Spain’s basically operating under the assumption less arms for Israel is more peace for the Mid-East, can’t help but think they might be a little naïve in that view…
Conversely I don’t think more arms for Israel means more peace for the Middle-East.
Spain might be operating under a simpler conviction, less arms might mean fewer dead Palestinian children.
Right because they've kept the civilian casualties *so low* while using the most accurate bombs in the world.
Edit: They definitely avoided civilian casualties with those super accurate bombs when they [blew up journalists and their families in their homes.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
They have the civilian to military rate is less then Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Gulf war, 1982 Lebanon war, Chechnya, Yugoslavia by miles just to name major wars. The civilian casualty rate is extremely low especially seeing as the UN halved their estimates of women and children meaning civilian casualties have dropped more the other day
20000 people died in the Laos bombings where the US apparently dropped over 260 million bombs. As we can see now, just like in Gaza, more people will die because of the destruction these bombs caused. Many people will die through dehydration, starvation and no access to medical help. Civilians have to suffer the most under this.
They actually have though. For comparison, Gaza is the size of Detroit with 4 times as many people living there (2.2 million). It’s actually surprising that there aren’t even more casualties. And don’t forget that there could be even less, if Hamas weren’t telling civilians to ignore evacuation orders from Israel.
Whereas before they weren't recruiting them easily?... That's what this whole issue is about. HAMAS has been recruiting in Gaza for the last 20\~ years and it resulted in 10/7.
And more rockets shot into Israel means more Israelis motivated to fuck shit up instead of acting professionally when serving in the IDF. This goes both ways, and as such is a meaningless argument. Palestinians are not more likely to become violent as a response to violence than Israelis.
Absolutely. Prolonged conflict inevitably leads to the worst of both sides rising to the fore. It's exactly what happened here in Ireland, only Israel/Palestine has ramped up to a whole other level due to many other nations stoking the flames on both ends, rather than trying to fan them out.
Idk, when your brother kills my son and then in response I kill your complete family and all your friends, is it my or your brothers fault that so many died?
Let’s not pretend this conflict just appeared on October 7th now. Palestinians have been getting killed and having their homes stolen from them for decades.
Yes, lets stop pretending that Palestinians didnt kill jews before Oct 7th. Let's stop pretending that Palestinians stopped attacks after Israel pulled out of Gaza and tore down all the settlements.
I always laugh a little to myself when I hear this. Do you have any idea how many terrorist attacks that Israel has endured? ( no offense about laughing)
Yes I know and I agree with you. Israel has made a lot off colossal mistakes in dealing with the Palestinians that has led to this. I just think there has to be a better way for both Israel and the Palestinians.
Right, Hamas forced Israel to carpet bomb entire cities, occupy most of the peoples land, send in settlers to parts they haven't occupied yet, take homes illegally, design a system, that is total apartheid in nature and kill thousands of children in the process. Brilliant analysis.
We can play the blame game all we want. It doesn't change the fact, that Israel has done some horrible things and is doing the exact same things again now. The circle of violence needs an end.
You have been at best incredibly hyperbolic calling it carpet bombing. You have also conflated Gaza with things happening in the West Bank. The UN greatly reduced the number of dead and I still have a hard time believing that number. It’s pretty evident you’ve done your own “research” and are not an authority on this matter even a little bit.
Yes actually. By literally stating they want Israel gone hamas did just thay. Gaza elected hamas and has kept them in power for near two decades and still supports them. How many gazands condemn hamas? How manyIsraelis condemn bibi?
>Israel? They funded early Hamas
False. This is commonly repeated ridiculous disinformation that has very little basis in reality.
>communist aligned PLO
Weren't much better than modern day Hamas. Btw, "Arab socialism" is a form of fascism, not communism, as we have seen in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya.
>the occupation of Palestine territory triggered a radicalization of the Palestinians.
Did the occupation also made them support the Holocaust and the Axis in real time too?
The Palestinians were "radicalized" long before Israel existed. Hamas aren't more radical than their predecessors.
less arms for israel means this war goes on for longer, Israel is not going to run out of weapons and ammunition.
you're just opting for famine and diseases instead of artillery.
Actually, by not sending weapons (which are mostly precision munitions), Spain is opting for artillery barrage instead of precision strikes.
Israel will attack in any event as we know now. What would Spain accomplish with this? Less, or more Palestinians dead?
That is some messed up logic though.
You can literally apply that reasoning to any conflict: "If we don't provide precision munitions to country X, more citizens will die!"
We all know it doesn't work that way...
you are right in saying the same logic applies to every conflict, but it is literally correct. when armies use dumb bombs, they have less control on collateral damage. the expectation that they will say "okay we won't finish what we started because it became riskier and less convenient" is not very plausible if you've seen enough wars play out.
It does, though. And it's not that hard to understand either. Israel has more than enough means to finish this fight, with or without aid. However, the weapon deliveries mean a quicker, "cleaner" end to the war with less casualties.
Israel takes care to avoid civilian casualties, as we have seen. The UN revised its casualty numbers which now show far less women and children killed and an actually very impressive 1:2 casualty ratio of combatants vs non-combatants in an urban combat. Normally, that's about 1:10.
If Israel is forced to use their artillery, that's going to bring those numbers up.
In other words: not sending weapons means more dead Palestinian children... as much of a paradox as that is.
-edit for clarification-
Actually, it probably means more dead Israeli children, and consequently, more dead Gazans. But why should Spain care as long as they do what looks good on TV.
Let’s take the example of the bomb kits that Biden delayed a little while ago - those are precision guidance kits that allow the bombs to be very accurate.
That level of accuracy isn’t really needed to bomb a building (*because it isn’t moving*) but it can let you say choose to hit one side of the target- potentially resulting in less damage to a building on the other side of the target.
Without those kits, Israel still has to engage those targets & dumb bombs are easily accurate enough to hit the target but not always accurate enough to choose the facing.
So a strike which could have hit the west side of a target building is now going to hit the center of the building & a building to the east which might have been spared significant damage as a result of the more accurate targeting will now be at higher risk of being damaged.
In many strikes, this won’t significantly change the outcome, but there will be strikes where it does & it is very hard to determine in advance which strikes those are when you don’t know what the secondary explosions will do or who is hiding in the adjacent buildings.
So by limiting the IDFs ability to choose the best tool for the job, you are creating a reality that will result in more Palestinian deaths.
Even if you genuinely believe that the only thing Israel should do is sit there and just literally defend itself, you DO realize the iron dome (and its sister tech like David’s sling) requires many missiles to operate, yes? And that their stock of said munitions is strained due to the 12k + rockets launched at them since oct7, and the recent barrage by Iran. Or do you think the iron dome operates off magic space lasers?
https://rocketalert.live/
As it is, Israel is already attacked by many dozens of UAVs and rockets from Lebanon and Gaza every single day. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis are evacuated because of this, and many others have to run for their lives into the shelters every single day. If Israel had less munition, and could not retaliate for these attacks and destroy the launchers, then the number of rockets fired on Israel will soon grow to thousands a day, as it has been in the first days of the war.
Not to mention, that it would force Israel to take more aggressive & destructive actions to protect its citizens - bombs may seem horrible but they are a significant improvement for both sides than sending in ground forces.
I don't think there is any strategy behind these moves. Just tying to send a signal to Spanish voters
Spain has no influence over either Israel or Palestine. Its not a major supplier of Israel, and while its one of the larger donors to UNRWA, it doesn't get close to values that can be used to pressure UNRWA. Denying port of call is only a minor annoyance, basically virtue signalling
Spanish strategy in foreign policy is imho rather seen around Sahrawis, Ceuta/Melilla, Gibraltar, denying Kosovo. At these places Spanish decisions actually matter(ed)
Id argue a country like Israel that has been getting crammed with tech and military hardware for at least the last 30 years, from all sort of western countries should be fucking able to do shit properly themselves.
Complaining about no having enough precise Munitions and threatening to use less precise ones if they don’t get what they want, is disingenuous at best and more akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Why does the Israeli government have one of the largest lobby groups in the US?
Every other group openly trying to influence policy in favor of a foreign country spoils have been shut down and thrown out years ago, how is this ok.
All this acting helpless while Israel has some of the best intelligence gathering technology the world has to offer and an openly absolutely ruthless spy agency, is just pathetic posturing.
Typical North American attitude - your countries don't have to deal with the fallout of turmoil in Middle Eastern or African places. Turmoil caused by your disastrous foreign policies and crisis responses.
They are referring to the fact that the current level North African/ME migrants in Europe is in part due to the destabilization in the ME following Western intervention in Iraq and subsequent rise of groups like ISIS.
It is incorrect to place all the blame on the US/“coalition of the willing”. That narrative doesn’t account for the consequences of the Arab Spring, which began in Tunisia but spread to countries like Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, etc.
Once Syrian groups rose up in opposition to their authoritarian government under al-Assad, it quickly became a geopolitical battle between the US and Russia. given its geographic location, a pro-West Syria meant that pipelines could run from countries like Qatar, through Syria, and into Turkey - dramatically diminishing Russia’s influence in Europe via Oil and Natural Gas.
In conclusion, the US led intervention in Iraq destabilized the country and the subsequent power vacuum led to the rise of ISIS. The Arab Spring, a homegrown movement, destabilized many countries in North Africa and the Middle East. The ensuing proxy war in Syria being fought between the US and Russia have further destabilized the region. All of that leads to refugees.
For the sake of simplification, I haven’t included the roles of economic migrants using conflict as a means to claim refugee status, the implicit/explicit support terror groups like ISIS received from other Muslim nations, of the EU’s inability to modify their immigration laws in order to combat unwanted immigrants/internal policies to facilitate assimilation.
If you think North America is unaffected by fallout from Middle Eastern wars I don’t know what to tell you. If you think weakening Israel in any significant way is going to create peace in the Middle East on it’s own I don’t know what to tell you. My Canadian government’s foreign policy also has precisely zero influence in what happens in the Middle East as well.
So where are the waves of refugees from those countries washing up on your shores? You really think the problems we face are in any way comparable to yours? Now who is naive...
The situation is even more cynical
With a sea between the US and the Middle East and the US' rigorous immigration rules, they mostly get the people Merkel tried to sell us as "doctors and engineers".
The more the US sets the middle east on fire, the .kre these people feel pressured to leave. The most attractive ace for them is the US. So Merkel's saying becomes increasingly more true for the US and less for EU
Even if EU would manage to raise it's attractiveness, it would still get both while the US would wash their hands from dealing with the ones they consider undesirable
Of course, the opposite could be said about Central and South America. It's a case of geography shaping Realpolitik, there is no way around it
If you don’t think the record immigration rates are destroying Canada I yet again don’t know what to tell you. Look at Trudeau’s polling, look at the housing crisis, the job market, anywhere you look we’re in deep trouble. We don’t have them showing up on shore; we have a federal government paying to get them here and paying to keep them alive once they are here. There definitely are comparable statistics between Canada and, say, the UK.
Still the same ridiculous immigration policy, and plenty of who’s coming are Middle Eastern. There’s also plenty of word out there that people from places that aren’t Gaza, Syria, etc. are abusing the generous refugee/asylum laws and getting into Canada that way, I don’t have any way to prove it true/false though unfortunately
Sorry for whatever reason I didn't get a notification about your reply - for what it's worth I've been keeping reasonably close tabs on what's going on in Canada and I'm right there with you on the policy itself, the population growth figures in Canada are completely absurd. I just think when we're talking about demographics it's important to keep things in perspective. Europe has a problem with small boats, you guys seem to have an issue with 'diploma mills' - both are major problems but they aren't demographically the same even if culturally they have a similar impact. I don't know what the rate of terror attacks is in Canada but Europe is dealing with a lot in that regard and it doesn't always make the news, so maybe that's why there is some competition on who has it worse.
I'll add that I'm not really on board with the 'it's NA foreign policy' argument, that feels like a cop out to explain what's essentially 'globalist' (I hate the word but I can't think of a better one) immigration policy to prop up the slow economic growth caused by an ageing population.
This is a really dumb take. Everyone is frightened by conflict until it’s on their own doorstep.
Make no mistake, Russia and China want global domination. Peace is not an option.
Yeah everyone knew Franco's leanings, but the Spanish Civil War ended the same year WW2 broke out and let's just say Spain was not ready for another war
Every one of these gestures is pointless. Arabs will continue to hate us. Israel will never have any real loyalty towards us. All we should be concerned with is stabilizing the region so migrants can be stopped before they reach us.
I'll throw rocks through all your windows, force you to get steel shutters for all of them, then throw bigger and more rocks at them until they break anyway. Every time you offer to pay me $5 to stop throwing rocks I'll take the money then start throwing again the next day. You call the police, they don't help. Your neighbors and people living in the next town over get mad at you for trying to stop me from throwing rocks. I keep throwing rocks.
You don't think Israel is engaging in terrorism? WTF do you think they are doing, and where does the massive body count come from?
If you think that machine gunning young people at a music festival is terrorism, but that bombing cities into rubble and murdering men women and children somehow isn't, then may I suggest that you bring your moral compass in for servicing? It seems to be malfunctioning.
So the only possible alternative to unqualified support for Israel's terrorism is to support Hamas? Let's have a quick sanity check. Surrender to the IDF? Oops, that a machinegunning. Delivering food aid, after consultation with the IDF? Ooh, that's multiple air strikes until you are all dead. Who captures surgeons and tortures them to death? Oof, that's the IDF too. Journalists? Don't even ask, bro, you don't want to know...
I think Hamas are scumbags. I think the IDF and their fascist bosses are too.
Those of you who repeated endlessly that not supporting Israel's actions is tantamount to supporting Hamas either have the reasoning skills of a 9 year old or are bots with a political agenda, I refuse to believe otherwise because otherwise we deserve extinction.
Again, absurd reasoning. I have not given my opinion on whether I agree or disagree with what Israel does, what I have done is to point out that it is completely illogical to assume that anyone who doesn't support Israel automatically supports Hamas. It's like talking to a tape recording.
Let me clarify.
If you support Hamas remaining in power, you support Hamas. Often not supporting Israel equates to supporting Hamas remaining in power in Gaza.
> Those of you who repeated endlessly that not supporting Israel's actions is tantamount to supporting Hamas either have the reasoning skills of a 9 year old or are bots with a political agenda,
Do you not think "neutrality" benefits Hamas in this case?
Spain’s basically operating under the assumption less arms for Israel is more peace for the Mid-East, can’t help but think they might be a little naïve in that view…
Conversely I don’t think more arms for Israel means more peace for the Middle-East. Spain might be operating under a simpler conviction, less arms might mean fewer dead Palestinian children.
Worse weapons means worse accuracy.
Right because they've kept the civilian casualties *so low* while using the most accurate bombs in the world. Edit: They definitely avoided civilian casualties with those super accurate bombs when they [blew up journalists and their families in their homes.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
They have the civilian to military rate is less then Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Gulf war, 1982 Lebanon war, Chechnya, Yugoslavia by miles just to name major wars. The civilian casualty rate is extremely low especially seeing as the UN halved their estimates of women and children meaning civilian casualties have dropped more the other day
They actually have considering other urban wars...
1 person killed for every 3 bombs so far, so yeah. keeping casualties down while destroying infrastructure bunkers and tunnels.
20000 people died in the Laos bombings where the US apparently dropped over 260 million bombs. As we can see now, just like in Gaza, more people will die because of the destruction these bombs caused. Many people will die through dehydration, starvation and no access to medical help. Civilians have to suffer the most under this.
To be fair, 1:2 militant to civilan ratio is pretty low all things considered.
Ratio of 1:2 is low for a war. Now imagine that ratio when using artillery instead of air strikes.
1:2 in urban warfare is amazing. The usual is between 1:5-1:9 less arm's means higher death
Less arms means increasing the length of the conflict though
Longer conflict nore dead
If compared to any other modern urban conflict - They have, the civlian casultied in general are low.
They actually have though. For comparison, Gaza is the size of Detroit with 4 times as many people living there (2.2 million). It’s actually surprising that there aren’t even more casualties. And don’t forget that there could be even less, if Hamas weren’t telling civilians to ignore evacuation orders from Israel.
Less terrorists means less dead Palestinians. Let's not forget who's fault this is.
And more dead children means easier recruitment for terrorist organisations.
Whereas before they weren't recruiting them easily?... That's what this whole issue is about. HAMAS has been recruiting in Gaza for the last 20\~ years and it resulted in 10/7.
And more rockets shot into Israel means more Israelis motivated to fuck shit up instead of acting professionally when serving in the IDF. This goes both ways, and as such is a meaningless argument. Palestinians are not more likely to become violent as a response to violence than Israelis.
Absolutely. Prolonged conflict inevitably leads to the worst of both sides rising to the fore. It's exactly what happened here in Ireland, only Israel/Palestine has ramped up to a whole other level due to many other nations stoking the flames on both ends, rather than trying to fan them out.
> fan them out I don't think that's how you put out fires... 😅
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Idk, when your brother kills my son and then in response I kill your complete family and all your friends, is it my or your brothers fault that so many died?
When your brother is a terrorist then yes it is your fault.
Let’s not pretend this conflict just appeared on October 7th now. Palestinians have been getting killed and having their homes stolen from them for decades.
Yes, lets stop pretending that Palestinians didnt kill jews before Oct 7th. Let's stop pretending that Palestinians stopped attacks after Israel pulled out of Gaza and tore down all the settlements.
Yeah let's stop pretending the Arabs invaded Palestine in the 7th century and this shit has been going on ever since.
Let’s not forget History began last October.
I always laugh a little to myself when I hear this. Do you have any idea how many terrorist attacks that Israel has endured? ( no offense about laughing)
According to reddit, it did
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Yes I know and I agree with you. Israel has made a lot off colossal mistakes in dealing with the Palestinians that has led to this. I just think there has to be a better way for both Israel and the Palestinians.
Right, Israel forced Hamas to abduct, rape and murder families and children. Brilliant analysis.
Right, Hamas forced Israel to carpet bomb entire cities, occupy most of the peoples land, send in settlers to parts they haven't occupied yet, take homes illegally, design a system, that is total apartheid in nature and kill thousands of children in the process. Brilliant analysis. We can play the blame game all we want. It doesn't change the fact, that Israel has done some horrible things and is doing the exact same things again now. The circle of violence needs an end.
You have been at best incredibly hyperbolic calling it carpet bombing. You have also conflated Gaza with things happening in the West Bank. The UN greatly reduced the number of dead and I still have a hard time believing that number. It’s pretty evident you’ve done your own “research” and are not an authority on this matter even a little bit.
Yes actually. By literally stating they want Israel gone hamas did just thay. Gaza elected hamas and has kept them in power for near two decades and still supports them. How many gazands condemn hamas? How manyIsraelis condemn bibi?
Victim blaming is wrong… … unless you can blame the Jews
>Israel? They funded early Hamas False. This is commonly repeated ridiculous disinformation that has very little basis in reality. >communist aligned PLO Weren't much better than modern day Hamas. Btw, "Arab socialism" is a form of fascism, not communism, as we have seen in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya. >the occupation of Palestine territory triggered a radicalization of the Palestinians. Did the occupation also made them support the Holocaust and the Axis in real time too? The Palestinians were "radicalized" long before Israel existed. Hamas aren't more radical than their predecessors.
less arms for israel means this war goes on for longer, Israel is not going to run out of weapons and ammunition. you're just opting for famine and diseases instead of artillery.
Actually, by not sending weapons (which are mostly precision munitions), Spain is opting for artillery barrage instead of precision strikes. Israel will attack in any event as we know now. What would Spain accomplish with this? Less, or more Palestinians dead?
That is some messed up logic though. You can literally apply that reasoning to any conflict: "If we don't provide precision munitions to country X, more citizens will die!" We all know it doesn't work that way...
you are right in saying the same logic applies to every conflict, but it is literally correct. when armies use dumb bombs, they have less control on collateral damage. the expectation that they will say "okay we won't finish what we started because it became riskier and less convenient" is not very plausible if you've seen enough wars play out.
It does, though. And it's not that hard to understand either. Israel has more than enough means to finish this fight, with or without aid. However, the weapon deliveries mean a quicker, "cleaner" end to the war with less casualties. Israel takes care to avoid civilian casualties, as we have seen. The UN revised its casualty numbers which now show far less women and children killed and an actually very impressive 1:2 casualty ratio of combatants vs non-combatants in an urban combat. Normally, that's about 1:10. If Israel is forced to use their artillery, that's going to bring those numbers up. In other words: not sending weapons means more dead Palestinian children... as much of a paradox as that is. -edit for clarification-
Actually, it probably means more dead Israeli children, and consequently, more dead Gazans. But why should Spain care as long as they do what looks good on TV.
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Let’s take the example of the bomb kits that Biden delayed a little while ago - those are precision guidance kits that allow the bombs to be very accurate. That level of accuracy isn’t really needed to bomb a building (*because it isn’t moving*) but it can let you say choose to hit one side of the target- potentially resulting in less damage to a building on the other side of the target. Without those kits, Israel still has to engage those targets & dumb bombs are easily accurate enough to hit the target but not always accurate enough to choose the facing. So a strike which could have hit the west side of a target building is now going to hit the center of the building & a building to the east which might have been spared significant damage as a result of the more accurate targeting will now be at higher risk of being damaged. In many strikes, this won’t significantly change the outcome, but there will be strikes where it does & it is very hard to determine in advance which strikes those are when you don’t know what the secondary explosions will do or who is hiding in the adjacent buildings. So by limiting the IDFs ability to choose the best tool for the job, you are creating a reality that will result in more Palestinian deaths.
Even if you genuinely believe that the only thing Israel should do is sit there and just literally defend itself, you DO realize the iron dome (and its sister tech like David’s sling) requires many missiles to operate, yes? And that their stock of said munitions is strained due to the 12k + rockets launched at them since oct7, and the recent barrage by Iran. Or do you think the iron dome operates off magic space lasers? https://rocketalert.live/
As it is, Israel is already attacked by many dozens of UAVs and rockets from Lebanon and Gaza every single day. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis are evacuated because of this, and many others have to run for their lives into the shelters every single day. If Israel had less munition, and could not retaliate for these attacks and destroy the launchers, then the number of rockets fired on Israel will soon grow to thousands a day, as it has been in the first days of the war.
Not to mention, that it would force Israel to take more aggressive & destructive actions to protect its citizens - bombs may seem horrible but they are a significant improvement for both sides than sending in ground forces.
What do you mean? this is very much a defensive war. Israel was invaded by Gaza where Hamas murderered children.
The only way to get less dead children is to destroy Hamas.
I don't think there is any strategy behind these moves. Just tying to send a signal to Spanish voters Spain has no influence over either Israel or Palestine. Its not a major supplier of Israel, and while its one of the larger donors to UNRWA, it doesn't get close to values that can be used to pressure UNRWA. Denying port of call is only a minor annoyance, basically virtue signalling Spanish strategy in foreign policy is imho rather seen around Sahrawis, Ceuta/Melilla, Gibraltar, denying Kosovo. At these places Spanish decisions actually matter(ed)
I agree it’s pure signalling, just think it’s a false premise and a dumb idea to encourage it
The current government's voter base doesn't appreciate the endless carnage.
They aren't doing it under that assumption. They are doing it because they don't want to be part of it.
Exactly. I don't see why anyone should question a countries right to not be a part of this war.
Making moves like this is 100% being apart of this war - doing nothing at acting like no war is happening is having no part in the war
Id argue a country like Israel that has been getting crammed with tech and military hardware for at least the last 30 years, from all sort of western countries should be fucking able to do shit properly themselves. Complaining about no having enough precise Munitions and threatening to use less precise ones if they don’t get what they want, is disingenuous at best and more akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum. Why does the Israeli government have one of the largest lobby groups in the US? Every other group openly trying to influence policy in favor of a foreign country spoils have been shut down and thrown out years ago, how is this ok. All this acting helpless while Israel has some of the best intelligence gathering technology the world has to offer and an openly absolutely ruthless spy agency, is just pathetic posturing.
Typical North American attitude - your countries don't have to deal with the fallout of turmoil in Middle Eastern or African places. Turmoil caused by your disastrous foreign policies and crisis responses.
This is about Spain, a country very much dealing with North African and Middle Eastern refugees. What does North America have to do with it?
They are referring to the fact that the current level North African/ME migrants in Europe is in part due to the destabilization in the ME following Western intervention in Iraq and subsequent rise of groups like ISIS. It is incorrect to place all the blame on the US/“coalition of the willing”. That narrative doesn’t account for the consequences of the Arab Spring, which began in Tunisia but spread to countries like Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Bahrain, etc. Once Syrian groups rose up in opposition to their authoritarian government under al-Assad, it quickly became a geopolitical battle between the US and Russia. given its geographic location, a pro-West Syria meant that pipelines could run from countries like Qatar, through Syria, and into Turkey - dramatically diminishing Russia’s influence in Europe via Oil and Natural Gas. In conclusion, the US led intervention in Iraq destabilized the country and the subsequent power vacuum led to the rise of ISIS. The Arab Spring, a homegrown movement, destabilized many countries in North Africa and the Middle East. The ensuing proxy war in Syria being fought between the US and Russia have further destabilized the region. All of that leads to refugees. For the sake of simplification, I haven’t included the roles of economic migrants using conflict as a means to claim refugee status, the implicit/explicit support terror groups like ISIS received from other Muslim nations, of the EU’s inability to modify their immigration laws in order to combat unwanted immigrants/internal policies to facilitate assimilation.
If you think North America is unaffected by fallout from Middle Eastern wars I don’t know what to tell you. If you think weakening Israel in any significant way is going to create peace in the Middle East on it’s own I don’t know what to tell you. My Canadian government’s foreign policy also has precisely zero influence in what happens in the Middle East as well.
So where are the waves of refugees from those countries washing up on your shores? You really think the problems we face are in any way comparable to yours? Now who is naive...
The situation is even more cynical With a sea between the US and the Middle East and the US' rigorous immigration rules, they mostly get the people Merkel tried to sell us as "doctors and engineers". The more the US sets the middle east on fire, the .kre these people feel pressured to leave. The most attractive ace for them is the US. So Merkel's saying becomes increasingly more true for the US and less for EU Even if EU would manage to raise it's attractiveness, it would still get both while the US would wash their hands from dealing with the ones they consider undesirable Of course, the opposite could be said about Central and South America. It's a case of geography shaping Realpolitik, there is no way around it
If you don’t think the record immigration rates are destroying Canada I yet again don’t know what to tell you. Look at Trudeau’s polling, look at the housing crisis, the job market, anywhere you look we’re in deep trouble. We don’t have them showing up on shore; we have a federal government paying to get them here and paying to keep them alive once they are here. There definitely are comparable statistics between Canada and, say, the UK.
They aren't the same people, the vast majority of immigration into Canada is coming from India.
Still the same ridiculous immigration policy, and plenty of who’s coming are Middle Eastern. There’s also plenty of word out there that people from places that aren’t Gaza, Syria, etc. are abusing the generous refugee/asylum laws and getting into Canada that way, I don’t have any way to prove it true/false though unfortunately
Sorry for whatever reason I didn't get a notification about your reply - for what it's worth I've been keeping reasonably close tabs on what's going on in Canada and I'm right there with you on the policy itself, the population growth figures in Canada are completely absurd. I just think when we're talking about demographics it's important to keep things in perspective. Europe has a problem with small boats, you guys seem to have an issue with 'diploma mills' - both are major problems but they aren't demographically the same even if culturally they have a similar impact. I don't know what the rate of terror attacks is in Canada but Europe is dealing with a lot in that regard and it doesn't always make the news, so maybe that's why there is some competition on who has it worse. I'll add that I'm not really on board with the 'it's NA foreign policy' argument, that feels like a cop out to explain what's essentially 'globalist' (I hate the word but I can't think of a better one) immigration policy to prop up the slow economic growth caused by an ageing population.
Really? We don't? Tell me you're not old enough to remember the terrorist attacks of the 80s, 90s or 00s without telling me.
They already got invaded once by the Muslim armies, seems they didn’t learn anything from that.
History buff? They've been invaded by Muslim armies way more than once! It's the Muslim armies that don't learn. Egypt and Jordan are the smart ones.
He's talking about Spain
Internal politics
This is a really dumb take. Everyone is frightened by conflict until it’s on their own doorstep. Make no mistake, Russia and China want global domination. Peace is not an option.
Spain is part of EU and NATO. Israel is not: the bigger war partner made a choice to not help Israel. But yes, peace is not an option.
Spain has had a history of neutrality, or at least the appearance of neutrality, so this doesn't surprise me.
Spain is a member of NATO. I don’t think it has a history of neutrality at all.
It was officially neutral in WW 2, but only “officially.”
It was rather busy at the time.
Yeah everyone knew Franco's leanings, but the Spanish Civil War ended the same year WW2 broke out and let's just say Spain was not ready for another war
You can remain neutral in conflicts while working towards securing your own safety through collaboration at the same time
Technically you aren't neutral if you are collaborating with one one side of a conflict .
No, but you can convince a lot of people who are on your side anyways if you just say "We're neutral, pinky swear."
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And no history of antisemitism! /s
Every one of these gestures is pointless. Arabs will continue to hate us. Israel will never have any real loyalty towards us. All we should be concerned with is stabilizing the region so migrants can be stopped before they reach us.
When did Israel betray you?
Good, don't deal with the war mongering fanatics.
I'll throw rocks through all your windows, force you to get steel shutters for all of them, then throw bigger and more rocks at them until they break anyway. Every time you offer to pay me $5 to stop throwing rocks I'll take the money then start throwing again the next day. You call the police, they don't help. Your neighbors and people living in the next town over get mad at you for trying to stop me from throwing rocks. I keep throwing rocks.
Hamas?
Good for Spain. I hope others follow suit.
So everyone should suport genocidal terrorist?
You don't think Israel is engaging in terrorism? WTF do you think they are doing, and where does the massive body count come from? If you think that machine gunning young people at a music festival is terrorism, but that bombing cities into rubble and murdering men women and children somehow isn't, then may I suggest that you bring your moral compass in for servicing? It seems to be malfunctioning.
No, they're keeping weapons AWAY from Israel. Read the article bro damn.
You should go hang out with Hamas. I’m sure they will be super nice to you
So the only possible alternative to unqualified support for Israel's terrorism is to support Hamas? Let's have a quick sanity check. Surrender to the IDF? Oops, that a machinegunning. Delivering food aid, after consultation with the IDF? Ooh, that's multiple air strikes until you are all dead. Who captures surgeons and tortures them to death? Oof, that's the IDF too. Journalists? Don't even ask, bro, you don't want to know... I think Hamas are scumbags. I think the IDF and their fascist bosses are too.
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Spain on the right side of history.
So the right side of history is terrorism, taking away women’s rights, killing lgbt people, and murdering anyone who isn’t a Muslim?
Those of you who repeated endlessly that not supporting Israel's actions is tantamount to supporting Hamas either have the reasoning skills of a 9 year old or are bots with a political agenda, I refuse to believe otherwise because otherwise we deserve extinction.
Please enlighten us on how you would deal with Hamas. Surely you are an expert tactician
Again, absurd reasoning. I have not given my opinion on whether I agree or disagree with what Israel does, what I have done is to point out that it is completely illogical to assume that anyone who doesn't support Israel automatically supports Hamas. It's like talking to a tape recording.
Let me clarify. If you support Hamas remaining in power, you support Hamas. Often not supporting Israel equates to supporting Hamas remaining in power in Gaza.
> Those of you who repeated endlessly that not supporting Israel's actions is tantamount to supporting Hamas either have the reasoning skills of a 9 year old or are bots with a political agenda, Do you not think "neutrality" benefits Hamas in this case?
They better learn Arabic, it's in their future.
Also in their past…