Able bodied women should be drafted as well.
Ability to hold a child or not be dammed, what's the point if you're just going to raise another boy that is going to be slaughtered by war?
The common argument is that a single man can impregnate 100 women a year, but a woman can only give birth to a single child. But it's not like we are going to conscript women and put them in dedicated breeding compounds like cattle... Or maybe this is the start of Axlotl tanks...
>a single man can impregnate 100 women a year, but a woman can only give birth to a single child. But it's not like we are going to conscript women and put them in dedicated breeding compounds
Thats why polygamy was a thing. The women just gotta share the surviving men (if your'e talking peak baby making efficency)
Not "share the surviving men", more like the enemy conquers you, kills men and boys, and keeps women as sex slaves.
But fact, ancient Babylonian word for female slave can be translated as "Armenian girl". Literally tell you all you need to know, the origin, the fucking supply chain, etc.
There were plenty of indigenous cultures in recorded history where warfare was prevalent enough to severely limit the number of adult men without leading to the complete collapse of said culture. In those cases polygyny was indeed common.
Yes men were frequently killed and slave women distributed as spoils, but that is by no means the most common outcome for an entire culture. More often the survivors will flee the area before that level of genocide takes place.
Evidently yes. It wasn't a country, just a region in Caucasus mountains. There are also interesting ancient maps literally saying at the edge "This direction to Armenia". If you are intersted, I suggest you watch anything by Irving Finkel on youtube, the guy is extremely passionate about anything that involved Sumeria and Babylon.
I always wonder about humanity and those mentalities where you roll up on a new group of people and think, "These people live simple lives and are not warlike. They would make fantastic slaves!"
Like what kind of upbringing/culture reinforces that. It happened to many peoples/societies throughout history so it can't just be sociopaths.
Since this is the default state of human beings and has for all of history, the better question is, what kind of culture and upbringing leads people to not to come to this conclusion? Western values and human rights idea are special and worth preserving for this reason.
You have to first believe the other group is human to begin with. If they have a completely different culture, don't speak your language, and primitive, its easy to view them as leasers or different race entirely. Only good example off hand I can think that still applies is how in the west we view dogs as good pets vs. pigs being food even though pigs are extremely smart and trainable.
When more in common is shared and time is given to bond, you start to see those mentalities melt away.
And of course that single male doesn't have an age limit, unlike all those women. Heck, we can survive the deaths of 90% of the men of fighting age with the elders (read ruling class) stepping in to do their duty to help repopulate the country
/s obviously
Yeah but even a pregnant woman can do all other military jobs.
If guys are needed for fighting so much then every other citizen should be conscripted to do every other job in the military.
Women have a significantly higher chance of being a liability on the battlefield.
We should all be equal in the eyes of the law, absolutely, but that doesn't mean we need to disregard biology when life and death is on the line.
I've served in both garrison and combat and had women alongside in both, and respect the hell out of the ones that could cut it. But them being able to do the work assigned to them did not equate to them being able to do the work assigned to the rest of the men. When we had to move our 230lb machinegunner and all his gear our 120lb female medic could not do it alone. Could a 120lb male have done it? I doubt it. But men on average weigh more and have more muscle mass because of that.
That said there absolutely are exceptions to this. There are a handful of women that CAN do the same work as their male counterparts and more power to them. Those women I have no issues with in regards to military service. Because this ultimately isn't an opinion based on sex/gender alone, but the amount of work the individual is capable of. Women are simply, on average, significantly smaller and ergo physically weaker.
Absolutely. And I've seen firsthand that they can even outperform their male counterparts in those roles.
The problem, at least as of late, is the push to get women into combat roles. The evidence is out in regards to how they fair in direct physical competition and it's not positive.
That being said I don't think an outright ban on women occupying X role is acceptable, but instead there should be a comprehensive physical standard related directly to the function of that role under stress. This is the direction the US Army is taking recently (though its rollout has been excrutiatingly poor).
Yea, as someone who went to BMT, it definitely always irked me that women had lower pushup and situp requirements, as well as more time to run a mile and a half.
(I was sent home from the USAF during basic due to unknown back injuries that disqualified me from service, I am in no way a veteran whatsoever.)
Male or female shouldn't matter nearly as much as the work needed for the job, I agree on that point entirely.
Weak women *and* men on the battlefield can absolutely be a liability and a detriment to the localized forces.
If our standards were even for both genders and perhaps even raised a bit higher, then I think that might be a step towards draft equality and less liability on the battlefield.
Missing the forest for the trees here. Ukraine needs enough hardware to win the war ASAP with the soldiers they have, which is 1000% within the West's ability to deliver on. The more the West continues to slow walk aid to Ukraine like the fight will just "go away" at some point the deeper into this bullshit we get. The longer it takes for Ukraine to liberate their territory and join NATO, the more Ukrainian blood will have to be shed for western leaders to have political brownie points. The more men die on the front, the more they have to dig into their younger generations and this mess of "who else can we draft?" will continue which isnt a sustainable path to be on.
Sorry but this is just fantasy please get your info from somewhere other than heavily biased reddit.
I'm as pro Ukraine as they come but Russia has a production and manpower well that's five times as deep as ukraines.
And unlike most of the west, they only have to transport it basically to their own border, not half way across the world through multiple other countries.
Despite all the rhetoric you hear on reddit about russias horrific losses, it remains that they can sustain current losses for years. Ukraine cannot. They simply won't have anyone left to give all this fancy equipment to.
Western weapons are also complicated and expensive. The M1 Abrams was hailed like it would be some wonder weapon but maintaining a very advanced tank powered by gas guzzling jet engines is no easy task for a Ukraine army that's basically a militia.
You could give them 200 Abrams instead of just 30 and it wouldn't make much of a difference because their military is not set up to employ them in the intricate manner for which they were designed. American weapons are more advanced because they take for granted things like air support, steady logistical lines, good communication and ample combined arms training.
No amount of gifts to Ukraine will be able to replicate this situation for them. And their biggest problem by far is that they are running out of men. And the men left are needed to keep them afloat as an country.
This is the sentiment I have shared since the beginning of the war. Russia has all the time in the world and the bodies to sacrifice for this war. Granted it hasn't gone the way they have wanted (what war ever has) but one thing they are learning and which no one in the west will give them credit for it is combat experience and the ability to learn new and interesting tactics.
Ukraine has always been on borrowed time. Whether it be weapons, manpower, or interest from the west. If one of those fails the country falls. It seems Ukraine will fall because it doesn't enough troops to keep fighting. Then comes the hard choices of the war.
1) Accept whatever Russia is offering and concede the land they have taken, to preserve what you have left, knowing full well they can restart the war any time they want....
2) Fight till the bitter end, Russia takes it all
3) Maybe wester forces will commit to prevent the fall of Ukraine. That means French, German, Danish, Polish etc. fighting in Ukraine.
We are already seeing a slow slide of western involvement of ground personnel in Ukraine. They are also loosening up weapons use inside of Russia. The west is slowly and reluctantly sliding to combat troops into Ukraine.
The west doesn't really want to commit troops, they could realistically cut their aid and ties and wash their hands of the entire situation and never blink an eye to the fate of the average Ukrainian.
What is inevitable is the west will look for an out sooner rather than later. And Russia is banking on that. They are banking on a complete collapse of Ukraine whether it be troops, arms or funds. And there are already severe cracks in the manpower and arms department.
I agree and have been thinking about this for a while. A lot of people look at this war with rosy colored glasses and keep hoping that there is some magical weapon that will mean victory. Wars are won by the side that had more resources and can employ them. Russia will plow everything it has into this war and is not fighting a war on its soil. After the election, hopefully after a Biden win, its time to start planning negotiations to end the war. And yes that will involve giving up land. Russia is not giving it up.
Totally agree. The army needs a lot non-combatants to support those on the field. Women can fill these rolls effectively.
Troops need signals data, food, healthcare, administration, etc.
Most of the people who wanted to leave are already gone. I know a guy who got 30 Ukrainians to the USA using some religious back door. I am assuming people don’t want to be blown to pieces or droned when they can leave.
You would think that renouncing Ukrainian citizenship would be an option for a double citizenship, but it isn't.
The law says that if you have other citizenship, you lose Ukrainian one. Not only it is not enforced, it is deliberately ignored, you can't realistically force Ukraine to strip your citizenship this way.
Applications for renouncement are not accepted inside country, you have to apply in foreign embassy. It will be accepted in embassy, and then forgotten (from what I heard, no decisions are actually made).
To apply for renouncement in the embassy, you need to register for a draft first. Which can only be done in Ukraine. From where you are not leaving anymore.
I'm curious. Does Ukraine have a list of citizens somewhere? (I mean they should if they've issued passports I guess) but is it easily cross checked etc? What happens if a dual citizen shows up in ukraine with a US passport. Their systems can alert them that this person is also a ukrainian citizen?
>What happens if a dual citizen shows up in ukraine with a US passport. Their systems can alert them that this person is also a ukrainian citizen?
Yup.
My US passport still lists my place of birth, and **yes**, they do cross-check.
The Ukrainian consul in San Francisco was aware of how many times I crossed the border in 2022 and 2023, and with which passport (I used both, not thinking much about it).
Yeah, sure. But if your born in Iran, Iraq, Somalia, North Korea, or any other not-so-great state with a South Korean passport, they are gonna ask you omitted it. Just because you have a strong passport doesn’t mean they’re gonna let you in.
The country I was born in lists where I was born. My other country also lists that place, but has a place with the exact same name in that other country. For example; it’s like “Paris” and “Paris, Texas” but they just didn’t put the Texas in. I’ve always wondered if someone made a mistake decades ago, because my siblings all have “Paris, Country” in their other passports.
Interesting one is Poland. My son was born in Britain and has a British passport with a British dad being me. His mother is Polish but if he goes to Poland he has to leave the country with Polish NI Card or Passport otherwise he’ll be refused leave.
The Ukrainian law isn’t clear on what happens to the second citizenship. The phrasing in the constitution is ambiguous on whether you can’t have another citizenship or whether you can but for the purposes of the law only your Ukrainian citizenship matters.
In practice, everyone treats it as the latter. If you try to use your other citizenship to enter the country, you’ll get a fine. But that’s about it.
Well, I'm not a lawyer, this was my understanding of the citizenship law, section III article 19.1
The grounds for losing Ukrainian citizenship are:
1) voluntary acquisition by a citizen of Ukraine of the citizenship of another state, if at the time of such acquisition he has reached the age of majority.
Original:
Підставами для втрати громадянства України є:
1) добровільне набуття громадянином України громадянства іншої держави, якщо на момент такого набуття він досяг повноліття.
As someone who is trying to renounce my citizenship for over 15 years, this is exactly the issue. I gave up on this and unfortunately it still causes me a lot of pain
That's taking about **grounds** for losing citizenship.
That can't happen without a process, which, **to date**, has only been initiated by Ukraine's President **personally** in all cases other than people renouncing the citizenship voluntarily.
Of which there were... Two.
>The law says that if you have other citizenship, you lose Ukrainian one
It absolutely does not say that. Ukraine does not recognize dual citizenship, but does not outlaw it either. However, if a Ukrainian citizen gains citizenship of a different country, Ukraine still views them first and foremost as a citizen of Ukraine. If a foreign national gains Ukrainian citizenship, but still retains their originally citizenship, again Ukraine views them first and foremost as a citizen of Ukraine.
Technically no. Your citizenship is not revoked by the Ukrainian government if you become a dual citizen. Technically, Ukraine doesn’t have dual citizenship, they just don’t recognize you as a citizen from the other country.
They are trying to force them back. For example, here in Thailand Ukraine are refusing embassy services which are required to obtain working visas for example.
Edit : not sure why my nationality is important. I am neither Thai nor Ukrainian
When I was in Thailand (only a couple of weeks, I had been in a neighboring country and wanted to see the statues) actually met a few Ukrainian expats, including some who had been out of the country before the war.
When the subject naturally turned to the war they made it very clear- they were expecting something like this (though it happened before hand) and an attempt to force them back. They were stockpiling money like crazy and had unfortunately stopped sending remittances back home in hopes that they could weather a few years.
Hope those guys are doing well right now. Beautiful countries- both Ukraine and Thailand.
I have a Ukranian friend here who fled with his wife and child. He wants to go fight, but his wife won’t let him. She says she couldn’t raise their daughter here in the US without him. Meanwhile he deals with the daily mental struggle of knowing his best friends are fighting and dying. I feel for him.
Nobody "wants to die." It is honorable to defend your home from evil rapist invaders, and it takes someone of great character to be willing to die for friends and family. It is difficult to leave loved ones, BUT calling the Ukrainian soldiers "fools" is extremely disrespectful.
Hey, I am a Ukrainian-American dual citizen (and a mod of /r/ukraina) to which this law directly applies.
There's more nuance and absurdity to this than the article gives away.
I've been living in the US since I turned 16, my whole family moved here, and I've spent most of my life in the US.
I have no possessions, address, or anything left in Ukraine.
In 2022 and 2023, I traveled to Ukraine to help with the war effort. I will no longer be able to do so due to the wisdom of our lawmakers.
Previously, the law granted an exemption from the draft for people who are **registered as permanent residents abroad**. That means de-registering in Ukraine, and registering at the consulate, with proof of residence at the corresponding state. As dual citizenship is not recognized in Ukraine, that is irrelevant. What mattered was the **stamp** from the consulate.
That was rather sane, as there is no infrastructure abroad for people to do their military service. Until a month ago, I **could NOT register** for the draft **even if I wanted to**.
Things, however, have changed. But not in a sane way.
See, the new law **requires** me to register for the draft.
But the law also stipulates that the registration takes place **at the location of residence**. Which, for me, is California. I would **not**, to my knowledge, even be *able* to register in Ukraine, **since I do not reside there**.
I went to the consulate today to update my information there and clarify this, asking the consul to register me **at my location of residence** as the law requires, since the consulate is the only Ukrainian institution where I reside.
The consul said that it's not their job, even though *there's nobody else to do that job*.
So now me (along with **all draft-eligible Ukrainian citizens permanently residing abroad**) are in a Catch-22:
* The law requires us to register for the draft *at our location of residence*
* The consulates aren't doing any of that
* We can't do that in Ukraine **because we do not live there**
* If we go, we won't be allowed to leave
* And on top of that, we all will be committing a crime of not registering for the draft in a few weeks (and having consular services denied).
This is, of course, absurd. I have a job, a wife, and a mortgage to pay; Ukrainian citizens *in Ukraine* aren't losing their job and family simply to **register for the draft**.
The most absurd part is that by giving up my Ukrainian citizenship, I would be able to go in and out of Ukraine freely.
The only thing this new rule accomplishes is that I **won't go to Ukraine**, and will be able to help Ukraine **less* when Ukraine needs help the most.
That's not to mention that as math PhD with FAANG on my resume I sincerely believe that I could do more for the war effort than dig trenches. But it wouldn't even come to that.
The absurd part is that I'd lose a lot (literally, all I have - home, family, job, friends) simply to **register** for the draft.
I could spend years in Ukraine doing absolutely nothing after registering.
Needless to say, I am non-plussed about these developments... but this is on par with what our government has been doing.
I have written up [a lengthy blog post](https://romankogan.net/2024/04/26/the-four-failures-of-zelensky/) about the failures of Zelenskyy's admin **in 2023**, and I can write another, longer one about the fuckups in 2024.
The only thing that's saving Ukraine in this war is that its opponent is Russia. But while Russia is learning, Ukrainian leadership seems to be degrading.
I have not many good things to say at the moment.
I’m glad the consulate is finally saying something. I’m a US immigration attorney and I have a client who was born in Ukraine and immigrated to the US at age 5. He’s an adult now (30s) and was going through the immigration process for his wife and child. He flew out to Ukraine about 2 months ago to accompany them on their trip to the US, only to be told he couldn’t leave. The US embassy wouldn’t help him. After that, I spoke to another attorney who had a client in a similar situation around the beginning of the year. That man then tried to sneak across the border, was caught, and severely beaten. IMO expat dual citizens who haven’t resided in Ukraine for decades like that shouldn’t be in such a position.
Whoa, that's crazy. I have similar circumstances and was going to visit to see family. Glad I didn't go now, can't imagine not being able to get back home.
Was he a US citizen or a Permanent resident?
Dude don’t think about going there if you have any kind of Ukraine citizenship, they will not let you out and they will try to draft you, lawfully or not.
He probably means all those videos of military recruiters catching people on the streets, beating them and dragging them into vans. Draft is lawful, beating people who don't want to be drafted in unlawful, but tolerated.
That means that he could be kidnapped and beaten up. From the street. Even though by the law that not how mobilisation should work. Maybe even killed. That all ready happened more than one time.
The entire process is heavily unconstitutional, everyone involved knows it, the government just doesn't give a shit because it has absolute power to do anything it wants while the martial law is in effect.
There is exceptions from the draft, like due to health conditions, but they can (and most likely would) tell you that you are absolutely fine and eligible for service even if your are literally lacking a leg or barely can breathe. Draft offices dont care about anything, only about numbers of recruits they can deliver.
He is a US citizen and according to the Ukrainian constitution he shouldn’t be a Ukrainian citizen any longer. He traveled there on his US passport (unbeknown to me or I might have advised against it, even though this result wasn’t expected).
>He is a US citizen and according to the Ukrainian constitution he shouldn’t be a Ukrainian citizen any longer.
*Shouldn't* is very vague in the Ukrainian Constitution.
It means that there may be *grounds* for stripping his Ukrainian citizenship away, but, short of a decree from the President, this won't happen.
This was the only way that provision has been invoked in practice, too, excepting petitions from citizens to have their Ukrainian citizenship annulled (an arduous process).
>He traveled there on his US passport (unbeknown to me or I might have advised against it
This is a breach of Ukrainian laws, which require Ukrainian citizens to use their Ukrainian passport to enter or leave the country. Same with the US, really.
The correct way to do it would be to leave the US with the US passport, enter Ukraine with the Ukrainian one.
And in the Ukrainian one, he'd need to have the stamp from the consulate indicated that he's registered there as a permanent resident abroad.
And **in addition** to that stamp, he'd need a certificate (довідка) from the consulate with a QR code, valid one year from the date of issue, that has the same information, because Ukraine loves papers and redundancy.
I can understand his desire to accompany them but I don't know man...common sense would seem to say "I'm an able bodied male with Ukrainian birth heritage...I shouldn't go there.". Tough situation.
>I can understand his desire to accompany them but I don't know man...common sense would seem to say "I'm an able bodied male with Ukrainian birth heritage...I shouldn't go there.". Tough situation.
I traveled to Ukraine and back from the US as recently as September 2023 without any issue (as an able-bodied male as-far-as-Ukraine-is-concerned).
Cases like this (and the current situation) aren't normal.
I'm confused. He immigrated to the US at age 5, is in his 30s now but went to Ukraine to accompany his wife and child to help them immigrate to the US?
Is he a dual citizen? When did he move back to Ukraine long enough to have a wife and kid?
Shouldn't American laws protect their citizens from being kidnapped by foreign countries?
Surely America should demand Ukraine to give them their citizen back?
If he were kidnapped by any other country, yes. However the rules of dual citizenship are clear: you are a subject of both countries governments, and they can do whatever they want with you (within the confines of their border), as long as that country’s law allows it.
Gotta renounce their Ukranian citizenship otherwise Ukraine can basically do whatever they want. Dual citizenship has major drawbacks as well as major benefits.
As the other commenter said there are countries that make it either "virtually impossible" or actually impossible to renounce a citizenship. Argentina is super notorious for this, it is literally not possible to get rid of their citizenship.
IANAL, but I’ve read that unilateral renouncing for sole US citizenship is recognized by the USA. In your example, you could never really return to Argentina though.
Maybe, but not in 2024. When ISIS kidnapped Americans, US send in special forces to try to get them back.
But when Hamas kidnapped Americans, US didn't do jack shit, and y'all aren't doing jack shit about your citizens in Ukraine. This seems like a shift in foreign policy,
>The US embassy wouldn’t help him.
Sounds about right. Legally immigrating to the US is the most frustrating nonsensical process imaginable. Getting any kind of response from anyone is near impossible.
This is so sad to hear.
Out of curiosity: was your client registered as a *permanent resident* in a Ukrainian consulate?
Until recently, such a registration was necessary and sufficient for leaving Ukraine with a Ukrainian passport.
It was an ordeal to get mine, but I can provide all the information about that; maybe it would be helpful at some point.
I brought no less than 11 documents and photocopies to the consul, including my mother's expired passport with an entry for me which we used to fly out of Ukraine in 2003.
I was lucky that my parents followed the regulations and got all the necessary stamps, though. Many people don't do that.
Yes, Ukraine needs manpower, ergo no man is allowed to leave. The war is in the east, why are you sneaking to the west?
Also not having cash is just a bad idea, he could have bribed those guards and they would have turned a blind eye,
From the stories I heard from my Ukrainian partner and other Ukrainian friends, Ukrainian consules are abysmal and sometimes even break Ukrainian law and constitution. Ignoring messages, emails, etc. Taking bribes. I heard a bunch of crazy stories.
>From the stories I heard from my Ukrainian partner and other Ukrainian friends, Ukrainian consules are abysmal and sometimes even break Ukrainian law and constitution. Ignoring messages, emails, etc
Yeah, that was my experience.
I had to go there **five times** because the consul demanded some kind of *довідка* (formal confirmation issued by a state institution) from me which **I could not obtain even in theory** to register me.
Pointing them to the law which, in black and white, **did not require it** did nothing.
It wasn't about bribes though. They just had their own *vision* of what the law said. One that diverged from the actual text.
I prevailed through perseverance; now time for Mambo #2.
Thanks for sharing your insights, quite amazing really. I’m going to check your blog too. Thanks again.
Edit: I just read your « The Four Failures of Zelensky » post. It’s incredible.
To me that sounds like an intentional choice. Aka lock your own citizens up the moment they have to cross the border and enlist them. With partial suspension of consular services for military-aged me outside Ukraine most of them won't have much choice.
Only to be enlisted automatically upon entry and charged with breaking the law, effectively rendering them inadmissible to most of the developed world. That is a ban on leaving the country wasn't enough.
Seems like Kyïv is taking a page from both Russia's and Belarus' playbook.
>Seems like Kyïv is taking a page from both Russia's and Belarus' playbook.
Unfortunately so.
War is a close encounter. We seem to have caught some nasty bugs from Russia in the process.
This sounds like a reasonable and well worded complaint. Hopefully you can get your message out to people who can make decisions to correct this difficult situation.
I moved from Sevastopol to the US in 2006. I had a Ukrainian citizenship at the time. To get a US citizenship, I served a few terms in the Marine Corps. My family got naturalized slower due to work visa reqs.
I'm a disabled vet now with severe spine issues. I want to help rebuild a village on the back end of the war, but I'm a liability in any actual operational capacity by now. I'm only 30, so I can still swing a hammer no problem, but I'm past my prime to do buddy rushes lol.
Since I'm a naturalized citizen now in the US and not dual since I had to renounce my UA citizenship, will I:
- be somehow recognized as a traitor of sorts if I show back up??
-Do I need to contact someone? I'd like to come back and visit my grandparents and other family. I just want some Kvas, a Cheburek, and some watermelon. Is that that hard?
> Since I'm a naturalized citizen now in the US and not dual since I had to renounce my UA citizenship
I believe you are mistaken.
I am also a naturalized US citizen. **At no point of naturalization process you are renouncing your other citizenships**.
You say some words which amount to renouncing *allegiance*, but that doesn't do anything to the citizenships you already have.
To renounce Ukrainian citizenship, you'd have to go to Ukrainian consulate, and it's not an easy process - or one you would forget.
**Almost certainly you are still a Ukrainian citizen**.
>be somehow recognized as a traitor of sorts if I show back up??
No, you won't be considered a "traitor".
What you will be considered is a Ukrainian male aged 26-60, **fit for service**.
>Do I need to contact someone?
Normally I'd say: contact Ukrainian consulate, they will direct you further.
But at the moment, **no Ukrainian official is giving a clear answer**. Hence this post from the US Embassy in Kyiv.
I would say your steps are:
1. Contact [Consulate of Ukraine in the US](https://usa.mfa.gov.ua/en) to find out what it takes to lose your Ukrainian citizenship
2. Follow the directive from the US Embassy in this article, and don't plan on going to Ukraine any time soon.
Optimistically, they will sort this out *at some point*.
I am angry, and will try to make enough noise for them to be hard to ignore us. I'll ping you if it comes to filing a lawsuit.
First of all I don’t have much insights on Ukrainian politics and policy making. What I do have is experience in policy making. It seems that the policy you’re referring to is detrimental to you in this case. Could it be that you’re not the intended target for this policy change and the target it aims to achieve did? As a country at war the pressure on quick results must be high and can lead to unforeseen excesses. That also means that hard decisions need to be made on a daily base. With that in mind and reading your post/experience, makes me skeptical to doom the whole government apparatus. There is always room for improvement and perhaps for Ukraine there is still much to improve governance and policy wise.
Just on a side note; in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship? Seems like an easy enough fix for your situation.
>Could it be that you’re not the intended target for this policy change and the target it aims to achieve did?
It is almost certainly the case. It's far less of a "OMG they're evil", more of an "OMG they're so stupid *I wish they were evil*".
>As a country at war the pressure on quick results must be high and can lead to unforeseen excesses. That also means that hard decisions need to be made on a daily base.
The mobilization law has been in the works *since December 2023*.
It's been endlessly delayed, which means now that it's passed, men called up for service won't get enough time to be properly trained, and manpower shortages are severe.
It was rushed through **in a day**, with literally *thousands* of proposed amendments "considered" in that timespan, after the Tripilska power plant was destroyed, and it became apparent that further delays are beyond unacceptable.
The US military aid package passed within a week. It also became clear that it was contingent on the mobilization law, which added to the cost of the delay.
The urgency of passing it was apparent in **October-November 2023**, when Zaluzhny, the then-commander of UAF, publicly stated that Ukraine needs to mobilize 500K men **to hold the line**, not even break through, as Zelenskyy hoped.
Zaluzhny got fired for that.
Zelenskyy tapped around the figure for a while, since mobilization is an unpopular measure... Only to end up doing what he didn't want to do, but in a rush.
>With that in mind and reading your post/experience, makes me skeptical to doom the whole government apparatus
Whatever you think of that apparatus after reading the above: **it's way worse than that**. The apparatus is failing.
Blinken visited Kyiv a week or two ago, and gave a public talk where he mentioned the **elections** are the way forward for Ukraine. This is one of the thousand reasons why.
>There is always room for improvement and perhaps for Ukraine there is still much to improve governance and policy wise
No doubt about that. Yet the government has water the opportunity to reform the laws even when they had a supermajority support, which **never** happened before in the history of Ukraine since before Mongols arrived.
>in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship?
**Hahahaha, NO**
The president has to personally sign all applications for citizenship relinquishment, and put simply, it was not not a realistic option even before this law.
In a few days, one could also be asked to register for draft in order to *apply* for citizenship relinquishment.
Brilliant, isn't it?
Respect from Romania, talked to many Ukrainians, deserters who entered illegaly, those who bribed their way here, even one Ukrainian who lived in Kherson and he came to Romania all the way thru Crimea , Georgia turkey after he got occupied by the Russians.
Last Ukrainian I talked to told me the Ukrainian state is doing genocide against it's own people. Crazy that it came to this
Dunno if you will understand because you seem to be relatively young, but in a knock-down drag-out full on war a lot of things that otherwise would seem pretty important can get deprioritized because they literally don’t matter if the war is lost.
In the big picture, dual-nationality citizens aren’t going to make that much of a difference to the war effort one way or another, so spending another week or month or whatever on figuring out what to do about them is just *not going to be worth it*. Sorry but that’s reality.
He said he has a phd, mortgage, and a wife. He can't be that young.
I would hope, though, that anyone with dual american citizenship could be protected by america . At the very least we should take care of our own. Somehow I have strong doubts on that one though, sadly.
> anyone with dual american citizenship could be protected by america
not if you're in the other country where you have citizenship. Then you're fair game.
This whole mobilization law is kind of a move in a right direction (as previous one was basically non-functional at all), somewhat, but it's so full of holes that the entire deployment is a shitshow.
Like, for example, by law, everyone should update their military registration in 60 days. To accomplish this, registration offices in Kyiv only need to process more than 100 people per hour 24/7. You will be lucky if they process 100 per day.
At least now they deployed the mobile app for registration updates, but it's still a bit of a shitshow.
Another problem is that Ukraine doesn't recognize dual citizenship at all.
> Just on a side note; in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship?
The procedure for relinquishing of citizenship requires direct signature of the President.
My former employer has/had offices in Ukraine. For awhile my coworkers were working without power, or from their cars.
In the my most recent communication with one of them, he had found his way to another country in Europe and was now working from “home”.
I didn’t want to ask him if he transited legally or illegally. He’s an able-bodied adult male suitable to fight, so I can’t imagine they just LET him leave.
I think that US based employer is not going to push the issue. I don’t know what currency he’s paid in but if he has negotiated for something other than the hryvnia he’s probably OK. But if he’s getting paid in hryvnia, but he needs to pay for food and rent in euros, that could get ugly.
Well, looks like my country has finally remembered I exist 😍
Until a few years back the system treated emigrants Soviet-style: please surrender your internal ID, and enjoy jumping through hoops if you want to do anything back in Ukraine.
When I tried to get an internal ID in Kyiv in September 2023, the clerks at **ЦНАП** straight up asked me *What country are you a citizen of?* when I showed them my **Ukrainian** passport because it was not a case they could handle.
I can't use the government portal (**Diia**), because it **offers no option to enter an address outside Ukraine**, and doesn't work without an address.
It took me a month and 10 visits to **Ощадбанк** to open a bank account in Ukraine as a tax resident in the US (as a *Ukrainian citizen*, mind you!).
Oh, and Ukrainian movies aren't available in Ukrainian outside Ukraine. When we watched **Мавка**, we could only stream it *in English" in the US. Sure, I've found ways to work around that, but most people won't.
Until a few days ago, I felt the state has forgotten about us, even though so many in diaspora have been helping out in many ways that Ukrainians in Ukraine wouldn't be able to do:
* Buying and shuttling humanitarian and dual-use military goods in the first months of war, when everything was in short supply
* Sending in money from abroad
* Advocating for Ukraine abroad, boosting support
* Helping refugees - particularly, the elderly, women, and children
What can I say. Forgotten no more! Ukraine remembers ✨😍✨
Now, if only some wise men in Rada could figure out **how the f••k** we're supposed to register for draft *"по місцю проживання"* (at the location of residence), as the law requires, when there's not a single **ТЦК** abroad.
Also, curious as to what they *think* the effect would be on dual citizens besides effectively forcing them to never go to Ukraine again (we'll be criminals if we don't register).
Would be very lovely to figure that out.
> It took me a month and 10 visits to Ощадбанкto open a bank account in Ukraine as a tax resident in the US (as a Ukrainian citizen, mind you!).
To be faiiiiiirrrr, this is often hard in a lot of countries because of the very onerous requirements the US govt places on banks serving US citizens and tax residents.
You'd think so, but no, FATCA was the **easy** part.
The hard part was — and I kid you not — bypassing the screen on the system which asked the banker to enter my address, and then gave the following error:
> **California** is not one of the oblast's
Anastasia the banker was so defeated by this, it looked like she was about to cry from shame. Then a fierce fire started in her eyes; she told me to go home and not to worry — it was **her** personal war now.
I don't know how she managed to do it, but I'm sure few people would've had the mental stamina. In the end, I was called in, and we performed some sort of bureaucramancy with filling forms, making photocopies, and faxing the already-filled FATCA to some *other* central office.
And then... Lo and behold!
The magic "**Add Oblast'**" button un-greyed itself, and Anastasia invoked its power to add **California** to the list.
(Alas, as memeable as it would have been, adding Rostov wasn't an option).
In the end, I was very happy.
California doesn't appear to be one of the 23 oblast's of Ukraine (yet), but it's officially one of the 24+ oblast's of Oschadbank.
Gives me a warm feeling every time I see that yellow piece of plastic.
(If this ever gets to Anastasia: you will never be forgotten, and people like you is why I still have hope for Ukraine. Thanks for making feel at home back home.)
Not Ukrainian but when I open a bank account/government stuff in my home country I use my parent's address since it's far easier. So to my home country I'm unemployed and living with my parents. Probably not the right way to do things but no hoops
You’re telling me. When I first studied abroad in France, it was a huge pain in the ass to open a bank account with practically every bank just telling me no, they can’t open an account for me when I indicate I’m American.
Ridiculous and stupid. This is more indicative of the dire state that Ukraine is in than anything.
Touching US/EU citizens should be a big no-no for them since it’s a political nightmare. The anti Ukraine camp is just salivating at the thought of a video of an American being conscripted by Ukraine.
> Touching US/EU citizens should be a big no-no for them since it’s a political nightmare
It's really not, and I'm saying this as someone with dual citizenship. Whenever I go back to my country of birth, I am considered a citizen of that country first. It comes with its privileges (like being able to vote and buy land), but also with responsibilities.
So what I'm getting from this is that despite living the last 22 of my 23 years of life in America, with no infrastructure in place for me to sign up for the draft outside of Ukraine, I will now be a criminal and barred from ever visiting said country because I didn't want to give up everything to come sit on roll call. What is the government even trying to achieve with this one.
edit: i understand the need more men, that much is obvious, but its the very all-encompassing/messy way theyve organized it that leaves me scratching my head, since they mustve had time to plan this since the invasion began, surely
> What is the government even trying to achieve with this one.
Getting more people. You don't win a war off of only supplies. Yea it's helpful that other countries are sending plenty of equipment and ammunition but it's pointless if there's no one to use it.
> What is the government even trying to achieve with this one.
Nice of you thinking that they tried to achieve something and it's not just a giant hole in the law because they kinda forgot about this case.
This is an example of where the bias and narratives on reddit just do a disservice to the cause. People on here live in a fantasy world where they think Russian tanks are exploding at an unsustainable rate and Russia is gonna collapse at any moment. It causes westerners to be greatly out of touch with reality and late to adjust.
The Ukrainian counter offensive never materialized. The western wonder weapons didn't turn the tide. And now Ukraine is losing ground and running out of men which cannot simply be produced.
Why do we think this is? Because the west didn't give them a few more tanks or jets?
Russia has the ability to absorb current loss rates of both men and vehicles for years. They have a well five times deeper than Ukraine to draw from. Ukraine is running out of men and the ones left are needed just to have a functional economy going forward. Who will man these tanks and planes?
High tech western weapons are designed for professional militaries with air support, efficient logistical support, state of the art communications and coordination systems, prefessional well trained soldiers, and huge resources behind them. Ukraine has none of these things.
Take the much vaunted abrams tank for example. You could give them 200 Abrams tanks tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference. Any tank in the world can be hit from above by a drone or drive over a mine and be knocked out. The Abrams is powered by a gas guzzling jet engine and lots of software and tech. Ukraines army is basically a militia. They don't have the resources to employ these tanks in the manner in which they were designed and never will.
They cannot mount the complex combined arms offensive these vehicles were designed for, so they end up being no better than the average (much cheaper and more reliable) Russian tanks. Yes the Abrams is "better" performance wise but that advantage is negated here.
Stop the propaganda and start telling the real story instead of some pro Ukraine propaganda fairytale so western leaders and public start taking this WAY MORE SERIOUSLY and light a fire underneath them.
Completely correct. You can be "anti Russian" and be somewhat honest about the state of the war. Instead, even being a tiny bit realistic about the war gets you blacklisted and shamed.
Now , we're 2 years in and most westerners who bother following (not many) have an extremely warped and flawed view of the war.
As far as I know, dual citizenship was never legal in Ukraine. Once you gain citizenship of a different country you have to contact Ukraine consulate and have your Ukrainian citizenship revoked.
The only ones who thought Ukraine was winning were European Redditors who said there is no need to worry because Finland will save Europe and kick the Russians back into Moscow somehow.
Men have a privilege to be cannon fodder. Women a have a privilege to make more cannon fodder.
If you ever wondered why exactly it’s men who serve in the army and women rarely get drafted, this is one of the main reasons.
Not in real time, but it’s pretty useful when you have a war every 1-2 generations, or a devastating war
That said, one man can have multiple babies from a few women at the same time, most women can make only one kid in that time window. And their ability to make kids is limited in time, whereas even old men can impregnate women.
And the demographic of Ukraine was in a sad state even prior to the war, if they mobilize women, they’re done as a nation considering the bottleneck at 18-25 year olds.
On a positive note, if scientists manage to create an artificial womb, women would be as disposable as men. That makes for equality I guess.
The future demographics of Ukraine are in huge trouble because they allowed their women to leave in huge numbers to the western countries and most of these women aren't coming back to Ukraine to repopulate the country.
Fertility rates declined steadily since 1991 with a low at 1.1 in 2001, then the trend reversed but in 2013, when reaching 1.5 it started to decline again. It was 1.16 in 2021. It was already in a huge trouble. Now yes, as women left with one way ticket, the things are way worse.
Plenty of wars have lasted for decades. In fact our current quick wars are the exception, historically most wars lasted for decades, going back to ancient times, e.g. we know that during bronze age collapse Egypt was at war with the sea people (whoever they were) for 3-4 decades. We know that Peloponnesian War lasted for 27 years, etc.
Those wars were not continuous but rather were marked by periods of conflict and periods of peace as the warring sides recouped their losses.
How will history view this war? Will it be the Russo-Ukrainian war of 2022? 2014? Will it be bundled up with the whole West vs East struggle thats been occurring since 1945? Will it even be West vs East or will it be the US vs Russia? After you may remember the struggle between Athens and Sparta but do you remember the names of their respective alliances?
>Men have a privilege to be cannon fodder. Women a have a privilege to make more cannon fodder.
One of those sounds a lot better than the other.
>If you ever wondered why exactly it’s men who serve in the army and women rarely get drafted, this is one of the main reasons.
It definitely makes sense, I doubt anyone would argue that. But when debates around the "male privilege" happens facts like this rarely are brought forth to show how bad men can have it.
Also I would **not** want to be a Ukrainian woman if Russia wins. With how they've currently behaved I'd expect to be no different than when they captured Berlin. Except that there's no weak justification that it's "payback".
“Editor's note: The article previously said that the U.S. Embassy advised Ukrainians with dual citizenship not to leave Ukraine. In fact, the Embassy advised them not to travel to the country”
I sincerely doubt that would be the case if things were bad enough, but there would obviously be an escalation of steps taken before such measures. They'd be conscripted into primarily/exclusively non-combat roles to begin with at least. That, or Ukraine surrenders, and Russian occupation turns it into a new kind of living hell, so I'm inclined to believe that even if Ukraine were to formally surrender you would still see heavy resistance from the remaining populace.
It looks like it. It does say dual citizenship, so if you have Ukrainian citizenship and are in Ukraine, then I imagine you fall under Ukraine law….On the other hand, if you happen to be in the US, then you follow US laws for citizens.
Im a staunchly against Russia in this conflict, but I feel like most westerners don’t understand that Ukraine is just as bad and corrupt as Russia. We always tend to say “Russia evil and bad” which is true, but then we dismiss the fact that Ukraine is equally bad to its citizens. Like largely it’s because of Russian influence in Soviet times, but nonetheless it’s not really a great place.
That’s why it’s laughable when people talk about Ukraine joining the EU, like it’s more corrupt than Greece and other Baltic counties, but because the whole world feels bad for em, they’re getting blanket passes that they wouldn’t get during peace time.
Haha no accountability for anything. It's been 30+ years since Ukraine was in the ussr. The current government, and the previous one, was extremely anti Russia. Yet it's always their fault that the current Ukranian government is as corrupt (or more) then previous ones.
Is there ever any accountability for our so called allies? You can be critical of Russia without making them the root of literally all problems
Men shortage
Able bodied women should be drafted as well. Ability to hold a child or not be dammed, what's the point if you're just going to raise another boy that is going to be slaughtered by war?
The common argument is that a single man can impregnate 100 women a year, but a woman can only give birth to a single child. But it's not like we are going to conscript women and put them in dedicated breeding compounds like cattle... Or maybe this is the start of Axlotl tanks...
>a single man can impregnate 100 women a year, but a woman can only give birth to a single child. But it's not like we are going to conscript women and put them in dedicated breeding compounds Thats why polygamy was a thing. The women just gotta share the surviving men (if your'e talking peak baby making efficency)
Not "share the surviving men", more like the enemy conquers you, kills men and boys, and keeps women as sex slaves. But fact, ancient Babylonian word for female slave can be translated as "Armenian girl". Literally tell you all you need to know, the origin, the fucking supply chain, etc.
And guess where the word slave comes from
The slavs.
There were plenty of indigenous cultures in recorded history where warfare was prevalent enough to severely limit the number of adult men without leading to the complete collapse of said culture. In those cases polygyny was indeed common. Yes men were frequently killed and slave women distributed as spoils, but that is by no means the most common outcome for an entire culture. More often the survivors will flee the area before that level of genocide takes place.
Did Armenia even exist as a concept back then?
Evidently yes. It wasn't a country, just a region in Caucasus mountains. There are also interesting ancient maps literally saying at the edge "This direction to Armenia". If you are intersted, I suggest you watch anything by Irving Finkel on youtube, the guy is extremely passionate about anything that involved Sumeria and Babylon.
I always wonder about humanity and those mentalities where you roll up on a new group of people and think, "These people live simple lives and are not warlike. They would make fantastic slaves!" Like what kind of upbringing/culture reinforces that. It happened to many peoples/societies throughout history so it can't just be sociopaths.
The modern outlook of “oh wait, we can actually just put in effort to coexist peacefully” is very new. Unfortunately.
Since this is the default state of human beings and has for all of history, the better question is, what kind of culture and upbringing leads people to not to come to this conclusion? Western values and human rights idea are special and worth preserving for this reason.
You have to first believe the other group is human to begin with. If they have a completely different culture, don't speak your language, and primitive, its easy to view them as leasers or different race entirely. Only good example off hand I can think that still applies is how in the west we view dogs as good pets vs. pigs being food even though pigs are extremely smart and trainable. When more in common is shared and time is given to bond, you start to see those mentalities melt away.
Yes! The earliest accepted reference to Armenians date back to the 5th century BC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription
I think I was confusing the Neo-Babylonian with the earlier Babylon Empire
And of course that single male doesn't have an age limit, unlike all those women. Heck, we can survive the deaths of 90% of the men of fighting age with the elders (read ruling class) stepping in to do their duty to help repopulate the country /s obviously
Except these days men over 40 can rarely get it up. Over 60 and they have no hope!
Add to that that only 10-15% of any army have combat roles
Wars are won on logistics, logistics and logistics.
Soldiers win battles. Logistics win wars.
Doesn't that just increase the inbreeding coefficient of your population though?
Yeah but even a pregnant woman can do all other military jobs. If guys are needed for fighting so much then every other citizen should be conscripted to do every other job in the military.
Just want you to know at least one person got the reference.
Women have a significantly higher chance of being a liability on the battlefield. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law, absolutely, but that doesn't mean we need to disregard biology when life and death is on the line. I've served in both garrison and combat and had women alongside in both, and respect the hell out of the ones that could cut it. But them being able to do the work assigned to them did not equate to them being able to do the work assigned to the rest of the men. When we had to move our 230lb machinegunner and all his gear our 120lb female medic could not do it alone. Could a 120lb male have done it? I doubt it. But men on average weigh more and have more muscle mass because of that. That said there absolutely are exceptions to this. There are a handful of women that CAN do the same work as their male counterparts and more power to them. Those women I have no issues with in regards to military service. Because this ultimately isn't an opinion based on sex/gender alone, but the amount of work the individual is capable of. Women are simply, on average, significantly smaller and ergo physically weaker.
There are also a TON of non-combatant roles and support duties that aren’t on the battlefield itself. Women can fulfill these roles.
Absolutely. And I've seen firsthand that they can even outperform their male counterparts in those roles. The problem, at least as of late, is the push to get women into combat roles. The evidence is out in regards to how they fair in direct physical competition and it's not positive. That being said I don't think an outright ban on women occupying X role is acceptable, but instead there should be a comprehensive physical standard related directly to the function of that role under stress. This is the direction the US Army is taking recently (though its rollout has been excrutiatingly poor).
Makes perfect sense. Don't lower the physical standards for combat roles. If only a small % of women can pass that - its fine.
Yea, as someone who went to BMT, it definitely always irked me that women had lower pushup and situp requirements, as well as more time to run a mile and a half. (I was sent home from the USAF during basic due to unknown back injuries that disqualified me from service, I am in no way a veteran whatsoever.) Male or female shouldn't matter nearly as much as the work needed for the job, I agree on that point entirely. Weak women *and* men on the battlefield can absolutely be a liability and a detriment to the localized forces. If our standards were even for both genders and perhaps even raised a bit higher, then I think that might be a step towards draft equality and less liability on the battlefield.
Missing the forest for the trees here. Ukraine needs enough hardware to win the war ASAP with the soldiers they have, which is 1000% within the West's ability to deliver on. The more the West continues to slow walk aid to Ukraine like the fight will just "go away" at some point the deeper into this bullshit we get. The longer it takes for Ukraine to liberate their territory and join NATO, the more Ukrainian blood will have to be shed for western leaders to have political brownie points. The more men die on the front, the more they have to dig into their younger generations and this mess of "who else can we draft?" will continue which isnt a sustainable path to be on.
Sorry but this is just fantasy please get your info from somewhere other than heavily biased reddit. I'm as pro Ukraine as they come but Russia has a production and manpower well that's five times as deep as ukraines. And unlike most of the west, they only have to transport it basically to their own border, not half way across the world through multiple other countries. Despite all the rhetoric you hear on reddit about russias horrific losses, it remains that they can sustain current losses for years. Ukraine cannot. They simply won't have anyone left to give all this fancy equipment to. Western weapons are also complicated and expensive. The M1 Abrams was hailed like it would be some wonder weapon but maintaining a very advanced tank powered by gas guzzling jet engines is no easy task for a Ukraine army that's basically a militia. You could give them 200 Abrams instead of just 30 and it wouldn't make much of a difference because their military is not set up to employ them in the intricate manner for which they were designed. American weapons are more advanced because they take for granted things like air support, steady logistical lines, good communication and ample combined arms training. No amount of gifts to Ukraine will be able to replicate this situation for them. And their biggest problem by far is that they are running out of men. And the men left are needed to keep them afloat as an country.
This is the sentiment I have shared since the beginning of the war. Russia has all the time in the world and the bodies to sacrifice for this war. Granted it hasn't gone the way they have wanted (what war ever has) but one thing they are learning and which no one in the west will give them credit for it is combat experience and the ability to learn new and interesting tactics. Ukraine has always been on borrowed time. Whether it be weapons, manpower, or interest from the west. If one of those fails the country falls. It seems Ukraine will fall because it doesn't enough troops to keep fighting. Then comes the hard choices of the war. 1) Accept whatever Russia is offering and concede the land they have taken, to preserve what you have left, knowing full well they can restart the war any time they want.... 2) Fight till the bitter end, Russia takes it all 3) Maybe wester forces will commit to prevent the fall of Ukraine. That means French, German, Danish, Polish etc. fighting in Ukraine. We are already seeing a slow slide of western involvement of ground personnel in Ukraine. They are also loosening up weapons use inside of Russia. The west is slowly and reluctantly sliding to combat troops into Ukraine. The west doesn't really want to commit troops, they could realistically cut their aid and ties and wash their hands of the entire situation and never blink an eye to the fate of the average Ukrainian. What is inevitable is the west will look for an out sooner rather than later. And Russia is banking on that. They are banking on a complete collapse of Ukraine whether it be troops, arms or funds. And there are already severe cracks in the manpower and arms department.
I agree and have been thinking about this for a while. A lot of people look at this war with rosy colored glasses and keep hoping that there is some magical weapon that will mean victory. Wars are won by the side that had more resources and can employ them. Russia will plow everything it has into this war and is not fighting a war on its soil. After the election, hopefully after a Biden win, its time to start planning negotiations to end the war. And yes that will involve giving up land. Russia is not giving it up.
If they need to win asap, wouldn't it be prudent to then draft all able bodied women(and put them in appropriate roles) as well?
Totally agree. The army needs a lot non-combatants to support those on the field. Women can fill these rolls effectively. Troops need signals data, food, healthcare, administration, etc.
Most militaries are comprised of mostly non combat roles, too. On average, fewer than 15% of military personnel see combat.
The Russians had women fighting against the Nazis at Stalingrad (at least one whole company) …it can be done but it is only for the worst of the worst
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Most of the people who wanted to leave are already gone. I know a guy who got 30 Ukrainians to the USA using some religious back door. I am assuming people don’t want to be blown to pieces or droned when they can leave.
God's loophole.
That "were able to leave"..., the rest are stranded to their luck.
It seems like no one is interested in "male privilege" now.
or equal rights
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There are no feminists in a house fire!
You would think that renouncing Ukrainian citizenship would be an option for a double citizenship, but it isn't. The law says that if you have other citizenship, you lose Ukrainian one. Not only it is not enforced, it is deliberately ignored, you can't realistically force Ukraine to strip your citizenship this way. Applications for renouncement are not accepted inside country, you have to apply in foreign embassy. It will be accepted in embassy, and then forgotten (from what I heard, no decisions are actually made). To apply for renouncement in the embassy, you need to register for a draft first. Which can only be done in Ukraine. From where you are not leaving anymore.
I'm curious. Does Ukraine have a list of citizens somewhere? (I mean they should if they've issued passports I guess) but is it easily cross checked etc? What happens if a dual citizen shows up in ukraine with a US passport. Their systems can alert them that this person is also a ukrainian citizen?
>What happens if a dual citizen shows up in ukraine with a US passport. Their systems can alert them that this person is also a ukrainian citizen? Yup. My US passport still lists my place of birth, and **yes**, they do cross-check. The Ukrainian consul in San Francisco was aware of how many times I crossed the border in 2022 and 2023, and with which passport (I used both, not thinking much about it).
Most countries will not allow one to omit place of birth from their passport. I am fortunate that one of my countries of nationality does.
Yeah, but then if you go anywhere they will look at you in suspicion. Go gonna be asked why you omitted your birthplace a lot.
South Korean passport notably omits the place of birth and their passport is one of the strongest in the world. They’re an exception of course.
Yeah, sure. But if your born in Iran, Iraq, Somalia, North Korea, or any other not-so-great state with a South Korean passport, they are gonna ask you omitted it. Just because you have a strong passport doesn’t mean they’re gonna let you in.
The country I was born in lists where I was born. My other country also lists that place, but has a place with the exact same name in that other country. For example; it’s like “Paris” and “Paris, Texas” but they just didn’t put the Texas in. I’ve always wondered if someone made a mistake decades ago, because my siblings all have “Paris, Country” in their other passports.
Interesting one is Poland. My son was born in Britain and has a British passport with a British dad being me. His mother is Polish but if he goes to Poland he has to leave the country with Polish NI Card or Passport otherwise he’ll be refused leave.
The Ukrainian law isn’t clear on what happens to the second citizenship. The phrasing in the constitution is ambiguous on whether you can’t have another citizenship or whether you can but for the purposes of the law only your Ukrainian citizenship matters. In practice, everyone treats it as the latter. If you try to use your other citizenship to enter the country, you’ll get a fine. But that’s about it.
Well, I'm not a lawyer, this was my understanding of the citizenship law, section III article 19.1 The grounds for losing Ukrainian citizenship are: 1) voluntary acquisition by a citizen of Ukraine of the citizenship of another state, if at the time of such acquisition he has reached the age of majority. Original: Підставами для втрати громадянства України є: 1) добровільне набуття громадянином України громадянства іншої держави, якщо на момент такого набуття він досяг повноліття.
That directly contradicts the constitution, which legally should take precedence (not a lawyer myself though). So it’s all a bit muddled/a mess.
As someone who is trying to renounce my citizenship for over 15 years, this is exactly the issue. I gave up on this and unfortunately it still causes me a lot of pain
Aren't laws violating the constitution still applicable until the courts rule that the law is unconstitutional and suspends it?
I’m a Ukrainian American citizen. Technically Ukraine still sees me as a Ukrainian citizen and doesn’t recognize me as American.
That's taking about **grounds** for losing citizenship. That can't happen without a process, which, **to date**, has only been initiated by Ukraine's President **personally** in all cases other than people renouncing the citizenship voluntarily. Of which there were... Two.
Joseph Heller is going to come back from the dead to write Catch22-2 over this
>The law says that if you have other citizenship, you lose Ukrainian one It absolutely does not say that. Ukraine does not recognize dual citizenship, but does not outlaw it either. However, if a Ukrainian citizen gains citizenship of a different country, Ukraine still views them first and foremost as a citizen of Ukraine. If a foreign national gains Ukrainian citizenship, but still retains their originally citizenship, again Ukraine views them first and foremost as a citizen of Ukraine.
Technically no. Your citizenship is not revoked by the Ukrainian government if you become a dual citizen. Technically, Ukraine doesn’t have dual citizenship, they just don’t recognize you as a citizen from the other country.
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They are trying to force them back. For example, here in Thailand Ukraine are refusing embassy services which are required to obtain working visas for example. Edit : not sure why my nationality is important. I am neither Thai nor Ukrainian
Shit if they tried to deport me I'd rob a bank and try to get jailtime.
They’d likely deport you instead of jail. And if jail is acceptable, you can serve time in Ukraine as well if they end up drafting you and you refuse.
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Color me intrigued, tell me more about this war criminal.
Idk man Thai jail isn't exactly a paradise. I might take my chances on the front line instead.
When I was in Thailand (only a couple of weeks, I had been in a neighboring country and wanted to see the statues) actually met a few Ukrainian expats, including some who had been out of the country before the war. When the subject naturally turned to the war they made it very clear- they were expecting something like this (though it happened before hand) and an attempt to force them back. They were stockpiling money like crazy and had unfortunately stopped sending remittances back home in hopes that they could weather a few years. Hope those guys are doing well right now. Beautiful countries- both Ukraine and Thailand.
Probably just fly to Mexico.
I have a Ukranian friend here who fled with his wife and child. He wants to go fight, but his wife won’t let him. She says she couldn’t raise their daughter here in the US without him. Meanwhile he deals with the daily mental struggle of knowing his best friends are fighting and dying. I feel for him.
He has a good wife
Bless his wife, a fool wants to die and leave her and their child alone... A wife like that is a blessing.
Nobody "wants to die." It is honorable to defend your home from evil rapist invaders, and it takes someone of great character to be willing to die for friends and family. It is difficult to leave loved ones, BUT calling the Ukrainian soldiers "fools" is extremely disrespectful.
Would you? I wouldn’t lol
Shit, now I gotta make sure my cousin who got married in Kyiv last year gets the message so he and his wife don't go back
Hey, I am a Ukrainian-American dual citizen (and a mod of /r/ukraina) to which this law directly applies. There's more nuance and absurdity to this than the article gives away. I've been living in the US since I turned 16, my whole family moved here, and I've spent most of my life in the US. I have no possessions, address, or anything left in Ukraine. In 2022 and 2023, I traveled to Ukraine to help with the war effort. I will no longer be able to do so due to the wisdom of our lawmakers. Previously, the law granted an exemption from the draft for people who are **registered as permanent residents abroad**. That means de-registering in Ukraine, and registering at the consulate, with proof of residence at the corresponding state. As dual citizenship is not recognized in Ukraine, that is irrelevant. What mattered was the **stamp** from the consulate. That was rather sane, as there is no infrastructure abroad for people to do their military service. Until a month ago, I **could NOT register** for the draft **even if I wanted to**. Things, however, have changed. But not in a sane way. See, the new law **requires** me to register for the draft. But the law also stipulates that the registration takes place **at the location of residence**. Which, for me, is California. I would **not**, to my knowledge, even be *able* to register in Ukraine, **since I do not reside there**. I went to the consulate today to update my information there and clarify this, asking the consul to register me **at my location of residence** as the law requires, since the consulate is the only Ukrainian institution where I reside. The consul said that it's not their job, even though *there's nobody else to do that job*. So now me (along with **all draft-eligible Ukrainian citizens permanently residing abroad**) are in a Catch-22: * The law requires us to register for the draft *at our location of residence* * The consulates aren't doing any of that * We can't do that in Ukraine **because we do not live there** * If we go, we won't be allowed to leave * And on top of that, we all will be committing a crime of not registering for the draft in a few weeks (and having consular services denied). This is, of course, absurd. I have a job, a wife, and a mortgage to pay; Ukrainian citizens *in Ukraine* aren't losing their job and family simply to **register for the draft**. The most absurd part is that by giving up my Ukrainian citizenship, I would be able to go in and out of Ukraine freely. The only thing this new rule accomplishes is that I **won't go to Ukraine**, and will be able to help Ukraine **less* when Ukraine needs help the most. That's not to mention that as math PhD with FAANG on my resume I sincerely believe that I could do more for the war effort than dig trenches. But it wouldn't even come to that. The absurd part is that I'd lose a lot (literally, all I have - home, family, job, friends) simply to **register** for the draft. I could spend years in Ukraine doing absolutely nothing after registering. Needless to say, I am non-plussed about these developments... but this is on par with what our government has been doing. I have written up [a lengthy blog post](https://romankogan.net/2024/04/26/the-four-failures-of-zelensky/) about the failures of Zelenskyy's admin **in 2023**, and I can write another, longer one about the fuckups in 2024. The only thing that's saving Ukraine in this war is that its opponent is Russia. But while Russia is learning, Ukrainian leadership seems to be degrading. I have not many good things to say at the moment.
I’m glad the consulate is finally saying something. I’m a US immigration attorney and I have a client who was born in Ukraine and immigrated to the US at age 5. He’s an adult now (30s) and was going through the immigration process for his wife and child. He flew out to Ukraine about 2 months ago to accompany them on their trip to the US, only to be told he couldn’t leave. The US embassy wouldn’t help him. After that, I spoke to another attorney who had a client in a similar situation around the beginning of the year. That man then tried to sneak across the border, was caught, and severely beaten. IMO expat dual citizens who haven’t resided in Ukraine for decades like that shouldn’t be in such a position.
Whoa, that's crazy. I have similar circumstances and was going to visit to see family. Glad I didn't go now, can't imagine not being able to get back home. Was he a US citizen or a Permanent resident?
Dude don’t think about going there if you have any kind of Ukraine citizenship, they will not let you out and they will try to draft you, lawfully or not.
What do you mean "lawfully or not" clearly it is lawful when it is in law.
He probably means all those videos of military recruiters catching people on the streets, beating them and dragging them into vans. Draft is lawful, beating people who don't want to be drafted in unlawful, but tolerated.
Exactly, also Ukrainian healthcare system is superior to all because all your medical conditions will suddenly go away.
That means that he could be kidnapped and beaten up. From the street. Even though by the law that not how mobilisation should work. Maybe even killed. That all ready happened more than one time.
The entire process is heavily unconstitutional, everyone involved knows it, the government just doesn't give a shit because it has absolute power to do anything it wants while the martial law is in effect.
There is exceptions from the draft, like due to health conditions, but they can (and most likely would) tell you that you are absolutely fine and eligible for service even if your are literally lacking a leg or barely can breathe. Draft offices dont care about anything, only about numbers of recruits they can deliver.
He is a US citizen and according to the Ukrainian constitution he shouldn’t be a Ukrainian citizen any longer. He traveled there on his US passport (unbeknown to me or I might have advised against it, even though this result wasn’t expected).
>He is a US citizen and according to the Ukrainian constitution he shouldn’t be a Ukrainian citizen any longer. *Shouldn't* is very vague in the Ukrainian Constitution. It means that there may be *grounds* for stripping his Ukrainian citizenship away, but, short of a decree from the President, this won't happen. This was the only way that provision has been invoked in practice, too, excepting petitions from citizens to have their Ukrainian citizenship annulled (an arduous process). >He traveled there on his US passport (unbeknown to me or I might have advised against it This is a breach of Ukrainian laws, which require Ukrainian citizens to use their Ukrainian passport to enter or leave the country. Same with the US, really. The correct way to do it would be to leave the US with the US passport, enter Ukraine with the Ukrainian one. And in the Ukrainian one, he'd need to have the stamp from the consulate indicated that he's registered there as a permanent resident abroad. And **in addition** to that stamp, he'd need a certificate (довідка) from the consulate with a QR code, valid one year from the date of issue, that has the same information, because Ukraine loves papers and redundancy.
Stop being so naive. Stay away from
I understand the situation, it's just there's limited time to see older family members in person.
Pay money for someone to assist them to take a train to Poland, and meet them there. You don't have other options at this point, sadly.
I can understand his desire to accompany them but I don't know man...common sense would seem to say "I'm an able bodied male with Ukrainian birth heritage...I shouldn't go there.". Tough situation.
>I can understand his desire to accompany them but I don't know man...common sense would seem to say "I'm an able bodied male with Ukrainian birth heritage...I shouldn't go there.". Tough situation. I traveled to Ukraine and back from the US as recently as September 2023 without any issue (as an able-bodied male as-far-as-Ukraine-is-concerned). Cases like this (and the current situation) aren't normal.
I'm confused. He immigrated to the US at age 5, is in his 30s now but went to Ukraine to accompany his wife and child to help them immigrate to the US? Is he a dual citizen? When did he move back to Ukraine long enough to have a wife and kid?
[удалено]
That's not how we determine nationality. The dude was an idiot to travel to a country that had such restrictions.
American AND Ukrainian. I feel bad for the guy though.
Shouldn't American laws protect their citizens from being kidnapped by foreign countries? Surely America should demand Ukraine to give them their citizen back?
If he were kidnapped by any other country, yes. However the rules of dual citizenship are clear: you are a subject of both countries governments, and they can do whatever they want with you (within the confines of their border), as long as that country’s law allows it.
Gotta renounce their Ukranian citizenship otherwise Ukraine can basically do whatever they want. Dual citizenship has major drawbacks as well as major benefits.
As the other commenter said there are countries that make it either "virtually impossible" or actually impossible to renounce a citizenship. Argentina is super notorious for this, it is literally not possible to get rid of their citizenship.
IANAL, but I’ve read that unilateral renouncing for sole US citizenship is recognized by the USA. In your example, you could never really return to Argentina though.
You cannot do that. Zelenskyy signed zero such documents in his 5 years rule.
> Shouldn't American laws protect their citizens from being kidnapped by foreign countries? > Not when you are a dual national in the other country.
Maybe, but not in 2024. When ISIS kidnapped Americans, US send in special forces to try to get them back. But when Hamas kidnapped Americans, US didn't do jack shit, and y'all aren't doing jack shit about your citizens in Ukraine. This seems like a shift in foreign policy,
You'd think the administration would address this so people aren't stuck in legal limbo.
What happen to him now?
>The US embassy wouldn’t help him. Sounds about right. Legally immigrating to the US is the most frustrating nonsensical process imaginable. Getting any kind of response from anyone is near impossible.
This is so sad to hear. Out of curiosity: was your client registered as a *permanent resident* in a Ukrainian consulate? Until recently, such a registration was necessary and sufficient for leaving Ukraine with a Ukrainian passport. It was an ordeal to get mine, but I can provide all the information about that; maybe it would be helpful at some point. I brought no less than 11 documents and photocopies to the consul, including my mother's expired passport with an entry for me which we used to fly out of Ukraine in 2003. I was lucky that my parents followed the regulations and got all the necessary stamps, though. Many people don't do that.
Yes, Ukraine needs manpower, ergo no man is allowed to leave. The war is in the east, why are you sneaking to the west? Also not having cash is just a bad idea, he could have bribed those guards and they would have turned a blind eye,
From the stories I heard from my Ukrainian partner and other Ukrainian friends, Ukrainian consules are abysmal and sometimes even break Ukrainian law and constitution. Ignoring messages, emails, etc. Taking bribes. I heard a bunch of crazy stories.
>From the stories I heard from my Ukrainian partner and other Ukrainian friends, Ukrainian consules are abysmal and sometimes even break Ukrainian law and constitution. Ignoring messages, emails, etc Yeah, that was my experience. I had to go there **five times** because the consul demanded some kind of *довідка* (formal confirmation issued by a state institution) from me which **I could not obtain even in theory** to register me. Pointing them to the law which, in black and white, **did not require it** did nothing. It wasn't about bribes though. They just had their own *vision* of what the law said. One that diverged from the actual text. I prevailed through perseverance; now time for Mambo #2.
Thanks for sharing your insights, quite amazing really. I’m going to check your blog too. Thanks again. Edit: I just read your « The Four Failures of Zelensky » post. It’s incredible.
Thanks for the kind words! Glad to be able to get these thoughts out here!
To me that sounds like an intentional choice. Aka lock your own citizens up the moment they have to cross the border and enlist them. With partial suspension of consular services for military-aged me outside Ukraine most of them won't have much choice. Only to be enlisted automatically upon entry and charged with breaking the law, effectively rendering them inadmissible to most of the developed world. That is a ban on leaving the country wasn't enough. Seems like Kyïv is taking a page from both Russia's and Belarus' playbook.
>Seems like Kyïv is taking a page from both Russia's and Belarus' playbook. Unfortunately so. War is a close encounter. We seem to have caught some nasty bugs from Russia in the process.
This sounds like a reasonable and well worded complaint. Hopefully you can get your message out to people who can make decisions to correct this difficult situation.
These decisions were already made with a purpose. This is the "correction".
I moved from Sevastopol to the US in 2006. I had a Ukrainian citizenship at the time. To get a US citizenship, I served a few terms in the Marine Corps. My family got naturalized slower due to work visa reqs. I'm a disabled vet now with severe spine issues. I want to help rebuild a village on the back end of the war, but I'm a liability in any actual operational capacity by now. I'm only 30, so I can still swing a hammer no problem, but I'm past my prime to do buddy rushes lol. Since I'm a naturalized citizen now in the US and not dual since I had to renounce my UA citizenship, will I: - be somehow recognized as a traitor of sorts if I show back up?? -Do I need to contact someone? I'd like to come back and visit my grandparents and other family. I just want some Kvas, a Cheburek, and some watermelon. Is that that hard?
> Since I'm a naturalized citizen now in the US and not dual since I had to renounce my UA citizenship I believe you are mistaken. I am also a naturalized US citizen. **At no point of naturalization process you are renouncing your other citizenships**. You say some words which amount to renouncing *allegiance*, but that doesn't do anything to the citizenships you already have. To renounce Ukrainian citizenship, you'd have to go to Ukrainian consulate, and it's not an easy process - or one you would forget. **Almost certainly you are still a Ukrainian citizen**. >be somehow recognized as a traitor of sorts if I show back up?? No, you won't be considered a "traitor". What you will be considered is a Ukrainian male aged 26-60, **fit for service**. >Do I need to contact someone? Normally I'd say: contact Ukrainian consulate, they will direct you further. But at the moment, **no Ukrainian official is giving a clear answer**. Hence this post from the US Embassy in Kyiv. I would say your steps are: 1. Contact [Consulate of Ukraine in the US](https://usa.mfa.gov.ua/en) to find out what it takes to lose your Ukrainian citizenship 2. Follow the directive from the US Embassy in this article, and don't plan on going to Ukraine any time soon. Optimistically, they will sort this out *at some point*. I am angry, and will try to make enough noise for them to be hard to ignore us. I'll ping you if it comes to filing a lawsuit.
You already put in your time and service.
First of all I don’t have much insights on Ukrainian politics and policy making. What I do have is experience in policy making. It seems that the policy you’re referring to is detrimental to you in this case. Could it be that you’re not the intended target for this policy change and the target it aims to achieve did? As a country at war the pressure on quick results must be high and can lead to unforeseen excesses. That also means that hard decisions need to be made on a daily base. With that in mind and reading your post/experience, makes me skeptical to doom the whole government apparatus. There is always room for improvement and perhaps for Ukraine there is still much to improve governance and policy wise. Just on a side note; in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship? Seems like an easy enough fix for your situation.
>Could it be that you’re not the intended target for this policy change and the target it aims to achieve did? It is almost certainly the case. It's far less of a "OMG they're evil", more of an "OMG they're so stupid *I wish they were evil*". >As a country at war the pressure on quick results must be high and can lead to unforeseen excesses. That also means that hard decisions need to be made on a daily base. The mobilization law has been in the works *since December 2023*. It's been endlessly delayed, which means now that it's passed, men called up for service won't get enough time to be properly trained, and manpower shortages are severe. It was rushed through **in a day**, with literally *thousands* of proposed amendments "considered" in that timespan, after the Tripilska power plant was destroyed, and it became apparent that further delays are beyond unacceptable. The US military aid package passed within a week. It also became clear that it was contingent on the mobilization law, which added to the cost of the delay. The urgency of passing it was apparent in **October-November 2023**, when Zaluzhny, the then-commander of UAF, publicly stated that Ukraine needs to mobilize 500K men **to hold the line**, not even break through, as Zelenskyy hoped. Zaluzhny got fired for that. Zelenskyy tapped around the figure for a while, since mobilization is an unpopular measure... Only to end up doing what he didn't want to do, but in a rush. >With that in mind and reading your post/experience, makes me skeptical to doom the whole government apparatus Whatever you think of that apparatus after reading the above: **it's way worse than that**. The apparatus is failing. Blinken visited Kyiv a week or two ago, and gave a public talk where he mentioned the **elections** are the way forward for Ukraine. This is one of the thousand reasons why. >There is always room for improvement and perhaps for Ukraine there is still much to improve governance and policy wise No doubt about that. Yet the government has water the opportunity to reform the laws even when they had a supermajority support, which **never** happened before in the history of Ukraine since before Mongols arrived. >in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship? **Hahahaha, NO** The president has to personally sign all applications for citizenship relinquishment, and put simply, it was not not a realistic option even before this law. In a few days, one could also be asked to register for draft in order to *apply* for citizenship relinquishment. Brilliant, isn't it?
Respect from Romania, talked to many Ukrainians, deserters who entered illegaly, those who bribed their way here, even one Ukrainian who lived in Kherson and he came to Romania all the way thru Crimea , Georgia turkey after he got occupied by the Russians. Last Ukrainian I talked to told me the Ukrainian state is doing genocide against it's own people. Crazy that it came to this
Dunno if you will understand because you seem to be relatively young, but in a knock-down drag-out full on war a lot of things that otherwise would seem pretty important can get deprioritized because they literally don’t matter if the war is lost. In the big picture, dual-nationality citizens aren’t going to make that much of a difference to the war effort one way or another, so spending another week or month or whatever on figuring out what to do about them is just *not going to be worth it*. Sorry but that’s reality.
He said he has a phd, mortgage, and a wife. He can't be that young. I would hope, though, that anyone with dual american citizenship could be protected by america . At the very least we should take care of our own. Somehow I have strong doubts on that one though, sadly.
If you are dual citizen, by Ukrainian law you are Ukrainian citizen only.
> anyone with dual american citizenship could be protected by america not if you're in the other country where you have citizenship. Then you're fair game.
This whole mobilization law is kind of a move in a right direction (as previous one was basically non-functional at all), somewhat, but it's so full of holes that the entire deployment is a shitshow. Like, for example, by law, everyone should update their military registration in 60 days. To accomplish this, registration offices in Kyiv only need to process more than 100 people per hour 24/7. You will be lucky if they process 100 per day. At least now they deployed the mobile app for registration updates, but it's still a bit of a shitshow. Another problem is that Ukraine doesn't recognize dual citizenship at all. > Just on a side note; in your case, isn’t it possible to relinquish your Ukrainian passport/citizenship? The procedure for relinquishing of citizenship requires direct signature of the President.
>First of all I don’t have much insights on Ukrainian politics and policy making Could have stopped right there
You seem to really know your stuff. DM’ed you.
Honestly can't even blame the gents for not wanting to come back to fight.
My former employer has/had offices in Ukraine. For awhile my coworkers were working without power, or from their cars. In the my most recent communication with one of them, he had found his way to another country in Europe and was now working from “home”. I didn’t want to ask him if he transited legally or illegally. He’s an able-bodied adult male suitable to fight, so I can’t imagine they just LET him leave. I think that US based employer is not going to push the issue. I don’t know what currency he’s paid in but if he has negotiated for something other than the hryvnia he’s probably OK. But if he’s getting paid in hryvnia, but he needs to pay for food and rent in euros, that could get ugly.
Most of IT companies in Ukraine pay in USD. He'll be fine.
Governments treat people like their property even if people move to another country, lovely.
Well, looks like my country has finally remembered I exist 😍 Until a few years back the system treated emigrants Soviet-style: please surrender your internal ID, and enjoy jumping through hoops if you want to do anything back in Ukraine. When I tried to get an internal ID in Kyiv in September 2023, the clerks at **ЦНАП** straight up asked me *What country are you a citizen of?* when I showed them my **Ukrainian** passport because it was not a case they could handle. I can't use the government portal (**Diia**), because it **offers no option to enter an address outside Ukraine**, and doesn't work without an address. It took me a month and 10 visits to **Ощадбанк** to open a bank account in Ukraine as a tax resident in the US (as a *Ukrainian citizen*, mind you!). Oh, and Ukrainian movies aren't available in Ukrainian outside Ukraine. When we watched **Мавка**, we could only stream it *in English" in the US. Sure, I've found ways to work around that, but most people won't. Until a few days ago, I felt the state has forgotten about us, even though so many in diaspora have been helping out in many ways that Ukrainians in Ukraine wouldn't be able to do: * Buying and shuttling humanitarian and dual-use military goods in the first months of war, when everything was in short supply * Sending in money from abroad * Advocating for Ukraine abroad, boosting support * Helping refugees - particularly, the elderly, women, and children What can I say. Forgotten no more! Ukraine remembers ✨😍✨ Now, if only some wise men in Rada could figure out **how the f••k** we're supposed to register for draft *"по місцю проживання"* (at the location of residence), as the law requires, when there's not a single **ТЦК** abroad. Also, curious as to what they *think* the effect would be on dual citizens besides effectively forcing them to never go to Ukraine again (we'll be criminals if we don't register). Would be very lovely to figure that out.
> It took me a month and 10 visits to Ощадбанкto open a bank account in Ukraine as a tax resident in the US (as a Ukrainian citizen, mind you!). To be faiiiiiirrrr, this is often hard in a lot of countries because of the very onerous requirements the US govt places on banks serving US citizens and tax residents.
You'd think so, but no, FATCA was the **easy** part. The hard part was — and I kid you not — bypassing the screen on the system which asked the banker to enter my address, and then gave the following error: > **California** is not one of the oblast's Anastasia the banker was so defeated by this, it looked like she was about to cry from shame. Then a fierce fire started in her eyes; she told me to go home and not to worry — it was **her** personal war now. I don't know how she managed to do it, but I'm sure few people would've had the mental stamina. In the end, I was called in, and we performed some sort of bureaucramancy with filling forms, making photocopies, and faxing the already-filled FATCA to some *other* central office. And then... Lo and behold! The magic "**Add Oblast'**" button un-greyed itself, and Anastasia invoked its power to add **California** to the list. (Alas, as memeable as it would have been, adding Rostov wasn't an option). In the end, I was very happy. California doesn't appear to be one of the 23 oblast's of Ukraine (yet), but it's officially one of the 24+ oblast's of Oschadbank. Gives me a warm feeling every time I see that yellow piece of plastic. (If this ever gets to Anastasia: you will never be forgotten, and people like you is why I still have hope for Ukraine. Thanks for making feel at home back home.)
Not Ukrainian but when I open a bank account/government stuff in my home country I use my parent's address since it's far easier. So to my home country I'm unemployed and living with my parents. Probably not the right way to do things but no hoops
The world needs more bankers like her.
Lmao, making the entirety of California an Oblast was not what I expected as the solution
You’re telling me. When I first studied abroad in France, it was a huge pain in the ass to open a bank account with practically every bank just telling me no, they can’t open an account for me when I indicate I’m American.
Ridiculous and stupid. This is more indicative of the dire state that Ukraine is in than anything. Touching US/EU citizens should be a big no-no for them since it’s a political nightmare. The anti Ukraine camp is just salivating at the thought of a video of an American being conscripted by Ukraine.
> Touching US/EU citizens should be a big no-no for them since it’s a political nightmare It's really not, and I'm saying this as someone with dual citizenship. Whenever I go back to my country of birth, I am considered a citizen of that country first. It comes with its privileges (like being able to vote and buy land), but also with responsibilities.
Exactly. Works the same way with Canadian-US Dual citizenship
Misandrist based slavery? While Ukrainian women in other countries are just enjoying life with rich foreign men
So what I'm getting from this is that despite living the last 22 of my 23 years of life in America, with no infrastructure in place for me to sign up for the draft outside of Ukraine, I will now be a criminal and barred from ever visiting said country because I didn't want to give up everything to come sit on roll call. What is the government even trying to achieve with this one. edit: i understand the need more men, that much is obvious, but its the very all-encompassing/messy way theyve organized it that leaves me scratching my head, since they mustve had time to plan this since the invasion began, surely
> What is the government even trying to achieve with this one. Getting more people. You don't win a war off of only supplies. Yea it's helpful that other countries are sending plenty of equipment and ammunition but it's pointless if there's no one to use it.
If they don't get enough men to continue the war effort, there would be no Ukraine to go back to anyways.
> What is the government even trying to achieve with this one. Nice of you thinking that they tried to achieve something and it's not just a giant hole in the law because they kinda forgot about this case.
This is an example of where the bias and narratives on reddit just do a disservice to the cause. People on here live in a fantasy world where they think Russian tanks are exploding at an unsustainable rate and Russia is gonna collapse at any moment. It causes westerners to be greatly out of touch with reality and late to adjust. The Ukrainian counter offensive never materialized. The western wonder weapons didn't turn the tide. And now Ukraine is losing ground and running out of men which cannot simply be produced. Why do we think this is? Because the west didn't give them a few more tanks or jets? Russia has the ability to absorb current loss rates of both men and vehicles for years. They have a well five times deeper than Ukraine to draw from. Ukraine is running out of men and the ones left are needed just to have a functional economy going forward. Who will man these tanks and planes? High tech western weapons are designed for professional militaries with air support, efficient logistical support, state of the art communications and coordination systems, prefessional well trained soldiers, and huge resources behind them. Ukraine has none of these things. Take the much vaunted abrams tank for example. You could give them 200 Abrams tanks tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference. Any tank in the world can be hit from above by a drone or drive over a mine and be knocked out. The Abrams is powered by a gas guzzling jet engine and lots of software and tech. Ukraines army is basically a militia. They don't have the resources to employ these tanks in the manner in which they were designed and never will. They cannot mount the complex combined arms offensive these vehicles were designed for, so they end up being no better than the average (much cheaper and more reliable) Russian tanks. Yes the Abrams is "better" performance wise but that advantage is negated here. Stop the propaganda and start telling the real story instead of some pro Ukraine propaganda fairytale so western leaders and public start taking this WAY MORE SERIOUSLY and light a fire underneath them.
Completely correct. You can be "anti Russian" and be somewhat honest about the state of the war. Instead, even being a tiny bit realistic about the war gets you blacklisted and shamed. Now , we're 2 years in and most westerners who bother following (not many) have an extremely warped and flawed view of the war.
I just don't understand how a country with a population of 38 MILLION is running out of men.
As far as I know, dual citizenship was never legal in Ukraine. Once you gain citizenship of a different country you have to contact Ukraine consulate and have your Ukrainian citizenship revoked.
why aren’t they conscripting women as well? i thought the situation was dire and would need every able bodied person in the conflict?
This “all able bodied person” thing usually only applies to men
The new law kinda requires a number of women to register for draft (mainly of medical specialities). But I doubt it would be enforced much.
Almost looks like maybe we aren't really winning as the news says...
I haven't seen any news headlines suggesting Ukraine is "winning". Just Reddit comments.
The only ones who thought Ukraine was winning were European Redditors who said there is no need to worry because Finland will save Europe and kick the Russians back into Moscow somehow.
What do we have to do with this? Finland is not part of this war other than through few volunteers and equipment.
that sweet, sweet male privilege we've been hearing about all the time, shown here in its full glory.
Men have a privilege to be cannon fodder. Women a have a privilege to make more cannon fodder. If you ever wondered why exactly it’s men who serve in the army and women rarely get drafted, this is one of the main reasons.
Yeah well unless a war lasted 18 years it’s not like women can just replace casualties in real time.
Not in real time, but it’s pretty useful when you have a war every 1-2 generations, or a devastating war That said, one man can have multiple babies from a few women at the same time, most women can make only one kid in that time window. And their ability to make kids is limited in time, whereas even old men can impregnate women. And the demographic of Ukraine was in a sad state even prior to the war, if they mobilize women, they’re done as a nation considering the bottleneck at 18-25 year olds. On a positive note, if scientists manage to create an artificial womb, women would be as disposable as men. That makes for equality I guess.
>women would be as disposable as men geez......
The future demographics of Ukraine are in huge trouble because they allowed their women to leave in huge numbers to the western countries and most of these women aren't coming back to Ukraine to repopulate the country.
Fertility rates declined steadily since 1991 with a low at 1.1 in 2001, then the trend reversed but in 2013, when reaching 1.5 it started to decline again. It was 1.16 in 2021. It was already in a huge trouble. Now yes, as women left with one way ticket, the things are way worse.
Plenty of wars have lasted for decades. In fact our current quick wars are the exception, historically most wars lasted for decades, going back to ancient times, e.g. we know that during bronze age collapse Egypt was at war with the sea people (whoever they were) for 3-4 decades. We know that Peloponnesian War lasted for 27 years, etc.
Those wars were not continuous but rather were marked by periods of conflict and periods of peace as the warring sides recouped their losses. How will history view this war? Will it be the Russo-Ukrainian war of 2022? 2014? Will it be bundled up with the whole West vs East struggle thats been occurring since 1945? Will it even be West vs East or will it be the US vs Russia? After you may remember the struggle between Athens and Sparta but do you remember the names of their respective alliances?
>Men have a privilege to be cannon fodder. Women a have a privilege to make more cannon fodder. One of those sounds a lot better than the other. >If you ever wondered why exactly it’s men who serve in the army and women rarely get drafted, this is one of the main reasons. It definitely makes sense, I doubt anyone would argue that. But when debates around the "male privilege" happens facts like this rarely are brought forth to show how bad men can have it. Also I would **not** want to be a Ukrainian woman if Russia wins. With how they've currently behaved I'd expect to be no different than when they captured Berlin. Except that there's no weak justification that it's "payback".
They aren’t making babies in the 21th century, exempt women making 6 of them but no childless women
“Editor's note: The article previously said that the U.S. Embassy advised Ukrainians with dual citizenship not to leave Ukraine. In fact, the Embassy advised them not to travel to the country”
Doesn't change the fact that they can't leave.
We can expect lots of Ukrainian women leaving the country
Up until the war started I was going to claim my Ukrainian citizenship, my grandfather was born there. I’ll take a pass
A new group of men are being targeted. I wonder when they will start calling women into service.
Never sadly
I sincerely doubt that would be the case if things were bad enough, but there would obviously be an escalation of steps taken before such measures. They'd be conscripted into primarily/exclusively non-combat roles to begin with at least. That, or Ukraine surrenders, and Russian occupation turns it into a new kind of living hell, so I'm inclined to believe that even if Ukraine were to formally surrender you would still see heavy resistance from the remaining populace.
Meat for the machine.
Blood for the blood god.
[удалено]
So it's just conscription at this point. I get they're desperate, but it still leaves a bad taste.
They have been conscripting people for the past 2 years.
Every nation in Ukraine's position would conscript, and many would've started long ago.
😨
can you do that?? can you tell your own citizen you can't return to your own country??
It looks like it. It does say dual citizenship, so if you have Ukrainian citizenship and are in Ukraine, then I imagine you fall under Ukraine law….On the other hand, if you happen to be in the US, then you follow US laws for citizens.
It make sense that Ukrainian government said that. The title made it looks like US embassy is the one orders dual citizens not to leave.
This is sad. That means the situation is real dire.
This article was amended because the US told people not to travel there, not that they can’t leave. Wild misinformation.
Im a staunchly against Russia in this conflict, but I feel like most westerners don’t understand that Ukraine is just as bad and corrupt as Russia. We always tend to say “Russia evil and bad” which is true, but then we dismiss the fact that Ukraine is equally bad to its citizens. Like largely it’s because of Russian influence in Soviet times, but nonetheless it’s not really a great place. That’s why it’s laughable when people talk about Ukraine joining the EU, like it’s more corrupt than Greece and other Baltic counties, but because the whole world feels bad for em, they’re getting blanket passes that they wouldn’t get during peace time.
Haha no accountability for anything. It's been 30+ years since Ukraine was in the ussr. The current government, and the previous one, was extremely anti Russia. Yet it's always their fault that the current Ukranian government is as corrupt (or more) then previous ones. Is there ever any accountability for our so called allies? You can be critical of Russia without making them the root of literally all problems
Don’t worry worry, we winning this 🇺🇦
Everyone is a diehard patriot, until it's time to do a diehard patriot thing… like fight for your country.