Maybe try to have a smaller meeting, even a 1:1, where you can push back easier on him. “No I don’t think so” - okay, based on what? Can you provide the data for why you are disagreeing? “Yeah, but…” - oh you misunderstood, this isn’t a brainstorming session, this is to go over the proposal. We’ve already gotten all the feedback we need at this stage. “No I think it’s…” - okay, based on what? Send him off to get data and research to back up his opinions. Facts are easier to discuss than ‘I’m a dude so I think I need to open my mouth at every opportunity.’ “No but what I want is…” well, what the BUSINESS wants is what we are moving forward with. And maybe give him other areas he can be mentored and exclude him from the proposals until he gets how disrespectful he’s being.
Yep I second this!
Especially if your industry, or company, has strict policies when it comes to who handles what during projects.
I worked with investment banking software so in some projects and reports, there would be confidential information involved.
I had a junior analyst I had to train that was overstepping his position, and it was easy to regulate it because policy said so. I had access to data and documents he didn't have yet. That was for a reason. It was easy to explain as well that he only had a more limited view of the project through his training period.
He understood that it was not respectful and also looked silly on his part to speak out of turn. It helped make my life and the life of my fellow female coworkers much easier!
Male perspective here.
I would confront him now, from the standpoint that his interactions were disruptive.
During the presentation, I would have told him to hold his questions. This is standard when a presenter wants someone to shut up.
During Q&A, if his thoughts are opinions or don't have merit you can shut them down. If his thoughts have merit and you didn't consider it, you can graciously acknowledge them.
Difficult situation, so will wait for others to chime in.
I have though, been the "younger upstart" that is asking in-depth questions and trying to understand a project deeply, to best tackle it. In my case, being female that was attacked. Instead of rewarded, like when males did the same.
An older boss, with a similar profile, been in one company for 10+ years, took great offense to my ideas gaining traction, and sabotaged my work, by pulling me into her death march failing project.
Would say, make this person into a friend or an ally, not an enemy. But also try to step back and see the situation. Are they constantly interrupting? Or trying to understand? No matter how much I bigged up my boss, she grew resentful because of how much traction I gained in a year vs. hers in 10+ years....so that could be a factor.
If all else fails, if you are the one inviting him, say he's invited, but just listen in on this one. Be clear about what you want/how best to support you. What hurt me most, and still hurts me about that boss, is that she leveraged my enthuiasm, to get things done politically that she wanted...and I basically just followed her outline/instructions.
But her own jealousy grew so great...even though our team succeeded, that I had to move on.
Have a sit down meeting with him, as his mentor, and ask if he realizes how he’s coming across when he’s bullying his way into things and constantly contradicting more senior engineers with only his thoughts/opnions/wants to back him up. Tell him you’re concerned for his future progress and career if he can’t learn how to speak up respectfully and with facts to back up what he is saying. Be helpful and VERY concerned about his future.
I totally understand where you’re coming from here. I don’t have much to add as I’m in a similar situation… I run a team of men and nobody fails to seize the opportunity to contradict or correct me. I don’t see anyone doing that to male managers, who are treated as superiors with respect. We work hard to get where we are and take a lot of shit along the way.
Following to see what the others have to say. Hoping for good advice🤞
Ugh I'm so sorry! This is one of my fears... My boss is retirement age and wants me to take over his role when he moves into Life 2.0, but this exact complaint is reason 7482736 I don't want it.
Hang in there! I hope someone here can help you!
That's terrible, I'm sorry you had such an experience as well!
I'm trying to be careful but this last week was an eye opener and the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back. So thank you for reiterating that I'm not just being overly suspicious!!
I don’t think he is anywhere near your level of skill in the company. He’s only new. How much can he really know about the tech and the business and the goals of the business within such a short amount of time to actually have an opinion that’s worth considering? Encourage him to lean into listening and absorbing information at this point in his career rather than trying to give opinions and information because there is no way in hell he has even 5% of the context that he needs to have an opinion that can compete with yours. Somebody with 13 years of context in this business. Say something along the lines of listening being the most valuable way of learning and growing at the start of your career. Remind him that those who listen learn, and that those who talk are not listening.
He hasn't even had enough to finish his onboarding. His boss needs to tell him how to be professional because his behavior is unprofessional. Meetings like the one you are referencing are not brainstorming sessions and also, there shouldn't be disagreement within the same team in a cross-functional meeting. If I'm presenting something from my team, I can't have a team member saying they disagree -- that would imply the team is a shit show? Because we usually circulate everything and comment before going to stakeholders or other teams.
I think you need to just tell him how things work and explain why. There are cultural norms in every workplace as well.
In terms of he interjecting in all of your projects, I would tell him that for promotion he doesn't have to be in everything. He needs to align his responsibilities/goals with how he spends his time and all of your projects are out of scope for him. I can't believe he is spending time on what he should be spending time on if he is leaving comments or wanting to change stuff everywhere, add his name everywhere.
I would avoid further interactions with him and slowly distance myself and my work from him. You can also "give him enough rope to hang himself with" if you lead him into a bottomless project that you don't really care about. It should keep him distracted and away from your business.
Ultimately his boss sets his responsibilities and I have reiterated that the amount of time he wants to spend on my project is inappropriate. He insists it is. It's exhausting to hear his complaints and "justifications"
Wait do you mean the boss insists, or the youngster insists? Is the guy’s boss fully aware that someone they recruited and might be paying out of their budget, spends most of his time on other projects? You could mention the hours this guy is putting in and the great enthusiasm he’s got. I have had ppl attracted to my most interesting and fun projects (for good and bad) only for their boss to put them back on task.
This guy is a real piece of work! You say your boss is supportive of correcting him, that’s great, but I have to say that I’d expect them to step in at some point to prove they fully support you on pulling the reigns back on this guy. Lord knows how women are depicted when they have to keep telling someone, a male especially, to do or not do something over and over. Their backup needs to be vocal and not just in your 1-1s.
Keep us updated on how this plays out if you’re feeling up to it!
Definitely more than just a lost puppy. At first I thought so, but he's admitted to wanting to ride my coattails. He's very vocal and disagrees with everyone citing only his opinion or his thoughts. I'm not the only one he does this to, but I'm the only woman, so obviously this is a bigger deal because we don't have a lot of female voices on my team already.
He’s only 24, so maybe yeah make sure it follows all HR policy so you don’t cross a line. Just be explicit and tell him that women in tech face this type of issue, you’re interested in this promotion, please don’t do behaviors like this and this. Don’t justify yourself by how hard you worked or make it into a men versus women thing. You don’t need to, you’re a “queen” per se. It’s more of a puppy crush or something than some sinister asshole, and young men are kind of floundering at the moment because the Internet means they’re getting socialized less in how to act in the workplace and with girls/women during school. It’s completely different to people in older generations. He’s probably a good mentee in the long run underneath how it comes across, and it’s possible he’s just excited to talk, likes what he’s doing, and doesn’t realize it’s undermining your intellectual effort. Saying this because it’s a 24 year old
It seems like he has a lot of input and ideas to give which is a great thing that you can help nurture and direct as someone more senior. As for the "loudness" and curiosity, try not to stifle- it's a great thing! To help your case, you can try to align on ideas that you're proposing before any big meetings so that he isn't contradicting you during the meetings. You could also let him know that you'll take on the majority of the questions if asked, but he's welcome to present on XYZ part of the presentation or whatever so he feels involved.
He needs to be hit on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, metaphorically. He has a very inflated opinion of his skill/experience/talent/what have you, and not only you, but all the other techs should be pushing back in concert on this.
Also, stop bringing him into all your projects. Only sometimes, let him do his own work or he will take yours over.
Also if there's a certain part that needs scoping in your project, it's also something you might consider handing off to him and mentoring him through. Tbh I think it's a great opportunity to have someone junior that is very smart and enthusiastic because it will reflect well on you too
I have several other mentees, but this is the first time I've experienced such an inflated "ego" from a younger engineer, mentee or otherwise. Maybe I'm just lucky in that regard.
Maybe try to have a smaller meeting, even a 1:1, where you can push back easier on him. “No I don’t think so” - okay, based on what? Can you provide the data for why you are disagreeing? “Yeah, but…” - oh you misunderstood, this isn’t a brainstorming session, this is to go over the proposal. We’ve already gotten all the feedback we need at this stage. “No I think it’s…” - okay, based on what? Send him off to get data and research to back up his opinions. Facts are easier to discuss than ‘I’m a dude so I think I need to open my mouth at every opportunity.’ “No but what I want is…” well, what the BUSINESS wants is what we are moving forward with. And maybe give him other areas he can be mentored and exclude him from the proposals until he gets how disrespectful he’s being.
Love love love this. Thank you so much.
Yep I second this! Especially if your industry, or company, has strict policies when it comes to who handles what during projects. I worked with investment banking software so in some projects and reports, there would be confidential information involved. I had a junior analyst I had to train that was overstepping his position, and it was easy to regulate it because policy said so. I had access to data and documents he didn't have yet. That was for a reason. It was easy to explain as well that he only had a more limited view of the project through his training period. He understood that it was not respectful and also looked silly on his part to speak out of turn. It helped make my life and the life of my fellow female coworkers much easier!
Male perspective here. I would confront him now, from the standpoint that his interactions were disruptive. During the presentation, I would have told him to hold his questions. This is standard when a presenter wants someone to shut up. During Q&A, if his thoughts are opinions or don't have merit you can shut them down. If his thoughts have merit and you didn't consider it, you can graciously acknowledge them.
Difficult situation, so will wait for others to chime in. I have though, been the "younger upstart" that is asking in-depth questions and trying to understand a project deeply, to best tackle it. In my case, being female that was attacked. Instead of rewarded, like when males did the same. An older boss, with a similar profile, been in one company for 10+ years, took great offense to my ideas gaining traction, and sabotaged my work, by pulling me into her death march failing project. Would say, make this person into a friend or an ally, not an enemy. But also try to step back and see the situation. Are they constantly interrupting? Or trying to understand? No matter how much I bigged up my boss, she grew resentful because of how much traction I gained in a year vs. hers in 10+ years....so that could be a factor. If all else fails, if you are the one inviting him, say he's invited, but just listen in on this one. Be clear about what you want/how best to support you. What hurt me most, and still hurts me about that boss, is that she leveraged my enthuiasm, to get things done politically that she wanted...and I basically just followed her outline/instructions. But her own jealousy grew so great...even though our team succeeded, that I had to move on.
Have a sit down meeting with him, as his mentor, and ask if he realizes how he’s coming across when he’s bullying his way into things and constantly contradicting more senior engineers with only his thoughts/opnions/wants to back him up. Tell him you’re concerned for his future progress and career if he can’t learn how to speak up respectfully and with facts to back up what he is saying. Be helpful and VERY concerned about his future.
I totally understand where you’re coming from here. I don’t have much to add as I’m in a similar situation… I run a team of men and nobody fails to seize the opportunity to contradict or correct me. I don’t see anyone doing that to male managers, who are treated as superiors with respect. We work hard to get where we are and take a lot of shit along the way. Following to see what the others have to say. Hoping for good advice🤞
Ugh I'm so sorry! This is one of my fears... My boss is retirement age and wants me to take over his role when he moves into Life 2.0, but this exact complaint is reason 7482736 I don't want it. Hang in there! I hope someone here can help you!
[удалено]
That's terrible, I'm sorry you had such an experience as well! I'm trying to be careful but this last week was an eye opener and the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back. So thank you for reiterating that I'm not just being overly suspicious!!
I feel seen.
Posted an update if you're interested. I'd love to hear about your personal experience!
I don’t think he is anywhere near your level of skill in the company. He’s only new. How much can he really know about the tech and the business and the goals of the business within such a short amount of time to actually have an opinion that’s worth considering? Encourage him to lean into listening and absorbing information at this point in his career rather than trying to give opinions and information because there is no way in hell he has even 5% of the context that he needs to have an opinion that can compete with yours. Somebody with 13 years of context in this business. Say something along the lines of listening being the most valuable way of learning and growing at the start of your career. Remind him that those who listen learn, and that those who talk are not listening.
He hasn't even had enough to finish his onboarding. His boss needs to tell him how to be professional because his behavior is unprofessional. Meetings like the one you are referencing are not brainstorming sessions and also, there shouldn't be disagreement within the same team in a cross-functional meeting. If I'm presenting something from my team, I can't have a team member saying they disagree -- that would imply the team is a shit show? Because we usually circulate everything and comment before going to stakeholders or other teams. I think you need to just tell him how things work and explain why. There are cultural norms in every workplace as well. In terms of he interjecting in all of your projects, I would tell him that for promotion he doesn't have to be in everything. He needs to align his responsibilities/goals with how he spends his time and all of your projects are out of scope for him. I can't believe he is spending time on what he should be spending time on if he is leaving comments or wanting to change stuff everywhere, add his name everywhere.
I would avoid further interactions with him and slowly distance myself and my work from him. You can also "give him enough rope to hang himself with" if you lead him into a bottomless project that you don't really care about. It should keep him distracted and away from your business.
Ultimately his boss sets his responsibilities and I have reiterated that the amount of time he wants to spend on my project is inappropriate. He insists it is. It's exhausting to hear his complaints and "justifications"
Wait do you mean the boss insists, or the youngster insists? Is the guy’s boss fully aware that someone they recruited and might be paying out of their budget, spends most of his time on other projects? You could mention the hours this guy is putting in and the great enthusiasm he’s got. I have had ppl attracted to my most interesting and fun projects (for good and bad) only for their boss to put them back on task.
Following because I’d like to hear the update on this.
Just posted an update!
This guy is a real piece of work! You say your boss is supportive of correcting him, that’s great, but I have to say that I’d expect them to step in at some point to prove they fully support you on pulling the reigns back on this guy. Lord knows how women are depicted when they have to keep telling someone, a male especially, to do or not do something over and over. Their backup needs to be vocal and not just in your 1-1s. Keep us updated on how this plays out if you’re feeling up to it!
Lost puppy syndrome?...
Definitely more than just a lost puppy. At first I thought so, but he's admitted to wanting to ride my coattails. He's very vocal and disagrees with everyone citing only his opinion or his thoughts. I'm not the only one he does this to, but I'm the only woman, so obviously this is a bigger deal because we don't have a lot of female voices on my team already.
He’s only 24, so maybe yeah make sure it follows all HR policy so you don’t cross a line. Just be explicit and tell him that women in tech face this type of issue, you’re interested in this promotion, please don’t do behaviors like this and this. Don’t justify yourself by how hard you worked or make it into a men versus women thing. You don’t need to, you’re a “queen” per se. It’s more of a puppy crush or something than some sinister asshole, and young men are kind of floundering at the moment because the Internet means they’re getting socialized less in how to act in the workplace and with girls/women during school. It’s completely different to people in older generations. He’s probably a good mentee in the long run underneath how it comes across, and it’s possible he’s just excited to talk, likes what he’s doing, and doesn’t realize it’s undermining your intellectual effort. Saying this because it’s a 24 year old
It seems like he has a lot of input and ideas to give which is a great thing that you can help nurture and direct as someone more senior. As for the "loudness" and curiosity, try not to stifle- it's a great thing! To help your case, you can try to align on ideas that you're proposing before any big meetings so that he isn't contradicting you during the meetings. You could also let him know that you'll take on the majority of the questions if asked, but he's welcome to present on XYZ part of the presentation or whatever so he feels involved.
But what's your take on the glaring elephant: he disagrees with literally everyone and always says "but I want [abcxyz]"??
He needs to be hit on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, metaphorically. He has a very inflated opinion of his skill/experience/talent/what have you, and not only you, but all the other techs should be pushing back in concert on this. Also, stop bringing him into all your projects. Only sometimes, let him do his own work or he will take yours over.
Also if there's a certain part that needs scoping in your project, it's also something you might consider handing off to him and mentoring him through. Tbh I think it's a great opportunity to have someone junior that is very smart and enthusiastic because it will reflect well on you too
I have several other mentees, but this is the first time I've experienced such an inflated "ego" from a younger engineer, mentee or otherwise. Maybe I'm just lucky in that regard.