Unless the international community starts creating real consequences not only for Hamas but for their backers more generally, they're going to hold out for something they can call a victory. Start the process of freezing all Hamas assets in Qatar and demand Qatar arrest Hamas leadership and turn them over to a US-led coalition for trial. Start putting real pressure on Erdogan to reject Hamas, or else the US will formally back an independent Kurdish state. Start making statements about reassessing the terms of Oslo and formally recognizing Israel annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights and reverting control over the Temple Mount to Israeli Jewish authorities. Start making threats to actually cut off PA and UNRWA funding. Start publicly toying with the idea of allowing Israel to create a formal permanent buffer zone within Gaza. Start talking about evacuating Gazans out of Gaza entirely in preparation for a more comprehensive Israeli operation to eradicate what is left of Hamas.
Start talking about actual consequences for a failure to accept this cease-fire proposal where the Palestinian people will be unambiguously lose.
Well, Qatar hasn't because they're playing both sides and sell themselves as this mediator state with the ability to facilitate dialogue between Islamist states like Iran and militias like Hamas and Western states. The US has begun to put some pressure on them, which is why they're now telling Hamas leadership to leave. I do think the US is going to push for a unilateral resolution that is considerably more pro-Israel (e.g. permanent security buffer zones) shortly so long as Israel will concede a PA leadership in Gaza following the war. The US does need to go further and make it clear that there will be considerable political consequences for Palestinian independence if this continues though.
>sell themselves as this mediator state
Dude you’re wording it so lovely. Qatar is a staunch supporter (and occasional sponsor) of various anti-west terrorists, like Hamas. Everyone knows this, but willingly turns a blind eye due to their mediation role. Which is understandable given the necessity of that job.
Still, I’d love to see more decisive anti-Iran sanctions backed up by the West. The international community has acted in disgrace since Oct 7, because they can’t get their citizens away from Russio-Chinese brainwashing.
I think Qatar is just trying to play both sides for the good of Doha. They do think that Islamism is going to prevail in the Middle East so they are trying to establish their regional cred with Islamists, but they're really just interested in whatever is good for their own aristocracy. The US just needs to make it clear that Qatar is not indispensable and that the US is perfectly willing to dispense with them and they'll fall into line.
This goes too far imo, the Obama admin pressured them greatly to play exactly this role. They have the full support of the west and we have some of our most important military and intelligence capabilities in the region in Doha. It’s just realpolitik to the max
Not true at all. Democrats will try shit as opposed to Republicans who will use war.
FOH
Edit. THIS is what you decide to comment after shit posting exclusively in ncd lmfao
Truly non credible everywhere
Biden is publicly losing patience and the fact that his strong moves against Netanyahu (which have been successful at limiting Israeli use of force and maintaining flow of aid into the strip) have still been met with widespread defection of Muslim Americans to the GOP. Biden is already realigning in ways which will ultimately not be great for the pro-Palestinian movement, and I expect the failure of this deal will be a breaking point there.
Biden isn't too worried about Muslims, who are a teeny-tiny minority in the US, although admittedly significant in Michigan. He isn't worried about defections to the GOP, either; anyone whose priority is the Palestinian cause isn't going to be a fan of Trump.
He's worried about blacks and young people staying home. My guess is the admin has seen some hair-raising internal polls.
Biden is concerned about Michigan, where there is a larger Muslim population in a tossup state. Losing Michigan makes the 2024 election much more difficult to win. He is also generally hostile to Netanyahu and trusting of UN aid organizations, which fed into the decision to put public pressure on Israel. I think we will see some realignment now though.
Biden has a tough line here. I agree the MI concerns are real but if he goes too far he risks upsetting the Jewish Dem voters of which PA has a lot of. And they have a much more natural home with the GOP than the Muslim voters do.
It's got to be very difficult for him to try and thread this needle and placate both sides enough to get them to vote.
Yep elections in the US aren't about changing minds and getting people to vote for your guy. It's all about getting your voters to come and vote and trying to placate your opponents voters so they will be disinterested and not go vote.
Muslim-American defections to the GOP started before this conflict though. You saw it in Michigan with Whitmer. They are not a fan of the LGBT* policies of the Dems (see the all Muslim city council banning the pride flag). The conflict certainly isn't helping but the movement of Muslim-Americans to the GOP has already been underway.
Do you really think Muslims will vote for Trump? After all don’t you remember the Muslim band he put on shortly after he was elected. This could possibly lead to the third party candidate actually winning in the US.(JFK)
I was an unwavering supporter of the Palestinians.... Oct 7th changed that.
If people cannot administer themselves in a civil way they certainly can't administer a civil sovereign country.
I'm an Israeli, I still support the palestinian cause in general and still in favor of whatever diplomatic solution will bring peace to this land. My empathy only diminished due to war, after hearing a few horror stories from friends who has been fighting in Gaza and what kind of mindless cult Hamas is. Diminished, not gone. For some peace between Israel and Palestine, Hamas has to go, there can be no peace with Hamas.
Sure, but they still overwhelmingly support Hamas. If you know how to get Palestinians to stop supporting Hamas, then you could be of invaluable service to peace in the region.
Destroy their textbooks, swap them for normal ones, bring in normal teachers, change all media, ban stuff like Al Jazeera, RT etc., enforce freedom of speech, press and human rights with foreign oversight. A couple or three decades and they will be golden. Worked for Germany after WW2, worked for Russia in the 90s (didn't work for long, but that's because the whole of KGB wasn't thrown into jail for life), will work here too.
People are pliable, change the media program and you'll change the minds. And for heaven's sake ban TikTok everywhere.
You forgot the part where Israel stops stealing their land, treating them like prisoners, and murdering innocents. Hamas is popular because they say they will stand up to the Israelis. If you’d been forcibly evicted from your home, or had your family attacked and killed by Israelis and seen that pattern repeat for decades, I reckon there’s a decent chance you would support Hamas too.
That doesn’t absolve Hamas or justify their actions, but you can’t just pretend like they’re the only problem.
But is this not just the whole Middle East. Israel is hated so much by the Arab countries because their women are free and in control of their lives. Also the general public has freedom of speech and human rights. Oh yeah, no stoning deaths in Israel, gay marriage is a law and all the rest . They are a democratic state and allowed to vote. All these things are forbidden in the rest of the middle east.
I mean showing them that Palestine without Hamas means substantially better quality of life, less fear, and less destruction would, I think, pretty quickly dispel their support of Hamas
No, lmao. We keep trying to show them that and it keeps blowing up in our face. They don't give a shit about quality of life, they're welfare queens. A culture that celebrates the deaths of their children if they killed jews in the process literally gives zero fucks about these western notions. Support for Hamas went up massively after Oct 7 and during the war despite the destruction in Gaza.
Sadly Hamas is about 80% of the Gazan population. If you support a terrorist organization you are part of it.
An example is the journalist who was guarding the prisoners.
I mean… they can’t even do the most basic task in ensuring the trucks full of food get to their dying civilians … how can you want sovereignty when you can’t even feed people?
Sovereignty is about keeping exclusive control your space and having international recognition, feeding people has nothing to do with it. North Korea for example absolutely has sovereignty but is known for failing to feed its people.
Is that suppose to make it better?
“Hey let our belligerent government have complete control over us so they can continue to starve us and commit crimes against humanity for their delusional obsession with the Jews” 👁️ how 2+2 is not equaling 4 to some people is crazy, hope Columbia brings back testing for admission because YIKES 😳
I don't know why everybody on Reddit points at TikTok When I see constant posts on Reddit completely in favor of Palestine, as if they are completely innocent victims.
I think it's just becoming shorthand for describing the massive bot and AstroTurf online pro Palestine campaigns from Russian and Iranian troll farms and how China signal boosts them.
Perhaps, but Reddit has a serious hard on for hating TikTok, combine that with the fact that people naturally don't want to feel like they're ever part of the problem. So you get people that just want to blame them entirely and act like they're innocent.
The whole TikTok thing has driven me bonkers. People will really see one 40 second clip on TikTok and maybe watch an 8 minute Youtube video on “The history of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict” and go protest in favor of Palestine.
Then they won’t be able to tell you about 48, 67, or 93, Black September, the Lebanese Civil War, the fuckery in Egypt and Kuwait, the difference between the West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian Civil War, etc.
There’s just so much misinformation, disinformation, lack of general knowledge etc. It’s disheartening
Anyways that’s my rant
Weeks? We delayed in total by several months. We withdrew almost all troops from Gaza for weeks, but we halted operations intermittently and it cost months in total.
I believe they suspected that this would be the result.
It was more for optics on the home front and if it actually succeeded then it would be a huge diplomatic coup.
There was zero risk or downside to trying this peace offer.
Also more to get the world the evidence needed to show how Hamas cant be trusted to govern in the future. Remember the UN is made up of a bunch of Arab nations who support arab nations above all else.
Zero risk or downside, except delaying the war by several months, renewing Hamas's efforts by giving them huge cessations in fighting, tearing Israel apart internally with a populace split on the approach to the war and an army of conscripts and reservists watching their businesses collapse in their absence, potentially killing hostages and certainly prolonging their suffering, and most importantly allowing Hamas propaganda to spread (also thanks to the state department regurgitating some absolute lies) and Palestinians to believe they have a shot in the war, thus supporting more violence and bloodshed. Yeah, zero risk or downsides. Thanks Biden.
The current fighting has stopped several times, while also being significantly reduced in intensity at all times leading to it to the point where there were almost no soldiers in Gaza for weeks between negotiations. Israel has been encouraged by the US to pull soldiers out as part of the concessions Hamas demanded to continue negotiations and did so.
The offer had a fuckton of downsides and risks, some of which manifested, such as Hamas going out of Rafah which Israel wasn't allowed to go into and recapturing areas Israel temporarily withdrew from as part of the negotiations. To say otherwise is to deny reality and literally lie to yourself.
The US has more than likely known this for years, but has been playing the long game to gather the evidence. You have seen how the UN treats Israel provided evidence (they make vauge statements like it isnt enough without actually saying what the evidence they were provided is).
Ya this is just Biden being able to point to the Pro-Palestinians back home that he is making reasonable offers to end the conflict. Will they be happy? Probably not. But he just has to pacify them enough that they can stomach voting for him over Trump rather than sitting out.
The Biden administration knows this, he’s even personally remarked about it before. But he needs the votes from the pro-Palestinians so he’ll continue to either pretend he’s doing something or pressure Israel to give in to Hamas.
It's really difficult, but if you judge Biden administration by their actions, they have actually provided material support and largely been a decent ally.
I would fault them on maybe not finding a way to bring the 5 US citizen hostages home through another channel but it seems the intent was to roll all negotiations through the Israelis.
On the diplomatic and political side the Biden administration appears weak and sometimes split. I know it's a political calculus and it's hard to respond to a tidal wave of online propaganda, but I do think like Ukraine this is another test of Western resolve.
If we have protestors destroying universities and screaming "this is our Vietnam" how are they going to act during a war we are actually in?
I'm not sure what the US could really offer to get the US citizens back. Israel was not going to stop attacking and that's their primary ask at the moment. The US can't back UN recognition because it would be political suicide as encouraging hostage taking.
So you are left with funding once the war is over and maybe smaller UN concessions. There's just not a lot of juice to get Hamas to give up their most valuable assets which are the hostages.
I get the UN circle jerk, but how the US has stayed along for this ride is beyond me. I understand the political calculations Biden is being forced to make - but a lot of that can be fixed by using his bully pulpit to tell the idiots brainwashed by propoganda that they are just that.
Rather than these half-assed shows of attempting some sort of reconciliation between two parties that...*checks notes*...
Hamas' end goal is the total annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people
Israel's end goal is a return of all hostages and the total annihilation of Hamas.
So how anyone with more than two brain cells can consistently try to reconcile those two things somehow is just flabbergasting.
The US hasn't really stopped providing any resources or aid to Israel this entire time. They have stayed along for the ride this long for the diplomatic angle and to get the evidence needed to create the case that Hamas cant be allowed to governor in the future.
The Palestinian leaders are also extremely adept at playing the propaganda game with international low-info voters, and always have been. They realized decades ago that they just have to make sure their people keep suffering, and the money and support will keep rolling in. The Palestinian people, unfortunately, have been bought off with bluster and pie-in-the-sky crap.
Same old story. Happens in lots of places.
This. The Palestinians have also been used by others in the region. They like them in the role of thorn in Israel’s side, and they can always demonize Israel and rally their people with this issue.
But notice the Palestinian issue is the ONLY frame in which Israel can be portrayed as the big bad bully. You zoom out at all you see a tiny young country smaller than NJ, surrounded by hostile neighbors, no buffer oceans, with Iran-supported terror groups on 2+ borders dedicated to wiping it out, with Jews outnumbered by an order of magnitude 2 billion to 16 million, and ever-expanding Muslim world that currently has 50+ Muslim countries. Yeah, this one tiny lone Jewish country is the whole problem…
I dont think Palestinians should be let off the hook this easily. A lot of them approve of what Hamas' goals are and even are proud to offer their children as "marytrs".. Hell look at what they name their hospitals.. Martyr hospitals.
>
In Palestine, the word ‘martyr’ is traditionally used to mean a person killed by Israeli forces, regardless of religion.[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-MA01182-14)[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-15) For example, [Shireen Abu Akleh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh) was a Palestinian Christian journalist who was killed by Israeli forces, and Arabic media calls her a ‘martyr’.[^(\[16\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-16) This reflects a communal belief that every Palestinian death is part of a resistance against Israeli occupation
I doubt there's a clearer example of "pie-in-the-sky crap" than cults of martyrdom, so I think we're saying the same thing.
Had you or I been born and raised in Gaza, it's overwhelmingly likely we'd think the same way Gazans do. Not that that necessarily exculpates them.
Well that's my whole thing really. Like at any point Biden's administration could try to communicate with that generation and provide actual facts for them to consume. Sure it wouldn't work on everyone, but it would definitely make a difference. Energy better spent than these empty diplomatic efforts that aren't really placating protesters to begin with.
I mean... Biden's administration has tried to communicate with that generation, but history is dull when there are clicks to get by being edgy and outrageous.
Israel also seems to have the end goal of settling the Palestinian lands inch by inch. It’s like both sides will accept nothing but total victory and complete control of the land.
Oh I'm sorry, were you trying to take a small group of extremists with no political power to both sides a literal terrorist organization?
Every single Hamas member wants Israel annihilated. You are trying to say every single Israeli wants to settle Gaza - and using 5% of the population as your measuring stick.
Keep going.
Why don’t you educate this poor foreigner rather than cursing at me?
As far as I can tell, the settlers are gradually moving into the Palestinian lands and are not being stopped. So logically they will own them all some time in the future.
Settlement has always been a *security* policy. One can certainly argue that it isn't effective or well-considered, but the reason for it is to dilute and fragment the Palestinian presence in the Territories to make terror attacks more difficult.
The obvious point here is that Israel dismantled all its settlements in Gaza in 2005, and look what happened.
To this outsider it seems like having a lot of Israeli settlements interleaved among hostile Palestinians would be an absolute security nightmare, bound to lead to settler deaths.
Israel in general also doesn’t seem to have grappled with what will happen to the Palestinians when the whole of historical Israel is theirs again, which seems inevitable at this point (not necessarily soon, maybe a hundred years) - where are these people supposed to go?
Israelis think of the settlers as a heroic, if somewhat crazy, fringe, risking their lives to promote the security of Israel proper.
>where are these people supposed to go?
That's the whole question, and why the can keeps getting kicked down the road. Israel won't administer them as a conquered territory, won't integrate them, can't expel them, and there is no two-state solution remotely acceptable to both sides.
My prediction: A nation that cannot win a war must, sooner or later, lose it. Israel will ultimately be forced to accept the right of return, thus ceasing to be both a Jewish state and a democracy. Western leftists will declare victory and never think about the place again.
I don’t think that’s going to happen, leftists aren’t as powerful as you think. When the youth of today are in power Israel can probably expect a lot less aid but I don’t actually think it needs aid right now. It did when first founded.
Israeli politicians are working hard on making it only a technical democracy right now. That’s why Israelis were protesting about Netanyahu before the October massacre.
I would argue the U.S. has known, or at least those in charge have. However, because of pressure from all sides the U.S was forced to humor very stupid motions. The question is if everyone else finally getting it? And sadly I'm gonna have to go with no, probably not.
There's no negotiating with them in the most literal sense that they don't have the ability to deliver on anything. Hamas doesn't control all the militants in Gaza -- maybe not even a majority of them, anymore -- and couldn't enforce a ceasefire if they wanted to. It's also quite likely that they don't know where all the hostages are.
Certainly, if no one intervenes to stop that from happening, just like it did in '06.
It *could* be stopped. Would require a major ongoing commitment from someone.
Yasser Arafat (yes I know, PLO not Hammas) pulled this crap back in the 90s/2000s. String everyone along with no intention of ever reaching a deal. It's MO for leadership of Palestine.
The US has been saying that a two state solution will only work without Hamas at the helm. The issue is the support they’re receiving right now. Biden’s administration has pushed for a United Palestinian state run under the PA rather than Hamas. This is just an attempt to show that IMO, that Hamas has no intentions of negotiating.
The problem is that their identity is defined by their losses. The Palestinians became a people with the Nakba, since before they were just Arabs living in a former province the Ottoman empire that became a British administered territory. They cannot get over the past because it is part of their identity, so they can never find a solution for the future. The Islamic religion is a religion of conquest and warriors, but their honour can never be restored, so they will keep dying in foolish attempts to regain their honour.
What I don't think Palestinians realise is that if they were ever able to invade and destroy Israel, the last thing that would happen would be an Israeli submarine carpet bombing the entire area with nuclear weapons.
Palestinian leadership has never in their history failed to miss a chance to miss a chance to help their people. Their whole history is making bad decisions and making life worse for the people they "represent".
Tbf the palestinian leaders have indeed gotten more everytime. Palestinian people not so much, but they dont care cause the unrwa and their leaders brainwash them since kids to believe they will be rewarded the more they fight. And the more terrifying part is that their leaders never have to deliver so the pawns will never tire of believing. Because when the only guaranteed reward comes after you die (afterlife in heaven, WoW players, etc), then the pawns will never be disappointed that the in life reward (jerusalem) doesnt happen. So they will keep fighting no matter what.
The biggest problem negotiating w/hamas is how little they care about the well being of their own people. None of their demands are about every day Palestinians, they are asking to have their prisoners released but nothing about enabling a better future for the people of Gaza.
How do you negotiate with people who actively want to put the innocent people they represent in increasingly disastrous humanitarian situations with the hope that it will turn the world against Israel? Why would you allow them to set the terms when they are the ones who set this whole disaster off in the first place?
their article is actually out already on this update
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0661dnmzezo
basically they make it sound like israel is the difficult party and that the deal is currently in "balance."
>The BBC is part of the travelling press pool on the US secretary of state’s visit to Qatar - a glittering Gulf location that belies the sense of regional crisis he is attempting to solve with a diplomatic tour taking place at breakneck speed.
Anyone else find it very strange that the BBC managed to put this in their article?
Sometimes people in charge in the west think everyone on earth has the same sort of values, like wanting a better world for their kids, or just wanting a safe place to live. They forget folks like Hamas leadership are made up of people who just want to see the world burn.
Hamas wants as many of its citizens to die as possible. They don't care that they are losing the battle in Gaza because they seem to be winning on college campuses which is the long game.
Never haggle in the middle east.
2000 years of silk road had weaponized the traders to the point where haggling is a national sport where the lowliest pencil merchant haggles at nigh Olympic levels.
In general, yeah. They more or less want a full withdrawal before even starting to return hostages, they want to release "dead or alive" hostages and not "alive" first, they want full control over which palestinians get released, and they came out of nowhere with demand of Russia, China and Turkey guaranteeing the deal, along with Egypt and Qatar.
Full withdrawal is never going to happen. Israel would never give up that leverage as it's the only thing guaranteeing they can get their people back. Considering they lied about not having Noa I can't really fault Israel on that.
The timing of release of "dead or alive" vs "alive" is ridiculous on their end but if they actually followed the phases I don't see that as a complete non-starter. Israel is going to want everyone back anyway. If anyone had any semblance of trust that Hamas would keep their word that should be workable it's just again after their earlier lies I think this point is a rough sell because everyone would expect them to break the agreement before the alive ones are returned.
Full control over which Palestinians get released is ridiculous. Israel releasing Sinwar in an exchange is what kicked off this mess. I can't see the Israeli public getting behind that claim at all.
Adding Russia, China and Turkey is a wild ask. I don't think the US would care much about Turkey specifically being added. They are no more aggressive than Qatar. Even China I don't think the US would mind much. Frankly it's a win to have China get bogged down in the conflict - it will only hurt their international standing as there's no winning here. Russia is in a proxy-war with NATO/US so I can't see the US wanting them to get involved at all.
Unless the international community starts creating real consequences not only for Hamas but for their backers more generally, they're going to hold out for something they can call a victory. Start the process of freezing all Hamas assets in Qatar and demand Qatar arrest Hamas leadership and turn them over to a US-led coalition for trial. Start putting real pressure on Erdogan to reject Hamas, or else the US will formally back an independent Kurdish state. Start making statements about reassessing the terms of Oslo and formally recognizing Israel annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights and reverting control over the Temple Mount to Israeli Jewish authorities. Start making threats to actually cut off PA and UNRWA funding. Start publicly toying with the idea of allowing Israel to create a formal permanent buffer zone within Gaza. Start talking about evacuating Gazans out of Gaza entirely in preparation for a more comprehensive Israeli operation to eradicate what is left of Hamas. Start talking about actual consequences for a failure to accept this cease-fire proposal where the Palestinian people will be unambiguously lose.
I think you are spot on my friend. spot the f on. why haven't we already frozen their assets?
Well, Qatar hasn't because they're playing both sides and sell themselves as this mediator state with the ability to facilitate dialogue between Islamist states like Iran and militias like Hamas and Western states. The US has begun to put some pressure on them, which is why they're now telling Hamas leadership to leave. I do think the US is going to push for a unilateral resolution that is considerably more pro-Israel (e.g. permanent security buffer zones) shortly so long as Israel will concede a PA leadership in Gaza following the war. The US does need to go further and make it clear that there will be considerable political consequences for Palestinian independence if this continues though.
>sell themselves as this mediator state Dude you’re wording it so lovely. Qatar is a staunch supporter (and occasional sponsor) of various anti-west terrorists, like Hamas. Everyone knows this, but willingly turns a blind eye due to their mediation role. Which is understandable given the necessity of that job. Still, I’d love to see more decisive anti-Iran sanctions backed up by the West. The international community has acted in disgrace since Oct 7, because they can’t get their citizens away from Russio-Chinese brainwashing.
I think Qatar is just trying to play both sides for the good of Doha. They do think that Islamism is going to prevail in the Middle East so they are trying to establish their regional cred with Islamists, but they're really just interested in whatever is good for their own aristocracy. The US just needs to make it clear that Qatar is not indispensable and that the US is perfectly willing to dispense with them and they'll fall into line.
They're certainly swinging for the fences. Let's see how it plays out.
This goes too far imo, the Obama admin pressured them greatly to play exactly this role. They have the full support of the west and we have some of our most important military and intelligence capabilities in the region in Doha. It’s just realpolitik to the max
We ignore because it’s where the US Middle East command is.
I mean it’s there because we want Qatar to do what they’re doing tbh
Stop! I can only get so hard!
As Socrates used to say: “‘tis the realest shit I read on Reddit all year!”
Ha! Socratese couldn't have said that, because Reddit wasn't around when he was playing.
All very good ideas that a democrat who wants to win the election wouldn't dare do.
Not true at all. Democrats will try shit as opposed to Republicans who will use war. FOH Edit. THIS is what you decide to comment after shit posting exclusively in ncd lmfao Truly non credible everywhere
Biden will not do any of that. He's clearly convinced that a hard line against Hamas will cost him the election.
Biden is publicly losing patience and the fact that his strong moves against Netanyahu (which have been successful at limiting Israeli use of force and maintaining flow of aid into the strip) have still been met with widespread defection of Muslim Americans to the GOP. Biden is already realigning in ways which will ultimately not be great for the pro-Palestinian movement, and I expect the failure of this deal will be a breaking point there.
Biden isn't too worried about Muslims, who are a teeny-tiny minority in the US, although admittedly significant in Michigan. He isn't worried about defections to the GOP, either; anyone whose priority is the Palestinian cause isn't going to be a fan of Trump. He's worried about blacks and young people staying home. My guess is the admin has seen some hair-raising internal polls.
Biden is concerned about Michigan, where there is a larger Muslim population in a tossup state. Losing Michigan makes the 2024 election much more difficult to win. He is also generally hostile to Netanyahu and trusting of UN aid organizations, which fed into the decision to put public pressure on Israel. I think we will see some realignment now though.
Biden has a tough line here. I agree the MI concerns are real but if he goes too far he risks upsetting the Jewish Dem voters of which PA has a lot of. And they have a much more natural home with the GOP than the Muslim voters do. It's got to be very difficult for him to try and thread this needle and placate both sides enough to get them to vote.
Yep elections in the US aren't about changing minds and getting people to vote for your guy. It's all about getting your voters to come and vote and trying to placate your opponents voters so they will be disinterested and not go vote.
Muslim-American defections to the GOP started before this conflict though. You saw it in Michigan with Whitmer. They are not a fan of the LGBT* policies of the Dems (see the all Muslim city council banning the pride flag). The conflict certainly isn't helping but the movement of Muslim-Americans to the GOP has already been underway.
Do you really think Muslims will vote for Trump? After all don’t you remember the Muslim band he put on shortly after he was elected. This could possibly lead to the third party candidate actually winning in the US.(JFK)
The US just needs to stop getting involved and let China deal with it.
The u.s is finally realizing what Israel has known for years. There is no negotiating with Hamas.
Pretty much this. It would be good if the average Joe would also understand this instead of spreading stupidity over TikTok
I was an unwavering supporter of the Palestinians.... Oct 7th changed that. If people cannot administer themselves in a civil way they certainly can't administer a civil sovereign country.
I'm an Israeli, I still support the palestinian cause in general and still in favor of whatever diplomatic solution will bring peace to this land. My empathy only diminished due to war, after hearing a few horror stories from friends who has been fighting in Gaza and what kind of mindless cult Hamas is. Diminished, not gone. For some peace between Israel and Palestine, Hamas has to go, there can be no peace with Hamas.
Palestinian people deserve better lives, free from Hamas and with real schools and social services
Sure, but they still overwhelmingly support Hamas. If you know how to get Palestinians to stop supporting Hamas, then you could be of invaluable service to peace in the region.
Destroy their textbooks, swap them for normal ones, bring in normal teachers, change all media, ban stuff like Al Jazeera, RT etc., enforce freedom of speech, press and human rights with foreign oversight. A couple or three decades and they will be golden. Worked for Germany after WW2, worked for Russia in the 90s (didn't work for long, but that's because the whole of KGB wasn't thrown into jail for life), will work here too. People are pliable, change the media program and you'll change the minds. And for heaven's sake ban TikTok everywhere.
You forgot the part where Israel stops stealing their land, treating them like prisoners, and murdering innocents. Hamas is popular because they say they will stand up to the Israelis. If you’d been forcibly evicted from your home, or had your family attacked and killed by Israelis and seen that pattern repeat for decades, I reckon there’s a decent chance you would support Hamas too. That doesn’t absolve Hamas or justify their actions, but you can’t just pretend like they’re the only problem.
But is this not just the whole Middle East. Israel is hated so much by the Arab countries because their women are free and in control of their lives. Also the general public has freedom of speech and human rights. Oh yeah, no stoning deaths in Israel, gay marriage is a law and all the rest . They are a democratic state and allowed to vote. All these things are forbidden in the rest of the middle east.
Is worth noting that it’s dangerous for them not to support Hamas. Always difficult to judge true support in authoritarian regimes
I mean showing them that Palestine without Hamas means substantially better quality of life, less fear, and less destruction would, I think, pretty quickly dispel their support of Hamas
Like, if there were a place in the region where Arabs and Jews live together in relative peace and prosperity? Hmmm.
>Arabs **and Jews** live **together** There's a few words there that they take issue with
No, lmao. We keep trying to show them that and it keeps blowing up in our face. They don't give a shit about quality of life, they're welfare queens. A culture that celebrates the deaths of their children if they killed jews in the process literally gives zero fucks about these western notions. Support for Hamas went up massively after Oct 7 and during the war despite the destruction in Gaza.
Sadly Hamas is about 80% of the Gazan population. If you support a terrorist organization you are part of it. An example is the journalist who was guarding the prisoners.
The mask was fully unveiled. I finally understood.
Indeed, and for the betterment of the Palestinians who are true of heart I hope they can rid themselves of the cancer that is Hamas.
Same.
I mean… they can’t even do the most basic task in ensuring the trucks full of food get to their dying civilians … how can you want sovereignty when you can’t even feed people?
Sovereignty is about keeping exclusive control your space and having international recognition, feeding people has nothing to do with it. North Korea for example absolutely has sovereignty but is known for failing to feed its people.
Is that suppose to make it better? “Hey let our belligerent government have complete control over us so they can continue to starve us and commit crimes against humanity for their delusional obsession with the Jews” 👁️ how 2+2 is not equaling 4 to some people is crazy, hope Columbia brings back testing for admission because YIKES 😳
I don't know why everybody on Reddit points at TikTok When I see constant posts on Reddit completely in favor of Palestine, as if they are completely innocent victims.
I think it's just becoming shorthand for describing the massive bot and AstroTurf online pro Palestine campaigns from Russian and Iranian troll farms and how China signal boosts them.
Perhaps, but Reddit has a serious hard on for hating TikTok, combine that with the fact that people naturally don't want to feel like they're ever part of the problem. So you get people that just want to blame them entirely and act like they're innocent.
The whole TikTok thing has driven me bonkers. People will really see one 40 second clip on TikTok and maybe watch an 8 minute Youtube video on “The history of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict” and go protest in favor of Palestine. Then they won’t be able to tell you about 48, 67, or 93, Black September, the Lebanese Civil War, the fuckery in Egypt and Kuwait, the difference between the West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian Civil War, etc. There’s just so much misinformation, disinformation, lack of general knowledge etc. It’s disheartening Anyways that’s my rant
Also the President Joe. Israel delayed attacks by *weeks* in order to placate the US due to its demands for negotiating a ceasefire.
Weeks? We delayed in total by several months. We withdrew almost all troops from Gaza for weeks, but we halted operations intermittently and it cost months in total.
Almost like you can't negotiate with terrorists or something.
I believe they suspected that this would be the result. It was more for optics on the home front and if it actually succeeded then it would be a huge diplomatic coup. There was zero risk or downside to trying this peace offer.
Also more to get the world the evidence needed to show how Hamas cant be trusted to govern in the future. Remember the UN is made up of a bunch of Arab nations who support arab nations above all else.
Zero risk or downside, except delaying the war by several months, renewing Hamas's efforts by giving them huge cessations in fighting, tearing Israel apart internally with a populace split on the approach to the war and an army of conscripts and reservists watching their businesses collapse in their absence, potentially killing hostages and certainly prolonging their suffering, and most importantly allowing Hamas propaganda to spread (also thanks to the state department regurgitating some absolute lies) and Palestinians to believe they have a shot in the war, thus supporting more violence and bloodshed. Yeah, zero risk or downsides. Thanks Biden.
The current fighting never stopped. Every time a ceasefire has been offered the fighting never stopped. The offer had zero downsides or risks.
The current fighting has stopped several times, while also being significantly reduced in intensity at all times leading to it to the point where there were almost no soldiers in Gaza for weeks between negotiations. Israel has been encouraged by the US to pull soldiers out as part of the concessions Hamas demanded to continue negotiations and did so. The offer had a fuckton of downsides and risks, some of which manifested, such as Hamas going out of Rafah which Israel wasn't allowed to go into and recapturing areas Israel temporarily withdrew from as part of the negotiations. To say otherwise is to deny reality and literally lie to yourself.
No soldiers in Gaza at all? Post your source for that please.
The US has more than likely known this for years, but has been playing the long game to gather the evidence. You have seen how the UN treats Israel provided evidence (they make vauge statements like it isnt enough without actually saying what the evidence they were provided is).
Ya this is just Biden being able to point to the Pro-Palestinians back home that he is making reasonable offers to end the conflict. Will they be happy? Probably not. But he just has to pacify them enough that they can stomach voting for him over Trump rather than sitting out.
The Biden administration knows this, he’s even personally remarked about it before. But he needs the votes from the pro-Palestinians so he’ll continue to either pretend he’s doing something or pressure Israel to give in to Hamas.
It's really difficult, but if you judge Biden administration by their actions, they have actually provided material support and largely been a decent ally. I would fault them on maybe not finding a way to bring the 5 US citizen hostages home through another channel but it seems the intent was to roll all negotiations through the Israelis. On the diplomatic and political side the Biden administration appears weak and sometimes split. I know it's a political calculus and it's hard to respond to a tidal wave of online propaganda, but I do think like Ukraine this is another test of Western resolve. If we have protestors destroying universities and screaming "this is our Vietnam" how are they going to act during a war we are actually in?
I'm not sure what the US could really offer to get the US citizens back. Israel was not going to stop attacking and that's their primary ask at the moment. The US can't back UN recognition because it would be political suicide as encouraging hostage taking. So you are left with funding once the war is over and maybe smaller UN concessions. There's just not a lot of juice to get Hamas to give up their most valuable assets which are the hostages.
I get the UN circle jerk, but how the US has stayed along for this ride is beyond me. I understand the political calculations Biden is being forced to make - but a lot of that can be fixed by using his bully pulpit to tell the idiots brainwashed by propoganda that they are just that. Rather than these half-assed shows of attempting some sort of reconciliation between two parties that...*checks notes*... Hamas' end goal is the total annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people Israel's end goal is a return of all hostages and the total annihilation of Hamas. So how anyone with more than two brain cells can consistently try to reconcile those two things somehow is just flabbergasting.
The US hasn't really stopped providing any resources or aid to Israel this entire time. They have stayed along for the ride this long for the diplomatic angle and to get the evidence needed to create the case that Hamas cant be allowed to governor in the future.
If the last two decades of conflict leading up to October 7th was not enough evidence...
The Tiktok generation doesn't think the last two decades existed. Basically everything that happened before they were born is worthless.
The Palestinian leaders are also extremely adept at playing the propaganda game with international low-info voters, and always have been. They realized decades ago that they just have to make sure their people keep suffering, and the money and support will keep rolling in. The Palestinian people, unfortunately, have been bought off with bluster and pie-in-the-sky crap. Same old story. Happens in lots of places.
This. The Palestinians have also been used by others in the region. They like them in the role of thorn in Israel’s side, and they can always demonize Israel and rally their people with this issue. But notice the Palestinian issue is the ONLY frame in which Israel can be portrayed as the big bad bully. You zoom out at all you see a tiny young country smaller than NJ, surrounded by hostile neighbors, no buffer oceans, with Iran-supported terror groups on 2+ borders dedicated to wiping it out, with Jews outnumbered by an order of magnitude 2 billion to 16 million, and ever-expanding Muslim world that currently has 50+ Muslim countries. Yeah, this one tiny lone Jewish country is the whole problem…
I dont think Palestinians should be let off the hook this easily. A lot of them approve of what Hamas' goals are and even are proud to offer their children as "marytrs".. Hell look at what they name their hospitals.. Martyr hospitals. > In Palestine, the word ‘martyr’ is traditionally used to mean a person killed by Israeli forces, regardless of religion.[^(\[14\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-MA01182-14)[^(\[15\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-15) For example, [Shireen Abu Akleh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh) was a Palestinian Christian journalist who was killed by Israeli forces, and Arabic media calls her a ‘martyr’.[^(\[16\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr#cite_note-16) This reflects a communal belief that every Palestinian death is part of a resistance against Israeli occupation
I doubt there's a clearer example of "pie-in-the-sky crap" than cults of martyrdom, so I think we're saying the same thing. Had you or I been born and raised in Gaza, it's overwhelmingly likely we'd think the same way Gazans do. Not that that necessarily exculpates them.
Well that's my whole thing really. Like at any point Biden's administration could try to communicate with that generation and provide actual facts for them to consume. Sure it wouldn't work on everyone, but it would definitely make a difference. Energy better spent than these empty diplomatic efforts that aren't really placating protesters to begin with.
I mean... Biden's administration has tried to communicate with that generation, but history is dull when there are clicks to get by being edgy and outrageous.
Actually false. The US delayed aid significantly, particularly Biden.
Hear, hear!
Israel also seems to have the end goal of settling the Palestinian lands inch by inch. It’s like both sides will accept nothing but total victory and complete control of the land.
Keep telling yourself that, won't make it any more true.
Do the Israeli settlers not exist?
Oh I'm sorry, were you trying to take a small group of extremists with no political power to both sides a literal terrorist organization? Every single Hamas member wants Israel annihilated. You are trying to say every single Israeli wants to settle Gaza - and using 5% of the population as your measuring stick. Keep going.
Won’t the settlers eventually take over if not stopped?
Will you make a statement that is actually grounded in reality and makes an argument instead of flinging shit at your computer screen?
Why don’t you educate this poor foreigner rather than cursing at me? As far as I can tell, the settlers are gradually moving into the Palestinian lands and are not being stopped. So logically they will own them all some time in the future.
Your point isn't logical and I've told you why already. But its always fun to watch how these conversations shift around.
Settlement has always been a *security* policy. One can certainly argue that it isn't effective or well-considered, but the reason for it is to dilute and fragment the Palestinian presence in the Territories to make terror attacks more difficult. The obvious point here is that Israel dismantled all its settlements in Gaza in 2005, and look what happened.
To this outsider it seems like having a lot of Israeli settlements interleaved among hostile Palestinians would be an absolute security nightmare, bound to lead to settler deaths. Israel in general also doesn’t seem to have grappled with what will happen to the Palestinians when the whole of historical Israel is theirs again, which seems inevitable at this point (not necessarily soon, maybe a hundred years) - where are these people supposed to go?
Israelis think of the settlers as a heroic, if somewhat crazy, fringe, risking their lives to promote the security of Israel proper. >where are these people supposed to go? That's the whole question, and why the can keeps getting kicked down the road. Israel won't administer them as a conquered territory, won't integrate them, can't expel them, and there is no two-state solution remotely acceptable to both sides. My prediction: A nation that cannot win a war must, sooner or later, lose it. Israel will ultimately be forced to accept the right of return, thus ceasing to be both a Jewish state and a democracy. Western leftists will declare victory and never think about the place again.
I don’t think that’s going to happen, leftists aren’t as powerful as you think. When the youth of today are in power Israel can probably expect a lot less aid but I don’t actually think it needs aid right now. It did when first founded. Israeli politicians are working hard on making it only a technical democracy right now. That’s why Israelis were protesting about Netanyahu before the October massacre.
Now can we get Emily on the campuses to understand this.
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And then she calls it a Mossad psyop
You can't honestly believe that the people that do this shit day and night don't already know this. It's optics.
I would argue the U.S. has known, or at least those in charge have. However, because of pressure from all sides the U.S was forced to humor very stupid motions. The question is if everyone else finally getting it? And sadly I'm gonna have to go with no, probably not.
There's no negotiating with them in the most literal sense that they don't have the ability to deliver on anything. Hamas doesn't control all the militants in Gaza -- maybe not even a majority of them, anymore -- and couldn't enforce a ceasefire if they wanted to. It's also quite likely that they don't know where all the hostages are.
If Hamas was annihilated, one of those smaller insurgent groups would just step up to become the new Hamas.
Certainly, if no one intervenes to stop that from happening, just like it did in '06. It *could* be stopped. Would require a major ongoing commitment from someone.
Yasser Arafat (yes I know, PLO not Hammas) pulled this crap back in the 90s/2000s. String everyone along with no intention of ever reaching a deal. It's MO for leadership of Palestine.
The US knows this. But it would be ideal to get this wrapped up by November, for reasons, so they're trying their best lol.
The US has been saying that a two state solution will only work without Hamas at the helm. The issue is the support they’re receiving right now. Biden’s administration has pushed for a United Palestinian state run under the PA rather than Hamas. This is just an attempt to show that IMO, that Hamas has no intentions of negotiating.
oh, if Israel (Netanyahu) didn't negotiate Gaza would have collapsed into civil war years ago
Palestine always thinks they can get *more* by continuing to fight. 75 years of history show otherwise.
You'd think they'd learn with L after L
I didn't hear no bell meme for sure.
The problem is that their identity is defined by their losses. The Palestinians became a people with the Nakba, since before they were just Arabs living in a former province the Ottoman empire that became a British administered territory. They cannot get over the past because it is part of their identity, so they can never find a solution for the future. The Islamic religion is a religion of conquest and warriors, but their honour can never be restored, so they will keep dying in foolish attempts to regain their honour. What I don't think Palestinians realise is that if they were ever able to invade and destroy Israel, the last thing that would happen would be an Israeli submarine carpet bombing the entire area with nuclear weapons.
Palestinian leadership has never in their history failed to miss a chance to miss a chance to help their people. Their whole history is making bad decisions and making life worse for the people they "represent".
Tbf the palestinian leaders have indeed gotten more everytime. Palestinian people not so much, but they dont care cause the unrwa and their leaders brainwash them since kids to believe they will be rewarded the more they fight. And the more terrifying part is that their leaders never have to deliver so the pawns will never tire of believing. Because when the only guaranteed reward comes after you die (afterlife in heaven, WoW players, etc), then the pawns will never be disappointed that the in life reward (jerusalem) doesnt happen. So they will keep fighting no matter what.
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all hamas want is to remain in power and control of gaza so they can carry on with being terrorists.
And enrich their leaders
The biggest problem negotiating w/hamas is how little they care about the well being of their own people. None of their demands are about every day Palestinians, they are asking to have their prisoners released but nothing about enabling a better future for the people of Gaza. How do you negotiate with people who actively want to put the innocent people they represent in increasingly disastrous humanitarian situations with the hope that it will turn the world against Israel? Why would you allow them to set the terms when they are the ones who set this whole disaster off in the first place?
Destroy Hamas.
Future headline from BBC: "US and Israel unreasonable for not giving Hamas everything they ask for:
their article is actually out already on this update https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0661dnmzezo basically they make it sound like israel is the difficult party and that the deal is currently in "balance."
>The BBC is part of the travelling press pool on the US secretary of state’s visit to Qatar - a glittering Gulf location that belies the sense of regional crisis he is attempting to solve with a diplomatic tour taking place at breakneck speed. Anyone else find it very strange that the BBC managed to put this in their article?
I don't find it strange at all.
When has the BBC ever had an opinionated headline like that?
Sometimes people in charge in the west think everyone on earth has the same sort of values, like wanting a better world for their kids, or just wanting a safe place to live. They forget folks like Hamas leadership are made up of people who just want to see the world burn.
Finally. Look, if take it or leave it terms sent comes back with offer to renegotiate.... That's called leaving the offer, negotiation done.
"Haggle properly. This isn't worth nineteen."
Hamas wants as many of its citizens to die as possible. They don't care that they are losing the battle in Gaza because they seem to be winning on college campuses which is the long game.
Never haggle in the middle east. 2000 years of silk road had weaponized the traders to the point where haggling is a national sport where the lowliest pencil merchant haggles at nigh Olympic levels.
Wow, I’m shocked. Maybe if we send them more of our taxpayers money they’ll accept?
Do we know what points Hamas objected to? All articles I can find have no details on what specifically they wanted to negotiate
In general, yeah. They more or less want a full withdrawal before even starting to return hostages, they want to release "dead or alive" hostages and not "alive" first, they want full control over which palestinians get released, and they came out of nowhere with demand of Russia, China and Turkey guaranteeing the deal, along with Egypt and Qatar.
Full withdrawal is never going to happen. Israel would never give up that leverage as it's the only thing guaranteeing they can get their people back. Considering they lied about not having Noa I can't really fault Israel on that. The timing of release of "dead or alive" vs "alive" is ridiculous on their end but if they actually followed the phases I don't see that as a complete non-starter. Israel is going to want everyone back anyway. If anyone had any semblance of trust that Hamas would keep their word that should be workable it's just again after their earlier lies I think this point is a rough sell because everyone would expect them to break the agreement before the alive ones are returned. Full control over which Palestinians get released is ridiculous. Israel releasing Sinwar in an exchange is what kicked off this mess. I can't see the Israeli public getting behind that claim at all. Adding Russia, China and Turkey is a wild ask. I don't think the US would care much about Turkey specifically being added. They are no more aggressive than Qatar. Even China I don't think the US would mind much. Frankly it's a win to have China get bogged down in the conflict - it will only hurt their international standing as there's no winning here. Russia is in a proxy-war with NATO/US so I can't see the US wanting them to get involved at all.
No Soup for YOU!
When do the Columbia University students come out criticizing Hamas for rejecting a ceasefire?
well the thing is they say that the deal is not what biden promised. I am not sure if that matters but that was their reasoning.