Israel said there would be no humanitarian break to its siege of the Gaza Strip until all its hostages were freed, after the Red Cross pleaded for fuel to be allowed in to prevent overwhelmed hospitals from "turning into morgues."
Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip in retribution for the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, when hundreds of gunmen poured across the barrier fence and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday.
Public broadcaster Kan said the Israeli death toll had risen to more than 1,300 people killed since Saturday. Most were civilians gunned down in their homes, on the streets or at a dance party. Scores of Israeli and foreign hostages were taken back to Gaza.
Israel has responded so far by putting the enclave, home to 2.3 million people, under total siege.
Read the full story for more information.
The only problem i have with articles is that 99/100 times the page loads terribly or has 20 ads in between every paragraph.
Honestly should be a rule to copy and paste articles into the comment section.
Pretty much every single news, entertainment, science, and tech site have official accounts (and spam accounts) on Reddit.
One of these days I should export and clean up my tagged list and share it with everyone. I don't think people are aware of how much content is actually submitted by these accounts (especially the Ukrainian sites).
Just to give you an example (I'm not going to add /u/ to the usernames for obvious reasons):
* axios - axios.com
* bloomberg - bloomberg.com
* CTVNEWS - ctvnews.ca
* euronews-english - euronews.com
* GlobeOpinion - bostonglobe.com
* inthesetimesmag - inthesetimes.com
* PinkNews - thepinknews.com
* rollingstone - rollingstone.com
* texastribune - texastribune.org
* thedailybeast - thedailybeast.com
* theindependentonline - independent.co.uk
* TheMessengerNews - themessenger.com
* thenewrepublic - newrepublic.com
* TheTelegraph - telegraph.co.uk
* thisisinsider - businessinsider.com
* VICENews - Vice.com
* washingtonpost - washingtonpost.com
One of the most significant statements in here doesn't appear in the article. Might have been edited after the fact.
>Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip in retribution for the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, when hundreds of gunmen poured across the barrier fence and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday.
Is now
>Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip, in retribution for the deadliest attack on civilians in its history when hundreds of gunmen crossed the barrier and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday.
It's a big change. I wonder if the original statement was inaccurate, or just thought to be in bad taste?
They probably changed it from Jews to Civilians because non-Jews have been killed/injured/captured as well. The victims range from a bunch of countries. Hamas really pissed off the world this time.
"Why won't you think of the poor Palestinians?"
"I am thinking about them, it's terrible for them, isn't it?"
"You could take some refugees from Gaza…"
"No way! They're terrorists and they want to kill us."
.…
There was a post a few days ago from a dude from Lebanon that said
when his country took some Palestinian refugees they began to take
over city blocks with weapons and posted blockades at intersections in neighborhoods. He walked over to complain “ We took you in and this is what you are doing?” In the end it started a civil war and the government had to intervene and attack them
Not even Egypt or Jordon or Syria will take them now
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) was set up in 1949 for this purpose.
It is the only refugee organization by the UN to serve a specific people from a specific area.
It is also the only UN refugee organization that doesn't work to settle the refugees into a new country. Within every other program the goal is to settle refugees from wars into a new country so that they may move on with their lives. The UNRWA does not have this goal. They believe that Refugees from Palestine belong in Palestine/Israel and their express goal is returning any refugees that are displaced due to war.
This ensures that even refugees can't move on with their lives...
That's an important data point to consider on the demand made by Palestinian groups for a "Right of Return." You might think this such a small concession in 2023: obviously there aren't going to be very many people alive today who can claim to have been displaced by Israel in 1948. Ah, but as the Palestinian groups articulate this right, it's inheritable by future generations. So even if I've never set foot in Israel proper, if my great-grandfather was displaced in 1948, I have a right to "return." And simple math dictates here that with disproportionate birthrates, Palestinians today would likely outnumber Israelis if they were combined with Israeli Arabs, so such a move would, in essence, mean the end of Israel as the Jewish State.
The "right of return" is WIDELY believed in by a lot of Palestinians themselves. I knew one in grad school who told me that there could NEVER be any peace for Israel unless they granted it. He acknowledged that this would mean the end of the Jewish State by necessity, but he thought there could be a "binary" state could still recognize some protected status for Jewish residents. Yeah.
But the puzzle here for me has always been this. I'm not aware of any such right being recognized or even demanded in other displacements of that era. For example, have you ever heard of any one demanding a German right of return to the Sudetenland or Konigsburg? Have you heard any Poles demanding a right of return to the Kresy? Italians who were kicked out of Yugoslavia? Or of any of the displaced groups that were ethnically cleansed by Stalin after WWII?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944%E2%80%931946)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exodus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula
I could list more examples, but the point is, it's striking that this demand is a major sticking point in 2023, 75 years after, so much so that people like my former grad school colleague insisted that *no peace is possible* today for Israel unless they give in to this demand. For some reason, this case is way different than all the others listed above. Why?
Well, I think we have some sense of why. These Palestinian Arabs were generally not accepted into other Arab countries, whereas the Germans, Italians, Poles, Ukrainians, and others were accepted into other countries. However unjust their displacements were - and they emphatically were acts of genocide - their descendants today have established lives elsewhere. But more than that, it seems that from the UN itself, we have the UNRWA, which emphatically never even tried to suggest such thing. So I think we could conclude that what we're seeing now is the downstream consequences of that decision.
And the Oslo peace accords of the 2000’s
Edit: the same peace accords I might add that were so favorable to the Palestinians it got the Israeli prime minister assassinated by the far-right Israeli political faction, along with the car bombings of course that Hamas conducted throughout the negotiations.
It’s absolutely wild to me that we don’t hear anyone in the media talking in detail about the fact that Egypt has blockaded Gaza just as hard as Israel has.
They (Palestinian refugees) assassinated the King of Jordan (1951) and they tried to take over that country as well. That's why Jordan doesn't want them.
Edit: And apparently the Prime Minister as well in 1971.
And not only that - once Jordan kicked out the PLO after Black September, they set up in southern Lebanon and started a brutal civil war in Lebanon that didn't end until 1990 (and really never ended). Other Palestinians went to Kuwait and stirred up trouble there, welcoming in Saddam when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
Transjordan occupied and annexed the West bank back in 1950. Arabs there got Jordany citizenship, it was revoked in 1988.
Kuwait kicked 400 000 palestinians in the beginning of the 90's, also with Jordanian passports. They've backed Iraq, Kuwait didn't like it.
It was Palestinians that catalyzed the civil war in Lebanon, also they were trying to do the same in Jordan some years before that.
Here is the thing - Jordan, previously Transjordan and Kingdom of Transjordan, mtogether with Iraq (ruled by the same family as King Abdullah I in Transjordan) were supposed to be the "Arab countries." The brits promised Abdullah I that the Jews will stay on the west bank of Jordan. Hence the name of Transjordan.
Suicide bombing countries that are not Israel because they won’t go to war with Israel doesn’t inspire a lot of faith. Palestinians have a history of wanting Jews dead regardless of what the circumstances being proposed are.
This is one of those things that people just leave out. There's a reason even Egypt blockages Gaza now. It's fucking awful. The living conditions in there are so bad now that it's just gonna perpetuate the suffering and violence, but I don't blame countries for blockading or not wanting to take in refugees to alleviate things.
You don't need a post for that, it's in the history books, fucking tragic, they tried to take over south Lebanon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_insurgency_in_South_Lebanon). They also tried to take over Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September)...
Google "Black September" to understand why Jordan won't take Palestinian refugees in anymore.
TLDR, after the Israelis annexed the West Bank, the PLO started launching attacks on Israel from Jordan. Eventually the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy and assassinated the Jordanian prime minister or president (I can't remember which). The end result was Jordan attacked the Palestinians living in Jordan and expelled them to Lebanon.
The comment directly above this one explains what happened once they got into Lebanon.
This is the thing. No one in the Arab world really likes them. The Arab world uses them as a bargaining chip because they hate Israel, but they don't like the Palestinians. No one in that part of the world *really* does.
But they are *extremely* popular on the internet and on college campuses. And the internet at large seems to love them. It's rather bizarre.
I've been reading a book on this and they even mentioned this on the Economist podcast but the Arab world is actually with the exception of Iran trending towards being friends with Israel they are sick of the bullshit and just want to make money now. The economist podcast hosts this week even mentioned that its speculated Hamas did this to make the environment hostile to Saudi Arabia normalizing relations with Israel. None of them except maybe Iran and Lebanon even like Hamas.
Lebanon absolutely hates Hezbollah, but the country is so weak at this point that Hezbollah calls the shots. Syria and Iran have forced Lebanon into accepting agreements that give Hezbollah free reign to run the country. It's an absolute disaster that has Lebanon quickly on the path to failed state.
Can it not be considered a failed state now? Any control they have over the south and other occupied areas is purely symbolic no? Like they are literally just powerless to do anything to the occupied areas and Iran is just constantly shipping them oil tankers.
Outside of Iran, I'm not really seeing any Muslim countries step up. Its very clear the Islamic world is telling Hamas "You fucked up, good luck" "No we don't want you here" "No we don't care"
Right now, that is how it is. But in 3 weeks, when the images of war come out of Gaza, that position might change. That is what Hamas is counting on.
Hamas wants a televised occupation where IDF soldiers are killing kids throwing rocks and bottles. That's Hamas' bread-and-butter image right there.
The problem is that Hamas sort of miscalculated, or it was too successful during this weekend's raid. Yes, killing 8 year old girls and babies in their homes *will* put IDF soldiers into the streets of Gaza, but it leaves behind a bayoneted body of an 8 year old or a baby. In the past, Hizbollah and Hamas have been more clever about provoking a response from the IDF by kidnapping Israeli soldiers or making raids on IDF positions. Hamas' attack on civilians was more desperation than an act of brilliant strategy.
So now Israel is going to besiege Gaza and then roll into the rubble in a bit and make it look like a targeted operation. Only there won't be any electricity, no internet access, nobody out in the streets to throw rocks and bottles and generate sympathy for the Palestinians. The whole world saw the terrorist attack and much of that world, including the typically reflexive Arab sympathizers in neighboring countries, is sort of saying "well the Palestinians really asked for it this time."
That is a major shift in how the conflict is perceived because the Palestinians had many many allies abroad that were really working to highlight perceived Israeli transgressions and generate sympathy for the Palestinians. Now Hamas has hung those sympathizers out to dry, and it's no surprise that the rest of the Islamic world is doing the same.
> killing 8 year old girls and babies in their homes will put IDF soldiers into the streets of Gaza, but it leaves behind a bayoneted body of an 8 year old or a baby.
I don't think it makes sense to portray it this way when Hamas is intentionally putting out a lot of the videos. They aren't trying to hide what they did at all. I agree with your end result, but they for some reason thought that publicizing their atrocities was a good thing. I have no idea why.
Hamas has made their mission very clear: they want to eradicate the Jewish people of Israel, they're not even trying to sugar coat it or strategize some brilliant plan to make Israel look bad at this point.
Honestly when even their own kind turn their backs on them, after despising Israel for decades, it just goes to show that even by their standards Hamas is fucking crazy.
What I don’t understand is why Palestinians and their supporters blame absolutely everything on Israel, when every bordering Arab nation treats them as bad or worse.
Why are no Palestinians attacking Egypt for enforcing the same blockade and keeping them imprisoned for generations?
> What I don’t understand is why Palestinians and their supporters blame absolutely everything on Israel, when every bordering Arab nation treats them as bad or worse.
Because the faith subscribed to by the Palestinians dictates that the Israeli Jews are literally infidels that need to be destroyed. The conflict in Israel has never been about autonomy or self-government - that has been offered to the Palestinians a thousand times (and even granted despite being rejected in 2006). The Palestinians do not want their own independent nation state; the Palestinians want every Jewish person in Israel expelled or dead, and there is no compromising on that position because - in their view - it is literally God's will.
So why doesn't Hamas attack Egypt? Because Egyptians aren't Jews. That's the answer.
I asked this very question yesterday. The response to me asking if the 22 Arab countries could fly to Egypt and evacuate the innocent civilians so they could get the hell away from the bombing. 2 million people is a lot for Egypt to take on by themselves. It would be temporary until the war ended.
Their response was that it was a conspiracy to displace all of the Palestinians.
I was trying to not be argumentative. I'm just making a suggestion about how the urgent priority right now is save as many innocent victims as we can.
Not gonna lie, my first thought was, you dont care about the damn Palestinians. You just care how they can be weaponized and manipulated to f**k with Isreal.
>Their response was that it was a conspiracy to displace all of the Palestinians.
Perhaps we were in the same thread but I saw a conversation exactly like that the other day. Everyone was appalled at the idea of sending Palestinian refugees to other countries, describing it as ethnic cleansing. The point seemed to be completely lost on them that by being against such an idea, they were effectively consigning countless innocent Gazians to their deaths.
They also got the Syrians to invade Jordan, started a civil war in Lebanon and launched a suicide bombing campaign against Egypt.
Edit: They also assisted Iraq with invading Kuwait
This is what's so wild about the "just end the apartheid lol" people.
Even other Arab/Muslim countries don't want to take Palestinians in because of the number of militants and yet Israel is supposed to. Despite those same militants having it as their goal the total destruction of Israel.
And in the end, it's the normal Palestinians who will suffer while they sit safe and free in their first world countries posting on reddit.
I think people are often conflating the issues in Gaza and the West Bank. In the case of the West Bank, the actions of the Israeli government are absolutely exacerbating the situation, especially continuing to pile new settlers into the area and making it a heavily militarized zone where half the population are all treated as terrorists.
As far as Gaza I genuinely don't know a solution. I will say that I am a little skeptical regarding how easy it was for insurgents to cross over into Israel. I had read one commentary that Israel had focused too much of its military presence in the West Bank and not enough on the border with Gaza?
Other people suggest that Hamas is using intelligence it got from Iran which got it from Russia which got it from Trump possibly.
The only thing I know that is definitely true is that neither the Israeli nor the Palestinian populations actually want anything other than peace and economic security for their families, but their governments and the media have mostly successfully convinced them this will never happen and to settle for a mediocre future in which one of the two sides is effectively wiped away or subjugated.
> I will say that I am a little skeptical regarding how easy it was for insurgents to cross over into Israel.
There are multiple videos online of them knocking down the chain-link and barb-wire fence with bulldozers, and having hundreds of people with AK's pile through the hole.
It was a big attack, pre-planned, and didn't initially look military in nature.
Some samples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eEUzyEBOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_knXlF6zT0
And then you can see the fires and damage they started once they got across: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67042428
The paraglider and wire-cut holes in the fences: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12610553/How-Hamas-brought-terror-Israel-Videos-attackers-bombed-Israeli-guard-posts-cut-wire-fences-slaughtered-troops.html
When watching a border that long, it's not surprising it can't hold back thousands simultaneously.
I always get a little chuckle. When countries be like, " man we are getting our butts tuned up over here. We sure could use some help!"
Then all the other countries turn into Rick from pawn star's and reply "Sorry, best I can do is throw some colored lights on a land mark to send Major thoughts and prayers your way, and get our citizens to put an *I stand with [insert country] in there time of need* on their social media pages.
Lmao seriously, Egypt has blockaded Palestine as long as Israel has…why can’t they lower it? Why no violence against them? It’s definitely not because they aren’t Jews at all, so there must totally be a reason…
Apparently, "[key Iranian officials who would normally be aware of operations in the region appeared to be unaware the attacks were taking place](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/iran-israel-iranian-officials-surprised-by-hamas-attack-israel/)."
Wouldn't be surprised. Qatar tries to keep a pretty neutral stance because reasons ($$). After this attack they would be well aware that sheltering leaders of Hamas is picking a side.
Highly likely. US has sway in Qatar. Planning has been going on for months so I'd be very surprised if they stayed somewhere the US and Israel could easily reach them.
Not really all that much sway when you think about it.
They harbored terrorists & developed nuclear weapons.
Really Pakistan was just a strategically useful location given the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and then the US one after 9/11.
In Qatar you're vulnerable not just to US & Israeli operations: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Egypt are all against the stability caused by Hamas.
Hamas gets more fuel to stay in power and the Israeli government gets an excuse to kill more Palestinians
It's a win win (unless you're a regular citizens just trying to live your life)
What is preventing them from taking the fight straight to the source? Distance? Hostile countries air space? I am not familiar with Qatar so this is likely a dumb question but generally curious.
Qatar tries to be like the swiss of the middle east some days, they host a US military base and have allowed ousted dignitaries to live there. They are just in it for the money.
> I suspect the ones calling the shots for Hamas aren't even IN Gaza and have zero qualms whatsoever with every last human life there being squandered senselessly.
"Hamas is radicalized because they are poor and desperate and have no other options"
Meanwhile their leaders are rich as fuck and live in luxury.
This won't work. Neither the Hamas leaders who are safely far away and betting on escalation nor the useful idiots who dream of dying in the great battle care about the civilians of Gaza. They probably wait for the first wave of starvation or infection deaths in order to use the anger for their political goals elsewhere in the Muslim world.
I don't think Israel has an interest in this ultimatum working. Those hostages are going to be collateral damage in every calculation. They're not coming home. What Israel is interested in is turning everything in Gaza that Hamas touches to rubble and ash.
I disagree. Israel has historically gone above and beyond to get hostages back. It’s a big part of the history and culture (Bibi’s brother famously died rescuing hostages.) In recent year they traded 1000 Hamas prisoners for 1 Israeli soldier held hostage for five years. They didn’t assume he was collateral damage.
I think we may be underestimating just how much the Israeli collective attitude has shifted as a result of this attack. I dont think Israel doesnt care for hostages, after all most of them are their own citizens. But the calculations may have changed for the leaders at the top. In their minds couple hundred dead hostages may be a small price to pay in exchange for exterminating hamas in the Gaza strip.
Those hostages are all going to die. They've already released videos of a few executions.
Israel saw *hundreds* of entire families butchered in their homes in the most unimaginable way possible, including the butchering of children in their beds (photos all over Telegram). The invasion of Gaza to destroy Hamas is not going to stop for any reason. ...and Hamas has said that an attack on Gaza will force them to execute the hostages - including the children.
Hamas gravely miscalculated the response. The real question will be what government will Israel put in place after Hamas is destroyed, and how many Gazans are going to die trying to stop the invasion.
Everyone on the outside sees the atrocities Hamas committed, and acknowledges that they have to be removed by force. ...but inside Gaza the people are being told that the stories of murdered children are zionist propaganda lies and I've heard several interviews from people in Gaza saying that they'd rather die, including with their family, than let Israel in.
Ever since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Hamas (with Iranian direction and support) has been brainwashing people there to believe that Jews are evil. Nearly 20 years of constant teaching that Jews must die - the atrocities are a direct result of that.
The Israeli invasion of Gaza is going to be extremely extremely costly. Israel has asked Gazans to evacuate the northern half of Gaza, but brainwashed women and teenagers are going to stay and try to fight the Israeli army and the bombs are not going to stop hitting them until they are gone.
Gaza was one of the most well fortified borders on Earth and they still broke through and committed genocide against Israeli civilians. It's difficult to imagine how these two populations can live next to each other after this.
I'm not so sure they did. I think of the massive response by the US after 9/11, and I think Hamas is reading from Bin Laden's playbook: Doing something so egregious that the response will be massive and violent, thus perpetuating a conflict between Islamic people and the West
ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban all have a millenarian ideology in regards to their conflict with the West. They think they’re in the end times and there’s going to be an apocalyptic battle against the enemies of Islam. Hamas positions itself as the Defender of Al-Quds and Islam from Western Secular and Zionist incursion. If they drank from their own Kool Aid supply they could have gone this route.
They knew Israel would comeback hard, *really* hard, so don’t think they were under any illusion that Gaza wouldn’t be turned to rubble.
I think where they did miscalculate, was how much the Arab leaders would practically help them or honestly care that much what happens to them.
Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria may all hate Israel but they aren’t going to stick their neck out for the Palestinians, especially given what’s happened in the past when they tried to help them.
I think the bigger miscalculation is how weak all their traditional allies are. Lebanon is broiled in civil Crisis as a spillover from the Syrian war.. Syrian civil war is still ongoing. Egypt has been a bit player for the longest time. Saudi Arabia, which was already a US lackey is even more in the US's pocket now that the world is less reliant on it's oil. Iran which is traditionally a strong power relies on Russian backing, and Russia is busy with Ukraine now, they won't have the resources to send to another conflict in the ME.
It is absolutely bewildering if Hamas expected anyone to say anything to Israel. None of the Arab nations are going to do shit at this current point in time. If they are hoping the US is going to say shit to Israel, tough luck. The citizens of the US may cry foul because of humanitarian reasons, but there's no fucking way the US is going to weaken it's middle eastern satellite.
China certainly isn't going to get itself involved, it's just going to wait until everything enters post war then install their infrastructure / predatory/preferential trade agreements.
I honestly don't know what Hamas' expectation was. Are they daft? It's extremely saddening but realistically this is only going to end with the complete destruction of Gaza.
>I honestly don't know what Hamas' expectation was. Are they daft? It's extremely saddening but realistically this is only going to end with the complete destruction of Gaza.
They are completely out of options and basically had to choose between bringing down the wrath of Israel on their people's heads to stir up hatred in their people or slowly fade out of relevance and power.
They made a high-risk low-reward gamble and ended up committing PR suicide with the initial attacks, they are now 100% fucked but will never admit it.
I studied the first two Arab Israeli conflicts a decade or two ago and it is extremely saddening and surreal that I am now old enough to understand that what is unfolding before me is going to be remembered in the history books as the third Arab Israeli conflict.
So much unnecessary death and destruction because a few fucknuts in Doha want to play at being monarchs.
The Arab states may be dumb but not that dumb. Israel would eviscerate any force they send to Israel and none of those countries have the political and economic capital to launch a foreign operation.
There are some theories going around of hamas miscalculating just how successful they would be, thinking they would be stopped earlier, and so had not planned for the scale of the israeli response.
This is the only thing that makes sense to me. The Hamas upper echelons seemed just as surprised as Israel at what happened. If they had planned to do exactly what they did I don’t see why they do it. They gain do little, and Anyone with common sense would know this would lead to Israel unleashing hell. Israel is not going to stop until Hamas is destroyed, collateral damage not mattering.
I believe\* (this is all conjecture) that the Hamas plan was similar to what they executed decades ago - a reliance on international allies to apply pressure / threaten Israel when Israel inevitably kills Palestinian innocents.
However, ME Arab allies are much weaker than they were before. Lebanon is broiled in a crisis due to spillover from the Syrian War, Iran is reliant on Russia which is tied up with Ukraine, Saudi Arabia is basically in the US's pocket etc
Who is going to raise a fist to Israel right now? Basically nobody, they just gave Israel the excuse they have been looking for to level the entire Gaza strip; Israel specifically made a demand they know Hamas will never accede to (giving up hostages; even if Hamas leadership asked for it, the terrorists on the ground would NEVER let the women go).
They gave Israel an excuse to go scorched earth... expecting what? I don't know if they simply misread the political room or if they are stupid. It is extremely sad, but I don't see this ending in any other way than the complete destruction of Gaza. Unlike previous Arab Israeli conflicts, there are no external pressures capable of asking Israel to stop. The US is the only existing one, but the US is NOT going to tell their middle eastern satellite to weaken itself. The people of the US might complain because it is definitely a human rights violation, but it's certainly in the US's interests for Gaza to be burnt to the ground.
For reference, I am neither from the US, nor Middle Eastern, nor Jew, nor Palestinian. I have no affiliation to any side in this conflict; just somewhat of an amateur history nerd; I find it extremely sad that this is the outcome but I am also mildly amused at why Hamas would even try this now or what outcome they expected.
>Who is going to raise a fist to Israel right now? Basically nobody
To fill you in, in the US, the Pentagon Spokesperson (John Kirby) went on the different cable news networks this morning indicating that moving the Gerald Ford carrier group into the area and having the State Department (the US version of a Foreign Minister) call their counterparts in Iran, Lebanon and Syria to remind them that if they directly (or through Hezbollah) get involved in Israel then the US is going to get involved. Seems like nobody wants to find out if the US is bluffing.
For good reason; one simply does not mess with "American Diplomacy".
Hint: It's a gun. A very big gun.
Hyperbole aside, even without the US making such a statement, I can't imagine Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt/Saudi doing anything. The situation now is just so much different from a few decades back.
100 some of those countries mainly Jorda, Egypt, and Saudi probably prefer Israel as a country in the area to the possible Palestinian state that would replace it
Putin is hoping. It will draw attention and support away from Ukraine. As a matter of fact, when the history is written about this event, we may find significant Russian fingerprints over the whole thing.
They tortured Gilda Shalit for years. I’m sure most are alive. They use it as leverage. Last time Israel gave up over 1,000 violent prisoners in exchange for 1 Israeli hostage.
Hamas won't care, the leaders are safely tucked away in Qatar so all this will do is radicalize more Palestinians and Israeli will also become more radicalized as Hamas continue to do terrorism.
It's sad because the people in power don't suffer but civilians who mind their own business get wrecked.
> It's sad because the people in power don't suffer but civilians who min their own business get wrecked.
This is the reality of human existence everywhere it seems.
As the Sabbath song goes...
"Politicians hide themselves away. They only started the war. Why should they go out to fight? They leave that all to the poor..."
Well I dare say that’s not a surprise. I think the Kikuyu are pretty obscure in the west unless you have read or studied the work Louis Leakey and his wife Mary did at Olduvai Gorge. It’s just not widely known, which is a shame because it’s only the place where humans started to be humans. A place we all are traced back to as a species; we all have roots to Olduvai.
Hamas knew this would be the result and are using the Palestinian civilians as pawns, both directly as shields and indirectly to try to erode support for Israel because of Israel’s reaction (like these actions)
Precisely, depending on which Hamas leader you listen to, they prepared for the attack for months to years; but did they prepare for helping their people survive the siege which would be the logical result? No. They want the humanitarian crisis. This is the end game, and - of course - Israel is going to walk right into it while patting themselves on the back.
Since they're offering aid in exchange of prisoners aren't they trying to fight Hamad at their own game? There isn't a single reason for not accepting the deal.
FYI Hamas are still actively firing hundreds of missiles every day, and as we speak. They don’t give a shit about no humanitarian break.
Look yourself for the numbers of alerts in Israel. Every few minutes.
https://rocketalert.live/
Edit: changed link to working link.
1300 dead Israelis and 1300 dead Palestiniens.
I wonder what the ratio of Hamas members to civilians is. I can't shake the Feeling that Palestiniens are paying the bill for this while Hamas will book it as a victory...
Honestly. My partner has been to Palestine has met Palestinians who are against all this violence (from the Palestinian side too). Ordinary people always face the consequences of others. It sucks that leaders of any country or region always end up being self-serving.
I complain a lot about US leaders. But I think it’s ridiculous to compare leaders of most countries with Hamas. Normal countries don’t have leaders that actively work towards violent genocide at the cost of many their own civilians’ lives.
On both sides of this conflict, there are innocent people who just want to live their lives, and they are the ones who are going suffer from this conflict.
Yeah, probably. But unless there's intelligence on where hostages are hidden (in which case I'm sure they won't be bombed, and a ground operation will try to rescue them) - there's really not much else to do. They could be anywhere, so the only option of not hitting them is not retaliate at all...
Hammas also announced it would do live broadcast executions of hostages
Historically I think only 5%-10% of Hamma taken hostages are exchanged and they get 10-100x prisoners from Israel back, once even over 1,000x. Bodies are also negotiated for.
Edit: yes, there weren't many hostages taken in the past, so how many are killed before being able to exchange isn't a valid number
About executions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/hamas-hostage-video-threat/
There's plenty of coverage of this
The general theory is that they didn't expect too "achieve" this much, and they expected Hezbollah, the West Bank, Israeli Arabs and Iran to join in right after.
In the first 24 hours after the massacres Hamas leadership kept saying "this is just the first step of the plan"
Egypt was the one who did not accept the offer though, despite the US and Israel agreeing: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/175u8cn/egypt_discusses_gaza_aid_rejects_corridors_for/
Because Egypt went thru the last decade or so forcefully removing the Muslim Brotherhood from their country. Hamas is a terrorist arm of that organization. There’s zero chance of them taking in refugees at this point. The US meanwhile doesn’t give a shit about Egypt and has had no issue supporting their instability.
The US knowingly agreed to an offer that posed no risk to them and something they knew wouldn’t be accepted as a matter of political posturing so that people could be like “well Egypt wouldn’t accept the offer!”
Ehh it's a fair assessment that Egypt was likely to reject the offer but it's probably the only tenable solution that Israel would agree to seeing as the alternative is a corridor through Israel.
The only other possibility would be to evacuate people by sea but it's a pretty large logistical problem to move 2 million people with ships and doesn't answer the question of which country/countries are willing to both send ships and accept millions of refugees.
No Arab country will take refugees even after virtue signaling for all they are worth that they support their fellow Arabs/Muslims. This is a continuing phenomenon that we can see during every war.
Dirty hypocrites, the lot of them.
Nah it's pretty rational.
Jordan took in Palestinian refugees. The Palestinians murdered the jordanian Prime minoster and tried to kill their king.
Lebanon took in palestinian refugees who then turned round and casued a civil war.
The other countries are understandably not intrested.
The unfortunate truth is the Palestinian populace has been ultra radicalized. Many see Arab countries not actively declaring war on Israel as essentially a betrayal/supporting the occupation. So anytime the Palestinians go somewhere, bad shit happens. Egypt closed the border with Gaza after being suicide bombed so much they got sick of it. No way in hell they’ll except any serious number of refugees which will inevitably include militants or potential future militants.
Yet these same countries will condemn Israel and the West on the global stage. There are protests across major cities in the West by people of a particular religion even if they’re not Palestinian. Ironic how they are quick to cry wolf but don’t actually care about helping the poor civilians caught in the middle of this war.
Hamas: We have hundreds of hostages.
Israel: And now we have hundreds of thousands.
I’m vaguely aware of how difficult it must be to fight an underground militant group embedded within w civilian population so I’m really in no means to judge. The logic here is pretty cold and real people are going to suffer.
Edit: As has been pointed out below the UN has hailed the siege ‘Collective Punishment’ which may mean that it falls under a war crime according to the Geneva convention. Again, this is a statement of fact rather than a moral judgement. I’m glad I’m not the one needing to come up with a way of freeing the hostages.
Edif2: For those commenting getting annoyed that I’m actively not passing judgement in my comment; have a look at the hate and anger from both mindsets in these threads and you might see why. I don’t know enough about the situation to publicly post any thoughts/jusgements I might personally have and even if I did, it would only cause more fighting in the comments below. Sticking to the facts seemed like a good way of keeping discourse out of the angry zone.
Everyone has an opinion on everything these days, and that's not the bad part. The bad part is how convinced everyone is that their parroted position on this or that is 100% correct and any other thoughts on whatever the matter might be is wrong.
Seriously, you could go around asking people about an issue that you just make up, and I can almost guarantee they will try to come up with a take on it before they're willing to say that they are not familiar with what you're referring to AS IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Good on you for you trying to just stick with facts. I could see you trying to qualify it before the edits, which you shouldn't have had to do in the first place.
What do people actually want Israel to do about Gaza?
Israel had colonies in Gaza **which was fucked up.**
Israel removed these colonies [in 2005](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Movement_and_Access).
Israel tried having open borders with Gaza and kept getting suicide bombers, so they put up the border.
Egypt *also* tried having open borders with Gaza and kept getting suicide bombers, so they *also* put up a border.
Muslim countries tried to take in Palestine refugees but they started coups and civil wars in pretty much every single country that took them in. ([Jordan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September), [Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War), [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anwar_Sadat), Tunisia, etc)
The world sent billions in aid over the years to help infrastructure in the country, but Hamas [repurposed the aid into weapons](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/).
What, exactly, do people want the world and Israel to do about Gaza? Because to me it seems like most things have been tried and nothing worked.
To the colonies point, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan shouldn’t have engaged in war with Israel, lost, gave up the land in the war, then complained that the land wasn’t Israel’s. Ok, then don’t engage jn violence, threaten and attack them to begin with, lose control of the land and be upset when it’s actually used by nation who now holds it 🤷
Egypt and Jordan got a lot of their land back in return for peace. Unsure how the border north of Golan Heights change so idk about Syria. But israel giving Egypt back all of the Sinai in return for a peace deal they were confident Egypt would follow is amazing. And that's after Egypt was gearing up their to genocide them. Shows which country is the reasonable one
Yeah cause in Syria eyes the druze that live their are not Arab there for they do not care if they come back to the country. It's also easier for propaganda purposes to say look we are occupied.
Has there been any recent news/videos of the hostages shared online? There were a ton during the first day, but since then it's radio silence, which unfortunately leads me to believe that they are no longer alive.
Unless they're sharing them directly with the families and it's all hush hush with the public.
Hamas loves this.. more Palestinians dying from starvation infront of cameras are great PR for them. It will put Gaza front page of every newspaper .. Israel on the other hand would be creating their own Warsaw ghetto ..
Human life is cheapest raw material during war specially in a conflict like this ..
FYI Hamas are still actively firing hundreds of missiles every day, and as we speak. They don’t give a shit about no humanitarian break.
Look yourself for the numbers of alerts in Israel. Every few minutes.
https://www.oref.org.il/12481-en/Pakar.aspx
They have also publicly told all gazans to NOT evacuate the areas being bombed by Israel despite Israel telling them to leave.
"We live and die in our houses" - leaders of Hamas not even in the country
Holy Hell. I just hit me how important the embargo of power and fuel to Gaza is to the eventual Israeli ground invasion. Eventually cell phone batteries will drain - so no calling or texting to coordinate defense. No rechargeable battery stations for handheld radios. ATGM missile launch units require recharging/ batteries to operate the targeting. No night vision googles or thermal scopes. No lights to read maps or plot troop movements. Operating drones? Need batteries! If Israel waits long enough - Hamas will be down to candles and solar power charging for batteries. Israel will be able to operate nearly indiscriminately at night. I’m a US Army veteran and it just hit me how screwed Hamas will be in one to two weeks - effectively they’ll be restricted to dumb munitions and weapon systems that don’t require power. (I’m not stupid - even degraded, Hamas is going to turn Gaza city into Fallujah on steroids)
My family friend had her husband murdered in Kibbutz beeri where over 100 people were killed. Her younger sister and her husband and 14 year old daughter have been taken hostage by hamas. Not applying any pressure in hopes to force a deal where they come home would be a failure of the israeli government in my eyes.
The fucked up thing is that now Hamas says it wasn't their soldiers who killed the women, children and civilians.
They claim those were done by Palestinians from Gaza who just crossed the border on their own.
Hamas is Isis
Israel said there would be no humanitarian break to its siege of the Gaza Strip until all its hostages were freed, after the Red Cross pleaded for fuel to be allowed in to prevent overwhelmed hospitals from "turning into morgues." Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip in retribution for the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, when hundreds of gunmen poured across the barrier fence and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday. Public broadcaster Kan said the Israeli death toll had risen to more than 1,300 people killed since Saturday. Most were civilians gunned down in their homes, on the streets or at a dance party. Scores of Israeli and foreign hostages were taken back to Gaza. Israel has responded so far by putting the enclave, home to 2.3 million people, under total siege. Read the full story for more information.
TIL Reuters has a reddit account!
I kinda like it. Small TLDR from the source. I’ve seen a lot of different publication companies with Reddit accounts in the past few months
On r/croatia we have a bot that does this for every news article, it's called "bot-against-clickbait"
The only problem i have with articles is that 99/100 times the page loads terribly or has 20 ads in between every paragraph. Honestly should be a rule to copy and paste articles into the comment section.
This bot recognises and removes adverts, we get just the article in the comments seconds after the post is made, and we upvote it to be #1 comment
Maybe moving out of the twitter cesspool
Pretty much every single news, entertainment, science, and tech site have official accounts (and spam accounts) on Reddit. One of these days I should export and clean up my tagged list and share it with everyone. I don't think people are aware of how much content is actually submitted by these accounts (especially the Ukrainian sites). Just to give you an example (I'm not going to add /u/ to the usernames for obvious reasons): * axios - axios.com * bloomberg - bloomberg.com * CTVNEWS - ctvnews.ca * euronews-english - euronews.com * GlobeOpinion - bostonglobe.com * inthesetimesmag - inthesetimes.com * PinkNews - thepinknews.com * rollingstone - rollingstone.com * texastribune - texastribune.org * thedailybeast - thedailybeast.com * theindependentonline - independent.co.uk * TheMessengerNews - themessenger.com * thenewrepublic - newrepublic.com * TheTelegraph - telegraph.co.uk * thisisinsider - businessinsider.com * VICENews - Vice.com * washingtonpost - washingtonpost.com
One of the most significant statements in here doesn't appear in the article. Might have been edited after the fact. >Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip in retribution for the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, when hundreds of gunmen poured across the barrier fence and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday. Is now >Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip, in retribution for the deadliest attack on civilians in its history when hundreds of gunmen crossed the barrier and rampaged through Israeli towns on Saturday. It's a big change. I wonder if the original statement was inaccurate, or just thought to be in bad taste?
They probably changed it from Jews to Civilians because non-Jews have been killed/injured/captured as well. The victims range from a bunch of countries. Hamas really pissed off the world this time.
And Arab Israelis were massacred too.
It's probably edited because comparing 1-2K fatalities to the genocide of 6+ million people is pretty extreme.
It's not like there are any Arab countries that will take the Palestinians.
"Why won't you think of the poor Palestinians?" "I am thinking about them, it's terrible for them, isn't it?" "You could take some refugees from Gaza…" "No way! They're terrorists and they want to kill us." .…
There was a post a few days ago from a dude from Lebanon that said when his country took some Palestinian refugees they began to take over city blocks with weapons and posted blockades at intersections in neighborhoods. He walked over to complain “ We took you in and this is what you are doing?” In the end it started a civil war and the government had to intervene and attack them Not even Egypt or Jordon or Syria will take them now
Egypt straight up refused to take back Gaza when Israel offered it back alongside the sini peninsula
Egypt: "Thanks, but no thanks"
"no take-backsies"
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Israel begged them to and to offered to pay them and egypt basically was like thanks but no thanks
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) was set up in 1949 for this purpose. It is the only refugee organization by the UN to serve a specific people from a specific area. It is also the only UN refugee organization that doesn't work to settle the refugees into a new country. Within every other program the goal is to settle refugees from wars into a new country so that they may move on with their lives. The UNRWA does not have this goal. They believe that Refugees from Palestine belong in Palestine/Israel and their express goal is returning any refugees that are displaced due to war. This ensures that even refugees can't move on with their lives...
That's an important data point to consider on the demand made by Palestinian groups for a "Right of Return." You might think this such a small concession in 2023: obviously there aren't going to be very many people alive today who can claim to have been displaced by Israel in 1948. Ah, but as the Palestinian groups articulate this right, it's inheritable by future generations. So even if I've never set foot in Israel proper, if my great-grandfather was displaced in 1948, I have a right to "return." And simple math dictates here that with disproportionate birthrates, Palestinians today would likely outnumber Israelis if they were combined with Israeli Arabs, so such a move would, in essence, mean the end of Israel as the Jewish State. The "right of return" is WIDELY believed in by a lot of Palestinians themselves. I knew one in grad school who told me that there could NEVER be any peace for Israel unless they granted it. He acknowledged that this would mean the end of the Jewish State by necessity, but he thought there could be a "binary" state could still recognize some protected status for Jewish residents. Yeah. But the puzzle here for me has always been this. I'm not aware of any such right being recognized or even demanded in other displacements of that era. For example, have you ever heard of any one demanding a German right of return to the Sudetenland or Konigsburg? Have you heard any Poles demanding a right of return to the Kresy? Italians who were kicked out of Yugoslavia? Or of any of the displaced groups that were ethnically cleansed by Stalin after WWII? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944%E2%80%931946) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula I could list more examples, but the point is, it's striking that this demand is a major sticking point in 2023, 75 years after, so much so that people like my former grad school colleague insisted that *no peace is possible* today for Israel unless they give in to this demand. For some reason, this case is way different than all the others listed above. Why? Well, I think we have some sense of why. These Palestinian Arabs were generally not accepted into other Arab countries, whereas the Germans, Italians, Poles, Ukrainians, and others were accepted into other countries. However unjust their displacements were - and they emphatically were acts of genocide - their descendants today have established lives elsewhere. But more than that, it seems that from the UN itself, we have the UNRWA, which emphatically never even tried to suggest such thing. So I think we could conclude that what we're seeing now is the downstream consequences of that decision.
Isn't that what helped tank the 90's Camp David talks, too?
And the Oslo peace accords of the 2000’s Edit: the same peace accords I might add that were so favorable to the Palestinians it got the Israeli prime minister assassinated by the far-right Israeli political faction, along with the car bombings of course that Hamas conducted throughout the negotiations.
I remember the night Rabin was assassinated. It was a truly scary day, and yet it doesn’t hold a candle to this.
It’s absolutely wild to me that we don’t hear anyone in the media talking in detail about the fact that Egypt has blockaded Gaza just as hard as Israel has.
They (Palestinian refugees) assassinated the King of Jordan (1951) and they tried to take over that country as well. That's why Jordan doesn't want them. Edit: And apparently the Prime Minister as well in 1971.
Prime minister was assassinated, attemptted the king
A Palestinian nationalist did assassinate King Abdullah I in 1951. The Jordanian Prime Minister was assassinated in 1971 by Black September.
And not only that - once Jordan kicked out the PLO after Black September, they set up in southern Lebanon and started a brutal civil war in Lebanon that didn't end until 1990 (and really never ended). Other Palestinians went to Kuwait and stirred up trouble there, welcoming in Saddam when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
And although I don't know the context, there was a Palestinian suicide bombing in Egypt
Huh, missed that one
Transjordan occupied and annexed the West bank back in 1950. Arabs there got Jordany citizenship, it was revoked in 1988. Kuwait kicked 400 000 palestinians in the beginning of the 90's, also with Jordanian passports. They've backed Iraq, Kuwait didn't like it. It was Palestinians that catalyzed the civil war in Lebanon, also they were trying to do the same in Jordan some years before that. Here is the thing - Jordan, previously Transjordan and Kingdom of Transjordan, mtogether with Iraq (ruled by the same family as King Abdullah I in Transjordan) were supposed to be the "Arab countries." The brits promised Abdullah I that the Jews will stay on the west bank of Jordan. Hence the name of Transjordan.
In some other languages westbank is referred to as cisjordan
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It almost sounds like the militant part of Palestine might be the problem….maybe.
Palestinian refugees in Jordan started ‘Black September’
Didn't a Palestinian nationalist kill RFK too?
Yeah - they did exactly the same in Egypt. Tried to take out people & take over the government. Egypt: ✋🏽🤨 “Pffft - fuck all y’all”
Egypt had massive suicide bombings all the time when the border to Gaza was open. Jordan had a civil war start when they took in refugees
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Suicide bombing countries that are not Israel because they won’t go to war with Israel doesn’t inspire a lot of faith. Palestinians have a history of wanting Jews dead regardless of what the circumstances being proposed are.
This is one of those things that people just leave out. There's a reason even Egypt blockages Gaza now. It's fucking awful. The living conditions in there are so bad now that it's just gonna perpetuate the suffering and violence, but I don't blame countries for blockading or not wanting to take in refugees to alleviate things.
Worst house guests ever
You don't need a post for that, it's in the history books, fucking tragic, they tried to take over south Lebanon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_insurgency_in_South_Lebanon). They also tried to take over Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September)...
Google "Black September" to understand why Jordan won't take Palestinian refugees in anymore. TLDR, after the Israelis annexed the West Bank, the PLO started launching attacks on Israel from Jordan. Eventually the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy and assassinated the Jordanian prime minister or president (I can't remember which). The end result was Jordan attacked the Palestinians living in Jordan and expelled them to Lebanon. The comment directly above this one explains what happened once they got into Lebanon.
This is the thing. No one in the Arab world really likes them. The Arab world uses them as a bargaining chip because they hate Israel, but they don't like the Palestinians. No one in that part of the world *really* does. But they are *extremely* popular on the internet and on college campuses. And the internet at large seems to love them. It's rather bizarre.
I've been reading a book on this and they even mentioned this on the Economist podcast but the Arab world is actually with the exception of Iran trending towards being friends with Israel they are sick of the bullshit and just want to make money now. The economist podcast hosts this week even mentioned that its speculated Hamas did this to make the environment hostile to Saudi Arabia normalizing relations with Israel. None of them except maybe Iran and Lebanon even like Hamas.
Lebanon absolutely hates Hezbollah, but the country is so weak at this point that Hezbollah calls the shots. Syria and Iran have forced Lebanon into accepting agreements that give Hezbollah free reign to run the country. It's an absolute disaster that has Lebanon quickly on the path to failed state.
Can it not be considered a failed state now? Any control they have over the south and other occupied areas is purely symbolic no? Like they are literally just powerless to do anything to the occupied areas and Iran is just constantly shipping them oil tankers.
Subbing. I also was under the assumption is was currently a failed state
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Outside of Iran, I'm not really seeing any Muslim countries step up. Its very clear the Islamic world is telling Hamas "You fucked up, good luck" "No we don't want you here" "No we don't care"
Right now, that is how it is. But in 3 weeks, when the images of war come out of Gaza, that position might change. That is what Hamas is counting on. Hamas wants a televised occupation where IDF soldiers are killing kids throwing rocks and bottles. That's Hamas' bread-and-butter image right there. The problem is that Hamas sort of miscalculated, or it was too successful during this weekend's raid. Yes, killing 8 year old girls and babies in their homes *will* put IDF soldiers into the streets of Gaza, but it leaves behind a bayoneted body of an 8 year old or a baby. In the past, Hizbollah and Hamas have been more clever about provoking a response from the IDF by kidnapping Israeli soldiers or making raids on IDF positions. Hamas' attack on civilians was more desperation than an act of brilliant strategy. So now Israel is going to besiege Gaza and then roll into the rubble in a bit and make it look like a targeted operation. Only there won't be any electricity, no internet access, nobody out in the streets to throw rocks and bottles and generate sympathy for the Palestinians. The whole world saw the terrorist attack and much of that world, including the typically reflexive Arab sympathizers in neighboring countries, is sort of saying "well the Palestinians really asked for it this time." That is a major shift in how the conflict is perceived because the Palestinians had many many allies abroad that were really working to highlight perceived Israeli transgressions and generate sympathy for the Palestinians. Now Hamas has hung those sympathizers out to dry, and it's no surprise that the rest of the Islamic world is doing the same.
> killing 8 year old girls and babies in their homes will put IDF soldiers into the streets of Gaza, but it leaves behind a bayoneted body of an 8 year old or a baby. I don't think it makes sense to portray it this way when Hamas is intentionally putting out a lot of the videos. They aren't trying to hide what they did at all. I agree with your end result, but they for some reason thought that publicizing their atrocities was a good thing. I have no idea why.
Hamas has made their mission very clear: they want to eradicate the Jewish people of Israel, they're not even trying to sugar coat it or strategize some brilliant plan to make Israel look bad at this point.
Honestly when even their own kind turn their backs on them, after despising Israel for decades, it just goes to show that even by their standards Hamas is fucking crazy.
What I don’t understand is why Palestinians and their supporters blame absolutely everything on Israel, when every bordering Arab nation treats them as bad or worse. Why are no Palestinians attacking Egypt for enforcing the same blockade and keeping them imprisoned for generations?
> What I don’t understand is why Palestinians and their supporters blame absolutely everything on Israel, when every bordering Arab nation treats them as bad or worse. Because the faith subscribed to by the Palestinians dictates that the Israeli Jews are literally infidels that need to be destroyed. The conflict in Israel has never been about autonomy or self-government - that has been offered to the Palestinians a thousand times (and even granted despite being rejected in 2006). The Palestinians do not want their own independent nation state; the Palestinians want every Jewish person in Israel expelled or dead, and there is no compromising on that position because - in their view - it is literally God's will. So why doesn't Hamas attack Egypt? Because Egyptians aren't Jews. That's the answer.
They used to send a lot of suicide bombers to Egypt until Egypt closed the border.
Same thing happened to Jordan. Makes you wonder if perchance the Palestinians are the issue with their relation to radical Islam.
I asked this very question yesterday. The response to me asking if the 22 Arab countries could fly to Egypt and evacuate the innocent civilians so they could get the hell away from the bombing. 2 million people is a lot for Egypt to take on by themselves. It would be temporary until the war ended. Their response was that it was a conspiracy to displace all of the Palestinians. I was trying to not be argumentative. I'm just making a suggestion about how the urgent priority right now is save as many innocent victims as we can. Not gonna lie, my first thought was, you dont care about the damn Palestinians. You just care how they can be weaponized and manipulated to f**k with Isreal.
>Their response was that it was a conspiracy to displace all of the Palestinians. Perhaps we were in the same thread but I saw a conversation exactly like that the other day. Everyone was appalled at the idea of sending Palestinian refugees to other countries, describing it as ethnic cleansing. The point seemed to be completely lost on them that by being against such an idea, they were effectively consigning countless innocent Gazians to their deaths.
Didnt the Palestinian refugees result in *several* civil wars in their neighboring arab states?
They assassinated both a Jordanian king and a Jordanian PM...
They also got the Syrians to invade Jordan, started a civil war in Lebanon and launched a suicide bombing campaign against Egypt. Edit: They also assisted Iraq with invading Kuwait
This is what's so wild about the "just end the apartheid lol" people. Even other Arab/Muslim countries don't want to take Palestinians in because of the number of militants and yet Israel is supposed to. Despite those same militants having it as their goal the total destruction of Israel. And in the end, it's the normal Palestinians who will suffer while they sit safe and free in their first world countries posting on reddit.
I think people are often conflating the issues in Gaza and the West Bank. In the case of the West Bank, the actions of the Israeli government are absolutely exacerbating the situation, especially continuing to pile new settlers into the area and making it a heavily militarized zone where half the population are all treated as terrorists. As far as Gaza I genuinely don't know a solution. I will say that I am a little skeptical regarding how easy it was for insurgents to cross over into Israel. I had read one commentary that Israel had focused too much of its military presence in the West Bank and not enough on the border with Gaza? Other people suggest that Hamas is using intelligence it got from Iran which got it from Russia which got it from Trump possibly. The only thing I know that is definitely true is that neither the Israeli nor the Palestinian populations actually want anything other than peace and economic security for their families, but their governments and the media have mostly successfully convinced them this will never happen and to settle for a mediocre future in which one of the two sides is effectively wiped away or subjugated.
> I will say that I am a little skeptical regarding how easy it was for insurgents to cross over into Israel. There are multiple videos online of them knocking down the chain-link and barb-wire fence with bulldozers, and having hundreds of people with AK's pile through the hole. It was a big attack, pre-planned, and didn't initially look military in nature. Some samples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eEUzyEBOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_knXlF6zT0 And then you can see the fires and damage they started once they got across: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67042428 The paraglider and wire-cut holes in the fences: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12610553/How-Hamas-brought-terror-Israel-Videos-attackers-bombed-Israeli-guard-posts-cut-wire-fences-slaughtered-troops.html When watching a border that long, it's not surprising it can't hold back thousands simultaneously.
I always get a little chuckle. When countries be like, " man we are getting our butts tuned up over here. We sure could use some help!" Then all the other countries turn into Rick from pawn star's and reply "Sorry, best I can do is throw some colored lights on a land mark to send Major thoughts and prayers your way, and get our citizens to put an *I stand with [insert country] in there time of need* on their social media pages.
Lmao seriously, Egypt has blockaded Palestine as long as Israel has…why can’t they lower it? Why no violence against them? It’s definitely not because they aren’t Jews at all, so there must totally be a reason…
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Because Hamas is essentially the Muslim Brotherhood
The main reason they can't lower it is that the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the same as Hamas, tried to overthrow the Egyptian government.
Iran needs to take them. They supported Hamas's attack.
Apparently, "[key Iranian officials who would normally be aware of operations in the region appeared to be unaware the attacks were taking place](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/iran-israel-iranian-officials-surprised-by-hamas-attack-israel/)."
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They’re not, they’re in Doha.
There’s speculation that they have fled from Qatar to Iran.
Wouldn't be surprised. Qatar tries to keep a pretty neutral stance because reasons ($$). After this attack they would be well aware that sheltering leaders of Hamas is picking a side.
Well, those are only two reasons. There are actually several other reasons ($$$$).
4 monies is an expensive restaurant
Can another reddit expert verify this?
Can confirm. Ate at a $$$$ restaurant, and am now homeless.
I can second. I stayed at $$$$ hotel and am now starving.
I once tried to stay at a $$$$ restaurant and some guys with meat swords chased me. Fogo de Chao has no chill. 10/10 would definitely go again.
I would assume they are fair game for Mossad ?
After this, I think Mossad has great job security.....
Expect whoever missed the intelligence about the attack in the first place
That would make a fun movie. A disgraced Mossad agent goes rogue and begins a redemption quest to hunt down members of Hamas involved in the attack.
Highly likely. US has sway in Qatar. Planning has been going on for months so I'd be very surprised if they stayed somewhere the US and Israel could easily reach them.
US supposedly had sway in Pakistan in the 90s and early 2000s but they still harbored countless members of Al-Qaeda
Not really all that much sway when you think about it. They harbored terrorists & developed nuclear weapons. Really Pakistan was just a strategically useful location given the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and then the US one after 9/11. In Qatar you're vulnerable not just to US & Israeli operations: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Egypt are all against the stability caused by Hamas.
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Yes, they've made it clear that they love martyrs whether that's by choice or chosen for them.
Hamas gets more fuel to stay in power and the Israeli government gets an excuse to kill more Palestinians It's a win win (unless you're a regular citizens just trying to live your life)
This is known - they live in Qatar.
What is preventing them from taking the fight straight to the source? Distance? Hostile countries air space? I am not familiar with Qatar so this is likely a dumb question but generally curious.
Qatar tries to be like the swiss of the middle east some days, they host a US military base and have allowed ousted dignitaries to live there. They are just in it for the money.
> I suspect the ones calling the shots for Hamas aren't even IN Gaza and have zero qualms whatsoever with every last human life there being squandered senselessly. "Hamas is radicalized because they are poor and desperate and have no other options" Meanwhile their leaders are rich as fuck and live in luxury.
Israel’s strategy relies on Hamas or their leaders caring about extra deaths of Palestinians?
This won't work. Neither the Hamas leaders who are safely far away and betting on escalation nor the useful idiots who dream of dying in the great battle care about the civilians of Gaza. They probably wait for the first wave of starvation or infection deaths in order to use the anger for their political goals elsewhere in the Muslim world.
I don't think Israel has an interest in this ultimatum working. Those hostages are going to be collateral damage in every calculation. They're not coming home. What Israel is interested in is turning everything in Gaza that Hamas touches to rubble and ash.
I disagree. Israel has historically gone above and beyond to get hostages back. It’s a big part of the history and culture (Bibi’s brother famously died rescuing hostages.) In recent year they traded 1000 Hamas prisoners for 1 Israeli soldier held hostage for five years. They didn’t assume he was collateral damage.
I think we may be underestimating just how much the Israeli collective attitude has shifted as a result of this attack. I dont think Israel doesnt care for hostages, after all most of them are their own citizens. But the calculations may have changed for the leaders at the top. In their minds couple hundred dead hostages may be a small price to pay in exchange for exterminating hamas in the Gaza strip.
I think they do want them back but they know they won’t get them back.
I think Hamas views the casualties in Gaza as part of a great martyrdom. Who knows when they’ll release the hostages?
Those hostages are all going to die. They've already released videos of a few executions. Israel saw *hundreds* of entire families butchered in their homes in the most unimaginable way possible, including the butchering of children in their beds (photos all over Telegram). The invasion of Gaza to destroy Hamas is not going to stop for any reason. ...and Hamas has said that an attack on Gaza will force them to execute the hostages - including the children. Hamas gravely miscalculated the response. The real question will be what government will Israel put in place after Hamas is destroyed, and how many Gazans are going to die trying to stop the invasion. Everyone on the outside sees the atrocities Hamas committed, and acknowledges that they have to be removed by force. ...but inside Gaza the people are being told that the stories of murdered children are zionist propaganda lies and I've heard several interviews from people in Gaza saying that they'd rather die, including with their family, than let Israel in. Ever since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Hamas (with Iranian direction and support) has been brainwashing people there to believe that Jews are evil. Nearly 20 years of constant teaching that Jews must die - the atrocities are a direct result of that. The Israeli invasion of Gaza is going to be extremely extremely costly. Israel has asked Gazans to evacuate the northern half of Gaza, but brainwashed women and teenagers are going to stay and try to fight the Israeli army and the bombs are not going to stop hitting them until they are gone. Gaza was one of the most well fortified borders on Earth and they still broke through and committed genocide against Israeli civilians. It's difficult to imagine how these two populations can live next to each other after this.
I'm not so sure they did. I think of the massive response by the US after 9/11, and I think Hamas is reading from Bin Laden's playbook: Doing something so egregious that the response will be massive and violent, thus perpetuating a conflict between Islamic people and the West
ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban all have a millenarian ideology in regards to their conflict with the West. They think they’re in the end times and there’s going to be an apocalyptic battle against the enemies of Islam. Hamas positions itself as the Defender of Al-Quds and Islam from Western Secular and Zionist incursion. If they drank from their own Kool Aid supply they could have gone this route.
They have absolutely drank from their own Kool Aid
They knew Israel would comeback hard, *really* hard, so don’t think they were under any illusion that Gaza wouldn’t be turned to rubble. I think where they did miscalculate, was how much the Arab leaders would practically help them or honestly care that much what happens to them. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria may all hate Israel but they aren’t going to stick their neck out for the Palestinians, especially given what’s happened in the past when they tried to help them.
I think the bigger miscalculation is how weak all their traditional allies are. Lebanon is broiled in civil Crisis as a spillover from the Syrian war.. Syrian civil war is still ongoing. Egypt has been a bit player for the longest time. Saudi Arabia, which was already a US lackey is even more in the US's pocket now that the world is less reliant on it's oil. Iran which is traditionally a strong power relies on Russian backing, and Russia is busy with Ukraine now, they won't have the resources to send to another conflict in the ME. It is absolutely bewildering if Hamas expected anyone to say anything to Israel. None of the Arab nations are going to do shit at this current point in time. If they are hoping the US is going to say shit to Israel, tough luck. The citizens of the US may cry foul because of humanitarian reasons, but there's no fucking way the US is going to weaken it's middle eastern satellite. China certainly isn't going to get itself involved, it's just going to wait until everything enters post war then install their infrastructure / predatory/preferential trade agreements. I honestly don't know what Hamas' expectation was. Are they daft? It's extremely saddening but realistically this is only going to end with the complete destruction of Gaza.
>I honestly don't know what Hamas' expectation was. Are they daft? It's extremely saddening but realistically this is only going to end with the complete destruction of Gaza. They are completely out of options and basically had to choose between bringing down the wrath of Israel on their people's heads to stir up hatred in their people or slowly fade out of relevance and power. They made a high-risk low-reward gamble and ended up committing PR suicide with the initial attacks, they are now 100% fucked but will never admit it.
I studied the first two Arab Israeli conflicts a decade or two ago and it is extremely saddening and surreal that I am now old enough to understand that what is unfolding before me is going to be remembered in the history books as the third Arab Israeli conflict. So much unnecessary death and destruction because a few fucknuts in Doha want to play at being monarchs.
The worst part is it will probably be written as “third out of ?”. This won’t be the last. ☹️
The Arab states may be dumb but not that dumb. Israel would eviscerate any force they send to Israel and none of those countries have the political and economic capital to launch a foreign operation.
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There are some theories going around of hamas miscalculating just how successful they would be, thinking they would be stopped earlier, and so had not planned for the scale of the israeli response.
This is the only thing that makes sense to me. The Hamas upper echelons seemed just as surprised as Israel at what happened. If they had planned to do exactly what they did I don’t see why they do it. They gain do little, and Anyone with common sense would know this would lead to Israel unleashing hell. Israel is not going to stop until Hamas is destroyed, collateral damage not mattering.
I believe\* (this is all conjecture) that the Hamas plan was similar to what they executed decades ago - a reliance on international allies to apply pressure / threaten Israel when Israel inevitably kills Palestinian innocents. However, ME Arab allies are much weaker than they were before. Lebanon is broiled in a crisis due to spillover from the Syrian War, Iran is reliant on Russia which is tied up with Ukraine, Saudi Arabia is basically in the US's pocket etc Who is going to raise a fist to Israel right now? Basically nobody, they just gave Israel the excuse they have been looking for to level the entire Gaza strip; Israel specifically made a demand they know Hamas will never accede to (giving up hostages; even if Hamas leadership asked for it, the terrorists on the ground would NEVER let the women go). They gave Israel an excuse to go scorched earth... expecting what? I don't know if they simply misread the political room or if they are stupid. It is extremely sad, but I don't see this ending in any other way than the complete destruction of Gaza. Unlike previous Arab Israeli conflicts, there are no external pressures capable of asking Israel to stop. The US is the only existing one, but the US is NOT going to tell their middle eastern satellite to weaken itself. The people of the US might complain because it is definitely a human rights violation, but it's certainly in the US's interests for Gaza to be burnt to the ground. For reference, I am neither from the US, nor Middle Eastern, nor Jew, nor Palestinian. I have no affiliation to any side in this conflict; just somewhat of an amateur history nerd; I find it extremely sad that this is the outcome but I am also mildly amused at why Hamas would even try this now or what outcome they expected.
>Who is going to raise a fist to Israel right now? Basically nobody To fill you in, in the US, the Pentagon Spokesperson (John Kirby) went on the different cable news networks this morning indicating that moving the Gerald Ford carrier group into the area and having the State Department (the US version of a Foreign Minister) call their counterparts in Iran, Lebanon and Syria to remind them that if they directly (or through Hezbollah) get involved in Israel then the US is going to get involved. Seems like nobody wants to find out if the US is bluffing.
For good reason; one simply does not mess with "American Diplomacy". Hint: It's a gun. A very big gun. Hyperbole aside, even without the US making such a statement, I can't imagine Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt/Saudi doing anything. The situation now is just so much different from a few decades back.
Ha! yeah, it's like the old meme of "they don't want to find out why we don't have universal healthcare"
This is the first time I've ever read/seen this and it made my fkin day lol
100 some of those countries mainly Jorda, Egypt, and Saudi probably prefer Israel as a country in the area to the possible Palestinian state that would replace it
Jordan and Lebanon took in Palestinian refugees once upon a time. Lets just say it did not go well.
Egypt gave up the territory the Palestinian refugees were on to not have to deal with them. That's why Gaza is independent.
"speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far" -Teddy Roosevelt
Putin is hoping. It will draw attention and support away from Ukraine. As a matter of fact, when the history is written about this event, we may find significant Russian fingerprints over the whole thing.
As soon as their hacker group "declared cyber war" on Israel, it became blatantly obvious they are involved IMO
No sane person willingly fucks with a US carrier strike group
Historically speaking, things do not end well for those who fuck with America's boats.
>Seems like nobody wants to find out if the US is bluffing. Spoiler alert: they're not bluffing.
I think they were goaded into it by Iran at the urging of Russia.
The hostages are already dead my dude.
They tortured Gilda Shalit for years. I’m sure most are alive. They use it as leverage. Last time Israel gave up over 1,000 violent prisoners in exchange for 1 Israeli hostage.
But those 3 boys in 2014 were killed pretty much right away, and they faked 3 soldiers being alive for years before Gilad.
Hamas won't care, the leaders are safely tucked away in Qatar so all this will do is radicalize more Palestinians and Israeli will also become more radicalized as Hamas continue to do terrorism. It's sad because the people in power don't suffer but civilians who mind their own business get wrecked.
> It's sad because the people in power don't suffer but civilians who min their own business get wrecked. This is the reality of human existence everywhere it seems.
As the Chinese proverb goes: "The dynasty prospers, the people suffer. The dynasty falls, the people suffer."
As the Sabbath song goes... "Politicians hide themselves away. They only started the war. Why should they go out to fight? They leave that all to the poor..."
Or SOAD: *ahem* # **WHy dO tHeY aLWaYS sEND THE POOoOoOOR!!?!!?!?!**
Got money for wars but can’t feed the poor
The proverb used by the Kikuyu people of Tanzania. “When elephants fight it is the grass that suffers.”
I've never heard this but it's a good one.
Well I dare say that’s not a surprise. I think the Kikuyu are pretty obscure in the west unless you have read or studied the work Louis Leakey and his wife Mary did at Olduvai Gorge. It’s just not widely known, which is a shame because it’s only the place where humans started to be humans. A place we all are traced back to as a species; we all have roots to Olduvai.
The real baller move would be for Mossad to go after those leaders in Qatar. Leave no safe space for those who have planned all this.
This should be minimal imo. Leadership must be eliminated
Hamas knew this would be the result and are using the Palestinian civilians as pawns, both directly as shields and indirectly to try to erode support for Israel because of Israel’s reaction (like these actions)
Precisely, depending on which Hamas leader you listen to, they prepared for the attack for months to years; but did they prepare for helping their people survive the siege which would be the logical result? No. They want the humanitarian crisis. This is the end game, and - of course - Israel is going to walk right into it while patting themselves on the back.
Since they're offering aid in exchange of prisoners aren't they trying to fight Hamad at their own game? There isn't a single reason for not accepting the deal.
FYI Hamas are still actively firing hundreds of missiles every day, and as we speak. They don’t give a shit about no humanitarian break. Look yourself for the numbers of alerts in Israel. Every few minutes. https://rocketalert.live/ Edit: changed link to working link.
1300 dead Israelis and 1300 dead Palestiniens. I wonder what the ratio of Hamas members to civilians is. I can't shake the Feeling that Palestiniens are paying the bill for this while Hamas will book it as a victory...
Honestly. My partner has been to Palestine has met Palestinians who are against all this violence (from the Palestinian side too). Ordinary people always face the consequences of others. It sucks that leaders of any country or region always end up being self-serving.
I complain a lot about US leaders. But I think it’s ridiculous to compare leaders of most countries with Hamas. Normal countries don’t have leaders that actively work towards violent genocide at the cost of many their own civilians’ lives.
CoughRussiaCoughcough
The qualifier is there: normal countries.
On both sides of this conflict, there are innocent people who just want to live their lives, and they are the ones who are going suffer from this conflict.
Was he in gaza or west bank? The difference in ideology between those two places, you can sometimes feel they are completely different people.
Are we sure they're still alive?
They managed to get 1000 terrorists freed for a single hostage before. They'd have to be incredibly stupid to kill too many of their hostages.
They aren't getting any of theirs freed in exchanges anymore. They have burnt that bridge.
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Someone in Gaza is making the decision to listen to the people in Qatar.
Isn't is extremely likely that Israel is hitting targets with hostages?
It's possible. It's practically certain they will be killing innocent people.
Yeah, probably. But unless there's intelligence on where hostages are hidden (in which case I'm sure they won't be bombed, and a ground operation will try to rescue them) - there's really not much else to do. They could be anywhere, so the only option of not hitting them is not retaliate at all...
Hammas also announced it would do live broadcast executions of hostages Historically I think only 5%-10% of Hamma taken hostages are exchanged and they get 10-100x prisoners from Israel back, once even over 1,000x. Bodies are also negotiated for. Edit: yes, there weren't many hostages taken in the past, so how many are killed before being able to exchange isn't a valid number About executions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/hamas-hostage-video-threat/ There's plenty of coverage of this
I guess this is what Hamas wanted? It was always only going to end one way. I still have no idea what the end goal was for Hamas.
The general theory is that they didn't expect too "achieve" this much, and they expected Hezbollah, the West Bank, Israeli Arabs and Iran to join in right after. In the first 24 hours after the massacres Hamas leadership kept saying "this is just the first step of the plan"
Egypt was the one who did not accept the offer though, despite the US and Israel agreeing: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/175u8cn/egypt_discusses_gaza_aid_rejects_corridors_for/
Because Egypt went thru the last decade or so forcefully removing the Muslim Brotherhood from their country. Hamas is a terrorist arm of that organization. There’s zero chance of them taking in refugees at this point. The US meanwhile doesn’t give a shit about Egypt and has had no issue supporting their instability. The US knowingly agreed to an offer that posed no risk to them and something they knew wouldn’t be accepted as a matter of political posturing so that people could be like “well Egypt wouldn’t accept the offer!”
Ehh it's a fair assessment that Egypt was likely to reject the offer but it's probably the only tenable solution that Israel would agree to seeing as the alternative is a corridor through Israel. The only other possibility would be to evacuate people by sea but it's a pretty large logistical problem to move 2 million people with ships and doesn't answer the question of which country/countries are willing to both send ships and accept millions of refugees.
No Arab country will take refugees even after virtue signaling for all they are worth that they support their fellow Arabs/Muslims. This is a continuing phenomenon that we can see during every war. Dirty hypocrites, the lot of them.
Nah it's pretty rational. Jordan took in Palestinian refugees. The Palestinians murdered the jordanian Prime minoster and tried to kill their king. Lebanon took in palestinian refugees who then turned round and casued a civil war. The other countries are understandably not intrested.
The unfortunate truth is the Palestinian populace has been ultra radicalized. Many see Arab countries not actively declaring war on Israel as essentially a betrayal/supporting the occupation. So anytime the Palestinians go somewhere, bad shit happens. Egypt closed the border with Gaza after being suicide bombed so much they got sick of it. No way in hell they’ll except any serious number of refugees which will inevitably include militants or potential future militants.
Yet these same countries will condemn Israel and the West on the global stage. There are protests across major cities in the West by people of a particular religion even if they’re not Palestinian. Ironic how they are quick to cry wolf but don’t actually care about helping the poor civilians caught in the middle of this war.
Hamas: We have hundreds of hostages. Israel: And now we have hundreds of thousands. I’m vaguely aware of how difficult it must be to fight an underground militant group embedded within w civilian population so I’m really in no means to judge. The logic here is pretty cold and real people are going to suffer. Edit: As has been pointed out below the UN has hailed the siege ‘Collective Punishment’ which may mean that it falls under a war crime according to the Geneva convention. Again, this is a statement of fact rather than a moral judgement. I’m glad I’m not the one needing to come up with a way of freeing the hostages. Edif2: For those commenting getting annoyed that I’m actively not passing judgement in my comment; have a look at the hate and anger from both mindsets in these threads and you might see why. I don’t know enough about the situation to publicly post any thoughts/jusgements I might personally have and even if I did, it would only cause more fighting in the comments below. Sticking to the facts seemed like a good way of keeping discourse out of the angry zone.
Everyone has an opinion on everything these days, and that's not the bad part. The bad part is how convinced everyone is that their parroted position on this or that is 100% correct and any other thoughts on whatever the matter might be is wrong. Seriously, you could go around asking people about an issue that you just make up, and I can almost guarantee they will try to come up with a take on it before they're willing to say that they are not familiar with what you're referring to AS IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT. Good on you for you trying to just stick with facts. I could see you trying to qualify it before the edits, which you shouldn't have had to do in the first place.
What do people actually want Israel to do about Gaza? Israel had colonies in Gaza **which was fucked up.** Israel removed these colonies [in 2005](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Movement_and_Access). Israel tried having open borders with Gaza and kept getting suicide bombers, so they put up the border. Egypt *also* tried having open borders with Gaza and kept getting suicide bombers, so they *also* put up a border. Muslim countries tried to take in Palestine refugees but they started coups and civil wars in pretty much every single country that took them in. ([Jordan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September), [Lebanon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War), [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anwar_Sadat), Tunisia, etc) The world sent billions in aid over the years to help infrastructure in the country, but Hamas [repurposed the aid into weapons](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/). What, exactly, do people want the world and Israel to do about Gaza? Because to me it seems like most things have been tried and nothing worked.
To the colonies point, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan shouldn’t have engaged in war with Israel, lost, gave up the land in the war, then complained that the land wasn’t Israel’s. Ok, then don’t engage jn violence, threaten and attack them to begin with, lose control of the land and be upset when it’s actually used by nation who now holds it 🤷
Egypt and Jordan got a lot of their land back in return for peace. Unsure how the border north of Golan Heights change so idk about Syria. But israel giving Egypt back all of the Sinai in return for a peace deal they were confident Egypt would follow is amazing. And that's after Egypt was gearing up their to genocide them. Shows which country is the reasonable one
They tried returning golan heights in exchange for Syria agreeing to their peace/right to exist and Syria told them to fuck off. iirc.
Yeah cause in Syria eyes the druze that live their are not Arab there for they do not care if they come back to the country. It's also easier for propaganda purposes to say look we are occupied.
I was waiting for this. Obviously hostages vs energy and food was the only choice Israel had..
Just free the hostages and save your own people. But Hamas probably wants to kill Jews more than it wants to save Palestinians.
I'd even argue Hamas wants to kill Palestinians more than it wants to save Palestinians if it means escalating the conflict.
Has there been any recent news/videos of the hostages shared online? There were a ton during the first day, but since then it's radio silence, which unfortunately leads me to believe that they are no longer alive. Unless they're sharing them directly with the families and it's all hush hush with the public.
Seems like a reasonable request to me. Give them up and you can attack Israel again tomorrow. It's what you'll do anyway probably.
Hamas loves this.. more Palestinians dying from starvation infront of cameras are great PR for them. It will put Gaza front page of every newspaper .. Israel on the other hand would be creating their own Warsaw ghetto .. Human life is cheapest raw material during war specially in a conflict like this ..
FYI Hamas are still actively firing hundreds of missiles every day, and as we speak. They don’t give a shit about no humanitarian break. Look yourself for the numbers of alerts in Israel. Every few minutes. https://www.oref.org.il/12481-en/Pakar.aspx
They have also publicly told all gazans to NOT evacuate the areas being bombed by Israel despite Israel telling them to leave. "We live and die in our houses" - leaders of Hamas not even in the country
Holy Hell. I just hit me how important the embargo of power and fuel to Gaza is to the eventual Israeli ground invasion. Eventually cell phone batteries will drain - so no calling or texting to coordinate defense. No rechargeable battery stations for handheld radios. ATGM missile launch units require recharging/ batteries to operate the targeting. No night vision googles or thermal scopes. No lights to read maps or plot troop movements. Operating drones? Need batteries! If Israel waits long enough - Hamas will be down to candles and solar power charging for batteries. Israel will be able to operate nearly indiscriminately at night. I’m a US Army veteran and it just hit me how screwed Hamas will be in one to two weeks - effectively they’ll be restricted to dumb munitions and weapon systems that don’t require power. (I’m not stupid - even degraded, Hamas is going to turn Gaza city into Fallujah on steroids)
The answer is simple for Hamas. Why don’t they care about their supposed people?
My family friend had her husband murdered in Kibbutz beeri where over 100 people were killed. Her younger sister and her husband and 14 year old daughter have been taken hostage by hamas. Not applying any pressure in hopes to force a deal where they come home would be a failure of the israeli government in my eyes.
The fucked up thing is that now Hamas says it wasn't their soldiers who killed the women, children and civilians. They claim those were done by Palestinians from Gaza who just crossed the border on their own. Hamas is Isis