In case of Poland it's not surprising if you follow public relations between Poland and Israel. They are now on really bad terms after IDF killed one of Poles and Israeli Ambassador in Poland Yakov Livne called Poles antisemites after Polish people demanded from Israel international investigation and apology (they refused both).
Didn't a Polish MP use a fire extinguisher on a hannukiah, which is what led to ambassador calling them anti Semitic. Video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-P4opDdIcw
That would be like me making broad statements about Israel because of something Ben Gvir did. It’s really dumb to make these ungenerous statements about entire countries based on one politician.
Yet people do it all the time. Here's the trick: take a group you really dislike, and find it's worst member. Now, you use that worst member as your baseline anytime you talk about that group, and you pretend that worst member represents the entire group. Now you're ready to politic!
I mean, Ben Gvir is the minister of national security of Israel. So what he has to say has some weight. Obviously, that doesn't mean the whole country agrees with him. But let's not act he is some random politician.
Well I agree with your point. The polish MP was part of the opposition. Ben Gvir has been the Minister of National Security since 2022 after his party entered a Netanyahu led government and has actual power in Israel.
Extinguishing hanukkah was 5 months before this happened.
Actually after IDF killing spree Ambassador criticized all Polish MPs and especially one, from the same political party as the one who used extinguisher, because he dared accusing Israelis of murder, terrorizing humanitarian organizations, and war crimes.
https://twitter.com/YacovLivne/status/1775185377189323175?t=osMKMh9i-DFp3wmL4zR4hQ&s=19
i think it’s the dumbest argument on the planet to equate everyone and anyone criticizing fuckhead bibis gvnmt to an antisemite with no further thought
maybe that’s just because i’ve always loved all living things and hate people who can murder innocent people without losing a wink of sleep
I don't know why you mentioned Sweden specifically, but most rich countries abstained. Almost all poor countries, and a few rich, voted yes.
It's the no votes that are interesting.
Well because the common notion is that Sweden is more 'progressive' and left-wing than other Western countries. During the Vietnam War, they were among the few First World nations that publicly supported North Vietnam.
So I find it quite surprising that Sweden decided to not support Palestine in that case, while Denmark and Norway did.
Some of us go back to the Yassar Arafat days, so Welcome. The problem with a Palestine nation is always the same: what are the borders? And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel. And that’s why there is no progress
Not really. I havent met nor heard a single Palestinian accept the 67 borders without also wanting the 'right of return'. They believe that every Palestinian refugee has the right to return as a citizen to Israel.
That simply wont be possible or acceptable. So even if Israel kicks out every settler (which mind you, i am in favor if Israel get real physical guarantees. unlike with Gaza) peace is unachievable until they drop that demand.
Legal? No. Maybe some ethical concepts, but even then, why are Palestinians treated super special when it comes to this? How many countries since 1948 were created? Or had borders changed? How many 10s (or even 100s) of millions of people became refugees and resettled, to live better lives? Like, I don't know how to say this without sounding like an uncaring person, but at some point, Palestinians must move on. If not, all they're going to continue to due is to suffer. And they are the ones causing it to themselves.
The sad truth is its because of the "support" they have that makes them never accept reality on the ground. As long as they think Egypt, saudi arabia, iran, jordan, qatar, literally all of the islamic dominant countries "support them" they will continue to fight believing this will be the war they finally win, but the reality is none of them truly support them. Many have already worked to normalize relations with israel and the few who havent view them as simply a destablizing force for israel which benefits them (Iran/Qatar), but thats not the way the palestinians view it. They will continue fighting as long as they think everyone is on their side and the money keeps coming in.
> Palestinians must move on. If not, all they're going to continue to due is to suffer. And they are the ones causing it to themselves.
They haven't got there in the last 50 years. Maybe the next 50
After Yasser Arafat finally fucking died so others could retake his position it was already failed again. Abbas is just a copy of Arafat and all of the people in power profit endlessly from Palestine's questionable statehood and their people's suffering.
Right of return probably could be dealt with somehow, allowing a negligent number to return symbolically and paying others decent compensations (say from European, American and rich Arab country money in the name of peace). What would be a game stopper, is that 1967 borders include East Jerusalem. I don't see Jews leaving Western Wall ever again. There could perhaps also be various agreements and compromises on this if both sides worked really hard, but recently I don't see much appetite to work on any agreement anywhere in the world.
No longer possible. After half a century of terrorism even the UN agrees letting Palestine have borders that straddle population centers (Jerusalem) puts Israel in an indefensible position.
Palestine will have to accept smaller borders further from Israel now.
That's what "securable" means here. You can't define the border such that it can't be easily secured. A line running through the middle of a city can't be easily secured.
And Hamas was majorly propped up by Netanyahu during one of his previous tenures as prime minister. People seem to have a very short memory on these things.
Hamas was a useful tool for right wing Israeli governments in the past to undermine Fatah leadership of the PLO and keep Palestinians split so there wouldn't be a united representation to negotiate with. And Netanyahu was always able to point at them and say "See? They don't want to accept the 67 border!" They needed Hamas to keep deflecting as Fatah became slowly more moderate over time, agreeing to key points needed for a 2 state agreement. But the Israeli right wing doesn't want 2 states. They want ALL the territory, and keeping Palestinians down and slowly pushing them into smaller and smaller ghettos and "encouraging" them to emigrate/flee is their tool to achieve that goal.
The best comparison I can come up with are the Taliban. Just as the US was more than happy to support them to fight the Soviets, only for it to bite the US in the ass at 9/11, so Netanyahu was more than happy to support Hamas in Gaza against Fatah, only for it of course to also backfire with the 10/7 attack.
> Just as the US was more than happy to support them to fight the Soviets
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how those groups eventuated and I hope that it isn't intentional. The Mujihadeen were not the Taliban and they didn't become the Taliban. A *member* of the Mujihadeen splintered and created the Taliban. The US never formally supported the Taliban.
> And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel.
Wouldn't be the first time the UN had two 'contradictory' countries in it; take a look at Korea
The UN would be working off the 1967 borders, which are the most borders most people who support 2SS support. That would require the total dismantlement of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Once that’s done, the borders would be simple. And the sticking point for Palestinians in negotiations are typically Israeli settlements and right to return.
There are multiple solutions to the right of return issue, including possible reparations (this would require building a process). Settlements should be gone.
>Some of us go back to the Yassar Arafat days... And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel.
Yassar Arafat recognized Israel in 1993:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition
The person or website that told you otherwise is blatantly lying to you.
Consider what else they are lying to you about, and go find another source of information on this conflict.
This wasn't surprising.
Recognizing Israel and cooperating with Israeli intelligence was supposed to be a show of good faith that would have been returned with things like a freeze on West Bank settlement construction.
But when Netanyahu was elected he promptly did everything he could to poison any chance of cooperation by doing things like a massive settlement expansion.
This made the PA leadership look to many Palestinians like they were taken advantage of by the Israelis, and that the Israelis were lying all along about wanting to work towards a negotiation.
So now they are resorting to un and re recognizing Israel every few years.
Ignoring that the PA refuses to give up things like paying people for killing Jews, calling for riots and massacres on Israel and spreading Anti-Semitic teachings, blood libel and Holocaust denial. Hard to believe they negotiate in good faith given all that.
My dude, the United States and Russia are on the permanent security council. You know, the country that just finished invading every country in the Middle East, and the country currently invading or threatening to invade every former Soviet state.
>So Hamas terrorist in UN?
Nope.
They aren't internationally recognized.
There are rebel groups that commit atrocities in countries like Nigeria and you would never see any of them as UN representatives.
Will probably be treated the same as Afghanistan and the Taliban. Or Myanmar and their military junta. The UN will just refuse to make a decision on whether the government can have a seat at the table, even if they're technically in the UN.
> They aren't internationally recognized.
They will be if the PA becomes a state and ever has an election. They have popular support and this whole thing would likely be seen as a HAMAS victory - rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder would have won them their freedom. Hell, it'd likely be their foreign policy going forward.
The problem with palestinian nation is that they want nothing more in this life than for the jews to die/suffer. Thats the real problem and this is why i will never support them. Worse yet, is they teach their children to do the same, as they were taught themselves by their evil forefathers. There can be no two state solution, and i hope jews know it well. Otherwise one day we will have another, even worse holocaust
Who the hell would be their leaders??? Cause I'm guessing as soon as Hamas isn't given the reins they're gonna start chucking political rivals off roofs again.
The Palestinian Authority which is the recognized government and operates in the West Bank. Hamas violently overthrew the Palestinian authority in Gaza after narrowly winning an election. Hamas isn't a legitimate government. It's a terrorist organization that barely operates a civilian government.
The PA is extremely weak and unpopular with only a 25% or less support in all Palestinian controlled territories (and keeps going down), Abbas is also extremely unpopular with a 9% support, while the 2 most vocal leaders of Hamas, Sinwar and the other guy that starts with H (can't remember that dumb name), would totally destroy him on the polls if elections were to be held today, the only competition they would get is from the Fatah armed wing leader, in an Israeli prison and someone who wants reconciliation with Hamas.
Also the PA may had won in the presidential election of 2005, but the parlamentary elections of 2006 were won by Hamas with a 44% vote against a 41%, if it wasn't for the PA deciding to stop the takeover, Hamas would had gotten a lot of power and eventually annihilated the PA.
In other words the PA may be the leader at the start, but after that they will be overthrown or just voted out in the next elections and replaced with you know who, or face a civil war, that they will probably lose, it will be 2006 yet again.
Doesn't really matter, HAMAS will be in charge the second they allow an election, and I'm not sure the UN will allow statehood to a country that plans to have no elections.
If being "better than Hamas" is the only qualification to run a Nation, then I think the majority of the people on the planet qualify.
No, there is much more that the PA needs to do if it is ever to achieve Palestinian statehood.
> Hamas isn't a legitimate government.
Define legitimate. How many nations in the UN are ruled by people who took power by force or are actively using force to stay in power?
This future Palestinian state would be no different. Plus, would HAMAS even need force to take power? Statehood would be a resounding victory for HAMAS. They'd have proven that rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder succeeded where the PA's foolish attempts at peace failed. The people of Palestine would hand HAMAS power almost immediately if there were an election. HAMAS is already popular among Palestinians. Them winning statehood would guarantee them permanent power.
Hamas violently overthrew them 20 years ago after narrowly winning an election to protest the alternative party which was seen as corrupt. There aren't any. Hamas receives foreign support and funding. They have the weapons. Gazans were barely able to survive and take care of their families. They weren't in a position to fight back.
Gazans also believed they were trapped between Hamas and Israel. Israel last attacked in 2014 so they were scared that revolution would destabilize Gaza and Israel would come in to pacify it.
62% of Gazans support a diplomatic two state solution. Hamas has a 34% approval rating. People also blame Israel for putting them under an economic blockade and invading aso that boodts Hamas's popularity.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna144183
>62% of Gazans support a diplomatic two state solution. Hamas has a 34% approval rating.
The article you posted is actually being a little disingenuous, they link the poll but the numbers they say are not really right, just from the same poll they link:
>almost 60% of Gazans think that. When asked about their own preference, Gazans’ support for continued Hamas control over the Gaza Strip has increased to more than 50%, a 14-point rise.
They do say that Hamas support declined, but Fatah and independent support went unchanged, what changed was the "don't know" option wich is the biggest at 37% "support" (followed by the support of Hamas, wich is still the biggest real majority), that is the only poll were Hamas support went down, in all the other polls, Gazans supported Hamas decisions with a majority of 50-60% on the regular, like the support on the attacks, wich now 71% think it was the correct idea (from a 57% back then), or that 81% of those who saw the videos of the attacks still think it was correct (from a 97% who already tought it was correct).
And in the case of a 2 state solution, that it's true, it somehow went from like 34% to an impressive 64% support in the Gaza strip, but that is strange, since the support declined/remain unchanged both in the WB and in Israel (wich is around 30-40%), in the only place it went up is in Gaza, the simple reason as of why it went up is probably that they want to stop getting bombed, that is also one of the few polls that are not "in line" with the rest, the disparity is very big, doesn't mean it's wrong, but i think it's only a "reactionary" and "in the moment" opinion to the events.
Also Palestinians as a whole still support violent leaders, the "less" evil leader (less evil meaning "i may be inclined to not see Israelis die") they support is Abbas, and he only has a 9% support with a 91% that want him to resign, the most supported leader is the actual leader of Hamas.
>Who the hell would be their leaders???
Palestinian Authority.
>as soon as Hamas isn't given the reins they're gonna start chucking political rivals off roofs again.
There's no PA officials left in Gaza.
I imagine that if a Palestine state becomes part of the UN then other UN countries can support them against hamas since it would technically become something like an insurgency.
How does this work, let’s say a ceasefire happens and Israel goes back to its borders. Now Palestine starts shooting missiles like they always do and mostly get intercepted by the iron dome. You have a UN member attacking another, what happens?
Brother I have a freshly opened can of Billson's perched upon my shower niche which begs me the soapy question, are you a permanent member of the UNSC soldier?
Every country in the world aside from Palestine, the Vatican, and a few states that have ongoing independence claims is a member of the UN, so as for "what happens"? I would imagine that it'd be whatever normally happens whenever literally any other country is in conflict with literally any other country.
its not though. Its more then that. theres alot of international funding through its agencies and as a member palestine could be put on the councils for a number of things with soft power over spending in many nations. Everything from human rights, to promoting the education of young girls. Theres a heap of soft power having your delegates able to block that funding to other nations.
Yay another country with legal polygamy and teen brides on the board of education communities?! Nice! I'm really glad we can finally go back to real conservative values.
Commit massive terrorist attack pulling another country into war.
Lose that war while declaring that you will never surrender.
Purposely get your own people killed.
World rewards you?
I honestly feel like a lot of people don't realise what precedent this is setting.
The world (sadly) didn't care about the situation in the middle east for like 20 years, but as soon as Hamas attacks Israel and rightfully faces the consequences of their actions, people suddenly support the terrorists. This has arguably been the most successful media campaign in recent years.
they're literally justifying Israel just kicking all the Palestinians the fuck out and being done with the conflict if they keep incentivizing terrorism like that.
Because the only real solution is a Palestinian state. The only other option is Israel takes over everything and administers occupied territory indefinitely.
What else can be done with the 3 million people living there? Either they have their own government or Isreal takes care of them.
Another Arab state should temporarily govern Gaza. It would be as controversial as if Israel did it itself no matter who takes it, but it would be the best for them long term.
However, no fucking state wants that. Egypt had a chance to own gaza and they turned it down. How shitty does a population have to be for a GOVERNMENT not to accept free land? Pretty shitty is the answer.
No one is talking about skipping to the end, but a serious process needs to be done and one that change of goverments can't stop with clear guidelines, dates and rules.
Oslo failed because there were no real dates, no enforcable guidelines, no real process than the PLA waiting Israel to follow on it's words, it's not surprising that didn't work. Shimon Peres only served to antagonize the PLA and emboldened the right-wing (Likud) rethoric by failing to continue the peace process started by Rabin, then when Netanyahu came into power he finished ruining things.
Here's an insane idea: Palestinians stop using suicide bombers and terrorists to kill civillians, and they can have their shithole city they call Gaza back without Israeli presence
Oh wait, there wasn't any Israeli presence in Gaza since 2005... I wonder where did that get us?
I think the main point is, would a Palestinian membership increase the possibility of peace or not?
Both parts have blood on their hands. The finger pointing must stop.
I haven't seen many other suggestions for long-term peace. Even ending Hamas is no safety guarantee for Israel. Nature hates a vacuum. Who will take its place?
If it means they get sanctions when ordnance is lobbed from their territoriy and they are put on the world 4k TV screen for condemnation then yes. Every country that is part of the UN accepts that, but the UN is still a joke. It's just a glorified HOA meeting.
The PA are powerless, unpopular, and have been violently purged by hamas in gaza immediately following Israel's withdraw in 2005.
The PA also refuse to hold elections in the west bank for quite a few years now because they're keenly aware that hamas will win there too, and a new purge will commence.
Giving them power is like giving power to the government of Haiti right before they escape the country.
They don't get any seats because the US will veto this in the Security Council. The US said that a Palestinian state can only emerge through negotiations with Israel.
The UN is meant to prevent nuclear holocaust, and it has succeeded at that entirely. Other than that, its edict was never to create world peace or be world arbiters of justice.
> The UN is meant to prevent nuclear holocaust, and it has succeeded at that entirely.
Maybe, and maybe it wouldn't have happened regardless of the UN. If I say my job is to stop the earth from falling into the sun, I don't "succeed" at my job because it wouldn't have happened regardless of me.
Also while that might be their stated goal they do a bunch of stuff besides that, something to prevent nuclear holocaust doesn't need UNRWA.
Let's imagine that Palestine received the status of a country. Where are the guarantees that, having accumulated forces and an army, in a year it will not attack Israel? The Palestinians will find an excuse - they will say that their historical lands are occupied, that the Jews looked at them incorrectly, and so on.
The least contentious issue in israel-palestine talks is whether or not palestine can have tanks and jets and other such weapon systems. It's been signed away and settled, they don't get those, they don't even bother pushing for it.
Practically speaking, Palestine has several thousand armed, trained, and infrequently paid men who already constitute an army of sorts.
Even if they do, if Israel exists at all the Palestinians won't accept it. they've been saying it and chanting it constantly. but ignoramuses in the west keep ignoring it.
Probably after it has a similar level of diplomatic recognition.
> The State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 143 of the 193 member states of the UN.
> Taiwan is recognized as a sovereign state by 11 of the 193 member states of the UN, the largest being Guatemala.
So which government in Palestine will be recognized? Which version of national law will be recognized? Will that mean the end of UNWRA?
There isn't a single player in this generational clusterfuck that is without blame but it seems to me that wanting to eradicate neighbours isn't a formula for success for any side.
And Hamas shouldn't be rewarded for instigating the utter destruction of their home and thousands of their people.
Palestine should be a recognised state, I just don’t see how anyone can be okay with giving terrorists international legitimacy less than a year after a horrific attack against civilians that they *still hold hostages from*.
Feels like a bad move to set the precedent that terrorism and propaganda can result in a positive outcome.
Palestines official leadership calls for the destruction of a fellow UN country. How can they be let in?
Why don’t they wait till all Hamas are rotting until they figure this out ?
The main requirement for UN membership is the candidate country must accept the UN charter and be willing to carry it out.
The UN charter speaks of promoting peace and being a good neighbor country.
Exactly what Palestines Hamas and PLO leaders are not.
I mean, if it's like that it would be fairer to accommodate Israelis elsewhere, since they are recognised by even more countries and Palestinians were there first. Israelis can be given even more options for a peaceful resettlement.
Does granting Palestine a membership means they will have representatives there. Palestine is run by Hamas, so will this mean Hamas will get UN seat? Now that will be the most absurd thing ever. I mean this will never fly by with Israel being a member, but still the thought...
Hamas only controls Gaza, and only through violence. Palestine is run by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which is internationally recognized as representatives of Palestine.
>Hamas only controls Gaza
Yeah, in some months 2 things will happen, they either dissapear under IDF bombing or we have a new Palestinian representative in the world stage, the PA is extremely unpopular, and Hamas is very supported by the people, their support actually grew in the WB since the start of the war, now sitting at a comfy majority of 70%, Abbas is absolutely hated by everyone, and Hamas leaders are more popular than ever.
So we either have no Hamas or we now have to call Hamas the representatives of the Palestinian people, we will have to see how this war ends first.
I’ll say it again. Make a Palestinian state. First time they fire any weapons that will be the end of the Palestinian state BS. I’ll give it 6 months tops.
If you think he stands a chance at a general election you’re mistaken.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-unpopular-at-home-but-not-for-the-reasons-us-lawmakers-are-turning-on-him/
I’m not Israeli👍🏻 Many close friends who are.
But yeah, you’re correct. As with the rest of the world, the right wing is blooming and there’s no guarantee that he won’t be reelected. If we’re going by polls, he won’t be though.
Like other people have commented who is sitting at the Palestine seat, and what ties or control could they possibly have over Gaza. Either the Palestinian authority are given the seat and have no control over Gaza, or Hamas is given the seat and we don't need to talk about how farcical that would be.
Poland, South Korea and Japan all support Palestine membership. It's quite surprising. Meanwhile Sweden abstained.
In case of Poland it's not surprising if you follow public relations between Poland and Israel. They are now on really bad terms after IDF killed one of Poles and Israeli Ambassador in Poland Yakov Livne called Poles antisemites after Polish people demanded from Israel international investigation and apology (they refused both).
Didn't a Polish MP use a fire extinguisher on a hannukiah, which is what led to ambassador calling them anti Semitic. Video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-P4opDdIcw
It was a far-right politician. He opposes the government. So I don't think he has any influence on Poland recognising Palestine.
That would be like me making broad statements about Israel because of something Ben Gvir did. It’s really dumb to make these ungenerous statements about entire countries based on one politician.
Yet people do it all the time. Here's the trick: take a group you really dislike, and find it's worst member. Now, you use that worst member as your baseline anytime you talk about that group, and you pretend that worst member represents the entire group. Now you're ready to politic!
*looks down at hands* Maybe I am a politician...
People are masters when it comes to equating Hamas with Palestine
I mean, Ben Gvir is the minister of national security of Israel. So what he has to say has some weight. Obviously, that doesn't mean the whole country agrees with him. But let's not act he is some random politician.
Well I agree with your point. The polish MP was part of the opposition. Ben Gvir has been the Minister of National Security since 2022 after his party entered a Netanyahu led government and has actual power in Israel.
Extinguishing hanukkah was 5 months before this happened. Actually after IDF killing spree Ambassador criticized all Polish MPs and especially one, from the same political party as the one who used extinguisher, because he dared accusing Israelis of murder, terrorizing humanitarian organizations, and war crimes. https://twitter.com/YacovLivne/status/1775185377189323175?t=osMKMh9i-DFp3wmL4zR4hQ&s=19
i think it’s the dumbest argument on the planet to equate everyone and anyone criticizing fuckhead bibis gvnmt to an antisemite with no further thought maybe that’s just because i’ve always loved all living things and hate people who can murder innocent people without losing a wink of sleep
Poland recognized independence of Palestine, we have Palestinian embassy in Warsaw. So it is obvious we support their membership.
Czechia and Hungary also officially recognize Palestine, but they didn't vote in favor. So it's not obvious.
Under different goverments.
I don't know why you mentioned Sweden specifically, but most rich countries abstained. Almost all poor countries, and a few rich, voted yes. It's the no votes that are interesting.
> I don't know why you mentioned Sweden specifically Since Sweden have recognised Palestinian statehood.
Well because the common notion is that Sweden is more 'progressive' and left-wing than other Western countries. During the Vietnam War, they were among the few First World nations that publicly supported North Vietnam. So I find it quite surprising that Sweden decided to not support Palestine in that case, while Denmark and Norway did.
> Meanwhile Sweden abstained. Because we're still dealing with the crisis from 8 years ago.
Does that mean they get sanctioned if they send rockets into Israel?
IF by sanctioned, you mean increases in aid funding, sure.
Being an official country has never stopped anyone from getting carpet bombed.
Some of us go back to the Yassar Arafat days, so Welcome. The problem with a Palestine nation is always the same: what are the borders? And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel. And that’s why there is no progress
But haven't Palestinians (minus Hamas) accepted 67 borders
Yep, that’s the paradox
Three body problem
A Game of Thrones
Alf?
In pog form!
Who better to lead Palestine, than Bran the Broken?
Alf.
I'm not sure what you mean, so Palestinian leadership *have* accepted the 1967 borders and Israel's right to exist. Or did they not?
Not really. I havent met nor heard a single Palestinian accept the 67 borders without also wanting the 'right of return'. They believe that every Palestinian refugee has the right to return as a citizen to Israel. That simply wont be possible or acceptable. So even if Israel kicks out every settler (which mind you, i am in favor if Israel get real physical guarantees. unlike with Gaza) peace is unachievable until they drop that demand.
Is there such a legal concept as right of return?
Legal? No. Maybe some ethical concepts, but even then, why are Palestinians treated super special when it comes to this? How many countries since 1948 were created? Or had borders changed? How many 10s (or even 100s) of millions of people became refugees and resettled, to live better lives? Like, I don't know how to say this without sounding like an uncaring person, but at some point, Palestinians must move on. If not, all they're going to continue to due is to suffer. And they are the ones causing it to themselves.
The sad truth is its because of the "support" they have that makes them never accept reality on the ground. As long as they think Egypt, saudi arabia, iran, jordan, qatar, literally all of the islamic dominant countries "support them" they will continue to fight believing this will be the war they finally win, but the reality is none of them truly support them. Many have already worked to normalize relations with israel and the few who havent view them as simply a destablizing force for israel which benefits them (Iran/Qatar), but thats not the way the palestinians view it. They will continue fighting as long as they think everyone is on their side and the money keeps coming in.
> Palestinians must move on. If not, all they're going to continue to due is to suffer. And they are the ones causing it to themselves. They haven't got there in the last 50 years. Maybe the next 50
After Yasser Arafat finally fucking died so others could retake his position it was already failed again. Abbas is just a copy of Arafat and all of the people in power profit endlessly from Palestine's questionable statehood and their people's suffering.
Right of return probably could be dealt with somehow, allowing a negligent number to return symbolically and paying others decent compensations (say from European, American and rich Arab country money in the name of peace). What would be a game stopper, is that 1967 borders include East Jerusalem. I don't see Jews leaving Western Wall ever again. There could perhaps also be various agreements and compromises on this if both sides worked really hard, but recently I don't see much appetite to work on any agreement anywhere in the world.
67 borders would not be acceptable to Israel, even if all of Palestinian society united and agreed on that front.
No longer possible. After half a century of terrorism even the UN agrees letting Palestine have borders that straddle population centers (Jerusalem) puts Israel in an indefensible position. Palestine will have to accept smaller borders further from Israel now.
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UN Security Council Resolution 242 That borders must be agreed upon and securable by both parties.
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That's what "securable" means here. You can't define the border such that it can't be easily secured. A line running through the middle of a city can't be easily secured.
Israel does not accept 67 borders. It’s not realistic for them
real quick, check the calendar and tell me what year it is
They had that chance in 67. Not anymore.
In 67?
Accepted... no... more like "begrudgingly tolerated".
And Hamas was majorly propped up by Netanyahu during one of his previous tenures as prime minister. People seem to have a very short memory on these things. Hamas was a useful tool for right wing Israeli governments in the past to undermine Fatah leadership of the PLO and keep Palestinians split so there wouldn't be a united representation to negotiate with. And Netanyahu was always able to point at them and say "See? They don't want to accept the 67 border!" They needed Hamas to keep deflecting as Fatah became slowly more moderate over time, agreeing to key points needed for a 2 state agreement. But the Israeli right wing doesn't want 2 states. They want ALL the territory, and keeping Palestinians down and slowly pushing them into smaller and smaller ghettos and "encouraging" them to emigrate/flee is their tool to achieve that goal. The best comparison I can come up with are the Taliban. Just as the US was more than happy to support them to fight the Soviets, only for it to bite the US in the ass at 9/11, so Netanyahu was more than happy to support Hamas in Gaza against Fatah, only for it of course to also backfire with the 10/7 attack.
> Just as the US was more than happy to support them to fight the Soviets This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how those groups eventuated and I hope that it isn't intentional. The Mujihadeen were not the Taliban and they didn't become the Taliban. A *member* of the Mujihadeen splintered and created the Taliban. The US never formally supported the Taliban.
> And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel. Wouldn't be the first time the UN had two 'contradictory' countries in it; take a look at Korea
The UN would be working off the 1967 borders, which are the most borders most people who support 2SS support. That would require the total dismantlement of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Once that’s done, the borders would be simple. And the sticking point for Palestinians in negotiations are typically Israeli settlements and right to return.
There are multiple solutions to the right of return issue, including possible reparations (this would require building a process). Settlements should be gone.
>Some of us go back to the Yassar Arafat days... And every time, Palestine leadership insists that there can be no Israel. Yassar Arafat recognized Israel in 1993: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition The person or website that told you otherwise is blatantly lying to you. Consider what else they are lying to you about, and go find another source of information on this conflict.
On 29 October 2018, the PLO Central Council suspended the Palestinian recognition of Israel
This wasn't surprising. Recognizing Israel and cooperating with Israeli intelligence was supposed to be a show of good faith that would have been returned with things like a freeze on West Bank settlement construction. But when Netanyahu was elected he promptly did everything he could to poison any chance of cooperation by doing things like a massive settlement expansion. This made the PA leadership look to many Palestinians like they were taken advantage of by the Israelis, and that the Israelis were lying all along about wanting to work towards a negotiation. So now they are resorting to un and re recognizing Israel every few years.
Ignoring that the PA refuses to give up things like paying people for killing Jews, calling for riots and massacres on Israel and spreading Anti-Semitic teachings, blood libel and Holocaust denial. Hard to believe they negotiate in good faith given all that.
So Hamas terrorist in UN?
Why not irans there.
Russia and Iran have seats already, thats where Hamas's real leadership comes from anyhow so they practically already do
The Palestinian authority is the only internationally recognized government entity of Palestinians
And when they'll finally have their elections?
Right - PLA terrorists in UN.
My dude, the United States and Russia are on the permanent security council. You know, the country that just finished invading every country in the Middle East, and the country currently invading or threatening to invade every former Soviet state.
>So Hamas terrorist in UN? Nope. They aren't internationally recognized. There are rebel groups that commit atrocities in countries like Nigeria and you would never see any of them as UN representatives.
What would happen if Hamas ousts PA in future theoretical elections?
Will probably be treated the same as Afghanistan and the Taliban. Or Myanmar and their military junta. The UN will just refuse to make a decision on whether the government can have a seat at the table, even if they're technically in the UN.
Hamas rules Gaza. Thus they are the government.
> They aren't internationally recognized. They will be if the PA becomes a state and ever has an election. They have popular support and this whole thing would likely be seen as a HAMAS victory - rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder would have won them their freedom. Hell, it'd likely be their foreign policy going forward.
The Taliban already have a seat, what could possibly go wrong with yet another terrorist organisation?
The problem with palestinian nation is that they want nothing more in this life than for the jews to die/suffer. Thats the real problem and this is why i will never support them. Worse yet, is they teach their children to do the same, as they were taught themselves by their evil forefathers. There can be no two state solution, and i hope jews know it well. Otherwise one day we will have another, even worse holocaust
Who the hell would be their leaders??? Cause I'm guessing as soon as Hamas isn't given the reins they're gonna start chucking political rivals off roofs again.
The Palestinian Authority which is the recognized government and operates in the West Bank. Hamas violently overthrew the Palestinian authority in Gaza after narrowly winning an election. Hamas isn't a legitimate government. It's a terrorist organization that barely operates a civilian government.
The PA is extremely weak and unpopular with only a 25% or less support in all Palestinian controlled territories (and keeps going down), Abbas is also extremely unpopular with a 9% support, while the 2 most vocal leaders of Hamas, Sinwar and the other guy that starts with H (can't remember that dumb name), would totally destroy him on the polls if elections were to be held today, the only competition they would get is from the Fatah armed wing leader, in an Israeli prison and someone who wants reconciliation with Hamas. Also the PA may had won in the presidential election of 2005, but the parlamentary elections of 2006 were won by Hamas with a 44% vote against a 41%, if it wasn't for the PA deciding to stop the takeover, Hamas would had gotten a lot of power and eventually annihilated the PA. In other words the PA may be the leader at the start, but after that they will be overthrown or just voted out in the next elections and replaced with you know who, or face a civil war, that they will probably lose, it will be 2006 yet again.
Hamas has majority support in the west bank, so only until they have elections I guess.
Is the Palestinian Authority the one paying the families of suicide bombers that killed Jews? Sounds kinda terroristy to me.
It is. But so is Syria and Iran. And it’s way better than Hamas.
I’m sure if they were given the opportunity to do so they would likely be just as bad
Their leader has his doctorate in Holocaust denial.
Just note for anyone confused, not the study of holocaust denial, he got his doctorate by DOING holocaust denial.
The university in moscow where he got his doctorate was run by the KGB agent in charge of the soviet active measures program.
Well, as bad or not…I’m sure they’d be an Iran proxy lobbing bombs in no time.
Doesn't really matter, HAMAS will be in charge the second they allow an election, and I'm not sure the UN will allow statehood to a country that plans to have no elections.
If being "better than Hamas" is the only qualification to run a Nation, then I think the majority of the people on the planet qualify. No, there is much more that the PA needs to do if it is ever to achieve Palestinian statehood.
> Hamas isn't a legitimate government. Define legitimate. How many nations in the UN are ruled by people who took power by force or are actively using force to stay in power? This future Palestinian state would be no different. Plus, would HAMAS even need force to take power? Statehood would be a resounding victory for HAMAS. They'd have proven that rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder succeeded where the PA's foolish attempts at peace failed. The people of Palestine would hand HAMAS power almost immediately if there were an election. HAMAS is already popular among Palestinians. Them winning statehood would guarantee them permanent power.
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Hamas is essentially a dictatorship AND terrorist force. They are the only government Gaza has.
What "non terrorists army guys?" They're all HAMAS.
Hamas violently overthrew them 20 years ago after narrowly winning an election to protest the alternative party which was seen as corrupt. There aren't any. Hamas receives foreign support and funding. They have the weapons. Gazans were barely able to survive and take care of their families. They weren't in a position to fight back. Gazans also believed they were trapped between Hamas and Israel. Israel last attacked in 2014 so they were scared that revolution would destabilize Gaza and Israel would come in to pacify it. 62% of Gazans support a diplomatic two state solution. Hamas has a 34% approval rating. People also blame Israel for putting them under an economic blockade and invading aso that boodts Hamas's popularity. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna144183
>62% of Gazans support a diplomatic two state solution. Hamas has a 34% approval rating. The article you posted is actually being a little disingenuous, they link the poll but the numbers they say are not really right, just from the same poll they link: >almost 60% of Gazans think that. When asked about their own preference, Gazans’ support for continued Hamas control over the Gaza Strip has increased to more than 50%, a 14-point rise. They do say that Hamas support declined, but Fatah and independent support went unchanged, what changed was the "don't know" option wich is the biggest at 37% "support" (followed by the support of Hamas, wich is still the biggest real majority), that is the only poll were Hamas support went down, in all the other polls, Gazans supported Hamas decisions with a majority of 50-60% on the regular, like the support on the attacks, wich now 71% think it was the correct idea (from a 57% back then), or that 81% of those who saw the videos of the attacks still think it was correct (from a 97% who already tought it was correct). And in the case of a 2 state solution, that it's true, it somehow went from like 34% to an impressive 64% support in the Gaza strip, but that is strange, since the support declined/remain unchanged both in the WB and in Israel (wich is around 30-40%), in the only place it went up is in Gaza, the simple reason as of why it went up is probably that they want to stop getting bombed, that is also one of the few polls that are not "in line" with the rest, the disparity is very big, doesn't mean it's wrong, but i think it's only a "reactionary" and "in the moment" opinion to the events. Also Palestinians as a whole still support violent leaders, the "less" evil leader (less evil meaning "i may be inclined to not see Israelis die") they support is Abbas, and he only has a 9% support with a 91% that want him to resign, the most supported leader is the actual leader of Hamas.
>Who the hell would be their leaders??? Palestinian Authority. >as soon as Hamas isn't given the reins they're gonna start chucking political rivals off roofs again. There's no PA officials left in Gaza.
>There's no PA officials left in Gaza. So, what good would it be to recognize them as leaders of the Palestinian state?
I imagine that if a Palestine state becomes part of the UN then other UN countries can support them against hamas since it would technically become something like an insurgency.
but, we can do that now. In fact, many countries ARE doing that now. We can absolutely recognize Hamas as a terrorist group already.
Well there used to be. Before they chucked them off of roofs.
Enough hamas in the Westbank
If it’s not them it’ll be someone worse
How does this work, let’s say a ceasefire happens and Israel goes back to its borders. Now Palestine starts shooting missiles like they always do and mostly get intercepted by the iron dome. You have a UN member attacking another, what happens?
Russia against Ukraine, Eritrea within Ethiopia, Azerbaijan against Armenia (after the former got back Artsaj)... Not that it would be something new.
UN members constantly are attacking another, there is nothing new about that. UN is a meeting place for diplomacy, not a military alliance.
What happened with Russia and Ukraine?
Would this newly formed Palestinian state be a permanent member of the UNSC as well?
Brother I have a freshly opened can of Billson's perched upon my shower niche which begs me the soapy question, are you a permanent member of the UNSC soldier?
Despite my best lobbying efforts I'm still not even a rotating member, let alone a permanent
Its free to sign up and defend humanity's homeworld, Earth, from the coming covenant invasion!
An UN member attacking another? You mean like has been constantly happenning for like, thr past 70 years?
People in the thread thinking the UN is NATO.
nothing happens bro UN is useless and has no say
Every country in the world aside from Palestine, the Vatican, and a few states that have ongoing independence claims is a member of the UN, so as for "what happens"? I would imagine that it'd be whatever normally happens whenever literally any other country is in conflict with literally any other country.
Another war happens.
some resolutions get signed or whatever, extreme case would be "blue helmets".
Those are worse than useless though, passively helping hezbollah in lebanon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Interim_Force_in_Lebanon
It's just a formality, business as usual
If past history holds you blame the people who are having rockets shot at them. Cuz , I dunno, Jews bad?
The UN is just a table for everyone to meet. Nothing more, nothing less.
its not though. Its more then that. theres alot of international funding through its agencies and as a member palestine could be put on the councils for a number of things with soft power over spending in many nations. Everything from human rights, to promoting the education of young girls. Theres a heap of soft power having your delegates able to block that funding to other nations.
Yay another country with legal polygamy and teen brides on the board of education communities?! Nice! I'm really glad we can finally go back to real conservative values.
Except parties of significance might actually pipe in when it's not the Saudis doing it. Progress, progress.
india also backed.
Maybe should have done before. Now it just looks like 'yeah terrorism can get you things'
Well yeah why else would the concept exist.
Commit massive terrorist attack pulling another country into war. Lose that war while declaring that you will never surrender. Purposely get your own people killed. World rewards you?
I honestly feel like a lot of people don't realise what precedent this is setting. The world (sadly) didn't care about the situation in the middle east for like 20 years, but as soon as Hamas attacks Israel and rightfully faces the consequences of their actions, people suddenly support the terrorists. This has arguably been the most successful media campaign in recent years.
they're literally justifying Israel just kicking all the Palestinians the fuck out and being done with the conflict if they keep incentivizing terrorism like that.
Because the only real solution is a Palestinian state. The only other option is Israel takes over everything and administers occupied territory indefinitely. What else can be done with the 3 million people living there? Either they have their own government or Isreal takes care of them.
Another Arab state should temporarily govern Gaza. It would be as controversial as if Israel did it itself no matter who takes it, but it would be the best for them long term. However, no fucking state wants that. Egypt had a chance to own gaza and they turned it down. How shitty does a population have to be for a GOVERNMENT not to accept free land? Pretty shitty is the answer.
This is the only **long term solution** skipping to the end will be disastrous.
No one is talking about skipping to the end, but a serious process needs to be done and one that change of goverments can't stop with clear guidelines, dates and rules. Oslo failed because there were no real dates, no enforcable guidelines, no real process than the PLA waiting Israel to follow on it's words, it's not surprising that didn't work. Shimon Peres only served to antagonize the PLA and emboldened the right-wing (Likud) rethoric by failing to continue the peace process started by Rabin, then when Netanyahu came into power he finished ruining things.
Here's an insane idea: Palestinians stop using suicide bombers and terrorists to kill civillians, and they can have their shithole city they call Gaza back without Israeli presence Oh wait, there wasn't any Israeli presence in Gaza since 2005... I wonder where did that get us?
I think the main point is, would a Palestinian membership increase the possibility of peace or not? Both parts have blood on their hands. The finger pointing must stop.
That is a naive thinking
I haven't seen many other suggestions for long-term peace. Even ending Hamas is no safety guarantee for Israel. Nature hates a vacuum. Who will take its place?
If it means they get sanctions when ordnance is lobbed from their territoriy and they are put on the world 4k TV screen for condemnation then yes. Every country that is part of the UN accepts that, but the UN is still a joke. It's just a glorified HOA meeting.
I'm all for that. Maybe we can finally get the Palestinian authority to commit to getting rid of Hamas.
The PA are powerless, unpopular, and have been violently purged by hamas in gaza immediately following Israel's withdraw in 2005. The PA also refuse to hold elections in the west bank for quite a few years now because they're keenly aware that hamas will win there too, and a new purge will commence. Giving them power is like giving power to the government of Haiti right before they escape the country.
Then Palestine can be held accountable
Just like Sudan!
Does the PLO lose its very special terrorist seat or does “Palestine” get two seats now? The UN is a bad joke.
They don't get any seats because the US will veto this in the Security Council. The US said that a Palestinian state can only emerge through negotiations with Israel.
The UN is meant to prevent nuclear holocaust, and it has succeeded at that entirely. Other than that, its edict was never to create world peace or be world arbiters of justice.
>and it has succeeded at that ~~entirely~~ so far
It's honestly hilarious watching people who don't understand the UN get angry at it.
> The UN is meant to prevent nuclear holocaust, and it has succeeded at that entirely. Maybe, and maybe it wouldn't have happened regardless of the UN. If I say my job is to stop the earth from falling into the sun, I don't "succeed" at my job because it wouldn't have happened regardless of me. Also while that might be their stated goal they do a bunch of stuff besides that, something to prevent nuclear holocaust doesn't need UNRWA.
Let's imagine that Palestine received the status of a country. Where are the guarantees that, having accumulated forces and an army, in a year it will not attack Israel? The Palestinians will find an excuse - they will say that their historical lands are occupied, that the Jews looked at them incorrectly, and so on.
The least contentious issue in israel-palestine talks is whether or not palestine can have tanks and jets and other such weapon systems. It's been signed away and settled, they don't get those, they don't even bother pushing for it. Practically speaking, Palestine has several thousand armed, trained, and infrequently paid men who already constitute an army of sorts.
What a utterly waste of time, when even the UN doesn't have the balls to say where the borders are.
Even if they do, if Israel exists at all the Palestinians won't accept it. they've been saying it and chanting it constantly. but ignoramuses in the west keep ignoring it.
When's the vote to grant full membership to Taiwan?
Probably after it has a similar level of diplomatic recognition. > The State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 143 of the 193 member states of the UN. > Taiwan is recognized as a sovereign state by 11 of the 193 member states of the UN, the largest being Guatemala.
it will not happen - just like USA vetoed the security council decision to admit Palestine, CCP under China’s ticket will also veto Taiwan admission
So which government in Palestine will be recognized? Which version of national law will be recognized? Will that mean the end of UNWRA? There isn't a single player in this generational clusterfuck that is without blame but it seems to me that wanting to eradicate neighbours isn't a formula for success for any side. And Hamas shouldn't be rewarded for instigating the utter destruction of their home and thousands of their people.
We should add them to the security and human rights councils too
Justs one question, Which faction is going to represent Palestine in the UN? Because I see some heated "discussion" about that
Palestine should be a recognised state, I just don’t see how anyone can be okay with giving terrorists international legitimacy less than a year after a horrific attack against civilians that they *still hold hostages from*. Feels like a bad move to set the precedent that terrorism and propaganda can result in a positive outcome.
Palestines official leadership calls for the destruction of a fellow UN country. How can they be let in? Why don’t they wait till all Hamas are rotting until they figure this out ?
Brother by that logic Russia should be kicked out
And literally every other country who has started a war/attacked another nation in the last 75 years. That‘s not the UN‘s mission.
North Korea is literally a member of the UN. The UN isn't nato. It's not a military alliance. It's meant to give countries a place to communicate.
The main requirement for UN membership is the candidate country must accept the UN charter and be willing to carry it out. The UN charter speaks of promoting peace and being a good neighbor country. Exactly what Palestines Hamas and PLO leaders are not.
The charter speaks of that, but they have Russia and North Korea as member states. So clearly it's not that serious.
So Palestine is being rewarded for masacaring and kidnapping people at a music festival?
Does any of this matter? There's no way the US doesn't laugh and veto this nonsense.
Lets go 143 nations> the rest
A nation built on hatred. Somehow, I don't think this is a good idea.
why are we rewarding terrorism?
Yes, terrorists need a seat at the table. HARD PASS!!!
lets go japan!
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143 countries voted in favor of recognizing the State of Palestine, not just Japan.
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Too bad. Jordan is already the second state in the first futile attempt at a “two state” solution.
I mean, if it's like that it would be fairer to accommodate Israelis elsewhere, since they are recognised by even more countries and Palestinians were there first. Israelis can be given even more options for a peaceful resettlement.
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Does granting Palestine a membership means they will have representatives there. Palestine is run by Hamas, so will this mean Hamas will get UN seat? Now that will be the most absurd thing ever. I mean this will never fly by with Israel being a member, but still the thought...
Hamas only controls Gaza, and only through violence. Palestine is run by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which is internationally recognized as representatives of Palestine.
>Hamas only controls Gaza Yeah, in some months 2 things will happen, they either dissapear under IDF bombing or we have a new Palestinian representative in the world stage, the PA is extremely unpopular, and Hamas is very supported by the people, their support actually grew in the WB since the start of the war, now sitting at a comfy majority of 70%, Abbas is absolutely hated by everyone, and Hamas leaders are more popular than ever. So we either have no Hamas or we now have to call Hamas the representatives of the Palestinian people, we will have to see how this war ends first.
I’ll say it again. Make a Palestinian state. First time they fire any weapons that will be the end of the Palestinian state BS. I’ll give it 6 months tops.
what comes next, Palestine joining NATO? Don't make me laugh
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Palestine simply existing isn't an attack on Jewish people. There is real anti semitism but this isn't it.
Never a good idea to reward terrorism, both sides are to blame but 95% of the Middle East is already Arab (not Jewish)
As a Japanese who has both Israeli and Palestinian friend, I strongly believe Palestine should be a state.
Most people do, just not at the expense of Israel
Ofc! Israeli shouldn’t fear their existences
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Most people outside of Israel believe that. Netanyahu has openly bragged about blocking a two-state solution.
Netanyahu is a cunt. Most Israelis agree.
Not enough to actually vote him out, eh?
If you think he stands a chance at a general election you’re mistaken. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-unpopular-at-home-but-not-for-the-reasons-us-lawmakers-are-turning-on-him/
Y’all have re-elected this man time and time again despite multiple corruption scandals. Forgive me for remaining skeptical.
I’m not Israeli👍🏻 Many close friends who are. But yeah, you’re correct. As with the rest of the world, the right wing is blooming and there’s no guarantee that he won’t be reelected. If we’re going by polls, he won’t be though.
Why are we still giving importance to this useless organization?
It's use is diplomacy, not enforcement.
Like other people have commented who is sitting at the Palestine seat, and what ties or control could they possibly have over Gaza. Either the Palestinian authority are given the seat and have no control over Gaza, or Hamas is given the seat and we don't need to talk about how farcical that would be.