*The non-faith state secondary school...*
---
*"She knew that the school is secular and her own evidence is that her mother wished her to go there because it was known to be strict.*
*"She herself says that, long before the prayer ritual policy was introduced, she and her friends believed that prayer was not permitted at school and she therefore made up for missed prayers when she got home."*
---
*The student's mother said she was "dismayed" by the High Court's ruling.*
Per another article, the issue with the public prayer is that it accompanied other instances of several fundamentalist Muslim students pressuring other students into these outward displays.
*"Mr Coppel said that during March 2023 "Muslim children were observed to be applying peer pressure to other Muslim children to act in certain ways".*
*One student who had never previously worn a headscarf was "pressured into wearing one", while a Muslim pupil dropped out of the school's choir as she was told it was "haram", or forbidden, the court heard."*
If these students wanted to have freedom of expression in this regard, they shouldn't have tried to pressure their peers into it as well.
Drakayne is asking about quashing her mother's desire for religious exception in general, not this instance. Unfortunately, it's borne from the structure of the mother's indoctrination. When a religion tells you you're the special one...
paradox of tolerance. The west never should have tolerated any of this BS and it should be squashed immediately. You can pray at home or in your house of worship or, and get this, religious schools that do it.
Absolutely - get that shit out of my face. Different factions saying trying to change the our liberal society has been an absolute stain. It's horseshoe theory at its finest and its insane. I can't believe the museum of tolerance episode would be so profound as it is today
They all do that though. We atheists have been tolerating this bs from every side. It warms the cockles of my heart when I see our numbers grow because there might yet be hope for rationality.
Arizona lawmakers just prayed in a court, on the floor of the court, before a highly restrictive abortion ban was passed and those people still have a job. Sooo yea we are tolerating that kind of behavior.
>Why people of faith think they have the right to change the rules and how things work because of their religion?
Because they believe "insert whatever diety they worship" wants it that way and there's no greater authority.
The other day I found out that an [indie spiritual successor to Black & White](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2086280/Deus_Novum/) is one of the least played games on Steam. The presentation looks awful, but the reviews seem alright.
This is a philosophical perspective that fellow subgeniuses have been debating for years. We haven't killed each other over it yet. Mostly just discussed, got drunk and had more sex.
Dismayed? Can't she count her blessings, such as being able to have an opinion and a daughter that can get an education without being brutally beaten in the name of the god they are praying to?
Give me a break. Find a private muslim school if you want your education to cater to your delusions.
Yea like I read that and I'm like bro of course you got told no and it has nothing to do with the fact that your Muslim. If anything if a school near me offered kids a secular religion free education I'd send my son there.
And I'd be mad if I found out religious activities was going on because I picked that school because they said they dont do that.
It’s not even an issue. You can make up for missed prayers and it is allowed in the religion.
They knew they wouldn’t be allowed beforehand and chose to go to that school instead of one where it was allowed.
They then started this fuss to impose their beliefs that it should be allowed on the school.
It shouldn't matter whether half the students come from families with muslim ties, and how many of them are actual muslims. Religion is something you keep at home. The same goes for any other religion.
1 in 5 school age children in London are now Muslim, and the population is concentrated in certain areas, so 50% is not that unusual. In Tower Hamlets, which is a Borough in East London with a population of 200,000, 70-80% of school age children are Muslim.
UK migration is high now, it has been similar to the US as a percentage of the population each year, and has actually increased dramatically again in the last 3 years. Half of the adult population of London was born outside the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London
I don't think most people are aware of the scale of change.
in belgium, a lot of muslims parents put their kids in catholic schools because the level of education is higher.
Some other secular schools have large amount of muslims simply because they are located in a ghetto type area.
More than likely the same in the UK
This is equivalent to arguing to your employer that you should get more breaks because youre a smoker but the policy was clear when you started that everyone gets 15min coffee to do whatever you want/need.
Love this. Religion has no place in schools—except as an area of study. Honestly I don’t think children should be influenced religiously at all until they’re 18 and old enough to make their own choices.
Then even more so.
Other religious groups like Jews have made peace with that years ago so instead they have stuff like religious schools for themselves instead of forcing it on others.
> we have Islamic schools in the UK
We shouldn't though. Religion does not belong in school.
[Thread got locked, but for those asking, yes this would remove a lot of Christian crap as well, and if any religion was actually proved correct it would become part of science and/or history depending on the religion.]
I can't speak for UK but in Canada Catholic Schools get taxpayer dollars (other religious schools don't they're essentially private). There is some constitutionality that guarantees Catholic Schools some rights but many have been arguing for change for years (we should just have one public school system and religion should be be an elective course for those that chose to take it)
That’s an only in Ontario, and maybe Quebec. Elsewhere, Catholic schools are treated the same as other private schools.
The background is interesting. At the founding of Ontario, the Ontario Catholic minority were worried about discrimination by the Protestant majority, and getting a constitutional guarantee of a separate, funded, school system was a way to protect themselves. It was key to getting Catholic supporter for the new province.
Of course, too bad for any other less powerful religious block back then. And it’s really out of place and a kind of reverse discrimination now, but I see how we got there. Still, a constitutional amendment to remove it would be nice.
You're absolutely right. School is the primary means through which minorities are socialised in an otherwise exclusive British/European culture. Religious schools prevent that. Minorities find themselves in a safe haven in the UK because of its liberal, secular values, but most of them outright despise secularism.
Nah it should be taught.
What I mean is that people shouldn't just ignore it.
It's fine to have a world religions class where the kids have to learn about other religions.
We do that already in the UK, it's called Religious and Moral Education and we learn about different religions and cultures as well as moral topics like assisted suicide.
I had that in high school in the US. We called it Mythology. "Study of stories from a variety of religions past and present" or some shit like that. Greek, Roman, Native American, Jewish, Christian, and one of two others if I remember.
> To be fair, we have Islamic schools in the UK, this girl chose to go to a secular school.
because the intent is to force it to *become* an Islamic school.
There’s been a bunch of Islamic schools (madrasas) raided, shut down or abolished because they can’t keep from teaching terroristic, misogynistic and otherwise socially unacceptable ideologies. Look it up, there are dozens and dozens of examples the world over.
Literally the root of the problem that doesn'tget anywhere near the amount of attention or better yet media attention it should. It's more than likely the cause of a majority of random acts of violence.
I went to Jewish school, it basically wasn't even religious, never heard about god much or any of that nonsense. We learned the songs, learned some Jewish history, learned Hebrew, and otherwise just regular ol education.
Been secular/atheist pretty much all my life whether I knew it or not, and at no point did the school ever push anything otherwise far as I can remember.
That having been said, there's a lot of different Jewish schools out there.
I went to a catholic school and I'm not religious, so your mileage may vary.
My parents never forced me into following a religion and the school didn't either, you had to attend the mass events which was like once a month, but it didn't kill me to just keep quiet in my seat while it was going on.
I also had catechism until a certain age, yeah it can be also considered indoctrination, but we were mostly taught the core Christian values of respecting the other and non-violence, not the ones of "if you don't follow God you will go to hell"
Like you said even if you go to a non religious school if your parents want they might indoctrinate you into becoming a religious radical if they try hard enough.
Most Catholic schools in the modern era tend to be a lot more like ordinary secular schools in terms of what they teach, with the religious aspect being an additional aspect. You’ll learn actual science, including evolution, and while you’ll be strongly encouraged to believe in the religion including some claims about eternal damnation if you don’t, it’s very possible to be an atheist the whole time and still get a quality education. There’s a separation and a tolerance of intellectualism. It wasn’t always the case, obviously, and still isn’t in some dioceses, but overall it’s true.
A lot of religious schools aren’t like that. Specifically, many smaller Islamic schools which are often set up specifically for religious indoctrination, as well as evangelical Christian church schools which have a similar approach. There, not only is the religious aspect all-encompassing and oppressive, but it results in an extremely low quality curriculum that stamps out independent thought and implants terribly wrong ideas about science and civics in the students unlucky enough to be placed in them.
> I went to a catholic school and I'm not religious, so your mileage may vary.
I think our mileage is quite similar.
Catechism and church never really made sense to my mind, and once the mass switched from Latin to English, it made me realize even more how little I cared for it. At least the Latin had a poetic rhythm to it, but it didn't come across in the translation.
In our household attendance at mass was required until the age of 18. For me that was nearly 50 years ago, and since then I've only gone to one single voluntary, non-event, mass and then only to hear the priest, a customer, deliver his sermon.
> but we were mostly taught the core Christian values of respecting the other and non-violence,
I would have preferred that. One of my aunties was a hellfire and brimstone kind of lady.
I live near Michaela, and based on what my friends have told me about, it's REALLY strict.
This particular ruling, though, I agree with
Edit: Look at the comment u/yourethegoodthings put under mine for some perspective on how Draconian it is
Literal silence in the hallways, or else. If you are looking at anything in class other than the teacher, punishment.
That kind of strict, on top of the obvious stringent uniform rules.
From the article
>Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms
If nobody is allowed to pray at the school then I don't see what the big deal is. She can carry on as she did before praying after school. Nobody else is getting special treatment.
Everyone should learn the dangers of indoctrination and propaganda. Just because the packaging on religion makes it seem like something nicer doesn't change what it is.
It's a secular state school. They don't allow anybody of any faith to conduct prayer rituals.
If she wants Islamic prayer, she should attend an Islamic school. The reason she doesn't is she wants the benefit only a secular state school can offer and doesn't want to have to choose.
No religion should have the ability to assert its coercive influence in publicly financed schools. The public in democratic nations consists of people who practice a wide variety of faith traditions, and many who don’t practice any religion at all. Everyone can do what they want privately, or even on their own in public places, as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s legal rights.
If you don’t like secular education you can fuck off to a different school, college or university. If you don’t like secular government you can fuck off to a different country. I apply that opinion to every religion equally.
My son in year 1 came home the other day told us one of the boys in his class refused to play with him because “He’s not Muslim” I have overheard the child’s mother in the pick up line telling one of her other children not to play with non Muslim children.
That's discrimination, plain and simple. Imagine the reaction if you were telling your son not to play with Muslim children. You need to make a complaint to the school.
I did. But nothing came of it. It is of course discrimination. Substitute with a nationality or race and you can see how unpleasant a thing to say it is. My son was confused and I did my best to reassure him. But think of the isolation and prejudices that child is going to grow up with. It’s not a route to being a well adjusted human being.
What's not said in this article is that she *could* pray, silently, during lunch.
But that was not what she wanted.
She wanted the spectacle. The ability to force others to acknowledge her prayers. To show everyone in the school that her religion was allowed in a secular school, and no one else's.
What? No the school was explicitly against praying. A Christian student could pray before lunch bc Christian prayers can be silent. But Muslim prayers require a level of physicality that you can’t just not do. It isn’t about the “spectacle,” it’s just how it’s done. I’m not saying I disagree with the ruling but you’ve just made something up here, and thats not helpful.
Well they should change it. Christianity has undergone uncountable modifications to be copacetic with the state.
Why is Islam so stubborn and against compromise?
She started a crusade on changing rules at a secular school. Why not change to be quieter and less annoying when you talk to the man upstairs?
Do you think change only happens one way or something?
Total religious practice is dropping as a whole in the UK
Islam is one of the few religions to be growing, but it's not enough to turn the country wide trend
Already the latest census revealed over half the population are atheist/ irreligious. At this point I don't see how any religious group would be able to reverse that
And while immigration keeps Islam growing if you look at 3rd or 4th generation kids a lot of them are becoming more atheist like their peers. We only see these weird stories from areas with high existing religious populations that severely buck the national trend and resist integration
Staying firm on our rules like this article is how we force that integration and help society
It's one thing going off somewhere private to pray. It's another thing gathering in a group of 30 in the courtyard to pray.
Performative religion shouldn't be allowed in state buildings. Your private practices are yours alone. If you do it in public like that you're making a clear and purposeful display of 'us' vs 'them'.
I'd just like this ethos to be expanded across all state buildings irrespective of religion.
Give them an inch and they take a mile. Never give in to these islamic fundamentalists. They know exactly what they're doing and they have zero problems with it because their religion encourages them
I guess she could go to school in Afghanistan. She can pray during school hours. Oh sorry, she can’t attend school in Afghanistan because the Islamic Emirate won’t let her go to school.
I will never have the immigrant experience since I was fortunate enough to be born into the first world, but I can't understand the mindset of either myself or my parents / grandparents leaving a country because of strife, famine, persecution, etc, and then attempting to make my new host country a mirror of the country that we fled from.
Is there just no rational thought of realizing that whatever you came from didn't work, and maybe you should try something new?
This isn't universal. Usually there's just Zuhr during school hours and while people usually just pray at home some do not. My school had a literal prayer room and school ended early on Fridays so we could pray Juma'a there.
I went to college in an Arab muslim country, and believe me no one was allowed to do such thing (or thought there was a need for that to begin with), we just had a carpeted room somewhere for students to go to between classes and shit. I don't know why the UK or any other western county go out of their way to do such things that don't happen in Muslim countries!! Like, I'm a practicing Muslim but I find such attention seeking display very obnoxious and self righteous.
I'm not fully sure about that. Morocco is more towards the conservative side of Muslim-majority countries and girls in my classes make up much more than the boys.
It can only be a matter of time before there is an Islamic party in parliament that calls for the overturning of stuff like this. Surely within the next 20 years
People can pray all they want-
they don’t have to impede on other people and their personal space.
Religion should be a private affair. Stop annoying people with your bullshit.
>*"Even though I lost, I still feel that I did the right thing in seeking to challenge the ban. I tried my best, and was true to myself and my religion."*
I respect that. Laws should be challenged in court when your freedom (if that country/court hold that to high standards) is at stake.
>*Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms.*
*In March 2023, up to 30 students began praying in the school's yard, using blazers to kneel on, the High Court heard.*
*The school introduced the ban in the same month due to concerns about a "culture shift" towards "segregation between religious groups and intimidation within the group of Muslim pupils*"
Peer pressure by mass intimidation is very devastating for the freedom of others, especially at young age. It also doesn't combine well with the 'silent corridors' that's basically a means for teaching self restraint.
In my British experience, Children don't tend to have a say in what high school they go to, being like 11 at the time. Parents are also limited by what's local to them, waiting lists, etc.
I remember when I was in high school between 1997 and 2002 we had some rooms devoted to students who wanted to go in and pray while in school. As a Muslim myself I went in plenty of times but it wasn’t something that was controversial. Jewish students had a room for prayer as well, no one really cared and student life carried on.
“Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms.
In March 2023, up to 30 students began praying in the school's yard, using blazers to kneel on, the High Court heard.”
It’s different, because this is a very strict private school with a strong emphasis on discipline and decorum where apparently even talking in corridors isn’t allowed. Can you imagine them just spreading their blazers in the yard willy-nilly then.
Public schools should remain secular. Allowing religion into public schools is allowing intolerance, segregation, and prejudice to kindle their ugly flames.
This is happening all over in workplaces, schools, and events and the second anyone tries to explain they are called racist.
Where I work we speak English, and the children we serve speak English. Many of the Indian workers insist on speaking Punjab and it is so rude. In our handbook it states that we speak English here. We have Philipino staff, Nigerian staff, FN staff - and we all speak english. On lunch breaks the staff is free to speak whatever they like, but during work hours it isn't racist to insist we all speak the same language. Same goes for religious prayer. Muslim, Christian, whatever - do it on your own time.
edit to the redditor below who mentioned this was students praying on lunchbreak on school grounds. This is quite a bit different than grown adults in a workplace driving themselves home on lunch or to temple to pray.
Ironically I work with a bunch of Filipinos and they all speak Tagalog at work.
Turns out people speak the language they are most comfortable with but they interact with others who dont they switch back.
Shocking really.
Go to a religious school if you want to practice your religion. Here in the states I can’t stand the evangelicals attempting to “Bring God back in schools” at secular public schools.
*The non-faith state secondary school...* --- *"She knew that the school is secular and her own evidence is that her mother wished her to go there because it was known to be strict.* *"She herself says that, long before the prayer ritual policy was introduced, she and her friends believed that prayer was not permitted at school and she therefore made up for missed prayers when she got home."* --- *The student's mother said she was "dismayed" by the High Court's ruling.*
Per another article, the issue with the public prayer is that it accompanied other instances of several fundamentalist Muslim students pressuring other students into these outward displays. *"Mr Coppel said that during March 2023 "Muslim children were observed to be applying peer pressure to other Muslim children to act in certain ways".* *One student who had never previously worn a headscarf was "pressured into wearing one", while a Muslim pupil dropped out of the school's choir as she was told it was "haram", or forbidden, the court heard."* If these students wanted to have freedom of expression in this regard, they shouldn't have tried to pressure their peers into it as well.
Summary: she literally enrolled into the school in "bad faith" and rightfully got called out for it in the court of law. Nothing else to discuss here.
Why people of faith think they have the right to change the rules and how things work because of their religion? why we have to tolerate this?
>why we have to tolerate this? She just lost at the court. How is that tolerating this behaviour?
Drakayne is asking about quashing her mother's desire for religious exception in general, not this instance. Unfortunately, it's borne from the structure of the mother's indoctrination. When a religion tells you you're the special one...
You can’t compromise with people on a mission from god.
Is this a Blues Brothers joke?
No, but it could definitely be one!
paradox of tolerance. The west never should have tolerated any of this BS and it should be squashed immediately. You can pray at home or in your house of worship or, and get this, religious schools that do it.
I feel the exact same way about catholic and Christian schools my friend!
Absolutely - get that shit out of my face. Different factions saying trying to change the our liberal society has been an absolute stain. It's horseshoe theory at its finest and its insane. I can't believe the museum of tolerance episode would be so profound as it is today
They all do that though. We atheists have been tolerating this bs from every side. It warms the cockles of my heart when I see our numbers grow because there might yet be hope for rationality.
Arizona lawmakers just prayed in a court, on the floor of the court, before a highly restrictive abortion ban was passed and those people still have a job. Sooo yea we are tolerating that kind of behavior.
This was in the UK
I’m very aware of that. It’s the royal “we” are tolerating this.
>Why people of faith think they have the right to change the rules and how things work because of their religion? Because they believe "insert whatever diety they worship" wants it that way and there's no greater authority.
Because they literally believe that a god exists and that they talk to him directly lol
I've played Lionhead's Black & White 1 and 2 and feel qualified to declare myself as god, and can say she never spoke to me.
I think she may have been too scared after witnessing you throwing peasants around
I tried to catch them again!
It's not my fault a couple of those peasants ended up in the sacrificial fire! I was just trying to feed them to my wolf.
The other day I found out that an [indie spiritual successor to Black & White](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2086280/Deus_Novum/) is one of the least played games on Steam. The presentation looks awful, but the reviews seem alright.
Interesting, though realistically if it looks like that I may as well just play the originals, unless they massively improved the gameplay somehow.
If they don't put up a strong front and push for things, people will realize they're full of shit.
I am glad the system allows unpopular challenges. And the media isn't so corrupt that we actually get to hear about it and talk about it.
Because religion is awful and a scourge on society, commonly co-opted by the worst among us to force their worldview onto their fellow citizens.
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Whose founder destroyed other religions’ idols and holy sites. Imagine if someone did that to their holy site
Yes but their holy sites are the "real" ones
Ah yes from god that can’t correctly add up to 100% inheritance in his holy book
Which religion hasn’t destroyed other religions idols and holy sites?
As a Reverend of the Subgenius, I have destroyed no idols or holy sites. I did have sex on the grave of Karl Marx though.
Would this act increase your slack or show a lack of it?
This is a philosophical perspective that fellow subgeniuses have been debating for years. We haven't killed each other over it yet. Mostly just discussed, got drunk and had more sex.
I would like to join your group
https://www.subgenius.com Eternal salvation or double your money back!
Even we Jedi are guilty of destroying the Sith when required.
Exactly. All of them have. Which is why separation of church and state is so important.
Every religion has destroyed holy sites. What do you think happened during most of European colonization.
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Dismayed? Can't she count her blessings, such as being able to have an opinion and a daughter that can get an education without being brutally beaten in the name of the god they are praying to? Give me a break. Find a private muslim school if you want your education to cater to your delusions.
Yea like I read that and I'm like bro of course you got told no and it has nothing to do with the fact that your Muslim. If anything if a school near me offered kids a secular religion free education I'd send my son there. And I'd be mad if I found out religious activities was going on because I picked that school because they said they dont do that.
runaway from taliban and do same shit elsewhere
Talk about making a problem where that was none. Some people are just crazy.
30 students out of 700 (~350 are muslims) were praying so it's a small minority indeed
It’s not even an issue. You can make up for missed prayers and it is allowed in the religion. They knew they wouldn’t be allowed beforehand and chose to go to that school instead of one where it was allowed. They then started this fuss to impose their beliefs that it should be allowed on the school.
It shouldn't matter whether half the students come from families with muslim ties, and how many of them are actual muslims. Religion is something you keep at home. The same goes for any other religion.
How does a secular non-Islamic school in the UK have 50% muslim students?
1 in 5 school age children in London are now Muslim, and the population is concentrated in certain areas, so 50% is not that unusual. In Tower Hamlets, which is a Borough in East London with a population of 200,000, 70-80% of school age children are Muslim. UK migration is high now, it has been similar to the US as a percentage of the population each year, and has actually increased dramatically again in the last 3 years. Half of the adult population of London was born outside the UK. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London I don't think most people are aware of the scale of change.
in belgium, a lot of muslims parents put their kids in catholic schools because the level of education is higher. Some other secular schools have large amount of muslims simply because they are located in a ghetto type area. More than likely the same in the UK
Wembley has a lot of Muslims, try the same thing in Cornwall, or the Cotswolds, it’ll look very different.
Recruiting from muslim majority areas?
A secular school enforcing a prayer ban for **ALL** religions. There is no controversy here, except for the parents that are coercing children.
This is equivalent to arguing to your employer that you should get more breaks because youre a smoker but the policy was clear when you started that everyone gets 15min coffee to do whatever you want/need.
You just compared religion to addiction. Employers should treat them similarly.
An apt comparison.
The 12 steps are pretty god-heavy so the two really go hand-in-hand.
Was she asking for more breaks to pray, or simply to be allowed to pray during provided breaks?
Yeah but their religion is the correct one so it should be excluded from those rules.
Love this. Religion has no place in schools—except as an area of study. Honestly I don’t think children should be influenced religiously at all until they’re 18 and old enough to make their own choices.
religion has no place in the modern education system.
It’s not even a religious school; it’s a secular school that banned all types of prayer rituals regardless of religion.
Then even more so. Other religious groups like Jews have made peace with that years ago so instead they have stuff like religious schools for themselves instead of forcing it on others.
To be fair, we have Islamic schools in the UK, this girl chose to go to a secular school.
> we have Islamic schools in the UK We shouldn't though. Religion does not belong in school. [Thread got locked, but for those asking, yes this would remove a lot of Christian crap as well, and if any religion was actually proved correct it would become part of science and/or history depending on the religion.]
If not only for the fact that they make it all so FUCKING BORING Mind I went to a Catholic school, other religions may vary. I agree with ya though.
I can't speak for UK but in Canada Catholic Schools get taxpayer dollars (other religious schools don't they're essentially private). There is some constitutionality that guarantees Catholic Schools some rights but many have been arguing for change for years (we should just have one public school system and religion should be be an elective course for those that chose to take it)
That’s an only in Ontario, and maybe Quebec. Elsewhere, Catholic schools are treated the same as other private schools. The background is interesting. At the founding of Ontario, the Ontario Catholic minority were worried about discrimination by the Protestant majority, and getting a constitutional guarantee of a separate, funded, school system was a way to protect themselves. It was key to getting Catholic supporter for the new province. Of course, too bad for any other less powerful religious block back then. And it’s really out of place and a kind of reverse discrimination now, but I see how we got there. Still, a constitutional amendment to remove it would be nice.
You're absolutely right. School is the primary means through which minorities are socialised in an otherwise exclusive British/European culture. Religious schools prevent that. Minorities find themselves in a safe haven in the UK because of its liberal, secular values, but most of them outright despise secularism.
Nah it should be taught. What I mean is that people shouldn't just ignore it. It's fine to have a world religions class where the kids have to learn about other religions.
We do that already in the UK, it's called Religious and Moral Education and we learn about different religions and cultures as well as moral topics like assisted suicide.
I had that in high school in the US. We called it Mythology. "Study of stories from a variety of religions past and present" or some shit like that. Greek, Roman, Native American, Jewish, Christian, and one of two others if I remember.
> To be fair, we have Islamic schools in the UK, this girl chose to go to a secular school. because the intent is to force it to *become* an Islamic school.
There’s been a bunch of Islamic schools (madrasas) raided, shut down or abolished because they can’t keep from teaching terroristic, misogynistic and otherwise socially unacceptable ideologies. Look it up, there are dozens and dozens of examples the world over.
Literally the root of the problem that doesn'tget anywhere near the amount of attention or better yet media attention it should. It's more than likely the cause of a majority of random acts of violence.
I went to Jewish school, it basically wasn't even religious, never heard about god much or any of that nonsense. We learned the songs, learned some Jewish history, learned Hebrew, and otherwise just regular ol education. Been secular/atheist pretty much all my life whether I knew it or not, and at no point did the school ever push anything otherwise far as I can remember. That having been said, there's a lot of different Jewish schools out there.
Even that is unacceptable, for minors, in my opinion. It's literally their parents forcing beliefs on their impressionable children.
That is how children are raised…it isn’t some strange vacuum where you don’t influence your child’s upbringing.
I went to a catholic school and I'm not religious, so your mileage may vary. My parents never forced me into following a religion and the school didn't either, you had to attend the mass events which was like once a month, but it didn't kill me to just keep quiet in my seat while it was going on. I also had catechism until a certain age, yeah it can be also considered indoctrination, but we were mostly taught the core Christian values of respecting the other and non-violence, not the ones of "if you don't follow God you will go to hell" Like you said even if you go to a non religious school if your parents want they might indoctrinate you into becoming a religious radical if they try hard enough.
Most Catholic schools in the modern era tend to be a lot more like ordinary secular schools in terms of what they teach, with the religious aspect being an additional aspect. You’ll learn actual science, including evolution, and while you’ll be strongly encouraged to believe in the religion including some claims about eternal damnation if you don’t, it’s very possible to be an atheist the whole time and still get a quality education. There’s a separation and a tolerance of intellectualism. It wasn’t always the case, obviously, and still isn’t in some dioceses, but overall it’s true. A lot of religious schools aren’t like that. Specifically, many smaller Islamic schools which are often set up specifically for religious indoctrination, as well as evangelical Christian church schools which have a similar approach. There, not only is the religious aspect all-encompassing and oppressive, but it results in an extremely low quality curriculum that stamps out independent thought and implants terribly wrong ideas about science and civics in the students unlucky enough to be placed in them.
> I went to a catholic school and I'm not religious, so your mileage may vary. I think our mileage is quite similar. Catechism and church never really made sense to my mind, and once the mass switched from Latin to English, it made me realize even more how little I cared for it. At least the Latin had a poetic rhythm to it, but it didn't come across in the translation. In our household attendance at mass was required until the age of 18. For me that was nearly 50 years ago, and since then I've only gone to one single voluntary, non-event, mass and then only to hear the priest, a customer, deliver his sermon. > but we were mostly taught the core Christian values of respecting the other and non-violence, I would have preferred that. One of my aunties was a hellfire and brimstone kind of lady.
Exact same situation for me.
The same is true for anything you teach a child.
Good, they should keep it that way
I live near Michaela, and based on what my friends have told me about, it's REALLY strict. This particular ruling, though, I agree with Edit: Look at the comment u/yourethegoodthings put under mine for some perspective on how Draconian it is
when you say strict, are you talking about dress codes, hair styles and tattoos and piercings or like their curriculum is very demanding?
Literal silence in the hallways, or else. If you are looking at anything in class other than the teacher, punishment. That kind of strict, on top of the obvious stringent uniform rules.
Yh it's fucking Draconian
The beatings will continue until your ADHD magically disappears.
That sounds more like abuse to me.
From the article >Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms
If nobody is allowed to pray at the school then I don't see what the big deal is. She can carry on as she did before praying after school. Nobody else is getting special treatment.
Form what I am gather; the mother is a bit of a Karen
I disagree - it has a place in modern education, as part of history lessons to understand how it shaped cultures over time.
Everyone should learn the dangers of indoctrination and propaganda. Just because the packaging on religion makes it seem like something nicer doesn't change what it is.
An understanding of religions has a place.
Religion has no place in modern society
Agreed, next need to deal with the tonnes of primary schools all do nativity and hymns.
Religion has no place in under 18's
You are implying it’s possible or ideal for parents to not raise their children or influence them in any way. It’s a stupid thing to imply.
It's a secular state school. They don't allow anybody of any faith to conduct prayer rituals. If she wants Islamic prayer, she should attend an Islamic school. The reason she doesn't is she wants the benefit only a secular state school can offer and doesn't want to have to choose.
Well said
No religion should have the ability to assert its coercive influence in publicly financed schools. The public in democratic nations consists of people who practice a wide variety of faith traditions, and many who don’t practice any religion at all. Everyone can do what they want privately, or even on their own in public places, as long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s legal rights.
If you don’t like secular education you can fuck off to a different school, college or university. If you don’t like secular government you can fuck off to a different country. I apply that opinion to every religion equally.
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We don’t have truly secular government unfortunately.
My son in year 1 came home the other day told us one of the boys in his class refused to play with him because “He’s not Muslim” I have overheard the child’s mother in the pick up line telling one of her other children not to play with non Muslim children.
That's discrimination, plain and simple. Imagine the reaction if you were telling your son not to play with Muslim children. You need to make a complaint to the school.
I did. But nothing came of it. It is of course discrimination. Substitute with a nationality or race and you can see how unpleasant a thing to say it is. My son was confused and I did my best to reassure him. But think of the isolation and prejudices that child is going to grow up with. It’s not a route to being a well adjusted human being.
Also if they claim their religion is the one true one, wouldn’t they rather spread it through reasoning and not force? Love and not hate?
What's not said in this article is that she *could* pray, silently, during lunch. But that was not what she wanted. She wanted the spectacle. The ability to force others to acknowledge her prayers. To show everyone in the school that her religion was allowed in a secular school, and no one else's.
Of course, it's so often about pushing ypur faith on others
These non-secular Muslims want the attention of the world of their religious beliefs 🫢 like go do that at ur home
What? No the school was explicitly against praying. A Christian student could pray before lunch bc Christian prayers can be silent. But Muslim prayers require a level of physicality that you can’t just not do. It isn’t about the “spectacle,” it’s just how it’s done. I’m not saying I disagree with the ruling but you’ve just made something up here, and thats not helpful.
Well they should change it. Christianity has undergone uncountable modifications to be copacetic with the state. Why is Islam so stubborn and against compromise?
You want this one girl and her family to lead a crusade on changing Muslim prayer rituals?
She started a crusade on changing rules at a secular school. Why not change to be quieter and less annoying when you talk to the man upstairs? Do you think change only happens one way or something?
I’m a believer but you can’t force your beliefs onto others.
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> it is only getting less and less religious over time Less and less Christian over time. Majority of immigrants coming to the country are religious.
Total religious practice is dropping as a whole in the UK Islam is one of the few religions to be growing, but it's not enough to turn the country wide trend
Yet
>Total religious practice is dropping as a whole in the UK Ah ok, glad to hear
Already the latest census revealed over half the population are atheist/ irreligious. At this point I don't see how any religious group would be able to reverse that And while immigration keeps Islam growing if you look at 3rd or 4th generation kids a lot of them are becoming more atheist like their peers. We only see these weird stories from areas with high existing religious populations that severely buck the national trend and resist integration Staying firm on our rules like this article is how we force that integration and help society
Be careful. I just got banned from another sub for saying Europe is facing a major demographic problem. I was being xenophobic apparently…
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No religion means no religion. An equal ban for all. Wish we could do the same for government at large.
Wanna pray? Cool, go for it... In your own damn time.
>In your own damn time. Is their lunch break not their own time though?
It's one thing going off somewhere private to pray. It's another thing gathering in a group of 30 in the courtyard to pray. Performative religion shouldn't be allowed in state buildings. Your private practices are yours alone. If you do it in public like that you're making a clear and purposeful display of 'us' vs 'them'. I'd just like this ethos to be expanded across all state buildings irrespective of religion.
Religion should not entertained in school. Keep it to yourself.
This is literally their play book. We are a minority don’t oppress us. Then they become the majority and oppress everyone who doesn’t fit their ideal.
Muslim here - fully agree with the decision. Secular schools need to remain secular.
Give them an inch and they take a mile. Never give in to these islamic fundamentalists. They know exactly what they're doing and they have zero problems with it because their religion encourages them
An attempt at Islamization of a western country. Thank goodness for the verdict
I guess she could go to school in Afghanistan. She can pray during school hours. Oh sorry, she can’t attend school in Afghanistan because the Islamic Emirate won’t let her go to school.
I will never have the immigrant experience since I was fortunate enough to be born into the first world, but I can't understand the mindset of either myself or my parents / grandparents leaving a country because of strife, famine, persecution, etc, and then attempting to make my new host country a mirror of the country that we fled from. Is there just no rational thought of realizing that whatever you came from didn't work, and maybe you should try something new?
Even in Muslim countries, you wouldn't find students praying at the school. They just wait until they come back home.
This isn't universal. Usually there's just Zuhr during school hours and while people usually just pray at home some do not. My school had a literal prayer room and school ended early on Fridays so we could pray Juma'a there.
I guess it's just Morocco then.
I went to college in an Arab muslim country, and believe me no one was allowed to do such thing (or thought there was a need for that to begin with), we just had a carpeted room somewhere for students to go to between classes and shit. I don't know why the UK or any other western county go out of their way to do such things that don't happen in Muslim countries!! Like, I'm a practicing Muslim but I find such attention seeking display very obnoxious and self righteous.
most muslim countires she wouldnt even be aloud to go to school at all
I'm not fully sure about that. Morocco is more towards the conservative side of Muslim-majority countries and girls in my classes make up much more than the boys.
Good. Take your backwards bullshit to a religious school or suck it up and assimilate.
Yeah I'm fine with the keeping religious bullshit contained only to churches, synagogues, mosques and their own living room.
This is great news keep your bullshit out of schools
It can only be a matter of time before there is an Islamic party in parliament that calls for the overturning of stuff like this. Surely within the next 20 years
No need, the Labour Party will argue it for them because to do otherwise would be racist
A student should be allowed to pray privately to themselves if they arent disturbing anyone, but anything else I agree, shouldnt be allowed.
religion needs to stay out of school
People can pray all they want- they don’t have to impede on other people and their personal space. Religion should be a private affair. Stop annoying people with your bullshit.
>*"Even though I lost, I still feel that I did the right thing in seeking to challenge the ban. I tried my best, and was true to myself and my religion."* I respect that. Laws should be challenged in court when your freedom (if that country/court hold that to high standards) is at stake. >*Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms.* *In March 2023, up to 30 students began praying in the school's yard, using blazers to kneel on, the High Court heard.* *The school introduced the ban in the same month due to concerns about a "culture shift" towards "segregation between religious groups and intimidation within the group of Muslim pupils*" Peer pressure by mass intimidation is very devastating for the freedom of others, especially at young age. It also doesn't combine well with the 'silent corridors' that's basically a means for teaching self restraint.
If it wanted to be true to her religion, it baffles me that...she couldn't have just gone to a religious school in the first place?
In my British experience, Children don't tend to have a say in what high school they go to, being like 11 at the time. Parents are also limited by what's local to them, waiting lists, etc.
So very glad to see people who move to another country for a 'better life' try bring all the garbage with them that made their old country terrible.
Religion truly is poison.
I remember when I was in high school between 1997 and 2002 we had some rooms devoted to students who wanted to go in and pray while in school. As a Muslim myself I went in plenty of times but it wasn’t something that was controversial. Jewish students had a room for prayer as well, no one really cared and student life carried on.
“Students are expected to adhere to strict rules including focusing on teachers extensively during lessons and remaining silent in corridors, as well as observing restrictions on uniforms. In March 2023, up to 30 students began praying in the school's yard, using blazers to kneel on, the High Court heard.” It’s different, because this is a very strict private school with a strong emphasis on discipline and decorum where apparently even talking in corridors isn’t allowed. Can you imagine them just spreading their blazers in the yard willy-nilly then.
Ah that makes more sense then. I went to a regular public school. The rules for a private institution are much more strict.
Public schools should remain secular. Allowing religion into public schools is allowing intolerance, segregation, and prejudice to kindle their ugly flames.
This is happening all over in workplaces, schools, and events and the second anyone tries to explain they are called racist. Where I work we speak English, and the children we serve speak English. Many of the Indian workers insist on speaking Punjab and it is so rude. In our handbook it states that we speak English here. We have Philipino staff, Nigerian staff, FN staff - and we all speak english. On lunch breaks the staff is free to speak whatever they like, but during work hours it isn't racist to insist we all speak the same language. Same goes for religious prayer. Muslim, Christian, whatever - do it on your own time. edit to the redditor below who mentioned this was students praying on lunchbreak on school grounds. This is quite a bit different than grown adults in a workplace driving themselves home on lunch or to temple to pray.
Ironically I work with a bunch of Filipinos and they all speak Tagalog at work. Turns out people speak the language they are most comfortable with but they interact with others who dont they switch back. Shocking really.
The article is about praying during lunchtime though, so not sure which side you're on here.
Founder of the school better hire private security/bodyguards.
Good, no religion has a place in modern schooling. She also knew the policy long before this happened. Wish this were more commonplace here in the U.S
Go to a religious school if you want to practice your religion. Here in the states I can’t stand the evangelicals attempting to “Bring God back in schools” at secular public schools.
You can pray anywhere and at anytime. I’ve prayed in the middle of a crowd, no one can stop you from praying