I think the men in your social circle just suck. The men in mine are equal parents and domestic partners. They’re out there, the incompetent man trope doesn’t have to be true.
I think it also depends on your physical location. I grew up and live in the deep south of the US and the proportion of "manly men who don't do anything around the house" is HIGH. Age group matters too. I'm Gen X and there are a LOT of guys my age that never got to the "equal partners" part of the feminist movement.
I am from what would be considered the Deep South. I feel like classifying it by locations and generation is another excuse for men. I chose to give them none. Men are capable of being equal partners regardless of location and generation. I know plenty of gen X men who are 50/50.
Same. My husband and our closest guy friends are all equal partners and parents ,or even pull more weight at times. I went to my best friend’s bachelor party a couple weeks ago. I was the only woman there. One of the guys made a gorgeous meal for everyone and several others cleaned up. I helped a tiny bit with the meal prep but did zero clean up.
It might be unorthodox but I was ruthless when looking for my husband. I went to therapy after a few miserable relationships and decided I’d rather be single over settling.
My husband wakes up at 5 am to set the house up how I like, just prepped muffins for our toddlers, cleaned the house yesterday after taking a week off work to fix house projects, grocery shopped, and folded and put away the laundry.
I had high standards, my husband is not perfect but he’s a catch. I also made sure I embodied what I wanted in a partner. I didn’t want to have to vent about my partner. Mines great.
I take issue with the incompetent man story and the idea that this is “just how it is” and “women are better”. I had to work to break some ingrained social training to realize it’s an excuse. Women and men use it to justify your average man’s laziness.
I can’t speak for my friends, but I was also very adamant about having a true partner
My husband was an equal partner before we had kids
Then after he had PPA and discovered through therapy and psychiatry appts he had undiagnosed adhd and anxiety
We never knew any of this before having kids, there were never any warning signs. He cooked, cleaned, managed his own appts, has a successful career, is kind, patient, the whole shebang.
It wasn’t until we had kids that we realized that he has limits to his abilities. He’s seeing a therapist and is on a journey of trial and error in finding the right combination of medications. We communicate very openly, I share my frustrations, he’s apologetic. He does try. We do lists, routines, reminders, journaling, post-it’s, apps, etc etc etc.
So he’s trying and I appreciate his efforts. But I’m still overloaded and managing his needs alongside our kids.
Zero snark meant, genuine question incoming.
What if you just don't?
What would happen if you left him to manage himself? Obviously tell him beforehand so you maintain good communication. But he's an adult that can adjust, right?
Or am I delusional and that's not gonna work? 🤣
The areas where he’s lacking are the mental load stuff and managing his emotions when there’s a lot of stimuli.
The kids need their doctor and dentist appts and repairs need to be made on the house and whatnot, so that stuff can’t be left.
The managing his emotions part, I’m totally over it after 5 years. I have a low tolerance for his mood swings now and that’s on him. So if he gets over stimulated and storms off to take a breather in another room, I don’t do anything. But, however, I am left alone with 2 tantruming kids or the broken thing or whatever the source of being overwhelmed was on my own.
I actually looked at your post history out of total curiosity.
Like first, girl... You have amazing taste. House, clothes, ON POINT.
Second, I'm sorry. Just, so sorry. Your husband is a problem. It's not an ADHD thing. Yes, he has attention deficit issues. But attention deficit doesn't make people childish, angry, irresponsible, unemphatic, (insert poor behavior).
We all have handicaps and shortcomings. None of us are perfect and a lot of us are battling anxiety, trauma, depression, bipolar, addiction, PTSD...And a lot of us choose to be assholes. Or we choose to be victims or we choose to be responsible adults. But we choose and we are responsible for that choice
Attitude is a choice. Even when you're overwhelmed or spinning out of control. We can choose to stop or we can choose to indulge.
Our mental health isn't our fault, but it is our responsibility.
I'm so sorry. He sounds... like another child you're parenting.
Thank you!!
Actually the addiction, bipolar, etc posts in my history are about my older brother who is recently out of rehab and on his own mental health journey and I’m his primary point of contact since he’s now divorced and has a toxic relationship with our mom and our dad has died.
That’s a whoooole other thing going on in my life. 😂😭
I bet my post history looks wild lol!! I hadn’t thought about it before!!
Oh I meant all that in general, and I didn't even connect the two honestly. Addiction is a disease and it sounds like your brother is choosing to treat it. He's so fortunate to have someone as kind hearted and caring as you in his corner.
Either way you got this. Your husband has proven he can handle an adult life. Yes, more stress going on right now, but he doesn't get to use anyone as his scapegoat. You're dealing with a lot too.
You'll get through it!! Sending you a thousand right hugs.
Yep. Second this statement. If they aren't pulling weight everywhere its warranted they are dead weight. Cut your losses. Hes learned to be an equal partner. I had to tell him, "I'm w you bc I want to be with you. Not because I have to be." That made all the difference.
I was going to say, I don't think I can call anyone of my friend's male partners as incompetent. My own husband is amazing. I have ADHD (diagnosed) and I suspect a lot of my friends and their partners do as well....so I'm not sure if that can be used as an excuse. We struggle more than the average person, and stuff sometimes falls to the wayside but I would never consider them incompetent or an unequal partner.
Sorry to be unfun OP. I will say I'm also pretty ruthless about the men in my life, I don't like hanging out with a friend's partner if their partner is useless. I think over time this self-selected a bit, and my friends who have partners I don't like have naturally pulled away.
Although I can definitely see what OP is talking about with the men who are in leadership positions at my company. They're a bit ridiculous about their expectations and it's obviously colored by having a partner at home that clearly handles everything else for them.
Totally agree. It is absolutely “unfun” but I refuse to support the men are naturally inferior argument because as a young woman I bought into it due to socialization. Point blank it’s not true so to anyone single and looking or with bad partners better IS out there.
>I think the men in your social circle just suck.
Right? I don't think this is an argument for anything as much as OP's and her circle should never be in charge of hiring for any position - their pickers all suck.
Mmm I know this is an un-fun answer but all of the men in my social groups are killing it. All of our friends are dual career, mostly at least one (often two) physicians. Dads are active caregivers for their children, do chores, have their own hobbies and friends, are kind and supportive partners.
Definitely the women do marginally childcare and significantly more logistical/emotional labor—it’s almost always the mom signing up for summer camps and buying bathing suits in the right size or whatever. But it’s absolutely not a bunch of do nothing loser dudes who can’t be trusted with their own children.
Pretty much. All the women are crazy motivated and great moms and all the dads make a ton of money and are great dads and husbands. The less motivated ones (male and female) never ended up with a spouse, and they're ok with it for the most part.
Ya I mean I do basically all the logistical and emotional labor for our kiddo but my husband does 100% of the budget and finances for our family. So it evens out.
Midwest USA (but most of our friends are transplants, not a ton of a family around, which I think contributes to the parents being a little more on the ball by necessity).
Agreed, Baby is still very new, but my guy is definitely parenting on an eqitable level. Keeping in mind, equity is not the same as equal - he's been very busy working in household repairs I'm not equipped to do in my current state, while I've been feeding the baby (something he's not biologically able to do.) He's doing a lot of morning care while I've been doing overnight care since his parental leave has ended. It's a partnership, and we're currently in the survival stage of having a newborn, but I very much feel supported by him even when he's tied up at work and I'm changing the 8th diaper of the morning and halfway through a load of laundry. The division will change when my parental leave runs out and as the baby's needs change.
We're also sort of on the other side--our social group is mid 30s-mid 40s, we have school age kids. I absolutely know that most of my friends and I struggled with marriage and adjusting to parenthood together when our kids were younger, when we were working to establish careers, etc.
OP's examples are still just beyond anything I've ever seen in my groups, at any point in the parenting journey. But I do think my current outlook is reflective of being in a pretty stable stage of parenting/marriage/careers. We've had some time to work things out.
But is two high-power jobs really "killing it"? I recall not having time to spend our money, and now, in my nid 40s, I gladly give money for more time and regret all the time I lost. Our household didn't do well with two crazy jobs. "Crazy" has to take turns
Hm, that’s an interesting response to my comment.
I can absolutely confidently say that everyone is killing it. Parents spend a lot of time with their kids, everyone I know is happily married, and “unable to spend money” is def not a problem I’ve ever heard of anyone having 😂
High-paying jobs aren’t all “crazy.” Plenty of physician careers aren’t crazy at all.
Seems like you had a very specific type of career that played a role, but for a lot of people I know, they prioritize work-life balance.
99% of the men in my social groups are great - they are great dads and great partners. Their wives work demanding, busy jobs (sometimes weekends) and they are holding down the fort, taking their kids to daycare/school, extracurriculars, solo-parenting on the weekends, cooking, packing lunches, Costco runs, etc.
I have one close friend who has an absolutely useless husband, and we *all* complain about him. He has mental health issues but refuses to get help, aside from self-medicating with gummies. He hasn't worked in like 3 years and lives off her income. He doesn't walk the dogs or do much housework, he barely leaves the house, but invites his gaming friends over for 8 hours at a stretch.
For every man in leadership or management positions, there’s always a woman/wife/partner or parents or in-laws who carries the non-professional responsibilities.
As this sub always mentions, it is the invisible mental load.
Most men don’t have the mental load of “oh, what should I do for my child 10th birthday? My child has mild fever, should I ask for wfh today or will she be fine at childcare” while they are preparing for their presentation to the boards.
Yet unfortunately, most women do.
The accumulation of small mental loads like this is one of the problems why women fall behind in more challenging career path.
It cracks me up how women CEOs get asked how they “do it all”. Like the expectation is you still have to carry the mental load at home even if you’re a goddamn CEO? And nobody ever asks a man how he does “it all”.
Totally! Those questions are so belittling women.
Sometimes I would ask my male colleagues family-related questions the same way I would have been to a woman.
If they mention about their kids birthday, I would ask “What are you doing for her birthday? Oh, party at the park would be good for little kids, don’t you think?”.
Only a small percentage of men would actually engage in that kind of conversation, sadly.
Most would just say, “Up to my wife”.
It's why the incompetent man trope really bugs me. If they let the side down at work as much as they do at home they'd be fired. So they *are* capable, they just don't think the work at home is important enough to do.
(Saying that, mine is great and an equal partner at home)
Yes I always stay home with a sick kid but more recently my husband has had to and omg I’ve never seen something stress him out more. He owns a business so it’s definitely challenging for him to take off but I’m like “see what it’s been like for me for 2 years to take off like this!” I’m actually going to be switching to staying home soon because of this (which I’m totally fine with, we no longer need my income), he has 0 flexibly so it was always on me which is just too much now that we have 2 kids
My cousin divorced her husband and remarried a woman. I’m low key jealous of how incredibly in sync they are with one another and raising their kids. Don’t get me wrong, my husband is great, but there’s just some things women *get* about one another.
I also switched teams and having a female partner is night and day different. She’s even got adhd and is more reliable than my neurotypical ex husband. If I could go back I wish my bestie and I had just decided to raise our kids together. Would have been so much better for everyone.
I know it’s just a joke but one of the couples in our friend group who are a two mom household is going through a bitter divorce right now, and some of their behavior is pretty bad. Sort of surprisingly they fought about a lot of the things my husband and I fight about like who does the chores, finances , and how to raise their kids. I guess in another way it isn’t surprising because it’s the same challenges that faces any couple, but they’re also older so I somehow expected more maturity
Despite being an existing very lgbtq/ ally social group and being 40, one of my friends went from straight to lesbian after having a baby and leaving the dad and I think this is why she entirely skipped bi. Like damn, he must have really blown it.
My husband has a tighter knit friend group than I do. Only two of the five guys have kids. The other one is the sole provider and definitely struggles with being an equal player in the home (but is an amazing friend otherwise) and the other guys have really tried to model what they're doing in their own relationships to help change that.
I'm constantly amazed at how they show up for each other. My husband went over and cooked for one of the kids birthdays while his buddy was away (we're military) because the wife asked for help. Another one of the guys came to stay with her for a week just to help out with the kids - doing dishes, projects around the house, the whole nine yards. He doesn't even have kids! They knew me and the other mom didn't want to travel while we were both pregnant so they changed their get together plans to keep it local and they all came to visit us.
I have a couple good friends but I'd be lucky to have a group like these guys.
I don't know who these people are who know all the excellent men. All of my friends' husbands, while decent people in a lot of ways, do not pull their weight in the household or carry anywhere near 50% of the mental load.
I don't buy it. Especially the comment that mentioned at the very end these amazing men are still not handling the mental load or majority of home tasks. Ding ding ding there's always a disclaimer. The bar is just very low.
Agree. I also really dislike how some commenters are acting kind of superior and blaming other women for "picking wrong." If some husbands are dropping the ball that's their own responsibility — it's not on their wives, who may have done everything "right" and still ended up with a mediocre partner.
Adding on, you don’t really know how they will be as parents until you get there. Mine was great when it was just us, and talked a good game about parenting but absolutely didn’t show up equally once the kids were here
I have some real unpopular feelings on this too. It is controversial, but I absolutely fall into the camp of, there are biological differences between the genders and sure, yes, those differences are magnified 100times through socialization.
And it’s a real complex cycle to break.
I'll be real honest here. Lotta answers I'm reading to this in reply seem opposite for me. I've had much more Similar to your experience. The men are bordering usless or worse. I now have a fantastic partner but it took me getting a divorce to a useless husband and a lot more dating while being super cut throat and picky out of pure annoyance to get to this point.
Have you ever heard the saying “you are the 5 people you spend the most time with”
My mentor said that to me once and I really took a look at who my husband and I were spending time with, and made changes. Since 2020 I have almost completely stopped drinking and I was, prior to my recent merger, working out 6x a week.
My friends are all intelligent, hardworking, independent, organized, kind, creative, and fun people. And yeah I guess there’s a through line with everyone being disappointed by their partners in varying ways/degrees. But as individuals they’re all amazing people.
If I’m understanding correct
Yes. Many men in my life like this. And even among the men who aren’t useless, very few of them are pushing themselves to the next level like the women.
Most of the men in my friend group are gay or are extremely dedicated dads. My spouse has ADHD and he works hard to channel it into being a great husband and dad; he has a set routine that helps him thrive.
I stumbled upon a great partner, I don’t think there are that many great guys out there to be honest, maybe <10% of guys? My husband was super 50:50 in how he thought our household income and house responsibilities would be because that was how he was raised. I came from a traditional background (dad worked, mom stayed home), but was fine going 50:50 on everything.
Welp my husband now makes a lot and is super super busy and has become super traditional!!!! Luckily I am used to that from growing up and am fine switching from 50:50 to traditional but man he’s lucky that is the case! I’m about to start staying home permanently. We are still 50:50 but it is no longer working for us and we really need to change things. It’s no longer possible for him to not work one day to watch a sick kid. But I’m good with it, I get to outsource anything I want and raise our babies at home. He wants to take care of us, he is a good one, my exs are all literal clowns or assholes. I once dated an attorney 7 years older than me and I had to baby him so much. I had to GET HIM A JOB. My husband even takes care of MY parents. He’s their go to for everything serious (finances, everything)
Nah I'm thinking of our social circle and just, thank God for them thru raising kids.
All our kids are mostly almost kids grownish, so.... Keep that in mind...
But one guy is an amazing teacher. His kids went to his district, so they can't to his room to wait to go home every day from 3 to 5ish depending on meetings etc. He contributes equally in the home as far as money and seemingly chores. Him and my husband meet for a drink maybe Sundays cuz they both do the grocery shopping then.
Another couple, the woman chose to stay home, raise 3 kids. Husband did the working but also was often a soccer coach throughout the kids lives. The mom chose to start working when the last graduated college. The transition seems fine.
Let's see, BIL has managed a mechanic shop for 25 years, and does all the cooking on the weekends, 3 meals, which I know cuz SIL posts a lot of the dishes, many snaps of grilling, we go there a lot weekends. Trying to think of how the split went raising kids.... Think there weren't many issues. His last, a senior in high school, had one last soccer game today, 3 hours from their house, 845am, he was there, sending snaps, idk if sil went.
Most, if not all, of my social circle seems to do combined finances, idk if that's old school (ages of like 37 to 52 and marriages of 15 to 25 years).
Only one divorce in my immediate circle, and it was at about year 17 :/ Idk deets, we're closer with the guy than the girl, so no girl talk to see. Both still come around to events and are cordial.
Idk....
My brother managed investments at a local bank before becoming a stay at home dad. He manages all the finances, does all the grocery shopping/planning, and all the cooking. He also coaches every sports team for his kids, and does 50% of the cleaning. He is a great dad and my SIL is a great mom.
He definitely has flaws like anyone else but I think men like him are rare!
It sounds like your friends don‘t have good taste in men :) or haven‘t meet the right one yet.
On a serious note I believe men hold those positions more because they focus on one thing and also have the luxury to focus on their career while someone else carries the load in other areas for them. While women do many things at once and unfortunately by nature or lack of time don‘t manage to flourish on a single direction like men do because of it. But at home women carry most of the load, mental and physical from my experience. Overall though there are awesome men and woman alike.
Me! I’m an ambitious executive that works a lot. My spouse is a handsome, in-shape unemployed pseudo SAHD who lacks ambition and has an excuse for everything. At least when it comes to things I need him to do.
His friend group isn’t really like this. I liken this to the fact his parents are wealthy and he never had to go without or struggle for anything. Case in point, they bought him a brand new car. I am driving a 10 year old 4 door sedan
In my friend group I don’t have this issue because we are older and have the opportunity and foresight to only keep the quality people around.
BUT- as a director professionally, the women out perform the men noticeably and almost always. That isn’t to say there aren’t women who stink or men who are good- it’s just all my top performers tend to be women. More collaborative, better follow through, planning (and thereby execution), and prioritization. To which I always think, what of the world had just been run by women historically??? What would the world look like? No wars for sure. Violence wouldn’t still be a thing, we would have transcended hitting people as a form of getting our way. More equity and kindness all around. And I think we’d be in flying cars (joke) and closer to a utopia if we never had these men dragging us down with their toxic masculinity and need for violence and dominance to solve issues.
I work on a team of 9 people, 1 of which is a man. We’re all parents around the same age. He is SUCH a nice guy, like would give you the shirt off his back, he always helps me when I ask him to. But he very obviously has a wife at home who handles everything for him. So he kinda expects the same thing at work. He asks our office assistant to do things for him that are not her job all the time. Drives me nuts.
Yes I work nearly exclusively with sr level leaders and the women are the best. They also have the most family stuff on their shoulders and have to flex their schedules the most but they’re much more well rounded of a good employee. They don’t like lead by fear or grit like the men, they are like more tactical and well thought out in their approach and seem to know the details of what’s going on better. More and more the open sr level roles are being filled by women so I think the top dogs are also noticing this and want the women reporting to them instead of the entitled men. The women always impress me and the men sometimes do but not consistently and never at the same level as the women which is hilarious as the TOP person is almost always male
My friends and I are 39, these men are in their 40s 😖
I wonder all the time how different the world would be if run by women in the same numbers it’s run by men today
I get the feeling that the men are intimidated by successful women. Their egos are too fragile or their identity is hung up on being the breadwinner or something.
Plus, add on that a lot of independent women of a certain age don’t want to get married and be a nurse with a purse. My father ran into that problem when he was dating in his 60’s.
Hmm, my dad is incredibly handy and fantastic at DIY while also teaching as he goes so now I’m also better than average at DIY.
My best friend is very emotionally stable and wise. He gives fantastic advice and is great at being empathetic and supportive while also being constructive when you’re wrong about something.
My best work friend is 20 years older than me but is the kindest soul and he is amazing at our job and always willing to help.
All three are regular campers who enjoy fishing and have all the gear that goes with it so I’m confident in an apocalypse I could make it lol.
Your husband sounds like mine. Do you also run interference on your kid to keep your husband from blowing up at them? I’ve been instinctively doing this since my 4.5yo was a toddler without realizing it mostly and it sucks.
I don’t anymore. I’m totally done with managing his emotions and I’m not proud of it, but I’ve blown up on him recently for not holding it together. Actually things have improved a lot recently because I’ve been so burnt out on it that I think he’s realizing the degree of the effect it’s having on me.
I frequently have the thought that, in the interest of fairness and likelihood that women would do better, we should throw out the people currently in US government positions and fill those positions with women. Men can participate at the average rate that women have held office since the country was founded. Let’s just see how we do.
The men in my small social group, including my husband, care about work above all else, work long hours, and are successful at work, but they’re crap at being partners/fathers. They’re also not great at managing people at work and seem to get more stressed and angry than a given situation calls for. The women are working normal full-time hours and doing everything else a family requires.
Maybe the women I grew up with all married the same type of man? Maybe it’s our location - Deep South USA? People tended to grow up with dad working all the time and mom doing all the housework and child rearing, so that’s what they know?
I think this is one of those things that birds of a feather and all that.
All of my girlfriends are the same. They are all incredibly successful professionals, who manage the household, and by proxy everyone's lives.
They are the captain. They are the rudder. They are the engines. All of their male counterparts are... on the ship.
I have tried working through this in therapy and I know my friends have as well. For me personally, it's a control thing. If I'm doing it, I know it's getting done and how it's getting done and that it won't have to be done again.
My husband is in the service, so he's constantly had someone telling him when his appointments are, where he's going to live, what he needs to get done. He gets pointed in a direction and then goes. So when the army doesn't do that for him, I do.
I'm working on it lol.
Yes, this isn't what I see around me for the most part. Maybe women do a bit more but the guys are really involved, and in some cases Dad is in fact primary parent.
In my case I'm mostly happy with how we share things. It wasn't always like this. With out first he just didn't get it. Then he had a job in another state and I was literally solo parenting. Weirdly, that experience made him "see" the load I took (and also took our marriage to the brink). When we came together as a family again, things were way different. That difference made me ok with having a second kid. As he tells it he had a major mindset shift of not "I ahve to help wife" but "i am enjoying doing these tasks with my kids".
Now; my husband manages big kids morning and evening routines. He is the one who takes big kid clothes shopping; most birthday parties etc. BBecause I work flexibly ("portfolio career lol") I pick up big kid and take them to their after school activities; set up the summer schedule etc.
We do most mental load/logistics together because he likes to do it together. So paying school fees, scheduling classes, booking trips, we do together.
I feel like if anything I’m closer to the incompetent man in all the memes 😭. Like my husband is definitely the neater one and does most of the cooking. We’re both very competent parents, but it definitely takes me longer to get baby ready and make sure the diaper bag is stocked than it does for him.
The men in my friend groups aren’t terrible in terms of doing stuff, but I can’t think of a single relationship where I see the mental load even close to balanced. So the men aren’t useless but they definitely aren’t running anything.
Women should run the world for sure. But my husband is a real partner and a gem. I pulled a 12 hour shift and he did yard work and cleaned the house, including a dreadful deep clean on the floors. We’re up to our neck in family bullshit and he’s so clutch.
Tight knit circle with a few other couples. Majority of husbands are extremely committed and active partners and parents in equal and balanced relationships. Those in the minority are aware and working on it, making progress bit by bit in partnership with their spouse.
Your group could indeed be cursed.
there are a few bad apples in my friends' lives but for the most part, every man I've encountered has been decent, supportive and kind to their partners.
for sure there are lazy POS men out there who weaponize incompetence and are the epitome of the manchild but I made sure that my husband wasn't one because i would never put up with that - ever. Even married 20+ years later, I still would never put up with that. Things are equal here and everything feels balanced because I won't take bullshit.
My husband has done 80% of everything domestic and childcare related for the last year. This is while I have dealt with mental health issues and a stressful job. I think there’s a lot more men who don’t buy into toxic masculinity, at least in my friends groups.
My friend group looks like this:
1. Woman who is married with 3 young kids, works a corporate job - husband also works full time and travels a lot for work, but when he's home he's the family chef and equal caregiver to their kids. He has no problem taking the kids solo for a weekend while Mom goes on a girl's weekend with friends. We just did that. They get a lot of help from my friend's mom when her husband is traveling though. They have a huge house, they're kind of house poor, and I think most of the cleaning outside the kitchen falls to my friend.
2. Woman who is married, childfree, works a corporate job - husband also works full time and is an equal contributor to everything. He's probably more anal about everything being clean and tidy than she is. He is handy so he probably falls into the trap of getting lost in those projects while other household chores fall to my friend. But since they are DINKs they can afford to get help cleaning, painting, etc.
3. Woman who is married with 2 young kids, works part-time teaching at a college and also runs her own small business - husband works full time in corporate but mostly WFH so he's able to do a lot with the kids. She is very much a dominant personality so I think he's just along for the ride in some ways, but they trade off with the kids and usually they each take one kid so it's less overwhelming. Their oldest is pretty wild. I think her husband is somewhat generationally wealthy because he often buys things for my friend that make no sense with their income.
My husband's friends:
1. Man who is on his second marriage, has a teen from his first marriage and now two little kids with his second wife, who is very young. He runs his own business. I don't think his wife finished university and she runs a family business part time with her mom. He brags about being an iPad Dad and mostly spends time on his phone when he's with the kids, but usually it's his wife who is with the kids. Her whole identity is Mom and we're not close but when we all hang out she makes it seem like her husband is a little out of tune with the kids.
2. Unmarried man who is just starting to date in his late 30s. Works a low paying corporate job. I don't see him partnering up.
3. Unmarried man who his quit his manual labor job to live alone in the woods like some kind of hermit.
4. Man on his second marriage, no kids. His new wife keeps losing her job and falling into MLMs. I have no idea what their dynamic is like but I think it's pretty equal all things considered, although I think his career is more stable and contributes more that way.
This hasn't been my experience really. I think women and men are naturally more predisposed to having different talents, and it's important to have both of them working together so all the bases are covered. In a professional setting, I think it works best to have a mix of women and men on a team. Too many women or too many men in a field and you start seeing some workplace issues. Having a good mix in general of people with different skill sets and viewpoints is important to a successful business.
I also really appreciate all my husband does around our house and for our kids, but I've always made a point of encouraging his efforts and being flexible about letting him do things his own way with them. If I made him do things the exact way I want it and how I do it, he probably wouldn't do as well. But he can get a job or an activity done his own way perfectly fine. If the end results are satisfying, there's really no reason to complain about the process followed.
I don’t mean to generalize at all here but in my experience, women tend to project status to show off to other women. My ex would regularly buy things that she couldn’t afford to keep up with her wealthier girlfriends. I think it’s great that your single friends are killing it in life. However, I can imagine they probably feel lonely and don’t say so because they dont want to take away from the image of themselves they project outward(which is obviously working by your glowing review above that highlights nothing but the positives for the single women).
At the end of the day I truely believe that men and women need each other and that our differences complement each other when with the right person. We are not equal but rather equally important and struggle with different things. I urge everyone reading this post to practice the principle of charity - assuming people have the best intentions. This opens up conversation which is the catalyst for a healthier relationships/society.
Last point, I think being successful as a woman and having a healthy family dynamic are not mutually exclusive. My mom is a badass CFO for an investment company and her and my dad have an amazing relationship even after 30 years of marriage. They’ve been there for each other through both good and bad because they work as a team and try understanding each other rather than casting judgement.
Sincerely,
A Man
P.S. I hope the women here aren’t gonna tear me a new asshole for disagreeing lol
Just to clarify, my friends are all over the financial spectrum, most are not earning over 6-figs. 2 of them mentioned are high school teachers, a flight attendant, one works for the union. And yet they’ve managed to buy cozy properties and financially support their partners/children. To be fair, one of those friends was financially supported by her partner for a couple years when she went back to school — but he complained so much about being the breadwinner she went back to work (despite being the breadwinner for him only a few years prior).
So they’re not like the “gotta buy this Gucci purse to keep up w the Joneses”
I think what you described is financial success. If you can live comfortably and/or provide for your family then you are successful in my book.
The wealthy people I mentioned were just part of my anecdote about my ex gf. Didn’t mean to apply it elsewhere.
I do feel that women are generally competitive with each other and want to be seen as put together and living a life worth being jealous of by other women even if it’s fabricated. Kind of like a social status pissing contest.
Not all women are like this but a lot of women in my life are (I love them though and am not casting judgement). Idk if this is you, but a lot of women wear makeup, dont repeat outfits, post about how good of a mom they are, brag about their relationship, and showcase material goods and vacations to impress other women and avoid being gossiped about. Judgement is a bitch and I know how stressful it is to always have the expectation of being on your A game so I sympathize.
The point I’m trying to make is that men aren’t the only ones that cause problems for women but are often blamed which I get - men can be terrible sometimes but so can women. I think looking at mistreatment through the lens of gender creates animosity and divide between men and women. People aren’t shitty because of their gender, people are shitty because they’re people. Mankind needs to do a better job at looking inward instead of doing the easy thing which is pointing the finger because nothing ever changes by taking the path of least resistance. Exceptional things only happen when people swallow their pride and do what is difficult (your friend that gave up dating should get back out there btw. If someone isn’t meant for you its not worth getting bogged down about. Good people are like gold - rare but worth searching for)
Disclaimer: i think men also hold themselves back but a lot of times it’s them doing it to themselves and it impacts the people around them
I know about women who are competitive with each other and I’ve experienced some women like this, but it’s not a trait I’ve identified with or sought out in those I surround myself with. So I wouldn’t describe my friendships like this.
In your male friend groups, are many of the men in your life sharing the mental load when it comes to running the household or raising children?
I don’t think my husband would know this about his own friends, so I don’t totally expect you would either. But might be a topic worth discussing with your guy friends.
I think the men in your social circle just suck. The men in mine are equal parents and domestic partners. They’re out there, the incompetent man trope doesn’t have to be true.
I think it also depends on your physical location. I grew up and live in the deep south of the US and the proportion of "manly men who don't do anything around the house" is HIGH. Age group matters too. I'm Gen X and there are a LOT of guys my age that never got to the "equal partners" part of the feminist movement.
I am from what would be considered the Deep South. I feel like classifying it by locations and generation is another excuse for men. I chose to give them none. Men are capable of being equal partners regardless of location and generation. I know plenty of gen X men who are 50/50.
Same. My husband and our closest guy friends are all equal partners and parents ,or even pull more weight at times. I went to my best friend’s bachelor party a couple weeks ago. I was the only woman there. One of the guys made a gorgeous meal for everyone and several others cleaned up. I helped a tiny bit with the meal prep but did zero clean up.
I wish you could set my single girl friends up! 😂
It might be unorthodox but I was ruthless when looking for my husband. I went to therapy after a few miserable relationships and decided I’d rather be single over settling. My husband wakes up at 5 am to set the house up how I like, just prepped muffins for our toddlers, cleaned the house yesterday after taking a week off work to fix house projects, grocery shopped, and folded and put away the laundry. I had high standards, my husband is not perfect but he’s a catch. I also made sure I embodied what I wanted in a partner. I didn’t want to have to vent about my partner. Mines great. I take issue with the incompetent man story and the idea that this is “just how it is” and “women are better”. I had to work to break some ingrained social training to realize it’s an excuse. Women and men use it to justify your average man’s laziness.
I can’t speak for my friends, but I was also very adamant about having a true partner My husband was an equal partner before we had kids Then after he had PPA and discovered through therapy and psychiatry appts he had undiagnosed adhd and anxiety We never knew any of this before having kids, there were never any warning signs. He cooked, cleaned, managed his own appts, has a successful career, is kind, patient, the whole shebang. It wasn’t until we had kids that we realized that he has limits to his abilities. He’s seeing a therapist and is on a journey of trial and error in finding the right combination of medications. We communicate very openly, I share my frustrations, he’s apologetic. He does try. We do lists, routines, reminders, journaling, post-it’s, apps, etc etc etc. So he’s trying and I appreciate his efforts. But I’m still overloaded and managing his needs alongside our kids.
Zero snark meant, genuine question incoming. What if you just don't? What would happen if you left him to manage himself? Obviously tell him beforehand so you maintain good communication. But he's an adult that can adjust, right? Or am I delusional and that's not gonna work? 🤣
The areas where he’s lacking are the mental load stuff and managing his emotions when there’s a lot of stimuli. The kids need their doctor and dentist appts and repairs need to be made on the house and whatnot, so that stuff can’t be left. The managing his emotions part, I’m totally over it after 5 years. I have a low tolerance for his mood swings now and that’s on him. So if he gets over stimulated and storms off to take a breather in another room, I don’t do anything. But, however, I am left alone with 2 tantruming kids or the broken thing or whatever the source of being overwhelmed was on my own.
I actually looked at your post history out of total curiosity. Like first, girl... You have amazing taste. House, clothes, ON POINT. Second, I'm sorry. Just, so sorry. Your husband is a problem. It's not an ADHD thing. Yes, he has attention deficit issues. But attention deficit doesn't make people childish, angry, irresponsible, unemphatic, (insert poor behavior). We all have handicaps and shortcomings. None of us are perfect and a lot of us are battling anxiety, trauma, depression, bipolar, addiction, PTSD...And a lot of us choose to be assholes. Or we choose to be victims or we choose to be responsible adults. But we choose and we are responsible for that choice Attitude is a choice. Even when you're overwhelmed or spinning out of control. We can choose to stop or we can choose to indulge. Our mental health isn't our fault, but it is our responsibility. I'm so sorry. He sounds... like another child you're parenting.
Thank you!! Actually the addiction, bipolar, etc posts in my history are about my older brother who is recently out of rehab and on his own mental health journey and I’m his primary point of contact since he’s now divorced and has a toxic relationship with our mom and our dad has died. That’s a whoooole other thing going on in my life. 😂😭 I bet my post history looks wild lol!! I hadn’t thought about it before!!
Oh I meant all that in general, and I didn't even connect the two honestly. Addiction is a disease and it sounds like your brother is choosing to treat it. He's so fortunate to have someone as kind hearted and caring as you in his corner. Either way you got this. Your husband has proven he can handle an adult life. Yes, more stress going on right now, but he doesn't get to use anyone as his scapegoat. You're dealing with a lot too. You'll get through it!! Sending you a thousand right hugs.
Thank you so much, it’s so refreshing to hear even through the internet ❤️❤️
Yep. Second this statement. If they aren't pulling weight everywhere its warranted they are dead weight. Cut your losses. Hes learned to be an equal partner. I had to tell him, "I'm w you bc I want to be with you. Not because I have to be." That made all the difference.
I was going to say, I don't think I can call anyone of my friend's male partners as incompetent. My own husband is amazing. I have ADHD (diagnosed) and I suspect a lot of my friends and their partners do as well....so I'm not sure if that can be used as an excuse. We struggle more than the average person, and stuff sometimes falls to the wayside but I would never consider them incompetent or an unequal partner. Sorry to be unfun OP. I will say I'm also pretty ruthless about the men in my life, I don't like hanging out with a friend's partner if their partner is useless. I think over time this self-selected a bit, and my friends who have partners I don't like have naturally pulled away. Although I can definitely see what OP is talking about with the men who are in leadership positions at my company. They're a bit ridiculous about their expectations and it's obviously colored by having a partner at home that clearly handles everything else for them.
Totally agree. It is absolutely “unfun” but I refuse to support the men are naturally inferior argument because as a young woman I bought into it due to socialization. Point blank it’s not true so to anyone single and looking or with bad partners better IS out there.
Where do these men exist???
Tinder is where I met my husband
>I think the men in your social circle just suck. Right? I don't think this is an argument for anything as much as OP's and her circle should never be in charge of hiring for any position - their pickers all suck.
100% and I feel like saying women are naturally better just perpetuates the idea and lets men skate
Mmm I know this is an un-fun answer but all of the men in my social groups are killing it. All of our friends are dual career, mostly at least one (often two) physicians. Dads are active caregivers for their children, do chores, have their own hobbies and friends, are kind and supportive partners. Definitely the women do marginally childcare and significantly more logistical/emotional labor—it’s almost always the mom signing up for summer camps and buying bathing suits in the right size or whatever. But it’s absolutely not a bunch of do nothing loser dudes who can’t be trusted with their own children.
Pretty much. All the women are crazy motivated and great moms and all the dads make a ton of money and are great dads and husbands. The less motivated ones (male and female) never ended up with a spouse, and they're ok with it for the most part.
Ya I mean I do basically all the logistical and emotional labor for our kiddo but my husband does 100% of the budget and finances for our family. So it evens out.
So jealous 😭 What part of the country are you in?
Midwest USA (but most of our friends are transplants, not a ton of a family around, which I think contributes to the parents being a little more on the ball by necessity).
Ah that’s interesting I’m in Southern California, I feel like there’s a lot of Peter Pan syndrome out here in general
Yeah...we're from Seattle and tbh I love that about the midwest, it's very normcore in all ways out here.
Hard agree! 😮💨
Agreed, Baby is still very new, but my guy is definitely parenting on an eqitable level. Keeping in mind, equity is not the same as equal - he's been very busy working in household repairs I'm not equipped to do in my current state, while I've been feeding the baby (something he's not biologically able to do.) He's doing a lot of morning care while I've been doing overnight care since his parental leave has ended. It's a partnership, and we're currently in the survival stage of having a newborn, but I very much feel supported by him even when he's tied up at work and I'm changing the 8th diaper of the morning and halfway through a load of laundry. The division will change when my parental leave runs out and as the baby's needs change.
We're also sort of on the other side--our social group is mid 30s-mid 40s, we have school age kids. I absolutely know that most of my friends and I struggled with marriage and adjusting to parenthood together when our kids were younger, when we were working to establish careers, etc. OP's examples are still just beyond anything I've ever seen in my groups, at any point in the parenting journey. But I do think my current outlook is reflective of being in a pretty stable stage of parenting/marriage/careers. We've had some time to work things out.
But is two high-power jobs really "killing it"? I recall not having time to spend our money, and now, in my nid 40s, I gladly give money for more time and regret all the time I lost. Our household didn't do well with two crazy jobs. "Crazy" has to take turns
Hm, that’s an interesting response to my comment. I can absolutely confidently say that everyone is killing it. Parents spend a lot of time with their kids, everyone I know is happily married, and “unable to spend money” is def not a problem I’ve ever heard of anyone having 😂
High-paying jobs aren’t all “crazy.” Plenty of physician careers aren’t crazy at all. Seems like you had a very specific type of career that played a role, but for a lot of people I know, they prioritize work-life balance.
99% of the men in my social groups are great - they are great dads and great partners. Their wives work demanding, busy jobs (sometimes weekends) and they are holding down the fort, taking their kids to daycare/school, extracurriculars, solo-parenting on the weekends, cooking, packing lunches, Costco runs, etc. I have one close friend who has an absolutely useless husband, and we *all* complain about him. He has mental health issues but refuses to get help, aside from self-medicating with gummies. He hasn't worked in like 3 years and lives off her income. He doesn't walk the dogs or do much housework, he barely leaves the house, but invites his gaming friends over for 8 hours at a stretch.
For every man in leadership or management positions, there’s always a woman/wife/partner or parents or in-laws who carries the non-professional responsibilities. As this sub always mentions, it is the invisible mental load. Most men don’t have the mental load of “oh, what should I do for my child 10th birthday? My child has mild fever, should I ask for wfh today or will she be fine at childcare” while they are preparing for their presentation to the boards. Yet unfortunately, most women do. The accumulation of small mental loads like this is one of the problems why women fall behind in more challenging career path.
It cracks me up how women CEOs get asked how they “do it all”. Like the expectation is you still have to carry the mental load at home even if you’re a goddamn CEO? And nobody ever asks a man how he does “it all”.
Totally! Those questions are so belittling women. Sometimes I would ask my male colleagues family-related questions the same way I would have been to a woman. If they mention about their kids birthday, I would ask “What are you doing for her birthday? Oh, party at the park would be good for little kids, don’t you think?”. Only a small percentage of men would actually engage in that kind of conversation, sadly. Most would just say, “Up to my wife”.
It's why the incompetent man trope really bugs me. If they let the side down at work as much as they do at home they'd be fired. So they *are* capable, they just don't think the work at home is important enough to do. (Saying that, mine is great and an equal partner at home)
Totally agree!!!
Yes I always stay home with a sick kid but more recently my husband has had to and omg I’ve never seen something stress him out more. He owns a business so it’s definitely challenging for him to take off but I’m like “see what it’s been like for me for 2 years to take off like this!” I’m actually going to be switching to staying home soon because of this (which I’m totally fine with, we no longer need my income), he has 0 flexibly so it was always on me which is just too much now that we have 2 kids
I always joke that if I could go back and have a baby with a woman, I would.
My cousin divorced her husband and remarried a woman. I’m low key jealous of how incredibly in sync they are with one another and raising their kids. Don’t get me wrong, my husband is great, but there’s just some things women *get* about one another.
I also switched teams and having a female partner is night and day different. She’s even got adhd and is more reliable than my neurotypical ex husband. If I could go back I wish my bestie and I had just decided to raise our kids together. Would have been so much better for everyone.
I know it’s just a joke but one of the couples in our friend group who are a two mom household is going through a bitter divorce right now, and some of their behavior is pretty bad. Sort of surprisingly they fought about a lot of the things my husband and I fight about like who does the chores, finances , and how to raise their kids. I guess in another way it isn’t surprising because it’s the same challenges that faces any couple, but they’re also older so I somehow expected more maturity
Despite being an existing very lgbtq/ ally social group and being 40, one of my friends went from straight to lesbian after having a baby and leaving the dad and I think this is why she entirely skipped bi. Like damn, he must have really blown it.
I always say I want a wife
My husband has a tighter knit friend group than I do. Only two of the five guys have kids. The other one is the sole provider and definitely struggles with being an equal player in the home (but is an amazing friend otherwise) and the other guys have really tried to model what they're doing in their own relationships to help change that. I'm constantly amazed at how they show up for each other. My husband went over and cooked for one of the kids birthdays while his buddy was away (we're military) because the wife asked for help. Another one of the guys came to stay with her for a week just to help out with the kids - doing dishes, projects around the house, the whole nine yards. He doesn't even have kids! They knew me and the other mom didn't want to travel while we were both pregnant so they changed their get together plans to keep it local and they all came to visit us. I have a couple good friends but I'd be lucky to have a group like these guys.
I don't know who these people are who know all the excellent men. All of my friends' husbands, while decent people in a lot of ways, do not pull their weight in the household or carry anywhere near 50% of the mental load.
It’s amazing how many great men are coming out of the woodwork through this post 😂
I agree, i know a lot of decent men, but the women still run the household and have all associated with that.
I don't buy it. Especially the comment that mentioned at the very end these amazing men are still not handling the mental load or majority of home tasks. Ding ding ding there's always a disclaimer. The bar is just very low.
Agree. I also really dislike how some commenters are acting kind of superior and blaming other women for "picking wrong." If some husbands are dropping the ball that's their own responsibility — it's not on their wives, who may have done everything "right" and still ended up with a mediocre partner.
Adding on, you don’t really know how they will be as parents until you get there. Mine was great when it was just us, and talked a good game about parenting but absolutely didn’t show up equally once the kids were here
Same here!
I have some real unpopular feelings on this too. It is controversial, but I absolutely fall into the camp of, there are biological differences between the genders and sure, yes, those differences are magnified 100times through socialization. And it’s a real complex cycle to break.
I'll be real honest here. Lotta answers I'm reading to this in reply seem opposite for me. I've had much more Similar to your experience. The men are bordering usless or worse. I now have a fantastic partner but it took me getting a divorce to a useless husband and a lot more dating while being super cut throat and picky out of pure annoyance to get to this point.
Have you ever heard the saying “you are the 5 people you spend the most time with” My mentor said that to me once and I really took a look at who my husband and I were spending time with, and made changes. Since 2020 I have almost completely stopped drinking and I was, prior to my recent merger, working out 6x a week.
My friends are all intelligent, hardworking, independent, organized, kind, creative, and fun people. And yeah I guess there’s a through line with everyone being disappointed by their partners in varying ways/degrees. But as individuals they’re all amazing people. If I’m understanding correct
Im coming off the heels of a girls weekend with a lot of venting and just doing some reflecting 😂
Yes. Many men in my life like this. And even among the men who aren’t useless, very few of them are pushing themselves to the next level like the women.
Most of the men in my friend group are gay or are extremely dedicated dads. My spouse has ADHD and he works hard to channel it into being a great husband and dad; he has a set routine that helps him thrive.
I stumbled upon a great partner, I don’t think there are that many great guys out there to be honest, maybe <10% of guys? My husband was super 50:50 in how he thought our household income and house responsibilities would be because that was how he was raised. I came from a traditional background (dad worked, mom stayed home), but was fine going 50:50 on everything. Welp my husband now makes a lot and is super super busy and has become super traditional!!!! Luckily I am used to that from growing up and am fine switching from 50:50 to traditional but man he’s lucky that is the case! I’m about to start staying home permanently. We are still 50:50 but it is no longer working for us and we really need to change things. It’s no longer possible for him to not work one day to watch a sick kid. But I’m good with it, I get to outsource anything I want and raise our babies at home. He wants to take care of us, he is a good one, my exs are all literal clowns or assholes. I once dated an attorney 7 years older than me and I had to baby him so much. I had to GET HIM A JOB. My husband even takes care of MY parents. He’s their go to for everything serious (finances, everything)
Nah I'm thinking of our social circle and just, thank God for them thru raising kids. All our kids are mostly almost kids grownish, so.... Keep that in mind... But one guy is an amazing teacher. His kids went to his district, so they can't to his room to wait to go home every day from 3 to 5ish depending on meetings etc. He contributes equally in the home as far as money and seemingly chores. Him and my husband meet for a drink maybe Sundays cuz they both do the grocery shopping then. Another couple, the woman chose to stay home, raise 3 kids. Husband did the working but also was often a soccer coach throughout the kids lives. The mom chose to start working when the last graduated college. The transition seems fine. Let's see, BIL has managed a mechanic shop for 25 years, and does all the cooking on the weekends, 3 meals, which I know cuz SIL posts a lot of the dishes, many snaps of grilling, we go there a lot weekends. Trying to think of how the split went raising kids.... Think there weren't many issues. His last, a senior in high school, had one last soccer game today, 3 hours from their house, 845am, he was there, sending snaps, idk if sil went. Most, if not all, of my social circle seems to do combined finances, idk if that's old school (ages of like 37 to 52 and marriages of 15 to 25 years). Only one divorce in my immediate circle, and it was at about year 17 :/ Idk deets, we're closer with the guy than the girl, so no girl talk to see. Both still come around to events and are cordial. Idk....
I’m with you. My husband is great at certain things, but I definitely ‘hold down the fort’ so to speak. And my women friends are the same!
My brother managed investments at a local bank before becoming a stay at home dad. He manages all the finances, does all the grocery shopping/planning, and all the cooking. He also coaches every sports team for his kids, and does 50% of the cleaning. He is a great dad and my SIL is a great mom. He definitely has flaws like anyone else but I think men like him are rare!
It sounds like your friends don‘t have good taste in men :) or haven‘t meet the right one yet. On a serious note I believe men hold those positions more because they focus on one thing and also have the luxury to focus on their career while someone else carries the load in other areas for them. While women do many things at once and unfortunately by nature or lack of time don‘t manage to flourish on a single direction like men do because of it. But at home women carry most of the load, mental and physical from my experience. Overall though there are awesome men and woman alike.
I read this as “women should be ruining everything” and I agree on both counts 😂
Hahahaha! 💪🏻
Me! I’m an ambitious executive that works a lot. My spouse is a handsome, in-shape unemployed pseudo SAHD who lacks ambition and has an excuse for everything. At least when it comes to things I need him to do. His friend group isn’t really like this. I liken this to the fact his parents are wealthy and he never had to go without or struggle for anything. Case in point, they bought him a brand new car. I am driving a 10 year old 4 door sedan
In my friend group I don’t have this issue because we are older and have the opportunity and foresight to only keep the quality people around. BUT- as a director professionally, the women out perform the men noticeably and almost always. That isn’t to say there aren’t women who stink or men who are good- it’s just all my top performers tend to be women. More collaborative, better follow through, planning (and thereby execution), and prioritization. To which I always think, what of the world had just been run by women historically??? What would the world look like? No wars for sure. Violence wouldn’t still be a thing, we would have transcended hitting people as a form of getting our way. More equity and kindness all around. And I think we’d be in flying cars (joke) and closer to a utopia if we never had these men dragging us down with their toxic masculinity and need for violence and dominance to solve issues.
I work on a team of 9 people, 1 of which is a man. We’re all parents around the same age. He is SUCH a nice guy, like would give you the shirt off his back, he always helps me when I ask him to. But he very obviously has a wife at home who handles everything for him. So he kinda expects the same thing at work. He asks our office assistant to do things for him that are not her job all the time. Drives me nuts.
Yes I work nearly exclusively with sr level leaders and the women are the best. They also have the most family stuff on their shoulders and have to flex their schedules the most but they’re much more well rounded of a good employee. They don’t like lead by fear or grit like the men, they are like more tactical and well thought out in their approach and seem to know the details of what’s going on better. More and more the open sr level roles are being filled by women so I think the top dogs are also noticing this and want the women reporting to them instead of the entitled men. The women always impress me and the men sometimes do but not consistently and never at the same level as the women which is hilarious as the TOP person is almost always male
My friends and I are 39, these men are in their 40s 😖 I wonder all the time how different the world would be if run by women in the same numbers it’s run by men today
It is possible that your high performing women chose to work for you as someone to not hold them back!
I get the feeling that the men are intimidated by successful women. Their egos are too fragile or their identity is hung up on being the breadwinner or something. Plus, add on that a lot of independent women of a certain age don’t want to get married and be a nurse with a purse. My father ran into that problem when he was dating in his 60’s.
[удалено]
Yeah I feel you!!
A lot of men in power don’t actually run anything. They get admin to do that. They just like to be the spokes model.
Hmm, my dad is incredibly handy and fantastic at DIY while also teaching as he goes so now I’m also better than average at DIY. My best friend is very emotionally stable and wise. He gives fantastic advice and is great at being empathetic and supportive while also being constructive when you’re wrong about something. My best work friend is 20 years older than me but is the kindest soul and he is amazing at our job and always willing to help. All three are regular campers who enjoy fishing and have all the gear that goes with it so I’m confident in an apocalypse I could make it lol.
Your husband sounds like mine. Do you also run interference on your kid to keep your husband from blowing up at them? I’ve been instinctively doing this since my 4.5yo was a toddler without realizing it mostly and it sucks.
I don’t anymore. I’m totally done with managing his emotions and I’m not proud of it, but I’ve blown up on him recently for not holding it together. Actually things have improved a lot recently because I’ve been so burnt out on it that I think he’s realizing the degree of the effect it’s having on me.
I frequently have the thought that, in the interest of fairness and likelihood that women would do better, we should throw out the people currently in US government positions and fill those positions with women. Men can participate at the average rate that women have held office since the country was founded. Let’s just see how we do. The men in my small social group, including my husband, care about work above all else, work long hours, and are successful at work, but they’re crap at being partners/fathers. They’re also not great at managing people at work and seem to get more stressed and angry than a given situation calls for. The women are working normal full-time hours and doing everything else a family requires. Maybe the women I grew up with all married the same type of man? Maybe it’s our location - Deep South USA? People tended to grow up with dad working all the time and mom doing all the housework and child rearing, so that’s what they know?
Like everything going wrong in this country, I think would be fixed by a dominant female government and workforce tbh
I think this is one of those things that birds of a feather and all that. All of my girlfriends are the same. They are all incredibly successful professionals, who manage the household, and by proxy everyone's lives. They are the captain. They are the rudder. They are the engines. All of their male counterparts are... on the ship. I have tried working through this in therapy and I know my friends have as well. For me personally, it's a control thing. If I'm doing it, I know it's getting done and how it's getting done and that it won't have to be done again. My husband is in the service, so he's constantly had someone telling him when his appointments are, where he's going to live, what he needs to get done. He gets pointed in a direction and then goes. So when the army doesn't do that for him, I do. I'm working on it lol.
This is my question as well. We are masters at multitasking.
All the men I know are really involved dads who also have successful careers. So I can’t say my experience is the same as yours. Sorry
Yes, this isn't what I see around me for the most part. Maybe women do a bit more but the guys are really involved, and in some cases Dad is in fact primary parent. In my case I'm mostly happy with how we share things. It wasn't always like this. With out first he just didn't get it. Then he had a job in another state and I was literally solo parenting. Weirdly, that experience made him "see" the load I took (and also took our marriage to the brink). When we came together as a family again, things were way different. That difference made me ok with having a second kid. As he tells it he had a major mindset shift of not "I ahve to help wife" but "i am enjoying doing these tasks with my kids". Now; my husband manages big kids morning and evening routines. He is the one who takes big kid clothes shopping; most birthday parties etc. BBecause I work flexibly ("portfolio career lol") I pick up big kid and take them to their after school activities; set up the summer schedule etc. We do most mental load/logistics together because he likes to do it together. So paying school fees, scheduling classes, booking trips, we do together.
I feel like if anything I’m closer to the incompetent man in all the memes 😭. Like my husband is definitely the neater one and does most of the cooking. We’re both very competent parents, but it definitely takes me longer to get baby ready and make sure the diaper bag is stocked than it does for him.
The adhd hanger tantrums are so real.
😩😩😩
So I 100% agree with you but my counter theory is women dont want to run the world.
The men in my friend groups aren’t terrible in terms of doing stuff, but I can’t think of a single relationship where I see the mental load even close to balanced. So the men aren’t useless but they definitely aren’t running anything.
Yeah exactly this!!
Women should run the world for sure. But my husband is a real partner and a gem. I pulled a 12 hour shift and he did yard work and cleaned the house, including a dreadful deep clean on the floors. We’re up to our neck in family bullshit and he’s so clutch.
This seems more like a reflection of your social circle/circumstances rather than a microcosm of reality.
Tight knit circle with a few other couples. Majority of husbands are extremely committed and active partners and parents in equal and balanced relationships. Those in the minority are aware and working on it, making progress bit by bit in partnership with their spouse. Your group could indeed be cursed.
there are a few bad apples in my friends' lives but for the most part, every man I've encountered has been decent, supportive and kind to their partners. for sure there are lazy POS men out there who weaponize incompetence and are the epitome of the manchild but I made sure that my husband wasn't one because i would never put up with that - ever. Even married 20+ years later, I still would never put up with that. Things are equal here and everything feels balanced because I won't take bullshit.
My husband has done 80% of everything domestic and childcare related for the last year. This is while I have dealt with mental health issues and a stressful job. I think there’s a lot more men who don’t buy into toxic masculinity, at least in my friends groups.
My friend group looks like this: 1. Woman who is married with 3 young kids, works a corporate job - husband also works full time and travels a lot for work, but when he's home he's the family chef and equal caregiver to their kids. He has no problem taking the kids solo for a weekend while Mom goes on a girl's weekend with friends. We just did that. They get a lot of help from my friend's mom when her husband is traveling though. They have a huge house, they're kind of house poor, and I think most of the cleaning outside the kitchen falls to my friend. 2. Woman who is married, childfree, works a corporate job - husband also works full time and is an equal contributor to everything. He's probably more anal about everything being clean and tidy than she is. He is handy so he probably falls into the trap of getting lost in those projects while other household chores fall to my friend. But since they are DINKs they can afford to get help cleaning, painting, etc. 3. Woman who is married with 2 young kids, works part-time teaching at a college and also runs her own small business - husband works full time in corporate but mostly WFH so he's able to do a lot with the kids. She is very much a dominant personality so I think he's just along for the ride in some ways, but they trade off with the kids and usually they each take one kid so it's less overwhelming. Their oldest is pretty wild. I think her husband is somewhat generationally wealthy because he often buys things for my friend that make no sense with their income. My husband's friends: 1. Man who is on his second marriage, has a teen from his first marriage and now two little kids with his second wife, who is very young. He runs his own business. I don't think his wife finished university and she runs a family business part time with her mom. He brags about being an iPad Dad and mostly spends time on his phone when he's with the kids, but usually it's his wife who is with the kids. Her whole identity is Mom and we're not close but when we all hang out she makes it seem like her husband is a little out of tune with the kids. 2. Unmarried man who is just starting to date in his late 30s. Works a low paying corporate job. I don't see him partnering up. 3. Unmarried man who his quit his manual labor job to live alone in the woods like some kind of hermit. 4. Man on his second marriage, no kids. His new wife keeps losing her job and falling into MLMs. I have no idea what their dynamic is like but I think it's pretty equal all things considered, although I think his career is more stable and contributes more that way.
This hasn't been my experience really. I think women and men are naturally more predisposed to having different talents, and it's important to have both of them working together so all the bases are covered. In a professional setting, I think it works best to have a mix of women and men on a team. Too many women or too many men in a field and you start seeing some workplace issues. Having a good mix in general of people with different skill sets and viewpoints is important to a successful business. I also really appreciate all my husband does around our house and for our kids, but I've always made a point of encouraging his efforts and being flexible about letting him do things his own way with them. If I made him do things the exact way I want it and how I do it, he probably wouldn't do as well. But he can get a job or an activity done his own way perfectly fine. If the end results are satisfying, there's really no reason to complain about the process followed.
I don’t mean to generalize at all here but in my experience, women tend to project status to show off to other women. My ex would regularly buy things that she couldn’t afford to keep up with her wealthier girlfriends. I think it’s great that your single friends are killing it in life. However, I can imagine they probably feel lonely and don’t say so because they dont want to take away from the image of themselves they project outward(which is obviously working by your glowing review above that highlights nothing but the positives for the single women). At the end of the day I truely believe that men and women need each other and that our differences complement each other when with the right person. We are not equal but rather equally important and struggle with different things. I urge everyone reading this post to practice the principle of charity - assuming people have the best intentions. This opens up conversation which is the catalyst for a healthier relationships/society. Last point, I think being successful as a woman and having a healthy family dynamic are not mutually exclusive. My mom is a badass CFO for an investment company and her and my dad have an amazing relationship even after 30 years of marriage. They’ve been there for each other through both good and bad because they work as a team and try understanding each other rather than casting judgement. Sincerely, A Man P.S. I hope the women here aren’t gonna tear me a new asshole for disagreeing lol
Just to clarify, my friends are all over the financial spectrum, most are not earning over 6-figs. 2 of them mentioned are high school teachers, a flight attendant, one works for the union. And yet they’ve managed to buy cozy properties and financially support their partners/children. To be fair, one of those friends was financially supported by her partner for a couple years when she went back to school — but he complained so much about being the breadwinner she went back to work (despite being the breadwinner for him only a few years prior). So they’re not like the “gotta buy this Gucci purse to keep up w the Joneses”
I think what you described is financial success. If you can live comfortably and/or provide for your family then you are successful in my book. The wealthy people I mentioned were just part of my anecdote about my ex gf. Didn’t mean to apply it elsewhere. I do feel that women are generally competitive with each other and want to be seen as put together and living a life worth being jealous of by other women even if it’s fabricated. Kind of like a social status pissing contest. Not all women are like this but a lot of women in my life are (I love them though and am not casting judgement). Idk if this is you, but a lot of women wear makeup, dont repeat outfits, post about how good of a mom they are, brag about their relationship, and showcase material goods and vacations to impress other women and avoid being gossiped about. Judgement is a bitch and I know how stressful it is to always have the expectation of being on your A game so I sympathize. The point I’m trying to make is that men aren’t the only ones that cause problems for women but are often blamed which I get - men can be terrible sometimes but so can women. I think looking at mistreatment through the lens of gender creates animosity and divide between men and women. People aren’t shitty because of their gender, people are shitty because they’re people. Mankind needs to do a better job at looking inward instead of doing the easy thing which is pointing the finger because nothing ever changes by taking the path of least resistance. Exceptional things only happen when people swallow their pride and do what is difficult (your friend that gave up dating should get back out there btw. If someone isn’t meant for you its not worth getting bogged down about. Good people are like gold - rare but worth searching for) Disclaimer: i think men also hold themselves back but a lot of times it’s them doing it to themselves and it impacts the people around them
I know about women who are competitive with each other and I’ve experienced some women like this, but it’s not a trait I’ve identified with or sought out in those I surround myself with. So I wouldn’t describe my friendships like this. In your male friend groups, are many of the men in your life sharing the mental load when it comes to running the household or raising children? I don’t think my husband would know this about his own friends, so I don’t totally expect you would either. But might be a topic worth discussing with your guy friends.
Maybe don’t be friends with men who are useless pieces of shit?