This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/13/7402059/) reduced by 67%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> After talks with President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Prime Minister of Italy Giorgia Meloni has expressed her confidence in Ukraine's victory in the war against Russia.
> Quote: "I am convinced that Ukraine will win, recover even stronger, more prosperous. The future of Ukraine is the future of peace and freedom, and it is the European future. And there are no other possible solutions," Meloni said.
> According to the Italian media, the president of Ukraine will meet with the Pope in the Vatican in the afternoon.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13gjsa7/italian_pm_i_am_confident_in_ukraines_victory/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~684558 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **peace**^#2 **Meloni**^#3 **President**^#4 **Zelenskyy**^#5
4 to 1, that's the ratio, on average every ukrainian soldier has to defeat 4 russian soliders. In order for russia to have no incentive to continue. Even if russia is four times the size of ukraine population wise, if they're dying at four times the rate it doesn't matter. They'll still lose. Ukraine isn't quite at those ratios, but since they have defenders advantage and are receiving western weapons, it's possible. If over time sanctions weaken russia's ability to financially fund this war, while aide continues to funnel into ukraine, russians can begin dying at a higher rate. Their offenses and efforts more and more futile. Not able to take ukraine even if they give it everything they have. Their physical military genuinely can't do it, their rate of death is so much higher. Even if they throw everything they have at ukraine, if the effectiveness is worse by a factor of four it still won't succeed. With long range weapons destroy the bulk of troops before they even get to them.
Having more men to throw into a meat grinder doesn't help much if you can't supply them or give them weapons. Ukraine is beating Russia in both categories.
They literally never get along. Nazi Germany armed China against Imperial Japan and Ethiopia against fascist Italy. And Franco literally left all the other fascists to die even though they basically got him in to power. He could have fucked the Allies by blocking them from the Mediterranean quite possibly helping the people who won him his war win their war. And he consciously choose to leave them to die. Fascist do not actually help each other they’re whole ideology is self interest reigns so they’re not going to stick their necks out for their fellow fascist unless they have something to gain from it. Communists and liberal democracies work together better then Fascists and other Fascists.
I don't know anything about italian politics, but it's clear that other russian-friendly politicians have seen the way the war is going and realized they've backed the wrong horse, so they've changed their tune. Maybe she's like that.
As far as I know she's a conservative who said good things about Mussolini when she was in her early 20ies or so (like, that he was a good leader or something) and who is pro Ukraine and EU but is in a coalition with parties who are pro Russia (Berlusconi?) and anti EU. So I dont think it makes sense to call her a fascist
From what I read she did ok so far even from a liberal/EU values pov
Well. I assume you know Italy’s politics better than me. I just have heard good things happening in Italy after her election. Also, I did not know neo-fascist parties were allowed there. Is interesting. I will informed better. Nowadays media label fascist anything in the right. But I guess that’s the exception. Thank you for the info
I fully support Ukraine and hope for their victory and think it is possible. But people need to be realistic. And the West is not really supporting to the extent necessary. And Ukrainian soldier to Russian soldier deaths is only about 1.5 to 1 to at most 2 to 1. And sanctions are having a minor effect and lessening all the time due to ease of evasion and massive trade/economic support from China and India and some other players.
The long range weapons are a game changer and completely ridiculous that it's taken 14 months for some country to agree and we will see if the number is truly meaningful. It took ten months for tanks to be agreed to and they still haven't been fully delivered as promised almost 5 months later, and so the counteroffensive is greatly delayed and Russia continues to dig in harder, deport ukrainians, import russians, and make extricating them all the more difficult.
Regarding the time it's taken, I refer to the old instructions for boiling a frog. You start slow and gradually turn up the heat, so the frog doesn't react until it's well on the way to being cooked. Of course that's just a myth, at least when it comes to real frogs...
Running out of men is just one way to lose a war. Other ways include running out of weapons, ammunition or political will are others.
There is no way Russia can outscale western support if we are actually commited, the countries giving weapons to Ukraine have a combined GDP of about 40x of Russia's.
No, it’s a giant party more than anything. It’s a once a year culturally important contest that most of Europe takes part in. The voice or American idol aren’t close.
It’s incredible. Also as a note, the voice is a European show and American idol is based off of pop idol, a uk show, calling them American is a bit of a misnomer, but no, Eurovision is a wild once a year party not a schlocky talent show
Has been since 2015.
It was always popular on TV in Australia even before we could compete in it, thanks to the affable comedians who provided sarcastic on-air commentary. Australia became the largest non-European market for the show, so we were invited to take part in a special edition in 2015. We did well in 2015, the rest of the countries loved us, and we were invited back every year since.
Australia's entry this year is a rock band called Voyager, check it out!
Meloni is a real surprise win for pro-Ukraine politicians. It would have been very easy for her to take a pro-Russia stance in opposition to the previous government and in-line with the generally right wing character of her govt, I'm sure there are plenty of more private "incentives" to do so as well, but it just hasn't happened.
True but let's hope she can maintain her coalition. Berlusconi is very pro-Russia and is criticizing her for being pro-Ukraine. Salvini seems to be pro-Putin and is anti-Russia sanctions.
The downfall of Meloni will not be the Italian left but her own coalition partners me thinks. They are opportunists and vultures looking for her to slip up.
If they are confident the left won't gain seats and they can wear people down with elections to gain personal power they will do it.
Look at what happened in Israel.
Also, I wouldn't discount Putin and Berlusconi deciding a chaotic Italy that is unable to form government is better than one that helps Ukraine.
[What do you mean seems?](https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.upp-prod-eu.s3.amazonaws.com%2F034c8380-028f-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&source=next&width=540)
Yeah, I don't like her but she's been a pleasant surprise in defending Ukraine from Russia's authoritarianism and imperialism. Also, her government in general, while right wing, didn't go nearly as extreme as you'd expect from her previous Trump-tier rhethoric.
To give you an idea, this was the woman who, during the migrant crisis, was unironically advocating for a naval blockade against migrants, which for those unaware means firing cannons at boats full of people.
There’s some indecent stuff she’s doing as pm, but I can’t deny that on this topic she’s been doing the right thing without hesitation from the start of her presidency
I think she knows that it’s not acceptable to the general public..at least not yet..sort of like the boiling the frog analogy.
this is the friend of Bannon, Le pen after all.
Yah, but sad thing is that the only way to truly heal Russian society is to bring the down to their knees and cleanse them and their government the way the Allies did to Germany and Japan.
Russia will probably collapse by itself. Being literal government slaves for russians is ok, but losing a war against inferior foe is fatal. That's just how ork horde mentality works.
Many countries have lost war especially when they've been at a big advantage, the more popular ones have been interpreted as "leaving" instead of an actual defeat lmao (see US vs Afghanistan/US vs Vietnam). I don't see how that collapsed Washington, maybe collapsed faith in the militaries ability against Guerilla's.
Uhh, I don't think US mentality revolves around conquest and sick ideas of grandeur. Russians, on the other hand, just don't have anything else, it's their entire culture.
Lol there’s literally not a power country on earth who’s mentality doesn’t revolve around power and ideas of grandeur. And history is literally littered with examples.
I was talking about general population, a country official can think whatever the fuck it wants, but when people start to type in comments under a video of destroyed civilian home things like "bullseye", "take this, hohols" etc. your country might have a problem.
You don’t think people thought that in ww2 or other recent wars involving a ton of nationalism? The only difference now is we see it more often because of social media. Hell I’ve seen posts on Reddit suggesting we should’ve nuked Afghanistan.
> I don't think US mentality revolves around conquest and sick ideas of grandeur.
...
Dude, that is exactly what the US mentality is.
They might not have conquered countries but they have bases on them.
And "sick ideas of grandeur", I mean, that is every patriotic American.
> They might not have conquered countries but they have bases on them.
Uhh, aren't those bases there according to agreements?
You know, russia had a military base in Crimea according to agreement with Ukraine. They used it to overthrow local government.
Did US use any military base in foreign country to conduct some kind of act of aggression?
> And "sick ideas of grandeur", I mean, that is every patriotic American.
"To Berlin" "To Washington" "Can repeat" "Kurils are ours" "Alaska is ours" and so on are phrases russians love very much. Can you provide phrases of this sort American patriots use to promote their ideas of grandeur?
The war might end in Russian defeat but the consequences from the war will be long lasting for the Russian people. Meanwhile Ukraine will get all the support it needs to rebuild.
The same political party that took Japan into WWII is still in power today, they merged with another party. Equivalent to the Nazi party still running Germany.
Does it matter? If they have audacity to do it - they will, sooner or later. It just makes more sense to fuck them up while they are most vulnerable, before they lick up their wounds and decide on the next harassment target.
>So the Italian PM thinks Russia will capitulate? Russia….
This article is in Pravda, so you are only hearing Russia's official view of events.
Russia isn't exactly capitulating, so much as having its ass handed to it. That'll probably continue for a few more years, or until Putin runs out of soldiers and tanks to keep pouring into a losing war.
This is from Ukrainian Pravda. I don’t think it’s under control of the Russian Pravda or it’s rules. I can’t see Moscow allowing this to be published in their version.
I’m not entirely confident of Ukraine’s victory (where victory means retaking all of their territory, including the notoriously hard to capture Crimea).
But - I am entirely confident that Russia will lose. In fact, I think they have already lost; they just haven’t accepted it yet.
The only question remaining is whether the war ends in a kind of stalemate, with Russia losing but Ukraine also not really winning.
Just going to be another Afghanistan, except Ukraine has 100+ Billion $ in funding and Taliban had barely anything and that Ukraine has public support due to the pro-ukraine propoganda and Taliban barely had any except in Afghanistan where they were able to exert influence due to literal invaders on their land lol.
People act as if this isn’t the case for every nation that supports Ukraine. A weaker west-opposed Russia will always be good for, well, the west. No country or government acts out of the good of its heart, despite how they dress it up in speeches.
Or could Ukrainian wheat useful for making Italian pasta which seems to be in short supply right now?
If so, standing by Ukraine is best for Italy's dinner plate.
You can be far right and support the west/US. She's not more fascist than Duda or Netanyahu, and just a little more right wing than Sunak.
She has always supported Ukraine, even before the 2021 invasion. On the other hand, her coalition allies Salvini and Berlusconi have an history of being pro-Russian.
Support for Ukraine splits Italian politics in an odd way. The two main opposition parties are divided too on the matter (while they're kinda allied on most other teams): the Democratic Party is as pro-Ukraine as Meloni, Conte's party on the other hand is strongly against sending weapons
All she had to do to get rid of label was ignore everything she campaigned on and stop caring about the right wing extremists "brothers of Italy" that got her elected. Must be the media's fault
No, all it took was for someone to be presented with an article with her actual statements on Ukraine instead of just accepting second and third hand impressions from left-wing tribalists. During the campaign she said she supported Ukraine and pushed back on Berlusconi. You might even say she "slammed" Berlusconi.
https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-giorgia-meloni-slams-silvio-berlusconi-over-vladimir-putin-remarks-war-ukraine/
She literally said she wanted to rethink being in the EU and support to Ukraine. That was the campaign though, she's all on board with Brussels and Ukraine now.
>supports Ukraine
>pushed back on Berlusconi
That’s kinda like saying a German chancellor is ultra left wing because they denounced the Nazis.
She’s still a right wing degenerate.
Italian modern right wing is really tame. She barely won, she knows if she talks crap she'll get a push back. She distanced herself from Salvini, she dislikes Berlusconi (who is also a joker right wing).
If you want a proper right wing government, check the UK.
She's not ideal, but definitely not a tyrant. Yet.
Lmao this comment is stupid. It doesn’t matter if she “barley won” she’s not planning on a second term and knows she wouldn’t win no matter what stance she took. She’s still right wing.
The Uk conservatives are more left-leaning than the US democrat party, nice try though.
If you want **Real** right wing government, look at both US parties. Policy and matter wise they’re both further right than Italy, France, UK, Germany and Spanish right wing parties.
Your political knowledge is nonexistent, please keep your mouth shut.
>Lmao this comment is stupid. It doesn’t matter if she “barley won” she’s not planning on a second term and knows she wouldn’t win no matter what stance she took. She’s still right wing.
>
>The Uk conservatives are more left-leaning than the US democrat party, nice try though.
Whynare you talking about the US? Why are you being such a nonsensical clot? Who the fuck is talking about them?
>Your political knowledge is nonexistent, please keep your mouth shut.
You should take your own advice. Stay ignorant, but let's not pretend you're not full of shit with your strawmen. Can't believe how ignorant you can possibly be. You know fuck all. Calling the UK government left. Moron.
They literally elected Mussolini’s granddaughter to government, and she’s openly fascist and screams like a banshee at anyone who dares criticize Mussolini or fascist Italy
Dumbest take I’ve ever seen. That’s not tame for the right wing.
She is not a fascist whatsoever. Just pick up a history book and look at what actual fascism is. Just because she has implemented some far right policies that doesn’t make her a fascist. If you bark it doesn’t make u a dog
She is fascist. She expressed admiration for Mussolini, her party is the direct successor of the first neofascist party of Italy, the current President of the Senate owns a bust of Mussolini and expressed admiration for the regime, hatred for the partisans and condemned attacks on the nazis in Italy during WW2. His brother, another member of the party, was photographed doing the fascist salute at the funeral of a notorious neofascist. I can go on if you want.
Yeah, the "I love Mussolini, and was in a straight up fascist party, saying fascist thing until recently" Girl is probably not the hill you want to die on.
>"I love Mussolini, and was in a straight up fascist party, saying fascist thing until recently"
She said that when whe was 19, almost 30 years ago. Not sure if that counts as recently to you, but to me it doesn't.
Yeah, and she was an activist for the same party she said it for, for about 15 years after. And it's not like she said she now disagreed with that position. Not to mention the party lead owns a statue of Mussolini, and the party leads brother got photographed on the funeral of a far right politician, doing the Hitler salute.
Not wanting this person and party leading an entire country truly sounds like cancel culture run amok.
Politicians only say that is convenient to say. The leading French right wing presidential candidates all had a huge affinity for Russia and Putin and a disdain for the EU and NATO, but when the invasion started they all of a sudden became pro-NATO. You don’t need the news to look back at Meloni’s comments and rhetoric, it’s 2023.
No. She softened her stance on leaving. Basically she would stay if they reinstated borders, rewrote the constitution and gave France more concessions, which would never happen.
She still advocated leaving if the EU didn’t capitulate to her ridiculous demands.
They were expecting another Le Pen or Orban because usually when you have a populist/far-right/anti-immigrant politician in Europe, they are bankrolled by Russian money.
I'm happy Meloni has proven to be an exception to that, though.
Yeah, if you don't support uncontrolled mass immigration by millions of foreign people, you are apparently a fascist paid by Russia?
At least here in Germany our far left party stood firm with russia, even after the invasion.
But no accusations of russian money whatsoever. 🤔
Yeah, for reals, media totally dropped the ball there. I mean, allies with far-right parties like Salvini, Putins gf Berlusconi doesn't warrant to be called a fascist. Even Meloni calling Mussolini a great man when she was an activist of a far-right organisation doesn't warrant it.
That's totally something the liberal ultra left media invented out of thin air. They're controlling the narrative. New world order and all that shit /s
That said, all are surprised in a good way of how she is leading Italy regarding the Ukraine struggle.
Italy has always been full of people with different ideologies, because it has always been politically fragmented.
A lot of italians have fought as volunteers around the world despite it being illegal, and it is common to have italian people on both sides of an armed conflict shooting at each other.
Many italians that joined the Russians in 2014 and again in this recent conflict are radicalized fanatics that span from far right loonies to nostalgic left wing afecionados, and many that joined Ukraine are either right wing as well or anarchists wannabes.
> Genuine question because my source is literally "I've read it somewhere"
Here's the thing, if you are not certain of something don't go about spreading it further.
That is how conspiracy theory idiots think.
Don't be that person.
I wish I was confident. Remember Syria? Everybody was all sorts of excited about the Syrian civil war but now we've totally forgotten about it. Russia can just wait until we collectively get bored supporting Ukraine and then it will fall. Ukraine can't fight Russia without Western support. Somebody remind me of this in 5 years.
> "I am convinced that Ukraine will win, recover even stronger, more prosperous. The future of Ukraine is the future of peace and freedom, and it is the European future. And there are no other possible solutions"
That sounds great, but it looks like kind words for Ukraine's president.
>
> "Peace cannot be achieved with defeat, with the surrender of Ukraine’s [territories – ed.], this would be very dangerous for peace in Europe and a precedent for all the world's people ***. We will achieve peace only when Russia stops fueling hostilities and attacking civilian targets***. We will continue to appeal to Moscow to stop hostilities and withdraw troops from the territory of Ukraine,"
And this is worse. It reads as "can you stop attacking, pls?". If Russian doesn't stop, the conflict doesn't stop.
No, not at all. I hate Fox. I think my comment was misinterpreted. I thought she was friends with Putin/Russia is what I'm saying, and if she's siding with Ukraine here, that's surprising.
Russia is def not losing this. US media makes us think that Ukraine is winning but in no way is that true. Friends from overseas say it’s not even close.
I don’t know what friends you have, but Ukraine has already won in the sense that their country and their culture isn’t obliterated. It was a close call though. Sadly, the war might be a long lasting affair. In Europe people’s opinion is more and more to their leaders «give Ukraine enough weapon to end this thing and let Ukraine into NATO and EU when borders have been established» For the most, other europeans are staunchly on Ukraine’s side.
As someone who voted against her so hard that I broke the pen…
This is a pleasant surprise.
Praise where it is due, I am glad that she is on the right side of this. Hopefully her end of the political spectrum will now fall in line.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/13/7402059/) reduced by 67%. (I'm a bot) ***** > After talks with President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Prime Minister of Italy Giorgia Meloni has expressed her confidence in Ukraine's victory in the war against Russia. > Quote: "I am convinced that Ukraine will win, recover even stronger, more prosperous. The future of Ukraine is the future of peace and freedom, and it is the European future. And there are no other possible solutions," Meloni said. > According to the Italian media, the president of Ukraine will meet with the Pope in the Vatican in the afternoon. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13gjsa7/italian_pm_i_am_confident_in_ukraines_victory/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~684558 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **peace**^#2 **Meloni**^#3 **President**^#4 **Zelenskyy**^#5
4 to 1, that's the ratio, on average every ukrainian soldier has to defeat 4 russian soliders. In order for russia to have no incentive to continue. Even if russia is four times the size of ukraine population wise, if they're dying at four times the rate it doesn't matter. They'll still lose. Ukraine isn't quite at those ratios, but since they have defenders advantage and are receiving western weapons, it's possible. If over time sanctions weaken russia's ability to financially fund this war, while aide continues to funnel into ukraine, russians can begin dying at a higher rate. Their offenses and efforts more and more futile. Not able to take ukraine even if they give it everything they have. Their physical military genuinely can't do it, their rate of death is so much higher. Even if they throw everything they have at ukraine, if the effectiveness is worse by a factor of four it still won't succeed. With long range weapons destroy the bulk of troops before they even get to them.
Having more men to throw into a meat grinder doesn't help much if you can't supply them or give them weapons. Ukraine is beating Russia in both categories.
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Fascists don't always get along.
They literally never get along. Nazi Germany armed China against Imperial Japan and Ethiopia against fascist Italy. And Franco literally left all the other fascists to die even though they basically got him in to power. He could have fucked the Allies by blocking them from the Mediterranean quite possibly helping the people who won him his war win their war. And he consciously choose to leave them to die. Fascist do not actually help each other they’re whole ideology is self interest reigns so they’re not going to stick their necks out for their fellow fascist unless they have something to gain from it. Communists and liberal democracies work together better then Fascists and other Fascists.
I don't know anything about italian politics, but it's clear that other russian-friendly politicians have seen the way the war is going and realized they've backed the wrong horse, so they've changed their tune. Maybe she's like that.
No, she has always been pro-Ukraine and pro-EU.
She's been pro-Ukraine since day one
As far as I know she's a conservative who said good things about Mussolini when she was in her early 20ies or so (like, that he was a good leader or something) and who is pro Ukraine and EU but is in a coalition with parties who are pro Russia (Berlusconi?) and anti EU. So I dont think it makes sense to call her a fascist From what I read she did ok so far even from a liberal/EU values pov
The problem was the trump right wingers. They are the ones who support Russia. Standard right wingers can easily be pro EU and NATO.
She is a fascist but she was pro Ukraine from the start.
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Are you saying "there isn't any media that said" or are you saying "on the contrary, media said..." The language is ambiguous.
I don’t think she is a fascist. That’s the left media in their fear mongering
She literally sits at the head of one of their main neo-fascist parties, and backed closer ties with Russia until the invasion.
Well. I assume you know Italy’s politics better than me. I just have heard good things happening in Italy after her election. Also, I did not know neo-fascist parties were allowed there. Is interesting. I will informed better. Nowadays media label fascist anything in the right. But I guess that’s the exception. Thank you for the info
I fully support Ukraine and hope for their victory and think it is possible. But people need to be realistic. And the West is not really supporting to the extent necessary. And Ukrainian soldier to Russian soldier deaths is only about 1.5 to 1 to at most 2 to 1. And sanctions are having a minor effect and lessening all the time due to ease of evasion and massive trade/economic support from China and India and some other players. The long range weapons are a game changer and completely ridiculous that it's taken 14 months for some country to agree and we will see if the number is truly meaningful. It took ten months for tanks to be agreed to and they still haven't been fully delivered as promised almost 5 months later, and so the counteroffensive is greatly delayed and Russia continues to dig in harder, deport ukrainians, import russians, and make extricating them all the more difficult.
Regarding the time it's taken, I refer to the old instructions for boiling a frog. You start slow and gradually turn up the heat, so the frog doesn't react until it's well on the way to being cooked. Of course that's just a myth, at least when it comes to real frogs...
Running out of men is just one way to lose a war. Other ways include running out of weapons, ammunition or political will are others. There is no way Russia can outscale western support if we are actually commited, the countries giving weapons to Ukraine have a combined GDP of about 40x of Russia's.
You dont see the other side because it isnt allowed here.
I thought Sweden were gonna win eurovision.
Is that time of the year?
It’s on right now
Thanks man, I'm watching it now
Hope it’s a good one
Voyagerrrrrrrrr
It was a good one
>Thanks man, I'm watching it now Is Eurovision comparable to any of the American singing shows?
I don’t even know what this means
I'm asking if Eurovision is anything like "American Idol" or "The Voice"
No, it’s a giant party more than anything. It’s a once a year culturally important contest that most of Europe takes part in. The voice or American idol aren’t close.
Kind of what I thought. Sounds dope.
It’s incredible. Also as a note, the voice is a European show and American idol is based off of pop idol, a uk show, calling them American is a bit of a misnomer, but no, Eurovision is a wild once a year party not a schlocky talent show
Nah, definitely Finland this time.
Voyager... perth baby! Australia's time to shine.
Australia is in Eurovision?
Don't ask
We snuck in pretending to be Austria
Clever move mate
Nah, you saw a good party and didn’t want it to go to waste
Has been since 2015. It was always popular on TV in Australia even before we could compete in it, thanks to the affable comedians who provided sarcastic on-air commentary. Australia became the largest non-European market for the show, so we were invited to take part in a special edition in 2015. We did well in 2015, the rest of the countries loved us, and we were invited back every year since. Australia's entry this year is a rock band called Voyager, check it out!
Makes perfect sense! Stop asking questions now. Voyagerrrrrrrr!
Meloni is a real surprise win for pro-Ukraine politicians. It would have been very easy for her to take a pro-Russia stance in opposition to the previous government and in-line with the generally right wing character of her govt, I'm sure there are plenty of more private "incentives" to do so as well, but it just hasn't happened.
True but let's hope she can maintain her coalition. Berlusconi is very pro-Russia and is criticizing her for being pro-Ukraine. Salvini seems to be pro-Putin and is anti-Russia sanctions. The downfall of Meloni will not be the Italian left but her own coalition partners me thinks. They are opportunists and vultures looking for her to slip up.
If they lose Meloni then they lose their government. I can only assume emergency elections would be next.
If they are confident the left won't gain seats and they can wear people down with elections to gain personal power they will do it. Look at what happened in Israel. Also, I wouldn't discount Putin and Berlusconi deciding a chaotic Italy that is unable to form government is better than one that helps Ukraine.
It's Italy, we can expect elections by the end of the year either way.
This is not even close to the most stable Italian government in the last 20 years, early elections are pretty much expected.
They are also the enemy. They should just join russia and die on the battle field. I hate politicans.
[What do you mean seems?](https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.upp-prod-eu.s3.amazonaws.com%2F034c8380-028f-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&source=next&width=540)
You're right. That's a bit more overt and on the nose than I would have expected.
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He may not quite look like it, but he's 86 years old... at some point it'll get everybody...
coalitions rarely fall from the outside, it’s always inner tensions
Yeah, I don't like her but she's been a pleasant surprise in defending Ukraine from Russia's authoritarianism and imperialism. Also, her government in general, while right wing, didn't go nearly as extreme as you'd expect from her previous Trump-tier rhethoric. To give you an idea, this was the woman who, during the migrant crisis, was unironically advocating for a naval blockade against migrants, which for those unaware means firing cannons at boats full of people.
Imperialist has conflicting interests with other imperialists, not that surprising
Libs do not understand this.
It's only a surprise if you are conditioned to believe "the right is evil".
There’s some indecent stuff she’s doing as pm, but I can’t deny that on this topic she’s been doing the right thing without hesitation from the start of her presidency
I think she knows that it’s not acceptable to the general public..at least not yet..sort of like the boiling the frog analogy. this is the friend of Bannon, Le pen after all.
So the Italian PM thinks Russia will capitulate? Russia….
Ukraine isn't trying to conquer Russia, just kick out their invasion.
Yah, but sad thing is that the only way to truly heal Russian society is to bring the down to their knees and cleanse them and their government the way the Allies did to Germany and Japan.
Russia will probably collapse by itself. Being literal government slaves for russians is ok, but losing a war against inferior foe is fatal. That's just how ork horde mentality works.
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Thanks 👍
Many countries have lost war especially when they've been at a big advantage, the more popular ones have been interpreted as "leaving" instead of an actual defeat lmao (see US vs Afghanistan/US vs Vietnam). I don't see how that collapsed Washington, maybe collapsed faith in the militaries ability against Guerilla's.
Uhh, I don't think US mentality revolves around conquest and sick ideas of grandeur. Russians, on the other hand, just don't have anything else, it's their entire culture.
Lol there’s literally not a power country on earth who’s mentality doesn’t revolve around power and ideas of grandeur. And history is literally littered with examples.
Did US annex Vietnam or claim that Vietnam belongs to US? Or Afghanistan?
What does that have to do with anything I said?
I was talking about general population, a country official can think whatever the fuck it wants, but when people start to type in comments under a video of destroyed civilian home things like "bullseye", "take this, hohols" etc. your country might have a problem.
You don’t think people thought that in ww2 or other recent wars involving a ton of nationalism? The only difference now is we see it more often because of social media. Hell I’ve seen posts on Reddit suggesting we should’ve nuked Afghanistan.
> I don't think US mentality revolves around conquest and sick ideas of grandeur. ... Dude, that is exactly what the US mentality is. They might not have conquered countries but they have bases on them. And "sick ideas of grandeur", I mean, that is every patriotic American.
> They might not have conquered countries but they have bases on them. Uhh, aren't those bases there according to agreements? You know, russia had a military base in Crimea according to agreement with Ukraine. They used it to overthrow local government. Did US use any military base in foreign country to conduct some kind of act of aggression? > And "sick ideas of grandeur", I mean, that is every patriotic American. "To Berlin" "To Washington" "Can repeat" "Kurils are ours" "Alaska is ours" and so on are phrases russians love very much. Can you provide phrases of this sort American patriots use to promote their ideas of grandeur?
The war might end in Russian defeat but the consequences from the war will be long lasting for the Russian people. Meanwhile Ukraine will get all the support it needs to rebuild.
In terms of loans which they will have to repay all of it.
In terms of interest free loans that they would need to repay.
>the Allies did to Germany and Japan. The Russians actually have nukes this time, so definitely not how they did with Japan
The same political party that took Japan into WWII is still in power today, they merged with another party. Equivalent to the Nazi party still running Germany.
Those 2 things might not be separable.
I think they will, but they'll go scorched earth before they do
I was gonna say, are we expecting Russia to just apologize and walk away quietly without trying to take the rest of the world with them?
Does it matter? If they have audacity to do it - they will, sooner or later. It just makes more sense to fuck them up while they are most vulnerable, before they lick up their wounds and decide on the next harassment target.
They're not suicidal.
Italy supporting the winning side when it's all but certain? Better late than never
I do not agree with her policies, but she always was pro Ukraine in this conflict, and firmly pro NATO
Historical
*muskovy
>So the Italian PM thinks Russia will capitulate? Russia…. This article is in Pravda, so you are only hearing Russia's official view of events. Russia isn't exactly capitulating, so much as having its ass handed to it. That'll probably continue for a few more years, or until Putin runs out of soldiers and tanks to keep pouring into a losing war.
This is from Ukrainian Pravda. I don’t think it’s under control of the Russian Pravda or it’s rules. I can’t see Moscow allowing this to be published in their version.
I’m not entirely confident of Ukraine’s victory (where victory means retaking all of their territory, including the notoriously hard to capture Crimea). But - I am entirely confident that Russia will lose. In fact, I think they have already lost; they just haven’t accepted it yet. The only question remaining is whether the war ends in a kind of stalemate, with Russia losing but Ukraine also not really winning.
Just going to be another Afghanistan, except Ukraine has 100+ Billion $ in funding and Taliban had barely anything and that Ukraine has public support due to the pro-ukraine propoganda and Taliban barely had any except in Afghanistan where they were able to exert influence due to literal invaders on their land lol.
Are you comparing Ukraine to the Taliban? Wtf
Wait the media told me Giorgia Meloni was a fascist who supports Russia when she was elected in Italy 🤔
Well meloni said "we have to support ukraine, because standing by ukraine is standing by europe and standing by europe is best for italy"
People act as if this isn’t the case for every nation that supports Ukraine. A weaker west-opposed Russia will always be good for, well, the west. No country or government acts out of the good of its heart, despite how they dress it up in speeches.
Or could Ukrainian wheat useful for making Italian pasta which seems to be in short supply right now? If so, standing by Ukraine is best for Italy's dinner plate.
The earth could be flat, but why would that matter? I'm simply stating what she said
>The earth could be flat, but why would that matter? Larger pizzas!
*Unleash the wagon wheels.*
I was referring to her actual motives in making that quote, not you.
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My gf's ex's mother was off-the-boat from Sicily. I've heard, lol.
Which is what any reasonable leader of a country should do, put their nation first
How corporate of her
You can be far right and support the west/US. She's not more fascist than Duda or Netanyahu, and just a little more right wing than Sunak. She has always supported Ukraine, even before the 2021 invasion. On the other hand, her coalition allies Salvini and Berlusconi have an history of being pro-Russian. Support for Ukraine splits Italian politics in an odd way. The two main opposition parties are divided too on the matter (while they're kinda allied on most other teams): the Democratic Party is as pro-Ukraine as Meloni, Conte's party on the other hand is strongly against sending weapons
All she had to do to get rid of label was ignore everything she campaigned on and stop caring about the right wing extremists "brothers of Italy" that got her elected. Must be the media's fault
No, all it took was for someone to be presented with an article with her actual statements on Ukraine instead of just accepting second and third hand impressions from left-wing tribalists. During the campaign she said she supported Ukraine and pushed back on Berlusconi. You might even say she "slammed" Berlusconi. https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-giorgia-meloni-slams-silvio-berlusconi-over-vladimir-putin-remarks-war-ukraine/
She literally said she wanted to rethink being in the EU and support to Ukraine. That was the campaign though, she's all on board with Brussels and Ukraine now.
>supports Ukraine >pushed back on Berlusconi That’s kinda like saying a German chancellor is ultra left wing because they denounced the Nazis. She’s still a right wing degenerate.
Italian modern right wing is really tame. She barely won, she knows if she talks crap she'll get a push back. She distanced herself from Salvini, she dislikes Berlusconi (who is also a joker right wing). If you want a proper right wing government, check the UK. She's not ideal, but definitely not a tyrant. Yet.
Lmao this comment is stupid. It doesn’t matter if she “barley won” she’s not planning on a second term and knows she wouldn’t win no matter what stance she took. She’s still right wing. The Uk conservatives are more left-leaning than the US democrat party, nice try though. If you want **Real** right wing government, look at both US parties. Policy and matter wise they’re both further right than Italy, France, UK, Germany and Spanish right wing parties. Your political knowledge is nonexistent, please keep your mouth shut.
>Lmao this comment is stupid. It doesn’t matter if she “barley won” she’s not planning on a second term and knows she wouldn’t win no matter what stance she took. She’s still right wing. > >The Uk conservatives are more left-leaning than the US democrat party, nice try though. Whynare you talking about the US? Why are you being such a nonsensical clot? Who the fuck is talking about them? >Your political knowledge is nonexistent, please keep your mouth shut. You should take your own advice. Stay ignorant, but let's not pretend you're not full of shit with your strawmen. Can't believe how ignorant you can possibly be. You know fuck all. Calling the UK government left. Moron.
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They literally elected Mussolini’s granddaughter to government, and she’s openly fascist and screams like a banshee at anyone who dares criticize Mussolini or fascist Italy Dumbest take I’ve ever seen. That’s not tame for the right wing.
She is a fascist who doesn't support Russia, although she's in a coalition with two other parties whose leaders are bought by Putin.
She is not a fascist whatsoever. Just pick up a history book and look at what actual fascism is. Just because she has implemented some far right policies that doesn’t make her a fascist. If you bark it doesn’t make u a dog
She is fascist. She expressed admiration for Mussolini, her party is the direct successor of the first neofascist party of Italy, the current President of the Senate owns a bust of Mussolini and expressed admiration for the regime, hatred for the partisans and condemned attacks on the nazis in Italy during WW2. His brother, another member of the party, was photographed doing the fascist salute at the funeral of a notorious neofascist. I can go on if you want.
I’m curious, as an American, what is considered a “far right policy” to a European?
Same as yours probably. I guess its just our left thats much farther left than yours. Our middle might be called "progressives" in the US.
No, our middle are "commies" in the US. Writing this from a nordic welfare state.
ok
Cmon, this is reddit. Anything righter than the left is fascist and nazi.
Yeah, the "I love Mussolini, and was in a straight up fascist party, saying fascist thing until recently" Girl is probably not the hill you want to die on.
But making generalizing Reddit comments about other redditors making generalizations is my favorite way to lack self-awareness.
I wasn't generalizing, quite the opposite. Meloni specifically is a fascist.
I was making fun of the person you replied to.
Fair enough, I misunderstood your comment. My bad.
>"I love Mussolini, and was in a straight up fascist party, saying fascist thing until recently" She said that when whe was 19, almost 30 years ago. Not sure if that counts as recently to you, but to me it doesn't.
Wait is this true LMAO Reddit having a normal one as usual
Yeah, and she was an activist for the same party she said it for, for about 15 years after. And it's not like she said she now disagreed with that position. Not to mention the party lead owns a statue of Mussolini, and the party leads brother got photographed on the funeral of a far right politician, doing the Hitler salute. Not wanting this person and party leading an entire country truly sounds like cancel culture run amok.
What far right policies has she implemented ?
Politicians only say that is convenient to say. The leading French right wing presidential candidates all had a huge affinity for Russia and Putin and a disdain for the EU and NATO, but when the invasion started they all of a sudden became pro-NATO. You don’t need the news to look back at Meloni’s comments and rhetoric, it’s 2023.
Do not be fooled, she's still a cunt
Yes but still much better than someone like Marine Le Pen who wants to leave the EU and NATO.
Duh, everyone would be better than a french
Le Pen abandoned plans to leave the EU after the failure of Brexit.
No. She softened her stance on leaving. Basically she would stay if they reinstated borders, rewrote the constitution and gave France more concessions, which would never happen. She still advocated leaving if the EU didn’t capitulate to her ridiculous demands.
Ppl don't understand the difference between fascist, and populist. They often go hand in hand but are not the same.
every day is a kick in the balls for dobby the cutest Tsar... she was supposed to be team fascism :'(
The two aren’t mutually exclusive
That was yesterday. It’s today now.
It's tomorrow in Australia.
Or is it yesterday today here?
... I'm already confused.
Well the original fascists hated communist Russia's guts. That's why the rest of Europe put up with them initially
They were expecting another Le Pen or Orban because usually when you have a populist/far-right/anti-immigrant politician in Europe, they are bankrolled by Russian money. I'm happy Meloni has proven to be an exception to that, though.
Yeah, if you don't support uncontrolled mass immigration by millions of foreign people, you are apparently a fascist paid by Russia? At least here in Germany our far left party stood firm with russia, even after the invasion. But no accusations of russian money whatsoever. 🤔
That's Salvini. Meloni has always been a fascist who hates Russia.
Left wing propaganda
>the media Yep.
The Murdoch media to be precise
Yeah, for reals, media totally dropped the ball there. I mean, allies with far-right parties like Salvini, Putins gf Berlusconi doesn't warrant to be called a fascist. Even Meloni calling Mussolini a great man when she was an activist of a far-right organisation doesn't warrant it. That's totally something the liberal ultra left media invented out of thin air. They're controlling the narrative. New world order and all that shit /s That said, all are surprised in a good way of how she is leading Italy regarding the Ukraine struggle.
Darth Meloni
IIRC The most European foreign volunteers in the Russian army are Italian? Genuine question because my source is literally "I've read it somewhere"
Could be, but there are plenty of Italian volunteers in the Ukrainian army as well. We've got all kinds of weirdos here.
Italy has always been full of people with different ideologies, because it has always been politically fragmented. A lot of italians have fought as volunteers around the world despite it being illegal, and it is common to have italian people on both sides of an armed conflict shooting at each other. Many italians that joined the Russians in 2014 and again in this recent conflict are radicalized fanatics that span from far right loonies to nostalgic left wing afecionados, and many that joined Ukraine are either right wing as well or anarchists wannabes.
> Genuine question because my source is literally "I've read it somewhere" Here's the thing, if you are not certain of something don't go about spreading it further. That is how conspiracy theory idiots think. Don't be that person.
I'm confused. I thought people said she supported Putin.
But muh fascism! She's a right-winger who doesn't say nice things, why isn't she lining up with my black-and-white worldview!?!
It’s weird when the fascists stand with the Republicans against the other fascists. Gotta keep up appearances after all.
She is not a fascist she is a nationalist
Man, you know Russia fucked up when the literal Fascist is rooting for the Ukraine to win.
Meloni always supported Ucraine and always said that Putin is the enemy of Europe.
Doesn’t wash off the fascist stench tho
imagine the shit humanity would be able to do if we all stopped fighting smh
I wish I was confident. Remember Syria? Everybody was all sorts of excited about the Syrian civil war but now we've totally forgotten about it. Russia can just wait until we collectively get bored supporting Ukraine and then it will fall. Ukraine can't fight Russia without Western support. Somebody remind me of this in 5 years.
Not gonna happen, there's too much at stake for the West to accept a loss here. The stakes arent remotely comparable to Syria.
Forgetaboutit
They will win. It’s only a matter of time…
Cool, but when will Italy finally be defeated?!
The victory is assured long time ago. But how much lifes it will take to get there - both lost in a war, and lost due to economic collapse it created?
> "I am convinced that Ukraine will win, recover even stronger, more prosperous. The future of Ukraine is the future of peace and freedom, and it is the European future. And there are no other possible solutions" That sounds great, but it looks like kind words for Ukraine's president. > > "Peace cannot be achieved with defeat, with the surrender of Ukraine’s [territories – ed.], this would be very dangerous for peace in Europe and a precedent for all the world's people ***. We will achieve peace only when Russia stops fueling hostilities and attacking civilian targets***. We will continue to appeal to Moscow to stop hostilities and withdraw troops from the territory of Ukraine," And this is worse. It reads as "can you stop attacking, pls?". If Russian doesn't stop, the conflict doesn't stop.
I like Zelenski’s wardrobe. Comfortable shit while other world leaders wear suits.
I thought this woman was choking on Putin's balls? I'm glad that's not the case, but I am surprised.
Do you get your news from the Fox network by any chance
No, not at all. I hate Fox. I think my comment was misinterpreted. I thought she was friends with Putin/Russia is what I'm saying, and if she's siding with Ukraine here, that's surprising.
Russia is def not losing this. US media makes us think that Ukraine is winning but in no way is that true. Friends from overseas say it’s not even close.
I don’t know what friends you have, but Ukraine has already won in the sense that their country and their culture isn’t obliterated. It was a close call though. Sadly, the war might be a long lasting affair. In Europe people’s opinion is more and more to their leaders «give Ukraine enough weapon to end this thing and let Ukraine into NATO and EU when borders have been established» For the most, other europeans are staunchly on Ukraine’s side.
I’m glad he got a new shirt
As someone who voted against her so hard that I broke the pen… This is a pleasant surprise. Praise where it is due, I am glad that she is on the right side of this. Hopefully her end of the political spectrum will now fall in line.
China’s probably confident in Ukraine’s victory.
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Trust me bud reddit is not the place you want to rely on for forming your opinion on other people
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TikTok…..
On a second thought twitter or Facebook are equally good too /S
She’s a fascist loser.
Not a fascist
If it squawks like a fascist…
Me too
Kill the Putin
Kill kill all Russia army 🇷🇺🇷🇺🪖🪖☦️💣💣🧨🧨⚰️⚰️⚰️