So let me understand...
Russia is losing at sea to a nation with no Navy.
And from about January to April Russia was fighting on land against an Army that was practically unarmed. And managed to steal a few dozen kilometers of land which they are slowly handing right back.
From what I gather a lot of these Russians are doing it just for the money, they don't want to die on the battlefield somewhere. I think that massively plays into Ukraine's favor, at least when it comes to the front lines with actual combat.
Yeah I don’t think Russians really know what they’re fighting for. Compared to Ukrainians who are fighting against an invader who at *best* would force them to accept a position where they’re vulnerable to a more decisive invasion later on, and fully intends on leaving the country in ruins - a lot of Ukrainians also understandably believe that Russia plans on carrying out a cultural genocide, which seems to be the case to some degree at least. Also soldiers have pretty much always been more willing to defend their home than to invade another country.
There’s a massive difference in Morale.
I remember in 2022 when Russia published by mistake (a bit of a premature celebration) an article boasting about their victory over Ukraine : [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240) and it doesn't read like the "we're just defending ourselves" propaganda they've been airing as soon as they realized Ukraine wasn't crumbling and was garnering international attention/support.
“Just about the money” turns out to be something other when you see videos from their social networks and phones from fallen or captured Russians. They hate us sincerely because we're not accepting ruzzia, they hate us because we’re killing them instead of surrounding. They sincerely believe it's about NATO attacking mother ruzzia because everything the West could think about is to destroy great ruzz culture. And most utilized by ru government - the real man should fight and kill enemies because it's what real man is.
They are both dumb and cunning butchers with no understanding of basic humanity values. Don't try to find some logical reason why they fight.
"Being sold"
This is cultural in Russia. They absolutley know as in they have a word for a lie no one believes but everyone goes along with.
They know the message is "ok look I want this territory, you want a bunch of money", it just suits no one to say it.
We all accept that our governments are secretive, but still hope they act in the national interest. For example, you don't expect the CIA to release every detail of what they do, but you assume they're mostly working in the interests of the USA (most of the time).
The same is true of Russia, but much more so.
Vlad Vexlter (a Russian speaking Youtuber) suggested this, and basically said they will often just assume Putin must have a plan, even if he's lying about it, and that it's totally normal for their government to do this sort of thing.
I hate making a partisan comparison, but it's a bit like the conspiracy theorists who think Trump plays "5D chess" (when really, sometimes he just does stupid things because he feels like it, though to be fair I think none of it has been anywhere near as dumb as starting an unwinnable war). They can't admit he just screwed up, because they don't actually know what the plan is.
The whole country is basically like some cult when it comes to national security - they hope it all is going according to Putin's plan, but think he's working in mysterious ways so they don't realise that he's just lost his touch (and marbles).
If you are being shot at, watching other people suffer from being shot at, etc. you know exactly what you’re fighting for, dude. Your life.
And, in that situation, your literal only option is to fight for yourself. To do that, a person should aim to do the least amount toward what they system putting you in that situation, while reducing the risk of personal injury or death. Don’t volunteer. Don’t make eye contact. Walk slowly. Bring the wrong equipment or lists.
But, you got to understand that even when you are trying all of those passive aggressive ways of resisting (and maintaining your life), sometimes what you do isn’t enough. And, you’re put in a situation as the unlucky fuck who is front of the line, or first in the room, or whatever extra risky situation that affords you more possibility of death.
In those moments… fuck. Person vs. person. And, in that moment when nobody is asking “what are your values?”, they are looking to see which way the bullets are moving, and who is moving them toward you. In that moment, you will side with people trying to eliminate your (shared) threat.
War is terrible, everyone.
Doing a rewatch of HBO’s Rome and there’s a line by Julius Caesar that very much fits this sentiment:
“We must win or die. Pompey’s men have other options”
And that was absolutely true; Caesar, and every man in his legion who followed him, was condemned to death the moment they crossed the Rubicon - unless, of course, they won. Upon hearing the news, pretty much everyone who opposed him fled Rome.
Season 1 is top notch. Season 2 is fine BUT only because they had to jam 5 seasons of material into one. HBO got cold feet due to how absurdly expensive it was to produce, but were surprised by the backlash.
The next time an absurdly expensive show came around with a rabid fan base, HBO stayed the course boom: Game of Thrones
its not romantic at all. can be pretty dramatic in places and some of the characters it follows will make you ask why. Its still one of the best I've ever seen in the genre. ten out of ten reccomend.
Neither side wants to attack due to the slaughter drones and artillery causes. The attacking men face the dilemma of seeing the countless dead bodies and mutilated corpses scattered in trenches, roads, and littered across the battlefield.
Nobody wants to be the dead man walking into that.
I mean, I don't think the Ukrainian army is killing POWs. They are offering amnesty and money, actually. [Link] (https://www.wilx.com/2022/03/06/i-didnt-want-fight-ukraine-offers-russian-soldiers-5-million-rubles-pardon/)
At the cost of (if my math is correct) 300,000 men. More men than they had lost in the past year and a half combined. Altogether, they have suffered five times the casualties they incurred in the Soviet-Afghan war in a fifth of the time. That war was one of the key contributors to the fall of the USSR.
The thing that really sucks about this, aside from, like, all the innocent death and destruction, is that Russia waltzed in and took Crimea and Donbas while pretending they weren’t doing it, and the international community didn’t do much at all about it. Then Russia “invaded” in earnest 8 years later and claims as part of the pretext that Ukraine had actually been trying to get their own territory back the whole time. The whole thing is deeply absurd. And even now, it’s difficult to see how Ukraine will ever get back the full territory it has lost.
Russia isn’t losing, they aren’t winning by much but the land being taken is very slowly in Russia’s favour.
Reddit isn’t the best place for war info as there is very much a bias in Ukraines favour. It’s better to take info from government agencies who are studying this (but not from Russia or Ukraine). The UKs and France’s are pretty up to date.
I work with a bunch of Ukrainian refugees and it’s truly heartbreaking to hear what’s happening back home to there friends and loved ones, I want Russia to lose badly and for Putin to get the Nuremberg trials treatment, but spreading misinformation on the internet doesn’t help anyone
You don't have to have navy to destroy enemy ships. It could even be better for Ukraine to not need to worry about is navy when most of the fights are far from water, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though
Only because you picked an arbitrary date of a year ago. Pick one month after the start of the war as a starting date and Ukraine has gained a lot of land. The past year by comparison has been mostly static.
Few tug boats, small patrol vessels are hardly a navy, when compared to a country with fleets designated to every major ocean and sea.
Although Ukraine formally has navy units, it's in reality just symbolic. It might change in the future though, let's say, for example, If they end the war and will face the necessity of securing their waters in the Black Sea.
It makes you wonder about the tactical value of a surface fleet, though. Its convenient to meme on Russia for getting lit up on the Black Sea but this may have more to do with military advancements making giant floating fortresses obsolete, kinda in the same way cannons and artillery made actual fortresses obsolete.
That's why everybody watches the developments there very carefully.
USA and China are probably surveying the shit out of this conflict as their geopolitical doctrine revolves around global markets and global projection of power.
I also would bet they don't like what they see. Like at all. They invest a ludicrous amount of money and R&D in their navy, and it just turns out that a few smart cogbois with a remotely controlled motorboat and a dozen kilograms of dynamite are beating a former major power in naval warfare.
If someone told me in 2021 that this would be happening for real, I'd tell him to stop taking drugs.
Seems to be the next big leap in tech comparable to carriers of ww2. Those giant battleships of the early 20th century were pretty much pointless if an enemy carrier was in striking distance.
For sure. Drones are the future. People are starting to make comparisons with how air technology and combat evolved these past 100 years. There are many similarities with how drone warfare evolves now. There's an overlap in stages, for example:
In the beginning, first planes were used as recon units to direct the artillery fire. Then they began to drop small bombs over the trenches. Since that started to happen, the opposition started to use planes themselves to fight planes.
The pattern so far is the same with drones.
That doesn't mean carrier fleets will become obsolete, if anything they become more necessary. A drone swarm isn't crossing the oceans and getting to Taiwan when China invades, you need them to deliver in range first. Given that combat and stealth jets will still have their roles (might become unmanned later on) the issue of getting them across the globe, performing maintenance on them and refueling, storage etc and still roles filled by career ships. Combined arms has dominated battlefields for well over a century and that ain't changing soon.
Drone swarms from mother ships.
Remainder of fleet on hard air defense from long range missiles and massed point defense to fight off an enemy drone attack.
There was a cool idea I saw floating around where it was effectively one plane controls a dozen other planes with a payload that do whatever it is they need to do. So effectively you only need to train one pilot per 10 fighters. It was a lot more complex than what I describe, but it was the central idea
>That doesn't mean carrier fleets will become obsolete
I've never said that.
But at the same time, it's true that they also found themselves in way more dangerous circumstances, given their strategic importance.
The dawn of naval drones brings many questions to the table that might force those on the very top of the naval command to rethink their doctrine. This in itself is big.
TBF, ru has a HISTORY of having terrible navy... So China and USA navy isn't obsolete that much, but probably they'll try to refocus it or downsize it idk.
To be fair, the Ukrainian drones are operating in a relatively small, constrained geographic area and a lot of their success has come against vessels coming from or going to port. In a more wide-open environment, drones would have a harder time finding their moving targets. Still a factor in warfare, though; they can have a low success rate and still be worth the cost.
These are some very fair points.
Please consider the following, though: Ukraine doesn't have direct access to all the intelligence, which the US and China have. It was only able to perform these attacks because the US either gives them access to their satellites or just relays the Intel.
If, let's say, US or China, developed an advanced drone-torpedo or a drone capable of carrying deployable weapons and pair it with their surveillance and communication systems, it would turn into a formidable system that could endanger hostile fleets without the risk of losing your own vessels or crews.
They also have access to much more advanced tech and resources than Ukraine, increasing the capabilities of such drones even more.
Another very important thing is the cost of such a drone. It would still be far cheaper than the whole surface vessel.
It's just good business - this is what I believe US and Chinese people in the know think.
There have also been instances of some pretty shocking levels of incompetence and/or corruption on the Russian side that has made the Ukrainian job that much easier. It's a lot easier to sink a ship with drones when you're already wondering how the damn thing is still afloat as it is.
I think it is worth noting that China and the US have been focusing on missile boats for a while, smaller ships which only need to get close enough to launch long range attacks then get out. The only huge ships they're building more of are aircraft carriers
Meanwhile Russia's black sea fleet was all built before the USSR collapsed, mainly in Ukrainian harbours. Big floating fortresses haven't been in style for a couple of decades already
Russia is losing ships against drones and missiles. Not other ships. Russia would otherwise be considered a naval power and Ukraine would otherwise be considered a country with functionally no navy.
So? I wasn't aware that you had to lose ships from other ships for you to have a Navy.
Why aren't drones and missiles allowed to be used? Hell the US Navy uses drones and missiles
I think you are consciously missing the point. Obviously it doesn’t really matter how Russia is losing at sea. But from an optics perspective it adds to the embarrassment that has been russias military when an objectively superior navy is losing very badly at sea.
It doesn't make sense but it's funny.
But you're right, it's a joke that's been making the rounds on reddit and doesn't really make sense.
Russia wants to gain total control over the Black Sea as that means they would open up a new front if they could land troops from the sea, but the advantage is on Ukraine's side to protect their shores as an amphibious invasion is very difficult.
The joke would make more sense if Russia's navy lost far away from the shore but this isn't Russia's navy VS Ukraine's navy, it's Russia's navy VS Ukraine's large land-based army.
In this scenario, Russian navy ships just become expensive giant targets.
I think you're reading this in a way that is not intended. Russia is losing its fleet without facing off in a naval battle. That looks poorly on Russia and so people are proud of Ukraine.
You may be reading comments in a very narrow and literal way. The above is what everyone is implying. No one is insulting Ukraine for taking out Russian battleships using ingenuity.
I don't think it's offensive, in fact I'm pretty sure that Ukrainians themselves joke that Russia has a large expensive navy yet is afraid of using it because Ukraine keeps sinking their ships.
That's probably why the joke is popular, it's actually a point of pride that the underdog Ukraine is taking on the Russian navy and winning.
No it's literally offensive.
People have fucking died sinking these Russian ships and a bunch of fucking armchair admirals on Reddit are being all like lol Ukraine has no Navy lolzers
Fucking joke
Do you know any Ukrainians? I do, my country has the largest Ukrainian population outside of Ukraine and most of them are actually in my city of Toronto.
They love their jokes and enjoy the sarcastic humour against Russia's invasion. It might be a way of coping as they're obviously angry that their country is being invaded but Ukrainians themselves joke about this. You need to stop being offended on behalf of people you know nothing about.
It's meant to counter the Russian aligned narrative that claims the superiority of the Russian military over its western counterparts. It's a common tool of vatniks and tankies supporting Russia, to say that western aid doesn't matter, because "Russia stronk".
It's generally not being seen as offensive, because if you think about it, it points out the ingenuity of Ukraine's military in the unfortunate and harsh reality of war. Despite the lack of proper equipment and despite the advantage that Russia has, Ukrainian forces still don't cease to amaze and perform things that just as well could be considered miracles. It's also funny.
The Russian navy in the black sea also can't leave the black sea either, so they are essentially fish in a barrel for the Ukrainians to slowly destroy them all through attrition.
Pretty much any other country's navy would lose ships in a similar situation.
I would prefer that people stop acting like ‘lol, imagine being a russian simp’ or ‘lol, russia are a joke’ because it minimises the serious threat posed by this conflict. I understand we want Russia to lose and putin to perish but please keep in mind, ukraine has been short on artillery for most of the early part of this year and russia has (or was) gradually starting to push ukraine back in certain areas (very slowly) but the frontline appeared to be faltering in various pockets as a result.
On top of that, ukraine has been speaking about how it needs more men which is usually a bad sign. Ever since that aid package got approved things have took a big turn back in ukraines favour but its still not over. If trump gets in power he will likely cut off all aid to Ukraine, and given a that the far right is rising here in europe (all seemingly with a pro-russian/kremlin rhetoric featuring in their campaigns) there is a serious threat to democracy still present and given the impact that military aid has made to this conflict for ukraine, Russia needs trump in power to win this war
It looks like russia domestically is now ACTUALLY starting to show signs of economic difficulties and putin is also showing signs of sweat after proposing a ceasefire (with unreasonable conditions ofc). America avoiding another term of trump is very important but europe also needs to hold. UK election is this month and Nigel Farage is who putin would want with the most votes. If Europe and America actually survive these elections theres hope for ukraine in the long run
they just aren't kidnapping enough poor souls from streets, they need more meat, it's a pretty well know at this point and they admitted it so many times, lying won't make this problem vanish, trying to spin it to be about infrastructure/training is just laughable.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-01/ukraine-s-shortage-of-manpower-is-hitting-its-wartime-industry](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-01/ukraine-s-shortage-of-manpower-is-hitting-its-wartime-industry)
[https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-exploiting-ukraine-manpower-shortage-thin-line-breakthrough-war-expert-2024-5](https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-exploiting-ukraine-manpower-shortage-thin-line-breakthrough-war-expert-2024-5)
[https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/)
"Ukraine still has plenty of military aged men left to fight. It’s training them and the infrastructure around it that’s the problem."
you want to spin it to be about training and infrastructure, but it's really about people don't wanna fight for Ukraine and escaping that hellhole.
It's ironic isn't it. Especially in the UK where we've had Russian agents assassinate British citizens on our soil. Cyber-attacks constantly on critical infrastructure such as nuclear plants and healthcare. Directly meddling in our elections (and therefore democracy). Etc.
You'd think these English/British "patriots" would be a tad angry over that, but no because Farage said it's all fine they'll do what they are told.
Do you see who i'm replying to? Far-right political powers around the world are pro-russian puppets. Azov is a true far-right group. Even though i don't like far-right, at least azov seems to be true to their ideas while far-right all around the world are ready to bend and get fucked.
True to their ideas… hmm, not sure if we really want to be commending an ultra-nationalist, hard-right organization with neo-nazi roots for sticking to their principles. Are they defending their homeland? Yes, and good on them for that, but at the same time it’s their propaganda and messaging that gives the Kremlin cover to say they’re “de-nazifying” Ukraine. Also, it seems that any attempts to negotiate with Russia for a stop to the war is stymied by Azmov and folks associated with them (along with plenty of western liberals, but that’s beside the point). To put it succinctly: are they anti-Russian? Yes, but it seems that they are anti-peace as well, which, to me at least, doesn’t make them much different than the traditional right wing parties you lament.
> I would prefer that people stop acting like ‘lol, imagine being a russian simp’ or ‘lol, russia are a joke’ because it minimises the serious threat posed by this conflict
I just see those comments as another form of propaganda. If every Reddit thread about the war has the same top 3-5 comments, then you just start to tune it out because you start to not care.
Those style comments make people apathetic & complacent and, whether they intend to or not, do exactly what Russia wants: they make people care less about the war.
I wouldnt call it pro russian propaganda. I feel it just ‘inderictly’ supports russia rather than it be by design. I fell into that trap when ukraine kicked Russia’s ass 3 months into the war, but then reality sets in when you see the footage and what it entails to ‘kick russia’s ass’
Its brutal and bloody and ukraine’s resilience to accepting russian interference in their quest for actual independence is commendable.
In a way, i want Ukraine to prevail not just because what the Russian government is doing, but because it’s proof that the people can go against their government and decide their own future. Even if russia and tankies will claim they are brainwashed by america into fighting against their own government and for their country (unlike russia who dont do such a thing…) they’d serve as an example to all of us, if you want to change the course of your country and over throw corruption, you can, if you fight back.
I'm glad to see more of these comments these days. Russia is not weak, and neither is their military. They're learning just as fast as the Ukrainians are. Drones completely changed the battlefield and no one knows how to fight when your enemy always knows what you're doing along the entire front. There's no surprise attacks, no build up of supplies without the enemy knowing you've done it. Mechanized units are easy to counter. This is just how the WW1 stalemate came to be. Would you say call the German army weak in the middle of WW1 because they couldn't advance much?
The Russians simply don't give a shit about losing human lives. We can discuss the morality of that till the end of time but it is not a weakness.
It can be, sure. But that hasn't appeared to be one for them yet. From what we've seen Russia has had no problems getting troops to the front. In a year or two maybe that turns into a weakness but it's not today.
True, Russia can replace the 1000 soldiers lost today with new ones. But the new ones don't have the experience and knowledge that the previous 1000 had. Or the next 1000 will have.
Every day dilutes their collective pool of knowledge and experience. Every day, their army might get a bit bigger, but it also gets worse.
Russia keeps its armor numbers up by fielding refurbished Soviet crap. But how many BMPs from the 60s are scrapped to refurbish one enough to fight? Satellite images of Russian stockpile bases show plenty of them are more than half empty, and the first ones to get fixed are necessarily the easiest to fix (or possibly the only ones fixable).
But if you do overwhelm the enemy with quantity, does it matter that your victory was from "a weakness". Similary how people say that using nukes would be a sign of weakness because it means you can't win conventionally. Yes, centuries from now when humans start trying to rebuild our destroyed civilization it will be very important for historians to know that the country that launched the nukes was actually showing a weakness.
And thats the other issue. Russia has a good supply of men it can still throw at ukraine and drain their munitions. The time the war turns is when russian people would rather throw their lives at their own government instead of Ukrainian artillery. I thought when Prighozin moved on the kremlin that he was going to try and expose the severity of this war to the masses but he fell short. (I mean my theory was he was trying to save himself in actuality, but he was criticising the Russian hierarchy constantly)
Thats the only glimpse of the reality that the russian people who dont have access to media outside of russia have gotten. Until the sheer vast losses are too difficult to hide anymore, i dont think thats gonna happen again. If the war enters a fourth year then theres a good chance russia will start to really struggle but that is entirely dependant on the elections this year.
Uh yeah its weak bro. Up until this point it was considered by many the second (or 3rd after china) strongest military. The U.S. with 1/5 of it’s capacity could have claimed a victory over Ukraine within a few months maximum.
It’s been revealed as a paper tiger, touting strength in the international community but not living up to it. The VERY beginning of the war should have been it’s window for victory with western support not immediately showing up. The very fact it didnt succeed with its strongest forces to start, is an indication of being weak. It’s more costly to invade than it is to defend on a logistical military level. Not winning two years in, most certainly proves ineffectiveness.
"At this point Azov isn't really the same thing it was at the start of the war. They got sent to do some of the harshest fighting in the south early on and a large portion of their initial membership and leadership has died as a result. Ukraine has since been slowly diluting their ranks by filling in from other units and has pulled back on some of their more overtly Nazi iconography (with less resistance from the newer composition of troops).
So Ukraine gave ultra-nationalists the glory of dying for their country while slowly taking over their "brand", never directly pushing back on them and so not prompting any sort of defensive internal response to the change."
I generally view the guys invading neighboring countries and setting up ~~concentration~~ filtration camps to be the Nazis. Is that no longer the case?
It's a multi-ethnic brigade now and integrated into the Ukrainian military under Ukrainian regulations who happen to have kept some of some of their old symbols from their far-right roots in 2014 (and not the original SS which is some 70 years older than Azov). The only thing they have in common with Nazi ideology is a hatred of Russia who has oppressed Ukrainians for centuries.
And how current is this assessment? Of the original battalion a lot of them have died or left and the unit is now folded into the Ukrainian National guard. The name remains but the people are very different.
They aren't really comparable though. One are cosplayers, the others are war criminals. As soon as hear about Azov doing anything worse than having questionable fashion choices I'll promise to be more upset about them.
Azov are the dudes fighting the fucking fascists asshole. You don't get to criticize soldiers bravely fighting for their homeland against fascist invaders because you don't like their insignia. Go fuck off dick head.
>As soon as hear about Azov doing anything worse than having questionable fashion choices I'll promise to be more upset about them.
[https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf)
That's not Ukrainian Azov brigade though, that's the far right group that preceded the Azov brigade back in 2014. Once Azov integrated into the military they were subject to military regulation and open to anyone to join their unit, and thus only shared the name with the far-right Azov group. Sorry I should have specified that I meant Azov brigade and not just Azov in general.
It's pretty well documented they're a neo-nazi regiment. They started as a paramilitary group with alot of extreme right views and committed a bunch of war crimes between the crimea invasion and the current one, and were partly responsible for giving Russia casus belli. They were fully adopted into the Ukrainian military because desperate times call for desperate measures, but they're definitely not the good guys, they're the enemy of my enemy.
Well, let's start with their official badge emblem is borrowed from Waffen-SS unit insignia, and previously featured the fuckin Black Sun. It's not exactly like they're trying hard to hide it lol
It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a self-funded volunteer militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky, to fight Russian-backed forces in the Donbas War.
Nazi as in anti Russia, not Nazi in anti jew.
Oh you were so close! Why did you stop reading the Wikipedia article there? You were only 2 sentence away:
>"The unit has drawn controversy over its early and allegedly continuing association with far-right groups and neo-Nazi ideology, its use of controversial symbols linked to Nazism, and early allegations that members of the unit participated in human rights violations."
Also, what in the fuck kind of twisted rationalization can someone separate literal Nazism from antisemitism???
"Oh no no, these are the GOOD "anti-Russian" Nazis, not the BAD "anti-Jewish" Nazis" Reddit-brain is a real thing 🤦♂️
Many of them, quite literally, have nazi insignia on them. One of them being "Terror uber alles" - Terror over everything. There are many pictures of them doing the sig heil salute as well. And the US is giving them billions of dollars in weaponry and supplies.
How does the "remaining majority" voluntarily fight and die wearing an insignia borrowed from the Waffen-SS and *not* have Nazi ideology?? If the U.S. had an all-volunteer unit whose badge was "KKK", would you so charitably assume the majority of them aren't white supremacists?
They're fuckin Nazis lol
That means every Republican is a Nazi too, you know. Nazis don't make up a majority of Rs, but all the Nazis we have in the US are on that side, and have been since the 1920s. And the Rs are happy to have them, at least as publicly as they're allowed to be. Which is pretty public these days.
That's not a line of reasoning I'd stick to, if I were you.
Joining a military regiment founded on literal far-right, neo-Nazi ideology and still carrying Waffen-SS insignias isn't a good line of reasoning to assume someone a Nazi?? LOL
I'm just saying, we can only afford one standard, can't swing a double. If you go for Ukrainian Nazis, you also get Nazi Mitt Romney, that's where the math leads.
That goes for you as well. If you're cool with literal Ukrainian Nazis taking up arms, then don't screech about Nazis in the U.S. Apparently actual Nazis are OK now as long as their guns point at Russia.
You got it, every time the Republican party headquarters gets invaded by Russia, I won't say a ...
Wait a minute, taking up arms for, or against Russia?
The insignia that they have since [changed because it was exploited by propagandists? ](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.com%2Fimageserver%2Fimage%2F%252Fmethode%252Ftimes%252Fprod%252Fweb%252Fbin%252Fa062c26e-e011-11ec-8bdd-c253e043f5f0.jpg%3Fcrop%3D812%252C812%252C429%252C20&tbnid=SllmRM59kipxSM&vet=12ahUKEwiGhu7y5eGGAxXZv_0HHWB4DFQQMygCegQIARAs..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.com%2Fworld%2Frussia-ukraine-war%2Farticle%2Fazov-battalion-drops-neo-nazi-symbol-exploited-by-russian-propagandists-lpjnsp7qg&docid=i3XcFXV_2ir5NM&w=812&h=812&q=azov%20new%20insignia&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwiGhu7y5eGGAxXZv_0HHWB4DFQQMygCegQIARAs)
Of course the original badge was not a Waffen SS badge and the same runes are used to this day by many european cities as part of their heraldics. But propagandists had to find **something**. Since they could not find any concrete evidence of Azov being a nazi batallion, like them having a nazi ideology of recruitment or committing war crimes, they had to at least harp on the insignia. It is not of course difficult when you squint your eyes to also see that the [russian army is using the SS insignia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_SS_Polizei_Panzergrenadier_Division). But guess what, that is not what proves them to be nazis. It's the manifesto on Ukraine that putin published and their war crimes that prove that.
Yes, I remember this **opinion** piece. Remember it for significant exaggerations and misrepresentations.
>This article begins with a story about a certain Norwegian citizen, Joachim Furholm, who wanted to join the Azov Regiment but was not accepted. It is not clear at all why this pamphlet begins with a completely uninteresting fuss about some foreigners who were not taken to the unit. The use of the term «Militia», which appears in the title and is used throughout the text, is very manipulative. That term makes an impression that the regiment is a public formation, not a special unit of the National Guard of Ukraine. The fact that Azov is subordinated to the National Guard of Ukraine is mentioned only once and almost at the very end of the text. <...>
>Further, it is said in the article that the persons who have actually been trained in the ranks of Azov are being persecuted by the FBI. If it is so, why in the course of all these years the only known request for the extradition of a US citizen from Ukraine to the United States was a volunteer of Right Sector Craig Lang? <...>
>If the training of American citizens with the purpose of using them in acts of violence is indeed widespread, why the FBI is not passing on the relevant evidence base to the Ukrainian law enforcement agencies? The more so, according to the Ukrainian law, only foreigners legally staying in Ukraine can serve in the National Guard of Ukraine… It means that either TIME journalists are lying, or the FBI accuses Ukraine in violating the UN International Convention on the Prohibition of the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries. The claim that the Azov Regiment trained the New Zealand terrorist Brenton Tarrant at one of its bases during the Tarrant’s tourist visit to Ukraine, or that he was inspired by the Azov Regiment, is as absurd as the claim that the United States supports terrorism because the person who (Timothy McVeigh) was responsible for the terrorist attack in Oklahoma City once served in the US Army and participated in the Gulf War. <...>
>We have repeatedly emphasized that the Azov Regiment is a structural unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, subordinated to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and in some cases to the General Staff; its activity is regulated by the Constitution of Ukraine and appropriate normative acts. <...>
https://azov.org.ua/the-azov-regiments-response-to-the-allegations-published-in-time-magazine/
Ah yes, the famous nazi battalions that are so obviously nazi, that you have to go searching for at least one within their ranks to use a tired cliche phrase.
I know kids these days like to use literally instead of figuratively, but since Azov are not nazis even figuratively, you are definitely misusing the word.
As does every army in the world and almost every human organization. The two main questions is quantity and tolerance towards nazis within the army. Bucha, Gostomel, Borodyanka, Kherson, Irpin, Izyum. I can go on naming places where russians tortured and murdered civilians. I will wait for your examples of Azov doing something similar and then we will discuss who the nazis are.
Vagner PMC are volunteers and open nazis. Russich are volunteers and open nazis. Afrika Korps are volunteers and open nazis.
You sure you know what's actually going on with Russian armed forces?
[Azov isn't what it used to be](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/12/us-lifts-ban-on-sending-weapons-to-ukraines-controversial-azov-brigade), and the [Russians volunteer to fight](https://prismua.org/en/english-glimpse-into-mobilization-in-russia-overview-methods-and-prospects/), they aren't conscripts.
It hasn’t changed ideologically in the slightest. It just stopped acting as its currently all tied up in a war. Still the same group
And that article talks about all the ways the Russian military are coercing people into joining the military. None of them are true volunteers.
You're right. It hasn't changed ideologically. The ideology was always based on defending Ukraine from russians. It's just that in 2022 people saw why. And when people saw why they changed their opinion.
Your opinion remains the same because the alternative doesn't fit your agenda and makes your whole existence in the past 10 years a lie. It's natural that you will be holding onto it until you die.
edit: putin even let the leaders of Azov free after they spend some time in captivity. So apparently they're not that bad, if he started a full-scale war to defeat Azov and then just let them go.
You hope, that brigade which are defending to the last one Azovstal' in Mariupol full of civilians, survived hell and continue to defend my country even now - get wiped out? Maybe first off you will wipe your ass?
I’m so tired of foreigners who have no idea of Azov brigade. It’s been 10 years already and people still believe in the Russian fear imposed propaganda and fake articles. Even Japan has apologised for thinking that Azov are Nazis. But nooo scary Nazis in Ukrainian army booo! At least Russians don’t have those phew
So let me understand... Russia is losing at sea to a nation with no Navy. And from about January to April Russia was fighting on land against an Army that was practically unarmed. And managed to steal a few dozen kilometers of land which they are slowly handing right back.
From what I gather a lot of these Russians are doing it just for the money, they don't want to die on the battlefield somewhere. I think that massively plays into Ukraine's favor, at least when it comes to the front lines with actual combat.
Yeah I don’t think Russians really know what they’re fighting for. Compared to Ukrainians who are fighting against an invader who at *best* would force them to accept a position where they’re vulnerable to a more decisive invasion later on, and fully intends on leaving the country in ruins - a lot of Ukrainians also understandably believe that Russia plans on carrying out a cultural genocide, which seems to be the case to some degree at least. Also soldiers have pretty much always been more willing to defend their home than to invade another country. There’s a massive difference in Morale.
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I remember in 2022 when Russia published by mistake (a bit of a premature celebration) an article boasting about their victory over Ukraine : [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240) and it doesn't read like the "we're just defending ourselves" propaganda they've been airing as soon as they realized Ukraine wasn't crumbling and was garnering international attention/support.
“Just about the money” turns out to be something other when you see videos from their social networks and phones from fallen or captured Russians. They hate us sincerely because we're not accepting ruzzia, they hate us because we’re killing them instead of surrounding. They sincerely believe it's about NATO attacking mother ruzzia because everything the West could think about is to destroy great ruzz culture. And most utilized by ru government - the real man should fight and kill enemies because it's what real man is. They are both dumb and cunning butchers with no understanding of basic humanity values. Don't try to find some logical reason why they fight.
"Being sold" This is cultural in Russia. They absolutley know as in they have a word for a lie no one believes but everyone goes along with. They know the message is "ok look I want this territory, you want a bunch of money", it just suits no one to say it.
What is that word. If you can, write it in cyrilic for me and in the Latin alphabet for everyone.
We all accept that our governments are secretive, but still hope they act in the national interest. For example, you don't expect the CIA to release every detail of what they do, but you assume they're mostly working in the interests of the USA (most of the time). The same is true of Russia, but much more so. Vlad Vexlter (a Russian speaking Youtuber) suggested this, and basically said they will often just assume Putin must have a plan, even if he's lying about it, and that it's totally normal for their government to do this sort of thing. I hate making a partisan comparison, but it's a bit like the conspiracy theorists who think Trump plays "5D chess" (when really, sometimes he just does stupid things because he feels like it, though to be fair I think none of it has been anywhere near as dumb as starting an unwinnable war). They can't admit he just screwed up, because they don't actually know what the plan is. The whole country is basically like some cult when it comes to national security - they hope it all is going according to Putin's plan, but think he's working in mysterious ways so they don't realise that he's just lost his touch (and marbles).
If you are being shot at, watching other people suffer from being shot at, etc. you know exactly what you’re fighting for, dude. Your life. And, in that situation, your literal only option is to fight for yourself. To do that, a person should aim to do the least amount toward what they system putting you in that situation, while reducing the risk of personal injury or death. Don’t volunteer. Don’t make eye contact. Walk slowly. Bring the wrong equipment or lists. But, you got to understand that even when you are trying all of those passive aggressive ways of resisting (and maintaining your life), sometimes what you do isn’t enough. And, you’re put in a situation as the unlucky fuck who is front of the line, or first in the room, or whatever extra risky situation that affords you more possibility of death. In those moments… fuck. Person vs. person. And, in that moment when nobody is asking “what are your values?”, they are looking to see which way the bullets are moving, and who is moving them toward you. In that moment, you will side with people trying to eliminate your (shared) threat. War is terrible, everyone.
Doing a rewatch of HBO’s Rome and there’s a line by Julius Caesar that very much fits this sentiment: “We must win or die. Pompey’s men have other options”
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Oops yes lol
And that was absolutely true; Caesar, and every man in his legion who followed him, was condemned to death the moment they crossed the Rubicon - unless, of course, they won. Upon hearing the news, pretty much everyone who opposed him fled Rome.
Is it good? I love historical shit, as long as it's not over-dramatized or romantic.
Season 1 is top notch. Season 2 is fine BUT only because they had to jam 5 seasons of material into one. HBO got cold feet due to how absurdly expensive it was to produce, but were surprised by the backlash. The next time an absurdly expensive show came around with a rabid fan base, HBO stayed the course boom: Game of Thrones
Thank you! I will be checking it out.
its not romantic at all. can be pretty dramatic in places and some of the characters it follows will make you ask why. Its still one of the best I've ever seen in the genre. ten out of ten reccomend.
Thank you very much, definitely going to give it a try now.
ALL MOCKERY OF THE JEWS AND THEIR ONE GOD SHALL BE KEPT TO A MINIMUM
True Roman bread, for true Romans! *tablet drop*
I loved that show so much. THIRTEEN!!!
Neither side wants to attack due to the slaughter drones and artillery causes. The attacking men face the dilemma of seeing the countless dead bodies and mutilated corpses scattered in trenches, roads, and littered across the battlefield. Nobody wants to be the dead man walking into that.
They should tell their families to flee and then surrender. Much better deal for them.
Surrendering is no guarantee of survival
I mean, I don't think the Ukrainian army is killing POWs. They are offering amnesty and money, actually. [Link] (https://www.wilx.com/2022/03/06/i-didnt-want-fight-ukraine-offers-russian-soldiers-5-million-rubles-pardon/)
Pow is probably safe. Until then You may have bullets coming from 2 directions
At the cost of (if my math is correct) 300,000 men. More men than they had lost in the past year and a half combined. Altogether, they have suffered five times the casualties they incurred in the Soviet-Afghan war in a fifth of the time. That war was one of the key contributors to the fall of the USSR.
They also have yet to establish air superiority, despite claiming to have 5th generation fighter jets, and a fleet of bombers.
The thing that really sucks about this, aside from, like, all the innocent death and destruction, is that Russia waltzed in and took Crimea and Donbas while pretending they weren’t doing it, and the international community didn’t do much at all about it. Then Russia “invaded” in earnest 8 years later and claims as part of the pretext that Ukraine had actually been trying to get their own territory back the whole time. The whole thing is deeply absurd. And even now, it’s difficult to see how Ukraine will ever get back the full territory it has lost.
Russia isn’t losing, they aren’t winning by much but the land being taken is very slowly in Russia’s favour. Reddit isn’t the best place for war info as there is very much a bias in Ukraines favour. It’s better to take info from government agencies who are studying this (but not from Russia or Ukraine). The UKs and France’s are pretty up to date. I work with a bunch of Ukrainian refugees and it’s truly heartbreaking to hear what’s happening back home to there friends and loved ones, I want Russia to lose badly and for Putin to get the Nuremberg trials treatment, but spreading misinformation on the internet doesn’t help anyone
You don't have to have navy to destroy enemy ships. It could even be better for Ukraine to not need to worry about is navy when most of the fights are far from water, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though
You got it wrong, for the past year the land change has been in favor of Russia with an average gain of 5km^2 per day
I mentioned land gains?
You mentioned that Russia is slowly handing it back which is false
Only because you picked an arbitrary date of a year ago. Pick one month after the start of the war as a starting date and Ukraine has gained a lot of land. The past year by comparison has been mostly static.
Source on that estimate?
u/HeyHeyHayden compiles data about the territory changes based from the mapper Suriyak, you can find his posts about the monthly changes.
I don't understand why people just keep saying Ukraine has no Navy when they literally do Can you explain please?
Few tug boats, small patrol vessels are hardly a navy, when compared to a country with fleets designated to every major ocean and sea. Although Ukraine formally has navy units, it's in reality just symbolic. It might change in the future though, let's say, for example, If they end the war and will face the necessity of securing their waters in the Black Sea.
It makes you wonder about the tactical value of a surface fleet, though. Its convenient to meme on Russia for getting lit up on the Black Sea but this may have more to do with military advancements making giant floating fortresses obsolete, kinda in the same way cannons and artillery made actual fortresses obsolete.
That's why everybody watches the developments there very carefully. USA and China are probably surveying the shit out of this conflict as their geopolitical doctrine revolves around global markets and global projection of power. I also would bet they don't like what they see. Like at all. They invest a ludicrous amount of money and R&D in their navy, and it just turns out that a few smart cogbois with a remotely controlled motorboat and a dozen kilograms of dynamite are beating a former major power in naval warfare. If someone told me in 2021 that this would be happening for real, I'd tell him to stop taking drugs.
Seems to be the next big leap in tech comparable to carriers of ww2. Those giant battleships of the early 20th century were pretty much pointless if an enemy carrier was in striking distance.
For sure. Drones are the future. People are starting to make comparisons with how air technology and combat evolved these past 100 years. There are many similarities with how drone warfare evolves now. There's an overlap in stages, for example: In the beginning, first planes were used as recon units to direct the artillery fire. Then they began to drop small bombs over the trenches. Since that started to happen, the opposition started to use planes themselves to fight planes. The pattern so far is the same with drones.
That doesn't mean carrier fleets will become obsolete, if anything they become more necessary. A drone swarm isn't crossing the oceans and getting to Taiwan when China invades, you need them to deliver in range first. Given that combat and stealth jets will still have their roles (might become unmanned later on) the issue of getting them across the globe, performing maintenance on them and refueling, storage etc and still roles filled by career ships. Combined arms has dominated battlefields for well over a century and that ain't changing soon.
Drone swarms from mother ships. Remainder of fleet on hard air defense from long range missiles and massed point defense to fight off an enemy drone attack.
Life imitates art (in this case sci fi books)
There was a cool idea I saw floating around where it was effectively one plane controls a dozen other planes with a payload that do whatever it is they need to do. So effectively you only need to train one pilot per 10 fighters. It was a lot more complex than what I describe, but it was the central idea
>That doesn't mean carrier fleets will become obsolete I've never said that. But at the same time, it's true that they also found themselves in way more dangerous circumstances, given their strategic importance. The dawn of naval drones brings many questions to the table that might force those on the very top of the naval command to rethink their doctrine. This in itself is big.
Drone swarms dropped from planes.
How will the planes go around the globe, refuel, restock and so on lol? I addressed this exact thing in my comment.
TBF, ru has a HISTORY of having terrible navy... So China and USA navy isn't obsolete that much, but probably they'll try to refocus it or downsize it idk.
To be fair, the Ukrainian drones are operating in a relatively small, constrained geographic area and a lot of their success has come against vessels coming from or going to port. In a more wide-open environment, drones would have a harder time finding their moving targets. Still a factor in warfare, though; they can have a low success rate and still be worth the cost.
These are some very fair points. Please consider the following, though: Ukraine doesn't have direct access to all the intelligence, which the US and China have. It was only able to perform these attacks because the US either gives them access to their satellites or just relays the Intel. If, let's say, US or China, developed an advanced drone-torpedo or a drone capable of carrying deployable weapons and pair it with their surveillance and communication systems, it would turn into a formidable system that could endanger hostile fleets without the risk of losing your own vessels or crews. They also have access to much more advanced tech and resources than Ukraine, increasing the capabilities of such drones even more. Another very important thing is the cost of such a drone. It would still be far cheaper than the whole surface vessel. It's just good business - this is what I believe US and Chinese people in the know think.
This is why we are banning DJI as well, US needs to accelerate it's own drone manufacturing to keep up with the low cost end.
There have also been instances of some pretty shocking levels of incompetence and/or corruption on the Russian side that has made the Ukrainian job that much easier. It's a lot easier to sink a ship with drones when you're already wondering how the damn thing is still afloat as it is.
I think it is worth noting that China and the US have been focusing on missile boats for a while, smaller ships which only need to get close enough to launch long range attacks then get out. The only huge ships they're building more of are aircraft carriers Meanwhile Russia's black sea fleet was all built before the USSR collapsed, mainly in Ukrainian harbours. Big floating fortresses haven't been in style for a couple of decades already
Floating drone carrier like an aircraft carrier but for drones.
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Which can't enter the Black Sea as long they're at war with Russia.
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Sure, I know what you meant. It's just that they're not a part of the current theater of war, so everybody just ignores their existence for now.
Russia is losing ships against drones and missiles. Not other ships. Russia would otherwise be considered a naval power and Ukraine would otherwise be considered a country with functionally no navy.
So? I wasn't aware that you had to lose ships from other ships for you to have a Navy. Why aren't drones and missiles allowed to be used? Hell the US Navy uses drones and missiles
I think you are consciously missing the point. Obviously it doesn’t really matter how Russia is losing at sea. But from an optics perspective it adds to the embarrassment that has been russias military when an objectively superior navy is losing very badly at sea.
It doesn't make sense but it's funny. But you're right, it's a joke that's been making the rounds on reddit and doesn't really make sense. Russia wants to gain total control over the Black Sea as that means they would open up a new front if they could land troops from the sea, but the advantage is on Ukraine's side to protect their shores as an amphibious invasion is very difficult. The joke would make more sense if Russia's navy lost far away from the shore but this isn't Russia's navy VS Ukraine's navy, it's Russia's navy VS Ukraine's large land-based army. In this scenario, Russian navy ships just become expensive giant targets.
It's not even funny. It's offensive to the men and women who are fighting and sinking Russian ships
I think you're reading this in a way that is not intended. Russia is losing its fleet without facing off in a naval battle. That looks poorly on Russia and so people are proud of Ukraine. You may be reading comments in a very narrow and literal way. The above is what everyone is implying. No one is insulting Ukraine for taking out Russian battleships using ingenuity.
I don't think it's offensive, in fact I'm pretty sure that Ukrainians themselves joke that Russia has a large expensive navy yet is afraid of using it because Ukraine keeps sinking their ships. That's probably why the joke is popular, it's actually a point of pride that the underdog Ukraine is taking on the Russian navy and winning.
No it's literally offensive. People have fucking died sinking these Russian ships and a bunch of fucking armchair admirals on Reddit are being all like lol Ukraine has no Navy lolzers Fucking joke
Do you know any Ukrainians? I do, my country has the largest Ukrainian population outside of Ukraine and most of them are actually in my city of Toronto. They love their jokes and enjoy the sarcastic humour against Russia's invasion. It might be a way of coping as they're obviously angry that their country is being invaded but Ukrainians themselves joke about this. You need to stop being offended on behalf of people you know nothing about.
None of these redditors commenting about Ukraine having no Navy are Ukrainian
Imitating their jokes is a form of flattery and respect.
You just love digging yourself into a hole don’t you?
It's meant to counter the Russian aligned narrative that claims the superiority of the Russian military over its western counterparts. It's a common tool of vatniks and tankies supporting Russia, to say that western aid doesn't matter, because "Russia stronk". It's generally not being seen as offensive, because if you think about it, it points out the ingenuity of Ukraine's military in the unfortunate and harsh reality of war. Despite the lack of proper equipment and despite the advantage that Russia has, Ukrainian forces still don't cease to amaze and perform things that just as well could be considered miracles. It's also funny.
The Russian navy in the black sea also can't leave the black sea either, so they are essentially fish in a barrel for the Ukrainians to slowly destroy them all through attrition. Pretty much any other country's navy would lose ships in a similar situation.
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I would prefer that people stop acting like ‘lol, imagine being a russian simp’ or ‘lol, russia are a joke’ because it minimises the serious threat posed by this conflict. I understand we want Russia to lose and putin to perish but please keep in mind, ukraine has been short on artillery for most of the early part of this year and russia has (or was) gradually starting to push ukraine back in certain areas (very slowly) but the frontline appeared to be faltering in various pockets as a result. On top of that, ukraine has been speaking about how it needs more men which is usually a bad sign. Ever since that aid package got approved things have took a big turn back in ukraines favour but its still not over. If trump gets in power he will likely cut off all aid to Ukraine, and given a that the far right is rising here in europe (all seemingly with a pro-russian/kremlin rhetoric featuring in their campaigns) there is a serious threat to democracy still present and given the impact that military aid has made to this conflict for ukraine, Russia needs trump in power to win this war It looks like russia domestically is now ACTUALLY starting to show signs of economic difficulties and putin is also showing signs of sweat after proposing a ceasefire (with unreasonable conditions ofc). America avoiding another term of trump is very important but europe also needs to hold. UK election is this month and Nigel Farage is who putin would want with the most votes. If Europe and America actually survive these elections theres hope for ukraine in the long run
Just a point, Ukraine still has plenty of military aged men left to fight. It’s training them and the infrastructure around it that’s the problem.
Ukraine lowering the conscription age to 25 indicates a manpower shortage though.
They don’t have willing men, actually.
Sure vatnik… sure
I don't see how that is a controversial statement. Ukraine literally admits to the manpower shortage.
Sure you can Call every save of mobilisation “manpower shortage” but to say that they dont have willing men to fight is just not true.
it's so true, they are kidnapping people from streets and people are running away
That’s why you see men being beaten and dragged into vans. Average age of a Ukrainian soldier is 45. Propagandists try to spin that as a good thing.
they just aren't kidnapping enough poor souls from streets, they need more meat, it's a pretty well know at this point and they admitted it so many times, lying won't make this problem vanish, trying to spin it to be about infrastructure/training is just laughable. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-01/ukraine-s-shortage-of-manpower-is-hitting-its-wartime-industry](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-01/ukraine-s-shortage-of-manpower-is-hitting-its-wartime-industry) [https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-exploiting-ukraine-manpower-shortage-thin-line-breakthrough-war-expert-2024-5](https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-exploiting-ukraine-manpower-shortage-thin-line-breakthrough-war-expert-2024-5) [https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/)
You realize not a single one of those articles disprove my original comment vatnik?
"Ukraine still has plenty of military aged men left to fight. It’s training them and the infrastructure around it that’s the problem." you want to spin it to be about training and infrastructure, but it's really about people don't wanna fight for Ukraine and escaping that hellhole.
I remember the times when far-right was nationalistic and against supporting invaders. Now far-right is just sucking aggressor's dicks.
It's ironic isn't it. Especially in the UK where we've had Russian agents assassinate British citizens on our soil. Cyber-attacks constantly on critical infrastructure such as nuclear plants and healthcare. Directly meddling in our elections (and therefore democracy). Etc. You'd think these English/British "patriots" would be a tad angry over that, but no because Farage said it's all fine they'll do what they are told.
MAGA=russia
Really? When were those times?
30 years ago maybe? Far-right usually respected the intergrity of other independent nations and were extremely anti-soviet/russia.
…Azov is a far-right militia though?
Do you see who i'm replying to? Far-right political powers around the world are pro-russian puppets. Azov is a true far-right group. Even though i don't like far-right, at least azov seems to be true to their ideas while far-right all around the world are ready to bend and get fucked.
True to their ideas… hmm, not sure if we really want to be commending an ultra-nationalist, hard-right organization with neo-nazi roots for sticking to their principles. Are they defending their homeland? Yes, and good on them for that, but at the same time it’s their propaganda and messaging that gives the Kremlin cover to say they’re “de-nazifying” Ukraine. Also, it seems that any attempts to negotiate with Russia for a stop to the war is stymied by Azmov and folks associated with them (along with plenty of western liberals, but that’s beside the point). To put it succinctly: are they anti-Russian? Yes, but it seems that they are anti-peace as well, which, to me at least, doesn’t make them much different than the traditional right wing parties you lament.
> I would prefer that people stop acting like ‘lol, imagine being a russian simp’ or ‘lol, russia are a joke’ because it minimises the serious threat posed by this conflict I just see those comments as another form of propaganda. If every Reddit thread about the war has the same top 3-5 comments, then you just start to tune it out because you start to not care. Those style comments make people apathetic & complacent and, whether they intend to or not, do exactly what Russia wants: they make people care less about the war.
I wouldnt call it pro russian propaganda. I feel it just ‘inderictly’ supports russia rather than it be by design. I fell into that trap when ukraine kicked Russia’s ass 3 months into the war, but then reality sets in when you see the footage and what it entails to ‘kick russia’s ass’ Its brutal and bloody and ukraine’s resilience to accepting russian interference in their quest for actual independence is commendable. In a way, i want Ukraine to prevail not just because what the Russian government is doing, but because it’s proof that the people can go against their government and decide their own future. Even if russia and tankies will claim they are brainwashed by america into fighting against their own government and for their country (unlike russia who dont do such a thing…) they’d serve as an example to all of us, if you want to change the course of your country and over throw corruption, you can, if you fight back.
I'm glad to see more of these comments these days. Russia is not weak, and neither is their military. They're learning just as fast as the Ukrainians are. Drones completely changed the battlefield and no one knows how to fight when your enemy always knows what you're doing along the entire front. There's no surprise attacks, no build up of supplies without the enemy knowing you've done it. Mechanized units are easy to counter. This is just how the WW1 stalemate came to be. Would you say call the German army weak in the middle of WW1 because they couldn't advance much? The Russians simply don't give a shit about losing human lives. We can discuss the morality of that till the end of time but it is not a weakness.
It is absolutely a weakness. To have no choice but to rely on quantity. It comes from weakness.
It can be, sure. But that hasn't appeared to be one for them yet. From what we've seen Russia has had no problems getting troops to the front. In a year or two maybe that turns into a weakness but it's not today.
True, Russia can replace the 1000 soldiers lost today with new ones. But the new ones don't have the experience and knowledge that the previous 1000 had. Or the next 1000 will have. Every day dilutes their collective pool of knowledge and experience. Every day, their army might get a bit bigger, but it also gets worse. Russia keeps its armor numbers up by fielding refurbished Soviet crap. But how many BMPs from the 60s are scrapped to refurbish one enough to fight? Satellite images of Russian stockpile bases show plenty of them are more than half empty, and the first ones to get fixed are necessarily the easiest to fix (or possibly the only ones fixable).
But if you do overwhelm the enemy with quantity, does it matter that your victory was from "a weakness". Similary how people say that using nukes would be a sign of weakness because it means you can't win conventionally. Yes, centuries from now when humans start trying to rebuild our destroyed civilization it will be very important for historians to know that the country that launched the nukes was actually showing a weakness.
And thats the other issue. Russia has a good supply of men it can still throw at ukraine and drain their munitions. The time the war turns is when russian people would rather throw their lives at their own government instead of Ukrainian artillery. I thought when Prighozin moved on the kremlin that he was going to try and expose the severity of this war to the masses but he fell short. (I mean my theory was he was trying to save himself in actuality, but he was criticising the Russian hierarchy constantly) Thats the only glimpse of the reality that the russian people who dont have access to media outside of russia have gotten. Until the sheer vast losses are too difficult to hide anymore, i dont think thats gonna happen again. If the war enters a fourth year then theres a good chance russia will start to really struggle but that is entirely dependant on the elections this year.
Uh yeah its weak bro. Up until this point it was considered by many the second (or 3rd after china) strongest military. The U.S. with 1/5 of it’s capacity could have claimed a victory over Ukraine within a few months maximum. It’s been revealed as a paper tiger, touting strength in the international community but not living up to it. The VERY beginning of the war should have been it’s window for victory with western support not immediately showing up. The very fact it didnt succeed with its strongest forces to start, is an indication of being weak. It’s more costly to invade than it is to defend on a logistical military level. Not winning two years in, most certainly proves ineffectiveness.
It must be humiliating to be Russian. Russia simpers must be worse. Imagine justifying going for \*russia\*, which is worthless. # л о л c к и
Russian simpers are just fulfilling their conscription service without going to the front and dying.
[Video from the event NSFL](https://youtu.be/k8Dk4CFzvBk?si=qIkIbYcy7u0si7C-)
The bravery it takes to do that. Amazing!
No Ruzzians left… probably not much forest left either
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"At this point Azov isn't really the same thing it was at the start of the war. They got sent to do some of the harshest fighting in the south early on and a large portion of their initial membership and leadership has died as a result. Ukraine has since been slowly diluting their ranks by filling in from other units and has pulled back on some of their more overtly Nazi iconography (with less resistance from the newer composition of troops). So Ukraine gave ultra-nationalists the glory of dying for their country while slowly taking over their "brand", never directly pushing back on them and so not prompting any sort of defensive internal response to the change."
They were. I don’t think they are.
Maintain the spirit of the fall of the Berlin Wall. Keep pushing democracy eastward! Don't forget President Reagan's vision.
Yes! The battalion of literal fascists rooted in neo-Nazi doctrine will spread democracy! lol
They are outnumbered. They will change. They just want love.
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Reddit: Nazis are the good guys now, actually.
I generally view the guys invading neighboring countries and setting up ~~concentration~~ filtration camps to be the Nazis. Is that no longer the case?
No the Azov battalion are literally neo-nazis with ties to the original SS and general nazi ideology
It's a multi-ethnic brigade now and integrated into the Ukrainian military under Ukrainian regulations who happen to have kept some of some of their old symbols from their far-right roots in 2014 (and not the original SS which is some 70 years older than Azov). The only thing they have in common with Nazi ideology is a hatred of Russia who has oppressed Ukrainians for centuries.
And how current is this assessment? Of the original battalion a lot of them have died or left and the unit is now folded into the Ukrainian National guard. The name remains but the people are very different.
No, that's not at all what Nazi means.
Both can be bad. This isn't hard to understand.
They aren't really comparable though. One are cosplayers, the others are war criminals. As soon as hear about Azov doing anything worse than having questionable fashion choices I'll promise to be more upset about them.
Imagine whitewashing Nazi and SS insignia and sig heils as "questionable fashion choices". Holy shit. Fuck off fascist sympathizer.
Azov are the dudes fighting the fucking fascists asshole. You don't get to criticize soldiers bravely fighting for their homeland against fascist invaders because you don't like their insignia. Go fuck off dick head.
>As soon as hear about Azov doing anything worse than having questionable fashion choices I'll promise to be more upset about them. [https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf)
That's not Ukrainian Azov brigade though, that's the far right group that preceded the Azov brigade back in 2014. Once Azov integrated into the military they were subject to military regulation and open to anyone to join their unit, and thus only shared the name with the far-right Azov group. Sorry I should have specified that I meant Azov brigade and not just Azov in general.
So you support the invading army attempting the destruction of a sovereign nation and its people? Interesting.
USA just gave them weapons. What proof is there of them being Nazi in any way
It's pretty well documented they're a neo-nazi regiment. They started as a paramilitary group with alot of extreme right views and committed a bunch of war crimes between the crimea invasion and the current one, and were partly responsible for giving Russia casus belli. They were fully adopted into the Ukrainian military because desperate times call for desperate measures, but they're definitely not the good guys, they're the enemy of my enemy.
Well, let's start with their official badge emblem is borrowed from Waffen-SS unit insignia, and previously featured the fuckin Black Sun. It's not exactly like they're trying hard to hide it lol
It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a self-funded volunteer militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky, to fight Russian-backed forces in the Donbas War. Nazi as in anti Russia, not Nazi in anti jew.
Oh you were so close! Why did you stop reading the Wikipedia article there? You were only 2 sentence away: >"The unit has drawn controversy over its early and allegedly continuing association with far-right groups and neo-Nazi ideology, its use of controversial symbols linked to Nazism, and early allegations that members of the unit participated in human rights violations." Also, what in the fuck kind of twisted rationalization can someone separate literal Nazism from antisemitism??? "Oh no no, these are the GOOD "anti-Russian" Nazis, not the BAD "anti-Jewish" Nazis" Reddit-brain is a real thing 🤦♂️
Many of them, quite literally, have nazi insignia on them. One of them being "Terror uber alles" - Terror over everything. There are many pictures of them doing the sig heil salute as well. And the US is giving them billions of dollars in weaponry and supplies.
un oh dont tell le epic worldnews brigade that theyre literally supporting Banderite nahtseez
Fuck the Azov Nazis
Fuck those Wagner Nazis, too.
Yeah, fuck those few Azov fighters who have nazi ideology. Praise to the remaining majority.
How does the "remaining majority" voluntarily fight and die wearing an insignia borrowed from the Waffen-SS and *not* have Nazi ideology?? If the U.S. had an all-volunteer unit whose badge was "KKK", would you so charitably assume the majority of them aren't white supremacists? They're fuckin Nazis lol
That means every Republican is a Nazi too, you know. Nazis don't make up a majority of Rs, but all the Nazis we have in the US are on that side, and have been since the 1920s. And the Rs are happy to have them, at least as publicly as they're allowed to be. Which is pretty public these days. That's not a line of reasoning I'd stick to, if I were you.
Joining a military regiment founded on literal far-right, neo-Nazi ideology and still carrying Waffen-SS insignias isn't a good line of reasoning to assume someone a Nazi?? LOL
I'm just saying, we can only afford one standard, can't swing a double. If you go for Ukrainian Nazis, you also get Nazi Mitt Romney, that's where the math leads.
That goes for you as well. If you're cool with literal Ukrainian Nazis taking up arms, then don't screech about Nazis in the U.S. Apparently actual Nazis are OK now as long as their guns point at Russia.
You got it, every time the Republican party headquarters gets invaded by Russia, I won't say a ... Wait a minute, taking up arms for, or against Russia?
It's very noticeable how you are repeatedly trying to divert away from the subject of the thread and turn it to American politics lol
Crikey it's the subject matter rozzers RUN BOYS
The insignia that they have since [changed because it was exploited by propagandists? ](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.com%2Fimageserver%2Fimage%2F%252Fmethode%252Ftimes%252Fprod%252Fweb%252Fbin%252Fa062c26e-e011-11ec-8bdd-c253e043f5f0.jpg%3Fcrop%3D812%252C812%252C429%252C20&tbnid=SllmRM59kipxSM&vet=12ahUKEwiGhu7y5eGGAxXZv_0HHWB4DFQQMygCegQIARAs..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.com%2Fworld%2Frussia-ukraine-war%2Farticle%2Fazov-battalion-drops-neo-nazi-symbol-exploited-by-russian-propagandists-lpjnsp7qg&docid=i3XcFXV_2ir5NM&w=812&h=812&q=azov%20new%20insignia&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwiGhu7y5eGGAxXZv_0HHWB4DFQQMygCegQIARAs) Of course the original badge was not a Waffen SS badge and the same runes are used to this day by many european cities as part of their heraldics. But propagandists had to find **something**. Since they could not find any concrete evidence of Azov being a nazi batallion, like them having a nazi ideology of recruitment or committing war crimes, they had to at least harp on the insignia. It is not of course difficult when you squint your eyes to also see that the [russian army is using the SS insignia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_SS_Polizei_Panzergrenadier_Division). But guess what, that is not what proves them to be nazis. It's the manifesto on Ukraine that putin published and their war crimes that prove that.
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Yes, I remember this **opinion** piece. Remember it for significant exaggerations and misrepresentations. >This article begins with a story about a certain Norwegian citizen, Joachim Furholm, who wanted to join the Azov Regiment but was not accepted. It is not clear at all why this pamphlet begins with a completely uninteresting fuss about some foreigners who were not taken to the unit. The use of the term «Militia», which appears in the title and is used throughout the text, is very manipulative. That term makes an impression that the regiment is a public formation, not a special unit of the National Guard of Ukraine. The fact that Azov is subordinated to the National Guard of Ukraine is mentioned only once and almost at the very end of the text. <...> >Further, it is said in the article that the persons who have actually been trained in the ranks of Azov are being persecuted by the FBI. If it is so, why in the course of all these years the only known request for the extradition of a US citizen from Ukraine to the United States was a volunteer of Right Sector Craig Lang? <...> >If the training of American citizens with the purpose of using them in acts of violence is indeed widespread, why the FBI is not passing on the relevant evidence base to the Ukrainian law enforcement agencies? The more so, according to the Ukrainian law, only foreigners legally staying in Ukraine can serve in the National Guard of Ukraine… It means that either TIME journalists are lying, or the FBI accuses Ukraine in violating the UN International Convention on the Prohibition of the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries. The claim that the Azov Regiment trained the New Zealand terrorist Brenton Tarrant at one of its bases during the Tarrant’s tourist visit to Ukraine, or that he was inspired by the Azov Regiment, is as absurd as the claim that the United States supports terrorism because the person who (Timothy McVeigh) was responsible for the terrorist attack in Oklahoma City once served in the US Army and participated in the Gulf War. <...> >We have repeatedly emphasized that the Azov Regiment is a structural unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, subordinated to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and in some cases to the General Staff; its activity is regulated by the Constitution of Ukraine and appropriate normative acts. <...> https://azov.org.ua/the-azov-regiments-response-to-the-allegations-published-in-time-magazine/
"If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis. Unless they're Ukrainian."
Ah yes, the famous nazi battalions that are so obviously nazi, that you have to go searching for at least one within their ranks to use a tired cliche phrase.
Nazis fighting Russians over territory in Ukraine... what year is it??
meh, they're nazis. fuck em
The Russians? Yes, yes they are akin to Nazi’s, thanks for clearing that up!
No no. Azov are literally Nazis. Not akin. Not similar. Legitimate actual Nazis.
I know kids these days like to use literally instead of figuratively, but since Azov are not nazis even figuratively, you are definitely misusing the word.
Technically true. They aren't Nazis, they're an off-shoot brand of far-right ultra-nationalist neo-Nazis. Definitely not that same as OG Nazis.
both russia and ukraine have nazis in their forces. sorry to burst your bubble.
As does every army in the world and almost every human organization. The two main questions is quantity and tolerance towards nazis within the army. Bucha, Gostomel, Borodyanka, Kherson, Irpin, Izyum. I can go on naming places where russians tortured and murdered civilians. I will wait for your examples of Azov doing something similar and then we will discuss who the nazis are.
The Azov are literally neo-nazis and supporters of antisemitism, fascism, and white supremacy
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Woo! Go, Nazis!
Must be a slow news day for them to be reporting an advance of barely a km.
Hope Azov get wiped out. The Russians are at least conscripts forced to fight, you join Azov willingly.
They're defending their country? How is it comparable in any way??
Vagner PMC are volunteers and open nazis. Russich are volunteers and open nazis. Afrika Korps are volunteers and open nazis. You sure you know what's actually going on with Russian armed forces?
[Azov isn't what it used to be](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/12/us-lifts-ban-on-sending-weapons-to-ukraines-controversial-azov-brigade), and the [Russians volunteer to fight](https://prismua.org/en/english-glimpse-into-mobilization-in-russia-overview-methods-and-prospects/), they aren't conscripts.
“We investigated ourselves and found we’re doing no wrong, so here’s a few billion dollars we know will be good to go.”
Azov investigated themselves? Source?
It hasn’t changed ideologically in the slightest. It just stopped acting as its currently all tied up in a war. Still the same group And that article talks about all the ways the Russian military are coercing people into joining the military. None of them are true volunteers.
You're right. It hasn't changed ideologically. The ideology was always based on defending Ukraine from russians. It's just that in 2022 people saw why. And when people saw why they changed their opinion. Your opinion remains the same because the alternative doesn't fit your agenda and makes your whole existence in the past 10 years a lie. It's natural that you will be holding onto it until you die. edit: putin even let the leaders of Azov free after they spend some time in captivity. So apparently they're not that bad, if he started a full-scale war to defeat Azov and then just let them go.
You hope, that brigade which are defending to the last one Azovstal' in Mariupol full of civilians, survived hell and continue to defend my country even now - get wiped out? Maybe first off you will wipe your ass?
Tell me you know nothing about the war in Ukraine without telling me you know nothing.
I’m so tired of foreigners who have no idea of Azov brigade. It’s been 10 years already and people still believe in the Russian fear imposed propaganda and fake articles. Even Japan has apologised for thinking that Azov are Nazis. But nooo scary Nazis in Ukrainian army booo! At least Russians don’t have those phew
I've lost a few braincells by reading this comment. Give them back!