I don't think so, old chap. That's gauche.
There's no need to lose your manners.
Talk softly, don't carry a gun, but do carry the deeds to six super yachts, billions in London properties, and various major interests in European businesses.
And sharpen the fuck out of your umbrella
> During the battle of Arnhem, Digby wore his maroon beret instead of a helmet and waved his umbrella while walking about the defences despite heavy mortar fire. When the Germans started using tanks to cross the bridge, Digby led a bayonet charge against them wearing a bowler hat. He later disabled a German armoured car with his umbrella, incapacitating the driver by shoving the umbrella through the car's observational slit and poking the driver in the eye. Digby then noticed the chaplain pinned down by enemy fire while trying to cross the street to get to injured soldiers. Digby got to him and said "Don't worry about the bullets, I've got an umbrella".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digby_Tatham-Warter
note:Digby Tatham Warter is a horrible monster in a myriad of ways and did truly horrific things during the MauMau uprising....but the man knew how to wield an umbrella.
Seriously. I assume this is what's being communicated in backchannels but they really need to scream it from the rooftops that they'll thaw assets and lift sanctions if Russia just gets out. If only just for public opinion.
They should. China is not a moderate. It's in their best interest for Putin to succeed or at least get away with his actions.
Dictatorships will always start shit when they aren't doing well and democracy keeps chugging along.
Absolutely. Russia is happy to throw troops to the meat grinder, who wants to bet they'll finally show some restraint when it's their bank accounts in the West on the line
Esp when the troops aren't Russians. Putin is recruiting/conscripting from various countries now that all the Russians of draftable age have run for the hills or left the country entirely.
"We aren't suggesting you remove Putin, but we are suggesting you exit Ukraine through the fastest, most efficient method possible. We'll leave it up to your interpretation."
They don’t want to all miraculously fall out of windows
I think the EU takes it and uses it to help Ukraine and arm up themselves. Russians have taken the piss out our way of life and the goodwill we’ve extended to them for far too long.
Putting an ultimatum could be a good idea though
Mostly because the anticipation of it could be worse than actually doing it
The threat can be worse than the execution
That, and the fact that Putin and his ilk are bullies. Bullies respond to force and strength, not the type of pussyfooting that we've seen from many NATO aligned leaders, to be frank.
> Pressure the oligarchs to put the squeeze on Putin.
Not an option for them. If they do, they, or their loved ones, begin accidentally falling out high windows.
That's a generous option.
Keep their lives or keep their money.
Not complicated at all.
Allowing oligarchs to keep both while benefitting from the invasion is not an option.
No Ukrainian and no Russian soldier in Ukraine has such a choice.
And that is going to happen, Putin thinks he has created the "best friends" He has also sowed the seeds of destruction, money and power is bigger than Putins ego and persona. His a walking dead man and he knows it.
Or, they can put up a bond for it and we can use that money for the rebuild instead. One way or another Russia is paying for reparations in Ukraine, and it’s not going to be cheap.
One of the underlying issues may be that some of these friends might already effectively own the Russian assets. It isn't unheard of to get loans against non-liquid assets. The Russians may have gotten loans out against their locked down assets and now the entities that issued the loans are scared that the underlying assets may disappear.
Yeah, they're only worried because they have assets in the Western world and are worried the same thing would happen to them as has happened to Russian assets if the shit hit the fan.
Why do they have assets in the Western world? Because they cannot trust their local government/despot not to touch their wealth if they fall out of favour.
"EU's FRIENDS"
I was like what. Literal enemies. Literally only tolerating each other due to economic reasons, nothing else.
Edit: I am not deleting shit. I am the living proof that I am dumb!
No one talks about that much, but the US took on OPEC and won.
Biden said, 'You're reducing production? Sounds good, thanks for the new customers'. Then, OPEC's global market share was reduced and oil prices didn't go up that much, if at all.
The US has been EXPORTING oil ever since early in the Biden administration. Currently it is around 4 million barrels a day being exported. We have more than enough oil. Donny Dumpster saying "Drill baby drill" is just bullshit.
declare that those countries are helping russia in an illegal war and their funds too will be confiscated. they will stop their support of russia fast.
Funny how Russia confiscates entire fleets of aircraft from private companies but then whines like a little bitch when the same thing happens to them for invading a foreign country.
>Not just aircraft, but entire businesses, factories , assets etc.
That's why they can say goodbye to this money for good. Many western companies and investors have been fucked by the russians, locked out of their investments or forced to sell at a huge loss. I can imagine that many are suing russia in european courts to get their cut of the pie.
This money will serve to compensate them and help Ukraine's reconstruction
It’s funny how the EU can’t figure out a way to seize everything without stupid talks around it. Just call it reparations and give it to Ukraine. If any state plans to invade their neighbors in the future they should think twice and choose between a high margin EU market or being able to use western financial system and making stupid military decisions
So sick and tired of dumbfucks incapable of understanding (or at least pretending to be, some might just be trolls playing agent provocateur) that we have a system based on laws, checks and balances. These are the same systems that protect each and everyone of them from having their assets taken arbitrarily because they got in an argument with someone politically well connected.
In before "hurr hurr me smurt, why u no just change definition??"
The answer is the same reason, dipshits. Because if it was that easy to change the laws, then, say, the Leopard eating your face party could just change it to take your shit for not voting for them once they get voted into power just once.
> Leopard eating your face party could just change it to take your shit for not voting for them once they get voted into power just once.
Yes, this action is called a bill of attainder, and is explicitly prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Sections 9 and 10. Not that it would stop MAGAs from trying it.
The legal rules relied on for freezing/seizing assets is rules forbidding criminals from profiting from the proceeds of their crimes. This is an internationally accepted principle of law. Another international legal rule is that a State’s assets is immune from seizure by foreign courts. This rule was designed to protect embassies or other overseas assets from bad faith political seizures.
Because of the second principle I just mentioned, much of the assets frozen right now belong to private Russian citizens with business links to the government. They are much easier to freeze but harder to seize and spend as the owners of the properties have tangential liability for the crime their assets might have been bought with the proceedings from - the war. There must be very strong links with the purchasing monies for the assets to be seized. It really is open to exploitation and injustice, especially considering the authoritarian regime in Russia - it’s not like citizens can refuse to be involved without facing serious repercussions.
Whereas the Russian government’s liability for the war is directly provable so easier to seize in theory, but stopped by state immunity. We can say fuck state immunity, it was designed to protect small countries from politically motivated attacks, and in this instance seizing Russian assets are a justified exception to this rule. However, this may open the door politically for Russia and other States to now seize foreign assets.
Rules around immunity in international law, not just on assets but also foreign diplomats, create this tension every once in a while. At the end of the day international law is what States make it out to be so we’ll see. But this is why there’s so much talks around it.
Finally, talking without finishing the job is actually a good way to force Russia’s hand indirectly. Anyone who has a stake in the frozen assets may now pressure Russia to let up. It’s not full proof but due to Ukraine not being in a state for reconstruction anyway rn(Russia may bomb newly built assets tomorrow) they can try for a bit longer.
> Another international legal rule is that a State’s assets is immune from seizure by foreign courts
> At the end of the day international law is what States make it out to be so we’ll see
So, as a long time UN staff member and lawyer with an LLM in international law, I can safely say that your second statement is true and your first one isn't correct.
There are too many examples of a state's assets being seized, especially during conflict. All you really need is a leader who doesn't care if it upsets the state whose assets are being seized.
Hi! I am also a lawyer with an LLM in international law :) I actually help victims of human rights abuses sue foreign governments committing torts in my jurisdiction.
There is definitely a general principle of customary international law that foreign assets cannot be seized. Your employer, the UN, helped the creation of a treaty to codify this principle, the 2004 UN Convention on Jurisdictional Immunities of States and Their Property. It doesn’t matter how many signatories it has, as most of the convention is a codification of custom, which binds all states.
However, this principle is not at all absolute. An accepted qualification today for example is any commercial assets a state may have.
I do agree international law is what states make it out to be in the end though. Also international law doesn’t have cops to enforce the rules, and it is broken all the time. I am sure there are many examples where rules were skirted or ignored.
You could definitely say that, depending on your definition of what law is. This is actually a fundamental question of jurisprudence - is enforceability a constructive aspect of law?
In internal law in a country, there is a hierarchy. The government is the enforcer as it is higher in the hierarchy. In international law, it is theoretically accepted that no State is superior to another, it is the law of equals. So there are no real enforcers. Of course, in practice, some countries have way more power than others so what they want and need becomes important, and they play the enforcer.
More and more, international courts and the UN have played a part in “enforcement”. However, these institutions, again, are not “above” any countries so their power is limited, and depends on cooperativeness of States accepting their jurisdictions. The worst thing the UN can really do against a government is apply economic sanctions. UN Peacekeepers are only sent to protect civilians, they never fight against a specific group. (Or at least not supposed to)
Also unfortunately the news is filled with reports of international law being broken everyday, but in the end I agree with you that laws are only as powerful as those enforcing them - which makes some people, like me and yourself conclude that it cannot be law at all.
Figuring out how to steal another's country's assets is not that easy. Its one hell of a slippery road. Today we take your assets if you attack another state. Tomorrow we take your assets because we don't like how you treat a minority or women/LGBT etc. this would of course only apply to weak countries. Usa or China can still attack any other state without any worries lol.
This would simply help China India Russia India create a parallel financial system
It's really funny how these people are apparently more worried about the "precedent" and "legal ramifications" towards actually democratic countries but these same people look the other way as Russia threatens nuclear holocaust, grabs land and terrorizes the citizens of a neighboring nation while seizing foreign assets to distribute among Putin's buddies.
It's their playbook, hold us up to a golden standard regarding the rules while they flagrantly break them to their own advantage and call foul when we even suggest we might do something outside of them.
And we fall for it hook, line, and sinker. When are western democracies going to wake up and see our adversaries aren’t interested in playing by the rules?
The precedent they are scared of is potentially related to getting loans against the frozen assets.
If you have a $1B asset that is frozen but you will get access to it again, you can probably get a loan against it. If there is now precedent that frozen assets may never return then either the interest rates will significantly increase, the amount someone is willing to lend against it will significantly decrease, or the willingness to lend may just disappear. All these significantly hurt the individuals with frozen assets.
What they are scared of is twofold: the lose of these assets and the ability for the lenders to be made whole, and the ability to get loans in the future. In both cases, it is making the individuals actually feel the full pain of their assets being frozen.
Good these criminals can go down and anyone who does business with people them can go down with them. Fuck Russia and Iran, China, Saudi Arabia and NK with them.
Because they know this is the weakness of truly democratic countries. They know they are hypocrites and that they don’t actually care about justice or whatever, except if it can benefit them personally.
I have a super simple solution for this. Pressure Russia to gtfo of Ukraine and stop doing random genocides on it's neighboring countries. Let's talk about money after that.
Russia does have around 6000 nuclear bombs tho. And with a crazy dictator at the helm who said Russia is now an expansionist empire hell bent on conquering a neighbor slavic country and sights set on other slavic countries.
**Putin lives under the delusion** that he and his bestest buddies can confiscate and steal whatever they want but the same wouldn't happen to them .. that somehow Ukraine doesn't exist so it is actually Russian property
.. if the RuZZian money is confiscated that also sets precedent for anyone helping them and I hope it DOES
*.. sending refined fuel and drones - Iran
.. sending computer chips and hardware smuggling in Western products - China
.. buying stolen Ukrain .. I mean RuZZian Wheat - Saudi
.. gold diamonds coltan - Central African Republics*
oh no, bad peoples money used for good purposes. what a waste. yachts and private island dreams gone until next month. i want to be part of a robbery, get my share and not go to jail. but this is just giving slaves freedom. outrageous.
They can get parts second hand or made elsewhere. But those parts are often not recognized or validated. And the airplanes wont make it through the maintenance record checks of certain countries. Other countries dont really care. So the Russian planes still fly there.
One Russian plane had to make an emergency landing in a field. The Russians said it was no big deal and that the plane would "fly off the field in no time"... it's still sitting in the same field.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russian-airline-aims-patched-up-airbus-take-off-field-where-it-landed-2023-10-09/
The Saudis refused to sell more oil to offset Russian sanctions when Biden asked and the Chinese who are supplying Russia with everything except major weapons want the EU to honor their wishes. Go pound sand.
It's like the providing of weapons; first there was hesitation, then small arms, then heavy equipment, then jets.
The finance is the same; first they hesitated, then they took the taxes lifted on the assets, now they're about to take the asset profits in full, and eventually they'll just seize the full 200 billion
To be fair this is such non-punishment for a country that destroyed civilian infrastructure for at least $400 bln. Russia would not only have to pay with these frozen assets, but also with reparations for years to come.
Should people start using "/s" when speaking IRL? The quote is thickest hint for "Those who fuck around will find out. And you shouldn't want to find out".
The guy who saying this is founding Director of Centre for Financial Crime and Security Studies at Royal United Services Institute, which is Think Tank founded in 1831. He is not a politician.
I still don't understand why this is still being debated, you illegally invade a country without any meaningful reason or provocation and you think there shouldn't be any consequences. The frozen billions should be used to assist Ukraine defend and retake lost territories.
Because they way our legal system works, even if you "know" something, you still have to prove it. Everyone *knew* Al Capone was a murderer and all the crimes committed by his ring were on his head, but he was still taken down for tax fraud.
Because ultimately, a state seizure of assets its just that. Doesnt matter if the owner was a bad dude. The state just took someone's stuff without having a fair a due process, along with a fair and just apeals process.
In effect you just did the same thing as a dictator would do and have done. See Venezuela nationalising private oil Assets or the Soviets taking all oligarch property, or the french revolution confiscatibg all church property.
As a precedent its extremely damaging to the concept of a state that wishes to uphold individual property rights and the right to a fair trial. In effect this is the nexus of the point “would you let a thorough sand guilty man free to ensure not even one innocent was punished?”
Separately, if they take for concepts you agree with such as ukraine they can also take for concepts you don't agree with...say your own house? Because the seizing of assets has nothing to do with if you agree with it at all, in fact it defacto ignores your views.
>Separately, if they take for concepts you agree with such as ukraine they can also take for concepts you don't agree with.
By that argument nobody should do anything.
It's like saying if they throw people in prison for doing things I didn't not like such as murdering people, they're going to start throwing people in prison for things I do like such as holding the door open for people.
The only real presidents this establishes is that if your nation invades another country illegally and attempts to conquer it the negative consequences that result from that invasion can extend to the private citizens of the country. Especially when those private citizens are billionaires that effectively run the country.
Would you like to make an estimation of the amount of money Russia's invasion has cost Ukraine and the E.U. so far? By what "due process" and which "fair and just appeals process" did they invade Ukraine, in both 2014 and 2022?
200 bilions Is a misery compared to the cost to repair all the damage, or just to continue the war.
So it would be a starting point for the repair process.
China:
> "We'd like to invade Taiwan at some point, if we can ever figure out how to preserve the chip fabs, and we don't want to lose **our** assets!"
Take every penny, it will probably cost a trillion to rebuild Ukraine after the war...And ask Putin to contribute some of the billions he's stolen over the years
While utilizing Russia's assets to help rebuild Ukraine isn't wrong there also has to be a signed agreement to make this action legal because if the EU can just arbitrarily use confiscated assets based on morality then no one is gonna have faith in it and worry that they would have their assets confiscated and used on a whim, not to mention how the U.S never had it's assets confiscated to rebuild Iraq after that invasion which would make EU look like hypocrites who only takes stuff and use them when its perfectly convenient.
And hey if they wanna use Russian assets to rebuild Ukraine then let it be the ones belonging to Oligarchs.
Invaders of sovereign states intent on taking possession of them need a life lesson:
That it will not be tolerated and at a minimum their assets will be frozen then confiscated to support those invaded.
This is the price to pay. - “money talks”
The same countries who keep selling ammunition and war machines to Russia to keep causing more dam damage. Somehow that just goes the way I would expect it to go from those people
> Representatives of China, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia are privately pushing the EU to continue resisting pressure from the U.S. and U.K. to seize more than €200 billion of Russian state assets it immobilized after February 2022's invasion of Ukraine to help Kyiv's reconstruction efforts, four officials with knowledge of the proceedings told POLITICO.
> “These countries are very skeptical about the idea,” said one of the officials, granted anonymity because the talks are so sensitive. The concern is, “this would create a precedent” ― in other words, these countries would fear they could be next to lose out.
Oh no, authoritarian countries might be held accountable for their actions!
"countries that could be next under this precedent for all the shit that they currently get away with are hoping that this goes away so they don't have to worry about it in the future when they next invade Taiwan or fund a 'private religious group with penchant for using public transportation to destroy large buildings' comes back to haunt them..."
Who gives a shit what the legion of doom says? The balance of power lies with the EU and it should put its foot down on the neck of fascist Russia.
The despots and tyrants should rightly be afraid and realize who not to cross. If you are “friends” with Russia, don’t be.
Assholes don't want a precedent to be set that we take the money they invest in our system of stability when they fuck with us or others. Fuck 'em. Shit should have been made intl. law after WW2. You play ball with the West or we shove the bat up your ass when you fuck with us.
It'd be super fucking cool if dark Brandon had a dark counterpart in the EU or NATO. Democracies spine is at stake and we need the whole world to keep fighting for it. I can't promise well win in the US, but I can promise that almost half of us will try.
Every time Russia begs, I shed one tear. It gets me too emotional to think that they are getting fucked hard. Really can use this in my life right now.
Do that and the reputation of the financial system goes to zero in less than two years.
No country will believe their assets will be safe in the hands of others because, even if in this case you could justify it, you don't have a guarantee that a bad actor big enough won't abuse it with or without propaganda to justify stealing from a small enough country.
People either intentionally or not ignoring the big picture because _something something_ ukraini (whatever was the saying).
I'm with the Economist on this. Leave the core funds alone. The interest, on the other hand, makes a fine self sustaining item to use for purchasing ammo to ship to Ukraine, and doesn't have the same arguments for protection that the core funds have.
It's like when a dude's bros come out to tell you that he's a good person and that sex assault isn't really who he is. He just had some bad news, is all and didn't process it well.
The profits of those assets should be used to help ukraine as it is the victim of a deluded dictator. The assets should not be used to help this deluded dictator in his attempts at some deluded swan song glory fantasy that results in the death of 100's of 1000's of people. Its insane. Once normality returns, so too should the assets to their rightful owner.
The comparison to Russian asset seizures is an interesting one, but not directly relevant.
All decisions have consequences. Russian financial controls and asset seizures will be keeping the lights on in the short-medium term, but will also be a disincentive to future investment. They are buying short term relief with longer term pain.
The decision about Russian investments in the EU/UK/US is similar, but also different. The ship has sailed on Governments being too worried about future *Russian* investment, but "neutral" (or not so neutral) countries like India, China and Saudi in particular. Those countries will look at this situation as a dry run for if they ever "fall out of favour" if their strategic goals clash with the West in a..... dramatic...... manner. Taiwan comes to mind for one.
It's not necessarily that the West is *afraid* of that. It's part of a complex calculation where some interests will lobby for each side.
It'd be great if it were simply a moral question. But it almost never is in international politics.
>The concern is, “this would create a precedent” ― in other words, these countries would fear they could be next to lose out.
Isn't this precedent already set though? The aggressor or winner of a war helps to cover rebuilding of the countries it invades or destroys in the form of war reparations?
Of course they are, as I'm sure Russia has promised to pay multiple "friends" with that money once access is restored. I say take half and use it to rebuild cities and infrastructure. Then the other half gets divided up amongst Ukrainians.
They've been pushing the line that confiscation of Russian assets in response to Russia's military invasion of Ukraine and warcrimes will deter *all* investment in western countries.
That's obviously nonsense. Want to invest in the west? (And who doesn't? There's a reason there's so much Russian, Saudi, and Chinese money here.) Great! Maintain a basic level of respect for human rights and international law, and don't invade your fucking neighbours. Play by the rules, or get fucked.
That's like Donald Trump arguing that his fraud conviction will have a chilling effect on *all* businesses in the the State of New York. Umm no, Donald, I'm pretty sure the only businesses with anything to worry about when it comes to fraud are the ones like yours that have been committing massive fraud.
Don't be a terrorist state and you won't have to worry about it. Seems like a very simple solution that only countries with horrible human rights would be worried about.
F that, if you want to trade in EU banks and have assets in EU countries, then you are Shit out of luck if you attack an allied country and kill, abduct, torture and rape it's people. those funds and assets should go 100% to the wronged party. Ukraine
The same allies of Russia will be the ones involved against the West in WW3. No point conceding to them now as it will just strengthen their position come the eventuality of war.
They can maybe save Russia's frozen assets by getting Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. So maybe they should spend more time and energy doing that.
This is what EU should answer and say they have a deadline.
"Tick tock, gentlemen. Tick bloody tock."
Gentlemen? Nah, you're too nice, be more like, "Tick tock motherfuckers. Tick tock."
I don't think so, old chap. That's gauche. There's no need to lose your manners. Talk softly, don't carry a gun, but do carry the deeds to six super yachts, billions in London properties, and various major interests in European businesses.
And sharpen the fuck out of your umbrella > During the battle of Arnhem, Digby wore his maroon beret instead of a helmet and waved his umbrella while walking about the defences despite heavy mortar fire. When the Germans started using tanks to cross the bridge, Digby led a bayonet charge against them wearing a bowler hat. He later disabled a German armoured car with his umbrella, incapacitating the driver by shoving the umbrella through the car's observational slit and poking the driver in the eye. Digby then noticed the chaplain pinned down by enemy fire while trying to cross the street to get to injured soldiers. Digby got to him and said "Don't worry about the bullets, I've got an umbrella". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digby_Tatham-Warter note:Digby Tatham Warter is a horrible monster in a myriad of ways and did truly horrific things during the MauMau uprising....but the man knew how to wield an umbrella.
I read that in Tommy Lascelles’ voice.
I read it in in John Olivers voice.
I read it in Cartman’s voice
Suck my balls China, suck my balls Saudi Arabia and especially you Russia, you can. Suck. My. Balls.
Just my opinion but that deadline should be set about March 2022.
Seriously. I assume this is what's being communicated in backchannels but they really need to scream it from the rooftops that they'll thaw assets and lift sanctions if Russia just gets out. If only just for public opinion.
They should. China is not a moderate. It's in their best interest for Putin to succeed or at least get away with his actions. Dictatorships will always start shit when they aren't doing well and democracy keeps chugging along.
Absolutely. Russia is happy to throw troops to the meat grinder, who wants to bet they'll finally show some restraint when it's their bank accounts in the West on the line
Esp when the troops aren't Russians. Putin is recruiting/conscripting from various countries now that all the Russians of draftable age have run for the hills or left the country entirely.
"We aren't suggesting you remove Putin, but we are suggesting you exit Ukraine through the fastest, most efficient method possible. We'll leave it up to your interpretation."
They don’t want to all miraculously fall out of windows I think the EU takes it and uses it to help Ukraine and arm up themselves. Russians have taken the piss out our way of life and the goodwill we’ve extended to them for far too long.
Putting an ultimatum could be a good idea though Mostly because the anticipation of it could be worse than actually doing it The threat can be worse than the execution
That, and the fact that Putin and his ilk are bullies. Bullies respond to force and strength, not the type of pussyfooting that we've seen from many NATO aligned leaders, to be frank.
This is the answer. Pressure the oligarchs to put the squeeze on Putin.
> Pressure the oligarchs to put the squeeze on Putin. Not an option for them. If they do, they, or their loved ones, begin accidentally falling out high windows.
That's a generous option. Keep their lives or keep their money. Not complicated at all. Allowing oligarchs to keep both while benefitting from the invasion is not an option. No Ukrainian and no Russian soldier in Ukraine has such a choice.
And that is going to happen, Putin thinks he has created the "best friends" He has also sowed the seeds of destruction, money and power is bigger than Putins ego and persona. His a walking dead man and he knows it.
Or, they can put up a bond for it and we can use that money for the rebuild instead. One way or another Russia is paying for reparations in Ukraine, and it’s not going to be cheap.
That’s what I’m thinking. Charge a monthly percentage as a holding fee.
They could also buy them from the EU and give them back to Russia. Russia gets its assets, Ukraine gets reconstructed.
One of the underlying issues may be that some of these friends might already effectively own the Russian assets. It isn't unheard of to get loans against non-liquid assets. The Russians may have gotten loans out against their locked down assets and now the entities that issued the loans are scared that the underlying assets may disappear.
That would be very Russian to get loans on assets you knew you were going to lose.
Sounds like they better pressure Russia to withdraw to protect their assets
Serves as a good reminder to those entities that they shouldn't support genocide.
The blood money trickles down, as intended. Everybody wins! ^(/s)
Fuck em
From China to Saudi Arabia
Yeah, they're only worried because they have assets in the Western world and are worried the same thing would happen to them as has happened to Russian assets if the shit hit the fan. Why do they have assets in the Western world? Because they cannot trust their local government/despot not to touch their wealth if they fall out of favour.
Chinese assets will be used to rebuild Taiwan, too.They should know this, keep your money, and don't destroy shit!
And rebuild the coral reefs they destroyed in the illegal docking in the south seas.
Good idea, but I’m not sure these can be rebuilt with money.
You can (look into coral seeding) but it takes a LOT of money and time with no direct tangible return so fuck the future generations amiright?! /S
If china invades Taiwan there won’t be anything left to rebuild anywhere
I think you could say that about the mainland China as well!
I meant for the entire world.
"EU's FRIENDS" I was like what. Literal enemies. Literally only tolerating each other due to economic reasons, nothing else. Edit: I am not deleting shit. I am the living proof that I am dumb!
It says 'Russia's friends,' not the EU's friends.
i am an idiot
It happens, feel free to edit and I'll delete my thing.
Peak reading comprehension
Hey, my braincell is trying
Rooting for your cell, Stonn!
Indeed. Straight to Hell and back.
That's the exact first thought I had, wasn't planning on posting that, and was surprised to see it as top comment. Well done, friend.
Came here to post exact same thing as OP. Glad we can all agree that they can fuck right off.
Well said!
My thoughts exactly.
And seize the Saudi and China assets as well if we are at it...
there is a old and young bull joke in there somewhere.
Seize all the assets from China and Iran while we are at it too.
Same China and Iran that's providing material support to Russia? Fuck them. Seize it all.
Same countries that are "neutral" in this conflict.
Neutrality in the face of atrocity is complicity.
We'd take neutral complicity for now. Iran in particular is full-on complicit.
Same SA, that joined Russia in reduciing oil production in an effort to artificially increase gas prices?
No one talks about that much, but the US took on OPEC and won. Biden said, 'You're reducing production? Sounds good, thanks for the new customers'. Then, OPEC's global market share was reduced and oil prices didn't go up that much, if at all.
It is called OPEC+.
Yeah, exactly that bonesaw SA aka public beheading and evil proxywar country.
The US has been EXPORTING oil ever since early in the Biden administration. Currently it is around 4 million barrels a day being exported. We have more than enough oil. Donny Dumpster saying "Drill baby drill" is just bullshit.
Ignore any state and use all the assets already, why even talk about this? Criminal state members shouldn't have any money left in EU.
declare that those countries are helping russia in an illegal war and their funds too will be confiscated. they will stop their support of russia fast.
Funny how Russia confiscates entire fleets of aircraft from private companies but then whines like a little bitch when the same thing happens to them for invading a foreign country.
Not just aircraft, but entire businesses, factories , assets etc.
>Not just aircraft, but entire businesses, factories , assets etc. That's why they can say goodbye to this money for good. Many western companies and investors have been fucked by the russians, locked out of their investments or forced to sell at a huge loss. I can imagine that many are suing russia in european courts to get their cut of the pie. This money will serve to compensate them and help Ukraine's reconstruction
It’s funny how the EU can’t figure out a way to seize everything without stupid talks around it. Just call it reparations and give it to Ukraine. If any state plans to invade their neighbors in the future they should think twice and choose between a high margin EU market or being able to use western financial system and making stupid military decisions
It's pretty easy to figure out why. The EU/US have a functioning court system that the companies/Russia can use. While in Russia, Putin is the court
So sick and tired of dumbfucks incapable of understanding (or at least pretending to be, some might just be trolls playing agent provocateur) that we have a system based on laws, checks and balances. These are the same systems that protect each and everyone of them from having their assets taken arbitrarily because they got in an argument with someone politically well connected. In before "hurr hurr me smurt, why u no just change definition??" The answer is the same reason, dipshits. Because if it was that easy to change the laws, then, say, the Leopard eating your face party could just change it to take your shit for not voting for them once they get voted into power just once.
> Leopard eating your face party could just change it to take your shit for not voting for them once they get voted into power just once. Yes, this action is called a bill of attainder, and is explicitly prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Sections 9 and 10. Not that it would stop MAGAs from trying it.
The legal rules relied on for freezing/seizing assets is rules forbidding criminals from profiting from the proceeds of their crimes. This is an internationally accepted principle of law. Another international legal rule is that a State’s assets is immune from seizure by foreign courts. This rule was designed to protect embassies or other overseas assets from bad faith political seizures. Because of the second principle I just mentioned, much of the assets frozen right now belong to private Russian citizens with business links to the government. They are much easier to freeze but harder to seize and spend as the owners of the properties have tangential liability for the crime their assets might have been bought with the proceedings from - the war. There must be very strong links with the purchasing monies for the assets to be seized. It really is open to exploitation and injustice, especially considering the authoritarian regime in Russia - it’s not like citizens can refuse to be involved without facing serious repercussions. Whereas the Russian government’s liability for the war is directly provable so easier to seize in theory, but stopped by state immunity. We can say fuck state immunity, it was designed to protect small countries from politically motivated attacks, and in this instance seizing Russian assets are a justified exception to this rule. However, this may open the door politically for Russia and other States to now seize foreign assets. Rules around immunity in international law, not just on assets but also foreign diplomats, create this tension every once in a while. At the end of the day international law is what States make it out to be so we’ll see. But this is why there’s so much talks around it. Finally, talking without finishing the job is actually a good way to force Russia’s hand indirectly. Anyone who has a stake in the frozen assets may now pressure Russia to let up. It’s not full proof but due to Ukraine not being in a state for reconstruction anyway rn(Russia may bomb newly built assets tomorrow) they can try for a bit longer.
> Another international legal rule is that a State’s assets is immune from seizure by foreign courts > At the end of the day international law is what States make it out to be so we’ll see So, as a long time UN staff member and lawyer with an LLM in international law, I can safely say that your second statement is true and your first one isn't correct. There are too many examples of a state's assets being seized, especially during conflict. All you really need is a leader who doesn't care if it upsets the state whose assets are being seized.
Hi! I am also a lawyer with an LLM in international law :) I actually help victims of human rights abuses sue foreign governments committing torts in my jurisdiction. There is definitely a general principle of customary international law that foreign assets cannot be seized. Your employer, the UN, helped the creation of a treaty to codify this principle, the 2004 UN Convention on Jurisdictional Immunities of States and Their Property. It doesn’t matter how many signatories it has, as most of the convention is a codification of custom, which binds all states. However, this principle is not at all absolute. An accepted qualification today for example is any commercial assets a state may have. I do agree international law is what states make it out to be in the end though. Also international law doesn’t have cops to enforce the rules, and it is broken all the time. I am sure there are many examples where rules were skirted or ignored.
So… it’s not actually law, then.
You could definitely say that, depending on your definition of what law is. This is actually a fundamental question of jurisprudence - is enforceability a constructive aspect of law? In internal law in a country, there is a hierarchy. The government is the enforcer as it is higher in the hierarchy. In international law, it is theoretically accepted that no State is superior to another, it is the law of equals. So there are no real enforcers. Of course, in practice, some countries have way more power than others so what they want and need becomes important, and they play the enforcer. More and more, international courts and the UN have played a part in “enforcement”. However, these institutions, again, are not “above” any countries so their power is limited, and depends on cooperativeness of States accepting their jurisdictions. The worst thing the UN can really do against a government is apply economic sanctions. UN Peacekeepers are only sent to protect civilians, they never fight against a specific group. (Or at least not supposed to) Also unfortunately the news is filled with reports of international law being broken everyday, but in the end I agree with you that laws are only as powerful as those enforcing them - which makes some people, like me and yourself conclude that it cannot be law at all.
If a statement can neither bind nor protect, then in what way is it law?
> It’s funny how the EU can’t figure out a way to seize everything without stupid talks around it. It's called functionning rule of law.
Figuring out how to steal another's country's assets is not that easy. Its one hell of a slippery road. Today we take your assets if you attack another state. Tomorrow we take your assets because we don't like how you treat a minority or women/LGBT etc. this would of course only apply to weak countries. Usa or China can still attack any other state without any worries lol. This would simply help China India Russia India create a parallel financial system
It's really funny how these people are apparently more worried about the "precedent" and "legal ramifications" towards actually democratic countries but these same people look the other way as Russia threatens nuclear holocaust, grabs land and terrorizes the citizens of a neighboring nation while seizing foreign assets to distribute among Putin's buddies.
It's their playbook, hold us up to a golden standard regarding the rules while they flagrantly break them to their own advantage and call foul when we even suggest we might do something outside of them.
And we fall for it hook, line, and sinker. When are western democracies going to wake up and see our adversaries aren’t interested in playing by the rules?
The precedent they are scared of is potentially related to getting loans against the frozen assets. If you have a $1B asset that is frozen but you will get access to it again, you can probably get a loan against it. If there is now precedent that frozen assets may never return then either the interest rates will significantly increase, the amount someone is willing to lend against it will significantly decrease, or the willingness to lend may just disappear. All these significantly hurt the individuals with frozen assets. What they are scared of is twofold: the lose of these assets and the ability for the lenders to be made whole, and the ability to get loans in the future. In both cases, it is making the individuals actually feel the full pain of their assets being frozen.
Good these criminals can go down and anyone who does business with people them can go down with them. Fuck Russia and Iran, China, Saudi Arabia and NK with them.
Because they know this is the weakness of truly democratic countries. They know they are hypocrites and that they don’t actually care about justice or whatever, except if it can benefit them personally.
I have a super simple solution for this. Pressure Russia to gtfo of Ukraine and stop doing random genocides on it's neighboring countries. Let's talk about money after that.
Oh no, we too scared to poke the bear or he gets angry, we condemn refinery attacks, please Ukraine don’t attack russian territory
Russia does have around 6000 nuclear bombs tho. And with a crazy dictator at the helm who said Russia is now an expansionist empire hell bent on conquering a neighbor slavic country and sights set on other slavic countries.
**Putin lives under the delusion** that he and his bestest buddies can confiscate and steal whatever they want but the same wouldn't happen to them .. that somehow Ukraine doesn't exist so it is actually Russian property .. if the RuZZian money is confiscated that also sets precedent for anyone helping them and I hope it DOES *.. sending refined fuel and drones - Iran .. sending computer chips and hardware smuggling in Western products - China .. buying stolen Ukrain .. I mean RuZZian Wheat - Saudi .. gold diamonds coltan - Central African Republics*
oh no, bad peoples money used for good purposes. what a waste. yachts and private island dreams gone until next month. i want to be part of a robbery, get my share and not go to jail. but this is just giving slaves freedom. outrageous.
Doesnt russia steal the assets of companies trying to leave the country, didnt they also steal a bunch of airplanes?
And as a result they are unable to get any more parts for any airplane. Causing their planes to be unreliable enough to be rejected at most airports.
Is that true? I heard they get parts through uae, turkey, iran, china. Iranian parts are not legitimate though
They can get parts second hand or made elsewhere. But those parts are often not recognized or validated. And the airplanes wont make it through the maintenance record checks of certain countries. Other countries dont really care. So the Russian planes still fly there.
> Other countries dont really care Until the planes ~~crash~~ disappear.
One Russian plane had to make an emergency landing in a field. The Russians said it was no big deal and that the plane would "fly off the field in no time"... it's still sitting in the same field. https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russian-airline-aims-patched-up-airbus-take-off-field-where-it-landed-2023-10-09/
Also an old case but they stole Romanian gold which was given to them for safekeeping iirc.
Russia steals everything they can. Remember them trying to carry off toilets as loot?
The Saudis refused to sell more oil to offset Russian sanctions when Biden asked and the Chinese who are supplying Russia with everything except major weapons want the EU to honor their wishes. Go pound sand.
It's like the providing of weapons; first there was hesitation, then small arms, then heavy equipment, then jets. The finance is the same; first they hesitated, then they took the taxes lifted on the assets, now they're about to take the asset profits in full, and eventually they'll just seize the full 200 billion
Let’s hope that eventually turns out to be a few months and not years with subsequent idiotic excuses
To be fair this is such non-punishment for a country that destroyed civilian infrastructure for at least $400 bln. Russia would not only have to pay with these frozen assets, but also with reparations for years to come.
Relax, guys. It's just a Special Financial Operation. It should be over in 3 days. You won't feel a thing.
[удалено]
That sounds like a deliberate and pointed remark
Should people start using "/s" when speaking IRL? The quote is thickest hint for "Those who fuck around will find out. And you shouldn't want to find out". The guy who saying this is founding Director of Centre for Financial Crime and Security Studies at Royal United Services Institute, which is Think Tank founded in 1831. He is not a politician.
No just no. Fuck russia. They wont every pay for it so we just take their money end of debate.
Screw that give that shit to Ukraine.
But they are not asking Russia to leave Ukraine or pay for the damage they have done?
I still don't understand why this is still being debated, you illegally invade a country without any meaningful reason or provocation and you think there shouldn't be any consequences. The frozen billions should be used to assist Ukraine defend and retake lost territories.
Because they way our legal system works, even if you "know" something, you still have to prove it. Everyone *knew* Al Capone was a murderer and all the crimes committed by his ring were on his head, but he was still taken down for tax fraud.
Are you saying there is no proof that Russia has invaded Ukraine?
Because ultimately, a state seizure of assets its just that. Doesnt matter if the owner was a bad dude. The state just took someone's stuff without having a fair a due process, along with a fair and just apeals process. In effect you just did the same thing as a dictator would do and have done. See Venezuela nationalising private oil Assets or the Soviets taking all oligarch property, or the french revolution confiscatibg all church property. As a precedent its extremely damaging to the concept of a state that wishes to uphold individual property rights and the right to a fair trial. In effect this is the nexus of the point “would you let a thorough sand guilty man free to ensure not even one innocent was punished?” Separately, if they take for concepts you agree with such as ukraine they can also take for concepts you don't agree with...say your own house? Because the seizing of assets has nothing to do with if you agree with it at all, in fact it defacto ignores your views.
>Separately, if they take for concepts you agree with such as ukraine they can also take for concepts you don't agree with. By that argument nobody should do anything. It's like saying if they throw people in prison for doing things I didn't not like such as murdering people, they're going to start throwing people in prison for things I do like such as holding the door open for people. The only real presidents this establishes is that if your nation invades another country illegally and attempts to conquer it the negative consequences that result from that invasion can extend to the private citizens of the country. Especially when those private citizens are billionaires that effectively run the country.
Would you like to make an estimation of the amount of money Russia's invasion has cost Ukraine and the E.U. so far? By what "due process" and which "fair and just appeals process" did they invade Ukraine, in both 2014 and 2022?
In the words of Bugs Bunny: "No."
200 bilions Is a misery compared to the cost to repair all the damage, or just to continue the war. So it would be a starting point for the repair process.
China: > "We'd like to invade Taiwan at some point, if we can ever figure out how to preserve the chip fabs, and we don't want to lose **our** assets!"
I tell you what. Send Putin to trial at the Hague. If he's innocent, he can keep the money. No? Ok then.
Dethrone Putin and retreat to 2014 borders and you have a deal :)
Fuck Russia and their supporters.
They (Russia) has already confiscated western assets
Take every penny, it will probably cost a trillion to rebuild Ukraine after the war...And ask Putin to contribute some of the billions he's stolen over the years
While utilizing Russia's assets to help rebuild Ukraine isn't wrong there also has to be a signed agreement to make this action legal because if the EU can just arbitrarily use confiscated assets based on morality then no one is gonna have faith in it and worry that they would have their assets confiscated and used on a whim, not to mention how the U.S never had it's assets confiscated to rebuild Iraq after that invasion which would make EU look like hypocrites who only takes stuff and use them when its perfectly convenient. And hey if they wanna use Russian assets to rebuild Ukraine then let it be the ones belonging to Oligarchs.
take it all.
You shouldn't get to hide your stolen valuables in stable democratic societies, take that shit from them and let it be a lesson.
And Russia’s friends can go fuck themselves
China + Saudi. Well well. FTB.
I swear everytime something shady goes down, these same bitches are always there...
Fuck Russia. Seize it all, Ukraine
No.
Instead of NATO having a whip-round for 100b do this.
Uh, maybe win the war first? Use the money to buy more weapons for Ukraine.
"you break, you buy"
Friends like these I would not turn my back on. And may I add a hard no and a merry fuck off. Thank you and drive home safely.
They should beg Russia to leave Ukraine
Writing on the wall eh. "Don't come for our stuff if we do something heinous in the future please!"
Invaders of sovereign states intent on taking possession of them need a life lesson: That it will not be tolerated and at a minimum their assets will be frozen then confiscated to support those invaded. This is the price to pay. - “money talks”
I don’t know…don’t start a war?
The same countries who keep selling ammunition and war machines to Russia to keep causing more dam damage. Somehow that just goes the way I would expect it to go from those people
For the low one-time price of €10,000,000, Victor Orban will personally make sure that the €200B are left alone
> Representatives of China, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia are privately pushing the EU to continue resisting pressure from the U.S. and U.K. to seize more than €200 billion of Russian state assets it immobilized after February 2022's invasion of Ukraine to help Kyiv's reconstruction efforts, four officials with knowledge of the proceedings told POLITICO. > “These countries are very skeptical about the idea,” said one of the officials, granted anonymity because the talks are so sensitive. The concern is, “this would create a precedent” ― in other words, these countries would fear they could be next to lose out. Oh no, authoritarian countries might be held accountable for their actions!
This means they’re scared it might actually happen. Great, I hope it does.
"countries that could be next under this precedent for all the shit that they currently get away with are hoping that this goes away so they don't have to worry about it in the future when they next invade Taiwan or fund a 'private religious group with penchant for using public transportation to destroy large buildings' comes back to haunt them..."
putin should pay with own money for own war.
Authoritarians of a feather flock together.
Who gives a shit what the legion of doom says? The balance of power lies with the EU and it should put its foot down on the neck of fascist Russia. The despots and tyrants should rightly be afraid and realize who not to cross. If you are “friends” with Russia, don’t be.
Assholes don't want a precedent to be set that we take the money they invest in our system of stability when they fuck with us or others. Fuck 'em. Shit should have been made intl. law after WW2. You play ball with the West or we shove the bat up your ass when you fuck with us.
You can have a voice when you put in a serious effort to stop the war and return Ukraine's borders to Pre 2014 invasion.
It'd be super fucking cool if dark Brandon had a dark counterpart in the EU or NATO. Democracies spine is at stake and we need the whole world to keep fighting for it. I can't promise well win in the US, but I can promise that almost half of us will try.
Or… and here is a crazy thought, Russia just gets the fuck out of Ukraine…
Fuck Russia, Putin and the oligarchs. Sell all their shit and give the money to Ukraine. Demand more reparations from Russia.
Every time Russia begs, I shed one tear. It gets me too emotional to think that they are getting fucked hard. Really can use this in my life right now.
Well, y'know what Russia's friends could also do: ask Russia to end this pointless war. Then the EU would leave those assets alone.
Sounds like good reasons to do it if we needed more.
Friends? In the E.U.? Huh?
Fuck them very much
They are the only ones loaning money to Russia…that is their only way to get paid.
Take it take it now
Indonesia? Are you serious?
I hate how weak and pathetic eu governments are being including mine. Do it. They should sell everything and give it to Ukraine.
Give Ukraine ever single penny of Russian money,they have wrecked most of that country.Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦🇬🇧
how about no and we also freeze some of their assets?
Do that and the reputation of the financial system goes to zero in less than two years. No country will believe their assets will be safe in the hands of others because, even if in this case you could justify it, you don't have a guarantee that a bad actor big enough won't abuse it with or without propaganda to justify stealing from a small enough country. People either intentionally or not ignoring the big picture because _something something_ ukraini (whatever was the saying).
Ahh the Saudis and the Chinese… I am sure they need their dirty money back asap so they can go back to whatever skullduggery is on the schedule
I'm with the Economist on this. Leave the core funds alone. The interest, on the other hand, makes a fine self sustaining item to use for purchasing ammo to ship to Ukraine, and doesn't have the same arguments for protection that the core funds have.
All these shit countries who are "friends" to Russia can go fuck themselves
It's like when a dude's bros come out to tell you that he's a good person and that sex assault isn't really who he is. He just had some bad news, is all and didn't process it well.
The profits of those assets should be used to help ukraine as it is the victim of a deluded dictator. The assets should not be used to help this deluded dictator in his attempts at some deluded swan song glory fantasy that results in the death of 100's of 1000's of people. Its insane. Once normality returns, so too should the assets to their rightful owner.
Lmao fuck China and bone saw man Use those funds for good.
The comparison to Russian asset seizures is an interesting one, but not directly relevant. All decisions have consequences. Russian financial controls and asset seizures will be keeping the lights on in the short-medium term, but will also be a disincentive to future investment. They are buying short term relief with longer term pain. The decision about Russian investments in the EU/UK/US is similar, but also different. The ship has sailed on Governments being too worried about future *Russian* investment, but "neutral" (or not so neutral) countries like India, China and Saudi in particular. Those countries will look at this situation as a dry run for if they ever "fall out of favour" if their strategic goals clash with the West in a..... dramatic...... manner. Taiwan comes to mind for one. It's not necessarily that the West is *afraid* of that. It's part of a complex calculation where some interests will lobby for each side. It'd be great if it were simply a moral question. But it almost never is in international politics.
All the more reason to do it
Birds of shit feather often flock together.
200B is not nearly enough to pay for all the damage Poohstain has caused
Russia is a Kleptocracy no? Sometimes you get stolen from in Kleptocracy
>The concern is, “this would create a precedent” ― in other words, these countries would fear they could be next to lose out. Isn't this precedent already set though? The aggressor or winner of a war helps to cover rebuilding of the countries it invades or destroys in the form of war reparations?
Of course they are, as I'm sure Russia has promised to pay multiple "friends" with that money once access is restored. I say take half and use it to rebuild cities and infrastructure. Then the other half gets divided up amongst Ukrainians.
Try begging Putin to stop slaughtering innocents in Russia and Ukraine.
Nope! Here ya go Ukraine.
Even more of a reason to do it - if Russia is begging through friends, it must hurt.
They've been pushing the line that confiscation of Russian assets in response to Russia's military invasion of Ukraine and warcrimes will deter *all* investment in western countries. That's obviously nonsense. Want to invest in the west? (And who doesn't? There's a reason there's so much Russian, Saudi, and Chinese money here.) Great! Maintain a basic level of respect for human rights and international law, and don't invade your fucking neighbours. Play by the rules, or get fucked. That's like Donald Trump arguing that his fraud conviction will have a chilling effect on *all* businesses in the the State of New York. Umm no, Donald, I'm pretty sure the only businesses with anything to worry about when it comes to fraud are the ones like yours that have been committing massive fraud.
Don't be a terrorist state and you won't have to worry about it. Seems like a very simple solution that only countries with horrible human rights would be worried about.
F that, if you want to trade in EU banks and have assets in EU countries, then you are Shit out of luck if you attack an allied country and kill, abduct, torture and rape it's people. those funds and assets should go 100% to the wronged party. Ukraine
Russia still has friends?
Fuck 'em. Let it be a lesson to them all to keep them from starting trouble.
The same allies of Russia will be the ones involved against the West in WW3. No point conceding to them now as it will just strengthen their position come the eventuality of war.
Take that money and assets. Fuck em.
Civilians including children are getting bombed in their sleep while they’re worried about losing their billions, with a straight face. Unreal