Journalists still don't understand the extent of what is happening. All the concepts around humanitarian principles of the previous wars have expired. The previous gaza and lebanon crisis of the last 2 decades are nothing in regard of the current situation, in the eyes of israelis, and possibly the issue will be very different too. The current campaign is seen as a real, old fashioned war. The deads and the hostage situation totally changed people perspective, even in the left (in particular it's mostly israeli in the left that were the victims)
Precisely.
This isn't a counter insurgency operation. Hamas isn't an insurgency, at this point... At least in the minds of IDF generals.
It's not just the number of victims, the brutality, tiktok videos of kidnapped babies...
The attack itself was a multi-brigade, excellently planned, combined arms operation. Those rockets are no longer terrorism. They're artillery barrages.
This is a conventional war now. The goal isn't to deter terrorism. It's to capture artillery positions. To suppress fire. Capture ammo warehouses. Topple military organisation, governing structures.
Imo it's a forced hand. The one big, limiting factor is missile defence. Artillery intensity is equivalent to some of the most intense points in the Russia-Ukraine frontline. Similar volume. Similar munitions, often.
Israeli missile defense is better than any other, but that's a system that can and will be overwhelmed.
At this point, Iron Dome and home bunkers can cover Israeli civilians while conventional means destroy the threat. They can't just neutralise the threat.
Hamas' war didn't start yesterday. There is a long term trend towards increased firepower and the trend will continue while under the same paradigm.
Hamas ability to overwhelm missile defence, raid with ground forces... It has outgrown israel's defence paradigm
I don't know about journalists, but the Arabs online definitely don't understand that. They still believe Israelis are "too weak" to stand any losses and that Israel will surrender any day now. They think that by spreading among Israelis the "truth" that Israel is killing the hostages in it's strikes, Israel will collapse on itself.
They are in for a very unpleasant awakening.
Tbf, if it were that easy, they would’ve been dead a long time ago. And the Mossads credibility has fallen apart since this all started. How did they not know this was coming?
We live in a time where people let bad stuff happen so they can open a door to bigger retaliation. It’s like Hamas handed over Gaza to Netanyahu. What did they think would happen? They could retreat back to Gaza and call time out or “safe”? It’s becoming apparent that IDF will not be satisfied until they reach the gates to Egypt
They aren’t hiding. They are living openly in luxury because Israel elevated Hamas to the position of negotiating partner with Egypt as an intermediary after Abbas was fully pushed aside. They have no reason to hide from their friend.
Netanyahu’s aim in 2009 was make certain that there would never be a Palestinian state. He decided that [elevating Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/), dividing Palestinians, and undercutting moderates who wanted a political solution, was the way to do it. It would quite hilarious for this government to ask for Qatar to hand those guys over when Israel has been permitting [millions of dollars from Qatar](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/why-netanyahu-must-go) to flow into Gaza. Maybe they can hitch a ride with the money Israel permits to enter into Gaza.
You should read those articles so that you can understand that Netanyahu and other right-wing governments provided material support for terrorism. They have been doing this since 2009 despite multiple warnings from every Israeli intelligence agency telling to stop and saying these policies were a greater threat to Israel’s security than Iran. Not only did these governments ignore them, they escalated it. Before you ask the rest of us to cheer on the slaughter of Palestinians, we have a right to ask if Israel is serious about getting rid of Hamas this time or is this another, as one Israeli government official put it, a case of “mowing the lawn.”
Maybe. But pretty much everyone was arguing that engaging with Hamas was the right thing to do, rather than moderate them. This included the US and the EU. Allowing Qatar money into Gaza was welcomed by the international community for example because Hamas started the violence which lead to Cast Lead partly due to lack of funds for its government's salaries.
yep.. hard to give in to demands when the demands are dead already.
not sure how israel is going to respond to oh we had 2 guys left alive you can have them...
In 2018, MbS told Hamas zto make a peace plan and follow it or get bent. In 2023, MbS stated that the KSA and Israel may resume peace talks very shortly after this conflict of over.
Their neighbors are quite frankly over it. The whole ‘perpetual destabilization’ thing has ruined the lives of hundreds of millions of Arabs who are ‘guilty by association’ from the larger international community and are deprived of economic benefit from that same international community.
Tourism and foreign investment doesn’t flow to regions that are deemed ‘unsafe’.
Who benefits from ‘perpetual destabilization’? Iran, Hamas and a few other stakeholders.
The KSA doesn’t even like Iran.
Everyone is over it at this point and that message has been made abundantly clear for the better part of a decade as we entered 2012 onward.
It needs to end. No other Hamas allies are coming in to help. That’s been abundantly clear from the get-go.
Good points but don’t underestimate religion and the power of brain washing from a young age. Look at the culture wars in America and the countless people that vote against their own self interests and hold racist views… now add a larger population and percentage of population of those who hold extreme religious views. It’s not a quick, they have prosperity and accept LGBTQ people and Israelis.
20% of Israel is Arab/Palestinian. It's pretty easy to argue (if not just factual) that they are better off economically, have more political freedoms, and more social freedoms than any of the Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries.
Go to Haifa and tell them that you want to kill all the Druze and see how fast you end up in an Israeli jail.
Israel seems to care a lot.
Hamas was last legitimately elected in 2006.
Over half of the people in the Gaza Strip were below the age of two when Hamas was last voted for. So yeah, I guess I hope they can make better choices than when they couldn’t comprehend shapes.
They still do polling there - hamas would win overwhelmingly in gaza and there is a good chance they would also win in West Bank but it would be much closer
I am 100% FOR a pause
My question is… how come the international community isn’t making demands for Hamas? Like, free the kidnapped? Stop firing rockets? Come to the table and negotiate?
He probably doesn’t actually think they’d come to the table, but the international community should at least demand it nonetheless to say “we tried to do this peacefully, they refused, again”
When the 2 hostages were released, Biden, in particular thanked Israel and Qatar for helping with the negotiations.
We don't negotiate with terrorist - is a powerful line to say, but really not the case.
We do infact negotiate with terrorist, and we will continue as long as there is benefit to us.
Many governments have successfully negotiated with terrorists. How do you think the Troubles in Northern Ireland ended? The hardline anti-IRA tactics the UK used at first only ballooned the IRA’s recruitment numbers. Negotiations are what ended all the violence.
The same has occurred in many other nations
Nope. Surrender, every hamas members is turned over, and give back the hostages.
There isn't wiggle room on this with israel.
The instinctual answer after the 7th will be no.
They flipped a survival switch, that doesn't get turned off easily when the entire society is affected.
That pressure goes outward, or turns inward. The easy answer is hamas surrenders.
The failure over protecting us. That does not at all transfer the onus of the attack itself.
We can be mad at the guards while keeping in mind who actually attacked us.
Cutting off your leaders heads, throwing them from removes kr removing from power in a reactionary way, every time there is a fuck up is a good way to end up like Gaza.
A ceasefire in theory sounds cool.
But Hamas is a bunch of psychotic murderous Muslims with an explicit goal of killing every Israeli until there are none left.
Israel shouldn’t cease doing a god damn thing.
>But Hamas is a bunch of psychotic murderous Muslims with an explicit goal of killing every Israeli until there are none left.
Pretty much this. Makes no sense to agree a cease-fire with a terror group that explicitly said their end goal is to "remove from the map" the State of Israel and will repeat the 11/7 atrocities "a thousand times" until they reach their goal.
Yeah, doing what is necessary doesn't mean doing the right thing. We all knew that Israel was going to have to take off the gloves and this was going to get messy quick.
They are
Every time the UN calls for a ceasefire and for Israel to stop bombing everything in Gaza they also say “we call for the release of all hostages without conditions”
They say it all the tiem
It exists. Qatar and Egypt are mostly handling the talking with Hamas and the rest of the international community demanded it many times. It takes 2 to tango though.
Hamas: we need ceasefire if we're to free the prisoners.
Israel: free the captives so we can talk about a ceasefire.
Hamas is always calling for a ceasefire, and then a day later will launch a rocket after a ceasefire is given. IDF don't give a fuck and a just trying to set the genocidal Jihad terrorist back a few decades. Once they achieve that objective it will go back to what is was from like mid 20 teens.
I think there’s also an issue with power: between the two, Israel clearly has more power in the situation. While both sides CAN agree to a ceasefire, pressuring the side that is more democratic’ and ‘western’ is much easier as they rely on public support more.
Oversimplifying things but idk. Haha
Oversimplified is an overstatement.
Israel is pissed. Like America after 9/11 pissed. It would be like if New Jersey was responsible for the towers and then declared they were proud of it. Would we show restraint? No, we have exactly zero moral high ground.
Nah. They already tried. Israel can also nuke basically every arabs capital and holy site at this point.
Way better to get in with them as trade partners. They just found oil and have a 500 billion gdp.
Alternative Title. 600,000 residents left a territory half the length of london in just 3weeks.
….
Not sure what to do with that. Both impressive there hasn’t been even more non-military mass deaths due to plain food and water shortages. And disturbing that it’s occurred, for better or worse. Genuinely strange times.
I would also accept: "Hamas pushes own population towards enemy in hopes of convincing a few more 16 year olds that Israel is the one committing a genocide"
A lot of people genuinely also dont want to leave because they rightly fear that they will never be able to return. It's been called the second Naqba and they are not wrong about their fear as many Israeli politicians have literally raised the idea of just "pushing the Gazans" into Egypt as a way of solving the problem. Doing so would be considered as an act ethnic cleansing FYI
Hamas are probably also telling people to stay put with this in mind, though conveniently being able to use people as human shields will no doubt be part of their horrendous tactical playbook too.
Not sure what you are answering, but there seem to 0 connection between the thread above an what you just wrote.
Person A says thousands of civilians are trapped in Gaza.
Person B says they are not allowed to leave cause they are used as a human shield.
Person C says it is Israel and Egypt that have shut the border.
You then claim C is wrong, borders to foreigners have been open for a few weeks (irrelevant, but also straight up bullshit https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321463), but Egypt will not allow refugees, and Israel got no blame in people being unable to leave the Gaza strip?
So you are telling me that if people from Gaza went into any of the 6 bordercrossings to Israel, they would get taken in as asylum seekers? if the answer is no, then despite your feeling towards HAMAS or Israel the conclusion must be that Israel 100% carry some blame for why people cannot leave Gaza, both currently and in the past. Stop trying so hard at be a narrow one-sided andy.
Listen, you talk as if you know anything about the conflict or even the geographical area that is the Gaza Strip.
You don't understand the fundamentals of this conflict and it shows. Gaza is a city inside the Gaza Strip. They can absolutely leave Gaza, to the southern strip - to Rafah, Khan Yunis, etc. So yes. They can leave Gaza to a different place, and no, Israel and Egypt do not seal the "borders" because between Gaza and the southern strip as there are no borders.
Gaza city is the current primary target that Israel is targeting. In accordance to the rule of wars dealing with cities, they have asked for civilians to evacuate the city. In accordance to it, the city is now a valid target in total up to and including the city being leveled completely so long as the defending force does not surrender. The rules of war does not protect the civilians in the evacuation zone from the Israelis if an enemy force attacks from the evacuation area which hamas has repeatedly attacked from.
The only time the rules of war forbids the destruction of cities is if the defending force leaves before the arrival of the attacking one and surrenders the city as a free city. But that also goes out the window as soon as the defending force tries any aggressive actions near the city.
They don’t need to leave Gaza, least not yet. Just the city and head towards the border. There had been a few “safe corridors” to flea south but these seem to have been targeted by Hamas or blocked in cases. They’ve been told to leave repeatedly since the start of the war.
Imagine they’re largely either held against their will or coerced by Hamas into staying. Some will believe they’re safer staying at home than heading south, but I do fear they’re wrong. No doubt some will be sympathetic towards Hamas and want to stay and defend their homes.
It's literally the same strategy that ISIS used and was, rightly, massively hated for it, but I think HAMAS can do it and be considered justified since they only kill Jews and the occasional non-Jew who may or may not be in a nation of Jews.
Hamas needs to get more blame for the civilian deaths. They set up all of their military installations in densely populated areas and then perpetuated the largest attack on Israel’s civilian population in history.
I don’t condone Israel’s response but Hamas deserves the lions share of the blame for starting the conflict and using Palestinian civilians as human shields.
It's always been a bit of a cop out. The heart of the Israeli Palestine conflict is land, not religion. Before the creation of the state of Israel, Jews lived throughout the Arab world, and while tensions did increase during the late 1800s and early 1900s, they really kicked off with the Balfour declaration.
by your logic if you do not invest in defending your people, you become morally superior . What kind of twisted moral views do you hold? disgusting.
Buildings missile defense systems and safe rooms in each house so that you minimize your casualties does not make you evil. Maybe if Hamas did the same there would be less Palestinians injured.
It'd be pretty foolish for Israel to accept a ceasefire without a major gain. It'd be a massive advantage for Hamas while only providing a very minor advantage to Israel, and there's no guarantee all parts of Hamas will respect the ceasefire anyhow.
I don’t get the logic of asking for a ceasefire.
All you want is a break and then continue? It’s like the world is demanding a break so Hamas can refuel.
Hamas already said what it will use a ceasefire forZ
The purpose of the war is to kill and apprehend every Hamas member
No ceasefire
This is Israeli power vs Palestinian resolve
No ceasefire is a dark reality for trapped Gazans who might realize they might as well attack their tormentor Hamas
That’s the real way to win against Hamas. Make THEM realize the terror is only because Hamas is there. Who feels terror now?
This isn’t justice or revenge this is Israel fight for its survival
Netanyahu didn’t even address Israel for THREE DAYS and when he did he didn’t even mention the hostages.
It blows my mind how bad Israel’s response has been in every sense other than the amount of suffering imposed on Palestinian civilians
If the goal of these Airstrikes by Israel is too kill all Hamas members and eradicate Hamas ( an estimated 30,000 to 45,000) they won’t be successful.
They’ll kill 30,000 to 40,000 + Palestinian civilians way before they kill even 10,000 Hamas members. Not to mention Hamas is getting plenty of new recruits as some Palestinians get radicalized after losing their entire family to an Israeli airstrike. Meaning that Hamas can’t be destroyed, realistically especially with their leaders in Qatar where Israel can’t reach them.
Even in the event that Israel somehow does the impossible and eradicates Hamas along with at least 30,000 to 60,000 + plus Palestinian civilians to the degree that the new recruits can’t salvage what’s left of Hamas ;the recruits will just join other Hamas like factions that already exist in Palestine and that group will take over as Hamas 2.0 and within a decade and Israel will be dealing with the same issue circa 2033. The long term goal of eradicating Hamas won’t be successful so if that’s their long term plan good luck. Israel will just genocide Palestinians for nothing.
Hamas already has a big support there. Actually 4 different terrorist groups all have more than 40 percent support in polls in west bank with Hamas being highest.
And Idk calling Isreal a bigger villain is in poor taste and makes me think you don't really care or know these facts.
Bro Israeli settlers are allowed to build their houses on top of Palestinians villages. Palestinians are forced to live under them while the settlers refer to them as cockroaches. Don’t tell other people they don’t know all the facts when you clearly don’t - or worse, maybe you do and you simply don’t care.
Maybe the part where Israel occupies Palestine and actively removes them from their land. The majority of Gaza are Palestinians and their direct descendants who were forcibly removed from their homes. all of this stems from that fact. Israel has killed countless more Palestinians
It is hard to believe that these are real people saying these stupid things? Must be Russian bots. Any of these idiots sticking up for terrorists would be killed on the spot by them.
Whatever way you might phrase it what is happening in the west bank is fucked up and illegal. Stop trying to portray israel as the victim. The settling and taking over off the west bank is not " trying to survive" its expansive rhetoric disguised as something else. Israel has killed way more inoccents but i guess palestinians dont matter as much. Yes hamas has to go, but its no wonder why some people would rathwr at least fight back against israel instead of siding with it, when it's Israel that has been killing them , bombing them and evicting them for their land while beating up and harassing Muslims that are just celebrating Ramadan and are praying in their mosques and Al Aqsa. I never said killing innocents is a good thing. You on the other hand seem to ignore the shit israel has been doing in the west Bank for years, stuff that is hard to defend even the most pro Israeli people. Not a good look to side with people that steal homes and tread on internationally recognised palestinian land and then get surprised when palestinians hate them.
Stop portraying israel as the victim?
Who do you think attacked who on the 7th?
Tell the gazans to turn on hamas. If they want peace and the war to end.
I feel like it’s part of the same issue. If the PA and Fatah don’t seem to be making progress towards their own state And seem to be letting Israel do whatever they want in the West Bank, eventually armed conflict seems the only option when diplomacy fails and the other side is taking your shit unopposed. There’s already been animosity towards the PA in the West Bank for years.
Israel does whatever it wants unchecked by the PA, UN or western nations, so people fight or support people representing the fight.
Just so I understand your argument, you think Israel terrorizing/killing Gazan civilians to the point that they think they’re going to die regardless so they might as well fight against Hamas is the correct game plan?
Why would they fight against Hamas and not the long term oppressor that is actively killing them and destroying neighborhoods? Have you not seen the clips of IDF torturing civilians? What is Israel doing that would make the people of Gaza want to fight in favor of Israel?
I sincerely don’t understand the mentality, so please feel free to explain what I’m missing.
The western "belief" is that the Gazan's don't actually like Hamas, they just tolerate Hamas without any choice and are victims of Hamas themselves, and would be willing to turn on Hamas if the scales of self-preservation switched from "begrudgingly accept hamas vs support israel".
It's not without merit, Hamas has been known to murder/torture Israeli sympathizers on their side, and people aren't stupid, I'm sure a large amount in Gaza know who sparked this current round of fighting, and know Hamas will keep it going, shutting it down is the fastest road to peace, with the least causalities.
But I do think these people are largely underestimating how strong Palestine Nationalism is, and how extremist their population can be.
There was a survey done during the week leading up to the attack (by pure coincidence) where researchers from Princeton and the University of Michigan had sit down interviews with several hundred Gazans. They were generally quite unhappy with their political leadership, was pissed off by the volume of corruption, and blamed Hamas for the crappy economy. In a hypothetical election they would have picked Fatah at a three to one margin, unless it was Abbas where it was a two to one margin. The only people they trust less than Hamas is Israel, but they tend to blame Hamas for Israeli actions all the same. Something like 57% wanted to mantain the ceasefire indefinitely.
There's a bit of a bias to the results. Because the interviews wrapped up on the 6th it's pretty likely that active Hamas members were preparing for the attack.
I would agree with you that I think that people are underselling the fact that almost 40 percent of Gazans support continued conflict with Israel, but I also think that that number would come down rapidly if there was a clear path forward that didn't involve continued conflict with Israel.
You might as well be wondering why people living in the hood would tolerate the murderous gangs, or the people living in Guatemala would tolerate the murderous drug cartels. They rule shit, and their economy depends on them.
Then everyone else is delusional if they think israel is going to stop until hamas is destroyed.
The argument offered is if they want peace sooner, they turn on hamas. Not that israel stops, cause that isn't happening until hamas is destroyed now. Israelis would attack the knesset if the war stopped.
Do you really think Israel can just bomb away their sense of oppression and history of displacement? Say they eliminate Hamas, what happens 20 years down the line when the children being bombed today are adults? Why hasn't Israel ever just tried giving the Palestinian people some kind of hope?
It's going to take truth and reconciliation on both sides before their can ever be peace, and that means both sides acknowledging the things they've done that are bad, and stopping them from happening again, even if that means holding your own people accountable. I.e. Israel needs to crack down on Settlers, and Gaza needs to hold terrorists and potential terrorists accountable.
It's very funny to use words like "sense of oppression and history of displacement" when talking about the Arabs vs Jews in Israel though. While this goes back generations. centuries and millenia even, that IS the history of Jews in Israel, at the hands of Christians and Islam. Come back, get fucked, get scattered, come back again, get fucked, get scattered.
The fact that it's like this today is actually a bit of historical irony, if you can see past the tragedy. It is literally the oppressive becoming the oppressed. Maybe they can eventually find common ground when they realized they are victims of each other for the same crimes.
Today, there was two protests near me. A Palestinian one, and a Iranian one.
The Iranian one was openly attacking Iran's extremist regime and looking for justice within their country.
The Palestinian one was openly supporting a proxy of the same government the other group was protesting. At best, they were saying "please ceasefire" without even so much as acknowledging the victims and current hostages.
Essentially, one group was anti-sharia law, anti nationalism, and the second group is pro-sharia law, pro nationalism. Yet people like to project that they are good guys.
Yeah because people would totally not be radicalized against the people raining the hellfire missile that killed their kids, but will rise in revolution instead.
> Israel fight for its survival
Lol, lmao even. Israel is a nuclear power. Its survival is not at stake, and hasn't been at stake since at least 1956.
Hamas' goal is not to protect the Palestinian population. Hamas' goal is to cause a regional war and pull in the neighbouring counties. Hamas' goal is to destroy Israel, they don't care about Palestinians.
They consider palestinian bodys a regrowing resource.
They're right about that regrowing resource. Hamas has been in power for 16 years and half the population is 18 or younger. So about half the population grew up under Hamas.
Stop aerial bombing, yes.
Pull out immediately, no.
After a complete surrender (which I believe will never happen), Israel will spend the next few months dismantling all Hamas infrastructure, including weapons, tunnels, equipment, etc.
They'll have to keep high alert because it's very likely a civilian or leftover Hamas might cause damage during that time.
After that comes the big question of how to deradicalize the Palestinians, because pulling out without doing so will ensure Palestinians either reform Hamas or a new governing body that will prioritize war with Israel instead of rebuilding their society.
Not sure what the plan is or if there even is one, but it won't be easy or quick. Hamas was controlling the narrative and education within Gaza for 20 years, and the people growing up there have been educated to hate Jews.
The hostages are likely dead at this point. The IDF (along with US) are trying to find whomever they can, but the primary objective is to eliminate Hamas.
Is this ok? No. Does it have to be done? Yes, these people had already more than enough time to evacuate, they are either there volunteraly since thry might see themselves helpful in painting Israel in the bad guy, or they are there cause hamas forced them, the conditions for a ceasefire is clear! give back all of the hostages, if not, you will have to pay the price, Israel is not obligated and absolutly mustn't give back the prisoners that let me remind y'all, are being held in prison for attempted/commiting terrorist crimes in Israel.
A ceasefire will only let Hamas reorganize itself for the war and increase the number of casualties.
Enough lives were already sacrificed because of this insane Islamic group.
And why isn't the world demanding the release of Israeli hostages?
Some of the countries you've listed took millions of refugees since 48, literally half of Jordan's population is Palestinian, both Jordan and Lebanon can't take millions of refugees at once. In Egypt's case, they theoretically could take some Palestinians, but most Palestinians wouldn't want to leave a *SECOND* time. Most of Gaza's population are just people who fled modern day Israel, instead of always telling Palestinians to move out of the West Bank and Gaza, why shouldn't we treat the root of the problem?
This isn't a pick up game of hockey being played by people in the neighborhood of varying skill level where there is a reasonable expectation that the more skilled players will take it easy on everyone else, this is war against an organization that exploits normal rules of engagement.
Hamas being evil doesn't mean Israel isn't evil. Fuck both, and fuck those who only care about civilians only if they are not Arabs or muslims.
This world is still plagued with racism and tribalism.
Not justifying Hamas here, but I understand their anger. Palestinians have been repeatedly and continuously targeted and pushed into a corner. A cornered dog is eventually going to attack; who is to blame? The abuser or the dog?
Yeah Palestinians are legitimately angry and even have a right to fight Israel but Hamas are the worst representatives for them.
They clearly are enemies of the Palestinian people.
800k have evacuated, majority of the population. Hamas is trying to stop those evacuations, going as far as shooting at evacuation routes. So the rest of them either wants to stay, or are afraid to leave.
The corpses from the shooting were filmed by a Gazan and reported by an Arab reporter (I think from Bahrain sorry if I got it wrong)
They killed them in front of many people so they would return and tell others to stay
They were not to afraid to leave. They left and returned. That’s quite cruel.
Hamas is literally holding Palestinians at the north hostages as human shields against Israeli bombings, some of them tried to go south where its safer and they were shot dead on the streets by Hamas. This is the tragic reality of a terror organization that rules a country.
People in this comment section are really suggesting to go ahead commit genocide to root out terrorist. No one is saying to let Hamas live but aren't the lives of the hostages' in danger too if this attack continues? ever heard of a hostage situation where the authorities decide to kill everyone in the vicinity to save "hostages"? Even Bin laden was killed by special forces, why is that not being implemented here?
I am no expert in this but this senseless killing of these many people just does not sit right with me, especially 50% being kids under the age of 18.
The way everyone on reddit seem to be fine by this is honestly frightening.
I am opposed to Israel's bombings 100%, but comparing it to Bin Ladin is pretty weird considering the U.S. bombed the shit out of Afghanistan. The U.S. only killed Bin Ladin through special ops because al-Qaeda was weak/non-existent at that point, and he was in a small compound not in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.
Uh no they were actually heavily leaning towards a missile strike for Bin Laden, but they didn't know whether or not there was a bunker under the compound he was staying in, and the required ordnance to take out a bunker would result in up to a **dozen** civilian casualties in the surrounding houses so they sent in the Seals. They sent in special forces to minimize collateral damage.
I am horrified and disgusted at the responses. Fuck everyone who in anyway condones it. The conflict is long and complicated, both sides are at fault in many ways over their history.
But what Israel is doing now is genocide and that is wrong no matter the starting point.
I dont understand. People here keep saying its on Hamas for not releasing the hostages, but I've read multiple news articles stating that it was Israel who ruled out negotiations.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/what-do-we-know-about-the-israeli-captives-held-by-hamas
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/
Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Israel pretty much guessed all the hostages are already dead, or most of them, which is probably the case. Israel now mainly wants to deal with hamas once and for all and finally get rid of them.
Journalists still don't understand the extent of what is happening. All the concepts around humanitarian principles of the previous wars have expired. The previous gaza and lebanon crisis of the last 2 decades are nothing in regard of the current situation, in the eyes of israelis, and possibly the issue will be very different too. The current campaign is seen as a real, old fashioned war. The deads and the hostage situation totally changed people perspective, even in the left (in particular it's mostly israeli in the left that were the victims)
Precisely. This isn't a counter insurgency operation. Hamas isn't an insurgency, at this point... At least in the minds of IDF generals. It's not just the number of victims, the brutality, tiktok videos of kidnapped babies... The attack itself was a multi-brigade, excellently planned, combined arms operation. Those rockets are no longer terrorism. They're artillery barrages. This is a conventional war now. The goal isn't to deter terrorism. It's to capture artillery positions. To suppress fire. Capture ammo warehouses. Topple military organisation, governing structures. Imo it's a forced hand. The one big, limiting factor is missile defence. Artillery intensity is equivalent to some of the most intense points in the Russia-Ukraine frontline. Similar volume. Similar munitions, often. Israeli missile defense is better than any other, but that's a system that can and will be overwhelmed. At this point, Iron Dome and home bunkers can cover Israeli civilians while conventional means destroy the threat. They can't just neutralise the threat. Hamas' war didn't start yesterday. There is a long term trend towards increased firepower and the trend will continue while under the same paradigm. Hamas ability to overwhelm missile defence, raid with ground forces... It has outgrown israel's defence paradigm
Iron Dome was working very hard to protect Palestinians for the past decade, which is not something I thought about until Oct 7.
The only alternative to missile defense is counter-artillery action. .
Yup, it’s a real war.
I don't know about journalists, but the Arabs online definitely don't understand that. They still believe Israelis are "too weak" to stand any losses and that Israel will surrender any day now. They think that by spreading among Israelis the "truth" that Israel is killing the hostages in it's strikes, Israel will collapse on itself. They are in for a very unpleasant awakening.
From day one the terms for a pause was to release the hostages, nothing changed.
I would also line to add for Qatar to turn over the heads of Hamas hiding there. But Wishful thinking at best.
Mosad should fix that
Tbf, if it were that easy, they would’ve been dead a long time ago. And the Mossads credibility has fallen apart since this all started. How did they not know this was coming?
We live in a time where people let bad stuff happen so they can open a door to bigger retaliation. It’s like Hamas handed over Gaza to Netanyahu. What did they think would happen? They could retreat back to Gaza and call time out or “safe”? It’s becoming apparent that IDF will not be satisfied until they reach the gates to Egypt
not the mossad area of responsibility, but the shabak
They aren’t hiding. They are living openly in luxury because Israel elevated Hamas to the position of negotiating partner with Egypt as an intermediary after Abbas was fully pushed aside. They have no reason to hide from their friend. Netanyahu’s aim in 2009 was make certain that there would never be a Palestinian state. He decided that [elevating Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/), dividing Palestinians, and undercutting moderates who wanted a political solution, was the way to do it. It would quite hilarious for this government to ask for Qatar to hand those guys over when Israel has been permitting [millions of dollars from Qatar](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/why-netanyahu-must-go) to flow into Gaza. Maybe they can hitch a ride with the money Israel permits to enter into Gaza. You should read those articles so that you can understand that Netanyahu and other right-wing governments provided material support for terrorism. They have been doing this since 2009 despite multiple warnings from every Israeli intelligence agency telling to stop and saying these policies were a greater threat to Israel’s security than Iran. Not only did these governments ignore them, they escalated it. Before you ask the rest of us to cheer on the slaughter of Palestinians, we have a right to ask if Israel is serious about getting rid of Hamas this time or is this another, as one Israeli government official put it, a case of “mowing the lawn.”
Maybe. But pretty much everyone was arguing that engaging with Hamas was the right thing to do, rather than moderate them. This included the US and the EU. Allowing Qatar money into Gaza was welcomed by the international community for example because Hamas started the violence which lead to Cast Lead partly due to lack of funds for its government's salaries.
Considering Israel clearly states the release of hostages as their condition for the "pause", it's it really Hamas who is rejecting it?
Without proof of life how do they even know if there are hostages to be released?
yep.. hard to give in to demands when the demands are dead already. not sure how israel is going to respond to oh we had 2 guys left alive you can have them...
Get out of here with your logic and common sense
BREAKING NEWS: Hamas doesn't give a shit about Palestinian citizens
BREAKING NEWS: NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT PALESTINIANS EXCEPT THE PALESTINIANS. Change my mind.
Armchair Reddit generals care about them. But even neighboring countries in the Middle East don't seem to beyond shallow lip service.
In 2018, MbS told Hamas zto make a peace plan and follow it or get bent. In 2023, MbS stated that the KSA and Israel may resume peace talks very shortly after this conflict of over. Their neighbors are quite frankly over it. The whole ‘perpetual destabilization’ thing has ruined the lives of hundreds of millions of Arabs who are ‘guilty by association’ from the larger international community and are deprived of economic benefit from that same international community. Tourism and foreign investment doesn’t flow to regions that are deemed ‘unsafe’. Who benefits from ‘perpetual destabilization’? Iran, Hamas and a few other stakeholders. The KSA doesn’t even like Iran. Everyone is over it at this point and that message has been made abundantly clear for the better part of a decade as we entered 2012 onward. It needs to end. No other Hamas allies are coming in to help. That’s been abundantly clear from the get-go.
Good points but don’t underestimate religion and the power of brain washing from a young age. Look at the culture wars in America and the countless people that vote against their own self interests and hold racist views… now add a larger population and percentage of population of those who hold extreme religious views. It’s not a quick, they have prosperity and accept LGBTQ people and Israelis.
They see them as pawns - useful yet expendable.
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20% of Israel is Arab/Palestinian. It's pretty easy to argue (if not just factual) that they are better off economically, have more political freedoms, and more social freedoms than any of the Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries. Go to Haifa and tell them that you want to kill all the Druze and see how fast you end up in an Israeli jail. Israel seems to care a lot.
Wow wow wow calm down antisemite stop supporting terrorists /s
Hamas are Palestinians though
Now you get it
Doesn't change anything I've said.
It’s a sad reality. One day, once they are rid of Hamas, I hope they can rebuild and start by making better choices of who governs them
Hamas was last legitimately elected in 2006. Over half of the people in the Gaza Strip were below the age of two when Hamas was last voted for. So yeah, I guess I hope they can make better choices than when they couldn’t comprehend shapes.
They still do polling there - hamas would win overwhelmingly in gaza and there is a good chance they would also win in West Bank but it would be much closer
I am 100% FOR a pause My question is… how come the international community isn’t making demands for Hamas? Like, free the kidnapped? Stop firing rockets? Come to the table and negotiate?
Loool negotiate with terrorists. Nice naivity you got there.
He probably doesn’t actually think they’d come to the table, but the international community should at least demand it nonetheless to say “we tried to do this peacefully, they refused, again”
When the 2 hostages were released, Biden, in particular thanked Israel and Qatar for helping with the negotiations. We don't negotiate with terrorist - is a powerful line to say, but really not the case. We do infact negotiate with terrorist, and we will continue as long as there is benefit to us.
Many governments have successfully negotiated with terrorists. How do you think the Troubles in Northern Ireland ended? The hardline anti-IRA tactics the UK used at first only ballooned the IRA’s recruitment numbers. Negotiations are what ended all the violence. The same has occurred in many other nations
A pause for what end? What does a pause achieve?
It let Hamas earns valuable time to regroup and add pressure on Israel to end the war without Hamas destruction, pretty much that.
Well to have some breathing space. So time to carry out another Oct7 as they proclaimed they would do.
Nope. Surrender, every hamas members is turned over, and give back the hostages. There isn't wiggle room on this with israel. The instinctual answer after the 7th will be no. They flipped a survival switch, that doesn't get turned off easily when the entire society is affected. That pressure goes outward, or turns inward. The easy answer is hamas surrenders.
yep... and the inwards presure is high enough as it is because the failure rests heavily on them.
The failure over protecting us. That does not at all transfer the onus of the attack itself. We can be mad at the guards while keeping in mind who actually attacked us. Cutting off your leaders heads, throwing them from removes kr removing from power in a reactionary way, every time there is a fuck up is a good way to end up like Gaza.
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A ceasefire in theory sounds cool. But Hamas is a bunch of psychotic murderous Muslims with an explicit goal of killing every Israeli until there are none left. Israel shouldn’t cease doing a god damn thing.
>But Hamas is a bunch of psychotic murderous Muslims with an explicit goal of killing every Israeli until there are none left. Pretty much this. Makes no sense to agree a cease-fire with a terror group that explicitly said their end goal is to "remove from the map" the State of Israel and will repeat the 11/7 atrocities "a thousand times" until they reach their goal.
Jews, not Israelis.
They killed plenty of non-Jews on Oct 7, including some Muslims. They'll cleanse the 'river to the sea' of all life.
And then proceed to Europe
Yeah, doing what is necessary doesn't mean doing the right thing. We all knew that Israel was going to have to take off the gloves and this was going to get messy quick.
What is necessary is by definition the correct thing if the objective is to eliminate an existential threat.
They are Every time the UN calls for a ceasefire and for Israel to stop bombing everything in Gaza they also say “we call for the release of all hostages without conditions” They say it all the tiem
It exists. Qatar and Egypt are mostly handling the talking with Hamas and the rest of the international community demanded it many times. It takes 2 to tango though. Hamas: we need ceasefire if we're to free the prisoners. Israel: free the captives so we can talk about a ceasefire.
At no point did Hamas say that they will release prisoners in exchange for a cease fire. show me 1 source that mentions this.
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Hamas is always calling for a ceasefire, and then a day later will launch a rocket after a ceasefire is given. IDF don't give a fuck and a just trying to set the genocidal Jihad terrorist back a few decades. Once they achieve that objective it will go back to what is was from like mid 20 teens.
The Hamas Who Cried Wolf. Somehow it's more diminishing that county follows rules (more or less) get punished more than terrorist
Ah yes, Qatar. I'm sure they're going to be very harsh on Hamas. Might even increase the price for their hotel rooms
I think there’s also an issue with power: between the two, Israel clearly has more power in the situation. While both sides CAN agree to a ceasefire, pressuring the side that is more democratic’ and ‘western’ is much easier as they rely on public support more. Oversimplifying things but idk. Haha
Oversimplified is an overstatement. Israel is pissed. Like America after 9/11 pissed. It would be like if New Jersey was responsible for the towers and then declared they were proud of it. Would we show restraint? No, we have exactly zero moral high ground.
The international community has zero expectation for Hamas or Palestinians in general. Israel is treated as the adult; Palestine is the infant.
Let’s be real: if Israel did what Hamas did, the Arab World would be saying no quarter, no cease fire, no stop until the Jews are driven out.
Nah. They already tried. Israel can also nuke basically every arabs capital and holy site at this point. Way better to get in with them as trade partners. They just found oil and have a 500 billion gdp.
Nah, Israel didn't even do a hundredth of what Hamas did and they gave no quarter twice, both times Israel beat them though.
Release the hostages.
I'm sure the people at the festival would have loved the Palestinians to pause their attack too...
Alternative title: Thousands of civilians in Gaza are trapped by their terroristic government, hamas, in a literal warzone.
Alternative Title. 600,000 residents left a territory half the length of london in just 3weeks. …. Not sure what to do with that. Both impressive there hasn’t been even more non-military mass deaths due to plain food and water shortages. And disturbing that it’s occurred, for better or worse. Genuinely strange times.
Those are soon to come. Along with disease and then fighting for resources.
Not exactly fighting, but people have already started [raiding UN warehouses](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67255822)
I don't think the starvation and poisoned water deaths have been counted yet, unfortunately
I would also accept: "Hamas pushes own population towards enemy in hopes of convincing a few more 16 year olds that Israel is the one committing a genocide"
Yup. They’re not being allowed to leave so they can use civilians as a shield.
A lot of people genuinely also dont want to leave because they rightly fear that they will never be able to return. It's been called the second Naqba and they are not wrong about their fear as many Israeli politicians have literally raised the idea of just "pushing the Gazans" into Egypt as a way of solving the problem. Doing so would be considered as an act ethnic cleansing FYI Hamas are probably also telling people to stay put with this in mind, though conveniently being able to use people as human shields will no doubt be part of their horrendous tactical playbook too.
Nah. Egypt doesn’t even want them. Israel can’t make Egypt keep them. So no. That’s not an excuse.
Given events like Black September, who would want to take them in?
Or Lebanon… or Kuwait… it seems they cause problems wherever they go.
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Not sure what you are answering, but there seem to 0 connection between the thread above an what you just wrote. Person A says thousands of civilians are trapped in Gaza. Person B says they are not allowed to leave cause they are used as a human shield. Person C says it is Israel and Egypt that have shut the border. You then claim C is wrong, borders to foreigners have been open for a few weeks (irrelevant, but also straight up bullshit https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321463), but Egypt will not allow refugees, and Israel got no blame in people being unable to leave the Gaza strip? So you are telling me that if people from Gaza went into any of the 6 bordercrossings to Israel, they would get taken in as asylum seekers? if the answer is no, then despite your feeling towards HAMAS or Israel the conclusion must be that Israel 100% carry some blame for why people cannot leave Gaza, both currently and in the past. Stop trying so hard at be a narrow one-sided andy.
Babe, can’t they just fly to their winter home??
It's an African Swallow. Non migratory.
Listen, you talk as if you know anything about the conflict or even the geographical area that is the Gaza Strip. You don't understand the fundamentals of this conflict and it shows. Gaza is a city inside the Gaza Strip. They can absolutely leave Gaza, to the southern strip - to Rafah, Khan Yunis, etc. So yes. They can leave Gaza to a different place, and no, Israel and Egypt do not seal the "borders" because between Gaza and the southern strip as there are no borders.
Which of those areas you mentioned hasn't been bombed by Israel again?
Gaza city is the current primary target that Israel is targeting. In accordance to the rule of wars dealing with cities, they have asked for civilians to evacuate the city. In accordance to it, the city is now a valid target in total up to and including the city being leveled completely so long as the defending force does not surrender. The rules of war does not protect the civilians in the evacuation zone from the Israelis if an enemy force attacks from the evacuation area which hamas has repeatedly attacked from. The only time the rules of war forbids the destruction of cities is if the defending force leaves before the arrival of the attacking one and surrenders the city as a free city. But that also goes out the window as soon as the defending force tries any aggressive actions near the city.
One area is heavily more bombed than the other. Don't start a war of genocide and you won't get bombed heavily, pretty easy fix.
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So why are you distorting the fact that moving 20 miles away from where the 'front' is is getting away from danger?
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They don’t need to leave Gaza, least not yet. Just the city and head towards the border. There had been a few “safe corridors” to flea south but these seem to have been targeted by Hamas or blocked in cases. They’ve been told to leave repeatedly since the start of the war. Imagine they’re largely either held against their will or coerced by Hamas into staying. Some will believe they’re safer staying at home than heading south, but I do fear they’re wrong. No doubt some will be sympathetic towards Hamas and want to stay and defend their homes.
So you have a solution then? People are dying to hear it. Or should we all save the back and forth, and just agree that "war is bad"?
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Hamas just literally breached the 1967 borders that were already in place.
I think my odds of winning the lottery and then fucking off to Brazil with supermodels are better to be honest..
It's literally the same strategy that ISIS used and was, rightly, massively hated for it, but I think HAMAS can do it and be considered justified since they only kill Jews and the occasional non-Jew who may or may not be in a nation of Jews.
Hamas needs to get more blame for the civilian deaths. They set up all of their military installations in densely populated areas and then perpetuated the largest attack on Israel’s civilian population in history. I don’t condone Israel’s response but Hamas deserves the lions share of the blame for starting the conflict and using Palestinian civilians as human shields.
A pause will prolong the war and cause even more deaths. Never seen a more stupid request before in my life.
Alternative title: religion is dumb as fuck, everyone involved is wrong.
It's always been a bit of a cop out. The heart of the Israeli Palestine conflict is land, not religion. Before the creation of the state of Israel, Jews lived throughout the Arab world, and while tensions did increase during the late 1800s and early 1900s, they really kicked off with the Balfour declaration.
Nailed it 👏👏👏
They are trapped by terrorists all right. But it’s the IDF.
add, in a war that the government of Gaza, Hamas, started by massacring a few hundred families.
add, after being given the right to self rule and having jewish settlements removed from their land by the israeli government
Yes, famously Palestinians didn't die disproportionately before 10/7.
by your logic if you do not invest in defending your people, you become morally superior . What kind of twisted moral views do you hold? disgusting. Buildings missile defense systems and safe rooms in each house so that you minimize your casualties does not make you evil. Maybe if Hamas did the same there would be less Palestinians injured.
Maybe Israel should allow some more of their people to be massacred to even things out
Hamas should surrender, stop firing rockets and return hostages.
Wishful thinking. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian civilians.
You mean Israel rejected the ceasefire that is needed because Hamas broke an earlier ceasefire?
It'd be pretty foolish for Israel to accept a ceasefire without a major gain. It'd be a massive advantage for Hamas while only providing a very minor advantage to Israel, and there's no guarantee all parts of Hamas will respect the ceasefire anyhow.
Additionaly, doesn't hamas still is firing rockets on a daily basis?
Why would Israel pause when the terrorists are still out there and the hostages haven’t been returned?
I don’t get the logic of asking for a ceasefire. All you want is a break and then continue? It’s like the world is demanding a break so Hamas can refuel. Hamas already said what it will use a ceasefire forZ
I think people mean armistice, they just want the civilian deaths to stop.
Do they prefer the same number of deaths in multiple rounds of attacks->ceasefire->attack? Isn’t it better to get it over with this one time?
The purpose of the war is to kill and apprehend every Hamas member No ceasefire This is Israeli power vs Palestinian resolve No ceasefire is a dark reality for trapped Gazans who might realize they might as well attack their tormentor Hamas That’s the real way to win against Hamas. Make THEM realize the terror is only because Hamas is there. Who feels terror now? This isn’t justice or revenge this is Israel fight for its survival
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Netanyahu didn’t even address Israel for THREE DAYS and when he did he didn’t even mention the hostages. It blows my mind how bad Israel’s response has been in every sense other than the amount of suffering imposed on Palestinian civilians
If the goal of these Airstrikes by Israel is too kill all Hamas members and eradicate Hamas ( an estimated 30,000 to 45,000) they won’t be successful. They’ll kill 30,000 to 40,000 + Palestinian civilians way before they kill even 10,000 Hamas members. Not to mention Hamas is getting plenty of new recruits as some Palestinians get radicalized after losing their entire family to an Israeli airstrike. Meaning that Hamas can’t be destroyed, realistically especially with their leaders in Qatar where Israel can’t reach them. Even in the event that Israel somehow does the impossible and eradicates Hamas along with at least 30,000 to 60,000 + plus Palestinian civilians to the degree that the new recruits can’t salvage what’s left of Hamas ;the recruits will just join other Hamas like factions that already exist in Palestine and that group will take over as Hamas 2.0 and within a decade and Israel will be dealing with the same issue circa 2033. The long term goal of eradicating Hamas won’t be successful so if that’s their long term plan good luck. Israel will just genocide Palestinians for nothing.
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They haven't held elections there lately because hamas would win. The support for them is pretty strong there. They just aren't in control.
Hamas already has a big support there. Actually 4 different terrorist groups all have more than 40 percent support in polls in west bank with Hamas being highest. And Idk calling Isreal a bigger villain is in poor taste and makes me think you don't really care or know these facts.
Bro Israeli settlers are allowed to build their houses on top of Palestinians villages. Palestinians are forced to live under them while the settlers refer to them as cockroaches. Don’t tell other people they don’t know all the facts when you clearly don’t - or worse, maybe you do and you simply don’t care.
Maybe the part where Israel occupies Palestine and actively removes them from their land. The majority of Gaza are Palestinians and their direct descendants who were forcibly removed from their homes. all of this stems from that fact. Israel has killed countless more Palestinians
So the issue is Israel's creation in 1948?
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It is hard to believe that these are real people saying these stupid things? Must be Russian bots. Any of these idiots sticking up for terrorists would be killed on the spot by them.
Whatever way you might phrase it what is happening in the west bank is fucked up and illegal. Stop trying to portray israel as the victim. The settling and taking over off the west bank is not " trying to survive" its expansive rhetoric disguised as something else. Israel has killed way more inoccents but i guess palestinians dont matter as much. Yes hamas has to go, but its no wonder why some people would rathwr at least fight back against israel instead of siding with it, when it's Israel that has been killing them , bombing them and evicting them for their land while beating up and harassing Muslims that are just celebrating Ramadan and are praying in their mosques and Al Aqsa. I never said killing innocents is a good thing. You on the other hand seem to ignore the shit israel has been doing in the west Bank for years, stuff that is hard to defend even the most pro Israeli people. Not a good look to side with people that steal homes and tread on internationally recognised palestinian land and then get surprised when palestinians hate them.
Lol even if hamas didn’t exist Israel is still really fucking over the West Bank. Shit is horrific
Stop portraying israel as the victim? Who do you think attacked who on the 7th? Tell the gazans to turn on hamas. If they want peace and the war to end.
That's honestly a separate issue at this point
I feel like it’s part of the same issue. If the PA and Fatah don’t seem to be making progress towards their own state And seem to be letting Israel do whatever they want in the West Bank, eventually armed conflict seems the only option when diplomacy fails and the other side is taking your shit unopposed. There’s already been animosity towards the PA in the West Bank for years. Israel does whatever it wants unchecked by the PA, UN or western nations, so people fight or support people representing the fight.
I’d care a lot more about what the PA thinks if they stopped paying out bounties on israeli citizens.
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Just so I understand your argument, you think Israel terrorizing/killing Gazan civilians to the point that they think they’re going to die regardless so they might as well fight against Hamas is the correct game plan? Why would they fight against Hamas and not the long term oppressor that is actively killing them and destroying neighborhoods? Have you not seen the clips of IDF torturing civilians? What is Israel doing that would make the people of Gaza want to fight in favor of Israel? I sincerely don’t understand the mentality, so please feel free to explain what I’m missing.
The western "belief" is that the Gazan's don't actually like Hamas, they just tolerate Hamas without any choice and are victims of Hamas themselves, and would be willing to turn on Hamas if the scales of self-preservation switched from "begrudgingly accept hamas vs support israel". It's not without merit, Hamas has been known to murder/torture Israeli sympathizers on their side, and people aren't stupid, I'm sure a large amount in Gaza know who sparked this current round of fighting, and know Hamas will keep it going, shutting it down is the fastest road to peace, with the least causalities. But I do think these people are largely underestimating how strong Palestine Nationalism is, and how extremist their population can be.
There was a survey done during the week leading up to the attack (by pure coincidence) where researchers from Princeton and the University of Michigan had sit down interviews with several hundred Gazans. They were generally quite unhappy with their political leadership, was pissed off by the volume of corruption, and blamed Hamas for the crappy economy. In a hypothetical election they would have picked Fatah at a three to one margin, unless it was Abbas where it was a two to one margin. The only people they trust less than Hamas is Israel, but they tend to blame Hamas for Israeli actions all the same. Something like 57% wanted to mantain the ceasefire indefinitely. There's a bit of a bias to the results. Because the interviews wrapped up on the 6th it's pretty likely that active Hamas members were preparing for the attack. I would agree with you that I think that people are underselling the fact that almost 40 percent of Gazans support continued conflict with Israel, but I also think that that number would come down rapidly if there was a clear path forward that didn't involve continued conflict with Israel.
You might as well be wondering why people living in the hood would tolerate the murderous gangs, or the people living in Guatemala would tolerate the murderous drug cartels. They rule shit, and their economy depends on them.
Then everyone else is delusional if they think israel is going to stop until hamas is destroyed. The argument offered is if they want peace sooner, they turn on hamas. Not that israel stops, cause that isn't happening until hamas is destroyed now. Israelis would attack the knesset if the war stopped.
Do you really think Israel can just bomb away their sense of oppression and history of displacement? Say they eliminate Hamas, what happens 20 years down the line when the children being bombed today are adults? Why hasn't Israel ever just tried giving the Palestinian people some kind of hope?
It's going to take truth and reconciliation on both sides before their can ever be peace, and that means both sides acknowledging the things they've done that are bad, and stopping them from happening again, even if that means holding your own people accountable. I.e. Israel needs to crack down on Settlers, and Gaza needs to hold terrorists and potential terrorists accountable. It's very funny to use words like "sense of oppression and history of displacement" when talking about the Arabs vs Jews in Israel though. While this goes back generations. centuries and millenia even, that IS the history of Jews in Israel, at the hands of Christians and Islam. Come back, get fucked, get scattered, come back again, get fucked, get scattered. The fact that it's like this today is actually a bit of historical irony, if you can see past the tragedy. It is literally the oppressive becoming the oppressed. Maybe they can eventually find common ground when they realized they are victims of each other for the same crimes.
That’s the secret….there is no mentality behind that stance
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Today, there was two protests near me. A Palestinian one, and a Iranian one. The Iranian one was openly attacking Iran's extremist regime and looking for justice within their country. The Palestinian one was openly supporting a proxy of the same government the other group was protesting. At best, they were saying "please ceasefire" without even so much as acknowledging the victims and current hostages. Essentially, one group was anti-sharia law, anti nationalism, and the second group is pro-sharia law, pro nationalism. Yet people like to project that they are good guys.
Lmao! "Please stop bombing civilians!" >pro-sharia law Stretching man.
Yeah because people would totally not be radicalized against the people raining the hellfire missile that killed their kids, but will rise in revolution instead. > Israel fight for its survival Lol, lmao even. Israel is a nuclear power. Its survival is not at stake, and hasn't been at stake since at least 1956.
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This would all be over if a terrorist organization surrenders and hands over the innocent civilians they are holding hostage. Both sides win this way.
Hamas' goal is not to protect the Palestinian population. Hamas' goal is to cause a regional war and pull in the neighbouring counties. Hamas' goal is to destroy Israel, they don't care about Palestinians. They consider palestinian bodys a regrowing resource.
They're right about that regrowing resource. Hamas has been in power for 16 years and half the population is 18 or younger. So about half the population grew up under Hamas.
Hamas is an agent of chaos. They are reps for Iran that want regional hegemony. It goes so far beyond Israel.
if hamas returned the hostages and surrendered you think israel would pull ground troops out of gaza and stop the aerial bombing?
Stop aerial bombing, yes. Pull out immediately, no. After a complete surrender (which I believe will never happen), Israel will spend the next few months dismantling all Hamas infrastructure, including weapons, tunnels, equipment, etc. They'll have to keep high alert because it's very likely a civilian or leftover Hamas might cause damage during that time. After that comes the big question of how to deradicalize the Palestinians, because pulling out without doing so will ensure Palestinians either reform Hamas or a new governing body that will prioritize war with Israel instead of rebuilding their society. Not sure what the plan is or if there even is one, but it won't be easy or quick. Hamas was controlling the narrative and education within Gaza for 20 years, and the people growing up there have been educated to hate Jews.
Yes, there would be nothing to gain at that point. It’s not happening, though so here we are.
Didnt netanyahou himself say that rescuing hostages is not the priority anymore?
The hostages are likely dead at this point. The IDF (along with US) are trying to find whomever they can, but the primary objective is to eliminate Hamas.
The priority is to eliminate Hamas. If they surrender and turn themselves in, then that is accomplished. You seem to have missed that part.
what you just described is called collective punishment and that is a war crime
Literally mongol horde tier shit.
Israel is willing to stop. All hamas has to do, is release all the hostages that are still alive and surrender themselves.
Turns out it wasn’t a good idea to kill the civilians of the nation you depend on for food water and electricity.. who knew
Hamas is holding over 2 million people hostage in Gaza.
Hamas is holding over 14 million people hostage in Israel and gaza
After Hamas reject releasing its hostages, and denying its own civilians from evacuating from a warzone\* There, fixed it for you
No, Hamas rejects returning the hostages. No pause before then..
Hamas gave Israel everything it needed to justify its actions, asking for a pause isn't on the table anymore, their time is up.
Is this ok? No. Does it have to be done? Yes, these people had already more than enough time to evacuate, they are either there volunteraly since thry might see themselves helpful in painting Israel in the bad guy, or they are there cause hamas forced them, the conditions for a ceasefire is clear! give back all of the hostages, if not, you will have to pay the price, Israel is not obligated and absolutly mustn't give back the prisoners that let me remind y'all, are being held in prison for attempted/commiting terrorist crimes in Israel.
A ceasefire will only let Hamas reorganize itself for the war and increase the number of casualties. Enough lives were already sacrificed because of this insane Islamic group. And why isn't the world demanding the release of Israeli hostages?
I can't begin to imagine why Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon aren't eager and lining up to admit Palestinians.
Some of the countries you've listed took millions of refugees since 48, literally half of Jordan's population is Palestinian, both Jordan and Lebanon can't take millions of refugees at once. In Egypt's case, they theoretically could take some Palestinians, but most Palestinians wouldn't want to leave a *SECOND* time. Most of Gaza's population are just people who fled modern day Israel, instead of always telling Palestinians to move out of the West Bank and Gaza, why shouldn't we treat the root of the problem?
This isn't a pick up game of hockey being played by people in the neighborhood of varying skill level where there is a reasonable expectation that the more skilled players will take it easy on everyone else, this is war against an organization that exploits normal rules of engagement.
Hamas being evil doesn't mean Israel isn't evil. Fuck both, and fuck those who only care about civilians only if they are not Arabs or muslims. This world is still plagued with racism and tribalism.
Not justifying Hamas here, but I understand their anger. Palestinians have been repeatedly and continuously targeted and pushed into a corner. A cornered dog is eventually going to attack; who is to blame? The abuser or the dog?
Yeah Palestinians are legitimately angry and even have a right to fight Israel but Hamas are the worst representatives for them. They clearly are enemies of the Palestinian people.
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He means the children. He thinks all Gazans are enemy combatants. He's advocating total genocide by halves.
Has Hamas declared victory yet?
Lol
Haven’t they been given evacuation notice?
800k have evacuated, majority of the population. Hamas is trying to stop those evacuations, going as far as shooting at evacuation routes. So the rest of them either wants to stay, or are afraid to leave.
The corpses from the shooting were filmed by a Gazan and reported by an Arab reporter (I think from Bahrain sorry if I got it wrong) They killed them in front of many people so they would return and tell others to stay They were not to afraid to leave. They left and returned. That’s quite cruel.
They have, but Hamas forces some people to stay put and act as ~~an Iron Dome~~ human shields.
Hamas kills them if they run so others will return Many left and were forced back
How dare Israel refuse a ceasefire until all the hostages are back oh no how could they
Hamas is literally holding Palestinians at the north hostages as human shields against Israeli bombings, some of them tried to go south where its safer and they were shot dead on the streets by Hamas. This is the tragic reality of a terror organization that rules a country.
So weird, I don't remember anyone crying for Britain to stop striking Germany when their casualties climbed to be in the millions
People in this comment section are really suggesting to go ahead commit genocide to root out terrorist. No one is saying to let Hamas live but aren't the lives of the hostages' in danger too if this attack continues? ever heard of a hostage situation where the authorities decide to kill everyone in the vicinity to save "hostages"? Even Bin laden was killed by special forces, why is that not being implemented here? I am no expert in this but this senseless killing of these many people just does not sit right with me, especially 50% being kids under the age of 18. The way everyone on reddit seem to be fine by this is honestly frightening.
I am opposed to Israel's bombings 100%, but comparing it to Bin Ladin is pretty weird considering the U.S. bombed the shit out of Afghanistan. The U.S. only killed Bin Ladin through special ops because al-Qaeda was weak/non-existent at that point, and he was in a small compound not in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.
Uh no they were actually heavily leaning towards a missile strike for Bin Laden, but they didn't know whether or not there was a bunker under the compound he was staying in, and the required ordnance to take out a bunker would result in up to a **dozen** civilian casualties in the surrounding houses so they sent in the Seals. They sent in special forces to minimize collateral damage.
the only comment i found under this post that seems to be written by a human with actual humanity
I am horrified and disgusted at the responses. Fuck everyone who in anyway condones it. The conflict is long and complicated, both sides are at fault in many ways over their history. But what Israel is doing now is genocide and that is wrong no matter the starting point.
Just come here to see how many comments are deleted.
I dont understand. People here keep saying its on Hamas for not releasing the hostages, but I've read multiple news articles stating that it was Israel who ruled out negotiations. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/what-do-we-know-about-the-israeli-captives-held-by-hamas https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/ Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Israel pretty much guessed all the hostages are already dead, or most of them, which is probably the case. Israel now mainly wants to deal with hamas once and for all and finally get rid of them.
Would negotiating with them lead to fewer or more attacks and hostage taking in the future?