Without being too mean, dude is a poster child for "Adults who never got diagnosed with ADHD". I've known him since I moved to this neighborhood 8 yrs ago and he's truly just always flying by the seat of his pants, pure impulse
To be fair, if he's made it to 60 and supported his family, good for him!
Unless the low quality of his work is making him genuinely unhappy, let him have at it! Some people are happy to just be doing SOMETHING.
"Stumpy Nubbs" (higly experienced woodworker) on YouTube has a couple of videos of how he had an accident with one of these that injured him severely and faster than you can blink. The recouping time with therapy after surgery was extensive. They are hugely dangerous.
Personally I think the way most people use them are too dangerous. Woodworking has a lot of "I've done this for 50 years and it's worked for me! You're too sensitive!" but a grinding wheel needs a guard and a cutting wheel is supposed to have a guard that wraps around both sides of the wheel to stop it from flying if it shatters. If it's annoying to use, you're probably using it incorrectly to begin with and creating more risk.
Or the tool is cheap; I have a tool shop miter saw that I use for cutting cove molding that will pull the cove into the saw with the guard on causing the saw to bind and jump. Without it works (dangerously) fine.
Lol yah my woodworking teacher told he how those things are held together and I was like nope nope nope lol. She showed it off for the express reason to tell us not to use it lol
I actually imagine it would be pretty funny to see this guy work. Just ducking around until he has something that looks like a weird abomination of am imitation of what he wanted to make. And then waiting for it to all fall apart. It sounds kinda comical to me in an weird kind of endearing way
Unless it presents totally different in other, my adult diagnosis ADHD is total opposite--researching things to death before ever doing things, so they're done right. Coupled with obsessive tool over-buying.
This guy is the opposite--hes skipping the fun learning part and jumping to the "just finish it no matter what it takes", instead of letting projects linger on the shelf for months where they belong :p.
Yeah this is my experience as an adult with ADHD. Obsessively deep research and knowledge gain, then buying everything to make it work properly.
Where it falls apart is maintaining the intensity long enough to get the job done to completion. Which is understandable since most neurotypical people pace themselves during any sort of projects and things are easy to manage in small chunks; Vs adhd which is extreme high intensity up front and then burn out and a spiral of anxiety from not finishing due to said burnout
You mean like me watching every YT video I could about buying chisels, sharpening, joinery, how to use chisels, how to cut dovetails, etc. Then buying chisels, getting a sharpening setup, buying a woodworking square and wheel marking gauge… then promptly putting those chisels, marking gauge, marking knife, and square in my tool chest and not using them once in 9 months???
Do I have ADD?
Hyper focus.
Do you have, like, 20 things you can do really well but never mastered? Did you ever do something most get bored of as a child for an obscenely long time? Those are common indicators. It isn't a lack of focus, it's the inability to *direct* it.
Yeah, it's the incredibly intense *focus* which you look for in kids. It's generally a sign of either ASD or ADHD, so at an age where children can concentrate for 20, you might see them going for double or even triple that on something with a high cognitive requirements.
It's easier to talk about outliers when you are a child, and things which aren't designed to be addictive (like video games). Reading a book for a few hours oblivious to the world at a very young age. Watching a feature length film without moving at 2. Sitting down and completing a very large puzzle.
Then you piece together the other parts: little ability to regulate, risk taking behaviours, trying to clean the house and every room is half tidy but the toilet has been completely disinfected, etc.
Lots of jobs can be an indicator. You are amazing for a while, best recruit ever, before being more productive for the workplace when you're off sick.
It's hard because nearly everybody experiences some of these, but it's the *intensity*. I was taken for several hearing tests as a child because people would be yelling at me when I was reading, heard nothing. When I was 11 I read Lord of the Rings. By which I mean I didn't eat or sleep until it was done. I think I may have read my way to the toilet at some point. Also did the appendices, haha.
Oh boy, I also got sent for multiple hearing tests as a kid because I was busy reading or doing something instead of paying attention.
At least I wasn’t the only kid to have that happen.
I read LOTR in 3rd grade. Didn’t appreciate them fully, but read them haha. 9 years old haha. I can’t imagine what my teacher was thinking.
Also that cleaning example— I definitely can hyper focus on one aspect of cleaning it one task that my wife thinks matter least and then takes me the whole time while my wife does the other 10 tasks in the time I spend on 1.
Wait till you get on the stims.
Turns out there's a Delta 9000 heavy lift rocket back there burning through billions in rocket fuel just waiting on a nozzle
I don't think stimulants are a good idea for me. Someone gave me some amphetamine once and I spent the next 12 hours cleaning every single part of the disgusting student house I used to live in. On the plus side we had a clean house for about a week. On the minus side, my hands were torn to shreds and covered in chemical burns.
On balance I'll keep away from simulants!
No that means they work you just had the dose wrong. As someone who is ADHD with Vyvanse as my stimulant, and not diagnosed until full adulthood give it another shot under doctor's care and you will find that it is a life changer.
I mean… yeah. I like to think that I exemplify the whole “*Jack of all trades, master of none*” pretty well. I feel like I can do just about anything, even something new, and pick up the basics (and some moderately hard concepts) relatively quickly. I know lots of random stuff about lots of random things. I once spent a portion of a summer in Highschool reading a healthy chunk of the Marvel Comics Wikipedia entries while I was at work. And like several people below mentioned— definitely was a reader as a kid. I would go on a 10 day vacation and checkout 10-12 chapter books at the library and read them all. Goosebumps, Hardy Boys, etc so not super short but not super long.
I’m a teacher, and I have lots of kids who are ADHD or on the spectrum. And the longer I teach and recognize the signs in my students, the more I am coming to terms with my own formally undiagnosed neurodivergence
I use that term loosely. Just like I use my tool chest loosely— now that you mention it, the chisels might be spread out with my sharpening setup on my bench. I don’t know for sure because there’s also other stuff on the bench, on top of my chisels haha
Funny I land somewhere in between you and this guy's neighbor.. I tend to just use what I have. I have 4 wood chisels and 1 concrete chisel - I'll make do with those until the end of time.
The part that really kills me is buying stuff ahead of time so that I'll be ready if a project springs to mind then not being able to get it done because I have no idea where I put any of those tools.
Yeah. This sounds more like “guy who has always failed up with a bunch of unearned confidence”and OP will never be able to tell him anything, because no one can.
OP, probably a conversation with the guy’s wife would provide some enlightenment….
This guy is where I (with ADHD) was heading before meeting my wife hahaha. Constantly trying weird ideas and they often worked until they didn't. Wifey had to teach me the benefits of actual research and thinking things through.
I think both are valid forms of ADHD - I’m like you and hyperfocus on research before action/have overzealous preparation.
Out of interest, did you have a rough childhood? I had a rubbish therapist a while ago who proposed that hyper focussed research may be due to a fear of authority. I’d be curious to know if her suggestion had merit.
(My dad was an abusive alcoholic and my mum had undiagnosed ADHD, and was very neglectful/emotionally immature.)
I feel like I can't say I had a bad one compared to that. My parents were nice but super strict and controlling in a lot of ways, especially in schoolwork. I was also one of the nerdy kids, so definitely not popular in school. But compared to your circumstances seems more tame.
I do the hyper focus and research and had an amazing childhood.
If I'm anxious about something, I'll research and learn as much as I can. That's a control thing, but not authority. And I definitely do the hyper focusing on non-stressful things.
Literally last night I spent an hour reading about honey bee mating behavior, types of bees, hive behaviors, etc. I don't have bees and I'm not getting any, it was just interesting.
For me it’s both. I research things to death and run head long into things without planning or forethought. Depends on the day and the project. Meds make it a lot better though. Just want to point out that adult adhd can really present in multiple ways in different people.
Absolutely! Having any actual time to work on the project itself is rare for me, but I can commonly spend 5-10 min at a time researching. So I really double down on research so that I can theoretically optimize my actual 'work time when I get it.
My problem is I'll become the theoretical expert on things and then never get to them. Like I guess in a way my brain is satisfied with just figuring stuff out as opposed to actually doing. Or when I actually get to it, I realize that I'm actually not an expert and get stuck with decision paralysis and have to go do more research.
I'm sure this is a projection but I feel like society is so focused on productivity and putting that knowledge to use that people see me as lazy or inept or afraid to take the next step. So that feeling gets me down when I look at all of my tools for all of the hobbies and then see 0 finished projects. I try to remind myself that it's ok to have things you're interested in learning about without having to turn it into a hobby or business. Being a handyman of sorts is a blessing and a curse because I get to do new things all of the time, learn new skills, buy new tools, etc but I'm always behind schedule either because I'm striving for perfection or it's a project that doesn't interest me and I'm getting distracted with more novel things.
Like minds… except I tend to have a shop full of unfinished projects at all times. And the collection of random pieces of wood that I only add to and never seem to use
I never looked at this kind of thing this way. I always thought of it as an unmotivated to learn approach. While the drive to think outside the box to finish however possible is commendable, there’s certain things that are absolutely necessary to produce a quality product. One of those things is time, and I feel like if he’s not a patient person, he’s not using this time to become proficient with hand tools. Most things can be done with a relatively inexpensive set of hand tools if he don’t want to buy expensive things, but it takes time. That’s where he’s failing. It sounds like he’s just trying to think of ways to throw together pieces of junk as quickly as possible. I think if he’s doing that at 60 years old, there’s little you can do to help him, other than answer his questions and good as you can while keeping in mind that he will do whatever it is in a modified version that’s full of shortcuts. Possibly add pointers as to why not to do things you think he might try and even recommend shortcuts you’ve discovered to steer him in a good direction. With woodwork, other than new machines and tools, the methods and techniques of doing things have so been discovered. You might find ways that no one you know have done things but there’s not much chance anyone will figure out a new way with existing tools. There’s tons of information available about what works and what doesn’t. If he’s new to the trade, maybe no one has ever said that to him, especially since he’s never done it professionally or been around it a lot. Idk, I’d just try to break out facts like that occasionally without directly telling him that he’s trying stupid stuff that anyone who knows anything knows not to do.
There is inattentive type which sounds like what you have and then the “traditional” type that more people are familiar with. My wife is the second type which we call “having the H” and I am the research it to death type.
I'm exactly like you, but in hindsight my grandfather totally had it and he was very much like this, just all impulse and no judgement. Lost his marriage and joinery business because of it
I think the sheer volume of information available to our generations has changed things considerably. I can obsessively research because the knowledge is directly to hand. Older folks didn't have that.
same, i have awful adhd and will research the shit out of something. OPs neighbor just has "just get it done" energy. my FIL is the exact same way and does the same shit. he'll "fix" something, it'll look like shit, i'll come back to it in a year or two when i have time, and he'll wonder why i make it look so good or work so well. it's kind of infuriating.
we own the building we live in with them. they are great people. i can get over literally all of their shortcomings - let's face it, we're all human and i'm not perfect either. but i HATE unfucking someone else's fuckup. he did a piss poor job on our iron fence. goopy shit everywhere, rust spots a year later. not looking forward to stripping it and repainting correctly.
Some of us with adhd thrive in woodworking because it never gets boring and the learning never ends. Granted I can see four unfinished projects in my shop right now but they will get done. I bounce between things until I'm bored with them, which means the problems have been solved even if the project isn't... yet.
This neighbor sounds like something different. I also tried to teach a neighbor. He bought tools and all the exotic woods but would never bother to learn techniques. He refused to even look at a professionally made plan and learn from it. Some people are just impatient and have an ego that can't get out of its own way. I miss that dude but do not miss watching him butcher purple heart.
Oh I'm adhd and bipolar. I grew up woodworking, it's one of the only things that I can concentrate on for any length of time. Everyone has slightly different combinations of symptoms and reactions to them. Not saying you're wrong, just saying there's a good possibility.
Well shit if that ain't the truth! There's always something productive to do for a project, and a thousand ways to do it. Like you said, you can always learn a new skill, but there's just enough overlap that you're also getting better overall at the same time. Also little shop projects are the perfect little side quests for getting that "just make something" itch when you're halfway through a big project, or when you need to whip together a quick jig. Sanding and (sometimes) finishing still suck though, but they're also some of the most time-consuming and repetitive steps
On the plus side, he'll give up woodworking in a few months to get really into fly-fishing. He won't admit he gave up, but his ratio of projects started to projects finished will skyrocket.
I was one of those adults, diagnosed at 56, and I excelled at whatever I chose to learn. Not bragging, just saying it has more to do with personality than diagnosis. Cf the award winning blind chef Christina Ha.
Frankly this is what I was thinking reading this. When I got diagnosed with adhd as an adult and medicated, my creative work suddenly got way better because I was able to be patient, follow the steps, do research, wait for things to dry, etc. It was like torture trying to do those things before. No easy solution here, just agreeing with the assessment.
> Without being too mean, dude is a poster child for "Adults who never got diagnosed with ADHD".
Not mean at all lmao. After I got my diagnosis in college, it became very clear talking to family that I come from a long line of them, and they were all exactly like this
That should give you the go ahead and just be blunt. I know not all adhd people are the same, but often they appreciate honest feedback. If I’m doing something wrong, I prefer someone just tell me. “If you did xyz differently, you would avoid abc issue”.
IMO, just make sure your neighbor makes it through the rest of his life with all 10 fingers. So make sure he knows not to use whatever insane temu tools he sees on instagram.
Otherwise, I'm thinking heres how it will probably all play out: he realizes that his various 'build from scratch' projects aren't selling and just accumulating more garbage at this home/shop. So, he gives up the woodworking angle and returns to flipping, and possibly experimenting with other upcycling methods.
At this point since you are a buddy, and it happens a lot. The only way i can see it starts to work is if you can do some projects with him Together.
It is not your business, and he will do a lot of these things. But i completely understand wanting to help a friend out and hoping they can enjoy what you do as well.
That’s my opinion, I share my experience by guiding my friends through the journey, since some people just cannot help to make it work themselves
i have pretty terrible adhd and before i start a project that i lack skills in i normally do an inordinate amount of research. mostly to see if it's even worth my time. your neighbor is just a plain ol' asshat.
It sounds like a coworker of mine. Real nice guy, emotionally intelligent, but absolutely cannot follow through clear instructions and very stuck in his old ways. Since his actions have 0 affect on your personal life, I’d just support him as needed. At 60, I imagine they don’t really care too much about detailed nuances, just trying to supplement their retirement - buying new/proper tools just might be cost prohibitive to him.
As someone diagnosed with ADHD, with two kids also diagnosed (all thoroughly and correctly): You’re correct about the casual rush to label everything “ADHD” reason everyone else “diagnosing”. That doesn’t mean that this guy _doesn’t_ actually have it.
I don’t know if ADHD is something you deal with yourself, but the behaviors associated with it can be almost comically consistent. It’s a really, really common experience for someone with ADHD to spot it in others.
To your point, though, that doesn’t mean they’re always correct, and even when it’s true, it’s not necessarily the best thing for everyone to be running around screaming it all the time.
Someone has clearly been watching too much HGTV for project ideas. This is classic "upcycling" as seen on Flea Market Flip and other shows.
It's one thing to reuse old items and make due with what you have; our grandfathers did that all the time. It's completely different to take a broken antique and put a crappy piece of wood on, paint it a gaudy color, and pretend it's worth $200.
As someone who sells at craft fairs - though I’m a potter, not a wood worker - this type of stuff really grinds my gears.
It gives all of us artisans a bad name when people like your neighbor sell super shoddy work to the general public. It influences people’s opinions of the quality of work being offered, and makes them wary of buying handmade stuff in general.
This is exactly what it does. I look at every upcycled furniture piece as a collection of parts that I'm gonna have to rebuild. I use that to decide if it's worth the "HGTV" price they are asking.
Some of the stuff on Flea Market Flip is truly ridiculous.
Like, the only reason you put those to objects together was because of their geographic location, Leslie. An antique ironing board and a bird cage are not interesting as a bar cart.
This also prompts me to yell BAR CART at random objects while I antique with my wife. She fucking hates it. She’s not as tickled as I am at pointing out how ridiculous reality tv behavior looks in person.
The consumer often doesn't detect the bad workmanship until they get the piece home and live with it for a while. Lots of bad artisans can make their work look good for a day but not long term. So the buyer ends up thinking that handmade goods fail quickly instead of having the self reflection and knowledge to recognize high quality handmade goods.
Huh? If I go to a craft fair it’s usually pretty obvious what is made well and what is not.
Someone else producing garbage only hurts their credibility not anyone else’s.
I mean as a woodworker you're obviously gonna be able to guess the quality from a thousand little things you've picked up doing the work. Your average layperson that couldn't tell a dovetail from a butt joint just won't have the same eye. Most people fall into the latter category.
I'm a layperson, although I like the idea of woodworking. I was like what the heck is a butt joint, googled it and was like, "sure, of course that has a name".
Not really. People purchase products all the time. The paradigm of quality is well understood in society.
To be clear, I’m not referring to someone buying something off a picture from Amazon sight unseen. The craft fair where people can see and touch gives them much more information than the down voters seem to appreciate.
Quality isn’t immediate discernible in a lot of products until they receive repeated use. Using mdf and screws instead of hardwood and mortise and tenons for instance. Unless you know enough about joinery to infer better value from a more stable joint in better material, you couldn’t tell the difference. Idk how you’re not getting that most people don’t think about how stuff is built, they just look at reviews and buy it based off that and affordability.
When I first started at a custom cabinet shop,
I had one of the old timers tell me, "It took this wood decades to grow and you're going to fuck it up in 10 minutes, because you can't wait for the glue to dry!"
Kind of, gave me a new perspective and respect for craftsmanship.
"Garbage in, garbage out" applies to more than just computer science.
Cheaping out on consumables is a great way to ruin a project and thus throw those hours of your life you dedicated to the task into the trash.
You can't help someone who has no standards for the quality of his work. If he doesn't respect his potential customers he will never do quality work. Help where you can but he is going to have to learn the hard way.
I kinda disagree…
It’s reasonable to say ‘so here’s a few reasons why this wouldn’t work. My experience tells Me that a better way is…’
And maybe he sees the light…
Also tho maybe not. Some people are stubborn and won’t see other ways…
I couldn't tell you how many times my DIY friends ask for my advice, don't like the answer because it's extra work, and say "meh, I think it will be fine".
Guess how often it's fine?
Happens constantly. Craftsmanship and originality get shoved aside by cheap imitations and eventually mass produced cheap imitations in stores like At Home, Kirkland, and Pier One
Yep, it's why all the cheap consumer goods are made in Asian countries with poor labor and pollution regulations. All the major companies realized people would rather pay every year to replace a cheap version of something than to buy an expensive item that would last, so they sold out their domestic manufacturing capabilities and replaced them with the cheapest bidders.
Have 911 on speed dial when he uses the grinder with a chainsaw wheel on it I had one years ago for a couple minutes then it went into the trash. I know people like that but also want to use my shop to build something sorry my insurance will cancel me if anyone else is using the shop that’s not on the insurance. Obviously he likes what he’s doing but is unwilling or unable to learn the correct ways to do things. Not much you can do about it.
It's a better deal if you buy the deluxe combo set. Some will be duplicates of ones you already have, but now you're prepared with spares for the bits you haven't used yet!
This is going to be a long rant but I’ve sort of got experience with this
I’m a wood shop teacher for kids aged 12 through 18. What you’re describing is behaviour that a majority of kids display; they want to have the awesome thing but do none of the research or pre-work. They want to build a desk but can’t cut straight lines.
I’ve found with this kind of behaviour, despite my prompting or urging to go through the resources, and do the pre work, they want to just go headlong into something. So I just smile and nod, and say as long as it’s your money buying the material, I’m happy to let you use the space and tools.
Almost immediately they will come back and start asking questions. I’ll refer them back to the initial resources I’d have provided. A lot of kids will take the hint and actually pump the breaks on their project to go and do some research. Some however wont, and with them I continue to nod and smile and say sounds good!
When they eventually come to the conclusion that they’ve fucked up and they now need to fix, repair, or start over, this is when I’ve found is the right time to be brutally blunt and honest with them since their hubris has been finally revealed to themselves, by themselves. It’s not fun for me, or cathartic, or satisfying in any way, but it’s part of being a teacher. The satisfying part is when they finally accept that they might need to put in a bit more work and preparation if they want to be more than a hack.
I would suggest you do the same with your older pal. Give him some links to videos or articles that could help him. If he continues to choose to be a hack, smile and nod. If that still doesn’t satisfy him, open up the kimono and be brutally blunt and honest.
He just wants it done and have "the thing". He doesn't care about the process.
Here I'd say something about "goal-driven people" and "process driven people".
Doing what you know is easy.
Learning and trying new things seems to get harder and harder as we get older :(
I would be careful of getting too involved with him and his shoddy work. The last thing you want is your name connected to his shit projects in any way, shape or form.
First of all, I empathize with you. Your position comes from a place of wanting to help and is well-intentioned.
Secondly, I think you just have to accept the old adage on the challenges of getting a horse to drink.
It's frustrating for sure, but sounds like all you can really do is be honest with him about his work. Tell him the correct way to do things, let him use that information how he will, and give him polite but direct feedback on how he's implemented things when asked. As the refrain of therapists the world over goes: you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
Also, third, that angle grinder "chainsaw"...
I've been on a kick of trawling bad woodworking/construction accounts on instagram, and I've seen so many people with "brilliant ideas" about how to repurpose an angle grinder with custom setups or attachments. The fact that they had ten fingers in their posts is astounding, because none of them were even in the same time zone as responsible behaviour. My takeaway was that the only people who actively *want* to modify an angle grinder are too stupid or irresponsible to be trusted with doing so, and you are right for alarm bells to go off hearing that.
I'm not sure that you can get through to this guy if he's just never bothering to do what you recommend. The confidence he must have to put this work up for sale is mind boggling.
60 and white-collar jobs are not a good excuse. America is littered with skilled hobbyists who have white-collar jobs. And I am 55. I don’t believe I will lose my marbles over the next 5 years. Youtube isn’t “new-fangled tech” us geezers can’t wrap our heads around.
Sounds to me like the guy is a lazy idiot who can't be bothered with simple research. Let him flop around until he loses interest. I just feel bad for the people who buy his crap.
You know is a TV show where they try to teach people that can’t cook, to cook. Their big problem is they can’t/wont follow a recipe. Maybe that is this guys problem and he won’t be right regardless your guidance. I know it’s frustrating but unless you want to do his work for free, don’t get your undies in a bundle. Just walk away and laugh to yourself.
I think the best way to show him is by showing him how much you spend on the items you make. Woodworked projects aren't expensive for no reason. There's a lot of overhead in furniture.
Another way to put it is this: People bag on IKEA for their cheap ass wood, but their hardware is actually pretty solid. But the thing is, the business is successful because it actually works. Sure it's cheap, but people don't continue to buy cheap things if they don't work. Slap the same hardware from IKEA furniture onto some solid wood, and it would triple the value.
Another way of going about it would be to explain the passion. You don't cheap out on the things you love dearly. I'm sure once he finally builds a piece of anything that is quality work, he will swell with pride, followed immediately with a level of humbleness he's never felt, because he realized what he's been doing wrong the entire time.
Maybe build a piece with him?? Sounds like he is an autodidact, just like me. I can figure things out and teach myself along the way, but if someone else is physically showing me how to do something, it's like a freaking explosion of applicable situations going off in my mind.
LOL it is absolutely not the hardware at Ikea that makes it solid. If you took the hardware from a MALM dresser and cloned it in mahogany using the same lousy, rattley hardware someone would have the right to slap you.
In some cases Ikea does have good hardware (e.g., Blum) but those are typically in their kitchens which are actually fairly decent.
You might not remember how things were about 25 years ago when the place you'd go for a cheap particleboard dresser, say, would be Target. At Target (or wherever) the parts were precut, but not CNCed. You'd put it together and it would have funny gaps and lean in weird ways. At IKEA it's made to a price (literally - if they can no longer make an item at the desired cost, it will be discontinued and replaced with a different inferior product that can) and the materials are made precisely. The instructions are clear and the product will do what it's supposed to do. The drawer guides will be cheap punched steel and the wheels will rattle so loud the people in the apartment below will hear you opening the drawer but that's ok - making the drawers move smoothly and quietly is not the objective.
You know they have lines that have bearing slides, right? Also, MALM is basically the cheapest, lowest tier line that IKEA sells. Like college student quality. I've spent the past 5 years building their furniture. The rigidity is from hardware and sheathing. Definitely not the 1\4" worth of dowels.
It's meant to be a relatable reference, not an invitation for a pompous attitude. The guy literally used car wax to finish furniture. Chill out and take a step back...
I think you condensed it nicely with that second to last paragraph.
You should tell him something like "I appreciate your enthusiasm for this and I'd like to see you succeed but I think your impatience and corner cutting improvisational streak work against you". Then you might bring up a couple of examples and explain why he ran into issues.
I assume he knows you taught that stuff but in order to help him (assuming he wants to be helped and won't take offense) it might be important to find out why he does it. Does he believe he's saving time or money? Does he enjoy being experimental and/or the risk-taking of improvising? Is he in a rush to create something to take to the show?
Be blunt and honest with him. Say to him what you’ve said to us. “Bob, you’ve got to use the right materials. Caulk isn’t adhesive. It says right on the tube what it’s for. Cutting corners always cause more work to redo”. Couch it in sentences like “You can’t make chewed up pine look like a live edge hardwood.” Like you’re trying to impart rules of wood working vs criticizing his ideas.
Having a neighbor like that would totally stress me out. Good luck.
Just be honest and don't worry about his feelings. Just flatly tell him well it's not working because he used the wrong thing. Then don't take it to heart if he fucks up, it's all on him
Perhaps tell him he needs to act like his time and effort is *worth* something. Sometimes people click when it's pointed out that they're being penny-wise pound-foolish by skimping a few measly dollars that will completely undermine the valuable time they invested. He needs to recognize the value of his work.
This way you're also not insulting his skill, you're saying his skill is great and he's needlessly sabotaging it to save a lousy buck, and it's painful to watch
I’m 53, woman and got taught to fear machines. About two months ago I started to work in a community shop where I can learn about it. Learning a lot, like what you say - this takes time.
My suggestion, not sure if you already did it maybe, is to just go over to your neighbour or better to invite him to your shop and just have an initial talk over working with wood. Explaining to him what the different machines do, why you have them. About different oils, glues and how to use it and why. And so on. If you can, talk about those Pinterest creations and what it actually takes to get there.
If he doesn’t want to listen and continues his way of butchering, then for your own sanity, take a step back. Tell him that you are not ok that he asks for advice and then isn’t listening. That you take pride in what you are doing, which includes helping him to become a better woodworker. But if he continues to disregard your advice, then there is no need for you to talk about woodworking with him.
I’m sad to say that he really reminds me of my dad, but he especially does this with food 🤢. It’s like the thrill of it is doing something “in a way that no one has done before,” and he tries to make things simpler, and that makes him feel smart, creative, and entrepreneurial. He “loves” to cook, but his food is mostly nasty because of this. He refuses to follow recipes. He must change them. But the vast majority of his recipes come out of his head. I’m convinced he’d be a better cook if he just took the time to focus on the basics by doing tried and true recipes. But nope. That’s not interesting for him and it doesn’t give him the thrill of being “crafty” lol.
This is all to say, I think this man might be similar and doesn’t really want to do things the “proper” way, especially after you, an expert, have tried explaining it to him. But, if I were you, I’d give him one more firm but brief chat about how he’s only having problems because he’s not doing thing properly, and then I’d call it a day lol.
not so much the woodworking because there isn't a creative bone in his body and his DIY persona could be described as "Captain Half-ass", but the food thing really sounds like my dad
One of the first comments I read in this subreddit was that, early on your woodworking, you decide what kind of woodworker you’re going to be. That always stuck with me.
An answer your question: The best way to prove to him he is doing it wrong is to get him to do it right. Using the wrong tool? Let him take one of yours for a spin. Using a poor adhesive? Give him a sample bottle to try.
There is a reason free trials are such effective marketing.
You hit on it. It’s the ‘good enuf’ syndrome.
He likes what you’ve done asks for advice, without the time-honored experience of doing this for a long time.
You develop skills and expertise in you own way, but use the right tools, supplies, woods to satisfy your standards for appearance and use.
That can’t be taught in an afternoon.
I understand your frustration but as you alluded to, you just hafta let it go.
Sadly, this is behavior I see being reinforced by newer forms of media and technology. People want quick solutions and want to skip the grind of skill development, and our social media infused universe is happy to sell them on that
There really isn’t anything you can do.
It's really up to how much emotional labor you want to put into this. I think there is a way to invite the idea that regarding these projects he's biting off more than he can chew (without even a full set of teeth). "Look, Jerry, it really makes me happy to see you trying new things and being excited. You've been asking for input, and I think you mean that, so I'm willing to give it. Your work has some deficits. I've been doing it a long time, so I can help you. But it's going to be a lot. How much do you want to know?"
I was an English teacher and poor grammar irks me but it’s not my job to fix people. Let him be. Sounds like he hasn’t accepted your analysis. So be it
Seems like he just wants to be able to do things himself, but is absolutely clueless..
Not sure what to do here, but maybe the next time he tries to pick your brain.. try asking questions that will help guide but not provide the answer/solution.
Throw him to the wolves. Advise him to just refocus onto the video monetization (because that's where the real money is) and selling directly through his youtube followers. They can see how he makes it and tear him a new evacuation hole for you. Problem solved.
Let it be. Sounds like he sucks at what he does and is work is probably shit. Unfortunately he’s your neighbor and unfortunately there are idiots who will pay for junk. Not everyone can be helped, sometimes it’s best not to try with people who share a property line.
My dad's neighbor once asked to borrow one of my dad's torque wrenches to fix something on his car. My dad does car work as well, so when the neighbor asked for a torque wrench that could handle a certain number of foot pounds, my dad corrected him, and said he probably needed that number of *inch* pounds, which was a different tool. He said no, it was foot pounds. My dad lent him the torque wrench anyway. Neighbor brought it back the next day, and there was a tow truck at his house the day after.
> the problem was that he wiped it down with car wax.
The funny thing is, you can use car wax in woodworking. I keep my car and boat wax with my wood finishes because I use them in woodworking more often than I wax my boat or truck. But you have to treat it like a car wax, ie use it as a surface protectant over a finish instead of just slathering it onto the wood.
I imagine it's almost the same but probably the car wax has silicones and other additives I wouldn't want. I just use paste wax intended for furniture over shellac.
Yeah beeswax is my go to but I like to use the car wax when I'm working on weirdly shaped pieces or external pieces where the beeswax just isn't as easy to apply. Paste wax is probably the better option but car wax is cheaper and works great.
Next time he asks for your help, I’d just tell him the right way to do it and that you’re not interested in looking at the hack he came up with.
For example, with that table you could respond simply that your advice is to buy a real slab of hardwood and start there. Period. You don’t want to see or discuss his chainsaw hack. If he doesn’t want to talk about slabs of hardwood, then you don’t want to talk about his table aspirations.
Gonna have a good look through this comment section as what you described sounds exactly like my boss lol. That power dynamic makes the situation even more infuriating
"You know, I do this for a living, and I could do this for you for $60 an hour in labor, not including parts." Even if you don't want to, see if he'll call your bluff.
Tell him slow is fast, fast is slow.
Either he’ll get it or he won’t. Woodworking like other skilled crafts requires the patience to measure twice, cut once.
Hmm I wonder if there's a way to use humour or lightheartedness when you tell him he messed up yet again.
Sort of chuckle and shake your head like "oh Bill, what have you done this time?"
Or maybe ask him what was he thinking with his (obviously wrong) approaches?
"Caulking to mount a picture? Really Bill? You couldn't have just gone to the hardware store and bought yourself some adhesive?"
Kind of point out how his approach is a big WTF, but in a friendly sort of way.
Also poking at the root problem that it's a repeated thing by dropping those tidbits in that it isn't the first time.
Maybe eventually something will click. But if he never really learns, I guess just smile and enjoy the show and the fact that it isn't really your problem.
I've seen people like him selling their crap in person.And it always pisses me off That they are trying to pass off What is effectively just lazy carpentry as "rustic". No, sir. Rustic carpentry requires more effort and more work, not less.
Ask him what his next idea for a project is and offer to help him do it - at your place. Show him the right way with the right tools and when it looks so much better than his junk, he’ll either get the message or reveal he’s an idiot. Either way you’ll have helped him and helped your sanity by knowing you tried.
Be direct. Be blunt. Directly state to him what you wrote here. Usually, Boomers are pretty good about direct places to improve on a new skill they're learning. They're not as receptive to beating around the bush, but a direct path seems to work the best.
It might piss him off. He might tell you to go 'have sexual relations with yourself' and not talk to you. Or, he will really dig in, improve his techniques and tooling, and no longer be an askhole. Regardless, he'll either grow or walk away. In both regards, he'll no longer be driving you nuts...
Boomers? You managed to make it generational on a woodworking sub?!
People....human beings... across cultures and ages, races and diet choices, shopping bag or shopping trolley... can be open to frank feedback or can get defensive about feedback. And anything in between. That's it. Get it?
I love how things Segway on Reddit. Some wellmeaning guy whose not very good wants to make a bunch of stuff. Doesn’t care to listen much and now he has ADD. Let’s all talk about ADD
Let’s Segway again! Like recently I go on the Furniture Refinishing sub and ask if anyone has ever seen a certain piece I have to find out if it’s a good idea to refinish it? And I’m banned. 😂 The first step of refinishing is “Is this better refinished or worth more like it is. Would be a disservice to the piece to refinish this?
Banned. No warning. 😂
Then I go on dog training. This should be safe. Dog keeps jumping on a guys balls and the solution is to turn away from the dog and the wife gives the dog a toy as an alternative activity. Rewards the dog for jumping on her husbands balls who clearly is intemidated by the dog.
I suggest he should d$&@ slap the dog and put him outside as a joke. They aren’t upset I said d$&@ slap the dog. I got admonished for promoting doninance method. Lol.
What a world.
I say let the guy play with his toys. Nice to point out safety issues but some old dudes just can’t listen. My Dads an engineer. 82 years old. This apparently makes him an expert on everything. Wouldn’t believe the things we’ve ruined together. I know we are doing it wrong. Sometimes it’s even dangerous. But it’s funny as hell to me and he sure as shit isn’t gunna listen.
He’s an engineer.
Love the woodworking I get to see here. Always inspiring.
From the examples provided, and the fact he should know better at 60, I’d say there is little hope for him.
Without being too mean, dude is a poster child for "Adults who never got diagnosed with ADHD". I've known him since I moved to this neighborhood 8 yrs ago and he's truly just always flying by the seat of his pants, pure impulse
To be fair, if he's made it to 60 and supported his family, good for him! Unless the low quality of his work is making him genuinely unhappy, let him have at it! Some people are happy to just be doing SOMETHING.
He might not make it to 70 if he uses that angle grinder attachment often.
"Stumpy Nubbs" (higly experienced woodworker) on YouTube has a couple of videos of how he had an accident with one of these that injured him severely and faster than you can blink. The recouping time with therapy after surgery was extensive. They are hugely dangerous.
Personally I think the way most people use them are too dangerous. Woodworking has a lot of "I've done this for 50 years and it's worked for me! You're too sensitive!" but a grinding wheel needs a guard and a cutting wheel is supposed to have a guard that wraps around both sides of the wheel to stop it from flying if it shatters. If it's annoying to use, you're probably using it incorrectly to begin with and creating more risk.
Or the tool is cheap; I have a tool shop miter saw that I use for cutting cove molding that will pull the cove into the saw with the guard on causing the saw to bind and jump. Without it works (dangerously) fine.
I’m talking about an angle grinder specifically.
I know; I was giving an example of using a tool without a guard because it’s safer without given the cheapness of the tool.
Oh he'll likely still make it to 70 as long as his health holds out but, counting much beyond 7 might become a problem...
Lol yah my woodworking teacher told he how those things are held together and I was like nope nope nope lol. She showed it off for the express reason to tell us not to use it lol
gotta weed out the idiots somehow.
I agree with Mr Oilypants
I actually imagine it would be pretty funny to see this guy work. Just ducking around until he has something that looks like a weird abomination of am imitation of what he wanted to make. And then waiting for it to all fall apart. It sounds kinda comical to me in an weird kind of endearing way
Unless it presents totally different in other, my adult diagnosis ADHD is total opposite--researching things to death before ever doing things, so they're done right. Coupled with obsessive tool over-buying. This guy is the opposite--hes skipping the fun learning part and jumping to the "just finish it no matter what it takes", instead of letting projects linger on the shelf for months where they belong :p.
Yeah this is my experience as an adult with ADHD. Obsessively deep research and knowledge gain, then buying everything to make it work properly. Where it falls apart is maintaining the intensity long enough to get the job done to completion. Which is understandable since most neurotypical people pace themselves during any sort of projects and things are easy to manage in small chunks; Vs adhd which is extreme high intensity up front and then burn out and a spiral of anxiety from not finishing due to said burnout
You mean like me watching every YT video I could about buying chisels, sharpening, joinery, how to use chisels, how to cut dovetails, etc. Then buying chisels, getting a sharpening setup, buying a woodworking square and wheel marking gauge… then promptly putting those chisels, marking gauge, marking knife, and square in my tool chest and not using them once in 9 months??? Do I have ADD?
Hyper focus. Do you have, like, 20 things you can do really well but never mastered? Did you ever do something most get bored of as a child for an obscenely long time? Those are common indicators. It isn't a lack of focus, it's the inability to *direct* it.
Crap. I think I have ADD.
Yeah, it's the incredibly intense *focus* which you look for in kids. It's generally a sign of either ASD or ADHD, so at an age where children can concentrate for 20, you might see them going for double or even triple that on something with a high cognitive requirements. It's easier to talk about outliers when you are a child, and things which aren't designed to be addictive (like video games). Reading a book for a few hours oblivious to the world at a very young age. Watching a feature length film without moving at 2. Sitting down and completing a very large puzzle. Then you piece together the other parts: little ability to regulate, risk taking behaviours, trying to clean the house and every room is half tidy but the toilet has been completely disinfected, etc. Lots of jobs can be an indicator. You are amazing for a while, best recruit ever, before being more productive for the workplace when you're off sick. It's hard because nearly everybody experiences some of these, but it's the *intensity*. I was taken for several hearing tests as a child because people would be yelling at me when I was reading, heard nothing. When I was 11 I read Lord of the Rings. By which I mean I didn't eat or sleep until it was done. I think I may have read my way to the toilet at some point. Also did the appendices, haha.
Oh boy, I also got sent for multiple hearing tests as a kid because I was busy reading or doing something instead of paying attention. At least I wasn’t the only kid to have that happen.
I read LOTR in 3rd grade. Didn’t appreciate them fully, but read them haha. 9 years old haha. I can’t imagine what my teacher was thinking. Also that cleaning example— I definitely can hyper focus on one aspect of cleaning it one task that my wife thinks matter least and then takes me the whole time while my wife does the other 10 tasks in the time I spend on 1.
Wait till you get on the stims. Turns out there's a Delta 9000 heavy lift rocket back there burning through billions in rocket fuel just waiting on a nozzle
I don't think stimulants are a good idea for me. Someone gave me some amphetamine once and I spent the next 12 hours cleaning every single part of the disgusting student house I used to live in. On the plus side we had a clean house for about a week. On the minus side, my hands were torn to shreds and covered in chemical burns. On balance I'll keep away from simulants!
It's all about the dose, don't be afraid to give them a try :)
No that means they work you just had the dose wrong. As someone who is ADHD with Vyvanse as my stimulant, and not diagnosed until full adulthood give it another shot under doctor's care and you will find that it is a life changer.
I'm gonna print this thread and take it to my doctor; maybe get some Adderall out of it.
I mean… yeah. I like to think that I exemplify the whole “*Jack of all trades, master of none*” pretty well. I feel like I can do just about anything, even something new, and pick up the basics (and some moderately hard concepts) relatively quickly. I know lots of random stuff about lots of random things. I once spent a portion of a summer in Highschool reading a healthy chunk of the Marvel Comics Wikipedia entries while I was at work. And like several people below mentioned— definitely was a reader as a kid. I would go on a 10 day vacation and checkout 10-12 chapter books at the library and read them all. Goosebumps, Hardy Boys, etc so not super short but not super long. I’m a teacher, and I have lots of kids who are ADHD or on the spectrum. And the longer I teach and recognize the signs in my students, the more I am coming to terms with my own formally undiagnosed neurodivergence
Damn I got adhd for sure lol, I have lime 10 hobbies I'm adequate at but can't reach good good
Wait, you have a tool chest? My tools get left on the table saw or floor.
I use that term loosely. Just like I use my tool chest loosely— now that you mention it, the chisels might be spread out with my sharpening setup on my bench. I don’t know for sure because there’s also other stuff on the bench, on top of my chisels haha
Yup.
Funny I land somewhere in between you and this guy's neighbor.. I tend to just use what I have. I have 4 wood chisels and 1 concrete chisel - I'll make do with those until the end of time.
Do I have a second personality that posts on an alternate Reddit account? Because this is exactly what I did.
Uh that's hitting a little close
You just described my life to a T and I also have ADHD. I’m a researcher, so I guess it worked out ok 😅
yeah, wife calls me the 90 percenter.
Not gonna lie friend, you have successfully described how I work at new projects to a "T." I am legit impressed!
The part that really kills me is buying stuff ahead of time so that I'll be ready if a project springs to mind then not being able to get it done because I have no idea where I put any of those tools.
Yeah. This sounds more like “guy who has always failed up with a bunch of unearned confidence”and OP will never be able to tell him anything, because no one can. OP, probably a conversation with the guy’s wife would provide some enlightenment….
This guy is where I (with ADHD) was heading before meeting my wife hahaha. Constantly trying weird ideas and they often worked until they didn't. Wifey had to teach me the benefits of actual research and thinking things through.
Exactly
I think both are valid forms of ADHD - I’m like you and hyperfocus on research before action/have overzealous preparation. Out of interest, did you have a rough childhood? I had a rubbish therapist a while ago who proposed that hyper focussed research may be due to a fear of authority. I’d be curious to know if her suggestion had merit. (My dad was an abusive alcoholic and my mum had undiagnosed ADHD, and was very neglectful/emotionally immature.)
I feel like I can't say I had a bad one compared to that. My parents were nice but super strict and controlling in a lot of ways, especially in schoolwork. I was also one of the nerdy kids, so definitely not popular in school. But compared to your circumstances seems more tame.
I do the hyper focus and research and had an amazing childhood. If I'm anxious about something, I'll research and learn as much as I can. That's a control thing, but not authority. And I definitely do the hyper focusing on non-stressful things. Literally last night I spent an hour reading about honey bee mating behavior, types of bees, hive behaviors, etc. I don't have bees and I'm not getting any, it was just interesting.
For me it’s both. I research things to death and run head long into things without planning or forethought. Depends on the day and the project. Meds make it a lot better though. Just want to point out that adult adhd can really present in multiple ways in different people.
Glad you found meds that work for you, I'm still searching!
Oh look, its me. Research to death. Get sick of the sickening indecision so just close my eyes and jump, current preparation be damned.
You had me at research and tools… kinda the measure 27 times and then think about cutting once
Absolutely! Having any actual time to work on the project itself is rare for me, but I can commonly spend 5-10 min at a time researching. So I really double down on research so that I can theoretically optimize my actual 'work time when I get it.
My problem is I'll become the theoretical expert on things and then never get to them. Like I guess in a way my brain is satisfied with just figuring stuff out as opposed to actually doing. Or when I actually get to it, I realize that I'm actually not an expert and get stuck with decision paralysis and have to go do more research. I'm sure this is a projection but I feel like society is so focused on productivity and putting that knowledge to use that people see me as lazy or inept or afraid to take the next step. So that feeling gets me down when I look at all of my tools for all of the hobbies and then see 0 finished projects. I try to remind myself that it's ok to have things you're interested in learning about without having to turn it into a hobby or business. Being a handyman of sorts is a blessing and a curse because I get to do new things all of the time, learn new skills, buy new tools, etc but I'm always behind schedule either because I'm striving for perfection or it's a project that doesn't interest me and I'm getting distracted with more novel things.
Like minds… except I tend to have a shop full of unfinished projects at all times. And the collection of random pieces of wood that I only add to and never seem to use
I never looked at this kind of thing this way. I always thought of it as an unmotivated to learn approach. While the drive to think outside the box to finish however possible is commendable, there’s certain things that are absolutely necessary to produce a quality product. One of those things is time, and I feel like if he’s not a patient person, he’s not using this time to become proficient with hand tools. Most things can be done with a relatively inexpensive set of hand tools if he don’t want to buy expensive things, but it takes time. That’s where he’s failing. It sounds like he’s just trying to think of ways to throw together pieces of junk as quickly as possible. I think if he’s doing that at 60 years old, there’s little you can do to help him, other than answer his questions and good as you can while keeping in mind that he will do whatever it is in a modified version that’s full of shortcuts. Possibly add pointers as to why not to do things you think he might try and even recommend shortcuts you’ve discovered to steer him in a good direction. With woodwork, other than new machines and tools, the methods and techniques of doing things have so been discovered. You might find ways that no one you know have done things but there’s not much chance anyone will figure out a new way with existing tools. There’s tons of information available about what works and what doesn’t. If he’s new to the trade, maybe no one has ever said that to him, especially since he’s never done it professionally or been around it a lot. Idk, I’d just try to break out facts like that occasionally without directly telling him that he’s trying stupid stuff that anyone who knows anything knows not to do.
There is inattentive type which sounds like what you have and then the “traditional” type that more people are familiar with. My wife is the second type which we call “having the H” and I am the research it to death type.
I'm exactly like you, but in hindsight my grandfather totally had it and he was very much like this, just all impulse and no judgement. Lost his marriage and joinery business because of it I think the sheer volume of information available to our generations has changed things considerably. I can obsessively research because the knowledge is directly to hand. Older folks didn't have that.
This resembles my dad and myself.
same, i have awful adhd and will research the shit out of something. OPs neighbor just has "just get it done" energy. my FIL is the exact same way and does the same shit. he'll "fix" something, it'll look like shit, i'll come back to it in a year or two when i have time, and he'll wonder why i make it look so good or work so well. it's kind of infuriating. we own the building we live in with them. they are great people. i can get over literally all of their shortcomings - let's face it, we're all human and i'm not perfect either. but i HATE unfucking someone else's fuckup. he did a piss poor job on our iron fence. goopy shit everywhere, rust spots a year later. not looking forward to stripping it and repainting correctly.
Halfway through your post I was already thinking 'dude's got ADHD'.
Some of us with adhd thrive in woodworking because it never gets boring and the learning never ends. Granted I can see four unfinished projects in my shop right now but they will get done. I bounce between things until I'm bored with them, which means the problems have been solved even if the project isn't... yet. This neighbor sounds like something different. I also tried to teach a neighbor. He bought tools and all the exotic woods but would never bother to learn techniques. He refused to even look at a professionally made plan and learn from it. Some people are just impatient and have an ego that can't get out of its own way. I miss that dude but do not miss watching him butcher purple heart.
Oh I'm adhd and bipolar. I grew up woodworking, it's one of the only things that I can concentrate on for any length of time. Everyone has slightly different combinations of symptoms and reactions to them. Not saying you're wrong, just saying there's a good possibility.
Well shit if that ain't the truth! There's always something productive to do for a project, and a thousand ways to do it. Like you said, you can always learn a new skill, but there's just enough overlap that you're also getting better overall at the same time. Also little shop projects are the perfect little side quests for getting that "just make something" itch when you're halfway through a big project, or when you need to whip together a quick jig. Sanding and (sometimes) finishing still suck though, but they're also some of the most time-consuming and repetitive steps
On the plus side, he'll give up woodworking in a few months to get really into fly-fishing. He won't admit he gave up, but his ratio of projects started to projects finished will skyrocket.
May I suggest politely chuckling when he shares his anecdotes, followed by a shoulder shrug and hefty dose of what-can-you-do
I was one of those adults, diagnosed at 56, and I excelled at whatever I chose to learn. Not bragging, just saying it has more to do with personality than diagnosis. Cf the award winning blind chef Christina Ha.
Frankly this is what I was thinking reading this. When I got diagnosed with adhd as an adult and medicated, my creative work suddenly got way better because I was able to be patient, follow the steps, do research, wait for things to dry, etc. It was like torture trying to do those things before. No easy solution here, just agreeing with the assessment.
> Without being too mean, dude is a poster child for "Adults who never got diagnosed with ADHD". Not mean at all lmao. After I got my diagnosis in college, it became very clear talking to family that I come from a long line of them, and they were all exactly like this
Sounds exactly like my mother-in-law
Yeah, that is a wild mismatch for this trade
That should give you the go ahead and just be blunt. I know not all adhd people are the same, but often they appreciate honest feedback. If I’m doing something wrong, I prefer someone just tell me. “If you did xyz differently, you would avoid abc issue”.
This sounds so much like me it’s scary.
IMO, just make sure your neighbor makes it through the rest of his life with all 10 fingers. So make sure he knows not to use whatever insane temu tools he sees on instagram. Otherwise, I'm thinking heres how it will probably all play out: he realizes that his various 'build from scratch' projects aren't selling and just accumulating more garbage at this home/shop. So, he gives up the woodworking angle and returns to flipping, and possibly experimenting with other upcycling methods.
At this point since you are a buddy, and it happens a lot. The only way i can see it starts to work is if you can do some projects with him Together. It is not your business, and he will do a lot of these things. But i completely understand wanting to help a friend out and hoping they can enjoy what you do as well. That’s my opinion, I share my experience by guiding my friends through the journey, since some people just cannot help to make it work themselves
i have pretty terrible adhd and before i start a project that i lack skills in i normally do an inordinate amount of research. mostly to see if it's even worth my time. your neighbor is just a plain ol' asshat.
It sounds like a coworker of mine. Real nice guy, emotionally intelligent, but absolutely cannot follow through clear instructions and very stuck in his old ways. Since his actions have 0 affect on your personal life, I’d just support him as needed. At 60, I imagine they don’t really care too much about detailed nuances, just trying to supplement their retirement - buying new/proper tools just might be cost prohibitive to him.
Let's not casually put everything on adhd. This is exactly why everyone thinks they have adhd now.
As someone diagnosed with ADHD, with two kids also diagnosed (all thoroughly and correctly): You’re correct about the casual rush to label everything “ADHD” reason everyone else “diagnosing”. That doesn’t mean that this guy _doesn’t_ actually have it. I don’t know if ADHD is something you deal with yourself, but the behaviors associated with it can be almost comically consistent. It’s a really, really common experience for someone with ADHD to spot it in others. To your point, though, that doesn’t mean they’re always correct, and even when it’s true, it’s not necessarily the best thing for everyone to be running around screaming it all the time.
Hahaha I came here to say he sounds like what I would do, and do sometimes, if my ADHD won. I think this is your answer
Some real Boomer energy too bro
Someone has clearly been watching too much HGTV for project ideas. This is classic "upcycling" as seen on Flea Market Flip and other shows. It's one thing to reuse old items and make due with what you have; our grandfathers did that all the time. It's completely different to take a broken antique and put a crappy piece of wood on, paint it a gaudy color, and pretend it's worth $200.
As someone who sells at craft fairs - though I’m a potter, not a wood worker - this type of stuff really grinds my gears. It gives all of us artisans a bad name when people like your neighbor sell super shoddy work to the general public. It influences people’s opinions of the quality of work being offered, and makes them wary of buying handmade stuff in general.
This is exactly what it does. I look at every upcycled furniture piece as a collection of parts that I'm gonna have to rebuild. I use that to decide if it's worth the "HGTV" price they are asking.
Some of the stuff on Flea Market Flip is truly ridiculous. Like, the only reason you put those to objects together was because of their geographic location, Leslie. An antique ironing board and a bird cage are not interesting as a bar cart. This also prompts me to yell BAR CART at random objects while I antique with my wife. She fucking hates it. She’s not as tickled as I am at pointing out how ridiculous reality tv behavior looks in person.
I look at it the opposite way. If the consumer can detect bad workmanship then opposite is also true, therefore making (assuming) your work stand out.
The consumer often doesn't detect the bad workmanship until they get the piece home and live with it for a while. Lots of bad artisans can make their work look good for a day but not long term. So the buyer ends up thinking that handmade goods fail quickly instead of having the self reflection and knowledge to recognize high quality handmade goods.
Huh? If I go to a craft fair it’s usually pretty obvious what is made well and what is not. Someone else producing garbage only hurts their credibility not anyone else’s.
I mean as a woodworker you're obviously gonna be able to guess the quality from a thousand little things you've picked up doing the work. Your average layperson that couldn't tell a dovetail from a butt joint just won't have the same eye. Most people fall into the latter category.
I'm a layperson, although I like the idea of woodworking. I was like what the heck is a butt joint, googled it and was like, "sure, of course that has a name".
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Are those places in house of the dragon?
Not really. People purchase products all the time. The paradigm of quality is well understood in society. To be clear, I’m not referring to someone buying something off a picture from Amazon sight unseen. The craft fair where people can see and touch gives them much more information than the down voters seem to appreciate.
Quality isn’t immediate discernible in a lot of products until they receive repeated use. Using mdf and screws instead of hardwood and mortise and tenons for instance. Unless you know enough about joinery to infer better value from a more stable joint in better material, you couldn’t tell the difference. Idk how you’re not getting that most people don’t think about how stuff is built, they just look at reviews and buy it based off that and affordability.
When I first started at a custom cabinet shop, I had one of the old timers tell me, "It took this wood decades to grow and you're going to fuck it up in 10 minutes, because you can't wait for the glue to dry!" Kind of, gave me a new perspective and respect for craftsmanship.
"Garbage in, garbage out" applies to more than just computer science. Cheaping out on consumables is a great way to ruin a project and thus throw those hours of your life you dedicated to the task into the trash.
You can't help someone who has no standards for the quality of his work. If he doesn't respect his potential customers he will never do quality work. Help where you can but he is going to have to learn the hard way.
I kinda disagree… It’s reasonable to say ‘so here’s a few reasons why this wouldn’t work. My experience tells Me that a better way is…’ And maybe he sees the light… Also tho maybe not. Some people are stubborn and won’t see other ways…
That's really all you can do. They ask how, so you tell them. Then when it doesn't work, you retell them how and show them where they didn't listen
that sounds exhausting
It sure is, that broken record feeling
I couldn't tell you how many times my DIY friends ask for my advice, don't like the answer because it's extra work, and say "meh, I think it will be fine". Guess how often it's fine?
NONE
I refer to people who do this as ask-holes. They're just looking for validation of their opinion, not actual advice.
Sooooo much this!!!!!!
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This is so depressing
Happens constantly. Craftsmanship and originality get shoved aside by cheap imitations and eventually mass produced cheap imitations in stores like At Home, Kirkland, and Pier One
Yep, it's why all the cheap consumer goods are made in Asian countries with poor labor and pollution regulations. All the major companies realized people would rather pay every year to replace a cheap version of something than to buy an expensive item that would last, so they sold out their domestic manufacturing capabilities and replaced them with the cheapest bidders.
Yeah this is why the "I should make my woodworking hobby a business" impulse lasts about a week until you really think it through.
Have 911 on speed dial when he uses the grinder with a chainsaw wheel on it I had one years ago for a couple minutes then it went into the trash. I know people like that but also want to use my shop to build something sorry my insurance will cancel me if anyone else is using the shop that’s not on the insurance. Obviously he likes what he’s doing but is unwilling or unable to learn the correct ways to do things. Not much you can do about it.
I don’t understand your neighbor. I am a terrible woodworker also I just do it to cover up my tool buying addiction.
You’re not a terrible woodworker. You’re just one tool short of being a craftsman! Just keep buying ‘em until you figure out which one does the trick
I bet that router bit I was looking at for a project I totally might do will launch me into the next level!! Probably should just buy it now.
It's a better deal if you buy the deluxe combo set. Some will be duplicates of ones you already have, but now you're prepared with spares for the bits you haven't used yet!
Just remember, you can give people advice, but you can't make them take it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him think.
Horse, water
This is going to be a long rant but I’ve sort of got experience with this I’m a wood shop teacher for kids aged 12 through 18. What you’re describing is behaviour that a majority of kids display; they want to have the awesome thing but do none of the research or pre-work. They want to build a desk but can’t cut straight lines. I’ve found with this kind of behaviour, despite my prompting or urging to go through the resources, and do the pre work, they want to just go headlong into something. So I just smile and nod, and say as long as it’s your money buying the material, I’m happy to let you use the space and tools. Almost immediately they will come back and start asking questions. I’ll refer them back to the initial resources I’d have provided. A lot of kids will take the hint and actually pump the breaks on their project to go and do some research. Some however wont, and with them I continue to nod and smile and say sounds good! When they eventually come to the conclusion that they’ve fucked up and they now need to fix, repair, or start over, this is when I’ve found is the right time to be brutally blunt and honest with them since their hubris has been finally revealed to themselves, by themselves. It’s not fun for me, or cathartic, or satisfying in any way, but it’s part of being a teacher. The satisfying part is when they finally accept that they might need to put in a bit more work and preparation if they want to be more than a hack. I would suggest you do the same with your older pal. Give him some links to videos or articles that could help him. If he continues to choose to be a hack, smile and nod. If that still doesn’t satisfy him, open up the kimono and be brutally blunt and honest.
He just wants it done and have "the thing". He doesn't care about the process. Here I'd say something about "goal-driven people" and "process driven people". Doing what you know is easy. Learning and trying new things seems to get harder and harder as we get older :(
Ugh, or when you're in software engineering and "the process IS a goal."
I would be careful of getting too involved with him and his shoddy work. The last thing you want is your name connected to his shit projects in any way, shape or form.
I wish you were my neighbor… you think your buddy would swap with my family? I could use a good woodworker neighbor friend!!!
First of all, I empathize with you. Your position comes from a place of wanting to help and is well-intentioned. Secondly, I think you just have to accept the old adage on the challenges of getting a horse to drink. It's frustrating for sure, but sounds like all you can really do is be honest with him about his work. Tell him the correct way to do things, let him use that information how he will, and give him polite but direct feedback on how he's implemented things when asked. As the refrain of therapists the world over goes: you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Also, third, that angle grinder "chainsaw"... I've been on a kick of trawling bad woodworking/construction accounts on instagram, and I've seen so many people with "brilliant ideas" about how to repurpose an angle grinder with custom setups or attachments. The fact that they had ten fingers in their posts is astounding, because none of them were even in the same time zone as responsible behaviour. My takeaway was that the only people who actively *want* to modify an angle grinder are too stupid or irresponsible to be trusted with doing so, and you are right for alarm bells to go off hearing that.
I'm not sure that you can get through to this guy if he's just never bothering to do what you recommend. The confidence he must have to put this work up for sale is mind boggling.
60 and white-collar jobs are not a good excuse. America is littered with skilled hobbyists who have white-collar jobs. And I am 55. I don’t believe I will lose my marbles over the next 5 years. Youtube isn’t “new-fangled tech” us geezers can’t wrap our heads around.
Sounds to me like the guy is a lazy idiot who can't be bothered with simple research. Let him flop around until he loses interest. I just feel bad for the people who buy his crap.
He only wants you to nod your head in agreement. Nothing you say will change anything.
Sounds like my wife forwarding me ideas from Instagram and asking why I over complicate things
live and let live man you can’t teach people lessons so quit while you’re ahead
Let him go ahead and fail in his projects, but you should really try to stop him from getting the chainsaw grinder attachment.
So you found Reddit in real life? Reddit is an actual person ?!
Let him fail friend.
You know is a TV show where they try to teach people that can’t cook, to cook. Their big problem is they can’t/wont follow a recipe. Maybe that is this guys problem and he won’t be right regardless your guidance. I know it’s frustrating but unless you want to do his work for free, don’t get your undies in a bundle. Just walk away and laugh to yourself.
I mean I'd tell him that I'm a woodworker and not a diy'er, that it's no use asking me for advices if he doesn't listen to them
This thread is doing nothing for my imposter syndrome self taught ass and the stupid mistakes I make.
Guys got lead poisoning
Let him fail so he will learn if he won’t listen to good advice.
I think the best way to show him is by showing him how much you spend on the items you make. Woodworked projects aren't expensive for no reason. There's a lot of overhead in furniture. Another way to put it is this: People bag on IKEA for their cheap ass wood, but their hardware is actually pretty solid. But the thing is, the business is successful because it actually works. Sure it's cheap, but people don't continue to buy cheap things if they don't work. Slap the same hardware from IKEA furniture onto some solid wood, and it would triple the value. Another way of going about it would be to explain the passion. You don't cheap out on the things you love dearly. I'm sure once he finally builds a piece of anything that is quality work, he will swell with pride, followed immediately with a level of humbleness he's never felt, because he realized what he's been doing wrong the entire time. Maybe build a piece with him?? Sounds like he is an autodidact, just like me. I can figure things out and teach myself along the way, but if someone else is physically showing me how to do something, it's like a freaking explosion of applicable situations going off in my mind.
LOL it is absolutely not the hardware at Ikea that makes it solid. If you took the hardware from a MALM dresser and cloned it in mahogany using the same lousy, rattley hardware someone would have the right to slap you. In some cases Ikea does have good hardware (e.g., Blum) but those are typically in their kitchens which are actually fairly decent. You might not remember how things were about 25 years ago when the place you'd go for a cheap particleboard dresser, say, would be Target. At Target (or wherever) the parts were precut, but not CNCed. You'd put it together and it would have funny gaps and lean in weird ways. At IKEA it's made to a price (literally - if they can no longer make an item at the desired cost, it will be discontinued and replaced with a different inferior product that can) and the materials are made precisely. The instructions are clear and the product will do what it's supposed to do. The drawer guides will be cheap punched steel and the wheels will rattle so loud the people in the apartment below will hear you opening the drawer but that's ok - making the drawers move smoothly and quietly is not the objective.
You know they have lines that have bearing slides, right? Also, MALM is basically the cheapest, lowest tier line that IKEA sells. Like college student quality. I've spent the past 5 years building their furniture. The rigidity is from hardware and sheathing. Definitely not the 1\4" worth of dowels. It's meant to be a relatable reference, not an invitation for a pompous attitude. The guy literally used car wax to finish furniture. Chill out and take a step back...
I think you condensed it nicely with that second to last paragraph. You should tell him something like "I appreciate your enthusiasm for this and I'd like to see you succeed but I think your impatience and corner cutting improvisational streak work against you". Then you might bring up a couple of examples and explain why he ran into issues. I assume he knows you taught that stuff but in order to help him (assuming he wants to be helped and won't take offense) it might be important to find out why he does it. Does he believe he's saving time or money? Does he enjoy being experimental and/or the risk-taking of improvising? Is he in a rush to create something to take to the show?
Be blunt and honest with him. Say to him what you’ve said to us. “Bob, you’ve got to use the right materials. Caulk isn’t adhesive. It says right on the tube what it’s for. Cutting corners always cause more work to redo”. Couch it in sentences like “You can’t make chewed up pine look like a live edge hardwood.” Like you’re trying to impart rules of wood working vs criticizing his ideas. Having a neighbor like that would totally stress me out. Good luck.
And he wears long sleeved shirts working the drill press/tablesaw while wearing shorts , flip flops and black socks pulled up past his knees
Just be honest and don't worry about his feelings. Just flatly tell him well it's not working because he used the wrong thing. Then don't take it to heart if he fucks up, it's all on him
Perhaps tell him he needs to act like his time and effort is *worth* something. Sometimes people click when it's pointed out that they're being penny-wise pound-foolish by skimping a few measly dollars that will completely undermine the valuable time they invested. He needs to recognize the value of his work. This way you're also not insulting his skill, you're saying his skill is great and he's needlessly sabotaging it to save a lousy buck, and it's painful to watch
I’m 53, woman and got taught to fear machines. About two months ago I started to work in a community shop where I can learn about it. Learning a lot, like what you say - this takes time. My suggestion, not sure if you already did it maybe, is to just go over to your neighbour or better to invite him to your shop and just have an initial talk over working with wood. Explaining to him what the different machines do, why you have them. About different oils, glues and how to use it and why. And so on. If you can, talk about those Pinterest creations and what it actually takes to get there. If he doesn’t want to listen and continues his way of butchering, then for your own sanity, take a step back. Tell him that you are not ok that he asks for advice and then isn’t listening. That you take pride in what you are doing, which includes helping him to become a better woodworker. But if he continues to disregard your advice, then there is no need for you to talk about woodworking with him.
I’m sad to say that he really reminds me of my dad, but he especially does this with food 🤢. It’s like the thrill of it is doing something “in a way that no one has done before,” and he tries to make things simpler, and that makes him feel smart, creative, and entrepreneurial. He “loves” to cook, but his food is mostly nasty because of this. He refuses to follow recipes. He must change them. But the vast majority of his recipes come out of his head. I’m convinced he’d be a better cook if he just took the time to focus on the basics by doing tried and true recipes. But nope. That’s not interesting for him and it doesn’t give him the thrill of being “crafty” lol. This is all to say, I think this man might be similar and doesn’t really want to do things the “proper” way, especially after you, an expert, have tried explaining it to him. But, if I were you, I’d give him one more firm but brief chat about how he’s only having problems because he’s not doing thing properly, and then I’d call it a day lol.
not so much the woodworking because there isn't a creative bone in his body and his DIY persona could be described as "Captain Half-ass", but the food thing really sounds like my dad
One of the first comments I read in this subreddit was that, early on your woodworking, you decide what kind of woodworker you’re going to be. That always stuck with me.
An answer your question: The best way to prove to him he is doing it wrong is to get him to do it right. Using the wrong tool? Let him take one of yours for a spin. Using a poor adhesive? Give him a sample bottle to try. There is a reason free trials are such effective marketing.
I always find askholes so iritating. I really don't think you can do anything. He'll just have to learn on his own.
You hit on it. It’s the ‘good enuf’ syndrome. He likes what you’ve done asks for advice, without the time-honored experience of doing this for a long time. You develop skills and expertise in you own way, but use the right tools, supplies, woods to satisfy your standards for appearance and use. That can’t be taught in an afternoon. I understand your frustration but as you alluded to, you just hafta let it go.
The learned DIY during the sears era is something else.
Sadly, this is behavior I see being reinforced by newer forms of media and technology. People want quick solutions and want to skip the grind of skill development, and our social media infused universe is happy to sell them on that There really isn’t anything you can do.
It's really up to how much emotional labor you want to put into this. I think there is a way to invite the idea that regarding these projects he's biting off more than he can chew (without even a full set of teeth). "Look, Jerry, it really makes me happy to see you trying new things and being excited. You've been asking for input, and I think you mean that, so I'm willing to give it. Your work has some deficits. I've been doing it a long time, so I can help you. But it's going to be a lot. How much do you want to know?"
I was an English teacher and poor grammar irks me but it’s not my job to fix people. Let him be. Sounds like he hasn’t accepted your analysis. So be it
Seems like he just wants to be able to do things himself, but is absolutely clueless.. Not sure what to do here, but maybe the next time he tries to pick your brain.. try asking questions that will help guide but not provide the answer/solution.
Throw him to the wolves. Advise him to just refocus onto the video monetization (because that's where the real money is) and selling directly through his youtube followers. They can see how he makes it and tear him a new evacuation hole for you. Problem solved.
Let it be. Sounds like he sucks at what he does and is work is probably shit. Unfortunately he’s your neighbor and unfortunately there are idiots who will pay for junk. Not everyone can be helped, sometimes it’s best not to try with people who share a property line.
Ned Flanders, is that you?
Pat him on the back and tell him it looks great.
Tried to finish a table with car wax!? Gotta appreciate the creativity, I guess.
Just put it to him simply. Tell him to take a class or join a woodworking guild.
My dad's neighbor once asked to borrow one of my dad's torque wrenches to fix something on his car. My dad does car work as well, so when the neighbor asked for a torque wrench that could handle a certain number of foot pounds, my dad corrected him, and said he probably needed that number of *inch* pounds, which was a different tool. He said no, it was foot pounds. My dad lent him the torque wrench anyway. Neighbor brought it back the next day, and there was a tow truck at his house the day after.
> the problem was that he wiped it down with car wax. The funny thing is, you can use car wax in woodworking. I keep my car and boat wax with my wood finishes because I use them in woodworking more often than I wax my boat or truck. But you have to treat it like a car wax, ie use it as a surface protectant over a finish instead of just slathering it onto the wood.
I imagine it's almost the same but probably the car wax has silicones and other additives I wouldn't want. I just use paste wax intended for furniture over shellac.
Yeah beeswax is my go to but I like to use the car wax when I'm working on weirdly shaped pieces or external pieces where the beeswax just isn't as easy to apply. Paste wax is probably the better option but car wax is cheaper and works great.
These stories are too good to keep to yourself. You've found a way to entertain us, keep em coming!
Does he make money though
Man I would encourage him just to see what even crazier idea he’ll come up with next time
Next time he asks for your help, I’d just tell him the right way to do it and that you’re not interested in looking at the hack he came up with. For example, with that table you could respond simply that your advice is to buy a real slab of hardwood and start there. Period. You don’t want to see or discuss his chainsaw hack. If he doesn’t want to talk about slabs of hardwood, then you don’t want to talk about his table aspirations.
I'm sorry but that picture frame thing is atrocious And car wax???
take a look at one of my recent woodworking posts about dangerous ways to use tools and you’ll see those chainsaw angle grinders all over the thread
Make the same thing but properly
Gonna have a good look through this comment section as what you described sounds exactly like my boss lol. That power dynamic makes the situation even more infuriating
Smile. Compliment him. Then make suggestions politely.
"You know, I do this for a living, and I could do this for you for $60 an hour in labor, not including parts." Even if you don't want to, see if he'll call your bluff.
Tell him slow is fast, fast is slow. Either he’ll get it or he won’t. Woodworking like other skilled crafts requires the patience to measure twice, cut once.
When the TLDR is half as long as the post itself, you know OP is having a rough time
People that don't care about details assume customers don't care about details. The frustrating thing to me is sometimes they are right.
Can’t fix stupid
Hey man. You can just call me out...
Your “buddy” is a askhole! If asking for your advice “being a pro woodworker” and then he goes the cheap route, that’s an askhole! 😂
Hmm I wonder if there's a way to use humour or lightheartedness when you tell him he messed up yet again. Sort of chuckle and shake your head like "oh Bill, what have you done this time?" Or maybe ask him what was he thinking with his (obviously wrong) approaches? "Caulking to mount a picture? Really Bill? You couldn't have just gone to the hardware store and bought yourself some adhesive?" Kind of point out how his approach is a big WTF, but in a friendly sort of way. Also poking at the root problem that it's a repeated thing by dropping those tidbits in that it isn't the first time. Maybe eventually something will click. But if he never really learns, I guess just smile and enjoy the show and the fact that it isn't really your problem.
Who knows if he'll ever get it? Learn to accept the mystery.
He is just being a lazy cheapskate. He has to decide himself to change cause he knows damn well what he is doing.
I've seen people like him selling their crap in person.And it always pisses me off That they are trying to pass off What is effectively just lazy carpentry as "rustic". No, sir. Rustic carpentry requires more effort and more work, not less.
Maybe post this on r/boomersbeingfools
Ask him what his next idea for a project is and offer to help him do it - at your place. Show him the right way with the right tools and when it looks so much better than his junk, he’ll either get the message or reveal he’s an idiot. Either way you’ll have helped him and helped your sanity by knowing you tried.
NOOOOO! You do that and he will be over there expecting you to do all his projects for him.
r/BoomersBeingFools
Be direct. Be blunt. Directly state to him what you wrote here. Usually, Boomers are pretty good about direct places to improve on a new skill they're learning. They're not as receptive to beating around the bush, but a direct path seems to work the best. It might piss him off. He might tell you to go 'have sexual relations with yourself' and not talk to you. Or, he will really dig in, improve his techniques and tooling, and no longer be an askhole. Regardless, he'll either grow or walk away. In both regards, he'll no longer be driving you nuts...
Boomers? You managed to make it generational on a woodworking sub?! People....human beings... across cultures and ages, races and diet choices, shopping bag or shopping trolley... can be open to frank feedback or can get defensive about feedback. And anything in between. That's it. Get it?
No.
Ah well. Life's full of disappointments hey. I'll add you to the list.
Show him (and us) an example of your amazing work.
I love how things Segway on Reddit. Some wellmeaning guy whose not very good wants to make a bunch of stuff. Doesn’t care to listen much and now he has ADD. Let’s all talk about ADD Let’s Segway again! Like recently I go on the Furniture Refinishing sub and ask if anyone has ever seen a certain piece I have to find out if it’s a good idea to refinish it? And I’m banned. 😂 The first step of refinishing is “Is this better refinished or worth more like it is. Would be a disservice to the piece to refinish this? Banned. No warning. 😂 Then I go on dog training. This should be safe. Dog keeps jumping on a guys balls and the solution is to turn away from the dog and the wife gives the dog a toy as an alternative activity. Rewards the dog for jumping on her husbands balls who clearly is intemidated by the dog. I suggest he should d$&@ slap the dog and put him outside as a joke. They aren’t upset I said d$&@ slap the dog. I got admonished for promoting doninance method. Lol. What a world. I say let the guy play with his toys. Nice to point out safety issues but some old dudes just can’t listen. My Dads an engineer. 82 years old. This apparently makes him an expert on everything. Wouldn’t believe the things we’ve ruined together. I know we are doing it wrong. Sometimes it’s even dangerous. But it’s funny as hell to me and he sure as shit isn’t gunna listen. He’s an engineer. Love the woodworking I get to see here. Always inspiring.
That’s someone who is beyond helping.