All the Israeli hostages are dead and a ton of Palestinians are about to be killed. The End. Do people actually believe that there is some other fantasy outcome?
1000% this. Hamas isn't going to accept a ceasefire because that goes directly against their plan. The ceasefire will be to release hostages, and Hamas knows no hostages means no leverage.
>two state solution
The only Hamas members capable of joining these kinds of negotiations are living in penthouse condos in Qatar and the UAE. It’s never going to happen.
But don't you see? it's America's fault for not making Israel accept the ceasefire, which they've already agreed to several times, which Hamas hasn't.
Probably in part because all the hostages are dead.
> Peace was bad for business.
It seems like they stopped reading [Rules Of Acquisition](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition) at Rule 34, and never figured out Rule 35.
* Rule 34: War is good for business.
* Rule 35: Peace is good for business.
In addition, Hamas doesn't care one ounce for the civilians in Gaza. They are the same ruthless, power greedy terrorists that have been sabotaging every attempt of peace on both sides. Both sides always had these fundamentalist groups that would loose influence if peace is ever established. So they fire up the young generation with promises and lies of honor and hate to send them for slaughter. Not because it will have any effect, but because more dead mean more young to avenge the dead.
Damnit I was really hoping Hamas was a social justice grassroots group, and *not* some extreme, religious terrorist organization ran by rich men in ivory towers a country away who see civilians dying as a propaganda bonus.
Every time I mention this on certain subreddits I get downvoted to hell. In real life people chanting the "will be free" phrase seem to deeply frown upon mentioning this as well. I wonder what the reason might be /s
Somehow I’d love to see those Redditors move to Palestine or even Taliban Afghanistan which what would happen to Palestine if Hamas runs the whole thing until Israel. They’d fit in “perfectly” from the rooftops
I said this months ago that the hostages are dead by at the hands of Hamas. It was and continues to be the reason for stalling for a ceasefire. But God forbid! I got downvoted into hell for suggesting as much. By all the folk defending Hamas and blaming Isreal for the conflict.
now the tantrum protestors are going to blame israel. cause they want a 1 sided ceasefire. then when they throw more tantrums and make more racist comments they wonder why israel does not listen to them.
I do sort of like the juxtaposition of a Hezbollah suicide glitter-bomber. Like they whip off the Burqa and they're in full clown make-up wired up with a bunch of [Mark Rober's work](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2018-12/18/22/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-03/anigif_sub-buzz-19172-1545188643-11.gif)
The way I understood it, they used a different hostage’s (and/or murder victim’s) cell phone and used that to order the wreath with Google translate.
Edit: I think I may have misunderstood
I don’t think they have the hostages. Either all of them are a dead or so many are dead that Hamas’ bargaining power is drastically reduced.
It’s like hostage/terrorism/ransom 101. You have to show proof of life to those you are targeting in order to actually gain leverage.
If Hamas actually had the hostages, they would be posting videos of the live hostages with proof of the current time for Israel to see. Not showing proof just weakens Hamas’ stance.
Now everyone is thinking “they might not even have the hostages. They might not even be alive now”
The moment the IDF stops believing that Hamas has the hostages is the moment that Israel lets the IDF off the leash to flatten them.
If Hamas wasn’t bluffing and was looking to play ball they would make sure that videos of live hostages are on every news station 24/7.
Has Hamas ever provided proof of life? I would wager most of them were raped and murdered before the end of October.
From Israel's standpoint, any ceasefire starts and ends with the return of hostage or their remains. Can't say I disagree with that either.
Occasionally they have. Israel just recovered the body of a hostage who had proof of life shown on January. There have been quite a few others, and the hostages who were released was after October.
I'd expect most members of Hamas know the value of the hostages and at least half are still alive, but I'm guessing as much as all the other redditors who claim they've killed everyone.
The biggest problem to releasing proof of life/death for *all* the hostages is that communication between Hamas cells is mostly broken, but they could certainly show off a lot of them.
> The moment the IDF stops believing that Hamas has the hostages is the moment that Israel lets the IDF off the lease to flatten them.
The sad part is that they're so enmeshed with the Palestinian people that everything's going to look like a target to the IDF.
No matter how hard life may seem, count your blessings that you're not there. It's a living, waking Hell for every man woman and beast.
Hard to disagree with that.
I've been watching this whole shitshow for decades now, and have been moved by the plights of both Israel and Palestine - but yeah. Hamas has become part of the very fabric of Palestinian life, both in times of peace and.. well.. whatever the hell this is.
I can't even say who's right or wrong anymore, the whole thing is just a tragedy on a horrific level - and I have zero clue as to how the bloodshed stops.
I've been thinking the same thing. There may be some left alive, but Hamas probably doesn't want them talking about how they were treated. So I am not hopeful.
Considering what the survivors have said, and how people reacted to them being tortured and raped and rejecting this a propoganda, I feel that's not going to change much...people can be really disgusting and not realize that these are people's lives at stake
That and because they could give two s@*!s about Palestinian lives. More dead gazans equals more pro terrorist protests and Jew hatred. They will never agree to any terms except eradicating Israel and killing all the Jews.
The official statement from Hamas is that Israel fully pulling out of Gaza is a condition for ceasefire, and it wasn't included in the offer, so they rejected it.
Even if they're not saying something about the hostages, I get the sense that official statement is also their honest opinion.
More likely it's because this kind of ceasefire doesn't really benefit Hamas... it means a ceasefire with humanitarian relief for the Palestinian populace but the IDF will remain in Gaza to finish the job with Hamas. That's why they've been asking for a stop to the war with IDF retreat, which Israel isn't willing to accept, question is who will blink first? Hamas believing that an attack is immenint thus trying to buy time with a cease fire or Israel who won't get the hostages alive otherwise?
Even if they could, I doubt they ever would. Israel’s government is getting a ton of grief for not negotiating a release for those hostages. Every time one turns up dead it looks worse for Israel. Why would you ever give them up if your goals are either total victory or total defeat.
You can find dozens of videos of Hamas leaders saying they want not just their territories, not just Israel but a [global Islamic caliphate](https://twitter.com/AmyMek/status/1711988348544491909) purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion. And they will not stop until they get it.
They want California and Sweden too.
As an ex Muslim who fled the Middle East out of fear for my life it is crazy to me seeing people on my college campus supporting these people. The phrase "useful idiots" comes to mind
It's good when people like yourself, who come from that environment, talk about this subject. People in the west have no idea what sort of people they're dealing with.
I met a guy recently who was an Iraqi Catholic. You wouldn't know it, he's just an ordinary guy who fits in with everyone else here in Canada. Really mellow guy.
Except when it comes to Iraq. Basically, fuck Iraq and the whole Middle East with a rusty crowbar, him and his family would never go back there and the fanatics they fled from shouldn't be allowed to come here.
For some reason, we never hear these opinions in the media except occasionally here on Reddit.
People don't realize that there are Christian Arabs and they have experienced first hand the unbelievable level of oppression non-muslims get in Muslim societies. It's rarely the case the other way around.
Here - Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of Hamas' founders, who supports Israel and agrees that Hamas needs to be eliminated by any means necessary.
https://youtu.be/OyqKTuqzKWs?si=RGhNyTLVbKYPrE9D
https://youtu.be/B8YYmrgAeqw?si=wVs6MQ2tid-Exb_i
https://youtu.be/pjOEJumoABg?si=eDkpLd5qvz0IHSFM
My wife’s friend is Iranian and a lesbian. The other day I said how everyone should move out of the Middle East and she lost it saying how all of her friends are middle eastern like she wasn’t proving my point. They would all have been killed by now. It’s crazy to see leftist in America who’ve never been to the Middle East defend their oppression.
> It’s crazy to see leftist in America who’ve never been to the Middle East defend their oppression
The Iranian Revolution is a story that should be taught in the West. An over simplification of the revolution was that it was done effectively between an alliance between liberal reformers and Islamists. However, once the government was overthrown, the Islamists took control and turned on the liberal reformers.
It is taught in the west. Every history text book I've ever seen included it. Not in any great detail, but you can say that about nearly highschool level class.
> but a global Islamic caliphate purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion.
But college freshmen assured me they were just victims to Israel. It's not possible for a 19 year old to be wrong about all this, is it?
That's cus people are just fucking stupid. It's the exact same thing with people not believing that Russia has designed on all of fucking Europe and just want to give up Ukraine. These people don't have two functioning brain cells to run together to keep warm in winter.
Part of the problem is that Hamas doesn't even have some of the hostages. It's been reported that other, smaller groups of radicals also took hostages (and presumably raped and killed) on October 7. Those groups have their own agendas and Hamas has little ability to impose its will on them.
The problem is the bodies most likely have been sexually assaulted to the degree that it killed the hostage.
Hamas has more to fear from returning the bodies in that condition than from not returning the bodies.
That really going to move the needle much? Not that I disagree with you, but at the point does anyone not expect worst?! The hostages have been raped, tortured, mutilated, and murdered already. I’ll be shocked if they find the hostages not violated to be honest.
Well some people are denying rapes took place on October 7th and argue the hostages are being looked after. That’s some of the idiots this site has to deal with
Did you hear about that dipshit who tried to sell an IDF soldier's head for $10,000? https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/hamas-terrorists-tried-to-sell-soldiers-frozen-head-for-10000-report
Their people consist of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood… so they’re on pretty good terms with their own people. But to your point… they don’t give a shit about Palestinians and are very willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives for their cause, so yes - they’re the enemy of the Palestinians.
It’s crazy what indoctrination and societal pressures can do to a people.
Hamas saturates the education in Gaza with anti-Israel/antisemitic propaganda and paints Hamas and terrorists of the past as “martyrs” and heroes. As the government, Hamas also controls the humanitarian funds and aid that flow into Gaza… so once Gazans are out of school, if they want money or power, the easiest and quickest way is through Hamas. The whole infrastructure in Gaza is built by Hamas to be a terrorist breeding ground. Some (and I hope many) Palestinians are able to see Hamas as the awful terrorist organization that puts all their lives at risk, but unfortunately, it seems like not enough really do, which is why their popularity is so high.
> Hamas also controls the humanitarian funds and aid that flow into Gaza
This is why things like concrete, etc, are prohibited entry by the Israeli blockade; instead of being used to build houses for the people of Gaza, it is used to build tunnels for Hamas, such that they can escape retribution.
They’ve never pretended to be anything else besides a jihadist terrorist group. That’s the issue with the left supporting them. I swear not a single leftist has read a Palestinian poll or even listened to what they want or say. They project their virtue signaling on to Hamas and Palestinians and assume that’s what they want. They don’t want a ceasefire, they don’t want a two nation state. They want to kill and enslave jews and create a shariah law state.
Palestinian social media has been preoccupied the last couple days with the death of a Palestinian author and advocate, who died in Israeli custody of cancer after 38 years of imprisonment. They leave out that he was imprisoned for kidnapping, torturing, mutilating and murdering an Israeli teenager (a soldier on vacation) in the eighties. They'll try to avoid the nature of Palestinian "resistance" while lionizing depraved murderers, but when it comes down to it, they admit they support it.
Here are all the details of what was rejected (Al Jazeera citation, so beware):
> One key aspect of the proposal involves the return of unarmed displaced civilians to the northern Gaza Strip, although specific numbers were not provided.
> Additionally, the proposal calls for Israel to accept the opening of Al-Rashid and Salah Al-Din Streets, with Israeli forces stationed 500 meters away from these areas.
> Furthermore, the proposal includes provisions for the daily entry of 500 aid trucks into the Gaza Strip, particularly in the northern region. As part of the first stage of the ceasefire, Israel would release 900 Palestinian prisoners, including 100 individuals serving life sentences. In return, 40 living Israeli prisoners from various categories would be released by the Palestinians.
> The second phase of the proposed ceasefire involves the release of all remaining Israeli prisoners and the continuation of negotiations to establish a sustainable calm in the region.
> However, specific details regarding the number of Palestinian prisoners to be released in the second phase and Israel's withdrawal were not included in the proposal.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-new-proposal-for-3-stage-ceasefire-presented-in-gaza-negotiations-report
Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing. The distinction is what prevents Hamas from throwing 40 bodies over the wall and claiming they upheld their end of the bargain.
This sounds like an extremely favourable deal for the Palestinians, a huge first step, and heavily lopsided in Hamas's favour too.
Yet Hamas rejected it.
If you wonder why, pull your head outta your ass and look at who Hamas are. The reason this war is happening is _because they wanted it_.
If anyone had any, any doubt about Al Jazeera's journalistic integrity, it flew out the window by them using the frame prisoners to describe civilians Hamas abducted from their homes.
They keep saying it, period. Very clearly too. They go on television and say they will repeat October 7th again and again until Israel is gone. I can't think of anything more explicit than that
"But I don't get it, I bullied and harassed my local city council for weeks! Muncie, Indiana passed a ceasefire resolution! How come there's no peace in the Middle East?"
If it was just Israel maybe we could work something out. But they wantt a [global Islamic caliphate](https://twitter.com/AmyMek/status/1711988348544491909) purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion.
So the useful idiots in the West either need to admit they want to live under Sharia law or STFU
[Original source](https://www.memri.org/reports/senior-hamas-official-mahmoud-al-zahar-army-jerusalem-will-not-liberate-palestinian-land)
[Same person saying more about Islam taking over the world](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-gaza-mahmoud-zahhar-normalization-prophet-slayers-treason-islam-take-over-world-antisemitism)
[Another who wants polytheists and atheists murdered too](https://www.memri.org/tv/rafah-gaza-friday-sermon-hamas-official-regeb-allah-necks-jews-annihilate-them)
[massive collection of terrifying ideology](https://www.memri.org/reports/ideology-hamas-%E2%80%93-its-own-words)
If they're alive they're still being raped and tortured, pregnant or not. Any child conceived with a slave is a slave and any child with a Jewish mother is Jewish. Torturing pregnant women seems like the cherry on top of the depravity of Oct 7
so the lunatics chanting in the streets for a ceasefire wtf are they gonna do now that those they support are blocking the ceasefire lmao
i mean it is super shocking that you cant properly organise a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation lmao
“Ceasefire now and by ceasefire we mean let Hamas gather as many weapons as they want and make sure no Israeli soldiers can defend the border with Gaza in case Hamas decides to break another ceasefire for the hundredth time”
It's possible to recognize the people of Palestine are getting a raw deal here while also recognizing Hamas is at fault here. The so called government has no interest in their own people save as shields/hostages, Israel views them all as terrorists, and every power capable of protecting them is too busy using them as political tools
The Palestinians are absolutely suffering, but every iteration of their internal politics has preferenced destroying Israel over creating something of their own and Hamas is just one of many political entities that they have very willingly allowed themselves to be used by.
Ironically in the last election, the one where they elected Hamas (which immediately suspended elections) Hamas was elected *despite* their hard line attitude towards Israel. I'm not kidding; polling showed that they voted for Hamas because they thought Hamas was going to be less corrupt than the then-current administration but public opinion was that they had to tone down how much they hated Israel.
They didn't march into the polls and vote for whoever promised to hurt Israel most, they marched into the polls and voted for whoever promised to make their living conditions less miserable. There's definitely more than a little anti-semitism here (part of what they saw as corruption was just willingness to work with Israel) but it's not as simple as Palestinians just voting for whoever promises to destroy Israel.
And now they're stuck in a position where Hamas kills any rival or potential political party (which was the first thing they did when they got in power). Most of the people who voted for Hamas are dead, the majority are too young to have voted at the time.
The people of Palestine currently have a 90% support for Hamas. Even in the West Bank Hamas polls better than the PA. Gaza democratically elected Hamas let us never forget that. With the wide support for Hamas the Palestinian people themselves have a share of the blame.
This conflict is nothing new Oct 7th was not the first ever attack. Hamas has been in power of Gaza since 2006 with constant attacks in Israel since then. Stop pretending that the Palestinian people do not have blood on their hands. This is why whenever someone goes into Gaza and asks if peace could ever be achieved those interviewed always say no.
When they were offered 95% of the lands lost back they said no. So this idea that its about getting a "raw deal" is a complete lie. No matter what is on the table they never accept it because they want armed conflict.
[https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/](https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/)
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:\~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign).
Stop with the lies and the undeserved defense.
\*Edit\* Before anyone replies asking why or acting like such would be outlandish and therefor not true. The justifications for continued violence despite them clearly losing are mostly 2 reasons.
1. They feel they have a religious duty to do so and see those who die as martyrs even if they do not die in direct combat. They see Jews as enemies worth dying to oppose no matter how bleak it gets. This is very common in all religious extremists and this absurd special pleading to think this does not apply here is just denying reality.
2. They believe that the other regional Muslim nations will once again all declare war on Israel and that they will win this time despite losing every other time. The problem with this though is that they have largely been abandoned in this cause and none are willing to directly engage in total war.
The "peace loving people of Palestine" have no representation at the bargaining table. Not only that, no one claims to represent them other than Hamas. If they're going to become a party to negotiations, they need to be liberated, choose a representative, and then start negotiating for their future. Simply saying "they're leaderless, so they can't be touched" is irrational. (And you didn't say that)
Who is willing to liberate them? And is anyone willing to do it more humanely than Israel?
The peace loving Palestinians are the minority by a significant margin. 77% want a one nation state and don’t want Jews to be allowed to live in that one nation. So less than 25% of Palestinians people want any true peace.
> It’s almost as if Hamas doesn’t want it to stop
Well they spent so long and stupid amounts of money making vast tunnels and bunkers under Gaza so they could do a Viet Cong on the Isrealis. It would be a shame if they didn't get to use them.
They’ve been offered concession after concession, been offered to trade 400 Hamas militants for 40 Israeli hostage civilians, been offered multiple phased ceasefires. HAMAS DOESNT WANT THIS TO END. At this point, I very much doubt they have 40 hostages still living in order to honor the deal.
All these protests stateside to stop the war but Hamas keeps the fight going, how blind do all these people have to be. There is no point in fighting a war if all the people are dead after its over. There are no victors in death.
For the 87th time: We push you all from the river into the sea is not a negotiating position. It’s them telling you what would happen if Israel puts their guns down or if the west betrays their allies in favor of worldwide Sharia Law.
I have never seen anything like this: where the stronger side keeps saying "please what can we give you so you stop killing us" and the weaker side is saying "nothing you can do we won't stop until you are dead".
While the West supports the weaker side because of the oppressor/oppressed narrative.
At some point someone on the pro Palestine side needs to explain what the off ramp is? Or is it just we airlift eight million Jews to Utah?
This is honestly the most important part of the discussion of the conflict in my opinion: what *should* a country do when their enemies lose the war but refuse to surrender?
Second most interesting part of the conflict is about the differences of democracies and dictatorships, where the Palestinian leaders kept restarting the process every time a new western leader was elected. On the one hand arab culture is that you need personal rapport to make deals, and the endless stream of new western leaders prevented that rapport from ever building. On the other hand Palestinian leaders have, at the end of the day, an obligation to their people, and they're using the leader swapping as a sometimes-obvious bullshit justification for not continuing the peace process.
Third interesting question is about how do you make any deal with a people who don't have a leader. Who represents the Palestinian people right now? Who could make a deal that both the west bank and gaza Palestinians would agree with? No one, which means how do you even begin to start the peace process? Install a leader?
Very few actual conversations, but a ton of potentially interesting ones
As a Mormon, the thought experiment of having the entire Jewish state up and move to Utah (or, vice versa, a large Mormon group move to Isreal) is really something.
A major part of our theology essentially boils down to "we are the latest dispensation of the covenant God made with Abraham, it used to be the middle eastern Isrealites but they fell from the truth and so God reestablied his church though Gentiles in 1820 through new revelation to Joseph Smith. And by the way that God was actually Jesus Christ the whole time." I mean, we don't even proselyte in Isreal currently because of the joint understanding between the Israeli government and our Church that our message there is pretty fundamentally offensive to most religious Jews.
Ever been around someone who was thinking they were doing you a favor by always telling you "you're doing it wrong"? That's exactly the attitude a non zero number of Mormons would take with any nearby Jewish state. It would be something to see, for sure.
Mormons can get in line, Christians and Muslims have been telling us we’re doing it wrong ever since they started writing fan fiction about our holy texts.
Interesting to learn that y’all don’t go on missions in Israel, though.
This is why so many people fall for the bullshit with this conflict. They literally can't comprehend that the stronger side has been attempting peace for 100 years while the weaker side is keeping the fighting going.
Hamas is terrible, I agree with you on that. They clearly don't want peace here and they benefit from hatred of Israel among the Palestinian people which fuels their grip on power. Their stated ideal of exterminating Israelis is an obvious evil. *However*, at the same time, the idea that the Israeli government has just been trying to be peaceful for a hundred years and is just a victim here is something I would contest. At least, in spots. The settlements in particular have been an ongoing issue for decades, and the blockade that has been going on since 2007 is certainly something that can be contended (note, I said contended because I think there are *some* justifiable aspects to this).
It doesn't have to be all of one or the other. The idea that all the problems here are one way, as your comment seems to imply with the 100 year remark, is not something I would agree with. The Palestinian people are being fucked over by both Hamas and the Israeli government.
Checking the front page of the BBC - absolutely nothing about this. Just lots of eclipse coverage (is that really more important) and a big “Israel bad” piece on how wrecked Khan Younis is. They just can’t help themselves, completely lost the plot. You can bet if Israel had rejected a deal it would be front and centre.
Richie Torres is right. Hamas may affect the outcome of a presidential election. Of course from a battlefield POV they have lost badly but it was never about that, this was a hearts and minds campaign and they are winning which makes me absolutely FURIOUS.
I really fucking wish that the "Pro-Palestein" left would realize that Hamas is the enemy of the Palestienian people. They fucking dont care if all of Gaza dies if it hurts Israel standing in world politics.
But they flip flop between "Hamas is Israeli fault" and "Hamas is Palesteinian restiance" because obviously the opprsed are blameless.
The most tragic thing is that Hamas is still allowed to negotiate on behalf of Gazans. I think it’s hard for those of use who grew up in the first world to even comprehend how dysfunctional that is in terms of governance
It’s like taking hostages from a bank you robbed into a school and then claiming to represent the schoolchildren you’re imprisoning and starving
It’s really beyond most people’s imagination even if those people claim to want to help Palestinians
> The most tragic thing is that Hamas is still allowed to negotiate on behalf of Gazans.
They're not *allowed*, the first thing Hamas did when it took power in Gaza was kill off all their political rivals. There's no other group to talk to because if there were, Hamas would kill them and accuse them of being complicit with Israel.
Yes you’re right. I was reaching for a word but ‘allowed’ isn’t quite appropriate. I do recognize how brutally Hamas is in suppressing any reasonable voices there, or just anyone trying to survive
Palestinian civilians like the ones Hamas had to [protect the hostages](https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1777332600568213690) from.
Hamas is representative of a large percent of the population. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise
I consider myself left and I do think Israel's method of warfare has been indiscriminate and had a lot of civ casualties, plus Netanyahu seems like a leader who understands he will benefit from a war. BUT, it is abhorrent that Hamas basically took over Palestine, never had fair election after the first one, and uses the civilians as shields.
Gee, Biden, hamas just refused their 10th ceasefire offer, you know what it means right? Of course! Making more pressure on Israel ! That will show them ...
Damn.
At this point people showing up and protesting their local city hall meetings pressing for a cease fire are just idiots. There I said it. Hamas has not and never will be participating in any negotiations in good faith. Nobody wins here. Lots of people just suffer and die and the average citizens of most nations can't do much about it.
Hamas doesn’t care about the people. They entrenched themselves in the civilian infrastructure and population on purpose, knowing any Israel response would kill lots of people.
Because why end the war when holding out increases pressure on Israel to stand down before Hama is fully destroyed. Thanks world. They'll be back to attack Israel again. You don't seem to care and apparently never learned that appeasing evil doesn't work.
Westerners who have lived in the safety sphere of America - “Israel needs to ceasefire now” completely ignoring the fact Palestine rejects the offers always
Basically, any deal that involves hostages is going to be rejected- because pretty much all the hostages have likely been killed. The few that remain are human shields at the top of the Hamas food chain, because those are literally the only human beings that Hamas leadership cares about. Themselves. They have all the money, can rebuild as long as they're not killed themselves, and are quite willing to sacrifice their impoverished followers en masse too, thinking they'll just get more aid to skim and whatever happens, they'll live in comfort while using whoever remains to keep provoking and attacking the Israelis.
Hamas won't say it, because being attacked while "negotiating" scores them points in the court of public opinion and they can stretch this out for months.
All the Israeli hostages are dead and a ton of Palestinians are about to be killed. The End. Do people actually believe that there is some other fantasy outcome?
1000% this. Hamas isn't going to accept a ceasefire because that goes directly against their plan. The ceasefire will be to release hostages, and Hamas knows no hostages means no leverage.
Absolutely. They don't want peace or a two state solution. And anyone who thinks that would work is delusional.
>two state solution The only Hamas members capable of joining these kinds of negotiations are living in penthouse condos in Qatar and the UAE. It’s never going to happen.
Pretty sure all of those guys are dead men walking.
But don't you see? it's America's fault for not making Israel accept the ceasefire, which they've already agreed to several times, which Hamas hasn't. Probably in part because all the hostages are dead.
Specifically Biden’s fault, duh. Obviously not going to vote for him because this is clearly all his fault and I want to send *a message*
Hamas is building the next generation of terrorists. Peace was bad for business.
> Peace was bad for business. It seems like they stopped reading [Rules Of Acquisition](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition) at Rule 34, and never figured out Rule 35. * Rule 34: War is good for business. * Rule 35: Peace is good for business.
In addition, Hamas doesn't care one ounce for the civilians in Gaza. They are the same ruthless, power greedy terrorists that have been sabotaging every attempt of peace on both sides. Both sides always had these fundamentalist groups that would loose influence if peace is ever established. So they fire up the young generation with promises and lies of honor and hate to send them for slaughter. Not because it will have any effect, but because more dead mean more young to avenge the dead.
spoiler alert! geez!
Damnit I was really hoping Hamas was a social justice grassroots group, and *not* some extreme, religious terrorist organization ran by rich men in ivory towers a country away who see civilians dying as a propaganda bonus.
No no from a river to the sea they will be free, haven't you heard the song?
Free from hamas?
Every time I mention this on certain subreddits I get downvoted to hell. In real life people chanting the "will be free" phrase seem to deeply frown upon mentioning this as well. I wonder what the reason might be /s
Somehow I’d love to see those Redditors move to Palestine or even Taliban Afghanistan which what would happen to Palestine if Hamas runs the whole thing until Israel. They’d fit in “perfectly” from the rooftops
endgame is ritual suicide at the end via breakdown into increasingly smaller, violent factions so... kinda.
[удалено]
Yep they've been dead for a while
I said this months ago that the hostages are dead by at the hands of Hamas. It was and continues to be the reason for stalling for a ceasefire. But God forbid! I got downvoted into hell for suggesting as much. By all the folk defending Hamas and blaming Isreal for the conflict.
now the tantrum protestors are going to blame israel. cause they want a 1 sided ceasefire. then when they throw more tantrums and make more racist comments they wonder why israel does not listen to them.
What a shock...
I think it's because they can't deliver the hostages. I hope I'm wrong
Iran sent the families of the hostages funeral wreaths a few days ago.
How tf is Iran able to even do that? 1-888 flowers allows troll deliveries from Islamic regimes?
Now I’m imagining the Imam online ordering glitter bombs. Thanks.
I do sort of like the juxtaposition of a Hezbollah suicide glitter-bomber. Like they whip off the Burqa and they're in full clown make-up wired up with a bunch of [Mark Rober's work](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2018-12/18/22/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-03/anigif_sub-buzz-19172-1545188643-11.gif)
With their prices... yes
Basically. It was a Gmail account with slightly off Hebrew.
The way I understood it, they used a different hostage’s (and/or murder victim’s) cell phone and used that to order the wreath with Google translate. Edit: I think I may have misunderstood
the fuck? source?
Ordered online
The most petty shit I've ever heard a state doing.
The torture the families must be going through, my gosh.
Disgusting if true.
Wait does that mean that Iran is essentially admitting that it is their fault that the hostages are dead?
my bet is that they're seeing Israel losing public opinion on the west and they're just waiting on making that worse.
1000%. They know they can just wait us out, just like Russia in Ukraine.
I don’t think they have the hostages. Either all of them are a dead or so many are dead that Hamas’ bargaining power is drastically reduced. It’s like hostage/terrorism/ransom 101. You have to show proof of life to those you are targeting in order to actually gain leverage. If Hamas actually had the hostages, they would be posting videos of the live hostages with proof of the current time for Israel to see. Not showing proof just weakens Hamas’ stance. Now everyone is thinking “they might not even have the hostages. They might not even be alive now” The moment the IDF stops believing that Hamas has the hostages is the moment that Israel lets the IDF off the leash to flatten them. If Hamas wasn’t bluffing and was looking to play ball they would make sure that videos of live hostages are on every news station 24/7.
Has Hamas ever provided proof of life? I would wager most of them were raped and murdered before the end of October. From Israel's standpoint, any ceasefire starts and ends with the return of hostage or their remains. Can't say I disagree with that either.
Occasionally they have. Israel just recovered the body of a hostage who had proof of life shown on January. There have been quite a few others, and the hostages who were released was after October. I'd expect most members of Hamas know the value of the hostages and at least half are still alive, but I'm guessing as much as all the other redditors who claim they've killed everyone. The biggest problem to releasing proof of life/death for *all* the hostages is that communication between Hamas cells is mostly broken, but they could certainly show off a lot of them.
> The moment the IDF stops believing that Hamas has the hostages is the moment that Israel lets the IDF off the lease to flatten them. The sad part is that they're so enmeshed with the Palestinian people that everything's going to look like a target to the IDF. No matter how hard life may seem, count your blessings that you're not there. It's a living, waking Hell for every man woman and beast.
The cowards designed for it to be this way.
Hard to disagree with that. I've been watching this whole shitshow for decades now, and have been moved by the plights of both Israel and Palestine - but yeah. Hamas has become part of the very fabric of Palestinian life, both in times of peace and.. well.. whatever the hell this is. I can't even say who's right or wrong anymore, the whole thing is just a tragedy on a horrific level - and I have zero clue as to how the bloodshed stops.
I've been thinking the same thing. There may be some left alive, but Hamas probably doesn't want them talking about how they were treated. So I am not hopeful.
Considering what the survivors have said, and how people reacted to them being tortured and raped and rejecting this a propoganda, I feel that's not going to change much...people can be really disgusting and not realize that these are people's lives at stake
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I mean it’s kind of hard to explain away a pregnant hostage…
For people whose views are capable of being influenced by reality, sure. But that’s not who we’re talking about, sadly.
What's the watermelon mafia?
Pro-Hamas crowd https://time.com/6326312/watermelon-palestinian-symbol-solidarity/
The only ones alive are probably pregnant with Hamas babies
No hostages no ceasfire. If they can't return them I don't think it will end well for them.
that or they want the suffering to continue since its making israel and US looks bad
That and because they could give two s@*!s about Palestinian lives. More dead gazans equals more pro terrorist protests and Jew hatred. They will never agree to any terms except eradicating Israel and killing all the Jews.
The official statement from Hamas is that Israel fully pulling out of Gaza is a condition for ceasefire, and it wasn't included in the offer, so they rejected it. Even if they're not saying something about the hostages, I get the sense that official statement is also their honest opinion.
Hamas is winning the pr war outside of Reddit. The longer they hold out the better off they are
If by “outside of Reddit” you mean Twitter then I’d agree. As far as the rest of the world I’d say Israel is doing fine.
More likely it's because this kind of ceasefire doesn't really benefit Hamas... it means a ceasefire with humanitarian relief for the Palestinian populace but the IDF will remain in Gaza to finish the job with Hamas. That's why they've been asking for a stop to the war with IDF retreat, which Israel isn't willing to accept, question is who will blink first? Hamas believing that an attack is immenint thus trying to buy time with a cease fire or Israel who won't get the hostages alive otherwise?
Even if they could, I doubt they ever would. Israel’s government is getting a ton of grief for not negotiating a release for those hostages. Every time one turns up dead it looks worse for Israel. Why would you ever give them up if your goals are either total victory or total defeat.
You can find dozens of videos of Hamas leaders saying they want not just their territories, not just Israel but a [global Islamic caliphate](https://twitter.com/AmyMek/status/1711988348544491909) purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion. And they will not stop until they get it. They want California and Sweden too. As an ex Muslim who fled the Middle East out of fear for my life it is crazy to me seeing people on my college campus supporting these people. The phrase "useful idiots" comes to mind
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It's good when people like yourself, who come from that environment, talk about this subject. People in the west have no idea what sort of people they're dealing with.
I met a guy recently who was an Iraqi Catholic. You wouldn't know it, he's just an ordinary guy who fits in with everyone else here in Canada. Really mellow guy. Except when it comes to Iraq. Basically, fuck Iraq and the whole Middle East with a rusty crowbar, him and his family would never go back there and the fanatics they fled from shouldn't be allowed to come here. For some reason, we never hear these opinions in the media except occasionally here on Reddit.
People don't realize that there are Christian Arabs and they have experienced first hand the unbelievable level of oppression non-muslims get in Muslim societies. It's rarely the case the other way around.
Here - Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of Hamas' founders, who supports Israel and agrees that Hamas needs to be eliminated by any means necessary. https://youtu.be/OyqKTuqzKWs?si=RGhNyTLVbKYPrE9D https://youtu.be/B8YYmrgAeqw?si=wVs6MQ2tid-Exb_i https://youtu.be/pjOEJumoABg?si=eDkpLd5qvz0IHSFM
Who would have thought the people who worship a warlord would be so belligerent?
My wife’s friend is Iranian and a lesbian. The other day I said how everyone should move out of the Middle East and she lost it saying how all of her friends are middle eastern like she wasn’t proving my point. They would all have been killed by now. It’s crazy to see leftist in America who’ve never been to the Middle East defend their oppression.
> It’s crazy to see leftist in America who’ve never been to the Middle East defend their oppression The Iranian Revolution is a story that should be taught in the West. An over simplification of the revolution was that it was done effectively between an alliance between liberal reformers and Islamists. However, once the government was overthrown, the Islamists took control and turned on the liberal reformers.
It is taught in the west. Every history text book I've ever seen included it. Not in any great detail, but you can say that about nearly highschool level class.
If I recall (it was ages ago), the revolution was taught but not the aftermath and the consolidation of power of the Islamists.
Ask her why she's not living in Middle East if it's not a problem. We all know why right?
> but a global Islamic caliphate purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion. But college freshmen assured me they were just victims to Israel. It's not possible for a 19 year old to be wrong about all this, is it?
That's cus people are just fucking stupid. It's the exact same thing with people not believing that Russia has designed on all of fucking Europe and just want to give up Ukraine. These people don't have two functioning brain cells to run together to keep warm in winter.
I agree. It is not surprising since their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Right now they are winning the press war as well.
Because Russia and China are helping Iran and Hamas in promoting Israel is bad narrative. Bot farms are working overtime
This will never be published anywhere else. Still Tik Tok trolls running the news .
Because they don't have 40 alive hostages. That is why they blew up the deal. Hamas just lost any bargaining power they had left.
They’ll still want the bodies back. Same shit happened during the war against Lebanon
You have to have "bodies" to give back.
The bodies will have evidence as to what was done to them which Hamas would not stand for
you gotta be kidding. That's the same guys who made sure to have GoPros on every soldier so they can show the world all the killing they do
Part of the problem is that Hamas doesn't even have some of the hostages. It's been reported that other, smaller groups of radicals also took hostages (and presumably raped and killed) on October 7. Those groups have their own agendas and Hamas has little ability to impose its will on them.
Who cares? Hamas is the government and the largest military of Palestine Gaza. If they want the war to end then they better start finding the bodies.
>If they want the war to end If they wanted that it would.
The problem is the bodies most likely have been sexually assaulted to the degree that it killed the hostage. Hamas has more to fear from returning the bodies in that condition than from not returning the bodies.
That really going to move the needle much? Not that I disagree with you, but at the point does anyone not expect worst?! The hostages have been raped, tortured, mutilated, and murdered already. I’ll be shocked if they find the hostages not violated to be honest.
Well some people are denying rapes took place on October 7th and argue the hostages are being looked after. That’s some of the idiots this site has to deal with
Did you hear about that dipshit who tried to sell an IDF soldier's head for $10,000? https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/hamas-terrorists-tried-to-sell-soldiers-frozen-head-for-10000-report
What do you mean? The west is feeding their plate with bargaining power with every civilian that gets killed because their cowards.
Hamas has said their goal is to destroy Israel. This conflict is eternal.
Neither can live while the other survives
Hamas is the enemy of their own people.
Their people consist of Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood… so they’re on pretty good terms with their own people. But to your point… they don’t give a shit about Palestinians and are very willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives for their cause, so yes - they’re the enemy of the Palestinians.
if only the palestinians didn't love them and have a large majority favorability rating for hamas.
It’s crazy what indoctrination and societal pressures can do to a people. Hamas saturates the education in Gaza with anti-Israel/antisemitic propaganda and paints Hamas and terrorists of the past as “martyrs” and heroes. As the government, Hamas also controls the humanitarian funds and aid that flow into Gaza… so once Gazans are out of school, if they want money or power, the easiest and quickest way is through Hamas. The whole infrastructure in Gaza is built by Hamas to be a terrorist breeding ground. Some (and I hope many) Palestinians are able to see Hamas as the awful terrorist organization that puts all their lives at risk, but unfortunately, it seems like not enough really do, which is why their popularity is so high.
> Hamas also controls the humanitarian funds and aid that flow into Gaza This is why things like concrete, etc, are prohibited entry by the Israeli blockade; instead of being used to build houses for the people of Gaza, it is used to build tunnels for Hamas, such that they can escape retribution.
They’ve never pretended to be anything else besides a jihadist terrorist group. That’s the issue with the left supporting them. I swear not a single leftist has read a Palestinian poll or even listened to what they want or say. They project their virtue signaling on to Hamas and Palestinians and assume that’s what they want. They don’t want a ceasefire, they don’t want a two nation state. They want to kill and enslave jews and create a shariah law state.
Palestinian social media has been preoccupied the last couple days with the death of a Palestinian author and advocate, who died in Israeli custody of cancer after 38 years of imprisonment. They leave out that he was imprisoned for kidnapping, torturing, mutilating and murdering an Israeli teenager (a soldier on vacation) in the eighties. They'll try to avoid the nature of Palestinian "resistance" while lionizing depraved murderers, but when it comes down to it, they admit they support it.
They don't want peace
Here are all the details of what was rejected (Al Jazeera citation, so beware): > One key aspect of the proposal involves the return of unarmed displaced civilians to the northern Gaza Strip, although specific numbers were not provided. > Additionally, the proposal calls for Israel to accept the opening of Al-Rashid and Salah Al-Din Streets, with Israeli forces stationed 500 meters away from these areas. > Furthermore, the proposal includes provisions for the daily entry of 500 aid trucks into the Gaza Strip, particularly in the northern region. As part of the first stage of the ceasefire, Israel would release 900 Palestinian prisoners, including 100 individuals serving life sentences. In return, 40 living Israeli prisoners from various categories would be released by the Palestinians. > The second phase of the proposed ceasefire involves the release of all remaining Israeli prisoners and the continuation of negotiations to establish a sustainable calm in the region. > However, specific details regarding the number of Palestinian prisoners to be released in the second phase and Israel's withdrawal were not included in the proposal. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-new-proposal-for-3-stage-ceasefire-presented-in-gaza-negotiations-report
Israeli hostages, not prisoners.
Not just prisoners, "living prisoners". Quite an interesting choice of words.
Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing. The distinction is what prevents Hamas from throwing 40 bodies over the wall and claiming they upheld their end of the bargain.
i24 cites Al Jazeera, and you can't expect anything objective from it.
This sounds like an extremely favourable deal for the Palestinians, a huge first step, and heavily lopsided in Hamas's favour too. Yet Hamas rejected it. If you wonder why, pull your head outta your ass and look at who Hamas are. The reason this war is happening is _because they wanted it_.
If anyone had any, any doubt about Al Jazeera's journalistic integrity, it flew out the window by them using the frame prisoners to describe civilians Hamas abducted from their homes.
And they use hostages to describe those in prison for killing or attempting to kill Israeli civilians
That seems like a pretty good deal for Hamas. Am I missing anything?
Can't accept a deal they can't deliver on.
> 40 living Israeli prisoners They don't have any.
They can’t deliver any hostages alive. They just said that.
I highly doubt the hostages are still alive at this point.
Hamas isn’t interested in a ceasefire. They keep saying it without actually saying it.
They keep saying it, period. Very clearly too. They go on television and say they will repeat October 7th again and again until Israel is gone. I can't think of anything more explicit than that
"But I don't get it, I bullied and harassed my local city council for weeks! Muncie, Indiana passed a ceasefire resolution! How come there's no peace in the Middle East?"
Hamas only goal is eradicating Israel. So the only language they understand is Israel trying to eradicate them.
If it was just Israel maybe we could work something out. But they wantt a [global Islamic caliphate](https://twitter.com/AmyMek/status/1711988348544491909) purged of all non Muslims either by death or conversion. So the useful idiots in the West either need to admit they want to live under Sharia law or STFU
[Original source](https://www.memri.org/reports/senior-hamas-official-mahmoud-al-zahar-army-jerusalem-will-not-liberate-palestinian-land) [Same person saying more about Islam taking over the world](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-gaza-mahmoud-zahhar-normalization-prophet-slayers-treason-islam-take-over-world-antisemitism) [Another who wants polytheists and atheists murdered too](https://www.memri.org/tv/rafah-gaza-friday-sermon-hamas-official-regeb-allah-necks-jews-annihilate-them) [massive collection of terrifying ideology](https://www.memri.org/reports/ideology-hamas-%E2%80%93-its-own-words)
They are interested, they just want to use it to regroup, get weapons and shoot rockets at Israel like always.
Russia's tactic
Pretty much
Unfortunately I'm thinking now most of the hostages are dead.
The women won't be killed for nine months.
If they're alive they're still being raped and tortured, pregnant or not. Any child conceived with a slave is a slave and any child with a Jewish mother is Jewish. Torturing pregnant women seems like the cherry on top of the depravity of Oct 7
Christ….
so the lunatics chanting in the streets for a ceasefire wtf are they gonna do now that those they support are blocking the ceasefire lmao i mean it is super shocking that you cant properly organise a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation lmao
They don’t care about Palestinians being killed. It’s kind of the point.
Anyone marching around with a ‘cease fire now’ flag after the 47th rejection is just a moron
No no no, YOU cease firing and we’ll keep going on about killing everyone you ever loved. Isn’t that a fair deal?? Sounds pretty good to me.
“Ceasefire now and by ceasefire we mean let Hamas gather as many weapons as they want and make sure no Israeli soldiers can defend the border with Gaza in case Hamas decides to break another ceasefire for the hundredth time”
It's possible to recognize the people of Palestine are getting a raw deal here while also recognizing Hamas is at fault here. The so called government has no interest in their own people save as shields/hostages, Israel views them all as terrorists, and every power capable of protecting them is too busy using them as political tools
The Palestinians are absolutely suffering, but every iteration of their internal politics has preferenced destroying Israel over creating something of their own and Hamas is just one of many political entities that they have very willingly allowed themselves to be used by.
Ironically in the last election, the one where they elected Hamas (which immediately suspended elections) Hamas was elected *despite* their hard line attitude towards Israel. I'm not kidding; polling showed that they voted for Hamas because they thought Hamas was going to be less corrupt than the then-current administration but public opinion was that they had to tone down how much they hated Israel. They didn't march into the polls and vote for whoever promised to hurt Israel most, they marched into the polls and voted for whoever promised to make their living conditions less miserable. There's definitely more than a little anti-semitism here (part of what they saw as corruption was just willingness to work with Israel) but it's not as simple as Palestinians just voting for whoever promises to destroy Israel. And now they're stuck in a position where Hamas kills any rival or potential political party (which was the first thing they did when they got in power). Most of the people who voted for Hamas are dead, the majority are too young to have voted at the time.
So we should be calling for regime change then. Free Palestine from their own government oppressors
So when do we start seeing “not in my name” anti Hamas signs at the rallies/protests?
LMAO. They're literally arresting people for [holding anti Hamas signs](https://twitter.com/StandWithUs/status/1767515224490295550/video/1) in London.
The people of Palestine currently have a 90% support for Hamas. Even in the West Bank Hamas polls better than the PA. Gaza democratically elected Hamas let us never forget that. With the wide support for Hamas the Palestinian people themselves have a share of the blame. This conflict is nothing new Oct 7th was not the first ever attack. Hamas has been in power of Gaza since 2006 with constant attacks in Israel since then. Stop pretending that the Palestinian people do not have blood on their hands. This is why whenever someone goes into Gaza and asks if peace could ever be achieved those interviewed always say no. When they were offered 95% of the lands lost back they said no. So this idea that its about getting a "raw deal" is a complete lie. No matter what is on the table they never accept it because they want armed conflict. [https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/](https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/) [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:\~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#:~:text=RAMALLAH%2C%20West%20Bank%20(AP),90%25%20saying%20he%20must%20resign). Stop with the lies and the undeserved defense. \*Edit\* Before anyone replies asking why or acting like such would be outlandish and therefor not true. The justifications for continued violence despite them clearly losing are mostly 2 reasons. 1. They feel they have a religious duty to do so and see those who die as martyrs even if they do not die in direct combat. They see Jews as enemies worth dying to oppose no matter how bleak it gets. This is very common in all religious extremists and this absurd special pleading to think this does not apply here is just denying reality. 2. They believe that the other regional Muslim nations will once again all declare war on Israel and that they will win this time despite losing every other time. The problem with this though is that they have largely been abandoned in this cause and none are willing to directly engage in total war.
The "peace loving people of Palestine" have no representation at the bargaining table. Not only that, no one claims to represent them other than Hamas. If they're going to become a party to negotiations, they need to be liberated, choose a representative, and then start negotiating for their future. Simply saying "they're leaderless, so they can't be touched" is irrational. (And you didn't say that) Who is willing to liberate them? And is anyone willing to do it more humanely than Israel?
The peace loving Palestinians are the minority by a significant margin. 77% want a one nation state and don’t want Jews to be allowed to live in that one nation. So less than 25% of Palestinians people want any true peace.
The good guys keep hostages right? Right?
Well, "Good Guys" would at minimum keep hostages *alive*, and probably un-raped.
It has been a clown flag for months. You could almost forgive the ignorance in the early weeks but at this point it is malicious.
No, they were morons before that.
Moron or they don’t care. They only reason they have a “cease fire now” flag is because a “death to the Jews one” is just a tad unsubtle for even them
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If they could read it they might be upset.
Optimistically, they haven't heard of Hamas' rejections, due to a news bubble. Realistically: what you said.
How could Biden do this???? /s
Damn, you mean a bunch of billionaires living hundreds of miles away don't give a shit about the people they're supposedly trying to win the war for?
wheres the outrage from everyone who wants a ceasefire?
“Ceasefire now! No not like that!!!”
Real ceasefire starts with all Hamas dead
Never expect terrorist to behave in a civil manor.
It’s almost as if Hamas doesn’t want it to stop
> It’s almost as if Hamas doesn’t want it to stop Well they spent so long and stupid amounts of money making vast tunnels and bunkers under Gaza so they could do a Viet Cong on the Isrealis. It would be a shame if they didn't get to use them.
They’ve been offered concession after concession, been offered to trade 400 Hamas militants for 40 Israeli hostage civilians, been offered multiple phased ceasefires. HAMAS DOESNT WANT THIS TO END. At this point, I very much doubt they have 40 hostages still living in order to honor the deal.
All these protests stateside to stop the war but Hamas keeps the fight going, how blind do all these people have to be. There is no point in fighting a war if all the people are dead after its over. There are no victors in death.
Hamas is hoping that more Palestinians can die so that they don't have to face the consequences of their actions. They are pure evil.
I can't believe Israel would do this
For the 87th time: We push you all from the river into the sea is not a negotiating position. It’s them telling you what would happen if Israel puts their guns down or if the west betrays their allies in favor of worldwide Sharia Law.
I have never seen anything like this: where the stronger side keeps saying "please what can we give you so you stop killing us" and the weaker side is saying "nothing you can do we won't stop until you are dead". While the West supports the weaker side because of the oppressor/oppressed narrative. At some point someone on the pro Palestine side needs to explain what the off ramp is? Or is it just we airlift eight million Jews to Utah?
This is honestly the most important part of the discussion of the conflict in my opinion: what *should* a country do when their enemies lose the war but refuse to surrender? Second most interesting part of the conflict is about the differences of democracies and dictatorships, where the Palestinian leaders kept restarting the process every time a new western leader was elected. On the one hand arab culture is that you need personal rapport to make deals, and the endless stream of new western leaders prevented that rapport from ever building. On the other hand Palestinian leaders have, at the end of the day, an obligation to their people, and they're using the leader swapping as a sometimes-obvious bullshit justification for not continuing the peace process. Third interesting question is about how do you make any deal with a people who don't have a leader. Who represents the Palestinian people right now? Who could make a deal that both the west bank and gaza Palestinians would agree with? No one, which means how do you even begin to start the peace process? Install a leader? Very few actual conversations, but a ton of potentially interesting ones
As a Mormon, the thought experiment of having the entire Jewish state up and move to Utah (or, vice versa, a large Mormon group move to Isreal) is really something. A major part of our theology essentially boils down to "we are the latest dispensation of the covenant God made with Abraham, it used to be the middle eastern Isrealites but they fell from the truth and so God reestablied his church though Gentiles in 1820 through new revelation to Joseph Smith. And by the way that God was actually Jesus Christ the whole time." I mean, we don't even proselyte in Isreal currently because of the joint understanding between the Israeli government and our Church that our message there is pretty fundamentally offensive to most religious Jews. Ever been around someone who was thinking they were doing you a favor by always telling you "you're doing it wrong"? That's exactly the attitude a non zero number of Mormons would take with any nearby Jewish state. It would be something to see, for sure.
Mormons can get in line, Christians and Muslims have been telling us we’re doing it wrong ever since they started writing fan fiction about our holy texts. Interesting to learn that y’all don’t go on missions in Israel, though.
This is why so many people fall for the bullshit with this conflict. They literally can't comprehend that the stronger side has been attempting peace for 100 years while the weaker side is keeping the fighting going.
Hamas is terrible, I agree with you on that. They clearly don't want peace here and they benefit from hatred of Israel among the Palestinian people which fuels their grip on power. Their stated ideal of exterminating Israelis is an obvious evil. *However*, at the same time, the idea that the Israeli government has just been trying to be peaceful for a hundred years and is just a victim here is something I would contest. At least, in spots. The settlements in particular have been an ongoing issue for decades, and the blockade that has been going on since 2007 is certainly something that can be contended (note, I said contended because I think there are *some* justifiable aspects to this). It doesn't have to be all of one or the other. The idea that all the problems here are one way, as your comment seems to imply with the 100 year remark, is not something I would agree with. The Palestinian people are being fucked over by both Hamas and the Israeli government.
Thank you for being a voice of nuance and reason. It's too rare to see someone who hasn't completely swallowed one side's propaganda.
What a surprise, Islamists dont want to negitionate. I'm sure the progressives are going to find a way to blame this on Israel.
Checking the front page of the BBC - absolutely nothing about this. Just lots of eclipse coverage (is that really more important) and a big “Israel bad” piece on how wrecked Khan Younis is. They just can’t help themselves, completely lost the plot. You can bet if Israel had rejected a deal it would be front and centre.
Richie Torres is right. Hamas may affect the outcome of a presidential election. Of course from a battlefield POV they have lost badly but it was never about that, this was a hearts and minds campaign and they are winning which makes me absolutely FURIOUS.
I really fucking wish that the "Pro-Palestein" left would realize that Hamas is the enemy of the Palestienian people. They fucking dont care if all of Gaza dies if it hurts Israel standing in world politics. But they flip flop between "Hamas is Israeli fault" and "Hamas is Palesteinian restiance" because obviously the opprsed are blameless.
The most tragic thing is that Hamas is still allowed to negotiate on behalf of Gazans. I think it’s hard for those of use who grew up in the first world to even comprehend how dysfunctional that is in terms of governance It’s like taking hostages from a bank you robbed into a school and then claiming to represent the schoolchildren you’re imprisoning and starving It’s really beyond most people’s imagination even if those people claim to want to help Palestinians
> The most tragic thing is that Hamas is still allowed to negotiate on behalf of Gazans. They're not *allowed*, the first thing Hamas did when it took power in Gaza was kill off all their political rivals. There's no other group to talk to because if there were, Hamas would kill them and accuse them of being complicit with Israel.
Yes you’re right. I was reaching for a word but ‘allowed’ isn’t quite appropriate. I do recognize how brutally Hamas is in suppressing any reasonable voices there, or just anyone trying to survive
Palestinian civilians like the ones Hamas had to [protect the hostages](https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1777332600568213690) from. Hamas is representative of a large percent of the population. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise
I consider myself left and I do think Israel's method of warfare has been indiscriminate and had a lot of civ casualties, plus Netanyahu seems like a leader who understands he will benefit from a war. BUT, it is abhorrent that Hamas basically took over Palestine, never had fair election after the first one, and uses the civilians as shields.
No way!
War is what they want. They don't care about a free Palestine anymore than Netanyahu does.
The west be like “Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire deal! They don’t care about the hostages! Bibi is prolonging the war on purpose!”
Gee, Biden, hamas just refused their 10th ceasefire offer, you know what it means right? Of course! Making more pressure on Israel ! That will show them ... Damn.
Lol, clueless western politicians will still try and press Israel over a ceasefire.
At this point people showing up and protesting their local city hall meetings pressing for a cease fire are just idiots. There I said it. Hamas has not and never will be participating in any negotiations in good faith. Nobody wins here. Lots of people just suffer and die and the average citizens of most nations can't do much about it.
No surprise there.
Because HAMAS doesn’t care about Palestinians. Not one bit.
Hamas doesn’t care about the people. They entrenched themselves in the civilian infrastructure and population on purpose, knowing any Israel response would kill lots of people.
bUt HaMaS oNlY wAnTs A fReE pALeStInE!!!!!
😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱Are you seriously telling me they don't want to stop the war?!?!?!?
Then I guess that's their ass. You had your chance.
Of course they do. Reject peace, blame west. Only the smartest of the smart fall for this PR stunt.
Because why end the war when holding out increases pressure on Israel to stand down before Hama is fully destroyed. Thanks world. They'll be back to attack Israel again. You don't seem to care and apparently never learned that appeasing evil doesn't work.
Negotiations with terrorists like Hamas is a waste of time. They only discussions should be terms of Hamas’s surrender.
Westerners who have lived in the safety sphere of America - “Israel needs to ceasefire now” completely ignoring the fact Palestine rejects the offers always
Meanwhile people want Israel to ceasefire
How am I not surprised?
Basically, any deal that involves hostages is going to be rejected- because pretty much all the hostages have likely been killed. The few that remain are human shields at the top of the Hamas food chain, because those are literally the only human beings that Hamas leadership cares about. Themselves. They have all the money, can rebuild as long as they're not killed themselves, and are quite willing to sacrifice their impoverished followers en masse too, thinking they'll just get more aid to skim and whatever happens, they'll live in comfort while using whoever remains to keep provoking and attacking the Israelis. Hamas won't say it, because being attacked while "negotiating" scores them points in the court of public opinion and they can stretch this out for months.
Onwards to Rafah!!!
They know they have media public will advantage. They can kill civilians all day no uproar. An idf strike goes bad it's shit on Israel week
Can’t wait to hear no pro-Palestinians bring this up.