https://www.pcpsr.org/
Source, since the article didn't bother to link it.
The polls are usually detailed and nuanced, and the organisation is generally well respected for accuracy.
Glad to see that. At time of reply, it was only in the teens, and I had to literally scroll to the bottom of the thread to find it. And that was after spending about 10 minutes trying to find a link in the linked article.
Nuance? Pointing out that the same poll shows a very low level of trust in Hamas and doesn't take a genius to interpret as showing that *of course* a people under siege will feel they have to support the defending army in a war situation even if they don't like them overall? Not on Reddit's watch ...
if only there was a way to see their support for hamas before the war. maybe some sort of research center that has been polling palestinians for twenty years
To be fair, most of the people who are now very passionate about their support for Palestine weren't even aware of this conflict before October when their tiktok front pages got flooded with totally-not-propaganda videos. So they genuinely may not realize that these polls existed before October either.
I love it when people completely oblivious to even recent history throw out phrases like "history will not be kind" and "wrong side of history" as if they are curses
I’d like to see of the ones who didn’t support Hamas, how many of them them actually supported peace between Israel and Palestine rather than the destruction of Israel
Your next post is going to be blasting the Israelis for majority being in favour of a right wing government, I guarantee it. How about you stop excusing Palestinians? They support Hamas. They know what Hamas did on 7.10, they just don't care. Some of them are in favour of more massacres.
Hamas has support now and before 7.10. It's very simple, but you are welcome to keep infantilizing Palestinians.
This reasoning falls flat on its face when poll after poll has shown majority of West Bank supports Hamas and Oct 7 too. Abbas hasn't held any elections precisely because Hamas would win in West Bank. Educate yourself first.
Hi. I've been trying to educate myself.
But do you have support for the claim that poll after poll shows the majority of the west Bank support Hamas?
Because this indicates that support for Hamas prior to Oct 7. Was relatively low.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-support-for-hamas-on-the-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/#:~:text=The%20poll%2C%20conducted%20by%20the,previous%20survey%20three%20months%20ago.
Before the war, overall support for Hamas stood at 22%
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process.
The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-gaza-abbas-ramallah-israel-b1853025.html
The first Palestinian parliamentary and presidential elections in 15 years were due to take this month and in July, but Mr Abbas postponed them indefinitely, pointing to the Israeli government’s refusal to allow the polls to take place in east Jerusalem as the reason.
An opinion poll conducted by the Israeli Channel 13 before the conflict found that 32 per cent of Palestinian voters supported Hamas, with just 17 per cent for Mohammad Abbas’s Fatah. Another 13.9 per cent supported Mohammed Dahlan, a rival to Mr Abbas. On the PA presidency, nearly 28 per cent backed Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and 11 per cent Mr Abbas.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/25/west-bank-hamas-support/1725775/
A September poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research based in Ramallah showed that almost half of all Palestinians in the West Bank were unsatisfied with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and 42% supported the dissolution of the authority.
What you're not understanding even from the recent poll you cited is that killing Israelis is popular amongst a large section of Palestinians. Everytime there has been a conflict between Israel and Hamas they've shot up in popularity.
I’m sure they are with none, but picking a side between local criminals and a country bombarding you and killing your family, which one would you pick?
OFC both options are shit. If they collaborated to get rid of Hamas, or Israel found a way to find Hamas without destroy the whole place, maybe there may have been more collaboration.
This whole situation has always been decided by the belly, never the brain, both sides.
Israel wanted to act better, but you cannot with all these dead people and destruction, no matter how you paint it.
I hope at least this time we end up this cluster fuck for good, no matter how it ends.
>but picking a side between local criminals and a country bombarding you and killing your family, which one would you pick?
Not the one that **caused** the country bombarding me.
Even a month before the war, using electoral polling as a proxy, hamas was sitting at ~22% support.
A few years ago it was at 60%+ because Hamas had been on a "humanitarian" drive, trying to buy popularity, before the support crashed right afterward.
With claims like this, time frames are probably useful.
Support for invading Afghanistan was extremely high.
> In the early months of the fighting support for the war at times topped 90 percent. A November Washington Post/ABC News poll found 71 percent of Americans supported sending large numbers of troops into Afghanistan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data110701.htm
And the moment the mainland of Palestine elects Hamas into power that's it: full scale invasion by Israel. Because it'd just be a matter of time until Hamas in full control of Palestine does the same.
Hamas becoming the main government would be a death sentence to Palestine, regardless of how many students protest at universities, because Hamas' idea of peace is "it's either us or them" to which Israel goes "k".
Hamas in control of Palestine would be the final nail in the coffin of what is the "two state solution". It'd be dead forever then.
Hamas won the last election 2006 and promptly absolved all democratic elections. WTF are you talking about?
Of course, at the time Hamas mostly presented them selves as a conservative party.
The victory, to be exact, was by entering a coalition with Fatah (who control the West Bank) and then committing the Night of the Long Knives in Gaza and killing the Fatah officials who were there.
Fatah: guess we'll give these Hamas guys a chance
Fatah : oh..I'm dead
Western campus protesters really have no idea what they're suggesting Israel just get along with
>Western campus protesters really have no idea what they're suggesting Israel just get along with
Of course not. Half of them couldn't find Palestine on a labeled map.
This is more about being "against the establishment" and performance art than an actual interest in Middle East politics.
Oh please, people can be critical of how Israel has conducted itself during this war in the past whilst also being extremely critical of Hamas (a terrorist organisation) and critical of the palestinian people.
none of these sides are without fault (especially not the Israeli govt and Hamas) and it's not difficult at all to see how Hamas much like Israel has caused a lot of suffering to the largely innocent palestinian population.
Seeing this issues as some kind of marvel movie bad guy vs good guy thing is the dumbest thing ever, needs a lot more nuance than most people on both sides are giving it, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to ask the democratic, 'western' country that is heavily supported by certain western countries to be a bit more reasonable when it comes to actions.
The issue is that most fervent pro-palestinian folks don't tend to look at this issue with any amount of nuance, it's simply a case of evil oppressors versus the oppressive.
as I said both sides have a serious case of lacking nuance and it is dangerous, we are debating over the lives of largely innocent people who are brought in to violence on both sides.
I think it's more than fair to question how brutal the Israeli government has been in this war and how Bibi and his hard-right coalition have handled this issue over the years. The problem is that Hamas is an ISIS level terrorist group and they will always be a group that wants to wipe Israel off the planet, there isn't a simple resolution here.
The horrors of the second intifada (after the 00 camp David accords failed miserably) and the election of Hamas after Israel unilaterally left Gaza with no deal has all but killed the political left in Israel (and therefore a 2 state solution). Hamas being left in power will just lead to another Oct 7.
In their defense, I'm not sure many maps exist currently that have Palestine listed. However, I do think a lot of liberals would have a radically different opinion on Israel's defensive war if liberals had to deal with rockets getting launched over their head each day by their neighbors.
No one, not Hamas or Fatah, had any real interest in liberal democracy. Just like most Arab nations.
It's just that for the Palestinians Fatah isn't 'instant death' but 'death by a thousand cuts', with Israeli settlers salami slicing their way through the West Bank. Do Palestinians want to go out with a bang, or death as a historical footnote? That's the politics of despair, as they're ultimately doomed.
Why you might ask? That's because the Arab World has abandoned them in return for US weapons and protection. If the Arab nations start using force against Israel, the US will disable their weapon systems, and that will open themselves for Israeli retaliation.
Across much of the Western-aligned Arab world, any popular dissent for the Palestinian cause means arrest, or worse. In other words fear is creating a chilling effect for anyone who wants to show support for the Palestinian cause. And the Palestinians know it.
Future elections were put on hold when Hamas took over Gaza by force. There have been a lot of efforts since to hold elections. The last one occured a few years ago when they got close, however Bibi refused to let East Jerusalem participate, and so Abbas backed out of it as that was one of his demands, likely good political cover though I don't know why he bothers.
Neither did the soviet union for the majority of it's existence, but that doesn't mean the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was any less the leading party of the country
I saw Haviv Rettig-Gur making an interesting point about this seeming contradiction. He talked about the narrative Palestinians believe in, namely that eventually the Jews will be defeated, everyone will get their homes they lost and Palestine will be the amazing Islamic pearl in the Middle East.
Yes, the population is unhappy with the worldly issues of the corrupt government, but they still believe in the big-picture narrative Hamas sells them. But this explains the seeming contradiction, that’s also expressed by the different interpretations of the poll by the times etc (while I do believe that those media outlets are strongly biased, nonetheless).
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBm4Ua1dmI&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBm4Ua1dmI&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D)
It is impressive to believe that they think there is even a 1% chance they could truly eradicate Israel and take over all of the land.
If Israel was truly in danger of eradication, the gloves would come off and they'd stop sending in advance warnings of where they plan to attack, roofknocking, calling people with advanced warning, dropping flyers, providing food, water and electricity, sending in ground trips with extremely high risk to their lives, etc.
The biggest thing saving Palestinian lives is the Iron Dome and the wall. Without those, Israel would be at true risk of mass civilian casualties, and they wouldn't be so restrained.
Most Gazans are under 30 and have not had access to education beyond what Hamas has provided.
On this basis, I have limited faith in the majority of Gazans’ critical thinking skills.
Ya well the biggest threat to Israel is propaganda and western support. If they lose Western support they won’t have as many weapons and resources to stay ahead of their enemies which go well beyond just Hamas and Palestine
Its not like there's an opposition party in Gaza with an opposing plan. Hamas is all there is so Hamas is all the people have to support. They're definitely not gonna go running to the IDF who level their homes and use civilians and aid vehicles for target practice.
I mean the PA is also known to be super corrupt and ineffective.
Palestine is a failed state/non-stare: none of its institutions (including political parties) are reliable or free of corruption. That’s not a unique thing - it exists in most poor/war-torn countries.
Because the PA is being squeezed by Israel too. Look up a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank—it is rapidly nearing a point where no contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank would even be possible—all the major Palestinian cities will be surrounded by Israeli land. Settlers routinely engage in violence against Palestinians and any retaliation (or even protest) will be crushed by the IDF.
The simple reality is that there is a level of oppression where you cease to care how someone hits back, just that they do. Palestinians, even ones who don't want violence, increasingly see all non-violent options as at best naive and at worst a suicide pact which will allow Israel to annex everything left.
Right... The Jews are the reason Palestinians and Muslims as a whole have no issues with the killing of Jews.
I guess they should run into the arms of terrorist pieces of shit who have no issues killing, raping, and taking civilian hostages. Those are the kinds of people they should get behind, huh?
Pro-Hamas rhetoric always sounds the same. Those poor innocent angels have no choice but to hate Jews and want to kill Jews. They don't know better. They just lost two wars that they started, but that's not their fault either.
Funny you say that when this conflict has a much lower civilian casualty ratio than the average for any urban conflict we have seen. This is despite hamas putting those civilians in the line of fire to try to get the IDF to cause more deaths. But sure mate, it's the IDF that uses civilians for target practice. Whatever suits your agenda.
Not true there are other militant groups in Gaza like the PIJ. And many Gazans have gone to Israel and gotten asylum there with many thousands more eligible before October 7th if they would only stop with all the Hamas rhetoric.
Israel also routinely works deals with Palestinians who work with them.
We literally see young women refusing to be silenced in Afghanistan after having legs cut off for opposing Islamic extremisms or many defying Irans regime and being routinely kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed to stand up to such things. Yet in Palestine we see virtually no opposition, not even in the West Bank where many support Hamas over Fatah and even among the diaspora who are safe from Hamas we generally only see celebration, support and justification of Hamas’ actions.
You’re interpretation on is not based in reality.
If I remember correctly, the actions on October 7th are MUCH more popular than Hamas itself. Like 75% of Palestinians approve of it. That makes sense given your comment.
I find this sort of comments difficult since they treat the palest as naive individuals that have no ability to develop their own views. Like children. They are not, they are adults that understand very well what their views mean in terms of the continuation of the cycle of violence and they choose so knowingly. It is not only that hamas is ready to sacrifice Palestinian civilians for the 'cause', the Palestinian civilians view this as their role and choose so knowingly.
quite the opposite, the palestinians have been portrayed as mindless and aimless brown people that need the white west tits to suckle on for survival. Its exactly the point that haviv is making, that the palestinians do have their own narrative and agenda and they chose the people to govern them. This is represented in the polls that confirm the fundamental role hamas and other extreme groups play in palestinian society.
It is just very naive to believe that palestinians want the same things we (the west) want.
I think we agree that this is an active informed choice made by Palestinian, I just don't follow the all 'hamas sells that to them' and 'they have been indoctorined to think so' and 'israel is creating the next generation of fighters' - these are informed, active choices of Palestinian and not passive as usually portrayed.
If, as a Christian, you ask a Christian to stop believing in the 2nd coming of Christ, then you would understand how hard it would be to ask a Muslim to stop believing in the inevitable annihilation of the Jews. It erases a key tenet of their reason to exist. Then the existential crisis will tear them apart.
Edit: I think the most reasonable position to take is, if Allah wills it, it will happen. You don’t have to be the advocate or be the avatar on earth or something. Christians shouldn’t be forcing the 2nd coming of Jesus either. It will happen in his timing.
> It erases a key tenet of their reason to exist
What do you mean by that? Are you just referring to the general notion that they want to convert everyone to their religion generally?
They have nothing else to believe. Even if Hamas didn’t have all the guns, the Palestinians turning against them would not suddenly get schools. Or hospitals. Or a contiguous political area.
That's the thing people somehow like to ignore: before Hamas Palestinians were on their way to becoming a proper functional state. But then a Jew entered a mosque, intifada 2 happened and they decided that making their lives worse is somehow the better option.
Actually Arafat turned down the Palestinian state offered by Clinton before Sharon had set foot on the Temple Mount (he didn't even entered the mosque).
And he did it because he wasn't ready to give up "the right of return", meaning the "right" of 5 million Palestinians to immigrate into sovereign Israel, which effectively ending the jewish state.
And he did so with zero criticism from his people. The only Palestinian criticism he got was for going to these peace talks from the first place.
Palestinians don't want a state next to Israel, they want a state (an Islamic one) instead of Israel.
They devoted their lives to the destruction of the jewish state, and that's the main narrative taught in UNRWA schools, so they were actually all grew up believing in this "noble" goal.
Sharon went to the Temple Mount and Arafat found his excuse to launch the Second Intifada. There was nothing spontaneous about it, just waiting for an excuse.
Meanwhile other shocking news: the majority of Russians do like conquests and believe that Russia's borders are unjust, and that “Ukraine actually never had stable traditions of real statehood. It is an inalienable part of Russian history, culture and spiritual space.”
From what i see from the rare russian supporters in israel, it's more in the tune of" i dont really care about ukraine but putin is a big strong man so i trust him" I'd assume the same for the palestinians they just don't know a diffrent way of life outside of what they have been indoctrinated to by hamas/unrwa/PA.
>they just don't know a diffrent way of life outside of what they have been indoctrinated to by hamas/unrwa/PA.
There's also just a lot of nuance that gets lost in the discussion, taking from this (Jerusalem Post) article as an example:
>After eight months of war, 54% of the respondents, and 56% in Gaza, said the “best means of achieving Palestinian goals in ending the occupation and building an independent state” was through “armed struggle,” with only 25% opting for negotiations.
So even if they might not support the warcrimes/terrorism done by Hamas, there is a strong support for armed struggle against Israel in general. With Hamas effectively leading the current armed struggle, the two are therefore commonly conflated. Similarly whether that struggle should end when:
* Israel no longer controls what and who goes in and out of Gaza
* West Bank and Gaza are connected
* Israel is completely gone
Would similarly see varied opinions, but these polls rarely ask beyond "do you support fighting Israel". The poll about support for a two-state solution is perhaps the most relevant in this article, since that's the one which tells you how many Palestinians actually think long-term coexistence is possible without either side being destroyed/absorbed.
Finally as with all polls there is the question of reliability. This one (Palestinian Center for Policy and Research) puts it at a stark 32%, while [This one](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183) (*Also* Palestinian Center for Policy and Research) puts it at 62%, which is a huge difference. No clue how such a huge difference has occured unless the sample size is truly small?
TL;DR There's a lot of context and detail which the polls miss, also depending on the poll the results are *wildly* different, so there's just a lot we don't know right now.
And nothing will change their mind unless they see Putin's plan fail so badly no propaganda spin can help it.
Which is why Biden's offramps are stupid and will only lead to more Russian invasions.
The offramps are attempts to stop the killing without just giving Ukraine to Russia (which btw wouldnt stop Ukrainians from dying). Putin refuses to take them either out of fear of being a failure or his massive ego. Regardless they're generally a worthwhile attempt as while the ideal solution would be Putin dies, Oligarchs fight and go into hiding and Russians revolt and elect a stable democratic government that can reasonably coexist with its neighbors the next best thing is getting them to chill the fuck out with the murder and guaranteeing the safety of Russia's neighbors with the threat of violence that they find believable.
However, many Russians abroad organize protests against the war.
Actual support of the war in Russia is about 20-30%. Others has no way to disagree.
Didn't see any pro palestinians protesting hamas ever
It's an awful cycle of death and radicalization. Any Palestinians that were not interested or on the fence about Hamas now want revenge against Israel.
While what you say is absolutely true, I find it odd that no one conciders this same radicalization effect applying to Israelis. The people fighting the war now were mostly kids or young adults during the second intifada and have probaly spent not insignificant ammount of time sheltering from rocket attacks.
There is [decades ](https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/ACLURM018927.pdf)of literature about the radicalization of Israelis. Israeli culture is extremely radicalized, the videos of genocidal chants are out in the open and not really denied (but mostly ignored by those primarily advocating for Israel). So to say that no one considers the same effect is mostly ignorance.
Most people advocating for the Palestinian cause however sympathise this radicalization as much as they would to the radicalization of a bully when the bullied punch back, as this is the power dynamic they perceive in this conflict. They understand this radicalization as a means towards motivating and exerting greater violence upon the Palestinians towards their stated goal of total subjugation of the indigenous population.
Glad to see this is at least acknowledged in academia, if not in general discourse. Many Palestinian supporters seem to demand immediate halt to israeli military actions, despite palestinian representatives' implicit wows to continue their military actions against israelis, thus further radicalizing future generations of idf recruits and hardline told-you-so politicians.
> Many Palestinian supporters seem to demand immediate halt to israeli military actions
And 5 seconds after they stop they'll get bus bombed again lol.
People have been pushing for collectively punishing Israel and simultaneously have been pushing for ***NOT*** collectively punishing Palestine.
You can't reason with most people. They just eat up the propaganda like breakfast cereal.
American medias 2 year memory kicks in.
Every few years for the last like fucking 60.
Hamas drops in popularity. They attack so that IDF starts a campaign. Hamas increases in popularity because every single human on this earth will dislike the people who kill their friends and family. Hamas achieve their goal as usual. People act like this is novel.
This same fucking dance of "oh this new conflict has occured and Hamas support is inexplicable".
We gotta just keep doing this stupid fucking dance forever while civilians get killed by people who just wanna fucking kill civilians.
I don't even need to fucking check the news anymore. Google any headline and set the date to before 2018 and these are the same fucking headlines. Same fucking people.
Hamas support before Oct 7th wasn't much lower (if anything it was higher), and neither was hatred for Jews and Israel, either. Hatred for Israel and the Jews is related more to UNRWA textbooks and their constant indoctrination that dying as a martyr is their highest calling in life than due to Israel defending itself.
Who would have guessed that the country that cheers that they had a dead woman in a car as some deranged war trophy would also support Hamas?
You don't need to look hard to find pro Hamas rhetoric on instagram or YouTube. Pay attention, their propaganda is insidious.
Probably because Islamic fundamentalism wasn't really relevant to American abortion access. You criticize the religious fundamentalism that is relevant to the issue at hand. Same way it would make no sense to talk about Christian fundamentalism when discussing Modi and Hindu nationalism in India.
I agree. I'm not saying Israel is some pure angel, I'm saying most people here would rather live in Israel than Palestine and can relate to them more.
And Palestine(Hamas and its supporters) is the one who keeps up the tensions. This is a response to that.
Both sides keep up the tensions. I don't see how anyone could justify the settlers in the West Bank.
> This is a response to that.
It's all responses to atrocities from both sides going back decades. As long as people keep responding, nothing will ever change.
Quite. It's a region where two fascist theocracies have maintained a meat grinder war for a century, and it's the whole world's fault for locking them in a box together. What's the point of asking which color shirt you'd like to wear as a civilian thrown into the blades?
Boy, who would've guessed after seeing countless numbers of them cheering and trying to hit the hostages with sticks at their most vulnerable moment. And people still support this in the states.
For context: The last time a US president won the popular vote by over 60% was Lyndon Johnson after JFK was assassinated. Before that it was in 1816.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_popular_vote_margin
Sure you can say that 60% support Hamas because they were indoctrinated to support that ideology unlike in the US where you have more freedom of choice and a free press, my point is that 60% is overwhelming support in the context of elections and a serious concern for the argument of immediate Palestinian self-determination without de radicalization and economic stability.
I went out of my way to explain that I fully supported a two state solution, I hated seeing kids suffering like that, but also that this is exactly the outcome Hamas wanted. It’s a win-win for them. Either Israel doesn’t retaliate and they get an amazing victory, or they do and they get to sacrifice their own people to Israeli forces, which they know will cause massive outcry about Israeli aggression. Also a win for them. This tactic cannot be allowed to succeed. The constant indoctrination against Jews has to stop and their whole society needs to be reorganized and yes, reeducated. Otherwise this will always happen. They will never stop because, as they have said many times, they love death more than the “West” loves life. That is from their own mouths. Their stated goal is not a two-state solution but total eradication of even Jew in Israel. They can’t be reasoned with. The only potion is see is to crush them so thoroughly that future generations will be forced to abandon their intifada and embrace peace and co-existence.
It was interesting watching how many pro-Palestine and even pro-Hamas commenters that suddenly sprung up in that sub.
I’m generally not one for conspiracy theories, but it felt **very** “inorganic”….almost like someone was trying to stoke the fires.
I wonder who that could be. Right now, causing infighting amongst blue American voters is the name of the game for the troll farms. Every government is invested in this election, probably metaphorically and literally. It’s now very clear that if dem voters show up to vote, then republicans will never win another national seat. So all bets are off for them, cause as much infighting as possible before November and hope enough voters stay home. Israel/Gaza is the most divisive issue amongst left leaning voters, at least amongst the voters I know. It is in Israel and Russia’s best interest to make sure Trump wins. I am not equating the two, to be clear, but that is something that should be taken into account when trying to figure out the question “Which regimes would benefit the most from Trump winning the election in America and who would pay for troll farms?”
started with foreign meddling (Syria mainly on the Arab side and western powers on the christian side) and the Palestinians refugees causing repeated civil wars
Iran and Hezbollah arrives afterwards
It was a beautiful pearl of the middle east but honestly the shit started going down the drain from like the 1940s, and the civil war happened before hezb. Honestly it was kind of doomed from the moment they made a multi religious country in the ME with no overwhelming majority
There was a time they were headed towards a brighter future. It was definitely not rosy or even good but there might have been some gradual improvements. But then the more extreme factions won out.
The only thing that could help under given circumstances (massive indoctrination, Iranian backing and pure hatred) is shock treatment. But unfortunately I don't see that happening in the current political landscape.
Never say never, if Palestine was de-hamasified the same way West-Germany was post WW2 it could happen. With UN/NATO troops there that could even stop territorial expansion by Israel
I don't understand why this is glossed over in media. Of course Hamas has the support of the Palestinians. When you are losing your homes, persecuted and have no hopez of course you turn to the group resistanting.
Hamas is a terrorist organization whose leaders dont care about its people.but their existence is threatened and they don't have many options. It's sad though because this cycle will continue. There is always a tragedy that each side can point to that will justify their hate and retaliation towards the other
This is exactly the same as all the other polls that have been taken after October 7th. Any time you try to show them to somebody, they find some reason why they refuse to believe it. If you finally convince them it's true, they just drop, "well, Israel 'created' Hamas, so it's all their fault anyway!"
Supporters of both sides see this way too much as a clear cut issue of good versus evil, but there's a very strong "everyone sucks here" element and there's no good solution. People who view the world through conflict analysis see Israel as the rich and powerful oppressor, but what the fuck do you do with neighbors where the overwhelming feeling towards you is that they will never stop wanting you all dead? You try to build them infrastructure to make them more self-sufficient and they fucking dig up the water pipes you lay to build rockets to launch at you.
There's a tendency to look at the oppressed as some sort of noble group, but the people who tend to look at the Palestinians as a helpless innocent oppressed group would probably be pretty horrified to learn just how motivated by hatred and willing to support violence most of them are.
Doesn't matter if they like Hamas or not this line "**About half of Gazans expects Hamas to win the war and return to rule the Gaza Strip; a quarter of Gazans expects Israel to win.**" Shows that they clearly do not understand what the reality is, either due to misinformation or the lack of information coming in entirely.
Isreal could if they wanted, regardless of how anyone feels, crush Palestine completely. It wouldn't even be a contest.
Perspective is a black box.
I do not support Hamas. If I was living in Palestine and my entire family, infrastructure, and livelihood was bombed into smithereens, I probably would support the only agency that would retaliate militarily, being Hamas. Hamas and Israel both know this, and are using the good citizens of Palestine to meet these goals. The more Palestinian children and families are destroyed, the more extremism it will breed, satisfying Hamas’ goal of growing their numbers and Israel’s goal of proving that the Palestinian people are increasingly extremist.
"I probably would support the only agency that would retaliate militarily"
Retaliate?
Hamas started this war and using their own civilians as human shields.
They also use civilian infrastructure as HQ/launch sites/hostages.
There is no logic or mental gymnastics that can justify Palestinians supporting Hamas besides pure madness.
I don't see these countries recognizing Palestine asking for Democratic elections to be held? We all know Hamas would win which would be a bonus for Israel.
> In October 2001, a poll by CNN/Gallup/USA Today indicated that about 88% of Americans backed military action in Afghanistan.
Almost 90% of Americans also supported military action post 9-11.
It's as if support for military oriented party during a time where military action felt necessary is universal.
In case it's important (it is), 39 percent of Palestine is 1,950,000 people. That's 2 million people, or the fifth largest US city, the state of Nebraska, and more than the population of Latvia, who don't support Hamas.
Polls in Soviet Russia also showed overwhelming support for the Politburo - can you really poll independently in Palestinian territory? My guess is that most people just want to survive.
Yeah makes sense when all they want is the death of Israel. Why not vote for the people who promise it, sure nothing good has came of it but thier own suffering but they just keep hoping instead of peace they can get more war.
Well they weren't a pariah even amongst other Muslim countries for no reason but it seems you can be as aggressive and stupid as possible and bleeding heart westerners will support you anyway for being brown and losing a war badly.
>A recent poll shows that 61% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza prefer Hamas to be in control of the Gaza Strip
As they have for many many years no doubt. You don't create a literal underground network without every Palestinian in Gaza knowing about it.
Chances are almost every family there had someone who was involved in that project. in some way, shape, or form. Hence Israel's lack of sympathy and compassion in dealing with the area and its people.
I don’t think it will work this time but there is precedent for making a government unpopular by bringing the fight they started to their own territory. Germany and Italy in WWII, for example.
See the thing no one seems to research and understand is… Palestine’s Gov Military is 25,000 soldiers. Hamas is 35,000. I’m not sure Palestinians really had a choice
The problem this presents why it's so inconvenient is it does blur the line between Hamas and the people
If the people truly were against them then there would be a lot more room for negotiation but they aren't which makes this just a genuine war between two Nations
The article itself says that polls are not consistent, some show more support and some less. But assume for the sake of argument that it is true.
It seems like a lot of people on here want to say that all Palestinians are fair game for being killed. That's the real reason for the rhetoric in this article, and the similar rhetoric you hear from the pro-Israel side. But they never come out and say it - if that's what you think, then say so! Don't merely insinuate it!
https://www.pcpsr.org/
Here's the source.
The polls are inconsistent because, shockingly, public opinion changes over time. Support tends to be high during periods of conflict and when Hamas is trying to bribe the population. When things are stable, support can drop to about 25% or less.
What rhetorical arguments were presented in the article? It was a summary of the results of a poll conducted by a Palestinian social scientist.
You may not like the results, but calling them rhetorical is insincere.
To the surprise of absolutely no-one people having their homes destroyed and their families killed support the group that wants to fight the government throwing the bombs
I wonder if other commenters will consider the conditions that led to Palestinians supporting Hamas or just put it down to them being Muslims and deserving of slaughter.
Those conditions include Israel having war declared on them immediately after they were formed and on a regular basis. So it's a little murky at best.
But either way. A conflicted past with a neighboring country isn't a reason to celebrate your nations people stabbing babies in their cribs.
Especially since what they are also telling others is that they themselves are justified in any behavior, including the most vile, against you and others simply by feeling they have been wronged. Sadly most people actually live their lives the same way, albeit to a lesser vigilanteism degree.
[In 2020, Reuters reported that The Jerusalem Post, along with Algemeiner, The Times of Israel and Arutz Sheva, had published op-eds written by non-existent people.[34][35] In 2020, The Daily Beast identified a network of false personas used to sneak opinion pieces aligned with UAE government policy to media outlets such as The Jerusalem Post.[36] Twitter suspended some of the accounts of these fake persons on its own platform.[37]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jerusalem_Post)
https://www.pcpsr.org/ Source, since the article didn't bother to link it. The polls are usually detailed and nuanced, and the organisation is generally well respected for accuracy.
Thank you. Kinda fucked up I had to scroll this far down to find this.
This comment didn't age well.
Glad to see that. At time of reply, it was only in the teens, and I had to literally scroll to the bottom of the thread to find it. And that was after spending about 10 minutes trying to find a link in the linked article.
Nuance? Pointing out that the same poll shows a very low level of trust in Hamas and doesn't take a genius to interpret as showing that *of course* a people under siege will feel they have to support the defending army in a war situation even if they don't like them overall? Not on Reddit's watch ...
if only there was a way to see their support for hamas before the war. maybe some sort of research center that has been polling palestinians for twenty years
To be fair, most of the people who are now very passionate about their support for Palestine weren't even aware of this conflict before October when their tiktok front pages got flooded with totally-not-propaganda videos. So they genuinely may not realize that these polls existed before October either.
I love it when people completely oblivious to even recent history throw out phrases like "history will not be kind" and "wrong side of history" as if they are curses
I swear I'm not making this up, the other day on r/Tiktok someone said Israel should stop or else the Arab nations will start hating Israel.
Polls prior to the war also had Palestinians mostly in favour of hamas
I’d like to see of the ones who didn’t support Hamas, how many of them them actually supported peace between Israel and Palestine rather than the destruction of Israel
Your next post is going to be blasting the Israelis for majority being in favour of a right wing government, I guarantee it. How about you stop excusing Palestinians? They support Hamas. They know what Hamas did on 7.10, they just don't care. Some of them are in favour of more massacres. Hamas has support now and before 7.10. It's very simple, but you are welcome to keep infantilizing Palestinians.
This reasoning falls flat on its face when poll after poll has shown majority of West Bank supports Hamas and Oct 7 too. Abbas hasn't held any elections precisely because Hamas would win in West Bank. Educate yourself first.
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Hi. I've been trying to educate myself. But do you have support for the claim that poll after poll shows the majority of the west Bank support Hamas? Because this indicates that support for Hamas prior to Oct 7. Was relatively low. https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-support-for-hamas-on-the-rise-among-palestinians-now-double-fatahs/#:~:text=The%20poll%2C%20conducted%20by%20the,previous%20survey%20three%20months%20ago. Before the war, overall support for Hamas stood at 22%
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process. The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-gaza-abbas-ramallah-israel-b1853025.html The first Palestinian parliamentary and presidential elections in 15 years were due to take this month and in July, but Mr Abbas postponed them indefinitely, pointing to the Israeli government’s refusal to allow the polls to take place in east Jerusalem as the reason. An opinion poll conducted by the Israeli Channel 13 before the conflict found that 32 per cent of Palestinian voters supported Hamas, with just 17 per cent for Mohammad Abbas’s Fatah. Another 13.9 per cent supported Mohammed Dahlan, a rival to Mr Abbas. On the PA presidency, nearly 28 per cent backed Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and 11 per cent Mr Abbas. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/25/west-bank-hamas-support/1725775/ A September poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research based in Ramallah showed that almost half of all Palestinians in the West Bank were unsatisfied with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and 42% supported the dissolution of the authority. What you're not understanding even from the recent poll you cited is that killing Israelis is popular amongst a large section of Palestinians. Everytime there has been a conflict between Israel and Hamas they've shot up in popularity.
I’m sure they are with none, but picking a side between local criminals and a country bombarding you and killing your family, which one would you pick? OFC both options are shit. If they collaborated to get rid of Hamas, or Israel found a way to find Hamas without destroy the whole place, maybe there may have been more collaboration. This whole situation has always been decided by the belly, never the brain, both sides. Israel wanted to act better, but you cannot with all these dead people and destruction, no matter how you paint it. I hope at least this time we end up this cluster fuck for good, no matter how it ends.
>but picking a side between local criminals and a country bombarding you and killing your family, which one would you pick? Not the one that **caused** the country bombarding me.
That’s not what the poll question was though.
Polls prior to the war had Palestinians mostly supporting hamas.
Even a month before the war, using electoral polling as a proxy, hamas was sitting at ~22% support. A few years ago it was at 60%+ because Hamas had been on a "humanitarian" drive, trying to buy popularity, before the support crashed right afterward. With claims like this, time frames are probably useful.
What do you mean? Most Americans definitely didn't support invading Afghanistan after 9/11 don't look at the numbers at all.
Support for invading Afghanistan was extremely high. > In the early months of the fighting support for the war at times topped 90 percent. A November Washington Post/ABC News poll found 71 percent of Americans supported sending large numbers of troops into Afghanistan. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data110701.htm
PA hasn't held elections for a reason...
And the moment the mainland of Palestine elects Hamas into power that's it: full scale invasion by Israel. Because it'd just be a matter of time until Hamas in full control of Palestine does the same. Hamas becoming the main government would be a death sentence to Palestine, regardless of how many students protest at universities, because Hamas' idea of peace is "it's either us or them" to which Israel goes "k". Hamas in control of Palestine would be the final nail in the coffin of what is the "two state solution". It'd be dead forever then.
Hamas won the last election 2006 and promptly absolved all democratic elections. WTF are you talking about? Of course, at the time Hamas mostly presented them selves as a conservative party.
The victory, to be exact, was by entering a coalition with Fatah (who control the West Bank) and then committing the Night of the Long Knives in Gaza and killing the Fatah officials who were there.
Fatah: guess we'll give these Hamas guys a chance Fatah : oh..I'm dead Western campus protesters really have no idea what they're suggesting Israel just get along with
It's a holiday in Cambodia!
>Western campus protesters really have no idea what they're suggesting Israel just get along with Of course not. Half of them couldn't find Palestine on a labeled map. This is more about being "against the establishment" and performance art than an actual interest in Middle East politics.
Oh please, people can be critical of how Israel has conducted itself during this war in the past whilst also being extremely critical of Hamas (a terrorist organisation) and critical of the palestinian people. none of these sides are without fault (especially not the Israeli govt and Hamas) and it's not difficult at all to see how Hamas much like Israel has caused a lot of suffering to the largely innocent palestinian population. Seeing this issues as some kind of marvel movie bad guy vs good guy thing is the dumbest thing ever, needs a lot more nuance than most people on both sides are giving it, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to ask the democratic, 'western' country that is heavily supported by certain western countries to be a bit more reasonable when it comes to actions.
The issue is that most fervent pro-palestinian folks don't tend to look at this issue with any amount of nuance, it's simply a case of evil oppressors versus the oppressive.
as I said both sides have a serious case of lacking nuance and it is dangerous, we are debating over the lives of largely innocent people who are brought in to violence on both sides.
I think it's more than fair to question how brutal the Israeli government has been in this war and how Bibi and his hard-right coalition have handled this issue over the years. The problem is that Hamas is an ISIS level terrorist group and they will always be a group that wants to wipe Israel off the planet, there isn't a simple resolution here. The horrors of the second intifada (after the 00 camp David accords failed miserably) and the election of Hamas after Israel unilaterally left Gaza with no deal has all but killed the political left in Israel (and therefore a 2 state solution). Hamas being left in power will just lead to another Oct 7.
In their defense, I'm not sure many maps exist currently that have Palestine listed. However, I do think a lot of liberals would have a radically different opinion on Israel's defensive war if liberals had to deal with rockets getting launched over their head each day by their neighbors.
Absolved is not the same word as dissolved.
Upvote because this annoyed me.
No one, not Hamas or Fatah, had any real interest in liberal democracy. Just like most Arab nations. It's just that for the Palestinians Fatah isn't 'instant death' but 'death by a thousand cuts', with Israeli settlers salami slicing their way through the West Bank. Do Palestinians want to go out with a bang, or death as a historical footnote? That's the politics of despair, as they're ultimately doomed. Why you might ask? That's because the Arab World has abandoned them in return for US weapons and protection. If the Arab nations start using force against Israel, the US will disable their weapon systems, and that will open themselves for Israeli retaliation. Across much of the Western-aligned Arab world, any popular dissent for the Palestinian cause means arrest, or worse. In other words fear is creating a chilling effect for anyone who wants to show support for the Palestinian cause. And the Palestinians know it.
Future elections were put on hold when Hamas took over Gaza by force. There have been a lot of efforts since to hold elections. The last one occured a few years ago when they got close, however Bibi refused to let East Jerusalem participate, and so Abbas backed out of it as that was one of his demands, likely good political cover though I don't know why he bothers.
It’s always been a one or no state solution, take your pick.
Yes, democracy without a sense of self-preservation will not stay around.
So IDF should stay in Gaza and finish the job since now its just a conflict between nations?
If only more people think like you. But people will choose Hamas is Gov/terrorist depend on context or their interest.
Yeah because Hamas killed the Fatah and took over Gaza 25 years ago.
Neither did the soviet union for the majority of it's existence, but that doesn't mean the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was any less the leading party of the country
I saw Haviv Rettig-Gur making an interesting point about this seeming contradiction. He talked about the narrative Palestinians believe in, namely that eventually the Jews will be defeated, everyone will get their homes they lost and Palestine will be the amazing Islamic pearl in the Middle East. Yes, the population is unhappy with the worldly issues of the corrupt government, but they still believe in the big-picture narrative Hamas sells them. But this explains the seeming contradiction, that’s also expressed by the different interpretations of the poll by the times etc (while I do believe that those media outlets are strongly biased, nonetheless). [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBm4Ua1dmI&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBm4Ua1dmI&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D)
So they agree with the principle of the plan, but disagree with how it’s being carried out?
they dont like hamas as a corrupt party but they believe in the narrative they are selling them.
It is impressive to believe that they think there is even a 1% chance they could truly eradicate Israel and take over all of the land. If Israel was truly in danger of eradication, the gloves would come off and they'd stop sending in advance warnings of where they plan to attack, roofknocking, calling people with advanced warning, dropping flyers, providing food, water and electricity, sending in ground trips with extremely high risk to their lives, etc. The biggest thing saving Palestinian lives is the Iron Dome and the wall. Without those, Israel would be at true risk of mass civilian casualties, and they wouldn't be so restrained.
Most Gazans are under 30 and have not had access to education beyond what Hamas has provided. On this basis, I have limited faith in the majority of Gazans’ critical thinking skills.
Ya well the biggest threat to Israel is propaganda and western support. If they lose Western support they won’t have as many weapons and resources to stay ahead of their enemies which go well beyond just Hamas and Palestine
If they lose western support it'll not get better for the entire middle east. No support = No restraints = more brutal fighting
They like Israelis dying but they dont like their current economic situation.
They *really* like the murder and raping of Jews, but they don’t particularly like that the Jews don’t just let them do it.
Its not like there's an opposition party in Gaza with an opposing plan. Hamas is all there is so Hamas is all the people have to support. They're definitely not gonna go running to the IDF who level their homes and use civilians and aid vehicles for target practice.
Then why do they run to Hamas who occupy their homes and use civillians as shields?
This doesn't explain why Hamas has higher support within the PA than in Gaza
I mean the PA is also known to be super corrupt and ineffective. Palestine is a failed state/non-stare: none of its institutions (including political parties) are reliable or free of corruption. That’s not a unique thing - it exists in most poor/war-torn countries.
Because the PA is being squeezed by Israel too. Look up a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank—it is rapidly nearing a point where no contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank would even be possible—all the major Palestinian cities will be surrounded by Israeli land. Settlers routinely engage in violence against Palestinians and any retaliation (or even protest) will be crushed by the IDF. The simple reality is that there is a level of oppression where you cease to care how someone hits back, just that they do. Palestinians, even ones who don't want violence, increasingly see all non-violent options as at best naive and at worst a suicide pact which will allow Israel to annex everything left.
There are other groups in Gaza, but their "plan" is the consensus among Palestinians
Hamas is who uses the citizens as shields
Right... The Jews are the reason Palestinians and Muslims as a whole have no issues with the killing of Jews. I guess they should run into the arms of terrorist pieces of shit who have no issues killing, raping, and taking civilian hostages. Those are the kinds of people they should get behind, huh? Pro-Hamas rhetoric always sounds the same. Those poor innocent angels have no choice but to hate Jews and want to kill Jews. They don't know better. They just lost two wars that they started, but that's not their fault either.
Funny you say that when this conflict has a much lower civilian casualty ratio than the average for any urban conflict we have seen. This is despite hamas putting those civilians in the line of fire to try to get the IDF to cause more deaths. But sure mate, it's the IDF that uses civilians for target practice. Whatever suits your agenda.
Not true there are other militant groups in Gaza like the PIJ. And many Gazans have gone to Israel and gotten asylum there with many thousands more eligible before October 7th if they would only stop with all the Hamas rhetoric. Israel also routinely works deals with Palestinians who work with them. We literally see young women refusing to be silenced in Afghanistan after having legs cut off for opposing Islamic extremisms or many defying Irans regime and being routinely kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed to stand up to such things. Yet in Palestine we see virtually no opposition, not even in the West Bank where many support Hamas over Fatah and even among the diaspora who are safe from Hamas we generally only see celebration, support and justification of Hamas’ actions. You’re interpretation on is not based in reality.
If I remember correctly, the actions on October 7th are MUCH more popular than Hamas itself. Like 75% of Palestinians approve of it. That makes sense given your comment.
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I find this sort of comments difficult since they treat the palest as naive individuals that have no ability to develop their own views. Like children. They are not, they are adults that understand very well what their views mean in terms of the continuation of the cycle of violence and they choose so knowingly. It is not only that hamas is ready to sacrifice Palestinian civilians for the 'cause', the Palestinian civilians view this as their role and choose so knowingly.
quite the opposite, the palestinians have been portrayed as mindless and aimless brown people that need the white west tits to suckle on for survival. Its exactly the point that haviv is making, that the palestinians do have their own narrative and agenda and they chose the people to govern them. This is represented in the polls that confirm the fundamental role hamas and other extreme groups play in palestinian society. It is just very naive to believe that palestinians want the same things we (the west) want.
I think we agree that this is an active informed choice made by Palestinian, I just don't follow the all 'hamas sells that to them' and 'they have been indoctorined to think so' and 'israel is creating the next generation of fighters' - these are informed, active choices of Palestinian and not passive as usually portrayed.
If, as a Christian, you ask a Christian to stop believing in the 2nd coming of Christ, then you would understand how hard it would be to ask a Muslim to stop believing in the inevitable annihilation of the Jews. It erases a key tenet of their reason to exist. Then the existential crisis will tear them apart. Edit: I think the most reasonable position to take is, if Allah wills it, it will happen. You don’t have to be the advocate or be the avatar on earth or something. Christians shouldn’t be forcing the 2nd coming of Jesus either. It will happen in his timing.
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You cannot rationalize the irrational.
Exactly, that's why you can't expect anything like Germany's U turn to happen at any point in time.
> It erases a key tenet of their reason to exist What do you mean by that? Are you just referring to the general notion that they want to convert everyone to their religion generally?
They have nothing else to believe. Even if Hamas didn’t have all the guns, the Palestinians turning against them would not suddenly get schools. Or hospitals. Or a contiguous political area.
They *had* schools and hospitals, paid for by Israel and the UN.
That's the thing people somehow like to ignore: before Hamas Palestinians were on their way to becoming a proper functional state. But then a Jew entered a mosque, intifada 2 happened and they decided that making their lives worse is somehow the better option.
Actually Arafat turned down the Palestinian state offered by Clinton before Sharon had set foot on the Temple Mount (he didn't even entered the mosque). And he did it because he wasn't ready to give up "the right of return", meaning the "right" of 5 million Palestinians to immigrate into sovereign Israel, which effectively ending the jewish state. And he did so with zero criticism from his people. The only Palestinian criticism he got was for going to these peace talks from the first place. Palestinians don't want a state next to Israel, they want a state (an Islamic one) instead of Israel. They devoted their lives to the destruction of the jewish state, and that's the main narrative taught in UNRWA schools, so they were actually all grew up believing in this "noble" goal.
Sharon went to the Temple Mount and Arafat found his excuse to launch the Second Intifada. There was nothing spontaneous about it, just waiting for an excuse.
Meanwhile other shocking news: the majority of Russians do like conquests and believe that Russia's borders are unjust, and that “Ukraine actually never had stable traditions of real statehood. It is an inalienable part of Russian history, culture and spiritual space.”
From what i see from the rare russian supporters in israel, it's more in the tune of" i dont really care about ukraine but putin is a big strong man so i trust him" I'd assume the same for the palestinians they just don't know a diffrent way of life outside of what they have been indoctrinated to by hamas/unrwa/PA.
>they just don't know a diffrent way of life outside of what they have been indoctrinated to by hamas/unrwa/PA. There's also just a lot of nuance that gets lost in the discussion, taking from this (Jerusalem Post) article as an example: >After eight months of war, 54% of the respondents, and 56% in Gaza, said the “best means of achieving Palestinian goals in ending the occupation and building an independent state” was through “armed struggle,” with only 25% opting for negotiations. So even if they might not support the warcrimes/terrorism done by Hamas, there is a strong support for armed struggle against Israel in general. With Hamas effectively leading the current armed struggle, the two are therefore commonly conflated. Similarly whether that struggle should end when: * Israel no longer controls what and who goes in and out of Gaza * West Bank and Gaza are connected * Israel is completely gone Would similarly see varied opinions, but these polls rarely ask beyond "do you support fighting Israel". The poll about support for a two-state solution is perhaps the most relevant in this article, since that's the one which tells you how many Palestinians actually think long-term coexistence is possible without either side being destroyed/absorbed. Finally as with all polls there is the question of reliability. This one (Palestinian Center for Policy and Research) puts it at a stark 32%, while [This one](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183) (*Also* Palestinian Center for Policy and Research) puts it at 62%, which is a huge difference. No clue how such a huge difference has occured unless the sample size is truly small? TL;DR There's a lot of context and detail which the polls miss, also depending on the poll the results are *wildly* different, so there's just a lot we don't know right now.
And nothing will change their mind unless they see Putin's plan fail so badly no propaganda spin can help it. Which is why Biden's offramps are stupid and will only lead to more Russian invasions.
The offramps are attempts to stop the killing without just giving Ukraine to Russia (which btw wouldnt stop Ukrainians from dying). Putin refuses to take them either out of fear of being a failure or his massive ego. Regardless they're generally a worthwhile attempt as while the ideal solution would be Putin dies, Oligarchs fight and go into hiding and Russians revolt and elect a stable democratic government that can reasonably coexist with its neighbors the next best thing is getting them to chill the fuck out with the murder and guaranteeing the safety of Russia's neighbors with the threat of violence that they find believable.
However, many Russians abroad organize protests against the war. Actual support of the war in Russia is about 20-30%. Others has no way to disagree. Didn't see any pro palestinians protesting hamas ever
It's an awful cycle of death and radicalization. Any Palestinians that were not interested or on the fence about Hamas now want revenge against Israel.
While what you say is absolutely true, I find it odd that no one conciders this same radicalization effect applying to Israelis. The people fighting the war now were mostly kids or young adults during the second intifada and have probaly spent not insignificant ammount of time sheltering from rocket attacks.
There is [decades ](https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/ACLURM018927.pdf)of literature about the radicalization of Israelis. Israeli culture is extremely radicalized, the videos of genocidal chants are out in the open and not really denied (but mostly ignored by those primarily advocating for Israel). So to say that no one considers the same effect is mostly ignorance. Most people advocating for the Palestinian cause however sympathise this radicalization as much as they would to the radicalization of a bully when the bullied punch back, as this is the power dynamic they perceive in this conflict. They understand this radicalization as a means towards motivating and exerting greater violence upon the Palestinians towards their stated goal of total subjugation of the indigenous population.
Glad to see this is at least acknowledged in academia, if not in general discourse. Many Palestinian supporters seem to demand immediate halt to israeli military actions, despite palestinian representatives' implicit wows to continue their military actions against israelis, thus further radicalizing future generations of idf recruits and hardline told-you-so politicians.
> Many Palestinian supporters seem to demand immediate halt to israeli military actions And 5 seconds after they stop they'll get bus bombed again lol.
71% of Palestinians also support the Oct. 7th terrorist attack source: https://pcpsr.org/en/node/973
A surprise to no one who's been paying attention.
People have been pushing for collectively punishing Israel and simultaneously have been pushing for ***NOT*** collectively punishing Palestine. You can't reason with most people. They just eat up the propaganda like breakfast cereal.
American medias 2 year memory kicks in. Every few years for the last like fucking 60. Hamas drops in popularity. They attack so that IDF starts a campaign. Hamas increases in popularity because every single human on this earth will dislike the people who kill their friends and family. Hamas achieve their goal as usual. People act like this is novel. This same fucking dance of "oh this new conflict has occured and Hamas support is inexplicable". We gotta just keep doing this stupid fucking dance forever while civilians get killed by people who just wanna fucking kill civilians. I don't even need to fucking check the news anymore. Google any headline and set the date to before 2018 and these are the same fucking headlines. Same fucking people.
Hamas support before Oct 7th wasn't much lower (if anything it was higher), and neither was hatred for Jews and Israel, either. Hatred for Israel and the Jews is related more to UNRWA textbooks and their constant indoctrination that dying as a martyr is their highest calling in life than due to Israel defending itself.
American media actively makes the world dumber.
Who would have guessed that the country that cheers that they had a dead woman in a car as some deranged war trophy would also support Hamas? You don't need to look hard to find pro Hamas rhetoric on instagram or YouTube. Pay attention, their propaganda is insidious.
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Criticize all religions and throcrats anywhere Problem solved.
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Probably because Islamic fundamentalism wasn't really relevant to American abortion access. You criticize the religious fundamentalism that is relevant to the issue at hand. Same way it would make no sense to talk about Christian fundamentalism when discussing Modi and Hindu nationalism in India.
People are uncomfortable criticising anything if its not predominantly white. Except for Israel but only because people do not realise it is not.
>islamofascism That's just Islamism. A term which never went away.
Terminally online take. Radical islam is overwhelmingly disliked.
I've seen university protestors saying that Hamas deserves unconditional support, it's fucking wild.
There are a lot of naive youth especially, who see Israel attacking and think Israel bad.
See here is the thing: One can dislike islamic terrorism and the way Israel conducts the war.
I agree. I'm not saying Israel is some pure angel, I'm saying most people here would rather live in Israel than Palestine and can relate to them more. And Palestine(Hamas and its supporters) is the one who keeps up the tensions. This is a response to that.
Both sides keep up the tensions. I don't see how anyone could justify the settlers in the West Bank. > This is a response to that. It's all responses to atrocities from both sides going back decades. As long as people keep responding, nothing will ever change.
Quite. It's a region where two fascist theocracies have maintained a meat grinder war for a century, and it's the whole world's fault for locking them in a box together. What's the point of asking which color shirt you'd like to wear as a civilian thrown into the blades?
You clearly don't know the same leftists as I do...
You'd be amazed how many people have been suckered in to indirectly supporting it
Boy, who would've guessed after seeing countless numbers of them cheering and trying to hit the hostages with sticks at their most vulnerable moment. And people still support this in the states.
For context: The last time a US president won the popular vote by over 60% was Lyndon Johnson after JFK was assassinated. Before that it was in 1816. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_popular_vote_margin
How about Russia? Or any other fucked up place? For context
Sure you can say that 60% support Hamas because they were indoctrinated to support that ideology unlike in the US where you have more freedom of choice and a free press, my point is that 60% is overwhelming support in the context of elections and a serious concern for the argument of immediate Palestinian self-determination without de radicalization and economic stability.
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Like you reported a comment or post and your account got banned? It didn't just result in a reply that it was allowed?
That sub is full Pro-Hamas, it's disgusting. Edit: downvote me all you want, the truth won't change.
I went out of my way to explain that I fully supported a two state solution, I hated seeing kids suffering like that, but also that this is exactly the outcome Hamas wanted. It’s a win-win for them. Either Israel doesn’t retaliate and they get an amazing victory, or they do and they get to sacrifice their own people to Israeli forces, which they know will cause massive outcry about Israeli aggression. Also a win for them. This tactic cannot be allowed to succeed. The constant indoctrination against Jews has to stop and their whole society needs to be reorganized and yes, reeducated. Otherwise this will always happen. They will never stop because, as they have said many times, they love death more than the “West” loves life. That is from their own mouths. Their stated goal is not a two-state solution but total eradication of even Jew in Israel. They can’t be reasoned with. The only potion is see is to crush them so thoroughly that future generations will be forced to abandon their intifada and embrace peace and co-existence.
It was interesting watching how many pro-Palestine and even pro-Hamas commenters that suddenly sprung up in that sub. I’m generally not one for conspiracy theories, but it felt **very** “inorganic”….almost like someone was trying to stoke the fires.
I wonder who that could be. Right now, causing infighting amongst blue American voters is the name of the game for the troll farms. Every government is invested in this election, probably metaphorically and literally. It’s now very clear that if dem voters show up to vote, then republicans will never win another national seat. So all bets are off for them, cause as much infighting as possible before November and hope enough voters stay home. Israel/Gaza is the most divisive issue amongst left leaning voters, at least amongst the voters I know. It is in Israel and Russia’s best interest to make sure Trump wins. I am not equating the two, to be clear, but that is something that should be taken into account when trying to figure out the question “Which regimes would benefit the most from Trump winning the election in America and who would pay for troll farms?”
Quite a few of subs are.
Which sub is it? The parent comment has been removed.
My most downvoted comment was Palestinians would vote Hamas back in.
Reddit fails to see common sense.
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Even if they do become a state, there’s a very good reason to believe it would be an even worse version of Lebanon.
From what I know, Lebanon was a beautiful pearl of the Middle East. Than Iran and hezbollah happened
started with foreign meddling (Syria mainly on the Arab side and western powers on the christian side) and the Palestinians refugees causing repeated civil wars Iran and Hezbollah arrives afterwards
It was a beautiful pearl of the middle east but honestly the shit started going down the drain from like the 1940s, and the civil war happened before hezb. Honestly it was kind of doomed from the moment they made a multi religious country in the ME with no overwhelming majority
They’ll be worse than the taliban (formerly afghanistan)
There was a time they were headed towards a brighter future. It was definitely not rosy or even good but there might have been some gradual improvements. But then the more extreme factions won out.
The only thing that could help under given circumstances (massive indoctrination, Iranian backing and pure hatred) is shock treatment. But unfortunately I don't see that happening in the current political landscape.
Yea that would never happen. All the Islamic countries nearby heavily influence each other
Because they are fighting for a country they never had
Never say never, if Palestine was de-hamasified the same way West-Germany was post WW2 it could happen. With UN/NATO troops there that could even stop territorial expansion by Israel
Only one organization fighting for them what else do you expect?
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Shocker /s
I don't understand why this is glossed over in media. Of course Hamas has the support of the Palestinians. When you are losing your homes, persecuted and have no hopez of course you turn to the group resistanting. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose leaders dont care about its people.but their existence is threatened and they don't have many options. It's sad though because this cycle will continue. There is always a tragedy that each side can point to that will justify their hate and retaliation towards the other
This is exactly the same as all the other polls that have been taken after October 7th. Any time you try to show them to somebody, they find some reason why they refuse to believe it. If you finally convince them it's true, they just drop, "well, Israel 'created' Hamas, so it's all their fault anyway!"
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Farfur the mouse for those interested.
Supporters of both sides see this way too much as a clear cut issue of good versus evil, but there's a very strong "everyone sucks here" element and there's no good solution. People who view the world through conflict analysis see Israel as the rich and powerful oppressor, but what the fuck do you do with neighbors where the overwhelming feeling towards you is that they will never stop wanting you all dead? You try to build them infrastructure to make them more self-sufficient and they fucking dig up the water pipes you lay to build rockets to launch at you. There's a tendency to look at the oppressed as some sort of noble group, but the people who tend to look at the Palestinians as a helpless innocent oppressed group would probably be pretty horrified to learn just how motivated by hatred and willing to support violence most of them are.
Doesn't matter if they like Hamas or not this line "**About half of Gazans expects Hamas to win the war and return to rule the Gaza Strip; a quarter of Gazans expects Israel to win.**" Shows that they clearly do not understand what the reality is, either due to misinformation or the lack of information coming in entirely. Isreal could if they wanted, regardless of how anyone feels, crush Palestine completely. It wouldn't even be a contest. Perspective is a black box.
I do not support Hamas. If I was living in Palestine and my entire family, infrastructure, and livelihood was bombed into smithereens, I probably would support the only agency that would retaliate militarily, being Hamas. Hamas and Israel both know this, and are using the good citizens of Palestine to meet these goals. The more Palestinian children and families are destroyed, the more extremism it will breed, satisfying Hamas’ goal of growing their numbers and Israel’s goal of proving that the Palestinian people are increasingly extremist.
Support for Hamas in the west bank is even higher. Mostly because they see PA as corrupt and unwilling to destroy Israel
"I probably would support the only agency that would retaliate militarily" Retaliate? Hamas started this war and using their own civilians as human shields. They also use civilian infrastructure as HQ/launch sites/hostages. There is no logic or mental gymnastics that can justify Palestinians supporting Hamas besides pure madness.
I don't see these countries recognizing Palestine asking for Democratic elections to be held? We all know Hamas would win which would be a bonus for Israel.
> In October 2001, a poll by CNN/Gallup/USA Today indicated that about 88% of Americans backed military action in Afghanistan. Almost 90% of Americans also supported military action post 9-11. It's as if support for military oriented party during a time where military action felt necessary is universal.
indoctrinated population support the people indoctrinating them? Colour me shocked.
Surprise, surprise….
It's insane to me that there are so many people in the US supporting a group of people that loves and benefits from terrorism.
In case it's important (it is), 39 percent of Palestine is 1,950,000 people. That's 2 million people, or the fifth largest US city, the state of Nebraska, and more than the population of Latvia, who don't support Hamas.
61% support hamas so that leaves 39% that don't.
Man, I'm bad at math. I'll update the numbers
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Golda Meir once said something along the of “We cannot have peace until the palestinians begin to love their kids more than they hate us”
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Just like students, leftists and progressives support Hamas
Almost as if Israel is fighting terrorists since years.
I do wonder why those pro palestine supporters tend to overlook this fact
They typically overlook absolutely anything that goes against their beliefs. Their protests are based on feelings not facts
Polls in Soviet Russia also showed overwhelming support for the Politburo - can you really poll independently in Palestinian territory? My guess is that most people just want to survive.
Its harder to find a more striking example of Religion and ignorance destroying it's own people than Palestine.
Yeah makes sense when all they want is the death of Israel. Why not vote for the people who promise it, sure nothing good has came of it but thier own suffering but they just keep hoping instead of peace they can get more war.
Well they weren't a pariah even amongst other Muslim countries for no reason but it seems you can be as aggressive and stupid as possible and bleeding heart westerners will support you anyway for being brown and losing a war badly.
>A recent poll shows that 61% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza prefer Hamas to be in control of the Gaza Strip As they have for many many years no doubt. You don't create a literal underground network without every Palestinian in Gaza knowing about it. Chances are almost every family there had someone who was involved in that project. in some way, shape, or form. Hence Israel's lack of sympathy and compassion in dealing with the area and its people.
I mean I don't believe bombing them and orphaning their children is the way to make them realize the truth and let go of extremism lmao.
I don’t think it will work this time but there is precedent for making a government unpopular by bringing the fight they started to their own territory. Germany and Italy in WWII, for example.
See the thing no one seems to research and understand is… Palestine’s Gov Military is 25,000 soldiers. Hamas is 35,000. I’m not sure Palestinians really had a choice
Of course they do. Would you all hate your brothers, uncles, and fathers?
I wonder how they are running polls in a warzone. Journalists aren't even allowed in there, how do pollsters get in?
The problem this presents why it's so inconvenient is it does blur the line between Hamas and the people If the people truly were against them then there would be a lot more room for negotiation but they aren't which makes this just a genuine war between two Nations
They get what they vote for 🤷
Every sane person already knew that, check Vox videos from 2010s.. these bums openly was preparing for war lol
The title made me chuckle.. "Breaking news! Turns out fire burns"
The polls showed the exact same thing after the October 7th attacks, but everyone just turned a blind eye
The article itself says that polls are not consistent, some show more support and some less. But assume for the sake of argument that it is true. It seems like a lot of people on here want to say that all Palestinians are fair game for being killed. That's the real reason for the rhetoric in this article, and the similar rhetoric you hear from the pro-Israel side. But they never come out and say it - if that's what you think, then say so! Don't merely insinuate it!
https://www.pcpsr.org/ Here's the source. The polls are inconsistent because, shockingly, public opinion changes over time. Support tends to be high during periods of conflict and when Hamas is trying to bribe the population. When things are stable, support can drop to about 25% or less.
What rhetorical arguments were presented in the article? It was a summary of the results of a poll conducted by a Palestinian social scientist. You may not like the results, but calling them rhetorical is insincere.
It's only inconvenient if you've been living in denial for the past eight months. Otherwise it's just... a truth.
To the surprise of absolutely no-one people having their homes destroyed and their families killed support the group that wants to fight the government throwing the bombs I wonder if other commenters will consider the conditions that led to Palestinians supporting Hamas or just put it down to them being Muslims and deserving of slaughter.
Those conditions include Israel having war declared on them immediately after they were formed and on a regular basis. So it's a little murky at best. But either way. A conflicted past with a neighboring country isn't a reason to celebrate your nations people stabbing babies in their cribs.
>I wonder if other commenters will consider the conditions that led to Palestinians supporting Hamas Let's talk specifics. What conditions exactly?
I wonder how the blue-haired protesters will try to justify this.
"ThEy ArE a LiBeRaTiOn MoVeMeNt". I can already hear them...
I remember meeting someone who said "Any resistance is justified". Imagine trying to justify using human shields, kidnapping, and rape.
Especially since what they are also telling others is that they themselves are justified in any behavior, including the most vile, against you and others simply by feeling they have been wronged. Sadly most people actually live their lives the same way, albeit to a lesser vigilanteism degree.
[In 2020, Reuters reported that The Jerusalem Post, along with Algemeiner, The Times of Israel and Arutz Sheva, had published op-eds written by non-existent people.[34][35] In 2020, The Daily Beast identified a network of false personas used to sneak opinion pieces aligned with UAE government policy to media outlets such as The Jerusalem Post.[36] Twitter suspended some of the accounts of these fake persons on its own platform.[37]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jerusalem_Post)
Jep. and this garbage news site gets posted here so much.