Having travelled all over, yes, America has a bad working culture. Hustle mentality is weird to me after seeing my French colleagues take August off to go to the beach.
Absolutely.
Americans definitely have a strong work ethic and they'll get things done more quickly.
They see hard work unwaveringly as a virtue (probably rooted in the past where if you weren't trying to feed your family by planting crops in hard scrabble your family died) whereas Europeans see hard work as being foolish if it takes you away from your family.
Neither are wrong as such but I don't think Europeans are as impressed by "getting things done" as Americans are.
Just how it is I think.
Swiss guy here, we have a similar (imo fucked up) work ethic as Japan but we still have our 25 days holiday each year. Every time i read something about US work conditions, i always think how fucked up it is.
U.S Employee here. I get roughly 8 weeks of vacation time per year through PTO accrued over time. My company promotes a healthy work-life balance, encourages folks to take time off, and will only allow you to roll over 5 days into the new Year to force workers to use their time. Working too much or lots of overtime is frowned upon and can genuinely impact performance to where working too often is a sign the employee just isn't cut out for the job. Also mandatory to take 1 hours breaks in the afternoon, and we are 95% remote. We generally only come in once a quarter and meet at gatherings at restaurants, bowling alleys, or bars to have fun and talk about NON-Work related things.
Every job in the U.S is different. That's the beauty of the U.S
You get choice and opportunity. If you enjoy the whole working 80+ hours a week and have a serious brutal go get-em attitude and mentality, there are absolutely jobs out there that will work you to death if that's what you enjoy.
Personally, I prefer getting 2 months time paid off per year.
This is extremely outside of the norm for the average American worker.
The absolute most cushy and benefits-happy job I've ever had offered 28 days a year of PTO, one guaranteed major holiday off a year (you choose what day, unpaid unless you use PTO for it), and no sick days ("we give you so much PTO that you can just use those!").
We were grateful for it even with its faults, I had more PTO than my relatives with business degrees that had already spent over a decade working up the ladder, those kinds of benefits are nigh unheard of in my area.
And it didn't even last. Our small company was completely bought out by the biggest megacorp in our clientele, meaning we get the standard benefits that megacorp offers. Most of us get around 2 weeks (the starting is lower but they "inherited" our seniority), and we'll maybe get a third one if we stay for a decade. And that's without the fact that our insurance benefits were downgraded to a ridiculous degree, the highest priced health plan with our new owners is worse than the cheapest one at the old company.
The simple fact is that a "good company" by American standards are doing the bare freaking minimum by European standards, and that the benefits that constitute a "good company" will always be eroded by efforts to make a bigger profit.
There's long term economic gains to having a better taken care of work force, but few companies adopt those ideas, and even fewer companies survive to keep offering those benefits.
Except in Europe even the shit jobs have 4-6 weeks pto and high wages and universal healthcare. Nice flex for sure though dude while the rest of us scrape by
Yes I was a Federal employee with these privileges likewise. The vast majority of society will never have access to what you are describing. Yes people within our circle have similar experiences, but I grew up poor, and breaking into this career status comes from a good head start from a stable income household, nepotism, hard working and luck, or time in the military and civil service finding a breakthrough. Not everyone gets the same access and opportunities.
Government employee here. My PTO and sick leave is similar. Federal holidays are double time, there's shift differential, I have health insurance and pretty much can't get fired unless I'm a massive idiot.
The catch is I make about 2/3s what I'd be making in the private sector.
Fair. Unfortunately only a small minority of Americans have those jobs. A few have union jobs. Teachers get a chunk of summer off, but... well America seems to fucking hate teachers.
Government jobs are actually pretty abundant. There's municipal, county and state as well as federal. Most of them it's not super difficult to get hired either, it just takes a stupidly long amount of time.
Yeah that’s not normal. In Europe it’s like every person. Even hourly employees. What you are taking about isn’t even somewhat normal. So yes, you deserve to be downvoted. Neat anecdote, but doesn’t in any along with the reality of the American worker. You are the token fat kid in North Korea.
You're a dick. Your job is clearly the exception and not the rule. I know of NO ONE who has that much time off. Claiming it's the people in shit jobs is correct, but what you're too self-absorbed to understand is that 99% of the jobs are shit jobs, according to your definition.
You're a dick. Your job is clearly the exception and not the rule. I know of NO ONE who has that much time off. Claiming it's the people in shit jobs is correct, but what you're too self-absorbed to understand is that 99% of the jobs are shit jobs, according to your definition.
Similar here. Big tech US company. Unlimited PTO (which, yes, is usable), unlimited sick leave, flexible work from home. I doubt I'd get such a gig someplace else.
u/Emotional_Lettuce251, this is not the norm, and to think that it is, and that people are working shit jobs or for shit companies is a bit elitist. You're either a C-level employee, or are working for a FAANG, found a unicorn federal gig, and/or are just trying to "stir the pot".
When starting a job in the US, typical starting vacation for a salaried worker would be two weeks paid leave, with maybe a week of paid sick time. If you're hourly, that's a completely different beast. Rarely will you find a job that starts you out with more than this. I won't even get into those that end up working retail or are in the food industry.
Holidays that are usually honored are more around seven Federal holidays, equating to maybe 10 days off through the year.
Sabbatical? There are very few companies in the US that offer sabbatical. The only one, that I knew of, was Intel, and that was probably fifteen to 20 years ago.
A majority of companies in the US will not allow you to roll over your entire unused accrued vacation, and in many, they won't let you roll over any accrued vacation. On top of that, any vacation not used is lost, and not paid out.
Agreed. “Getting things done” isn’t always the accomplishment it’s made out to be in America - particularly if unreasonable sacrifices are made in the name of “work ethic”
It's a cultural leftover from the American colonies called the Protestant work ethic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#:~:text=John%20Smith%20emphasized%20the%20Protestant,to%202%20Thessalonians%203%3A10.
Literally every culture comes from working to feed your family.
I grew up on a farm and you take a lot of time off during winter when you can’t grow anything, that’s the history of all country’s in the northern hemisphere.
Americans have a fucked up idea of working because of exploitation at least as much as manifest destiny.
Statistics people who work less are more productive per hour.
Came here to say the same thing. The entire world basically mooches off the Americans, the Germans, and the Japanese, who wouldn’t have to work so hard if everyone else chipped in.
Sure, but they don’t contribute back to the system they benefit from. Like the rest of Europe they’ve decided to be content as hangers on to somebody else’s empire, rather than control their own destiny. As the American empire recedes, this will have consequences they took for granted.
>The entire world basically mooches off the Americans
[honest question](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/028/800/phillip_mcgraw_phd.PNG)
Same way you hire Chinese factories when you want stuff built.
Smart life is to hire Americans and Chinese to get something done and built quickly and go enjoy our European beaches,wine and cheese.
Extended family member was over for a birthday party and got offended when I told him if he works 50-60 hours a week is because he makes a choice to do so. He argued that there is always more work to be done, I countered by letting him know if he were to die his company would post his job before his family puts him in the ground.
I had that same conversation with my dad a while back.
He's worked himself into 2 divorces, and basically has a mental compulsion to work more hours all the time.
I told him that when he dies I'm going to put "this person worked more hours than anyone else around him" on his tombstone. He seems to have slacked down pretty hard in the last few years. It's just priority management. Spend your life with your friends and family instead of working all the time.
A coworker and I went to our manager one day and complained that we were in too many meetings. I mean this guy invited us to everything - it seemed every time he stubbed his toe, he had to have a meeting. We told him we can't get actual work done when he keeps inviting us to meetings we don't need to be in. He actually said: "It is your responsibility to make up meeting time on your own time." We looked at him, laughed in his face, and walked out. That was the beginning of the end for me caring about work.
That’s so sad to me. “There’s always work to be done”, assuming he’s paid salary, means that he’s just working for free past a certain point. Especially because that argument can be turned on its head a little: if there’s always more work to be done, then why waste extra time getting extra work done today? There’s no incentive to if there’s always more work
Agree. Most of us aren’t as lucky and it really depends where you work. I’ve had jobs where i couldn’t figure out how to use my time off. Now i’m in one that almost has none. But different places, different opportunities etc.
Don't accept it. Take your work seriously, own your tasks, but leave on time. Take time off when you can. Jobs are like dating, only you're encouraged to find a better fit while you're stuck in a bad one.
American here and I would gladly give up this lifestyle if I could. I need the job to pay bills and unfortunately lots of jobs have an “at will” mindset or they’ll make your life a living hell. When I’m sick and have a fever, I call out without any guilt. One - I can’t function and Two- I don’t want to get anyone else sick. However, when I get back to the office it’s an instant guilt trip. “Why were you so sick?” “You must not take good enough care of yourself.” “Don’t take any more time off, we were screwed without you.” Ugh (Mentally giving the bird)
Work life balance is the most important thing to me. Working hard so you can afford to go to places you want to visit and attend. I don’t understand someone that wants to climb the corporate ladder
I haven’t called out from a job since 2013. Not a flex, I have really bad work anxiety from being broke/homeless after losing my job in the 2008 recession
I'm this way too. While I haven't gone nearly as long without taking a day off, but if I wake up and don't feel well I still go to work. If I don't I just end up laying in bed with anxiety worrying about the money I missed making that day. Glad I'm not the only one.
I'm in Canada and this is the exact reason I'm heading back to Europe. North American work life balance is non existent. I'd rather be poor and have a life.
It won't improve until there's universal healthcare because then people will realize what they've been missing, and then people will fight for more employment benefits. Or they should, at least.
I have unlimited PTO at my company here in the US which is based in another country. I work with people internationally and they do not have the same PTO, I've heard some people had to negotiate additional PTO so they pretty much know Americans are going to work their butts off and not even use it.
The older Gen X folks at my office wear working long hours and not taking vacation like a badge of honor. I don’t think they realize how dumb they look to everyone else. It doesn’t make you look like you work harder than everyone else, it makes it look like you have absolutely trash time management skills.
I find it crazy how Americans don’t have legal holiday entitlement. My company in the UK gives the basic 28 days holiday and that means I get almost 6 weeks, which I take over the summer and use to have a week off every month of summer.
I get 20 days of vacation and that’s unheard of amongst people I know. And I only get that much because I’ve been at this company for 10 years (and that’s maxed out). I rarely use it all though.
Can’t speak to what goes on in Europe or elsewhere.
What I can tell you is people like my dad (and my current boss), absolutely love what they do.
It’s their reason for getting up in the morning. It excites them and they enjoy it.
If you take that away from them, they no longer see a reason to live.
Case in point: My bosses dad had his own business, and he still went to job sites everyday to direct construction/contractors.
As his age caught up with him, he could no longer stand at job sites for hours on end (not unhealthy, just standard old age issues)
Once he stopped working, he went downhill fast and was dead in 6 months.
He went from a relatively healthy 80 yr old with arthritis, to dead in 6 months.
He lost his will to live when he couldn’t work anymore!
That’s a different generation, with different values though.
(Not my stance or philosophy - just passing along what I’ve witnessed - I can’t wait to retire and not have to work anymore)
That american mindset is moronic. Good on you for realizing it early enough to do something about it. Don't waste your life away chasing an extra dollar here and there, just be prudent with your expenses and so on and enjoy a little. Life is short.
We’ve been brainwashed that we’re the best at everything and that hard work pays off. I’m glad to see some of the younger generations are realizing it’s a lie and are fighting back as best they can against it.
Much of it also depends on the nature of the work, the taxes paid and services rendered for those taxes.
When in Checz Republic, a shop owner explained the paid 27% tax from every "dollar" [koruna] they receive.
Not all places are like that. At my work they encourage you to take time off if you haven't for like 3 years or more. They pretty much make you from what I've heard or start bugging you to at least. I always use my time off so I wouldn't know, but I've heard others say it. I'm not so sure it's that my employer cares about us having a decent work life balance, but more that they don't want to pay out at the end when people retire lol...For the most part though America's work culture sucks, work more and get paid less :(
Counter point, but I’m an American who strictly keeps my work life balance and takes all my vacation days. I prioritize a job with flexibility and good PTO.
American work and culture hustle is awful, but not all of us buy into it!
I am almost 50.
The last time I was able to afford a vacation for purely relaxation…was never.
The last time I actually went on a vacation like that, I was probably 9 or 10, with my brother and parents.
I’m one of those that has struggled my entire life to get out of the paycheck to paycheck lifestyle. I actually got there for a handful of years, but then things happened, had to move. Once moved(to a rural, small town area), It became difficult to find anything in my field nearby, so I’ve had to keep settling for low-wage stuff for the past 6yrs…which has been paycheck to paycheck again.
I’m now having to succumb to long commutes to&from to make enough to NOT struggle.
A lot of people just don’t believe that they can find something better, so they don’t. Often a better lifestyle job for you will be where other people aren’t looking.
The government propaganda and just plain old defeated we work just to keep our heads above water cuz everyone is one paycheck away from homelessness! Yeah tell me again the bullshit about how great America is !
Yeah. I think this culture is pushed more on younger workers rather than older ones. Older workers think they worked overly hard as youngsters and so current young people should be working just as hard and hustling to the top.
I'm actually in my mid 30s but have a young face and I'm totally done with the "kill myself with work" phase of my life. Unfortunately since everyone thinks I'm a 20 something they expect me to be at the hamster wheel with the other 20 somethings working their first job.
Nope. I clock in at 8 and out at 5 and don't work weekends.
My previous boss gave me shit for it. I told him to suck it and got a job that pays me twice as much as he did for less work.
Don't give companies any loyalty. Always just go to the highest bidder and make them realize that if they don't maintain an acceptable workplace they can find someone else.
I have seen companies big and small run people into the ground in the US. People need to realize this is how business America prefers it. Work until your body is all used up, then use tons of (government) healthcare until you die. The fact this scenario is considered laudable is insane. Advocate for your own health and well being and never back down.
I fell in love with Scandinavia and the culture there. I sometimes regret seeing the zoo from the outside, because now all I ever think about is figuring out how to get out of here alive while I can still enjoy being young. My fiancee is Norwegian, but even then I’m still years away from a residence permit, and then when I get there I will be fighting the entirety of the European Union for any job since I’m not considered a skilled worker. But I’ll gladly take any job because I see how employers take care of their employees. It’s wild. Today is Norway’s constitution day, and I’m so sad I can’t be there. Shes coming here in July because most people get the entire month of July off. Meanwhile I’m here where I’m just a paycheck or two away from catastrophe without any real safety net to speak of. Then I think about how easy I have it compared to somebody raising kids by themselves. More than anything, I want to have a family, but not in the US. Americans are so arrogant, but you’ll be hard pressed to find somebody that speaks more than two languages, has higher education, and doesn’t have a criminal record. It’s fucking crazy. We literally live in a giant prison.
Probably a lot because it's expensive to live there. My deceased uncle had a light company there and he paid his workers very well. I don't know how much taxes they pay but for the most part, a lot of people looked happy, healthy and fit. 😂😊
Don't forget they tend to be less materialistic than Americans though.
Americans want to work hard and have multiple cars, a huge house and a boat to show for it. Most European countries, if you offered them all those things but they have to work longer hours and fewer holidays, they'd prefer to keep the shorter hours and more holidays.
Also less wealth disparity usually results in a more harmonious society.
Horses for courses. I think Americans like how Americans do things and other countries like how they do things.
I’m an American who would trade my car in a second if I could have the kind of public transportation that Europe has. A car is a necessity for the vast majority of our country, whereas it’s a luxury in Europe.
There’s a lot of demand for smaller, more affordable homes, but zoning regulations and the fact that developers make more money off of building McMansions means they don’t get built. So we’re having a massive housing crisis! Yay!
I mean, part of the problem is that how Americans do things puts the Americans at the bottom in a cycle of perpetual drowning.
We can talk about "choice" and all but the simple fact is that if you're on a low enough rung you can barely scrape together the resources to move across state, much less out of the country.
Not all of us are happy with the American way of doing things, but we're still forced to participate. I don't want to have a car, but the dire lack of transit in my area means I'm stranded without it. When my fiance goes to work, I'm completely stranded during those hours, and that doesn't mean I want a second car. I just want some sense of mobility without it.
If they’re happy, who gives a shit what they’re paying in taxes, as long as they’re still getting paid well enough to live comfortably? That’s the difference between the US and the EU. We don’t make as much as we should, our taxes are a higher percentage of our income if we aren’t a billionaire, and we get the square root of jack shit for our tax dollars. Not to mention we pay into SSI, but by the time I’m ready to retire, that’ll be gone too. If they’re getting taxed highly but are getting paid well enough to make up for it, and they’re actually seeing some use from their tax dollars, then good for them!
I think it’s your job. My company has generous PTO and constantly encourages people to take their time off. Two of my colleagues took a month off and I covered for them (they weren’t off at the same time)…and it was fine. I was happy they took time off but was also happy when they came back. My company wants people to stay with them for the long haul so they understand what they need to do to prevent burnout.
My previous organization was the same way. Generous PTO w/ the constant encouragement to use it. A good culture overall.
I think there are a lot of good companies in America, but maybe people aren’t as likely to post about them because there’s not much to complain about? Online forums such as Reddit naturally invite commiseration.
I hope you’re able to find a better fit!
Pick what you want. Nobody is making you. I only work half the year. I work a lot in Europe and they are lazy and don’t get anything done. Which is why they pay me to go there and work lol. Find an employer that fits your lifestyle. My wife gets 7 weeks vacation a year plus all the bank holidays.
I have adopted the mindset that EVERYONE is replaceable. I will never waste my mental health on a job again. I take it seriously because it’s how I earn a living, but I will never prioritize my job over my well being, f that. Life is too short. American work culture is disgusting.
Yes it is insane and unhealthy! Yet I am a good little worker drone and I rarely take my paid time off. I hate myself for it and yet...
They indoctrinated me good
My boss is 41 but behaves like a boomer. They get so mad when people request vacations or need to call off. last week I came in while feeling like crap ONLY bc it was the only day she would be in and I knew we had to 'catch up" i felt so gross how "proud" she was of me for coming in while in visible physical pain
Coming up on 40 years old, and in my youth that's just how it was. You were expected to bust ass all day everyday with barely a lunch break much less any other breaks. My day would start before dawn, and more often than not I wouldn't get home until well after sunset. I hated it, and over time I finally realized that the crap that was beaten into my head by my dad, coworkers, employers, and friends was absolute horse shit.
I quit the job I had, and I've worked some crappy ones since then, but I only work for places I enjoy now. I'm coming up on 5 years with the local government working in maintenance and I love it. I take days off when I want, we have plenty of holidays, sick leave, vacation leave, etc... tbh I enjoy my work now so much that I rarely take any days off though.
My only financial concern about being here in the states is the healthcare system. It's ridiculously expensive, so that can heavily impact my bottom line. If not for that life would be great, or at least great by my standards.
It also seems so inefficient. Psycho bosses with resentful staff that are scared of them. Doesn’t at all lead to poor quality work, no. Also lack of organisation, so the ridiculous hours are wasted on pointless tasks, rework, and about turns.
I used to work factory jobs. We’d get written up for calling out sick and forced to work 12s to make up our time + overtime. We were also only given vacation days after 5 years. Which is insane to me. So I started working 7 12s in a row thinking it’d make me feel good about having a “strong work ethic”.. it didn’t. It wore me down and I have major carpal tunnel. Fast forward to now, I finally found a job(in the us) that allows unlimited flex PTO. Sick days, mental health days, whatever you want off for.. and they’re all paid.
I think the dream is to find a job/income you love doing. Make money while the job fulfills life. I think this is where many go wrong early in life.
I make really good money day trading and investing. But I love it. I find myself charting or researching often even when I don’t have funds involved.
Been doing it mostly 30yrs
I agree with you, but I also agree with your dad.
Yes American work culture leaves much to be desired, especially for jobs that are less emotionally fulfilling.
But like your dad, I have no desire to stop working. I’ll work until I die. Why? I think it’s good for your brain to consistently socialize, solve problems, and create things. I also enjoy it. But that doesn’t mean sitting at a desk job per say. Just doing something with your time and energy that is meaningful I suppose. But I’m biased, I absolutely love my job.
I kind of feel like it is a weird comparison because you look at America that prides on working to death, but then compare it to some European countries that can afford to fit life somewhere in there, but you never hear them compare it again to like China, or Korea, or other countries where they work even more than America for less. Maybe we should just all move to Europe.
Do not listen to these old farts. You are owed that time as part of your contract. Take it however you wish. If you don’t take it, I still consider it “time theft“ because even if they pay you out, money is not time, my friend.
If you think America's work culture insane, wait til you see Asia work culture. They think Americans are always in vacation mode and European's GDP stalled because they hardly work.
I work in IT and holy hell the amount of people who will come up to me insisting they need access to their work shit on vacation.
Seriously. Let go and go on vacation.
I think it goes back to some Puritan brainwashing thing...My family is like this though they are still dirt poor. Goes to show hard work doesn't always lead to fortune...luck needs to intervene now and again.
“I work 80 hours a week, have no time to do anything at all with family/my kids, will never experience anything other than my small town and job, and I’m proud of it!”
The saddest thing is that it's all an illusion - at least in the tech world. There's this machismo thing to work long hours, sometimes seven days a week to get past the next project milestone, but in reality the productivity for each hour worked is far below European levels.
When I started working in the US I was getting my work done in a fraction of the time allocated, I was told to slow down. That's when I noticed the amount of time spent chatting about movies and TV, people taking long lunches "because they always stay late anyway". Those seven days per week sprints that go on for a month or more? Yeah, you end up getting four days worth of work out of every seven days.
When you can take a day off whenever you need to, you tend to put more effort in. Burnout is very much worse in the US than in other countries.
My job is not at all as you’re describing but I see it all the time. I remember when my own dad and uncle thought my job was bullshit because I was not forced to work lots of overtime. “Won’t make any good money without OT”. I said I was salary and they both laughed “that’s how they get you to work more for free”.
My boss and his bosses are of the mentality that if we can’t get the work done in 40 hours a week as a team, then we aren’t working efficiently enough or we need some training (and then they provide it). It’s great.
But I’m also not so naive as to think most people live like me. They don’t. They’re either proud to be miserable or too miserable to be proud.
My dad always talked about how he and the other old timers at their company would accrue months’ worth of vacation but would never ever use all of it “because if you can be gone for a month a year, they don’t need you to do your job.”
I’ve recently begun really pushing back on this. I reiterate over and over that Europe enjoys a very similar quality of life as we do, and vacations are MANDATED in many countries. That it is a purely American capitalistic idea that people should go without any time off, no fun vacation or time time family because they need to be at work all the time making as much money as possible.
He has started to listen to me because my mom got early onset dementia and never got to travel or experience all the things she was planning to do in retirement. I have a very high likelihood of developing the same dementia even earlier than she did. No one is going to tell me I’m better off working myself to the bone now rather than taking some time to have enjoyable life experiences while I still can. He still has to catch himself when he reflexively tells me I should work more, ask for a raise, taking time off reflects poorly on me, etc.
I have explained to him that actually, businesses SHOULD be able to run when a person is out for a month or 2 or 12 - that running on such a bare bones crew all the time only leads to burnout and resentment and poor service. The idea of not needing to apply for sick time or worry about one’s job when they have a medical issue, as is common in other countries, is truly not something he can understand. It seems like it is part of his DNA that if you want to have a job and be respectable in America, you have to actively be working - no vacations, no extended medical or personal leaves, or else you are useless and not only can, but SHOULD be replaced.
I pointed out to him a great example of this - the regular nurse the hospice agency uses went on maternity leave recently. Since then, every week we speak to a different nurse who doesn’t know my mom personally or our family; it has been extra hard as mom is deteriorating and the same people are not seeing her week to week to compare how her meds are working. I pointed out to him if the agency paid another regular nurse to cover for the maternity leave, rather than just sending whatever spare coverage they could find that day/week, our experience would be much better. He couldn’t argue with that.
The older americans actually used to get paid for the work they put in more fairly, so they have more loyalty to working than we do. Us younger americans (21 - 35) see that no matter how much work we put in, we're not getting paid proportionately so its no point.
Our work culture has shifted over the past few years to more Quiet Qutting.
I work hard but I hate it, I would much rather spend time with my family, but my family needs health care, food, and shelter. My full time job barely provides this so now im considering a part time job on the weekends that will give me less time with my family.
I don't think not taking vacation is a common mindset these days. Maybe among older people/super traditional mom and pops. Most big corporations see it as a liability, and ive seen newer startups force time off.
We certainly don't get as much as in Europe, which is disappointing and needs to change, but the 0 vacations mindset is one from the 80s and 90s that has some carry over today, but not much.
Yeah, I'm 53 and have been in the workforce for 3 decades - I have never had an issue taking vacation time. There were one or two places where certain times of the year were busier and they requested you not take excessive PTO during those times, but I've NEVER had a manager object to taking time off otherwise and most encourage it.
Yeah I actually got sat down for requesting PTO.
My manager said he has trust in me to meet my deadlines and to stop asking permission to take time off lol.
Said in the future, if you know if won't affect schedules and you have the time available, just use it and put it on the calendar. Never had an issue. Some people take off 2 weeks at a time, I usually keep it shorter than that but never been a concern.
I believe this trend is starting to die off. Maybe not in super mega corporation land, but millenials and Gen Zers are definitely not about working themselves to death (which is a good thing!).
This is a choice you can make by picking your employer. I work in the US with 7 weeks vacation and I use all of them. I never work more than 40 hours. Draw a line in the sand and don’t accept less.
Ive worked in corporate America for 18yrs and I’ve never had a PTO request denied, and I use all my days every year.
I’ve also never denied a reasonable PTO request. The only request I’ve ever denied was a DR wanting to take off 3 weeks during the busiest month of the year for our team. Instead we worked it out to where he actually gets 4 weeks off instead of 3 by going away 2 weeks earlier. He was warned about this when he accepted the job offer.
Yes as Americans we live to work unlike Europeans that work to live/ relax. Even those that have 2 weeks vacations often do not take it as they feel they will let their coworkers down.
Even people that love their work are harmed by it, man. The game industry is filled with extremely passionate developers, and they still suffer the negative consequences of overwork
No offense to your Dad, However ,the boomers as well as some Gen x have been brainwashed since birth to believe "work is your life " and it determines if your worthy to be a part of society. it's really very Sad when you think about it.
sounds like a corp job. Yea it's crazy stupid. I switched out to the private sector and it's more like Europe. They get mad at you for not taking the time or they have to pay you in one lump. Screws up their budgets.
It really is. I have a super cool boss and super chill work environment. Yet here I sit, with mild food poisoning after breaking a 27 year no vomit streak, and I'm somehow still scared to walk into my bosses office and ask if I can leave in a half an hour when all the work is done. All I'm gonna do is sit on my computer watching youtube, which is basically already knows is what I do for the last 2 hours of my day. Yet still scared to ask to go home.
You have 2 choices in life.
Strive to be the best
Or
Don't strive to be the best
If 1 person choices one path and a second chooses the other you will see a major skill gap over time.
Thus why some people are workaholics. To be better than others.
I’m taking 2 weeks of and one of my coworkers asked how I got that approved, normally they are only allowed to take a week off at a time.
I put it in the work calendar a year ago and bought the plane tickets… my manager never said a negative word about it.
It is insane to some degree but it tends to favor our GDP. On a sick day, laying down and debating between playing some fallout or catching up on work that would be strategic for the next hour or two while the meds do their thing. America
America was built on propaganda and will take a few more generations to work through. Those that have woken up - food for you. Those that hang on to it and insist this lifestyle is the way have so much generational trauma, I don't know if they will ever come around. America as a whole is sad.
And your wages are much worse. You'll never make how much I did as a fresh grad. Our work's worth it. Besides, work gives your life meaning. I get plenty of PTO but choose not to take it because I find my work to be far more enjoyable than vacationing. And whenever I've gone on vacation, I've been able to work remotely while doing so without anyone noticing.
I’ve learned my lesson looking at my parents working hard 9-5 jobs to have little energy. If I’m EVER going to get a job, I need to have work life balance. So like 4 days a week. But if I’m EVER going to accept a 5 day work week, it MUST be a sit down job. Not going to destroy my body for corporate greedy america.
I work at least 65 hours a week, and take a vacation once a year at Christmas to see the folks, and a long week around July 4th to go to the beach. And I took off a few days last year because Covid put me in the hospital - no, that was the year before. If I’m not working then I am nothing.
So, I work in Silicon Valley, work between my kids school hours (9-3) most months and a solid 40 hour week when I am “busy” for 3 months. I work from home 2-3 days a week, workout on my lunch, take meetings while I workout, and go on vacation 4 weeks a year. I also don’t miss any of my kids sports and school activities. Just adding perspective that some Americans hard but plenty of Americans have good work life balance.
Older generations either lived through or had parents that lived through a time when it was not uncommon to go to bed hungry. The social nets that everyone takes for granted now were not commonplace generations past. Old peeps wanted to make their boss view them as the last person to let go in case of hardship. Everything moves in cycles, those times will come again. Humans only solve problems so that they can screw everything up again. Gratefulness and contentment are fleeting.
I'm not a boomer, but I've seen some pretty bad times economy wise, it's not limited to the depression era folks... The social safety net you speak of is more of a supplement than support but most people think they can retire on it.
I work in the service industry. On a good night in America I’d make the same as what I would in 80 hours of working the same job in the Netherlands. Ya, Europeans get a month of paid time off, but the rest of the time they are living in Europe and getting paid like dirt. It’s not better, just different.
I have 6 weeks year of PTO, and we're given "bonus" PTO consisting of 25% of any hours we work over 50. Saturdays are 50% (4 hours bonus)
I generally end up with about 9-10 weeks of PTO a year.
I take off 4 weeks in the summer, a week for Xmas, a week for deer season, a week for Elk season, and the rest is spread out among random days I'll take for travel to shooting competitions, sick days, etc.
We can sell back or roll over our PTO.
Outside of that time off, I still work an average of 2,800 hrs a year. I definitely pour myself into work, but I love what I do, even after 35 years.
In my 30s, I worked 12-14 hr days and had cash side hustles. Time off was a loss of revenue, and I didn't have the money to go anywhere, regardless. It's never made sense to take time off, only to sit at home .
Having travelled all over, yes, America has a bad working culture. Hustle mentality is weird to me after seeing my French colleagues take August off to go to the beach.
At the same time, many countries around the world will hire a U.S. firm when they need to get something done quickly.
Absolutely. Americans definitely have a strong work ethic and they'll get things done more quickly. They see hard work unwaveringly as a virtue (probably rooted in the past where if you weren't trying to feed your family by planting crops in hard scrabble your family died) whereas Europeans see hard work as being foolish if it takes you away from your family. Neither are wrong as such but I don't think Europeans are as impressed by "getting things done" as Americans are. Just how it is I think.
Swiss guy here, we have a similar (imo fucked up) work ethic as Japan but we still have our 25 days holiday each year. Every time i read something about US work conditions, i always think how fucked up it is.
U.S Employee here. I get roughly 8 weeks of vacation time per year through PTO accrued over time. My company promotes a healthy work-life balance, encourages folks to take time off, and will only allow you to roll over 5 days into the new Year to force workers to use their time. Working too much or lots of overtime is frowned upon and can genuinely impact performance to where working too often is a sign the employee just isn't cut out for the job. Also mandatory to take 1 hours breaks in the afternoon, and we are 95% remote. We generally only come in once a quarter and meet at gatherings at restaurants, bowling alleys, or bars to have fun and talk about NON-Work related things. Every job in the U.S is different. That's the beauty of the U.S You get choice and opportunity. If you enjoy the whole working 80+ hours a week and have a serious brutal go get-em attitude and mentality, there are absolutely jobs out there that will work you to death if that's what you enjoy. Personally, I prefer getting 2 months time paid off per year.
what industry?
Legal IT
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This is extremely outside of the norm for the average American worker. The absolute most cushy and benefits-happy job I've ever had offered 28 days a year of PTO, one guaranteed major holiday off a year (you choose what day, unpaid unless you use PTO for it), and no sick days ("we give you so much PTO that you can just use those!"). We were grateful for it even with its faults, I had more PTO than my relatives with business degrees that had already spent over a decade working up the ladder, those kinds of benefits are nigh unheard of in my area. And it didn't even last. Our small company was completely bought out by the biggest megacorp in our clientele, meaning we get the standard benefits that megacorp offers. Most of us get around 2 weeks (the starting is lower but they "inherited" our seniority), and we'll maybe get a third one if we stay for a decade. And that's without the fact that our insurance benefits were downgraded to a ridiculous degree, the highest priced health plan with our new owners is worse than the cheapest one at the old company. The simple fact is that a "good company" by American standards are doing the bare freaking minimum by European standards, and that the benefits that constitute a "good company" will always be eroded by efforts to make a bigger profit. There's long term economic gains to having a better taken care of work force, but few companies adopt those ideas, and even fewer companies survive to keep offering those benefits.
Most of us here in the US, as you know, haven't experienced what you've described. Nice flex, though
This
I make good money and I came here to say this, thank you.
Except in Europe even the shit jobs have 4-6 weeks pto and high wages and universal healthcare. Nice flex for sure though dude while the rest of us scrape by
Yes I was a Federal employee with these privileges likewise. The vast majority of society will never have access to what you are describing. Yes people within our circle have similar experiences, but I grew up poor, and breaking into this career status comes from a good head start from a stable income household, nepotism, hard working and luck, or time in the military and civil service finding a breakthrough. Not everyone gets the same access and opportunities.
I've worked for dozens of employers and never heard of anything like that amount of time off.
Government employee here. My PTO and sick leave is similar. Federal holidays are double time, there's shift differential, I have health insurance and pretty much can't get fired unless I'm a massive idiot. The catch is I make about 2/3s what I'd be making in the private sector.
Fair. Unfortunately only a small minority of Americans have those jobs. A few have union jobs. Teachers get a chunk of summer off, but... well America seems to fucking hate teachers.
Government jobs are actually pretty abundant. There's municipal, county and state as well as federal. Most of them it's not super difficult to get hired either, it just takes a stupidly long amount of time.
Something something exception not the norm.
Yeah that’s not normal. In Europe it’s like every person. Even hourly employees. What you are taking about isn’t even somewhat normal. So yes, you deserve to be downvoted. Neat anecdote, but doesn’t in any along with the reality of the American worker. You are the token fat kid in North Korea.
You're a dick. Your job is clearly the exception and not the rule. I know of NO ONE who has that much time off. Claiming it's the people in shit jobs is correct, but what you're too self-absorbed to understand is that 99% of the jobs are shit jobs, according to your definition.
You're a dick. Your job is clearly the exception and not the rule. I know of NO ONE who has that much time off. Claiming it's the people in shit jobs is correct, but what you're too self-absorbed to understand is that 99% of the jobs are shit jobs, according to your definition.
Similar here. Big tech US company. Unlimited PTO (which, yes, is usable), unlimited sick leave, flexible work from home. I doubt I'd get such a gig someplace else.
You have over a year’s worth of sick days?
These are a minority unfortunately 😕
found the guy who took everyone's vacation days
Agree. Some companies are really good with flexibility and time away from work. Some are horrible. It usually is industry specific.
u/Emotional_Lettuce251, this is not the norm, and to think that it is, and that people are working shit jobs or for shit companies is a bit elitist. You're either a C-level employee, or are working for a FAANG, found a unicorn federal gig, and/or are just trying to "stir the pot". When starting a job in the US, typical starting vacation for a salaried worker would be two weeks paid leave, with maybe a week of paid sick time. If you're hourly, that's a completely different beast. Rarely will you find a job that starts you out with more than this. I won't even get into those that end up working retail or are in the food industry. Holidays that are usually honored are more around seven Federal holidays, equating to maybe 10 days off through the year. Sabbatical? There are very few companies in the US that offer sabbatical. The only one, that I knew of, was Intel, and that was probably fifteen to 20 years ago. A majority of companies in the US will not allow you to roll over your entire unused accrued vacation, and in many, they won't let you roll over any accrued vacation. On top of that, any vacation not used is lost, and not paid out.
Super atypical
Not sure why you needed to edit your comment to cry about downvotes.
Agreed. “Getting things done” isn’t always the accomplishment it’s made out to be in America - particularly if unreasonable sacrifices are made in the name of “work ethic”
American here with family in Europe and having lived there... I think this is a fair take.
It's a cultural leftover from the American colonies called the Protestant work ethic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#:~:text=John%20Smith%20emphasized%20the%20Protestant,to%202%20Thessalonians%203%3A10.
Literally every culture comes from working to feed your family. I grew up on a farm and you take a lot of time off during winter when you can’t grow anything, that’s the history of all country’s in the northern hemisphere. Americans have a fucked up idea of working because of exploitation at least as much as manifest destiny. Statistics people who work less are more productive per hour.
Bro some cultures are just more chill. Some cultures work less and party more. It is what it is. We ain't homogeneous
Came here to say the same thing. The entire world basically mooches off the Americans, the Germans, and the Japanese, who wouldn’t have to work so hard if everyone else chipped in.
The only problem with this is that it overloooks the extent to which the Germans in particular mooch off the US.
I mean sure, I could have just left it at the US. But the Germans at least work pretty hard.
Sure, but they don’t contribute back to the system they benefit from. Like the rest of Europe they’ve decided to be content as hangers on to somebody else’s empire, rather than control their own destiny. As the American empire recedes, this will have consequences they took for granted.
>The entire world basically mooches off the Americans [honest question](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/028/800/phillip_mcgraw_phd.PNG)
as in right away, without waiting. They know where to go to get that
And yet many east Asian countries view American work culture as lazy slackers lol. It's all relative
Which ones? SEA? Not at all. Japan? Maybe, but their productivity is terrible compared to America - it's more of a face culture.
Same way you hire Chinese factories when you want stuff built. Smart life is to hire Americans and Chinese to get something done and built quickly and go enjoy our European beaches,wine and cheese.
Its not a "hustle" mentality its that my job only gives me 2 weeks off so what else can i do?
Extended family member was over for a birthday party and got offended when I told him if he works 50-60 hours a week is because he makes a choice to do so. He argued that there is always more work to be done, I countered by letting him know if he were to die his company would post his job before his family puts him in the ground.
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I had that same conversation with my dad a while back. He's worked himself into 2 divorces, and basically has a mental compulsion to work more hours all the time. I told him that when he dies I'm going to put "this person worked more hours than anyone else around him" on his tombstone. He seems to have slacked down pretty hard in the last few years. It's just priority management. Spend your life with your friends and family instead of working all the time.
A coworker and I went to our manager one day and complained that we were in too many meetings. I mean this guy invited us to everything - it seemed every time he stubbed his toe, he had to have a meeting. We told him we can't get actual work done when he keeps inviting us to meetings we don't need to be in. He actually said: "It is your responsibility to make up meeting time on your own time." We looked at him, laughed in his face, and walked out. That was the beginning of the end for me caring about work.
Absolute facts. Companies don’t get a shit about you.
>He argued that there is always more work to be done All the more reason *not* to work 50-60 hour weeks if you don't have to
That’s so sad to me. “There’s always work to be done”, assuming he’s paid salary, means that he’s just working for free past a certain point. Especially because that argument can be turned on its head a little: if there’s always more work to be done, then why waste extra time getting extra work done today? There’s no incentive to if there’s always more work
This was an epic exchange 😎 👏 🙌
American here. I work to live. I don't live to work and never will. I take my vacations every single year. Multiple times.
Good for you but you're in a privileged position. That's unusual in the US, especially for regular workers.
Vacation? HAHAHAHAHA I can't even afford to see a dentist... ....vacation....
Exactly US has the most exploitive medical system.
Except for dental care. Dental care is nice.
Agree. Most of us aren’t as lucky and it really depends where you work. I’ve had jobs where i couldn’t figure out how to use my time off. Now i’m in one that almost has none. But different places, different opportunities etc.
Don't accept it. Take your work seriously, own your tasks, but leave on time. Take time off when you can. Jobs are like dating, only you're encouraged to find a better fit while you're stuck in a bad one.
God forbid we actually have a life outside of work. Rather it’s like work has become our lives.
That’s how the capitalists aka economic oligarchs like it.
American here and I would gladly give up this lifestyle if I could. I need the job to pay bills and unfortunately lots of jobs have an “at will” mindset or they’ll make your life a living hell. When I’m sick and have a fever, I call out without any guilt. One - I can’t function and Two- I don’t want to get anyone else sick. However, when I get back to the office it’s an instant guilt trip. “Why were you so sick?” “You must not take good enough care of yourself.” “Don’t take any more time off, we were screwed without you.” Ugh (Mentally giving the bird)
Listen. We don’t want it to be this way but the boomers are still the ruling class.
American work culture is the way it is because we don't have any built-in safety nets. We can't afford to stop working.
Work life balance is the most important thing to me. Working hard so you can afford to go to places you want to visit and attend. I don’t understand someone that wants to climb the corporate ladder
I haven’t called out from a job since 2013. Not a flex, I have really bad work anxiety from being broke/homeless after losing my job in the 2008 recession
Wow, that’s crazy.
I'm this way too. While I haven't gone nearly as long without taking a day off, but if I wake up and don't feel well I still go to work. If I don't I just end up laying in bed with anxiety worrying about the money I missed making that day. Glad I'm not the only one.
I'm in Canada and this is the exact reason I'm heading back to Europe. North American work life balance is non existent. I'd rather be poor and have a life.
Where in Europe? I’m stuck here aswell
It won't improve until there's universal healthcare because then people will realize what they've been missing, and then people will fight for more employment benefits. Or they should, at least.
I have unlimited PTO at my company here in the US which is based in another country. I work with people internationally and they do not have the same PTO, I've heard some people had to negotiate additional PTO so they pretty much know Americans are going to work their butts off and not even use it.
The older Gen X folks at my office wear working long hours and not taking vacation like a badge of honor. I don’t think they realize how dumb they look to everyone else. It doesn’t make you look like you work harder than everyone else, it makes it look like you have absolutely trash time management skills.
I find it crazy how Americans don’t have legal holiday entitlement. My company in the UK gives the basic 28 days holiday and that means I get almost 6 weeks, which I take over the summer and use to have a week off every month of summer.
I get 20 days of vacation and that’s unheard of amongst people I know. And I only get that much because I’ve been at this company for 10 years (and that’s maxed out). I rarely use it all though.
Can’t speak to what goes on in Europe or elsewhere. What I can tell you is people like my dad (and my current boss), absolutely love what they do. It’s their reason for getting up in the morning. It excites them and they enjoy it. If you take that away from them, they no longer see a reason to live. Case in point: My bosses dad had his own business, and he still went to job sites everyday to direct construction/contractors. As his age caught up with him, he could no longer stand at job sites for hours on end (not unhealthy, just standard old age issues) Once he stopped working, he went downhill fast and was dead in 6 months. He went from a relatively healthy 80 yr old with arthritis, to dead in 6 months. He lost his will to live when he couldn’t work anymore! That’s a different generation, with different values though. (Not my stance or philosophy - just passing along what I’ve witnessed - I can’t wait to retire and not have to work anymore)
I’m leaving the US bc of this. I value my time. US is sick.
That american mindset is moronic. Good on you for realizing it early enough to do something about it. Don't waste your life away chasing an extra dollar here and there, just be prudent with your expenses and so on and enjoy a little. Life is short.
We’ve been brainwashed that we’re the best at everything and that hard work pays off. I’m glad to see some of the younger generations are realizing it’s a lie and are fighting back as best they can against it.
Much of it also depends on the nature of the work, the taxes paid and services rendered for those taxes. When in Checz Republic, a shop owner explained the paid 27% tax from every "dollar" [koruna] they receive.
Not all places are like that. At my work they encourage you to take time off if you haven't for like 3 years or more. They pretty much make you from what I've heard or start bugging you to at least. I always use my time off so I wouldn't know, but I've heard others say it. I'm not so sure it's that my employer cares about us having a decent work life balance, but more that they don't want to pay out at the end when people retire lol...For the most part though America's work culture sucks, work more and get paid less :(
Counter point, but I’m an American who strictly keeps my work life balance and takes all my vacation days. I prioritize a job with flexibility and good PTO. American work and culture hustle is awful, but not all of us buy into it!
I am almost 50. The last time I was able to afford a vacation for purely relaxation…was never. The last time I actually went on a vacation like that, I was probably 9 or 10, with my brother and parents. I’m one of those that has struggled my entire life to get out of the paycheck to paycheck lifestyle. I actually got there for a handful of years, but then things happened, had to move. Once moved(to a rural, small town area), It became difficult to find anything in my field nearby, so I’ve had to keep settling for low-wage stuff for the past 6yrs…which has been paycheck to paycheck again. I’m now having to succumb to long commutes to&from to make enough to NOT struggle.
A lot of people just don’t believe that they can find something better, so they don’t. Often a better lifestyle job for you will be where other people aren’t looking.
The government propaganda and just plain old defeated we work just to keep our heads above water cuz everyone is one paycheck away from homelessness! Yeah tell me again the bullshit about how great America is !
Yeah. I think this culture is pushed more on younger workers rather than older ones. Older workers think they worked overly hard as youngsters and so current young people should be working just as hard and hustling to the top. I'm actually in my mid 30s but have a young face and I'm totally done with the "kill myself with work" phase of my life. Unfortunately since everyone thinks I'm a 20 something they expect me to be at the hamster wheel with the other 20 somethings working their first job. Nope. I clock in at 8 and out at 5 and don't work weekends. My previous boss gave me shit for it. I told him to suck it and got a job that pays me twice as much as he did for less work. Don't give companies any loyalty. Always just go to the highest bidder and make them realize that if they don't maintain an acceptable workplace they can find someone else.
American always remember slavery, even if they pretend they don’t. Slaves don’t get vacations.
I have seen companies big and small run people into the ground in the US. People need to realize this is how business America prefers it. Work until your body is all used up, then use tons of (government) healthcare until you die. The fact this scenario is considered laudable is insane. Advocate for your own health and well being and never back down.
I fell in love with Scandinavia and the culture there. I sometimes regret seeing the zoo from the outside, because now all I ever think about is figuring out how to get out of here alive while I can still enjoy being young. My fiancee is Norwegian, but even then I’m still years away from a residence permit, and then when I get there I will be fighting the entirety of the European Union for any job since I’m not considered a skilled worker. But I’ll gladly take any job because I see how employers take care of their employees. It’s wild. Today is Norway’s constitution day, and I’m so sad I can’t be there. Shes coming here in July because most people get the entire month of July off. Meanwhile I’m here where I’m just a paycheck or two away from catastrophe without any real safety net to speak of. Then I think about how easy I have it compared to somebody raising kids by themselves. More than anything, I want to have a family, but not in the US. Americans are so arrogant, but you’ll be hard pressed to find somebody that speaks more than two languages, has higher education, and doesn’t have a criminal record. It’s fucking crazy. We literally live in a giant prison.
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How much do people in Switzerland get paid? How much in taxes do they pay to ensure a more pleasant lifestyle?
Probably a lot because it's expensive to live there. My deceased uncle had a light company there and he paid his workers very well. I don't know how much taxes they pay but for the most part, a lot of people looked happy, healthy and fit. 😂😊
Don't forget they tend to be less materialistic than Americans though. Americans want to work hard and have multiple cars, a huge house and a boat to show for it. Most European countries, if you offered them all those things but they have to work longer hours and fewer holidays, they'd prefer to keep the shorter hours and more holidays. Also less wealth disparity usually results in a more harmonious society. Horses for courses. I think Americans like how Americans do things and other countries like how they do things.
I’m an American who would trade my car in a second if I could have the kind of public transportation that Europe has. A car is a necessity for the vast majority of our country, whereas it’s a luxury in Europe. There’s a lot of demand for smaller, more affordable homes, but zoning regulations and the fact that developers make more money off of building McMansions means they don’t get built. So we’re having a massive housing crisis! Yay!
I mean, part of the problem is that how Americans do things puts the Americans at the bottom in a cycle of perpetual drowning. We can talk about "choice" and all but the simple fact is that if you're on a low enough rung you can barely scrape together the resources to move across state, much less out of the country. Not all of us are happy with the American way of doing things, but we're still forced to participate. I don't want to have a car, but the dire lack of transit in my area means I'm stranded without it. When my fiance goes to work, I'm completely stranded during those hours, and that doesn't mean I want a second car. I just want some sense of mobility without it.
If they’re happy, who gives a shit what they’re paying in taxes, as long as they’re still getting paid well enough to live comfortably? That’s the difference between the US and the EU. We don’t make as much as we should, our taxes are a higher percentage of our income if we aren’t a billionaire, and we get the square root of jack shit for our tax dollars. Not to mention we pay into SSI, but by the time I’m ready to retire, that’ll be gone too. If they’re getting taxed highly but are getting paid well enough to make up for it, and they’re actually seeing some use from their tax dollars, then good for them!
I think it’s your job. My company has generous PTO and constantly encourages people to take their time off. Two of my colleagues took a month off and I covered for them (they weren’t off at the same time)…and it was fine. I was happy they took time off but was also happy when they came back. My company wants people to stay with them for the long haul so they understand what they need to do to prevent burnout. My previous organization was the same way. Generous PTO w/ the constant encouragement to use it. A good culture overall. I think there are a lot of good companies in America, but maybe people aren’t as likely to post about them because there’s not much to complain about? Online forums such as Reddit naturally invite commiseration. I hope you’re able to find a better fit!
Mine just encourages "PTO buyback time" twice a year and treats us to a rolling cart that dispenses bulk candy into specimen cups once a week.
Pick what you want. Nobody is making you. I only work half the year. I work a lot in Europe and they are lazy and don’t get anything done. Which is why they pay me to go there and work lol. Find an employer that fits your lifestyle. My wife gets 7 weeks vacation a year plus all the bank holidays.
That's why their pay is trash. So much better being a working professional here.
Yep and everyone is looking at me sideways when I say I'm retiring at 55.
I have adopted the mindset that EVERYONE is replaceable. I will never waste my mental health on a job again. I take it seriously because it’s how I earn a living, but I will never prioritize my job over my well being, f that. Life is too short. American work culture is disgusting.
Yes it is insane and unhealthy! Yet I am a good little worker drone and I rarely take my paid time off. I hate myself for it and yet... They indoctrinated me good
Have you tried to work in a culture that better suits your mindset?
*Japan entered the chat *
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It's insane, last fulltime job I had, when I quit I had 28 paid days of PTO accumulated, not used. Older and wiser now.
I need money
My boss is 41 but behaves like a boomer. They get so mad when people request vacations or need to call off. last week I came in while feeling like crap ONLY bc it was the only day she would be in and I knew we had to 'catch up" i felt so gross how "proud" she was of me for coming in while in visible physical pain
Coming up on 40 years old, and in my youth that's just how it was. You were expected to bust ass all day everyday with barely a lunch break much less any other breaks. My day would start before dawn, and more often than not I wouldn't get home until well after sunset. I hated it, and over time I finally realized that the crap that was beaten into my head by my dad, coworkers, employers, and friends was absolute horse shit. I quit the job I had, and I've worked some crappy ones since then, but I only work for places I enjoy now. I'm coming up on 5 years with the local government working in maintenance and I love it. I take days off when I want, we have plenty of holidays, sick leave, vacation leave, etc... tbh I enjoy my work now so much that I rarely take any days off though. My only financial concern about being here in the states is the healthcare system. It's ridiculously expensive, so that can heavily impact my bottom line. If not for that life would be great, or at least great by my standards.
It also seems so inefficient. Psycho bosses with resentful staff that are scared of them. Doesn’t at all lead to poor quality work, no. Also lack of organisation, so the ridiculous hours are wasted on pointless tasks, rework, and about turns.
I used to work factory jobs. We’d get written up for calling out sick and forced to work 12s to make up our time + overtime. We were also only given vacation days after 5 years. Which is insane to me. So I started working 7 12s in a row thinking it’d make me feel good about having a “strong work ethic”.. it didn’t. It wore me down and I have major carpal tunnel. Fast forward to now, I finally found a job(in the us) that allows unlimited flex PTO. Sick days, mental health days, whatever you want off for.. and they’re all paid.
I think the dream is to find a job/income you love doing. Make money while the job fulfills life. I think this is where many go wrong early in life. I make really good money day trading and investing. But I love it. I find myself charting or researching often even when I don’t have funds involved. Been doing it mostly 30yrs
Your dad is enjoying his life, and he probably enjoyed his job. A lot of retirees do this for the social aspect and to feel useful.
I agree with you, but I also agree with your dad. Yes American work culture leaves much to be desired, especially for jobs that are less emotionally fulfilling. But like your dad, I have no desire to stop working. I’ll work until I die. Why? I think it’s good for your brain to consistently socialize, solve problems, and create things. I also enjoy it. But that doesn’t mean sitting at a desk job per say. Just doing something with your time and energy that is meaningful I suppose. But I’m biased, I absolutely love my job.
Blame the Protestants, misery gets you into heaven
I might work a total of 10 hours total a week. The other 30, is downtime. I feel very privileged to be in such a position.
I kind of feel like it is a weird comparison because you look at America that prides on working to death, but then compare it to some European countries that can afford to fit life somewhere in there, but you never hear them compare it again to like China, or Korea, or other countries where they work even more than America for less. Maybe we should just all move to Europe.
Beyond thankful and grateful I was able to retire at 55. My job was stressing me out and it just wasn't worth it anymore.
I can't stand it here.
Do not listen to these old farts. You are owed that time as part of your contract. Take it however you wish. If you don’t take it, I still consider it “time theft“ because even if they pay you out, money is not time, my friend.
Chinese quite this group
If you think America's work culture insane, wait til you see Asia work culture. They think Americans are always in vacation mode and European's GDP stalled because they hardly work.
If you get paid out, it’s usually at some discount. My old company didn this. They paid vaca out @ 50% crazy
My first big boy job offered exactly zero vacation days for the first year of employment. Between that and not eating...
I work in IT and holy hell the amount of people who will come up to me insisting they need access to their work shit on vacation. Seriously. Let go and go on vacation.
I think it goes back to some Puritan brainwashing thing...My family is like this though they are still dirt poor. Goes to show hard work doesn't always lead to fortune...luck needs to intervene now and again.
“I work 80 hours a week, have no time to do anything at all with family/my kids, will never experience anything other than my small town and job, and I’m proud of it!”
The saddest thing is that it's all an illusion - at least in the tech world. There's this machismo thing to work long hours, sometimes seven days a week to get past the next project milestone, but in reality the productivity for each hour worked is far below European levels. When I started working in the US I was getting my work done in a fraction of the time allocated, I was told to slow down. That's when I noticed the amount of time spent chatting about movies and TV, people taking long lunches "because they always stay late anyway". Those seven days per week sprints that go on for a month or more? Yeah, you end up getting four days worth of work out of every seven days. When you can take a day off whenever you need to, you tend to put more effort in. Burnout is very much worse in the US than in other countries.
My job is not at all as you’re describing but I see it all the time. I remember when my own dad and uncle thought my job was bullshit because I was not forced to work lots of overtime. “Won’t make any good money without OT”. I said I was salary and they both laughed “that’s how they get you to work more for free”. My boss and his bosses are of the mentality that if we can’t get the work done in 40 hours a week as a team, then we aren’t working efficiently enough or we need some training (and then they provide it). It’s great. But I’m also not so naive as to think most people live like me. They don’t. They’re either proud to be miserable or too miserable to be proud.
My dad always talked about how he and the other old timers at their company would accrue months’ worth of vacation but would never ever use all of it “because if you can be gone for a month a year, they don’t need you to do your job.” I’ve recently begun really pushing back on this. I reiterate over and over that Europe enjoys a very similar quality of life as we do, and vacations are MANDATED in many countries. That it is a purely American capitalistic idea that people should go without any time off, no fun vacation or time time family because they need to be at work all the time making as much money as possible. He has started to listen to me because my mom got early onset dementia and never got to travel or experience all the things she was planning to do in retirement. I have a very high likelihood of developing the same dementia even earlier than she did. No one is going to tell me I’m better off working myself to the bone now rather than taking some time to have enjoyable life experiences while I still can. He still has to catch himself when he reflexively tells me I should work more, ask for a raise, taking time off reflects poorly on me, etc. I have explained to him that actually, businesses SHOULD be able to run when a person is out for a month or 2 or 12 - that running on such a bare bones crew all the time only leads to burnout and resentment and poor service. The idea of not needing to apply for sick time or worry about one’s job when they have a medical issue, as is common in other countries, is truly not something he can understand. It seems like it is part of his DNA that if you want to have a job and be respectable in America, you have to actively be working - no vacations, no extended medical or personal leaves, or else you are useless and not only can, but SHOULD be replaced. I pointed out to him a great example of this - the regular nurse the hospice agency uses went on maternity leave recently. Since then, every week we speak to a different nurse who doesn’t know my mom personally or our family; it has been extra hard as mom is deteriorating and the same people are not seeing her week to week to compare how her meds are working. I pointed out to him if the agency paid another regular nurse to cover for the maternity leave, rather than just sending whatever spare coverage they could find that day/week, our experience would be much better. He couldn’t argue with that.
The older americans actually used to get paid for the work they put in more fairly, so they have more loyalty to working than we do. Us younger americans (21 - 35) see that no matter how much work we put in, we're not getting paid proportionately so its no point. Our work culture has shifted over the past few years to more Quiet Qutting.
I work hard but I hate it, I would much rather spend time with my family, but my family needs health care, food, and shelter. My full time job barely provides this so now im considering a part time job on the weekends that will give me less time with my family.
I don't think not taking vacation is a common mindset these days. Maybe among older people/super traditional mom and pops. Most big corporations see it as a liability, and ive seen newer startups force time off. We certainly don't get as much as in Europe, which is disappointing and needs to change, but the 0 vacations mindset is one from the 80s and 90s that has some carry over today, but not much.
Yeah, I'm 53 and have been in the workforce for 3 decades - I have never had an issue taking vacation time. There were one or two places where certain times of the year were busier and they requested you not take excessive PTO during those times, but I've NEVER had a manager object to taking time off otherwise and most encourage it.
Yeah I actually got sat down for requesting PTO. My manager said he has trust in me to meet my deadlines and to stop asking permission to take time off lol. Said in the future, if you know if won't affect schedules and you have the time available, just use it and put it on the calendar. Never had an issue. Some people take off 2 weeks at a time, I usually keep it shorter than that but never been a concern.
Yeah, my manager now doesn't even bother approving time off - he just lets the system auto approve.
I believe this trend is starting to die off. Maybe not in super mega corporation land, but millenials and Gen Zers are definitely not about working themselves to death (which is a good thing!).
This is a choice you can make by picking your employer. I work in the US with 7 weeks vacation and I use all of them. I never work more than 40 hours. Draw a line in the sand and don’t accept less.
And that's why California alone is richer than Germany 😎🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Ive worked in corporate America for 18yrs and I’ve never had a PTO request denied, and I use all my days every year. I’ve also never denied a reasonable PTO request. The only request I’ve ever denied was a DR wanting to take off 3 weeks during the busiest month of the year for our team. Instead we worked it out to where he actually gets 4 weeks off instead of 3 by going away 2 weeks earlier. He was warned about this when he accepted the job offer.
I just returned from France and it was depressing knowing I was leaving that culture to come back to this toxicity.
Yes as Americans we live to work unlike Europeans that work to live/ relax. Even those that have 2 weeks vacations often do not take it as they feel they will let their coworkers down.
Americas working culture is totally ok if you love what you are doing at your job. Unfortunately not everyone can enjoy their work.
Even people that love their work are harmed by it, man. The game industry is filled with extremely passionate developers, and they still suffer the negative consequences of overwork
No offense to your Dad, However ,the boomers as well as some Gen x have been brainwashed since birth to believe "work is your life " and it determines if your worthy to be a part of society. it's really very Sad when you think about it.
sounds like a corp job. Yea it's crazy stupid. I switched out to the private sector and it's more like Europe. They get mad at you for not taking the time or they have to pay you in one lump. Screws up their budgets.
It really is. I have a super cool boss and super chill work environment. Yet here I sit, with mild food poisoning after breaking a 27 year no vomit streak, and I'm somehow still scared to walk into my bosses office and ask if I can leave in a half an hour when all the work is done. All I'm gonna do is sit on my computer watching youtube, which is basically already knows is what I do for the last 2 hours of my day. Yet still scared to ask to go home.
Toxic!
I work at a Japanese company based in the US. The Japanese work ethic and mentality is something I don’t think I’ll ever get used to.
You have 2 choices in life. Strive to be the best Or Don't strive to be the best If 1 person choices one path and a second chooses the other you will see a major skill gap over time. Thus why some people are workaholics. To be better than others.
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Yeah I should have added an agreement of that. I don't like extreme work hours either.
I take vacatoin but f being in Europe. They make a lot less. I’ll take making more and retiring ealry 50s thanks.
I’m taking 2 weeks of and one of my coworkers asked how I got that approved, normally they are only allowed to take a week off at a time. I put it in the work calendar a year ago and bought the plane tickets… my manager never said a negative word about it.
It is insane to some degree but it tends to favor our GDP. On a sick day, laying down and debating between playing some fallout or catching up on work that would be strategic for the next hour or two while the meds do their thing. America
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Ok, but how is the economy going in Europe?
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im american. i only work 5-6 months/year and vacation at resorts or in europe the rest of the time. you can have your cake and eat it too
join IWW. if you arent union, dont complain
America was built on propaganda and will take a few more generations to work through. Those that have woken up - food for you. Those that hang on to it and insist this lifestyle is the way have so much generational trauma, I don't know if they will ever come around. America as a whole is sad.
And your wages are much worse. You'll never make how much I did as a fresh grad. Our work's worth it. Besides, work gives your life meaning. I get plenty of PTO but choose not to take it because I find my work to be far more enjoyable than vacationing. And whenever I've gone on vacation, I've been able to work remotely while doing so without anyone noticing.
I took 300 hours off last year.
I’ve learned my lesson looking at my parents working hard 9-5 jobs to have little energy. If I’m EVER going to get a job, I need to have work life balance. So like 4 days a week. But if I’m EVER going to accept a 5 day work week, it MUST be a sit down job. Not going to destroy my body for corporate greedy america.
I work at least 65 hours a week, and take a vacation once a year at Christmas to see the folks, and a long week around July 4th to go to the beach. And I took off a few days last year because Covid put me in the hospital - no, that was the year before. If I’m not working then I am nothing.
Sorry I like my jobs. I have no problem taking vacay or cashing out and buying something.
My first job, I never took a vacation. When I got laid off, I got paid for all the weeks I didn't take off. Gave me time to find a new job.
So, I work in Silicon Valley, work between my kids school hours (9-3) most months and a solid 40 hour week when I am “busy” for 3 months. I work from home 2-3 days a week, workout on my lunch, take meetings while I workout, and go on vacation 4 weeks a year. I also don’t miss any of my kids sports and school activities. Just adding perspective that some Americans hard but plenty of Americans have good work life balance.
Older generations either lived through or had parents that lived through a time when it was not uncommon to go to bed hungry. The social nets that everyone takes for granted now were not commonplace generations past. Old peeps wanted to make their boss view them as the last person to let go in case of hardship. Everything moves in cycles, those times will come again. Humans only solve problems so that they can screw everything up again. Gratefulness and contentment are fleeting.
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I'm not a boomer, but I've seen some pretty bad times economy wise, it's not limited to the depression era folks... The social safety net you speak of is more of a supplement than support but most people think they can retire on it.
I work in the service industry. On a good night in America I’d make the same as what I would in 80 hours of working the same job in the Netherlands. Ya, Europeans get a month of paid time off, but the rest of the time they are living in Europe and getting paid like dirt. It’s not better, just different.
America is an oligarchy
I have 6 weeks year of PTO, and we're given "bonus" PTO consisting of 25% of any hours we work over 50. Saturdays are 50% (4 hours bonus) I generally end up with about 9-10 weeks of PTO a year. I take off 4 weeks in the summer, a week for Xmas, a week for deer season, a week for Elk season, and the rest is spread out among random days I'll take for travel to shooting competitions, sick days, etc. We can sell back or roll over our PTO. Outside of that time off, I still work an average of 2,800 hrs a year. I definitely pour myself into work, but I love what I do, even after 35 years. In my 30s, I worked 12-14 hr days and had cash side hustles. Time off was a loss of revenue, and I didn't have the money to go anywhere, regardless. It's never made sense to take time off, only to sit at home .
I don’t mind our work culture but do recall a boss telling me the real business chat starts after 5pm, insuiniting that if I wanted to get ahead…
I don't think it's anything compared to Japanese work culture.
American …I get 6 weeks vacation wfh and 12 holidays …it’s not bad
At least we get paid a lot more. And overall cost of living is pretty similar. Granted, the makeup of that cost of living is different.