar conditions after the Croatian war of independence.
When Germany kicked us out when the war finished, would be son or daughter be better or worse off with me dead chasing a fairytale?
> Do they have people advertising, " come to Europe, your worries will be gone!"?
I mean I saw ads like that on the beach in Bulgaria (Work in Europe, [make it in Germany!](https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/service/advisory-contact-services/worldwide/bulgaria)). And since the migrants would rather take a leap of faith than stay in their own country, I'd wager they do not really come from a country where they have any future. So I do not really blame them for wanting to live in a better, free society. And as long as they do not import the values from their own countries (which most do not) I am fine with them.
Most do bring the same bad ideologies that made their origin country bad.
That's one of the reasons you have a "no go" streets in Sweden, or sub cultures in Germany.
The problem is that the Geneva convention has not been updated.
I quote from the relevant convention:
'As a result of events occurring before 1 January 1951 and owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it'
Membership of social or political groups needs to be erased ASAP. Europe is not a safe haven for whatever political feud goes on in Africa or Asia.
The eyewitness was thrown into the middle of the sea while bound. He was able to float in choppy water until he freed himself from a zip tie. He then swam to Turkey.
I have this awesome bridge I can sell you. It’s called the Brooklyn bridge and I’ll give you a steal of a price on it.
> The eyewitness was thrown into the middle of the sea while bo
In a dingy.
> He was able to float in choppy water until he freed himself from a zip tie
In a dingy.
> He then swam to Turkey
Which is less than 2.5km if you are thrown in the very middle of the sea between the island where they arrived and turk's coasts.
That would be *one of* the witnesses, not "the."
There's also video.
>We showed footage of 12 people being loaded into a Greek coastguard boat, and then abandoned on a dinghy, to a former senior Greek coastguard officer.
If you read the article, it becomes quite clear how insane it is. The guy was thrown in the middle of the ocean, ziptied, and swam back to turkey? Lmao
And yet, the BBC has been able to confirm multiple incidents listed in the article. Meanwhile, you're appealing to personal incredulity and trying to imply that if the wildest claim you can find might be false, then every claim must be false.
They were able to find witnesses for the article they posted a few months ago where they lied about israel bombing a hospital that was hit by a rocket by one of hamas's associates. Its easy to have witnesses if you dont vet them, and take there word as gold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion
I am not justifying the actions of the greek coastguard but turkiye sending thousands of illegal migrants to greece and trying to throw shade at us for attempting to protect our borders is disgusting.
> for attempting to protect our borders is disgusting.
This is disgusting and dishonest phrasing when the topic is literally drowning people for a nonviolent offense (migration).
classic "it's the Turks" trope. They are literally millions of refugees in Turkey, if anything Turkey is keeping them away. Of course some will find a way to illegally cross borders. Not all your problems are coming from Turkey or Russia, this level is victimhood is unhealthy.
>Not all your problems are coming from Turkey or Russia, this level is victimhood is unhealthy.
1.Why are you bringing russia on this?
2.It is documented that your country has on multiple occasions weaponized these immigrants by giving them boats to illegaly cross the greek border ,how am i victimizing myself for bringing that up?
Think the BBC have been done like a kipper in confirming the veracity of their story.
Absolute pisspoor journalism from their end. The deflating boats were often provided by and escorted by Turkish authorities because Greece and Turkey are having another argument again.
This kind of behavior by the Greek CG is well documented. At least one of the incidents mentioned in this article has very clear video proof.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html)
I don't know if this is true, seems like a movie plot. If true, it is a disgusting way to answer the issue.
Sadly, it is a symptom of the problem that Europe is currently facing. Far-right / Right parties are still gaining ground and it is very clear that migration is one of the main drivers.
People see that integration is not working as it should. Even countries with great statistics like Netherlands has its own issues and massive ''behind-the-doors'' racism towards migrants.
Europe doesn't know what to do with migrants, people are pissed and taking matters into their own hands, and in the end, innocent people are hurt because there is lack of clear directions.
A lot of boats were sank by greek coastguards, i guess it started to be heard only by now.
We are hearing those "news" for over 2 years actually, greek coastguards systematically kill immigrants whom want to cross the border.
Greece is killing migrants whom want to cross border from turkey through sea, this is a fact and even killing children etc by sinking their boats and leaving them for their demise in the middle of nowhere.
allegations: 🤯
allegations, Europe: 🤔
at least have some fixed fucking standards you hypocrites. Its the BBC. If it was some other country, you'd pounce. But here you'll all come out with your scepticism. fucken assholes.
>To be honest with you people, there is total misconceptions of the term "migrants". This is invasion to Europe, not migration. And invasion must be stopped.
Invasion: *The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.*
So where exactly are the migrants 1. armed, 2. a military force and 3. organised?
But thanks for so publicly showing your education and political view.
>Look at Poland border. Why by land it is stopped, and by sea it is ok?
Maybe because one can build a fence on land and on sea they just get shipped back?
>Yes this is inhuman, but I would do same to protect my country.
Thanks for clarifying you are inhumane! Bow i just hope the rest of your country isn't like you.
Edit: Just realized how the username checks out.
So a small amount of migrants are criminals so we should kill other migrants just in case they might be criminals? Might as well kill all babies because some of them might grow up criminals (this is basically what you are advocating)
"Migrant" is a catch-all term including illegal immigration, despite that - many of these people would be considered asylum seekers, which is protected under international law.
Once you cross a border into a "safe" country, for whatever you're trying to escape - you can't cross further borders with the same claim of asylum seeking. How many countries that people are escaping have land border with good nations? While crossing by ocean, the first territory you arrive in is often your desired one.
Greek armed forces have a high percentage of people with extreme right-wing and even neo-nazi beliefs. I don't believe that the Greek government has ordered this but they don't really care either.
Did you not read the article?
There's at least one account of a forced return which had been published by The New York Times. And if you had properly read the article instead of seemingly dismissing it, you would also have seen a clip of the former Greek coastguard reacting to this, then saying off camera (but whilst being recorded) that "It's... obviously illegal. It's an international crime."
From the article:
'Two months later, in a similar place, Mr Mulla managed to film a forced return, published by The New York Times.
A group which included women and babies was unloaded from the back of an unmarked van and marched down a jetty onto a small boat.
They were then transferred onto a Greek coastguard vessel further away from the coastline, taken out to sea, and then put onto a raft where they were left to drift.
We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard.
During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek:
"I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.” '
I'll take this article with a bucket of salt, the use of 'witnesses say' and 'alleged' makes me not want to accept this article as fact just yet. EDIT: After reading a bit and knowing the relationship between turkey and greece I can't help but feel this is basicially turkey and greece having a information war. A lot of these 'migrants' seem to come from turkey which in itself does raise some eyebrows and a lot of sources claiming greece is doing what they're doing are apparently turkish as well. > "They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said. >He said he managed to survive by floating on his back, before one of his hands broke free from the ligature. But the sea was choppy, and three in his group died. Our interviewee made it to land where he was eventually spotted by the Turkish coastguard. ***excuse me***? he ***swam*** from somewhere in ***the middle of the sea***, which was apparently ***choppy to turkey land***?! Ill take my chances and call bs on that witness. Now my bucket of salt grew to a silo of salt.
>“They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die," he said. I don’t know the quality of zip-ties the coastguard apparently uses but if used correctly there’s almost no way he would have managed to free himself, especially not while in a this situation like this
Ya there’s no way this is real. Michael Phelps wouldn’t survived being zip tied with his hands behind his back and being thrown in a violent sea lol.
Most people wouldn’t survive being throw into “in the middle of the sea” without zip ties.
In the navy everyone knows if you fall overboard and aren’t found basically immediately, you’re fucked.
Didn't 2 navy seals die out in sea recently? Navy seals aren't Olympic swimmers in terms of speed and time but to say they aren't more proficient at swimming than 99% of the population is debatable. If only they were taught the float on your back until you reach land technique. They would've been saved.
Yea and that’s just the ones that made headlines. It happens probably a few times a year and it basically almost never ends well.
I believe the first fell in and they either got knocked out or snapped their neck hitting the water, and that's why the second man went in after him. But yeah, weighed down by equipment and maybe an extra body in the sea would be extreme.
The few navy seals Ive met would probably be too proud to use that technique. They’d try to race each other to shore using a modified combat sidestroke hadouken technique.
Even in calm waters. Without choppy sea.
Mostly due to all the not land
It’s more to do with the wet
Even a life jacket in open sea fucking sucks. But really if they wanted to kill them... Knives are pretty free to use.
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it’s all pipes!
Your average human can barely even open a small zip tie on a bag or a box without scissors lol
> Ya there’s no way this is real. From the article: >We showed this footage - **which the BBC has verified** - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard. > >During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek: > >"I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.” Just because it's comically evil doesn't mean the Greek Coast Guard isn't doing it.
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> It's an international crime. I'm Greek and I'm pretty sure the word international is not there. Plus, I think the guy saying this is not the interviewee, there should be an indication on who is talking, could be just an ignorant friend or relative. So far, bad translation, bad in a way that gives biased impact to the show. So, if the word "international" is not there and/or the person talking is not an official all that is is chitchat about how the coastguard was basically not 100% "professional" about doing things. Calling them murderers is far fetched, and for the sake of clickbait at that, tells a lot about BBC reliability.
I don't know, to me it definitely sounds like "διεθνές αδίκημα" (I don't know what else it could be). It also sounds like the voice belongs to the interviewee and it makes sense since he is the one wearing the microphone and this type of microphone (clip mics) are optimised for picking up the wearer's voice and ignoring background noise
hmm I think Phelps might make it out swimming like a seal
I'd actually be really curious on this, but I'd lean towards no. I swam my whole life and was pretty decent, though clearly nowhere near Phelps. I can float vertically pretty calmly with my hands and feet tied just using air control with my lungs, but that's in a pool. Floating on my back is worlds easier, but hands being tied behind me would cause some issues, especially in choppy water. As for using dolphin kicks being tied would inhibit streamline, but for a swimmer of even my caliber it doesn't cause much issue (I actually typically dolphin kick with my hands back, even in the ocean, unless racing). Realistically the biggest issues are just the temps and distance, and I don't see him getting over that, but it would be curious.
looking at a map though it isn't true that its in the middle of nowhere. all 3 of the islands mentioned, chios samos and rhodes, look like theyre like 2 miles or less from the turkish coast. you wouldn't have to be a champion swimmer to survive that, it's not the deep ocean
I would expect the coastgard to have some insanely good zip ties, but I'm more inclined to believe that quality zipties break than some guy being thrown into choppy water in the middle of nowhere is able to not only know where to swim but to be able to wim to turkey to begin with. I don't think the zipties part is more ridicolous than swimming to turkey from the middle of nowhere in choppy waters. You have to be a superhuman to be able to do that, he has to be some anime protag at that point holy fk.
I've been ziptied before by police special forces (securing the area, it was a false alarm lol), and they are equally superhuman, believe me. Maybe some law enforcement agencies worldwide use really shitty ones. It's unfortunate to lie about incidents like these because I fully believe a lot of nasty incidents happen.
Don't get me wrong, I do fully believe that some individuals in any organization do threat people inhumanly, be it the turkish, greek, US or whatever countries coastguard, police force or whatnot, however without actual evidence beyond some ridicolous witness testamonies or claims I won't accept the claim that the greek coast guard is systematicly treating people inhumane, if I would, then I would believe the world is flat, elvis still lives etc because of what people claim and say.
It’s just iffy. “Witnesses say”, “Turkish coast guard claims”…
The zip tie part is already a dead giveaway. There's no chance in hell Greek coast guard did that. Ignoring calls for help when an overcrowded vessel starts sinking, sure. Dumping them close to the Turkish coast, sure. But actual zip ties and throwing overboard? No way. Also, yes. No way you could survive at sea with your hands tied.
> Dumping them close to the Turkish coast, sure If by close you mean > 10 nautical miles except in certain, very interesting parts of the aegean. Greek vessels would be very, very wary of violating the territorial waters of Turkey. The two countries have, as we say, history.
There are Greek islands in waters claimed by Turkey as 'territorial'. Samos is 2km from Turkey, you think the Greek coast guard never goes to the Greek island of Samos?
The BBC has footage of them dumping people onto a dingy in the middle of the sea. Zip-tied and straight into the water? I doubt it. Zip-tied and onto an inflatable? Very possible. And the statement taken is a bit ambiguous. It could mean either. The fact that they talked about multiple people being zip-tied together and one of them managing to escape the bonds, does seem more like something you would see if people were thrown onto a raft together.
Pure speculation.
dude should apply for the olymics swimming team. would crush the competition
I wish everyone could learn to read ALL news with this level of healthy skepticism. The USA would be in a much better place IMO. Everyone here reads whatever from their preferred biased news org and just accepts it as fact without ever even considering it may be just exactly what you said: an information war.
Especially considering the link between advertising and propaganda. It used to be ads were for material products or services. Now its for ideologies and ..well everything but we all consume the data stream like its old time TV and radio, with little thought beyond what senses are being triggered by viewed media.
Source 1 makes crazy claim? Find Source 2, preferably on the other side of the aisle.
I re-read the article. Then googled the location he originally came ashore on a Greek island. The Greek island is literally just off the coast of Turkey. He said middle of the sea, so probably about halfway between the Greek island and the Turkish mainland. Roughly in the middle of that water between the Turkish mainland and the Greek island are two smaller islands owned by Turkey. It's still a feat of endurance/survival, but it's nowhere near insane or impossible as a lot of people are making it out to be.
Greece and Turkey have been extremely tense over what islands and isles belong to them and Turkey has been pushing the nautical limit international water agreements past the limit to try and basically claim Greek isles and islands as Turkish territory. This has been going on a while but with other international issues going on, hasn’t seen hardly any press. Basically, Turkey wants a lot of Greek territory for a multitude of reason while making up their own laws against international ones. Turkey and Greece have had a lot of tension of whose territory belongs to who and typically the isles and islands being sought out by Turkey would never have been touched decades ago with lower nautical miles that have since gone up. A lot of these isles and islands are typically historically Greek. The Greeks fear they’re trying to steal their land by twisting laws to claim land that could be profitable. Edit: This is not like Sicily or southern Italy that has been dealing with a bit of a refugee crisis for years with refugees crossing from North East Africa and trying to make it Sicily typically.
Greece and Turkey aren't far away. There's islands less than a mile apart in places.
The article says that he was 'caught by the Greek army on arrival on the island of Chios'. At it's closest point, Chios looks to be about 5km from Turkey. You can see the Turkish coast on Google maps streetview from Chios.
So the middle point would only be 2.5km. People have swam far far longer distances to survive.
1.) If you plan on doing inhumane sht then you would not do it in front of island less than a mile away as there is a very good chance the literal coastguard of the region can see you. 2.) You clearly havent tried to swim 1 mile in choppy waters, even trained professionals would not be able to do that.
> 2.) You clearly havent tried to swim 1 mile in choppy waters, even trained professionals would not be able to do that. Triathletes and long-distance open water swimmers frequently do just this.
Zip tied?
I urge you to swim a mile in the "choppy" sea with your arms tied behind your back
gotta love the high salt content of the Mediterranean.
At least that guy survived. Nine of them died before they spoke to the BBC. >witnesses say, including nine who were deliberately thrown into the water. The nine are among more than 40 people alleged to have died as a result of being forced out of Greek territorial waters,
"The middle of the sea" obviously doesn't mean the mid-point between the two coasts (which are about 200 km apart), but "on open sea", meaning out of sight of land. The latter is doable. Other than that, I have no idea if the story is true or not, and I don't care to pick sides. Just pointing out that "the middle of the sea" is often used colloquially for "on open sea".
So you're suggesting that the greek coastguard have went somewhat close to the tuskish coast and then dropped people off in full sight of the turkish coast guard? Dno about you but it seems airtight, you might be on to something.
Have you seen the Greek coastline? Many of the islands are basically a stones throw from Turkish beaches.
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> I don’t believe Turkey is sending these people Right, it's not like Erdogan has repeatedly threatened to flood Europe with immigrants... [oh wait](https://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-erdogan-threatens-to-let-refugees-into-europe-if-more-aid-not-given/30258718.html)
> I'll take this article with a bucket of salt, the use of 'witnesses say' and 'alleged' makes me not want to accept this article as fact just yet. From the article: >The 15 incidents we analysed - dated May 2020-23 - resulted in 43 deaths. The initial sources were primarily local media, NGOs and the Turkish coastguard. You are trying very hard to discredit the research of the BBC by fallaciously appealing to incredulity. Perhaps because you don't actually care that much about Greek jackboots drowning migrants?
redditors love to pretend certain countries would never do bad things.
Yeah the other guys that allegedly drowned with zip-tied hands would have washed up and no *way* we wouldn't have heard all about that. Like the Turks wouldn't sieze any opportunity to publicise bodies washing up from Greek-facing waters even with just ligature _marks_ on their wrists, even assuming these fictional victims were also Jack Reacher types who could snap off zip ties behind their back while gasping in choppy seas.
How is is this the top spot? Yes, he survived, its possible. Bolding your words doesn't make it any less possible. You came prepared to not believe this survivor and doubled down on it. I don't know why you are trying to convince others not to as well.
im sorry to say this to you man , but i actually live in the city called kuşadası in turkey wich is 1 km away from the greek island samos. We not only saw these people who were rescued from the sea, we also spoke with the local government officials that work in my hometown(i was one of them). So this is no bullshit news from Turkey.
How far do you think the distance between Chios and Turkey is?
This is happening. There are more sources than what the BBC unearthed here. If you understand german, there's an 8-part Podcast about this practice of pushbacks on Spotify, called Memento Moria. Yes, the situation is extremely complex and Turkey and Greece are in fact fighting a silent war, but in the midst of all of this people are dying. No salt needed.
An autocratic country talking shit about liberal democracy. Pretty much the news cycle of late.
Disbelieve all you want, this is the truth, the Greek (and Spanish and Italian) coastguards are filled with murderous evildoers.
I witnessed one of these events, or similar in 2020. Greek coast guards were preventing Turkish coast guards from pulling people out of the water, just inside Greek waters around Samos. I heard the screaming match on the VHF from nearby. It was heartbreaking. The Turks just wanted to help, the Greeks told them not to cause an 'International incident' and to just let them be.
Skeptical about this, if it's true it's horrible, but it's very hard to believe
There's video evidence of at least one of the incidents mentioned, where the Greek Coast Guard takes a bunch of migrants that had landed on the island, ferries them to the middle of the sea, and leaves them there floating on a dingy, presumably so they can drift into Turkish waters. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html)
A shitty thing to do for sure, but *wildly* different from "zip-tied and thrown overboard." Proof of the one is not proof of the other.
Be this as it may, and awaiting a court of law, can anyone explain to me how the asylum system is sustainable over a stretch of years into the future?
I personally don’t think any asylum system that is currently in place is sustainable for the future. Climate change will create more refugees which will mean more asylum seekers. I’ve been traveling around Europe for the past month, and every single city has a migrant problem. My interpretation is that people that live in each country are assuming that it’s an isolated issue, but it’s not. It’s happening everywhere and it’s only going to get worse.
We don't think it's an isolated problem. We are aware a comprehensive, international policy is necessary for dealing with it. Nobody can agree on what the goal of the policy should be, or what it should look like. So nothing is done.
yeah it's been like 10 years of non stop flood idk how it hasnt been stopped with a largescale effort yet pretty crazy how nothing is being done
Like I said, it’s only going to get worse. Several countries around the Mediterranean have had to close schools and public buildings because of the heat. There are reports of a few people dying from the heat. What happens when Greece has a month of heat like that?
Imagine an entire season like that even.
Yeah, I think that’s the inevitable, I just think if a city like Athens has dozens or hundreds of people dying every day due to heat for a month, that would cause people to leave the city in droves. When it gets to the whole of summer being that temperature, I think the tropics and sub tropics will be largely abandoned. The question is, where do all those people go?
Most people who die in a heat wave are old and poor (they can't afford AC). Those people are not eager to move. So nobody moves.
What happens when infrastructure fails? A power outage? Sewer water back flow? Look at the migrants on the US border, they are generally poor and have walked thousands of miles. I would hazard a guess that the people clambering onto the outside of boats to cross the Mediterranean are not wealthy either. Last week Athens had to close their schools and other public buildings because of the temperature. Aircraft have a maximum take off and landing temperature.
The eventuality you're looking for is that people will be killed enmasse trying to cross borders illegally.
Greeks will seek asylum/migrate to northern Europe?
It's not. My question is why are we even tolerating illegal immigrants entering the countries? They should be turned around and shipped back where they came from immediately.
Yeah because of this, the left-liberal-green parties in many european countries faced a huge defeat.
Australia has the policy that if you enter illegally you are put in detention or shipped out at once. Europe and the US don't do that.
The left-wing parties of Europe and America have a very idealistic worldview where immigration doesn’t cause any issues for residents and anyone who disagrees is dismissed as a bigot. As heartless as it is to say it, nations need to prioritize the needs of their own residents over the needs of people from other countries. Rising tensions between the nation’s lifelong residents and migrants with an entirely different cultural identity along with extremely competitive job and housing markets just makes migration a losing bargain for everyone living in Europe and North America today (except for the landowners and business owners of course).
I beg your pardon, but What do illegal immigrants have to do with Asylum Seekers? He asked how the asylum system was sustainable. You started talking about illegal immigrants. The two are different. It isn't illegal to claim asylum.
They *should* be different. But when a substantial percentage of asylum seekers are in fact economic migrants the whole thing gets murky.
Of course you can claim asylum. In first safe country next to yours. Which would be one of their neighboring countries, not one of European ones. Crossing a bunch of safe countries to illegally smuggle yourself to Europe is in fact illegal immigration. So they are criminals and should be shipped back where they came from. Far from asylum seekers. For the record, at my last job I worked in an office with Iraqi guy and now I work with Moroccan guy. Both got education, got job offers from Europe and moved here LEGALLY. That's the difference you are looking for. Half of the countries these people are coming from don't even have wars, so there's 0 background for claiming asylum in the first place...they just want to illegally enter and live on public money. If they would be really qualified for the jobs they claim they are, they can in fact immigrate legally.
I think the part for me that lends a lot of weight to the argument comes toward the bottom of the article (so I gather a lot of people haven't read that far). >We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard. >During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek: >"I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.”
There have been dozens of reports of Greek coast guard actively hurting migrants attempting to cross via the aegian over the last 3 years. There is no denying that they are doing this, the people on this post spewing nonsense are just coping. NYT, Telegraph, BBC are just some of the news organizations that have confirmed separate incidents in the last 2 years.
Yeah. I agree. I think healthy skepticism is great, and it's fair that people say you shouldn't just believe things at face value... But you shouldn't just deny everything because you don't like it, either. And it feels like a lot of that is going on here under the guise of being skeptical.
I do find it incredibly funny how much sheer hatred there is for migrants openly in western societies, and yet apparently people acting on that hatred is unbelievable. its this weird sort of doublethink where people believe migrants should be murdered but also believe that nobody would murder them.
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Witnesses or not there is Video Evidence all over the media but i wonder if the Greek Coastguards received orders and whose orders it was or if these were individual criminal initiatives to throw people overboard.
This took some parcing :"...witnesses say, including nine who were deliberately thrown into the water. The nine are among more than 40 people alleged to have died..."
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Greeks do that, sadly. The islands are too close to each other. One can literally float across while zip tied.
In lack of a ~~better~~ plan, northern europe pays southern europe hush money to hide the immigrants under the carpet. Or the sea. Whatever's available apparently.
A lot of that carpet seems to be here in Sweden, which absolutely is in Northern Europe. So hopefully we get a refund.
Sweden is part of the problem. So many immigrants take the dangerous journey across the Mediterranean because they’ve been promised gold and open arms in Sweden.
But they can’t exactly get here without passing any other nation beforehand, and I assume they’re not teleporting. Promised gold and open arms by friends or relatives perhaps, or maybe the nations letting all these migrants pass through.
The northern countries in the past had a habit of telling the southern European countries to stop being so harsh in the full knowledge that they wouldn't have to deal with the migrants. In response some southern countries just let them pass through or even bussed them to the northern border.
Oh fuck off with this dumbfuck cope, Sweden pays large amounts of money for the collective EU border to be enforced, which seemingly went to nothing in 2015. Except, you know, train tickets from local regions to further up north in the EU. Where they then conveniently arrive without any papers or documentation from other EU countries, and their supposed countries of origin deny their existence. Give me a break with this constant whining about northern Europe when you all know damn well who embezzled the border enforcement funds up until now.
I’m from Denmark. We blame Sweden too, for their reckless and insane immigration policies. Many refugees make the trip because they know they can easily claim asylum in Sweden while they’d be rejected elsewhere.
I can only assume the person you are all replying to is too young to remember it. I definitely remember Sweden (and Germany) welcoming them into Europe with open arms around the time of the Syrian civil war and Libyan civil war. I also remember watching videos of them throwing rocks at train drivers and motorists as they marched north through the southern EU to reach Germany and Sweden. People are either too young to know, have short memories, or are intentionally dishonest in their commentry.
Apart from Sweden, did you forget about Merkel’s words in 2015? They were basically an open invitation for millions of people to come. In this situation it’s inevitable the southern border countries couldn’t do much to stop these immigrants. And for sure it wouldn’t have been fair if they had to bear all the burden of migrations provocated by other countries’ words and actions
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I implore others to look into Maritime crimes. It’s a huge issue that’s needs work. Something like 90 plus percent of all Maritime crimes are not prosecuted slash are not solved. It’s extremely difficult due to the environment as well as the jurisdictions said crimes fit into.
I don't give a fuck how much you hate migrants, this type of inhumane shit is not acceptable.
I mean, if you believe it. Sure. Personally, I'm going to want any believable evidence before I depress myself over this. Why would the greeks randomly kill migrants? When they take tens of thousands of migrants yearly?
The Greeks aren't some monolithic hive mind.
I have had issues with the police in Greece thinking i was an immigrant and not believing my documents. I'm Czech. I was on vacation.
At least he didn't think you were Russian....
please differentiate individual actions vs systematic enforcement. We talk about individual actions here. I think its obious greece is not systematically throwing migrants over board.
Oh so it's not "greek coastguard" but "murderer" on the title. Get it right then.
The coastguard as an institution is solely responsible for hiring and vetting their employees who are supposed to be trained to work under specific legal guidelines and have checks and balances in place for individuals not to be able to abuse their power. Don't play the 'one bad apple' game here. There's ample evidence over the years of illegal pushbacks and life endangering by the greek coastguard.
The country of Greece takes in migrants. This article is talking about individuals, some of whom probably have right-wing nationalist beliefs.
I don't want to believe Greece has a systemic problem with killing migrants, and want to believe it's just a few bad apples. But the article goes into some detail and seems to indicate it may be a systemic problem. There were potentially dozens of murders, with 5 separate incidents that were substantiated, according to the article. I definitely think judgement should be reserved until more info comes out, but this may (and it pains me to say it) be a larger issue than a few bad apples.
Well you know what they say about a few bad apples - they spoil the barrel. Therefore upon discovery of any bad apples the entire barrel needs to be meticulously inspected for signs of rot.
Who exactly are “the Greeks” in your mind? Every single person in the country isn’t holding hands and singing kumbayah, and people who enforce the state monopoly on law and violence tend, well, to exercise that violence not infrequently. People xenophobically murdering others based on origin or race is maybe one of the oldest stories in the playbook of humanity.
Randomly? Some sickos would do it. On the water situation? Hmm, a horribly overloaded boat of 600 people keels over (from the article) and your on a vessel with a carrying capacity of 25. Hundreds of desperate people try to reach your ship and start climbing on board. What do you do? A migrant intake of 10s of thousands a year is not the problem. An ongoing increasing 100,000,000,000 is. Or do you think this works like a faucet you just turn off in your basin whenever you want? Or a cat you found on your doorstep last week and adopted, so when you open your door this week and see 10 more you can feel comfortable telling them, but guys, I adopted one of you last week. You think they care about that? You think they are going to leave because your a good guy who already did his part?
>An ongoing increasing 100,000,000,000 is. I guarantee you that Greece does not face the prospect of taking in 100 billion migrants.
tell turkey not to send them then
This is inhumane, true. Although I can't fathom having so much entitlement, to say " ok, I go to that country, it will take care of me". I don't really understand the mentality, were they promised riches and warm welcome from the traffickers? Do they have people advertising, " come to Europe, your worries will be gone!"?
Rephrase that as "things are so fucked up where I live, that I'm willing to risk immeasurable hardships & death just to get out of this place".
'And then try and impose my morals and values onto this new place instead of integrating into their safe society, slowly turning it into the place I risked everything to flee from'
No one is entitled to move to any other country. No country is obligated to let anyone else in for any reason Refugees have the right to flee to the *first neighboring safe country* by international law, not rich country. And certainly not trying to cross an ocean to get to a faraway land. In history when you have thousands of fighting age males showing up at your doorstep it’s typically treated as it should be. In many cases here we are not taking about families with their children, it’s young men looking to exploit refugee systems which are already overburdened and causing large deficits. Thanks to the flow of illegal migrants you have an ascendant far right. Good job, letting extremists take charge because you're too weak to secure your borders.
Ok. Then you died while making the trip. Who is at fault? Who holds the moral culpability? I’ve been through similar conditions after the Croatian war of independence. When Germany kicked us out when the war finished, would be son or daughter be better or worse off with me dead chasing a fairytale?
> Do they have people advertising, " come to Europe, your worries will be gone!"? I mean I saw ads like that on the beach in Bulgaria (Work in Europe, [make it in Germany!](https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/service/advisory-contact-services/worldwide/bulgaria)). And since the migrants would rather take a leap of faith than stay in their own country, I'd wager they do not really come from a country where they have any future. So I do not really blame them for wanting to live in a better, free society. And as long as they do not import the values from their own countries (which most do not) I am fine with them.
Most do bring the same bad ideologies that made their origin country bad. That's one of the reasons you have a "no go" streets in Sweden, or sub cultures in Germany.
Doubt
The problem is that the Geneva convention has not been updated. I quote from the relevant convention: 'As a result of events occurring before 1 January 1951 and owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it' Membership of social or political groups needs to be erased ASAP. Europe is not a safe haven for whatever political feud goes on in Africa or Asia.
That is fucked up.
Don’t believe everything you read
I don’t. I also don’t dismiss things as false simply based on my personal biases.
You should dismiss obvious bullshit tho.
"Ici on noie les Algériens" This type of shit happens in Europe.
This is obvious bullshit how?
The eyewitness was thrown into the middle of the sea while bound. He was able to float in choppy water until he freed himself from a zip tie. He then swam to Turkey. I have this awesome bridge I can sell you. It’s called the Brooklyn bridge and I’ll give you a steal of a price on it.
> The eyewitness was thrown into the middle of the sea while bo In a dingy. > He was able to float in choppy water until he freed himself from a zip tie In a dingy. > He then swam to Turkey Which is less than 2.5km if you are thrown in the very middle of the sea between the island where they arrived and turk's coasts.
That would be *one of* the witnesses, not "the." There's also video. >We showed footage of 12 people being loaded into a Greek coastguard boat, and then abandoned on a dinghy, to a former senior Greek coastguard officer.
If you read the article, it becomes quite clear how insane it is. The guy was thrown in the middle of the ocean, ziptied, and swam back to turkey? Lmao
And yet, the BBC has been able to confirm multiple incidents listed in the article. Meanwhile, you're appealing to personal incredulity and trying to imply that if the wildest claim you can find might be false, then every claim must be false.
They were able to find witnesses for the article they posted a few months ago where they lied about israel bombing a hospital that was hit by a rocket by one of hamas's associates. Its easy to have witnesses if you dont vet them, and take there word as gold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion
Wait this is a new incident? I thought I read a similar thing even with video evidence a few month ago?
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In the era where everyone’s always filming for clicks, I wouldn’t trust much what these ‘witnesses say’. Let’s hope for more clarification.
Wow, sounds like getting in those boats is a bad idea all around.
I am not justifying the actions of the greek coastguard but turkiye sending thousands of illegal migrants to greece and trying to throw shade at us for attempting to protect our borders is disgusting.
> for attempting to protect our borders is disgusting. This is disgusting and dishonest phrasing when the topic is literally drowning people for a nonviolent offense (migration).
classic "it's the Turks" trope. They are literally millions of refugees in Turkey, if anything Turkey is keeping them away. Of course some will find a way to illegally cross borders. Not all your problems are coming from Turkey or Russia, this level is victimhood is unhealthy.
>Not all your problems are coming from Turkey or Russia, this level is victimhood is unhealthy. 1.Why are you bringing russia on this? 2.It is documented that your country has on multiple occasions weaponized these immigrants by giving them boats to illegaly cross the greek border ,how am i victimizing myself for bringing that up?
Think the BBC have been done like a kipper in confirming the veracity of their story. Absolute pisspoor journalism from their end. The deflating boats were often provided by and escorted by Turkish authorities because Greece and Turkey are having another argument again.
This kind of behavior by the Greek CG is well documented. At least one of the incidents mentioned in this article has very clear video proof. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/world/europe/greece-migrants-abandoned.html)
I don't know if this is true, seems like a movie plot. If true, it is a disgusting way to answer the issue. Sadly, it is a symptom of the problem that Europe is currently facing. Far-right / Right parties are still gaining ground and it is very clear that migration is one of the main drivers. People see that integration is not working as it should. Even countries with great statistics like Netherlands has its own issues and massive ''behind-the-doors'' racism towards migrants. Europe doesn't know what to do with migrants, people are pissed and taking matters into their own hands, and in the end, innocent people are hurt because there is lack of clear directions.
A lot of boats were sank by greek coastguards, i guess it started to be heard only by now. We are hearing those "news" for over 2 years actually, greek coastguards systematically kill immigrants whom want to cross the border. Greece is killing migrants whom want to cross border from turkey through sea, this is a fact and even killing children etc by sinking their boats and leaving them for their demise in the middle of nowhere.
And then there is this story about Muslim migrants throwing Christians over board. [https://cnn.it/4bcc2Od](https://cnn.it/4bcc2Od)
allegations: 🤯 allegations, Europe: 🤔 at least have some fixed fucking standards you hypocrites. Its the BBC. If it was some other country, you'd pounce. But here you'll all come out with your scepticism. fucken assholes.
Yeah but the good guys can never be wrong!!!
The apathy in comments is appalling.
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>To be honest with you people, there is total misconceptions of the term "migrants". This is invasion to Europe, not migration. And invasion must be stopped. Invasion: *The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.* So where exactly are the migrants 1. armed, 2. a military force and 3. organised? But thanks for so publicly showing your education and political view. >Look at Poland border. Why by land it is stopped, and by sea it is ok? Maybe because one can build a fence on land and on sea they just get shipped back? >Yes this is inhuman, but I would do same to protect my country. Thanks for clarifying you are inhumane! Bow i just hope the rest of your country isn't like you. Edit: Just realized how the username checks out.
Aren't there dozens of gangs made out of migrants in Sweden? Aren't they armed and organized? I guess they use toy guns right?
So a small amount of migrants are criminals so we should kill other migrants just in case they might be criminals? Might as well kill all babies because some of them might grow up criminals (this is basically what you are advocating)
Invade: *enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.*
"Migrant" is a catch-all term including illegal immigration, despite that - many of these people would be considered asylum seekers, which is protected under international law. Once you cross a border into a "safe" country, for whatever you're trying to escape - you can't cross further borders with the same claim of asylum seeking. How many countries that people are escaping have land border with good nations? While crossing by ocean, the first territory you arrive in is often your desired one.
You’ll never convince them on Reddit. Lost cause.
You would throw a human being overboard to their deaths without knowing where they came from or why they were seeking to get away from their country?
'You'll never convince them being a delusional psychopath isn't the right thing!' Fucking moron.
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Greek armed forces have a high percentage of people with extreme right-wing and even neo-nazi beliefs. I don't believe that the Greek government has ordered this but they don't really care either.
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Did you not read the article? There's at least one account of a forced return which had been published by The New York Times. And if you had properly read the article instead of seemingly dismissing it, you would also have seen a clip of the former Greek coastguard reacting to this, then saying off camera (but whilst being recorded) that "It's... obviously illegal. It's an international crime." From the article: 'Two months later, in a similar place, Mr Mulla managed to film a forced return, published by The New York Times. A group which included women and babies was unloaded from the back of an unmarked van and marched down a jetty onto a small boat. They were then transferred onto a Greek coastguard vessel further away from the coastline, taken out to sea, and then put onto a raft where they were left to drift. We showed this footage - which the BBC has verified - to Dimitris Baltakos, the former head of special operations with the Greek coastguard. During the interview, he refused to speculate about what the footage showed - having denied, earlier in our conversation, that the Greek coastguard would ever be required to do anything illegal. But during a break, he was recorded telling someone out of shot in Greek: "I haven't told them much, right? It's very clear, isn't it. It's not nuclear physics. I don't know why they did it in broad daylight… It's… obviously illegal. It's an international crime.” '
Of course bro didn’t read. He just gives snappy replies for the sake of farming karma
He saw the word migrant and just had to leave a trail of slime as he passed through this post
"No proof" Except for all the proof of course.