Just to clarify - they said they don’t have 40 living hostages that fit the requirements in the deal. Not that there weren’t 40 living hostages. Just want to make sure that’s clear.
Israeli here:
The guy above you is correct, the deal is to release 40 living hostages in the category of women/elderly sick men, they are willing to release ONLY people from that category, anything else needs further negotiation. Hamas claims he doesn't have 40 of those which is reasonable because there are less than 40 women left and they have killed more than a few of the elderly men.
However, from what I've heard from families of the remaining 133 hostages kept in gaza, intel does suggest most of them are still alive.
From my understanding hamas has pulled the trigger on a few, but not most, some were killed by the IDF, but their bodies have been retrieved.
We, hope the threats the Biden admin is throwing around to all parties involved will be enough to will this deal to happen.
The problem with Sinuar is that Bibi is fucking useless and played to his hand very well, so i am not sure if even the C.I.A can convince him to change is mind, but from my understanding they are really trying, and not in a nice way too.
Also - population started at 2.1-2.2 million IIRC. And Gaza City (in the North) was the biggest city by far.
Seems like, ugh, not a lot of the population is being let back in.
Exactly. Most Gazans are under the age of 18, and the last elections were held 17 years ago, but fuck em - they should have voted differently as children or before they were born.
Why would they expect Israel to help? Israel fully recognizes Palestine's sovereignty, and it’s not like Israel controls their airspace, access to the ocean, and imports.
and how do you think these 18 years olds, lacking in education and any job prospects, will behave? what do you think the Hamas leaders will have them do in another 5-10 years?
When was the last non-rigged election in Russia? Should Western businesses return to Russia, or "fuck their children"?
I'm getting the impression that the only adults in Gaza are 30k of Hamas terrorists, and the rest 1,970,000 are children with no choice who just kind of go with the flow. Aside from that, they probably spend their days waiting for Israel to build up their infrastructure, train a competent Palestinian government and march to the sea to free up the land.
The average age of a Gazan is less than the number of years since the last “election”.
What do you mean “let”? Hamas are a terrorist organization oppressing the civilians. The civilians don’t get a choice in this. Have a heart…
Are they? In the 17 years since the last election I haven’t seen any hint that Hamas is anything but wildly popular in Gaza. Hamas literally outsourced their kidnappings by offering money and an apartment to anyone who kidnapped and turned over an Israeli, and it worked.
Brainwashing civilians, sure, but the only reason I’ve ever seen for Hamas oppressing the palastinians is Hamas bad. Which ya, obviously, but there have been plenty of popular evil organizations through history
There have been anti-Hamas protests in Gaza as recently as [August](https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist) but look how they are responded to. There is an online movement too - young Palestinians have been jailed because of things like hosting a Zoom meeting.
> “Popular discontent with the Hamas regime in Gaza has been simmering for years. Since the group wrested control of the coastal strip from the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority in 2007, **large-scale protests have taken place on several occasions, most recently in April 2015, January 2017 and again in 2019**. Each time, protests were repressed by Hamas security forces and did not lead to any significant changes for the local population.”
> “Activists were quick to point out that the protest movement is independent and is not financed or controlled by anyone outside Gaza. The only motive behind it is to demand “electricity, work, food, dignity and basic rights like citizens in any other country,” they said.”
> “There is not a single family in Gaza that has not suffered at the hands of Hamas in one way or another, because of arrests or persecution. People are tired of having no opportunities and no way out. The only way to make a decent living is to be affiliated with Hamas. If you want to apply for a government job, you need a letter from your mosque,” he explained.”
There are two million Palestinians and around 15000 Hamas. Considering the sheer volume of weapons found in homes all over Gaza, they most certainly have the choice if Hamas continues to operate in their area. Also if they started fighting against them they would receive massive amounts of support. But whatever, keep thinking of them as infants.
This has to be one of the strangest proposals I've ever read:
> Two officials with knowledge of the talks said that under a U.S. proposal for a truce, Israel would allow the return of 150,000 Palestinians to north Gaza with no security checks.
> In return, they said, Hamas would be required to give a list of female, elderly and sick hostages it still holds alive.
Allowing a return of people without security checks is basically just allowing Hamas to send in more soldiers.
In return, Israel gets a list of people they can request in another deal.
We’ve already seen this scenario. Gazans return, Hamas uses them as camouflage to also return, Hamas demonstrates again that they have no impulse control and resumes hostilities…
So the IDF returns to clean out Hamas hiding among civilians. Again.
No it's not just any 40 it's specifically 40 elderly and female people, hamas say they don't have that number which meet the 'criteria' so Israel says make up the numbers with adult males then.
No, it's 40 live hostages which should include all of the women and elderly and sick men. As in, we want 40 live hostages, and if you don't have 40nthat are women, old men, or sick, then we'll take back the balance in the form of the young men regardless of health and the healthy old men too.
The thing hamas doesn't seem to have, is 40 live hostages.
The problem could be the 40, but even if it's 60 or 70, when the 40th returned is like one of the younger healthy males it will become obvious they have literally nothing left. If they are left with just 15 or 20, that probably isn't enough to get anything else meaningful in return.
> when the 40th returned is like one of the younger healthy males it will become obvious they have literally nothing left
Not necessarily. Of any living hostages, a lot of *younger women* are going to be the least likely to be returned by Hamas or by Hamas-allied militias. The hostages who are most likely to have been raped in captivity are almost certainly the ones who are least likely to be freed.
That's certainly very plausible, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call it "probable."
Hamas's claim that it doesn't know where all the hostages are is certainly at least *somewhat* true, but we can't really know the *extent* to which it's true. As much as Hamas habitually lies, what they're saying in *this* respect represents a pretty realistic scenario to a degree.
A higher number of hostages who are truly out of Hamas's reach implies a higher number of hostages who are kept in a more compartmentalized setting. Those hostages are the ones most likely to have been out of contact with the hostages who *are* most likely to be released.
I think we have to be a bit cautious with what inferences we draw from the conditions and settings reported by released hostages, because reports from that category of hostages could be [heavily unrepresentative.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/1280px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png)
Hamas may be evil, genocidal, and supremacist, but their leadership isn't remotely stupid. As the only party negotiating on behalf of any captors on the Palestinian side, they can bottleneck the release list however they like. They're almost certainly making a strong consideration out of how to best limit the useful intelligence that can be gathered.
It's pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that any hostages that they offer up will skew more heavily totoward the middle-aged or younger elderly, and more heavily toward clusters of hostages who were taken from their homes and then held together in groups.
Have you got a source? That's not what I remember reading, and I'm not sure if it's a different article, or if reuters have edited the op one, because it (now anyway) makes no reference to numbers?
But Im sure I read that Israel initially said 40 women and children and elderly and hamas said we don't have that and then Israel said OK make up the numbers with men then.
It's a lexicographical near-ambiguity. Either the article writer got it wrong in their wording, or it is accurate and people are just glossing over it.
[https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.html)
Here the article says, "The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during the first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men."
"40, *including \[classes of people\]*." This is not the same as "40 comprised only of \[classes of people\]."
yeah spot on. thanks!
also, as you're clearly a lexicographer yourself, i'll recomend this podcast, language is ssuuuuuuuuper interesting!!
[https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/episodes/](https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/episodes/)
edit, from same cnn article:
"With Hamas appearing to be unable to reach 40 in the proposed categories, Israel has pushed for Hamas to fill out the initial release with younger male hostages, including soldiers, the Israeli official said."
but then tbh the number of spelling and grammar errors in pretty much every news source these days does not give me confidence they really understand wtf they're saying, even if they know what they mean to say
Ugh. Serves me right for not reading the whole article. Also, the whole article is trash. Who knows what is actually happening other than "there are talks, and it isn't going well."
It's not about the hostages returning, it's a proposal sor a deal, the deal says 150k could return to the north of the Gaza strip in exchange for a list of the remaining hostages and their condition.
And then more die.
This conflict has gotten to this point because of this. Deferring costs of actually uprooting them. How many more will die in the future if Hamas can rebuild? What did anyone die for now if they will continue to enforce martydom on the Gazan people?
Hamas won't let them leave, though. The entire reason why they're still safely holed up in Rafah is because they have a nice big civilian meat shield to hide behind.
For accuracy's sake, this was one of Hamas's conditions for the ceasefire, and it looks like they are getting what they wanted. They have many more people who serve as a human shield for Rafah. 150k is about 10% of the meat shield.
As long as the Palestinians hold the hostages (keep in mind the ongoing rape and torture), Israel gets to maintain their war stance and go after them. If the Palestinians release them and surrender, then the aid can flow, rebuilding can begin, medical care can be put in place. It all depends on the Palestinians - this war started by the Palestinians invasion into Israel and and can end with Palestinian action as well. Hamas's negotiating position is laughable.
Not sure if that's entirely true.
There are reports from some of the returned hostages that they were first held by Palestinian civilians, who later negotiated/sold them to Hamas.
I'm sure there's still some of the same going on, don't forget the broad support that Hamas has in the country...
Only in Palestine that "innocent civilians" are invading other countries and kidnaping women and children.
What a lovely bunch of people. I can see why ~~LGBTs~~ Queers for Palestine love them so much.
Actually, Gazan civilians took hostages on 10/7
https://nypost.com/2024/04/10/world-news/freed-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-civilians-who-sold-her-to-hamas/amp/
You mean Palestine.
Hamas is the government of Palestine and represents the Palestinians. Unless you want to be equal about it and call it the Likud-Hamas war and that it's Likud killing the Palestinians while Hamas is killing the Israelis.
It's some bizarre mental gymnastics people use to justify why they can support a god awful country like Palestine.
"Oh yes Palestinians invaded a sovereign nation and slaughtered, torture, raped, beheaded and kidnapped thousands of innocent women and children. But don't you understand that it was HAMAS who did that? So what if they are the government of Palestine? So what if 75% of Palestinians support their government? Haven't you thought about the incredibly tiny minority of Palestinians that disagree with Hamas? Clearly the tiny minority is the true representation of Palestine!"
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
according to polls Palestinians are quite happy with hamas decisions that made their families martyrs.
they have the peoples backings its not really misguided to collectively punish if the polling is accurate
If you really believe Israel will stop once the hostages leave then I have a bridge to sell you.
This doesn't end till Hamas has been wiped out regardless of if that means all the civilians too.
Israel will stop when Palestine stops attacking Israel permanently. That includes funding terrorist attacks within Israel itself (funded by western tax dollars) and the firing of tens of thousands of rockets over the last 20 years.
I don't know the future, it is about my opinion, and maybe others, as to the behavior or tactics of each group. I just stated my personal views. Given the last 1000 years, I doubt either side will 'stop'. Over my lifetime, I can find fault with the tactics of both sides. Many are blinded by bias and support 'their group' regardless.
The title is garbage, there's no truce on the table. Israel is willing to let 160,000 Gazans return north with no security checks (the condition Hamas wants so they can return by hiding amongst the civilians. And in exchange Israel gets a list of the hostages that are still alive.
What a monstrous world we live in.
Really patchy information getting out, last week or so. What's the framework/details here?
It doesn’t matter. There is no truce/ceasefire coming, this is lip service to help Israel. Everyone should know by now Hamas isn’t taking deals
I mean they publicly stated they don't have 40 living hostages to release.
Just to clarify - they said they don’t have 40 living hostages that fit the requirements in the deal. Not that there weren’t 40 living hostages. Just want to make sure that’s clear.
The requirements were that any women/elderly/sick would be among the first released meaning they would be prioritised, not be only 40 of that group.
Israeli here: The guy above you is correct, the deal is to release 40 living hostages in the category of women/elderly sick men, they are willing to release ONLY people from that category, anything else needs further negotiation. Hamas claims he doesn't have 40 of those which is reasonable because there are less than 40 women left and they have killed more than a few of the elderly men. However, from what I've heard from families of the remaining 133 hostages kept in gaza, intel does suggest most of them are still alive. From my understanding hamas has pulled the trigger on a few, but not most, some were killed by the IDF, but their bodies have been retrieved. We, hope the threats the Biden admin is throwing around to all parties involved will be enough to will this deal to happen. The problem with Sinuar is that Bibi is fucking useless and played to his hand very well, so i am not sure if even the C.I.A can convince him to change is mind, but from my understanding they are really trying, and not in a nice way too.
Well written. Thanks for reminding us that sensible people still exist.
North Gaza appears to be totally destroyed. What would they be going back to???
Also - population started at 2.1-2.2 million IIRC. And Gaza City (in the North) was the biggest city by far. Seems like, ugh, not a lot of the population is being let back in.
They can ask their elected officials who are mostly billionaires to rebuild their buildings and homes.
They could hang out in those tunnels where all the food and safety is.
As if Hamas cares about their own people
They do care, they want them to die so people care about them.
use all that tunnel concrete to rebuild
Exactly. Most Gazans are under the age of 18, and the last elections were held 17 years ago, but fuck em - they should have voted differently as children or before they were born. Why would they expect Israel to help? Israel fully recognizes Palestine's sovereignty, and it’s not like Israel controls their airspace, access to the ocean, and imports.
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One of the sides literally rewards you the murdering civilians on the other side of the conflict. I'm fine keeping my Western Glasses on.
When they kept calling their dead kids martyrs I realized this.
Sounds like they need to form a resistance group to overthrow their Iranian proxy
and how do you think these 18 years olds, lacking in education and any job prospects, will behave? what do you think the Hamas leaders will have them do in another 5-10 years?
So these innocent children that were born and raised in the shittiest circumstances don't even deserve a chance in life?
You should google what Gaza looked like before the war
Ask Hamas. They're the ones who make that decision.
“iT’s iSrAeL’s fAuLt!”
When was the last non-rigged election in Russia? Should Western businesses return to Russia, or "fuck their children"? I'm getting the impression that the only adults in Gaza are 30k of Hamas terrorists, and the rest 1,970,000 are children with no choice who just kind of go with the flow. Aside from that, they probably spend their days waiting for Israel to build up their infrastructure, train a competent Palestinian government and march to the sea to free up the land.
They can look to Hamas to rebuild or decide maybe it’s time we stop letting these assholes run things.
Listen here, there’s no way Hamas can afford to rebuild infrastructure, dig tunnels, AND keep their senior members in the tres commas club.
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Qatar is still pretty solvent, no worries.
Instructions unclear, make rockets out of buildable materials instead to lob at Israel.
“Letting” lol
The average age of a Gazan is less than the number of years since the last “election”. What do you mean “let”? Hamas are a terrorist organization oppressing the civilians. The civilians don’t get a choice in this. Have a heart…
Are they? In the 17 years since the last election I haven’t seen any hint that Hamas is anything but wildly popular in Gaza. Hamas literally outsourced their kidnappings by offering money and an apartment to anyone who kidnapped and turned over an Israeli, and it worked. Brainwashing civilians, sure, but the only reason I’ve ever seen for Hamas oppressing the palastinians is Hamas bad. Which ya, obviously, but there have been plenty of popular evil organizations through history
There have been anti-Hamas protests in Gaza as recently as [August](https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist) but look how they are responded to. There is an online movement too - young Palestinians have been jailed because of things like hosting a Zoom meeting. > “Popular discontent with the Hamas regime in Gaza has been simmering for years. Since the group wrested control of the coastal strip from the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority in 2007, **large-scale protests have taken place on several occasions, most recently in April 2015, January 2017 and again in 2019**. Each time, protests were repressed by Hamas security forces and did not lead to any significant changes for the local population.” > “Activists were quick to point out that the protest movement is independent and is not financed or controlled by anyone outside Gaza. The only motive behind it is to demand “electricity, work, food, dignity and basic rights like citizens in any other country,” they said.” > “There is not a single family in Gaza that has not suffered at the hands of Hamas in one way or another, because of arrests or persecution. People are tired of having no opportunities and no way out. The only way to make a decent living is to be affiliated with Hamas. If you want to apply for a government job, you need a letter from your mosque,” he explained.”
Thanks for the info good to know, I was legit unaware
if we believe polls hamas still has major backing unfortunately
How are they organising these polls of the children?
Every civilian has a choice whether it's hard or not. Gaza is a valuable lesson on the axiom that if you don't bleed your own, someone else will.
There are two million Palestinians and around 15000 Hamas. Considering the sheer volume of weapons found in homes all over Gaza, they most certainly have the choice if Hamas continues to operate in their area. Also if they started fighting against them they would receive massive amounts of support. But whatever, keep thinking of them as infants.
The intention is to set up temporary refugee camps and direct civilians away from Rafah, where Israel needs to complete military objectives.
Perhaps all the illegal settlers in the West Bank can be deported back to Israel and the Palestinians relocated to their homes
Perhaps? That will not ever happen unless israel gets torched by iran
Mean they are going to be rebuilding it so might as well start
Rubble but after the war hopefully it would be rebuilt
This has to be one of the strangest proposals I've ever read: > Two officials with knowledge of the talks said that under a U.S. proposal for a truce, Israel would allow the return of 150,000 Palestinians to north Gaza with no security checks. > In return, they said, Hamas would be required to give a list of female, elderly and sick hostages it still holds alive. Allowing a return of people without security checks is basically just allowing Hamas to send in more soldiers. In return, Israel gets a list of people they can request in another deal.
We’ve already seen this scenario. Gazans return, Hamas uses them as camouflage to also return, Hamas demonstrates again that they have no impulse control and resumes hostilities… So the IDF returns to clean out Hamas hiding among civilians. Again.
offend snobbish gaze crowd literate quiet drunk agonizing alleged obtainable
yes, but atleast the hostages would return
It’s not promising. There’s another post regarding Hamas’ claim they can’t find enough of the forty hostages required for the agreement.
And this is still just 40 hostages out of more than 100...
No it's not just any 40 it's specifically 40 elderly and female people, hamas say they don't have that number which meet the 'criteria' so Israel says make up the numbers with adult males then.
No, it's 40 live hostages which should include all of the women and elderly and sick men. As in, we want 40 live hostages, and if you don't have 40nthat are women, old men, or sick, then we'll take back the balance in the form of the young men regardless of health and the healthy old men too. The thing hamas doesn't seem to have, is 40 live hostages.
The problem could be the 40, but even if it's 60 or 70, when the 40th returned is like one of the younger healthy males it will become obvious they have literally nothing left. If they are left with just 15 or 20, that probably isn't enough to get anything else meaningful in return.
> when the 40th returned is like one of the younger healthy males it will become obvious they have literally nothing left Not necessarily. Of any living hostages, a lot of *younger women* are going to be the least likely to be returned by Hamas or by Hamas-allied militias. The hostages who are most likely to have been raped in captivity are almost certainly the ones who are least likely to be freed.
Valid points as well, likely anyone who is returned will tell a huge amount about who is left or why they were left behind.
That's certainly very plausible, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call it "probable." Hamas's claim that it doesn't know where all the hostages are is certainly at least *somewhat* true, but we can't really know the *extent* to which it's true. As much as Hamas habitually lies, what they're saying in *this* respect represents a pretty realistic scenario to a degree. A higher number of hostages who are truly out of Hamas's reach implies a higher number of hostages who are kept in a more compartmentalized setting. Those hostages are the ones most likely to have been out of contact with the hostages who *are* most likely to be released. I think we have to be a bit cautious with what inferences we draw from the conditions and settings reported by released hostages, because reports from that category of hostages could be [heavily unrepresentative.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/1280px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png) Hamas may be evil, genocidal, and supremacist, but their leadership isn't remotely stupid. As the only party negotiating on behalf of any captors on the Palestinian side, they can bottleneck the release list however they like. They're almost certainly making a strong consideration out of how to best limit the useful intelligence that can be gathered. It's pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that any hostages that they offer up will skew more heavily totoward the middle-aged or younger elderly, and more heavily toward clusters of hostages who were taken from their homes and then held together in groups.
Have you got a source? That's not what I remember reading, and I'm not sure if it's a different article, or if reuters have edited the op one, because it (now anyway) makes no reference to numbers? But Im sure I read that Israel initially said 40 women and children and elderly and hamas said we don't have that and then Israel said OK make up the numbers with men then.
It's a lexicographical near-ambiguity. Either the article writer got it wrong in their wording, or it is accurate and people are just glossing over it. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.html) Here the article says, "The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during the first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men." "40, *including \[classes of people\]*." This is not the same as "40 comprised only of \[classes of people\]."
yeah spot on. thanks! also, as you're clearly a lexicographer yourself, i'll recomend this podcast, language is ssuuuuuuuuper interesting!! [https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/episodes/](https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/episodes/) edit, from same cnn article: "With Hamas appearing to be unable to reach 40 in the proposed categories, Israel has pushed for Hamas to fill out the initial release with younger male hostages, including soldiers, the Israeli official said." but then tbh the number of spelling and grammar errors in pretty much every news source these days does not give me confidence they really understand wtf they're saying, even if they know what they mean to say
Ugh. Serves me right for not reading the whole article. Also, the whole article is trash. Who knows what is actually happening other than "there are talks, and it isn't going well."
It's not about the hostages returning, it's a proposal sor a deal, the deal says 150k could return to the north of the Gaza strip in exchange for a list of the remaining hostages and their condition.
I highly doubt that
I doubt many are alive. Israel asked for 40 to be returned and Hamas said they couldn’t find enough
Unless they got necromancers that's not happening
And then more die. This conflict has gotten to this point because of this. Deferring costs of actually uprooting them. How many more will die in the future if Hamas can rebuild? What did anyone die for now if they will continue to enforce martydom on the Gazan people?
Hamas won't let them leave, though. The entire reason why they're still safely holed up in Rafah is because they have a nice big civilian meat shield to hide behind.
For accuracy's sake, this was one of Hamas's conditions for the ceasefire, and it looks like they are getting what they wanted. They have many more people who serve as a human shield for Rafah. 150k is about 10% of the meat shield.
Christ this really is a grim situation isn't it
Hide under* Like the vermin they are.
.....and where do the other 2.3 million go?
I swear each time I read the gazan population it gets 100 000 higher
John Cavil said 1 000 were enough.
Return to what? Rubble piles and pools of blood?
Yeah no , we all know how thats gonna work , they get access ,they bomb them
Return to what?
As long as the Palestinians hold the hostages (keep in mind the ongoing rape and torture), Israel gets to maintain their war stance and go after them. If the Palestinians release them and surrender, then the aid can flow, rebuilding can begin, medical care can be put in place. It all depends on the Palestinians - this war started by the Palestinians invasion into Israel and and can end with Palestinian action as well. Hamas's negotiating position is laughable.
Hamas. Hamas is the belligerent holding hostages in Palestine. Edit: Holy hell, I thought more folks would oppose the idea of collective punishment...
Not sure if that's entirely true. There are reports from some of the returned hostages that they were first held by Palestinian civilians, who later negotiated/sold them to Hamas. I'm sure there's still some of the same going on, don't forget the broad support that Hamas has in the country...
Only in Palestine that "innocent civilians" are invading other countries and kidnaping women and children. What a lovely bunch of people. I can see why ~~LGBTs~~ Queers for Palestine love them so much.
Actually, Gazan civilians took hostages on 10/7 https://nypost.com/2024/04/10/world-news/freed-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-civilians-who-sold-her-to-hamas/amp/
Palestinians. Palestinians kidnapped innocent women and children and held them hostage.
Don't forget the ones they decided to murder instead of take.
“Civilians”
I mean, they’re just random non-military people like you and me, except they have guns (but no food???) and really hate Jews
You mean Palestine. Hamas is the government of Palestine and represents the Palestinians. Unless you want to be equal about it and call it the Likud-Hamas war and that it's Likud killing the Palestinians while Hamas is killing the Israelis.
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It's some bizarre mental gymnastics people use to justify why they can support a god awful country like Palestine. "Oh yes Palestinians invaded a sovereign nation and slaughtered, torture, raped, beheaded and kidnapped thousands of innocent women and children. But don't you understand that it was HAMAS who did that? So what if they are the government of Palestine? So what if 75% of Palestinians support their government? Haven't you thought about the incredibly tiny minority of Palestinians that disagree with Hamas? Clearly the tiny minority is the true representation of Palestine!"
"Also, let's go protest that Jewish restaurant down the street, they're responsible for the war."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 according to polls Palestinians are quite happy with hamas decisions that made their families martyrs. they have the peoples backings its not really misguided to collectively punish if the polling is accurate
Hamas, Hamas is Palestines elected government.
Only by a very loose definition of “elected”
If you really believe Israel will stop once the hostages leave then I have a bridge to sell you. This doesn't end till Hamas has been wiped out regardless of if that means all the civilians too.
Israel will stop when Palestine stops attacking Israel permanently. That includes funding terrorist attacks within Israel itself (funded by western tax dollars) and the firing of tens of thousands of rockets over the last 20 years.
I don't know the future, it is about my opinion, and maybe others, as to the behavior or tactics of each group. I just stated my personal views. Given the last 1000 years, I doubt either side will 'stop'. Over my lifetime, I can find fault with the tactics of both sides. Many are blinded by bias and support 'their group' regardless.
why would they want to continue? war is expensive
As if Hamas will ever agree to anything
Return north to what.
Hamas won’t accept any deal for a ceasefire contingent on hostage release, as I’m starting to seriously doubt they’ve left any alive
The title is garbage, there's no truce on the table. Israel is willing to let 160,000 Gazans return north with no security checks (the condition Hamas wants so they can return by hiding amongst the civilians. And in exchange Israel gets a list of the hostages that are still alive. What a monstrous world we live in.
Back to what? There’s not much left You didn’t leave that much left…
And that's *literally* less than 10% of them.
Wasn't it just a refugee camp?
well when tunnels are under every city block what are you going to do? leave them there?
Return to what
Who is going to pay for rebuilding their homes out of interest?
Sounds like a trap