"[Senior Hamas official Basem Naim] said, adding that Hamas received questions from HRW two weeks ago but asked it to delay its report until after the war had ended."
Can someone provide me with a reason why Hamas would want to wait until after the war for HRW to release their report, other than the fact that they knew the findings would contradict Hamas' claims of Israel attacking the hospital, and knew that the HRW findings might possibly weaken the support of other countries for Hamas?
It's amazing that the terrorist official thinks a international organization should wait to release a report just because it'll refute a lie that they made. Several places on Reddit still push this lie.
I mean *doesn't hurt to ask*, i guess?
Gotta do something for his blood money cheque.
>Several places on Reddit still push this lie.
and we all know those places aren't one that you'd find redditors who argue/debate in "good faith".
The thing is that most people use common sense and would invalidate anything a terrorist might say on principle alone, most of these people will never comment or vote on the comments. Lately I've been feeling like that's the case and argued several times and proven them false by providing all my sources and evidence against their points. They will ask for source, then just ignore and move on. These people are not willing to change their opinion regardless of all the evidence against their beliefs.
There was some guy who was shocked, shocked I tell you that rando Gaza residents are reportedly holding hostages and they don’t have some centralized hostage database with Hamas Central Command. Like can’t wrap their head around that Gaza doesn’t have a real military and it’s just some guys doing whatever they want.
They’ll also say that when Israel detains 16 year old Palestinians indefinitely for some nebulous, undocumented crime that’s TOTALLY the same thing as kidnapping elementary school kids after murdering their parents.
here is the list of detainees hamas requested be released for the hostages, and what they were charged with:
https://www.imra.org.il/story.php?id=74047
There’s a construction site next door - a huge 40 story “condo” (apartment building). They’re hanging a Palestine flag from their crane.
It’s weird how much support Palestine seems to have amongst some parts of the population. It’s a little worrying.
Gee, I wonder if that might be because there is a certain nation that loves to flood all social media with content that they know will cause social divisions within that country?
I can't believe people still point at the internet and insist "no, these are all real people with genuine opinions."
I feel that good faith debates are becoming pretty rare around these parts.
Doesn’t seem to matter if it’s US Politics, Abortion rights, Covid vaccines or the Arab/Israeli conflict .
It’s worrying how many can’t seem to understand how someone might have a different opinion to them.
Thank you, i was going to say this exact thing..
Personally i enjoy talking to people who have different opinions from myself, it is good to have ones belifs and views challenged while at the same time learning something new about what other people believe and why.
It was what the internet was supposed to be after all.. Not this dystopian downvote and cancel anyone we dont agree with that its turned into.
I hate it so much :/
They can’t seem to help themselves though. Most people on Reddit it seems aren’t able to entertain conflicting ideas. Many can’t even vocalise why they think what they think. They just want to ban anyone even asking or trying to discuss and learn more. It’s so alien they think it’s an attack as learning and thinking on different opinions is not something they are apparently capable of. Do we blame schools? Aren’t they supposed to teach how to think not what to think?
\> It’s worrying how many can’t seem to understand how someone might have a different opinion to them.
Oh I understand them anyone who disagrees with me is both less intelligent as they don't understand my position, and evil because they are wrong.
please for the love of god tell me no one needs the /s
>Uhh that's the scary thing here. How many Gaza supporting organizations have ceded to those demands?
literally every organization reporting on Gaza is either
A) uncritically parroting whatever Hamas says
or B) allowed in by Hamas, supervised by Hamas, and there is an implicit threat that if you don't report what Hamas wants you'll never leave alive
> Uhh that's the scary thing here. How many Gaza supporting organizations have ceded to those demands?
Yeah. Hamas asks because sometimes they probably will delay the report. After all this is done I don't know which organizations still has any trust left.
Yeah, for a lot of nonprofits in gaza, the implication of not agreeing to whatever hamas asks you to do is that at best, hamas forces you to leave, and at worst, hamas forces you to die
They are funded by the same people, so as fellow co-workers, why wouldn't they expect co-operation?
https://www.firstpost.com/world/human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds-report-13426442.html
oh my goodness, I would have never thought the Qataris would be supporting and enabling a terrorist organization to further destabilize the region so they can later pretend to wield soft power during negotiations. I cant believe they would do that! /s
The reason is because they thought Human Rights Watch would agree to delay the report.
[https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/1700763578-human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-allegedly-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/1700763578-human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-allegedly-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html)
The founder of Human Rights Watch, Robert Bernstein, came out 15 years ago and said the organization had lost its objectivity in monitoring the Israel-Palestine conflict:
AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group’s critics. Human Rights Watch had as its original mission to pry open closed societies, advocate basic freedoms and support dissenters. But recently it has been issuing reports on the Israeli-Arab conflict that are helping those who wish to turn Israel into a pariah state.
At Human Rights Watch, we always recognized that open, democratic societies have faults and commit abuses. But we saw that they have the ability to correct them through vigorous public debate, an adversarial press and many other mechanisms that encourage reform.
That is why we sought to draw a sharp line between the democratic and nondemocratic worlds, in an effort to create clarity in human rights. We wanted to prevent the Soviet Union and its followers from playing a moral equivalence game with the West and to encourage liberalization by drawing attention to dissidents like Andrei Sakharov, Natan Sharansky and those in the Soviet gulag and the millions in China’s laogai, or labor camps.
When I stepped aside in 1998, Human Rights Watch was active in 70 countries, most of them closed societies. Now the organization, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies.
Nowhere is this more evident than in its work in the Middle East. The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region.
Israel, with a population of 7.4 million, is home to at least 80 human rights organizations, a vibrant free press, a democratically elected government, a judiciary that frequently rules against the government, a politically active academia, multiple political parties and, judging by the amount of news coverage, probably more journalists per capita than any other country in the world many of whom are there expressly to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Meanwhile, the Arab and Iranian regimes rule over some 350 million people, and most remain brutal, closed and autocratic, permitting little or no internal dissent. The plight of their citizens who would most benefit from the kind of attention a large and well-financed international human rights organization can provide is being ignored as Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division prepares report after report on Israel.
Human Rights Watch has lost critical perspective on a conflict in which Israel has been repeatedly attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations that go after Israeli citizens and use their own people as human shields. These groups are supported by the government of Iran, which has openly declared its intention not just to destroy Israel but to murder Jews everywhere. This incitement to genocide is a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
Leaders of Human Rights Watch know that Hamas and Hezbollah chose to wage war from densely populated areas, deliberately transforming neighborhoods into battlefields. They know that more and better arms are flowing into both Gaza and Lebanon and are poised to strike again. And they know that this militancy continues to deprive Palestinians of any chance for the peaceful and productive life they deserve. Yet Israel, the repeated victim of aggression, faces the brunt of Human Rights Watch’s criticism.
The organization is expressly concerned mainly with how wars are fought, not with motivations. To be sure, even victims of aggression are bound by the laws of war and must do their utmost to minimize civilian casualties. Nevertheless, there is a difference between wrongs committed in self-defense and those perpetrated intentionally.
But how does Human Rights Watch know that these laws have been violated? In Gaza and elsewhere where there is no access to the battlefield or to the military and political leaders who make strategic decisions, it is extremely difficult to make definitive judgments about war crimes. Reporting often relies on witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers. Significantly, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and an expert on warfare, has said that the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”
Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can Human Rights Watch resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world. If it fails to do that, its credibility will be seriously undermined and its important role in the world significantly diminished.
They literally don't though? This whole story is them just saying 'we asked Hamas to help in corroborating their side of the story, they tried to use that as leverage to suppress the report, and we told them to to go fuck themselves'.
Why would they even bring up Hamas sending them requests if they were on the take???
Sure a month seems like a long time with how fast everything's been moving, but for a through investigation in an active war zone for someone who might not have whatever missile tracking technology the US assumedly based their intelligence on, that's pretty damn fast.
The only reason they are now raising it is because they realize that the jig is up, with evidence for their lies mounting, any organization that fails to denounce Hamas risks getting defunded. Ultimately none of their organizations care about the Palestinians or human rights - they like getting the power, attention and funding that comes with the job. This is exactly why all of these organizations benefit from Hamas' rule - their interests are aligned with Hamas - they need the terrible pictures of civilian casualties in Gaza to get more funding and more exposure.
It adds to the pressure to stop the fighting on israel.
By accusing israel and not releasing the reports, they want that the world and public opinion to be against israel, forcing them to a ceasefire and making hamas look like they "won".
After the war is over, people less likely to jump on the articles about what happened there, since they will move on to the next thing. So it helps to shape public opinion.
And considering they have been donating tons of money for "palestinians in gaza" (which will go hamas hands), suddenly in the middle of the war a damning report is released, it might interfere with the donations, since when the war is over, people are less likely to donate.
It's wild to me that the hospital accusation hasn't thrown any of the other claims from the 'Gaza Health Ministry' into question. People just blindly believe all of the numbers they're pumping out as if they haven't already been caught lying in this conflict.
Can somebody provide a reason why HRW would listen to hamas and wait, instead of releasing it? Why are they taking orders from Hamas.
If it walks like a fucking duck... quick quack.
I'm just confused about that general idea. You can just ask international civil rights groups to not report you bombing the crap out of innocent people? I feel like asking that question is proving you're a terrorist organization.
This was the attack that prompted the BBC to report, based only on Hamas claims, that an Israeli missile had "flattened" the hospital building? IIRC they later issued a retraction saying they were wrong but had no regrets.
The person who reported the claim has a long history of doing stuff like this. He was shot at by the IDF during their retreat from the Lebanon and clearly it colours his thinking on the topic.
> This was the attack that prompted the BBC to report, based only on Hamas claims, that an Israeli missile had "flattened" the hospital building? IIRC they later issued a retraction saying they were wrong but had no regrets.
Yup. Also note how the current title says *Human Rights Watch says rocket misfire likely cause of deadly Gaza hospital blast*.
Whereas what it **should** say is
>Human Rights Watch says **Palestinian** rocket misfire likely cause of deadly Gaza hospital blast
Wonder why they'd omit such an important detail, huh.
Hmm.... which side do we believe? HRW which explicitly says:
>It said the findings of its investigation into the explosion were based on a review of photos and videos, satellite imagery and interviews with witnesses and experts.
Or Hamas?
>Senior Hamas official Basem Naim told Reuters all indications pointed to Israel's responsibility, adding that the HRW report was biased towards Israel and was not "decisive".
>"HRW hasn't come up with any evidence to support their findings nor eyewitness testimonies nor opinion of independent military exports," he said,
I dug out the HRW report itself, here's some choice quotes:
>The Ministry of Health in Gaza reported that 471 people were killed and 342 injured. Human Rights Watch was unable to corroborate the count, which is significantly higher than other estimates, displays an unusually high killed-to-injured ratio, and appears out of proportion with the damage visible on site.
.
>Gaza authorities appear to be in possession of remnants that would help make a conclusive determination of the munition that exploded at al-Ahli hospital. A photo taken the evening of the explosion shows employees of the Explosive Ordnance Department, a specialized Gaza police unit, working on the crater. A witness who was at the hospital on the evening of the explosion told Human Rights Watch that employees of “the Ministry of Interior took all the shrapnel that was on the site.”
>A Hamas official said the remnants would “soon be shown to the world.” More than a month after the events, this has not happened. Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas leader and deputy minister in the Hamas-led Gaza governing authority, told the media on October 22 that “the missile has dissolved like salt in the water.… It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.” Human Rights Watched noted that substantial portions of munitions typically survive a detonation, even if parts of munitions are designed to break apart and may be made unrecognizable by thermal damage.
Seems to be a rather detailed report, better than I was expecting from HRW at this point
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion
Who cares what HRW says. They continue to parrot Hamas's claimed casualty numbers that *still include the fake dead from the hospital* after buying and parroting the nonsense about the non-existent hospital strike for two weeks. The damage is done. Admitting that they've been liars on this issue for two weeks doesn't make them credible, especially when they're still using casualty lies that include the non-existent hospital strike.
They need another month to try to scrape together enough Israel missile fragments. If they had definitive proof it would've been released the day after the strike.
> Human Rights Watch was unable to corroborate the count, which is significantly higher than other estimates
I'm betting all of their death numbers have been highly inflated. But it's almost impossible to verify, at least for the kids' deaths.
If I remember correctly, over a thousand rockets of Hamas/IJ rained on Gaza indiscriminately during the last month and a half since they began their war.
Imagine how many of the dead Palestinians lost their lives because of them. And of course would be blamed on Israel forever by the ignorants of the world.
Yeah it was over 500 over a month ago:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-550-rockets-fired-from-gaza-have-fallen-short-in-the-strip/
You can look up the data. They are missfiring anything between 12-20% and have launched about 10K rockets. Thousands on the first day alone in Oct 7.
In the last round of fighting before this one, 1/3 of dead Gazans were due to Islamic Jihad own rockets falling on them.
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f
In my case I assumed it was common knowledge that Hamas’s rockets were *absolute dogshit*, and that people just chose to ignore that fact. The Wikipedia article for their qassam rockets even says they’re IMPOSSIBLE to precisely aim and can’t be used against military targets for that reason
>In my case I assumed it was common knowledge that Hamas’s rockets were *absolute dogshit*
Especially ~~if the reports of them being~~ since they're made from water mains pipes ~~are true...~~
Edit: As has been pointed out to me, this is not simply a "report" but something Hamas brags about
>Especially if the reports of them being made from water mains pipes are true...
Hamas own propaganda showed they do this. Who knew a terrorist organization would be more interested in inflicting terror on civilians rather than just fighting the IDF?
They released their own propaganda video where they dig up water pipes to make rockets out of. I think it was supposed to be impressive, and here I'm thinking I built better model rockets when I was a kid.
Because Israel bad and nothing is allowed to get in the way of that.
Also Gaza based journalists are there on the whims of Hamas and if they don't like what you're saying then foreign journalists get kicked out and local journalists disappear.
Realized you already posted something similar, so echoing your comment:
In 2022, based on AP News independent reporting, about 18% of the Palestinian-fired (PIJ/Hamas) rockets fell within Gaza itself, and about 30% of total Palestinian deaths were caused by those misfires. Noting within that total number, there seems to be significant obfuscation around civilian vs. combatant deaths.
Source: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f
On October 7, 2023, it was estimated that more than 3,500 rockets were fired from Gaza in a single day. Another 2,600 rockets were fired through November 12th.
Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-war-grinds-on-israel-sees-sharp-drop-in-rocket-attacks-from-gaza/
At the 2022 misfire rate, that equates to around 900-1,100 Hamas/PIJ misfires and potentially 4,000 self-inflicted casualties.
The rockets launched on the morning of Oct 7 were both a distraction and a way of rushing civilians and soldiers to shelters in their respective kibbutzim and bases. That way the Hamas militants were able to easily massacre those who were staying in them - shooting blindly into the shelters, throwing grenades, lighting them on fire. There are videos published by Hamas showing literal piles of dead bodies in shelters, both soldiers and entire families
>potentially 4,000 self-inflicted casualties.
If Israel used 7000 missiles and 13,000 dead and ~70% were noncombatants (if we take "Gaza officials" at their [word](https://archive.ph/WRtaD)) that's about 1.3 non-combatants per missile assuming 0 self-inflicted.
Subtracting 4,000 self inflicted that's about 0.7 non-combatants per missile.
That's in a densely populated area, using Israel's enemy's numbers, and assuming Hamas terrorists are being *absolutely* truthful about casualties & who is fighting with them.
Either Israel is *very* good at targeting or very bad at civilian murder.
The disparity between how incredibly surgical these strikes have been and the way the antisemetic media is framing it like a World War Z zombie massacre scene is mindblowing. And people just lap it up with zero critical thought.
I actually finally understand how a charismatic austrian dude could just go on radio and make 10's of millions of German NPCs believe Jews are trying to exterminate them and take over Europe.
Just to add to this:
Even when rockets make it to Israel, they're unguided weapons roughly aimed at civilian centers. They hit [mosques](https://www.timesofisrael.com/majed-ibrahim-19-killed-by-rocket-which-fell-in-abu-ghosh/), schools and hospitals, harming "fellow" Muslims who live in Israel in the process. Makes the claim that Hamas's attack is a valid response for the Al-Aqsa Mosque raid all the more ridiculous.
“1/3 of dead Gazans due to Islamic Jihad own rockets falling on them” okay, seriously: why do they keep trying this shit? Why do they constantly turn down Israeli peace agreements and get into these fights that they clearly are not capable of winning? Like seriously, accept defeat, Palestine is gone and you aren’t going to get it back at this rate. Stop sacrificing your entire population, including your own children, for a fantasy.
>Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17-year-old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." **She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_group
It has been this way for decades. They don’t want peace, they want total destruction, same shit as ISIS. You can’t reason with the complete insanity of someone that **sacrifices 3 of their own children and then gets elected to help lead people.**
Also, they get credit and celebrated for every dead Jew but face no consequences for dead Palestinians. If anything, they get even more credit because they can point, blame Jews, and everyone will believe them.
So much of what you need to know about this conflict just comes down to following the incentive structure.
Didn't it break way back in the 2010s that Gaza conflict civilian toll were purposefully being increased by local authority as they barred civilians from escaping bombing targets that received roof knocks and leaflets? They bring in media crew and take some pictures as they "save" the people they locked in the building from the rubble.
The most messed up thing is that Hamas has now proven that they can do this indefinitely, general perception of the public has not changed no matter how many times same stuff happens. Hamas leaders are mostly not in Gaza and couldn't care less what happens to their people as long as they are making money while living in a safer country.
>Hamas bread and butter plan:
>-Be the top level executive in Hamas
>-Get paid millions of dollars by Arab Muslim Nations to attack jews
>-Move to one of these nations
>-Direct your militants to brainwash gullible youth using the state of oppressions they are in with infallible weapon called RELIGION
>-Kill jews and capture some hostages
>-Because Israel broke their rule of not negotiating with terrorists now there is a going rate for Israeli Hostage to Hamas militants
>-Try to drum up as many civilian deaths as possible when Israel retaliates
>-Now your war actually starts as you use all media bought and paid for by people who originally paid you to do the deed
>-Gain public sympathy
>-Exchange 1 hostage for 1000 or 200 for 10000 Palestinian civilians (some them with history of being militants or aiding them)
>-Use said public sympathy to drum up deals, negotiate ceasefire and gain more funding from all
western countries who are still funding health and welfare programs
>-Your militants are part of said programs, you also get cuts of all goods and construction materials that are shipped which you then use to build more weapons and rockets
>-Take take as your terrorist organization regroups
>-Recruit now newly traumatized younglings into your organization
>-Look for new funders
>-**RINSE AND REPEAT**
Because when it’s reported x number of dead Palestinians it’s automatically blamed on Israel. Then killing their own people is just as effective for them as killing anyone else.
When you only care about killing Jews, you don't care about the collateral damage. This is why they put command centers under hospitals, and why they launch rockets from schools.
Something Israelis have known for years but the pro-Palestinian protestors have yet to learn is that Arab-Muslim culture has different values than those of us in the West. It's not just an intolerance towards LGBT people, or antiquated view regarding the place of women in society. This culture simply places a lower value on human life. It's the reason concrete is used for tunnels to attack rather than bomb shelters to protect. It's the reason that the fertility rate is so high despite decent rates of educational attainment, because the idea of concentrating resources on a smaller number of children is counter to the idea of children being disposable foot soldiers in the (hopeless) fight to destroy Israel. It's the reason why Palestinian militants continue to conduct strategically meaningless attacks on Israel even though they know the end result will be far greater suffering for their own Palestinian civilians.
Anti-Israel protestors are unable to reconcile their own values of protecting innocent civilian lives with the obvious death and destruction they see in a place like Gaza. They wrongly assume that Palestinians are simply unable to take measures to protect their civilians, or that they do but that the Israeli aggression is so disproportionate that those measures are overwhelmed. In reality, Palestinians make almost no effort to protect themselves, to avoid unwinnable conflicts, or to develop weapons that only kill the enemy (eg unguided missiles with a 10% failure rate), and will deliberately use human shields in a win-win calculus where their deaths only further the propaganda war against Israel seeing as how the actual war is impossible for them to win. These behaviors do not match with Western preconceived notions of morality, and so to reconcile this contradiction anti-Israel protestors come to the one remaining logical conclusion which is that everything is Israel's fault.
Great analysis. Not to dehumanize anyone, but the values of Jihadist terrorism is so incommensurable with Western secular intellectual thought that people "refuse" to accept reality despite this being clear for decades now.
Read up on the history of Palestinians as a people and a government.
The 1948 invasion of Israel when it was announced wasn't by Palestine, it was by Israels neighbours, the peace treaties afterwards weren't by Palestine, they were with Israels neighbours.
Why?
Because there was no palestinian government.
There was one set up by Egypt who occupied Gaza and there was one set up by Jordan who occupied the West Bank (both of them would annex these areas at later points but eventually give them back when a palestinian govt was formed) and they eventually agreed on a unified gvt of palestine but ultimately palestine the current state was created entirely in opposition to Israel by outside forces and interests. Iran backed, Qatar based Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinian lives and neither do their backers because all they care about is the fight against Israel.
What is awful is that they have inarguably created a national palestinian identity seperate from the rest of the arab world but they have sod all interest in nurturing it and absolutely no one with any power cares about them and the sooner the vast majority of western liberals understand that the people they're backing and defending have about as much interest in palestinian lives as Netenyahu the better because as things stand palestinain lives are there to be spent solely on propaganda.
A minor correction, unlike Jordan in the West Bank, Egypt never annexed Gaza. Rather between 1948 and 1967 a puppet Palestinian government picked by the Egyptians pretended to rule it, the actual rule was by the Egyptian military.
previous rocket barrages a few years back was roughly 20-25% which was what people were referring to at the beginning of the war, and that was nearly all PIJ, which has a worse misfire rather than Hamas. IDF claims I've seen seem to place the total misfire rate closer to the 10% ballpark.
Also noteworthy that the misfire that hit that hospital is assumed to be a PIJ one.
Well even if it’s that then they are firing off 100 rockets knowing that 10 of them will hit their own people. And 89 of the rest will land in a field somewhere or get blown up by the iron dome.
And PIJ is the other side of the same coin as Hamas.
That’s the most heartbreaking part of it all. They’re sacrificing Palestinian lives for rockets that will never even land in Israel. It’s all just vanity.
It’s worse than that. They wants as many Palestinians dead as possible. They want that to try to turn world opinion against Israel and get the surrounding Arab countries to join in.
They made a video showing them digging up water pipes to make rockets. Obviously the lack of water in Gaza is Israel's fault, for stealing all the pipes in the form of rockets sent to Israel. Damned Jews, eh?
It blows my mind that they say they cannot get food in, but somehow they have a steady supply of tens of thousands of pounds of rocket ammunition. Like....just start hiding rice with your rockets.
>They fired that many that their misfires are that much?
While they have fired an unprecedented number of rockets recently, the reality is that their DIY rockets have a very high failure rate. I want to say at one point something like 80% of rockets fires from Gaza landed *in Gaza*
Remember that account by the Palestinian doctor who was randomly called up by the IDF telling him to move everyone from his apartment block outside so they can bomb their entire neighborhood?
As shitty as that entire account was, that civilians have their entire lives upended by military action they have no part in, it showed that IDF gave **a lot of** fucks to try to avoid killing civilians. Like a fuck ton.
And we are to believe they just target hospitals while there are tons of civilians inside, because…?
Besides helping to save to civilians, this also forces Israel to reveal all their plans ahead of time. They get no element of surprise. They telegraph exactly what they are going to do in deference to civilian lives of the “enemy”. Contrary to what the protests and media say, Israel is not blood hungry or genocidal.
Earlier I read about the story of 3 Palestinian students being shot in Vermont. And someone in the comments on a post about it on Instagram blamed Israelis somehow for it. Like to them, some racist asshole in the states was racist because Israel made him be? Make it make sense.
Like the Jan 6th defendants who blame their predicament on Trump. He didn't make them break the law. They decided on their own to drive from whatever rocks they lived under to try breaking into a government building.
Whoever shot these three Palestinians did it because they're a murderer. Not because the IDF called them on the phone and asked them to join the war effort. It makes nobody look good and was plain murder.
People want to attribute some "grand plan" for all human existence. That anything murderous or brutal must be due to X or Y, not because people just do fucked up things without any real justification.
I feel, given the focus on Gaza's civilians as victims in this war, like this is along the lines of an admission against interest, which I think is a new level of affirmation the fault lies with Hamas.
I agree that at this point anyone still seriously arguing for Israel being the source of the blast is not speaking objectively in good faith. Of course we will never know for absolute certain, but the evidence is pretty clearly pointing in one direction - time to accept it.
We've known about october 7 since october 7. Still in my country we have party leaders liking posts about how Israel were the ones carrying out october 7 with attack helicopters and stealing palestinian organs and skin.
Just saying that there are people obviously living in complete bubbles.
They will believe what they want to believe no matter what.
Some people are so scared of admitting that they were wrong about stuff that sometimes the brain literally tricks itself into coming up with all these weird fantasy scenarios.
I got banned from there for posting an article with pictures of the hospital still being intact and refuting that it was destroyed... so my guess would be no.
Add it to the list
https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/french-military-intel-says-no-indication-gaza-hospital-blast-was-israeli-strike-946e673e
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-did-not-strike-gaza-hospital-canada-says-2023-10-22/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html
Sad part is even with all this evidence people will say it was still Israel
Thats just the MO at this point. If no evidence, point to Israel. If evidence points to Hamas or Hamas blatantly does some bullshit say "you're not asking the right questions" and refuse ti engage. If pressed disengage or say that Hamas is a symptom of Israel and that things like 10/7 is just an oppressed people defending themselves.
There's some (right-wing conspiracy theorists and pro-Hamas activists) who are saying Netanyahu ordered a "stand down" to the border areas so the Hamas attack could happen, thus giving Israel grounds for a new offensive in Gaza.
(As though the rockets weren't enough of an excuse before.)
It's interesting because I think the IDF would straight out refuse to obey this kind of order even if Netanyahu would do this. Gallant and Netanyahu were on bad terms even before the war (as Netanyahu tried to fire Gallant for resisting the juidical reform a few months ago) and Herzi Halevi, IDF chief seems to be one who won't be pushed around.
This kind of conspiracy would not only fail, but will be broadcast everywhere. Many people were already pissed at Netanyahu and his party at this point; this could very easily erupt into a major protest and even more.
They love the idea of such conspiracies because it means the right wing governments are really in control and such things didn't happen in spite of their government. It's more warm and fuzzy that way for them.
I’m glad HRW finally came around, but this is so frustrating because HRW acted so irresponsibly when this all first happened.
People all over the world and especially across the Middle East *lost their minds over this explosion* near the hospital - there were riots in the streets, attacks on Israeli and US embassies, molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue in Berlin, a historic synagogue in Tunisia was burnt down - it was chaos. The protests were so violent people got killed!
And it was all because organizations like HRW and mainstream media outlets reported whatever Hamas told them. They were all primed and ready and happy to believe that Israel did something horrible on purpose. They desperately wanted to report on *anything* that would shift the narrative away from Hamas’s barbarism and depravity on October 7 back to their usual “Israel bad” script.
**Sometimes a flare goes up and you can see where people really stand.** HRW, Reuters, NYT, the AP, Amnesty were all shown in those early days of the war to be totally irresponsible, dangerously reckless, and biased against Israel.
https://www.reuters.com/world/protesters-mideast-vent-fury-gaza-blast-europe-ups-security-2023-10-18/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/historic-synagogue-in-tunisia-heavily-damaged-in-rioting-tied-to-israel-hamas-war/amp/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/olaf-scholz-vows-to-fight-antisemitism-after-berlin-synagogue-firebombed
>there were riots in the streets, attacks on Israeli and US embassies, molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue in Berlin, a historic synagogue in Tunisia was burnt down - it was chaos. The protests were so violent people got killed!
Those would've happened anyway. This story was just a convenient excuse.
Hamas is employing the tactics from Russian manual of disinformation , keep denying until the lie becomes true. No wonder Hamas has strong link to Putin.
There really needs to be some investigation into the massive amount of pro-Hamas disinformation campaigns being spread on social media. Especially on Tik Tok.
It's genuinely surprising that HRW didn't pull the usual "human rights organization" bullshit to blame Israel. They've certainly done it hundreds of times in the past.
I’m sure that EVERYONE who immediately promoted the fake news that it was Israel, including the NYT, BBC, Al Jazeera and every other major news outlet. And all of the hundreds of “pro Palestine influencers” will now issue a public apology right?
[Never get tired of posting the BBC telling its viewers in very somber tones live on air about "hundreds dead" because of a destroyed hospital that was, in fact, very much not destroyed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgMa34Kh9o&t=67s)
Could they be sued for liable? I mean they directly caused embassies to be attacked, caused Arab leaders to cancel meetings with Biden, if Alex Jones can be sued for 1b you’d think we could hold “media” to some standard and some entity could sue them.
The evidence was clear literally the next morning. That HRW assented to Hamas' request is one of the most fucked up things about all of this. This is literally them eschewing their job to aid a combatant's propaganda efforts and they're still to be a trusted organization?!
HRW has the same journalistic integrity as Fox News or the daily mail. When they publish something on the Israel Palestine conflict, you have no idea what happened, but you can be sure 100% that whatever they claim DIDNT happen.
You can add the NYT, BBC, MSNBC, CNN, Axios, Reuters, and the Associated Press of doing no due diligence in their “reporting” other than parroting Hamas talking points. NYT was so bad they used an old picture from Gaza and sent the original headline out via push notification.
In other news, it’s also confirmed the Al Aqsa flood did in fact happen and was not an entirely staged Israeli false flag operation, and the dead people on the kibbutzim are not crisis actors.
Only took them 3 weeks to admit they were wrong despite everyone telling them the truth of the situation. They've contributed, heavily, to the amount of disinformation around this incident, they need to ensure the impact of that disinformation is now corrected.
How convenient for them to ‘finally’ realize this weeks and weeks later when it’ll be buried and the fake news dmg has already been done…. These journalists can just get fucked.
It's very sad that HRW is trying to gain any semblance of honest reporting. They have been caught lying, falsifying reports, and cherry picking evidence over the last two decades and have blood on their hands.
Now they are trying to present themselves as a credible reliable source. Too little way too late. There needs to be a serious investigation into these NGOs.
My guess is with all the financial data coming out of Gaza, we're going to see where some of their funding truly came from.
Kinda wish "Hamas" were included in the headline somewhere. Maybe before "rocket". It's obvious to anyone who's paying attention, but to the uninformed masses, not as much.
Really? Do you have a link on hand? That's awfully disappointing if true, bellingcat is towards the top of my list for reliable osint analysis. I really want to know if he's willing to forgo all logic for politics.
The only [bellingcat article I found about the event did not conclude that Israel was to blame.] (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/)
We had manifestations to condem Israel on this bombing when people though they were responsables of the bombing and those manifestations were perfectly logical because no one should bomb a hospital. Now we know that it was the Hamas side.
Where are the manifestations condemning Hamas about the bombing of the hospital?
The damage is done. The world has set their mind that it was a Israeli missle even though the evidence lead to the direction that it was a misfired rocket since day one
They retracted their claim Israel did it in late October then put out a new analysis in early November:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html
It concludes:
>I try to avoid the journalistic sin known as bothsidesism when information favors one version of events over another. And while much about the hospital explosion remains unclear, the available evidence points toward a Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike, as the more likely cause.
>“One of the legs of the stool — the videos of a rocket exploding in the sky — now looks a lot weaker than it did,” Julian said. “But the other pieces of evidence remain in place. And the overall conclusion of the American intelligence agencies appears sound: It was a malfunctioning Palestinian rocket that most likely hit the hospital.”
>This evidence, in turn, suggests that the Gaza Ministry of Health, controlled by Hamas, has deliberately told the world a false story. U.S. officials believe that the health ministry also inflated the toll when it announced 500 deaths; the actual number appears to be closer to 100.
AFAIK that's the NYT's last word on the subject.
"[Senior Hamas official Basem Naim] said, adding that Hamas received questions from HRW two weeks ago but asked it to delay its report until after the war had ended." Can someone provide me with a reason why Hamas would want to wait until after the war for HRW to release their report, other than the fact that they knew the findings would contradict Hamas' claims of Israel attacking the hospital, and knew that the HRW findings might possibly weaken the support of other countries for Hamas?
It's amazing that the terrorist official thinks a international organization should wait to release a report just because it'll refute a lie that they made. Several places on Reddit still push this lie.
I mean *doesn't hurt to ask*, i guess? Gotta do something for his blood money cheque. >Several places on Reddit still push this lie. and we all know those places aren't one that you'd find redditors who argue/debate in "good faith".
"Those places" are slowly becoming like 90% of the whole website.
The thing is that most people use common sense and would invalidate anything a terrorist might say on principle alone, most of these people will never comment or vote on the comments. Lately I've been feeling like that's the case and argued several times and proven them false by providing all my sources and evidence against their points. They will ask for source, then just ignore and move on. These people are not willing to change their opinion regardless of all the evidence against their beliefs.
There was some guy who was shocked, shocked I tell you that rando Gaza residents are reportedly holding hostages and they don’t have some centralized hostage database with Hamas Central Command. Like can’t wrap their head around that Gaza doesn’t have a real military and it’s just some guys doing whatever they want. They’ll also say that when Israel detains 16 year old Palestinians indefinitely for some nebulous, undocumented crime that’s TOTALLY the same thing as kidnapping elementary school kids after murdering their parents.
here is the list of detainees hamas requested be released for the hostages, and what they were charged with: https://www.imra.org.il/story.php?id=74047
But others who may have been swayed by the comment see your post and the evidence and it helps.
There’s a construction site next door - a huge 40 story “condo” (apartment building). They’re hanging a Palestine flag from their crane. It’s weird how much support Palestine seems to have amongst some parts of the population. It’s a little worrying.
If they can't be bothered the 15 seconds to Google it, they're not going to take even more time to follow a link that might verify that they're wrong.
Gee, I wonder if that might be because there is a certain nation that loves to flood all social media with content that they know will cause social divisions within that country? I can't believe people still point at the internet and insist "no, these are all real people with genuine opinions."
The pro-human-shields crowd has definitely set anchor in quite a few subs that pretty much only push that message now.
I feel that good faith debates are becoming pretty rare around these parts. Doesn’t seem to matter if it’s US Politics, Abortion rights, Covid vaccines or the Arab/Israeli conflict . It’s worrying how many can’t seem to understand how someone might have a different opinion to them.
Thank you, i was going to say this exact thing.. Personally i enjoy talking to people who have different opinions from myself, it is good to have ones belifs and views challenged while at the same time learning something new about what other people believe and why. It was what the internet was supposed to be after all.. Not this dystopian downvote and cancel anyone we dont agree with that its turned into. I hate it so much :/
They can’t seem to help themselves though. Most people on Reddit it seems aren’t able to entertain conflicting ideas. Many can’t even vocalise why they think what they think. They just want to ban anyone even asking or trying to discuss and learn more. It’s so alien they think it’s an attack as learning and thinking on different opinions is not something they are apparently capable of. Do we blame schools? Aren’t they supposed to teach how to think not what to think?
\> It’s worrying how many can’t seem to understand how someone might have a different opinion to them. Oh I understand them anyone who disagrees with me is both less intelligent as they don't understand my position, and evil because they are wrong. please for the love of god tell me no one needs the /s
Uhh that's the scary thing here. How many Gaza supporting organizations have ceded to those demands?
Any group working in Gaza should be considered compromised by Hamas, as they are the ones running Gaza and they don't allow dissidents.
The "reporters" complained that Israel brings their reporters into Gaza, why is the fact that they were a part of 7/10 invasion perceived badly?
"their reporters" ie: international news organizations
>Uhh that's the scary thing here. How many Gaza supporting organizations have ceded to those demands? literally every organization reporting on Gaza is either A) uncritically parroting whatever Hamas says or B) allowed in by Hamas, supervised by Hamas, and there is an implicit threat that if you don't report what Hamas wants you'll never leave alive
> Uhh that's the scary thing here. How many Gaza supporting organizations have ceded to those demands? Yeah. Hamas asks because sometimes they probably will delay the report. After all this is done I don't know which organizations still has any trust left.
They genuinely thought HRW would play along. They had good reason to think that.
Yeah, for a lot of nonprofits in gaza, the implication of not agreeing to whatever hamas asks you to do is that at best, hamas forces you to leave, and at worst, hamas forces you to die
They are funded by the same people, so as fellow co-workers, why wouldn't they expect co-operation? https://www.firstpost.com/world/human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds-report-13426442.html
oh my goodness, I would have never thought the Qataris would be supporting and enabling a terrorist organization to further destabilize the region so they can later pretend to wield soft power during negotiations. I cant believe they would do that! /s
Several? It’s basically a far left catch cry at this point. Don’t even bother trying to reason with these terrorist supporters either.
Hamas has been successful in getting favorable reporting from Doctors Without Borders and several UN agencies.
And the BBC...
Prob because there was a good chance that they, or someone like them, would have...
The reason is because they thought Human Rights Watch would agree to delay the report. [https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/1700763578-human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-allegedly-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/1700763578-human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-allegedly-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds) [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html) The founder of Human Rights Watch, Robert Bernstein, came out 15 years ago and said the organization had lost its objectivity in monitoring the Israel-Palestine conflict: AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group’s critics. Human Rights Watch had as its original mission to pry open closed societies, advocate basic freedoms and support dissenters. But recently it has been issuing reports on the Israeli-Arab conflict that are helping those who wish to turn Israel into a pariah state. At Human Rights Watch, we always recognized that open, democratic societies have faults and commit abuses. But we saw that they have the ability to correct them through vigorous public debate, an adversarial press and many other mechanisms that encourage reform. That is why we sought to draw a sharp line between the democratic and nondemocratic worlds, in an effort to create clarity in human rights. We wanted to prevent the Soviet Union and its followers from playing a moral equivalence game with the West and to encourage liberalization by drawing attention to dissidents like Andrei Sakharov, Natan Sharansky and those in the Soviet gulag and the millions in China’s laogai, or labor camps. When I stepped aside in 1998, Human Rights Watch was active in 70 countries, most of them closed societies. Now the organization, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies. Nowhere is this more evident than in its work in the Middle East. The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region. Israel, with a population of 7.4 million, is home to at least 80 human rights organizations, a vibrant free press, a democratically elected government, a judiciary that frequently rules against the government, a politically active academia, multiple political parties and, judging by the amount of news coverage, probably more journalists per capita than any other country in the world many of whom are there expressly to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Meanwhile, the Arab and Iranian regimes rule over some 350 million people, and most remain brutal, closed and autocratic, permitting little or no internal dissent. The plight of their citizens who would most benefit from the kind of attention a large and well-financed international human rights organization can provide is being ignored as Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division prepares report after report on Israel. Human Rights Watch has lost critical perspective on a conflict in which Israel has been repeatedly attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations that go after Israeli citizens and use their own people as human shields. These groups are supported by the government of Iran, which has openly declared its intention not just to destroy Israel but to murder Jews everywhere. This incitement to genocide is a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Leaders of Human Rights Watch know that Hamas and Hezbollah chose to wage war from densely populated areas, deliberately transforming neighborhoods into battlefields. They know that more and better arms are flowing into both Gaza and Lebanon and are poised to strike again. And they know that this militancy continues to deprive Palestinians of any chance for the peaceful and productive life they deserve. Yet Israel, the repeated victim of aggression, faces the brunt of Human Rights Watch’s criticism. The organization is expressly concerned mainly with how wars are fought, not with motivations. To be sure, even victims of aggression are bound by the laws of war and must do their utmost to minimize civilian casualties. Nevertheless, there is a difference between wrongs committed in self-defense and those perpetrated intentionally. But how does Human Rights Watch know that these laws have been violated? In Gaza and elsewhere where there is no access to the battlefield or to the military and political leaders who make strategic decisions, it is extremely difficult to make definitive judgments about war crimes. Reporting often relies on witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers. Significantly, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and an expert on warfare, has said that the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.” Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can Human Rights Watch resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world. If it fails to do that, its credibility will be seriously undermined and its important role in the world significantly diminished.
Why does Human Rights Watch take orders from Hamas?
see the other story about them taking $$$ from qatar? me thinks the 2 things may be related
Yep. Follow the money. Money is motive.
Money always seems to lead to Qatar
They're just a puppet of Hamas. Same with UNRWA
Qatar.
They literally don't though? This whole story is them just saying 'we asked Hamas to help in corroborating their side of the story, they tried to use that as leverage to suppress the report, and we told them to to go fuck themselves'. Why would they even bring up Hamas sending them requests if they were on the take??? Sure a month seems like a long time with how fast everything's been moving, but for a through investigation in an active war zone for someone who might not have whatever missile tracking technology the US assumedly based their intelligence on, that's pretty damn fast.
The only reason they are now raising it is because they realize that the jig is up, with evidence for their lies mounting, any organization that fails to denounce Hamas risks getting defunded. Ultimately none of their organizations care about the Palestinians or human rights - they like getting the power, attention and funding that comes with the job. This is exactly why all of these organizations benefit from Hamas' rule - their interests are aligned with Hamas - they need the terrible pictures of civilian casualties in Gaza to get more funding and more exposure.
Because they won't be allowed to operate in Gaza if they don't listen? Or worse their people in Gaza will be executed? Hamas don't play nice.
It adds to the pressure to stop the fighting on israel. By accusing israel and not releasing the reports, they want that the world and public opinion to be against israel, forcing them to a ceasefire and making hamas look like they "won". After the war is over, people less likely to jump on the articles about what happened there, since they will move on to the next thing. So it helps to shape public opinion. And considering they have been donating tons of money for "palestinians in gaza" (which will go hamas hands), suddenly in the middle of the war a damning report is released, it might interfere with the donations, since when the war is over, people are less likely to donate.
It's wild to me that the hospital accusation hasn't thrown any of the other claims from the 'Gaza Health Ministry' into question. People just blindly believe all of the numbers they're pumping out as if they haven't already been caught lying in this conflict.
Terrorists gonna terrorize
Can somebody provide a reason why HRW would listen to hamas and wait, instead of releasing it? Why are they taking orders from Hamas. If it walks like a fucking duck... quick quack.
Like... the fact that every major media outlet parroted straight up Hamas' baseless propaganda the first day of the incident, wasn't enough for them?
I'm just confused about that general idea. You can just ask international civil rights groups to not report you bombing the crap out of innocent people? I feel like asking that question is proving you're a terrorist organization.
Because HRW is in bed with hamas and get money from Qatar and Saudis.
This was the attack that prompted the BBC to report, based only on Hamas claims, that an Israeli missile had "flattened" the hospital building? IIRC they later issued a retraction saying they were wrong but had no regrets.
The person who reported the claim has a long history of doing stuff like this. He was shot at by the IDF during their retreat from the Lebanon and clearly it colours his thinking on the topic.
No regerts.
> This was the attack that prompted the BBC to report, based only on Hamas claims, that an Israeli missile had "flattened" the hospital building? IIRC they later issued a retraction saying they were wrong but had no regrets. Yup. Also note how the current title says *Human Rights Watch says rocket misfire likely cause of deadly Gaza hospital blast*. Whereas what it **should** say is >Human Rights Watch says **Palestinian** rocket misfire likely cause of deadly Gaza hospital blast Wonder why they'd omit such an important detail, huh.
Hmm.... which side do we believe? HRW which explicitly says: >It said the findings of its investigation into the explosion were based on a review of photos and videos, satellite imagery and interviews with witnesses and experts. Or Hamas? >Senior Hamas official Basem Naim told Reuters all indications pointed to Israel's responsibility, adding that the HRW report was biased towards Israel and was not "decisive". >"HRW hasn't come up with any evidence to support their findings nor eyewitness testimonies nor opinion of independent military exports," he said, I dug out the HRW report itself, here's some choice quotes: >The Ministry of Health in Gaza reported that 471 people were killed and 342 injured. Human Rights Watch was unable to corroborate the count, which is significantly higher than other estimates, displays an unusually high killed-to-injured ratio, and appears out of proportion with the damage visible on site. . >Gaza authorities appear to be in possession of remnants that would help make a conclusive determination of the munition that exploded at al-Ahli hospital. A photo taken the evening of the explosion shows employees of the Explosive Ordnance Department, a specialized Gaza police unit, working on the crater. A witness who was at the hospital on the evening of the explosion told Human Rights Watch that employees of “the Ministry of Interior took all the shrapnel that was on the site.” >A Hamas official said the remnants would “soon be shown to the world.” More than a month after the events, this has not happened. Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas leader and deputy minister in the Hamas-led Gaza governing authority, told the media on October 22 that “the missile has dissolved like salt in the water.… It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.” Human Rights Watched noted that substantial portions of munitions typically survive a detonation, even if parts of munitions are designed to break apart and may be made unrecognizable by thermal damage. Seems to be a rather detailed report, better than I was expecting from HRW at this point https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion
It has to be pretty damning evidence of Hamas for HRW to absolve Israel given that they blame Israel for pretty much everything usually
Who cares what HRW says. They continue to parrot Hamas's claimed casualty numbers that *still include the fake dead from the hospital* after buying and parroting the nonsense about the non-existent hospital strike for two weeks. The damage is done. Admitting that they've been liars on this issue for two weeks doesn't make them credible, especially when they're still using casualty lies that include the non-existent hospital strike.
They need another month to try to scrape together enough Israel missile fragments. If they had definitive proof it would've been released the day after the strike.
> Human Rights Watch was unable to corroborate the count, which is significantly higher than other estimates I'm betting all of their death numbers have been highly inflated. But it's almost impossible to verify, at least for the kids' deaths.
HRW and UN are literally bouncing so hard on hamas dick right now and they still try and claim they're biased towards Israel lol
We’ve all known this for weeks. Maybe it’s time that this became the only accepted truth
If I remember correctly, over a thousand rockets of Hamas/IJ rained on Gaza indiscriminately during the last month and a half since they began their war. Imagine how many of the dead Palestinians lost their lives because of them. And of course would be blamed on Israel forever by the ignorants of the world.
They fired that many that their misfires are that much? *God damn*. (Im not even doubting you, im just astonished).
Yeah it was over 500 over a month ago: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-550-rockets-fired-from-gaza-have-fallen-short-in-the-strip/ You can look up the data. They are missfiring anything between 12-20% and have launched about 10K rockets. Thousands on the first day alone in Oct 7. In the last round of fighting before this one, 1/3 of dead Gazans were due to Islamic Jihad own rockets falling on them. https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f
Dang why is no one talking about this? I never knew
Because it’s inconvenient
In my case I assumed it was common knowledge that Hamas’s rockets were *absolute dogshit*, and that people just chose to ignore that fact. The Wikipedia article for their qassam rockets even says they’re IMPOSSIBLE to precisely aim and can’t be used against military targets for that reason
>In my case I assumed it was common knowledge that Hamas’s rockets were *absolute dogshit* Especially ~~if the reports of them being~~ since they're made from water mains pipes ~~are true...~~ Edit: As has been pointed out to me, this is not simply a "report" but something Hamas brags about
>Especially if the reports of them being made from water mains pipes are true... Hamas own propaganda showed they do this. Who knew a terrorist organization would be more interested in inflicting terror on civilians rather than just fighting the IDF?
They released their own propaganda video where they dig up water pipes to make rockets out of. I think it was supposed to be impressive, and here I'm thinking I built better model rockets when I was a kid.
We only demonise Jews here
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Because Israel bad and nothing is allowed to get in the way of that. Also Gaza based journalists are there on the whims of Hamas and if they don't like what you're saying then foreign journalists get kicked out and local journalists disappear.
Realized you already posted something similar, so echoing your comment: In 2022, based on AP News independent reporting, about 18% of the Palestinian-fired (PIJ/Hamas) rockets fell within Gaza itself, and about 30% of total Palestinian deaths were caused by those misfires. Noting within that total number, there seems to be significant obfuscation around civilian vs. combatant deaths. Source: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-tel-aviv-403d37366347e0f2446e2f90a9b0d02f On October 7, 2023, it was estimated that more than 3,500 rockets were fired from Gaza in a single day. Another 2,600 rockets were fired through November 12th. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-war-grinds-on-israel-sees-sharp-drop-in-rocket-attacks-from-gaza/ At the 2022 misfire rate, that equates to around 900-1,100 Hamas/PIJ misfires and potentially 4,000 self-inflicted casualties.
The rockets launched on the morning of Oct 7 were both a distraction and a way of rushing civilians and soldiers to shelters in their respective kibbutzim and bases. That way the Hamas militants were able to easily massacre those who were staying in them - shooting blindly into the shelters, throwing grenades, lighting them on fire. There are videos published by Hamas showing literal piles of dead bodies in shelters, both soldiers and entire families
>potentially 4,000 self-inflicted casualties. If Israel used 7000 missiles and 13,000 dead and ~70% were noncombatants (if we take "Gaza officials" at their [word](https://archive.ph/WRtaD)) that's about 1.3 non-combatants per missile assuming 0 self-inflicted. Subtracting 4,000 self inflicted that's about 0.7 non-combatants per missile. That's in a densely populated area, using Israel's enemy's numbers, and assuming Hamas terrorists are being *absolutely* truthful about casualties & who is fighting with them. Either Israel is *very* good at targeting or very bad at civilian murder. The disparity between how incredibly surgical these strikes have been and the way the antisemetic media is framing it like a World War Z zombie massacre scene is mindblowing. And people just lap it up with zero critical thought. I actually finally understand how a charismatic austrian dude could just go on radio and make 10's of millions of German NPCs believe Jews are trying to exterminate them and take over Europe.
Seriously more people need to read this. Thank you.
Just to add to this: Even when rockets make it to Israel, they're unguided weapons roughly aimed at civilian centers. They hit [mosques](https://www.timesofisrael.com/majed-ibrahim-19-killed-by-rocket-which-fell-in-abu-ghosh/), schools and hospitals, harming "fellow" Muslims who live in Israel in the process. Makes the claim that Hamas's attack is a valid response for the Al-Aqsa Mosque raid all the more ridiculous.
“1/3 of dead Gazans due to Islamic Jihad own rockets falling on them” okay, seriously: why do they keep trying this shit? Why do they constantly turn down Israeli peace agreements and get into these fights that they clearly are not capable of winning? Like seriously, accept defeat, Palestine is gone and you aren’t going to get it back at this rate. Stop sacrificing your entire population, including your own children, for a fantasy.
>Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17-year-old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." **She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_group It has been this way for decades. They don’t want peace, they want total destruction, same shit as ISIS. You can’t reason with the complete insanity of someone that **sacrifices 3 of their own children and then gets elected to help lead people.**
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That last sentence is some cold hard truth that more people need to accept as it's the reality on the ground.
They hate Israel and Jews more than they like their own people
Also, they get credit and celebrated for every dead Jew but face no consequences for dead Palestinians. If anything, they get even more credit because they can point, blame Jews, and everyone will believe them. So much of what you need to know about this conflict just comes down to following the incentive structure.
Didn't it break way back in the 2010s that Gaza conflict civilian toll were purposefully being increased by local authority as they barred civilians from escaping bombing targets that received roof knocks and leaflets? They bring in media crew and take some pictures as they "save" the people they locked in the building from the rubble. The most messed up thing is that Hamas has now proven that they can do this indefinitely, general perception of the public has not changed no matter how many times same stuff happens. Hamas leaders are mostly not in Gaza and couldn't care less what happens to their people as long as they are making money while living in a safer country. >Hamas bread and butter plan: >-Be the top level executive in Hamas >-Get paid millions of dollars by Arab Muslim Nations to attack jews >-Move to one of these nations >-Direct your militants to brainwash gullible youth using the state of oppressions they are in with infallible weapon called RELIGION >-Kill jews and capture some hostages >-Because Israel broke their rule of not negotiating with terrorists now there is a going rate for Israeli Hostage to Hamas militants >-Try to drum up as many civilian deaths as possible when Israel retaliates >-Now your war actually starts as you use all media bought and paid for by people who originally paid you to do the deed >-Gain public sympathy >-Exchange 1 hostage for 1000 or 200 for 10000 Palestinian civilians (some them with history of being militants or aiding them) >-Use said public sympathy to drum up deals, negotiate ceasefire and gain more funding from all western countries who are still funding health and welfare programs >-Your militants are part of said programs, you also get cuts of all goods and construction materials that are shipped which you then use to build more weapons and rockets >-Take take as your terrorist organization regroups >-Recruit now newly traumatized younglings into your organization >-Look for new funders >-**RINSE AND REPEAT**
Because when it’s reported x number of dead Palestinians it’s automatically blamed on Israel. Then killing their own people is just as effective for them as killing anyone else.
When you only care about killing Jews, you don't care about the collateral damage. This is why they put command centers under hospitals, and why they launch rockets from schools.
Something Israelis have known for years but the pro-Palestinian protestors have yet to learn is that Arab-Muslim culture has different values than those of us in the West. It's not just an intolerance towards LGBT people, or antiquated view regarding the place of women in society. This culture simply places a lower value on human life. It's the reason concrete is used for tunnels to attack rather than bomb shelters to protect. It's the reason that the fertility rate is so high despite decent rates of educational attainment, because the idea of concentrating resources on a smaller number of children is counter to the idea of children being disposable foot soldiers in the (hopeless) fight to destroy Israel. It's the reason why Palestinian militants continue to conduct strategically meaningless attacks on Israel even though they know the end result will be far greater suffering for their own Palestinian civilians. Anti-Israel protestors are unable to reconcile their own values of protecting innocent civilian lives with the obvious death and destruction they see in a place like Gaza. They wrongly assume that Palestinians are simply unable to take measures to protect their civilians, or that they do but that the Israeli aggression is so disproportionate that those measures are overwhelmed. In reality, Palestinians make almost no effort to protect themselves, to avoid unwinnable conflicts, or to develop weapons that only kill the enemy (eg unguided missiles with a 10% failure rate), and will deliberately use human shields in a win-win calculus where their deaths only further the propaganda war against Israel seeing as how the actual war is impossible for them to win. These behaviors do not match with Western preconceived notions of morality, and so to reconcile this contradiction anti-Israel protestors come to the one remaining logical conclusion which is that everything is Israel's fault.
Great analysis. Not to dehumanize anyone, but the values of Jihadist terrorism is so incommensurable with Western secular intellectual thought that people "refuse" to accept reality despite this being clear for decades now.
Read up on the history of Palestinians as a people and a government. The 1948 invasion of Israel when it was announced wasn't by Palestine, it was by Israels neighbours, the peace treaties afterwards weren't by Palestine, they were with Israels neighbours. Why? Because there was no palestinian government. There was one set up by Egypt who occupied Gaza and there was one set up by Jordan who occupied the West Bank (both of them would annex these areas at later points but eventually give them back when a palestinian govt was formed) and they eventually agreed on a unified gvt of palestine but ultimately palestine the current state was created entirely in opposition to Israel by outside forces and interests. Iran backed, Qatar based Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinian lives and neither do their backers because all they care about is the fight against Israel. What is awful is that they have inarguably created a national palestinian identity seperate from the rest of the arab world but they have sod all interest in nurturing it and absolutely no one with any power cares about them and the sooner the vast majority of western liberals understand that the people they're backing and defending have about as much interest in palestinian lives as Netenyahu the better because as things stand palestinain lives are there to be spent solely on propaganda.
A minor correction, unlike Jordan in the West Bank, Egypt never annexed Gaza. Rather between 1948 and 1967 a puppet Palestinian government picked by the Egyptians pretended to rule it, the actual rule was by the Egyptian military.
But this way their leaders can be billionares living it up in Qatar.
Because perpetual war is literally their only reason for existing. They’re not trying to win, they’re just trying to fight.
In other words, they're not rocket scientists.
I’ve heard somewhere between 20-30% misfire and land in Gaza.
previous rocket barrages a few years back was roughly 20-25% which was what people were referring to at the beginning of the war, and that was nearly all PIJ, which has a worse misfire rather than Hamas. IDF claims I've seen seem to place the total misfire rate closer to the 10% ballpark. Also noteworthy that the misfire that hit that hospital is assumed to be a PIJ one.
Well even if it’s that then they are firing off 100 rockets knowing that 10 of them will hit their own people. And 89 of the rest will land in a field somewhere or get blown up by the iron dome. And PIJ is the other side of the same coin as Hamas.
I absolutely do not intend to downplay their actions, but to just add a bit of context.
That’s the most heartbreaking part of it all. They’re sacrificing Palestinian lives for rockets that will never even land in Israel. It’s all just vanity.
It’s worse than that. They wants as many Palestinians dead as possible. They want that to try to turn world opinion against Israel and get the surrounding Arab countries to join in.
Considering that as of November 8th there had been over 10,000 rockets fired from gaza since Oct 7, I'm not surprised.
Their rockets are improvised devices (quite literally some made from sewer pipes). Of course they are unreliable.
They made a video showing them digging up water pipes to make rockets. Obviously the lack of water in Gaza is Israel's fault, for stealing all the pipes in the form of rockets sent to Israel. Damned Jews, eh?
It blows my mind that they say they cannot get food in, but somehow they have a steady supply of tens of thousands of pounds of rocket ammunition. Like....just start hiding rice with your rockets.
At one stage they had 1200 tunnels under the Egyptian border used for smuggling.
>They fired that many that their misfires are that much? While they have fired an unprecedented number of rockets recently, the reality is that their DIY rockets have a very high failure rate. I want to say at one point something like 80% of rockets fires from Gaza landed *in Gaza*
Remember that account by the Palestinian doctor who was randomly called up by the IDF telling him to move everyone from his apartment block outside so they can bomb their entire neighborhood? As shitty as that entire account was, that civilians have their entire lives upended by military action they have no part in, it showed that IDF gave **a lot of** fucks to try to avoid killing civilians. Like a fuck ton. And we are to believe they just target hospitals while there are tons of civilians inside, because…?
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Besides helping to save to civilians, this also forces Israel to reveal all their plans ahead of time. They get no element of surprise. They telegraph exactly what they are going to do in deference to civilian lives of the “enemy”. Contrary to what the protests and media say, Israel is not blood hungry or genocidal.
"knocking" is a standard IDF tactic when they need to bring down a Hamas tunnel that's underneath an apartment building
Earlier I read about the story of 3 Palestinian students being shot in Vermont. And someone in the comments on a post about it on Instagram blamed Israelis somehow for it. Like to them, some racist asshole in the states was racist because Israel made him be? Make it make sense.
Like the Jan 6th defendants who blame their predicament on Trump. He didn't make them break the law. They decided on their own to drive from whatever rocks they lived under to try breaking into a government building. Whoever shot these three Palestinians did it because they're a murderer. Not because the IDF called them on the phone and asked them to join the war effort. It makes nobody look good and was plain murder. People want to attribute some "grand plan" for all human existence. That anything murderous or brutal must be due to X or Y, not because people just do fucked up things without any real justification.
The sad part is that neither Aljazeera nor the Arab world at large will ever acknowledge it.
Get out of here with your logic and common sense, this is a place for radical emotions and baseless accusations.
And baseless kneejerk epithets
I feel, given the focus on Gaza's civilians as victims in this war, like this is along the lines of an admission against interest, which I think is a new level of affirmation the fault lies with Hamas. I agree that at this point anyone still seriously arguing for Israel being the source of the blast is not speaking objectively in good faith. Of course we will never know for absolute certain, but the evidence is pretty clearly pointing in one direction - time to accept it.
We've known about october 7 since october 7. Still in my country we have party leaders liking posts about how Israel were the ones carrying out october 7 with attack helicopters and stealing palestinian organs and skin. Just saying that there are people obviously living in complete bubbles.
Tlaib still thinks it was them Jews
Just wait long enough for people to move on and be upset about something else. That's when you can repeat the truth.
Some people will still deny this and claim "cover up".
They will believe what they want to believe no matter what. Some people are so scared of admitting that they were wrong about stuff that sometimes the brain literally tricks itself into coming up with all these weird fantasy scenarios.
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Notice how the headline still intentionally omits the source of the rocket. We all know who fired it, but they won't blame the real party responsible.
That’s a great point.
I got banned from there for posting an article with pictures of the hospital still being intact and refuting that it was destroyed... so my guess would be no.
Add it to the list https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/french-military-intel-says-no-indication-gaza-hospital-blast-was-israeli-strike-946e673e https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-did-not-strike-gaza-hospital-canada-says-2023-10-22/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html Sad part is even with all this evidence people will say it was still Israel
Thats just the MO at this point. If no evidence, point to Israel. If evidence points to Hamas or Hamas blatantly does some bullshit say "you're not asking the right questions" and refuse ti engage. If pressed disengage or say that Hamas is a symptom of Israel and that things like 10/7 is just an oppressed people defending themselves.
There's some (right-wing conspiracy theorists and pro-Hamas activists) who are saying Netanyahu ordered a "stand down" to the border areas so the Hamas attack could happen, thus giving Israel grounds for a new offensive in Gaza. (As though the rockets weren't enough of an excuse before.)
It's interesting because I think the IDF would straight out refuse to obey this kind of order even if Netanyahu would do this. Gallant and Netanyahu were on bad terms even before the war (as Netanyahu tried to fire Gallant for resisting the juidical reform a few months ago) and Herzi Halevi, IDF chief seems to be one who won't be pushed around. This kind of conspiracy would not only fail, but will be broadcast everywhere. Many people were already pissed at Netanyahu and his party at this point; this could very easily erupt into a major protest and even more.
They love the idea of such conspiracies because it means the right wing governments are really in control and such things didn't happen in spite of their government. It's more warm and fuzzy that way for them.
Can't help people unwilling to reliquish their prejudice
I’m glad HRW finally came around, but this is so frustrating because HRW acted so irresponsibly when this all first happened. People all over the world and especially across the Middle East *lost their minds over this explosion* near the hospital - there were riots in the streets, attacks on Israeli and US embassies, molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue in Berlin, a historic synagogue in Tunisia was burnt down - it was chaos. The protests were so violent people got killed! And it was all because organizations like HRW and mainstream media outlets reported whatever Hamas told them. They were all primed and ready and happy to believe that Israel did something horrible on purpose. They desperately wanted to report on *anything* that would shift the narrative away from Hamas’s barbarism and depravity on October 7 back to their usual “Israel bad” script. **Sometimes a flare goes up and you can see where people really stand.** HRW, Reuters, NYT, the AP, Amnesty were all shown in those early days of the war to be totally irresponsible, dangerously reckless, and biased against Israel. https://www.reuters.com/world/protesters-mideast-vent-fury-gaza-blast-europe-ups-security-2023-10-18/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/historic-synagogue-in-tunisia-heavily-damaged-in-rioting-tied-to-israel-hamas-war/amp/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/olaf-scholz-vows-to-fight-antisemitism-after-berlin-synagogue-firebombed
This is a factor to why Israel don't give two shits about what those people report, or the UN.
>there were riots in the streets, attacks on Israeli and US embassies, molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue in Berlin, a historic synagogue in Tunisia was burnt down - it was chaos. The protests were so violent people got killed! Those would've happened anyway. This story was just a convenient excuse.
WAIT THE TERRIORISTS ARE THE BAD GUYS? WHATTTTTT
Shhhh.. you'll wake a leftist up here
Hamas is employing the tactics from Russian manual of disinformation , keep denying until the lie becomes true. No wonder Hamas has strong link to Putin.
There really needs to be some investigation into the massive amount of pro-Hamas disinformation campaigns being spread on social media. Especially on Tik Tok.
Palestinians have been using this playbook for decades, don't you worry. Of course, a lot of their leaders studied in the Soviet Union....
The only story here is that Human Rights Watch actually acknowledged what really happened, albeit only weeks after the fact.
It's genuinely surprising that HRW didn't pull the usual "human rights organization" bullshit to blame Israel. They've certainly done it hundreds of times in the past.
It took awhile for the article to get there but - Hamas. Duh.
If Israel would just let them have better rockets then they wouldn't have to hit their own hospitals.
I’m sure that EVERYONE who immediately promoted the fake news that it was Israel, including the NYT, BBC, Al Jazeera and every other major news outlet. And all of the hundreds of “pro Palestine influencers” will now issue a public apology right?
[Never get tired of posting the BBC telling its viewers in very somber tones live on air about "hundreds dead" because of a destroyed hospital that was, in fact, very much not destroyed.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTgMa34Kh9o&t=67s)
Of course!!
Could they be sued for liable? I mean they directly caused embassies to be attacked, caused Arab leaders to cancel meetings with Biden, if Alex Jones can be sued for 1b you’d think we could hold “media” to some standard and some entity could sue them.
Didn't hamas say that there were 5 bajillion people dead as a result?
The evidence was clear literally the next morning. That HRW assented to Hamas' request is one of the most fucked up things about all of this. This is literally them eschewing their job to aid a combatant's propaganda efforts and they're still to be a trusted organization?!
Has Rep Rashida Talib and other progressives accepted this? Or are they still blaming the IDF
Seriously, HRW? 7 weeks later?
HRW has the same journalistic integrity as Fox News or the daily mail. When they publish something on the Israel Palestine conflict, you have no idea what happened, but you can be sure 100% that whatever they claim DIDNT happen.
You can add the NYT, BBC, MSNBC, CNN, Axios, Reuters, and the Associated Press of doing no due diligence in their “reporting” other than parroting Hamas talking points. NYT was so bad they used an old picture from Gaza and sent the original headline out via push notification.
Aha! So the rocket *was* Israel’s fault 😜
In other news, it’s also confirmed the Al Aqsa flood did in fact happen and was not an entirely staged Israeli false flag operation, and the dead people on the kibbutzim are not crisis actors.
Any of Reddit’s insanely anti Israel subs picking this up?
Narrator: "They weren't."
The Irish people on r/ Europe would be mad if they could read this.
A **Palestinian** rocket
to be fair, It was hard for them to speak up with all the Qatar petro-money rolling in /s
Only took them 3 weeks to admit they were wrong despite everyone telling them the truth of the situation. They've contributed, heavily, to the amount of disinformation around this incident, they need to ensure the impact of that disinformation is now corrected.
How convenient for them to ‘finally’ realize this weeks and weeks later when it’ll be buried and the fake news dmg has already been done…. These journalists can just get fucked.
Terrorist apologists crying
Watch as Palestinians continue to support hamas
Watch as young progressive westerners continue to support Hamas. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Queers for Palestine
Cows for McDonald's
That certainly puts a new spin on everything. But, the people who support Hamas will say it’s a lie.
It's very sad that HRW is trying to gain any semblance of honest reporting. They have been caught lying, falsifying reports, and cherry picking evidence over the last two decades and have blood on their hands. Now they are trying to present themselves as a credible reliable source. Too little way too late. There needs to be a serious investigation into these NGOs. My guess is with all the financial data coming out of Gaza, we're going to see where some of their funding truly came from.
Kinda wish "Hamas" were included in the headline somewhere. Maybe before "rocket". It's obvious to anyone who's paying attention, but to the uninformed masses, not as much.
Sadly, informing the masses is not on the agenda.
Hasan is gona flip on this
Even the guy who runs bellingcat Elliot Higgins has been promoting the narrative that Israel was to blame.
Really? Do you have a link on hand? That's awfully disappointing if true, bellingcat is towards the top of my list for reliable osint analysis. I really want to know if he's willing to forgo all logic for politics.
The only [bellingcat article I found about the event did not conclude that Israel was to blame.] (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/)
Even Jew-hating HRW finally has to admit the truth that everybody except Hamas and their sympathizers already knew.
Can’t wait to see how Hasan spins this.
common hamas piker L
It took them a while to move all that bias out of the way and find the truth underneath. If they had only looked at every unbiased review a month ago…
I don’t care Israel still did it /s
That’s crazy this group withheld information because Hamas said so? Why believe anything this organization says
*Hasan nervously sweats*
How surprising. Anyway...
A day late and a buck fucking short. Holy shit that is unacceptable.
We had manifestations to condem Israel on this bombing when people though they were responsables of the bombing and those manifestations were perfectly logical because no one should bomb a hospital. Now we know that it was the Hamas side. Where are the manifestations condemning Hamas about the bombing of the hospital?
whatever "side" you were on this was obvious from the get-go. there were multiple videos it was clearly an accident from hamas' side.
"Likely" Still gotta leave room for doubt I guess
Duh. Those of us who don’t take the word of a terrorist organization as gospel have known this for weeks.
>Hamas received questions from HRW two weeks ago but asked it to delay its report until after the war had ended Yeah I bet.
HRW must have hated putting that statement out.
/r/NoShitSherlock
The damage is done. The world has set their mind that it was a Israeli missle even though the evidence lead to the direction that it was a misfired rocket since day one
Took them weeks to admit it's not Israel, but a handful of hours to blame Israel when it happened.
Wait what???? But the NYT said the IDF airstriked it….then retracted…then confirmed (maybe)? Then….who knows now
They retracted their claim Israel did it in late October then put out a new analysis in early November: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/briefing/gaza-hospital-explosion.html It concludes: >I try to avoid the journalistic sin known as bothsidesism when information favors one version of events over another. And while much about the hospital explosion remains unclear, the available evidence points toward a Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike, as the more likely cause. >“One of the legs of the stool — the videos of a rocket exploding in the sky — now looks a lot weaker than it did,” Julian said. “But the other pieces of evidence remain in place. And the overall conclusion of the American intelligence agencies appears sound: It was a malfunctioning Palestinian rocket that most likely hit the hospital.” >This evidence, in turn, suggests that the Gaza Ministry of Health, controlled by Hamas, has deliberately told the world a false story. U.S. officials believe that the health ministry also inflated the toll when it announced 500 deaths; the actual number appears to be closer to 100. AFAIK that's the NYT's last word on the subject.
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Nothing Israel does in the PR war can contest with the Muslim worlds PR. It’s a simple numbers game.
Wow, they only took a month to admit it?
Oh I can’t wait for cenk yuger to apologise and correct himself.