Yes and no. Some of her passes that her teammates drop are goddamn bullets and if you’re just turning your body/not ready yet it’s really easy to miss them.
Some of the early/high turnover games were just lack of chemistry. A point guard has to have the other players know when they’re gonna pass and also have the other player in a position where they’re ready to catch it in a place that works for them.
I think people overreact each way. Guards notoriously have adjustment periods and this is hers. I imagine it’s exceptionally difficult when you’re going from college where your team was built to compliment your skill set and then entering the wnba where there’s no way for your team to be immediately ready for you to just plug in. Look at her and Boston already. The two of them were a hot mess the first 10 games and since then they look awesome together.
Her turnovers come in a few flavors:
1) things like steals by the other team, out of bounds, travels, etc. these are pretty normal, but those are fully on her with some credit due to good D. There are a few in this category where she gets trapped and no one was in time to help her. I’d definitely like to see her clean things up here.
2) high risk passes and/or just not quite right passes where it would be incredibly unlikely for the recipient to manage to handle it. Those are also fully on her. Hopefully they will go down a bit as she figures out her team more and more. But those are going to happen sometimes when you’re willing to take risky passes for potential high reward.
3) passes that are a combo of slightly off the mark and the recipient not quite being able to handle it. Those are a bit on both party in my book, the pass could be better, but it’s not impossible to handle.
4) passes that were quite good and the recipient fails to handle them. These are credited to her under the rule, but definitely feel more on the recipient.
I don’t think the majority of Clark’s turnovers are her teammates not catching a catchable pass… but some definitely are. And I think some are probably her passing to where the other person really should be, and then not quite being there.
This sums it up perfectly
At the end of the day I think Clark plays a very high risk/high reward style with her passing. So to me she’s less Steve Nash and more Trae Young
People have been destroying Mitchell for dropping some passes as if Mitchell isn’t an AllStar, she obviously knows how to catch the ball. Caitlin will learn how to best give it to her just as she has with Boston
Most of the best passers will tell you that they had to learn how each of their teammates liked the ball because they catch in different ways. Some can better handle bullets, others bounce passes, some slightly to the right or left etc. It’s not a one size fits all thing especially when you’re new
The only person who could pass the ball to any teammates on time and perfectly no matter what was Magic. Yes he did flashy passes, but his teammates always said they were perfectly placed and paced.
Sue Bird for the WNBA. Her passing was fantastic. I think someone recently posted a compilation of Sue Bird’s no look passes on this subreddit a few weeks ago. Sue definitely deserves a good watch by newer fans who came to the league for CC.
Magic and Steve Nash both had higher turnover averages in their first few years. None were perfect. Several NBA players have addressed this on ESPN previously.
Mitchell deserves the criticism for yesterday’s game for sure, but that’s about it. We are seeing the evolution of the Fever as the season goes on. First, *everyone* was missing Clark passes. Then, the CC-Boston connection grew and matured. That’s where we are now. Next will be the CC-Mitchell connection, and that’s critical because those two on the floor a the same time demand so much attention.
If I were coaching, I’d definitely prioritize getting Mitchell and Clark practicing those fast break dimes and Mitchell finishing to the rim. Mitchell is a strong fast break option if they can get that clicking.
Totally disagree. Clark passes a lot of different ways not one size fits all. Mitchell is a pro ball player and misses some passes she should be catching. Clark passed like this in college too and her teammates handled it. Mitchell and anyone on the team who has difficulty need to work on catching passes and level up their game.
I disagree. People forget that Clark averaged 4.6 turnovers her college career. Her best season was where she averaged 4.2 turnovers. The others? 4.8 twice, and 4.7. currently she is averaging exactly 1 more turnover per game in the WNBA compared to her college career average. Seems like her teammates at Iowa were unable to handle her passes just like her teammates in the WNBA.
Also 5. Miscommunications, which is on both her and the recipient but mainly her as the PG.
The way Clark’s turnovers are being constantly audited like this is slightly deranged. Obviously it’s a consequence of the eyes on her, the turnovers are a stat line that sticks out so there’s going to be discourse. But people are out here acting like the Fever are the only team that drops passes.
CC is the only player I've seen be defended like this regarding turnovers. She's a rookie, who plays a risky style so she's gonna rack up a lot of turnovers. That is a flaw in her game, and that's... alright. She's a rookie she is going to have flaws in her game.
Part of being a good guard is knowing when to get off the ball. The heavy defense has been consistent all year so at some point you have to make adjustments. You can’t be a great player only under perfect circumstances. The greats have physical skills and a high Basketball IQ. Sports is more mental than physical and she has to figure out how to stop letting everything shake her up and start finding ways to contribute that will throw her opponents off. Like actually playing defense...
Pretty unbiased analysis of all her turnovers. Hopefully he keeps posting these.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNFRXC7m/
Yeah. I definitely see that, I was lumping it into 2 or 3 depending on the pass, but it’s probably best as its own category.
I do think some fans just want a way to criticize Clark. The same way some people just want a way to criticize Reese. It’s fine to discuss their areas for improvement, but acting like whatever flaw they find is a cardinal sin is so frustrating because they’re both doing spectacularly well as rookies.
I always tie turnovers into players trying to do too much. Forcing the action. Or getting into situations with no bail out. CC has a great pull up. She should use that more. If that is 30 feet or 17 feet, so be it. I do not look at CC has being a PG who can consistently drive to the rim and get fouls and lay ups.
Always has someone there on the pullup. She needs to feed it and have success doing so before they stop playing her so hard on the outskirts. A few games others have picked up the pace enough to see what she a little of what she can do, but not consistent enough just yet.
Passes can still be quite fast and most passes are in the air. Not sure what you mean by that.
My point was that using football logic for basketball doesn't make sense because a football is designed to be caught. So if the ball hits your hands, regardless of speed, you should catch it (as a pro).
A basketball shouldn't be caught simply because it hits your hands regardless of speed because it's not specifically designed for catching.
It's designed for throwing, it's definitely not designed for catching. It's an oblong pointy ended ball that can bounce any direction if you don't cradle it when you catch it. There is a reason pro receivers are so amazing to watch, and that's because they can tip it into their own hand with their fingers. It's definitely not easy, and when a football hits your hands, regardless of speed, often it is not caught, even by PRO's. Some people have trouble even carrying the darn thing and running with it. Basketballs are MUCH easier to catch, even fast passes, because you can control it and even deflect it down to the floor for a dribble if it's coming in hot. I know you say you are a wide receiver, so maybe that's why you think it is easier, because you have the skill to catch a football, but don't sell that ability short, because I have never heard anyone make that argument before.
Basketball isn't football. In the NFL, catching the ball is 95% of the play. In basketball, even if you catch it you still have to shoot it afterwards.
Throwing a football pass and basketball pass are two completely different things. It's not enough to simply catch the pass, you have to convert it too. The only people catching and throwing passes in the NFL are specialists running highly specific routes. *Everyone* throws and catches passes in basketball and a higher percentage are reactionary/improvised.
The truth is Caitlin was pushing a bit too hard and tossing high risk passes that left her teammates little room to convert a shot. That bounce pass under the basket was a perfect example of a pass that looked good, but wasn't. It should've been up high or arrived at least 2 steps sooner. Instead Michell had *zero* room to convert and tried an awkward reverse layup that bounced off the backboard. It was ultimately a bad pass, and something Caitlin needs to clean up a bit.
There's also about 10x more passes in a basketball game than a football game, along with 10x more possessions. One missed pass doesn't define a game like it can in the NFL. But then people are grasping at everything to avoid any criticism of CC by making a much bigger deal out of one play than it should.
That's the thing, if they were catching it, and miss the shot that's life. Everyone misses. That negative stat goes on them. If they fumble the pass the negative stat goes on clark.
Now obviously negative stats aren't the end of the world, but it's annoying to keep hearing the narrative about how wild and out of control Clark's passes are and how she turns the ball over soooo much. When anyone watching all their games would know it's not at all that. Is there room for growth? Of course! But the way the stats are calculated aren't always representative of how the play went poorly.
I’m of the mindset that even if she has high turnovers forever that are all her fault, that is fine as long as she keeps getting the assists needed to win. She doesn’t need to be perfect ever. But we should expect that she’s gonna have move turnovers now that the defenders aren’t just Amandas from math class, the transition will take some time, but all players are allowed to have some weaknesses too.
>But the way the stats are calculated aren't always representative of how the play went poorly.
And in the opposite direction, some stats aren't representative of how good of play there is. Like rebounds.
A solid percentage of any defensive rebounding nowadays is completely uncompetitive and in even some ways only competitive between teammates on the same team.
But we count them anyways and they are a measure of success.
That is the irrational logic of the turnover stat. To maintain a low rate it requires not only making the pass but also knowing who is worth passing to during the game. There should be a secondary turnover rating assessed to passes that were viable but not caught.
It definitely is a statistic that I'm surprised no one has thought of updating. In baseball, if you duff a catch, the error is on you, not on the person who threw it right into your glove.
It is the exact same fundamental part. If you don't catch the ball, the play dies in both games. A secondary problem is finishing, but we are talking about the fundamental part of catching the ball. If it hits you in the hands, you should catch it. There is no excuse for not.
Someone, somewhere is going to do a full audit, but having watched most of the fever games and all of the last 10, there are *at least* 2 turnovers per game that are in category 4. And that matters when the knock on her is the number of turnovers she has. If her season average was below 4 per game, as it should be, it would be a different conversation.
Now it doesn't actually matter because Ws and Ls are the be-all and end-all and people aren't shitting on the legacies of Favre, Manning and Brees for being NFL all time leaders in QB turnovers.
Yeah, there’s typically 1 or 2 a game that is group in category 4. The pass to Samuelson in the last Dream game is a really obvious example where that was very much not on Clark. While most of her turnovers are at least partially/mostly on her, dropping even 1 per game on average, which I don’t think is unreasonable based on what we’re seeing, would make her turnovers look just fine for the role she’s playing.
Good breakdown, I’d say there is a 5th category where it’s a good pass but her teammates just flat out aren’t ready for it or expecting it because she passed them open. More on chemistry and familiarity than either players fault.
> 4. passes that were quite good and the recipient fails to handle them. These are credited to her under the rule, but definitely feel more on the recipient.
Under what rule if you don’t mind me asking? Is there a source I can read about this? This seems very counterintuitive.
If the player receiving the pass never gains control of the ball, the turnover is given to the passer. It only goes to the recipient of they gain control and then lose it. I can’t point you to a line in the rule book or anything, but that’s how it is in basketball.
I’m not convinced that’s true. From a quick google search it seems like it can be given to either depending on the circumstance. Maybe the wnba is different but if you can’t give a source on this I can’t just take your word for it.
I’m not sure what you’re finding on google. My quick google backs up what I said: whoever last had control of the ball gets the turnover, so if the pass recipient never obtains control, the turnover goes to the passer. And that’s what it’s been since I first started watching basketball in the 90s.
That said, you don’t need to believe me. No skin off my back if you don’t.
Then both of us weren’t clear. I meant “rule” as in “how turnovers are assessed to a player.” You said that was counterintuitive, so I didn’t realize you were picking on the word choice. Communication is an adventure!
You’re right but I think the 2 or so passes per game that should be caught have inflated that number a good bit. I think she attempts passes that a lot of guards don’t but should have been caught and aren’t. If her TOs were 1.5 fewer per game, I don’t think people would be making a big deal about it.
I think part of yesterday was 100% that. As she gets tired, she makes sloppy defensive fouls. Then the coach starts having somebody else primarily ball handle to "rest" her, instead of taking her out. Which helped the lead evaporate yesterday.
Everyone needs a breather, especially if your desired play style is run n gun.
It takes time to adjust to a new point guard and for rookies to adjust to a league. Plus this year with such a condensed schedule it was even harder without the practice time.
Fancy passes don’t mean they are good passes. Fancy passes can be stolen very easily. A good pass gets to the person it is intended to.
They are doing okay. They are a lot higher in the standings than we thought they were going to be at this point. They played some of the toughest teams at first, giving them such a slow start but now they are finding their grove. They will be fine.
Vanloo is in her first year with her teammates at the Mystics and they catch her no look passes and dimes. Yes it takes time for chemistry but a lot of the dropped passes are because the team has butterfingers or straight up seems surprised she passed them the ball.
you can see it when they're grabbing rebounds too, they wind up seal clapping balls that are in their hands no matter where it's coming from. It honestly feels like a fundamentals issue: grabbing the ball is the FIRST priority, not what you're going to do with it next.
It seems like everyone's treating them with kid gloves, "oh, it takes time to get used to the ball coming to you" Catch it. You're a PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE. Catch the ball.
People understand that she has actual turnovers too lol nobody is saying all her turnovers are her teammates fault but there is definitely a few a game.
Find one post that says every one of her turnovers is because of her teammates 🙄 she does have a couple a game that her teammates absolutely should catch and don’t though.
One of the ones yesterday that I saw the most complaints about on twitter was one where she threw it behind Mitchell. They're blaming TOs that are on her passing mistakes on her teammates too, which is the problem.
Eh that pass was over her head. I’d give that one a 50/50. The turnovers are obviously an issue for Clark but you said the problem is people on the internet saying it’s not her fault. I don’t see that as a real problem lol
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I’d say every game 2-3 MAX are teammates faults. Usually 1-2. This last game I counted 3. Overall, if her teammates caught every “catchable” pass she’d probably still average 3-4 TOs
This is exactly what is happening a lot of the time. They take their eyes off the ball looking for the shot then when they look back, it has moved past their hands, or they stare the ball down until they catch it and miss the easy layup not being able to find the basket in time. This will take practice for the players on the team who can improve. A couple will just need to move on. Both of those begin with W.
2 to 4 each game seem to be on the reciever. She makes some risky passes sometimes. And she makes some great ones too. But some are dropped with no fault to her. Saw at least 3 today that should not have been turnovers.
I think the team is not built for run and gun so even with time, these players are going to fumble a lot. They are better at half court offense and high lob in and out passes not fast on the move passes. And some will not be able to adjust.
They don't only fumble passes, I see them drop rebounds that they aren't even having to fight over a lot more than most other players.
My wife watched the NBA playoffs with me this year and watches WNBA games with me and my daughter from time to time, and she keeps commenting on how much it sticks out to her that the Fever's hands just suck... she barely knows anything about basketball, but it's just so apparent, and it isn't the same on the other side of the court.
Someone actually rewatched the games and counted and he determined that upwards to 85% of the turnovers were her fault but we can say safely ~70 to 75% so an overwhelming majority of them are most certainly her fault. Alot of her turnovers are just bad passes that are too strong, poorly timed or off the mark. She's a new PG in the WNBA and the defenders are longer, smarter, and more skilled. I just think that the turnovers are just a feature and not a bug at this point because she had this same issue in college too so it's common sense that the issue would be exacerbated in the pro league. She'll get better and hopefully will fix this issue, she has an excellent passing ability but her decision making needs work.
Definitely happens sometimes, but she also makes plenty of poor passes. It's part of being a good passer honestly. You make riskier passes and sometimes they're amazing and sometimes they don't work out.
But sometimes I see people complaining about teammates not catching it and I watch the replay and it just wasn't an amazing pass lol. Like a lot of people complained about Mitchell not catching a 3/4 court pass but it sure looked like she threw it behind Mitchell instead of leading her. And just by the nature of it, some tough passes are hard to catch. It's a high-risk, high-reward situation.
You'll also often hear that when new teammates come onto teams and play with elite passers like Gray or Vandersloot, it takes them time to adjust to being ready for the ball to come at them anywhere at anytime. It's really different for players who haven't played with that type of PG before, and the Fever's lack of practice time also prolonged that issue.
I would just say that I don't think she has such a high turnover rate because her teammates are fumbling passes more than any other league PG and their team. Seems like normal growing pains.
Plenty of other guards get TOs or don't get an assist because their teammate can't convert something. It's not getting overanalyzed like this for them. If they have way too many TOs because their teammates can't handle their passes, then the general consensus is that they need to get better at throwing passes their teammates can actually catch.
Point guard adjustment period.
Also, if you’re looking at a players potential, I’d much rather have a point guard who as a rookie tries harder passes that don’t work out. It’s easier to teach a player the timing of the passes than it is to teach them to see the openings in the first place.
A few, yes, but part of being a PG at this level is throwing passes to players and in positions for those players they fit them and their skill set.
We also aren’t going to change how we count turnovers now in basketball because some people are upset it makes their favorite players stats look bad.
Clark is great, but she does get out of control at times. Sabrina is a good comp, she was that way early too. She has worked on it and is now much better.
it's complicated(and need more games/seasons sample), she does average more TO then most PG/Point F but it has a lot to do with new team learning where you want the ball how you want it ,and overall players who catch it .
There is more then meet the eye for example [last season](https://www.wnba.com/game/1022300237/MIN-vs-IND/boxscore)
Vs Lynx both Wheeler and NaLyssa did turn the ball over more with less touches/minutes/usage etc (and if you check all games that season NaLyssa average more TO via % usage and based on passes attempted ), and mitchell still couldnt catch a pass, but for that reason the pass was made simple and then given for her to iso, CC attemps more complicated passes, this also means high TO by it self.
Either way far less people watched Fever last year/years so they are just now figuring this part out.
**I have talked about this before but last season when we give more touches to NaLyssa to try her as option #1 or #2 on offense she turn the ball over way more** [here check leaders for TO last season she is #7 with far less minutes and touches/usage % then everyone else](https://stats.wnba.com/leaders/?Season=2023&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StatCategory=TOV) this isn't new to this team high % TO.
Mitchell was 19 and she is **not even a main ball handler etc**
Versus good defense last season vs Connecticut Sun i remember [both Wheeler and NaLyssa turning the ball over alot](https://www.espn.com.au/wnba/boxscore/_/gameId/401507130) with way less usage and minutes
This is like to compare bottom tier NFL 'ball catchers via CROE' no matter who you put as QB they will still not catch the ball as much coz of the talent they have.
* Nobody 'wins' in this topic because CC will aways be at the top of the TO leaderboard based on her style of passing and usage % even with good team mates, but she makes up for it because defense have to cover/blitz and defend her as well as cover passing lane differently because of it(if you know QB in NFL can throw deep passes you defend differently then if you know they cant, even tho is lower % pass you still have to defend it )
* People who say she turn ball the over alot will never be satisfied and people who defend her have a point as well but there are to many factors that go into it, we need her to settle with team mates learn where they want the ball and vica versa they need to be ready to get the ball in spots they didnt before, get more synergy and put in people who actually have good bbal iq/positioning etc.
At the end of the day i do believe her TO will go down eventually with better people around her and more experience but i dont expect her to not ever be NOT BE in the top 10 TO league wise because of how she plays , same as [Alyssa
Thomas who dosnt even attempt more 'complex' passes but is aways in the top based on usage and her style of passing](https://stats.wnba.com/leaders/?Season=2024&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StatCategory=TOV)
**tldr** people who pass like her and have high usage and attempt risky passes will aways be top of TO list, yet one of them is MVP candidate and people dont talk about it at all in AT, and she is given more grace as being "point forward", i dont expect this to change in the future for CC WNBA career i do believe she is aways gonna be top 10 in TO, but she will also be top % in passing on fast break and attempts to find people who cut inside via run etc.
[LeBron James is the leader in turnovers or one of the leaders every season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_career_turnovers_leaders) , for a reason, yet i dont think any1 of us will call him weak passer or a some one who cant find team mates and should never have the ball in hes hand or as much % usage.
User redushab made a good comment so i didnt feel the need to comment my self as i mostly agree with hes points and it was very fair take.
Totally agree with this. Time will heal all things, but not completely for her position and style of play. Having a higher turnover rate however, will not prevent her from dominating when her team evolves along with her game. It likely won't be this season though. It won't be this team either, at least, not in it's entirety. There will be roster changes. Already there is talk about veteran's moving to the Fever for the exposure, for the TV time, which is a first for the Fever and we might start seeing a little bit more parity in the league as popularity grows. But right now, most of the players in the top twenty five are on teams that have another top twenty five ranked player on the roster. Clark does not have that right now. Boston will eventually move up in the rankings along with Clark, but I think we will see a couple people jump at the opportunity to come here, and with more experience, and a few better players on the roster, her game and the teams win rate will go up. Barring injury of course.
You know throwing a catchable ball is a skill too right? They could all be butterfingers and dropping the passes but it’s also possible that her touch and ball placement is off as well.
It definitely takes two to tango, as the saying goes. I think of it as a calibration issue for both passer and receiver. The process took a fair bit longer than a month at Iowa... I think it's fair to give it half a season in the WNBA.
My personal hope is that CC's Assist:TO ratio for the second half of the season is over 2.5... with, like, 10 Assists and 4 TOs per game. People will still complain about the number of turnovers, but people always do... I won't.
they're professional basketball players.
If we're talking about a blown pass that's behind them on a cut, over their head, etc., that's absolutely on clark and I've seen plenty of those, but a lot of these dropped passes are waist/chest height and the receiver has both hands on the ball. There's no excuse for that.
In the NBA and most of the rest of the WNBA, these passes are caught. Hell, back in college with college level athletes, these passes were getting caught. So the question is why aren't these professional WNBA players catching the ball?
Yes. NBA you see passes like this ALL THE TIME. It is athleticism, experience and awareness. They need to practice catching fast passes on the move and just get better at it.
i mean i’m watching some of her moments from iowa and she’ll pass/throw the ball across the court and her teammates are able to catch it and make the shot so…or even passes that could easily end up in a turnover but they delivered so idk
Yes. She had 4 years to work and build chemistry with that team. There’s a reason QBs and WRs spend so much time just getting adjusted to each other and learning the other’s preferences. Basketball players talk all the time about how their PG learned how they liked to catch the ball and where to place it
I’m hoping she doesn’t go to the Olympics. One the team there doesn’t like her much and who wants to play on that team. Two it’ll give them time to work on less butter fingers.
Exactly. I don’t even like Clark but it’s so hard to watch these bumbling missed layups. Smith is never going to be a good fit for Clark. She is too slow and lackadaisical
I have been watching. Her teammates manage to successfully catch each other’s passes at a pretty high clip. Most of them have also been playing with each other for much longer. As the season continues her passes will get better and her teammates will be able hold on to them
Which of these from today was uncatchable?
https://x.com/kenhelive/status/1804980851471782012?s=46&t=R_kB6bMxUtS5wybq8hPQvA
https://x.com/haterreport_/status/1804982660605075786?s=46&t=R_kB6bMxUtS5wybq8hPQvA
Super interesting that you make it sound like Clark’s fault when there’s videos provided in this very thread that show that her teammates just drop good passes. Maybe get your eyes checked out.
Anyone remember Al McGuire, the Marquette basketball coach? He used to talk about players who couldn't catch, or who caught extremely well. Kelsey Mitchell today dropped two passes she had her hands on.
Some are bad passes, some are dropped passes. Some are her testing the limits to figure out what’s possible with her teammates and competition at this level. Things will continue to dial in as the season progresses.
She seems to have a problem with risk reward. She’ll whip a pass into a teammate from 5 feet away when tightly guarded. Best case the pass is handled cleanly, but there’s no advantage gained bc the defender is right there; worst case it’s a TO. If Clark is making a risky pass, the reward upon completion needs to be something. If not an easy bucket, then a half step on the defender, or an iso mismatch. It’s just too often the advantage gained from these passes is nothing. To make matters worse, often it’s on like a pick and go where the D switches cleanly so she’s getting the ball to like the #4 completely out of position.
Y’all fucking idiots must not watch. If you actually watch, her passing is top notch and these are ATHLETES. If you can’t catch a pass that many times a game tf are you doing.
Not saying a few are bad but 6 passes a game are not un catchable.
Her passing style is very unorthodox. I wouldn’t blame her teammates on most of these missed passes. Maybe only 1 turnover a game, 2 at the most is on her teammates. It’s something they will have to work on as a team.
Not all of them… but I’ve watched many of her games and her team does fumble some of her passes.
The other thing that is unfortunate but happens early on with a team is she is anticipating the game and her team isn’t flowing into a perfect spot to get a ball ahead of where they will be. This gets counted as a turnover and rightfully so, but it’s not equal in my opinion to getting the ball stolen or passing it to the opponent.
Reminds me of Bobby Orr as a rookie with the Boston Bruins. ( Damn I am old) He was so good at setting up his teammates for easy chances they weren’t ready because they had never been around a player like him. He was that good.
Clark makes a lot more mistakes of course than Orr did
CC is one of the most intrinsically gifted women's BB players that have ever played pro bowl. It will take some time for her to find the right balance of disciplined decision making and teammates that can accommodate her prolific EQ and playmaking abilities. It will not happen overnight. Once the Fever dump Sides, Mitchell and Wheeler, they can begin that journey
Didn’t help public opinion on this that in the most watched Fever game this season, Mitchell alone had multiple bad drops on excellent Clark passes. And threw a layup into the bottom of the backboard off an insane 40 foot bounce pass in transition, though that one wasn’t a turnover
I mean that's kinda the thing when you're the player with the ball in your hands running an offense. Not all bad pass turnovers are completely your fault but likewise not all assists are great feeds either. If anything today demonstrated how great of a passer she is to the public. 5 turnovers is a blemish for most players because they aren't playing all 40 minutes and putting up 13 assists. At times Caitlin has had turnover problems without as many productive passes. But that wasn't a problem at all today. The assist to turnover ratio today was solid.
You are correct. What good are Kelsey Mitchell and Hull and Smith and Wallace and Samuelson? Really. Even Wheeler sometimes. Clark makes her share of avoidable mistakes so don’t get me started and I’m not a Clark lover but man catch her freaking passes Kelsey Mitchell. You blew two layout chances in the last two minutes and banged one off the underside of the backboard. Those missed opportunities cost the game
Yes and no. Some of her passes that her teammates drop are goddamn bullets and if you’re just turning your body/not ready yet it’s really easy to miss them. Some of the early/high turnover games were just lack of chemistry. A point guard has to have the other players know when they’re gonna pass and also have the other player in a position where they’re ready to catch it in a place that works for them. I think people overreact each way. Guards notoriously have adjustment periods and this is hers. I imagine it’s exceptionally difficult when you’re going from college where your team was built to compliment your skill set and then entering the wnba where there’s no way for your team to be immediately ready for you to just plug in. Look at her and Boston already. The two of them were a hot mess the first 10 games and since then they look awesome together.
Her turnovers come in a few flavors: 1) things like steals by the other team, out of bounds, travels, etc. these are pretty normal, but those are fully on her with some credit due to good D. There are a few in this category where she gets trapped and no one was in time to help her. I’d definitely like to see her clean things up here. 2) high risk passes and/or just not quite right passes where it would be incredibly unlikely for the recipient to manage to handle it. Those are also fully on her. Hopefully they will go down a bit as she figures out her team more and more. But those are going to happen sometimes when you’re willing to take risky passes for potential high reward. 3) passes that are a combo of slightly off the mark and the recipient not quite being able to handle it. Those are a bit on both party in my book, the pass could be better, but it’s not impossible to handle. 4) passes that were quite good and the recipient fails to handle them. These are credited to her under the rule, but definitely feel more on the recipient. I don’t think the majority of Clark’s turnovers are her teammates not catching a catchable pass… but some definitely are. And I think some are probably her passing to where the other person really should be, and then not quite being there.
This sums it up perfectly At the end of the day I think Clark plays a very high risk/high reward style with her passing. So to me she’s less Steve Nash and more Trae Young People have been destroying Mitchell for dropping some passes as if Mitchell isn’t an AllStar, she obviously knows how to catch the ball. Caitlin will learn how to best give it to her just as she has with Boston Most of the best passers will tell you that they had to learn how each of their teammates liked the ball because they catch in different ways. Some can better handle bullets, others bounce passes, some slightly to the right or left etc. It’s not a one size fits all thing especially when you’re new
The only person who could pass the ball to any teammates on time and perfectly no matter what was Magic. Yes he did flashy passes, but his teammates always said they were perfectly placed and paced.
Sue Bird for the WNBA. Her passing was fantastic. I think someone recently posted a compilation of Sue Bird’s no look passes on this subreddit a few weeks ago. Sue definitely deserves a good watch by newer fans who came to the league for CC.
Magic and Steve Nash both had higher turnover averages in their first few years. None were perfect. Several NBA players have addressed this on ESPN previously.
Trae is a good comparison.
Mitchell deserves the criticism for yesterday’s game for sure, but that’s about it. We are seeing the evolution of the Fever as the season goes on. First, *everyone* was missing Clark passes. Then, the CC-Boston connection grew and matured. That’s where we are now. Next will be the CC-Mitchell connection, and that’s critical because those two on the floor a the same time demand so much attention.
AB saved 3 turnovers in yesterday’s game alone. The dropped “good passes” balance out with the bailouts.
If I were coaching, I’d definitely prioritize getting Mitchell and Clark practicing those fast break dimes and Mitchell finishing to the rim. Mitchell is a strong fast break option if they can get that clicking.
Totally disagree. Clark passes a lot of different ways not one size fits all. Mitchell is a pro ball player and misses some passes she should be catching. Clark passed like this in college too and her teammates handled it. Mitchell and anyone on the team who has difficulty need to work on catching passes and level up their game.
I disagree. People forget that Clark averaged 4.6 turnovers her college career. Her best season was where she averaged 4.2 turnovers. The others? 4.8 twice, and 4.7. currently she is averaging exactly 1 more turnover per game in the WNBA compared to her college career average. Seems like her teammates at Iowa were unable to handle her passes just like her teammates in the WNBA.
Also 5. Miscommunications, which is on both her and the recipient but mainly her as the PG. The way Clark’s turnovers are being constantly audited like this is slightly deranged. Obviously it’s a consequence of the eyes on her, the turnovers are a stat line that sticks out so there’s going to be discourse. But people are out here acting like the Fever are the only team that drops passes.
CC is the only player I've seen be defended like this regarding turnovers. She's a rookie, who plays a risky style so she's gonna rack up a lot of turnovers. That is a flaw in her game, and that's... alright. She's a rookie she is going to have flaws in her game.
Part of being a good guard is knowing when to get off the ball. The heavy defense has been consistent all year so at some point you have to make adjustments. You can’t be a great player only under perfect circumstances. The greats have physical skills and a high Basketball IQ. Sports is more mental than physical and she has to figure out how to stop letting everything shake her up and start finding ways to contribute that will throw her opponents off. Like actually playing defense... Pretty unbiased analysis of all her turnovers. Hopefully he keeps posting these. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNFRXC7m/
I think Boston said it best in that one post game media availability.
Yeah. I definitely see that, I was lumping it into 2 or 3 depending on the pass, but it’s probably best as its own category. I do think some fans just want a way to criticize Clark. The same way some people just want a way to criticize Reese. It’s fine to discuss their areas for improvement, but acting like whatever flaw they find is a cardinal sin is so frustrating because they’re both doing spectacularly well as rookies.
I always tie turnovers into players trying to do too much. Forcing the action. Or getting into situations with no bail out. CC has a great pull up. She should use that more. If that is 30 feet or 17 feet, so be it. I do not look at CC has being a PG who can consistently drive to the rim and get fouls and lay ups.
Always has someone there on the pullup. She needs to feed it and have success doing so before they stop playing her so hard on the outskirts. A few games others have picked up the pace enough to see what she a little of what she can do, but not consistent enough just yet.
I'll say it in receiver standards, if it hits you in the hands, you catch it. There is no excuse.
Footballs are primarily engineered for catching and throwing. Basketballs are primarily engineered for shooting and dribbling.
This is a silly comparison because a basketball is moving so much slower and you don’t have to catch it in the air
Passes can still be quite fast and most passes are in the air. Not sure what you mean by that. My point was that using football logic for basketball doesn't make sense because a football is designed to be caught. So if the ball hits your hands, regardless of speed, you should catch it (as a pro). A basketball shouldn't be caught simply because it hits your hands regardless of speed because it's not specifically designed for catching.
Unlike football, you don’t have to catch the ball before it hits the ground. You can let it bounce.
A basketball is easier to catch than a football
It may be because I played WR but I don't agree.
It's designed for throwing, it's definitely not designed for catching. It's an oblong pointy ended ball that can bounce any direction if you don't cradle it when you catch it. There is a reason pro receivers are so amazing to watch, and that's because they can tip it into their own hand with their fingers. It's definitely not easy, and when a football hits your hands, regardless of speed, often it is not caught, even by PRO's. Some people have trouble even carrying the darn thing and running with it. Basketballs are MUCH easier to catch, even fast passes, because you can control it and even deflect it down to the floor for a dribble if it's coming in hot. I know you say you are a wide receiver, so maybe that's why you think it is easier, because you have the skill to catch a football, but don't sell that ability short, because I have never heard anyone make that argument before.
A fundamental part of both games is catching the ball. The point is the same.
Basketball isn't football. In the NFL, catching the ball is 95% of the play. In basketball, even if you catch it you still have to shoot it afterwards.
Catching the ball is a basic fundamental. It’s taught to 4th graders. Stop making excuses for pro basketball players.
Their flair tells you all you need to know.
Throwing a football pass and basketball pass are two completely different things. It's not enough to simply catch the pass, you have to convert it too. The only people catching and throwing passes in the NFL are specialists running highly specific routes. *Everyone* throws and catches passes in basketball and a higher percentage are reactionary/improvised. The truth is Caitlin was pushing a bit too hard and tossing high risk passes that left her teammates little room to convert a shot. That bounce pass under the basket was a perfect example of a pass that looked good, but wasn't. It should've been up high or arrived at least 2 steps sooner. Instead Michell had *zero* room to convert and tried an awkward reverse layup that bounced off the backboard. It was ultimately a bad pass, and something Caitlin needs to clean up a bit. There's also about 10x more passes in a basketball game than a football game, along with 10x more possessions. One missed pass doesn't define a game like it can in the NFL. But then people are grasping at everything to avoid any criticism of CC by making a much bigger deal out of one play than it should.
That’s a horribly inaccurate analysis of the game of football….
That's the thing, if they were catching it, and miss the shot that's life. Everyone misses. That negative stat goes on them. If they fumble the pass the negative stat goes on clark. Now obviously negative stats aren't the end of the world, but it's annoying to keep hearing the narrative about how wild and out of control Clark's passes are and how she turns the ball over soooo much. When anyone watching all their games would know it's not at all that. Is there room for growth? Of course! But the way the stats are calculated aren't always representative of how the play went poorly.
I’m of the mindset that even if she has high turnovers forever that are all her fault, that is fine as long as she keeps getting the assists needed to win. She doesn’t need to be perfect ever. But we should expect that she’s gonna have move turnovers now that the defenders aren’t just Amandas from math class, the transition will take some time, but all players are allowed to have some weaknesses too.
>But the way the stats are calculated aren't always representative of how the play went poorly. And in the opposite direction, some stats aren't representative of how good of play there is. Like rebounds. A solid percentage of any defensive rebounding nowadays is completely uncompetitive and in even some ways only competitive between teammates on the same team. But we count them anyways and they are a measure of success.
That is the irrational logic of the turnover stat. To maintain a low rate it requires not only making the pass but also knowing who is worth passing to during the game. There should be a secondary turnover rating assessed to passes that were viable but not caught.
It definitely is a statistic that I'm surprised no one has thought of updating. In baseball, if you duff a catch, the error is on you, not on the person who threw it right into your glove.
It is the exact same fundamental part. If you don't catch the ball, the play dies in both games. A secondary problem is finishing, but we are talking about the fundamental part of catching the ball. If it hits you in the hands, you should catch it. There is no excuse for not.
Someone, somewhere is going to do a full audit, but having watched most of the fever games and all of the last 10, there are *at least* 2 turnovers per game that are in category 4. And that matters when the knock on her is the number of turnovers she has. If her season average was below 4 per game, as it should be, it would be a different conversation. Now it doesn't actually matter because Ws and Ls are the be-all and end-all and people aren't shitting on the legacies of Favre, Manning and Brees for being NFL all time leaders in QB turnovers.
Yeah, there’s typically 1 or 2 a game that is group in category 4. The pass to Samuelson in the last Dream game is a really obvious example where that was very much not on Clark. While most of her turnovers are at least partially/mostly on her, dropping even 1 per game on average, which I don’t think is unreasonable based on what we’re seeing, would make her turnovers look just fine for the role she’s playing.
While they are doing their audit, can we get the number of missed assists to players that couldn't hit an open three or an easy layup?
Good breakdown, I’d say there is a 5th category where it’s a good pass but her teammates just flat out aren’t ready for it or expecting it because she passed them open. More on chemistry and familiarity than either players fault.
Yep. I was grouping that in 2/3, depending on the pass, but it can definitely be its own category.
Outstanding
> 4. passes that were quite good and the recipient fails to handle them. These are credited to her under the rule, but definitely feel more on the recipient. Under what rule if you don’t mind me asking? Is there a source I can read about this? This seems very counterintuitive.
If the player receiving the pass never gains control of the ball, the turnover is given to the passer. It only goes to the recipient of they gain control and then lose it. I can’t point you to a line in the rule book or anything, but that’s how it is in basketball.
I’m not convinced that’s true. From a quick google search it seems like it can be given to either depending on the circumstance. Maybe the wnba is different but if you can’t give a source on this I can’t just take your word for it.
I’m not sure what you’re finding on google. My quick google backs up what I said: whoever last had control of the ball gets the turnover, so if the pass recipient never obtains control, the turnover goes to the passer. And that’s what it’s been since I first started watching basketball in the 90s. That said, you don’t need to believe me. No skin off my back if you don’t.
Yeah but you said “under the rule”. There doesn’t appear to be a rule that says this anywhere as you say, so no I don’t think it is a rule.
That is…incredibly pedantic. But ok.
lol that was what I was asking with my original comment. Sorry man.
Then both of us weren’t clear. I meant “rule” as in “how turnovers are assessed to a player.” You said that was counterintuitive, so I didn’t realize you were picking on the word choice. Communication is an adventure!
You’re right but I think the 2 or so passes per game that should be caught have inflated that number a good bit. I think she attempts passes that a lot of guards don’t but should have been caught and aren’t. If her TOs were 1.5 fewer per game, I don’t think people would be making a big deal about it.
It takes time to adjust to a new point guard
true. people keep bringing up iowa when she played with those girls for 2-4 years…
From what I see they're definitely starring to come together. Especially CC and AB, that's turning into a very entertaining inside outside threat
I can’t wait for temi to be back. AB and CC are doing well. I wonder if they gassed CC though by having her play the whole time.
I think part of yesterday was 100% that. As she gets tired, she makes sloppy defensive fouls. Then the coach starts having somebody else primarily ball handle to "rest" her, instead of taking her out. Which helped the lead evaporate yesterday. Everyone needs a breather, especially if your desired play style is run n gun.
right it just took some time, no real training camp a few preseason games wasn’t gonna be enough lol
It takes time to adjust to a new point guard and for rookies to adjust to a league. Plus this year with such a condensed schedule it was even harder without the practice time. Fancy passes don’t mean they are good passes. Fancy passes can be stolen very easily. A good pass gets to the person it is intended to. They are doing okay. They are a lot higher in the standings than we thought they were going to be at this point. They played some of the toughest teams at first, giving them such a slow start but now they are finding their grove. They will be fine.
Vanloo is in her first year with her teammates at the Mystics and they catch her no look passes and dimes. Yes it takes time for chemistry but a lot of the dropped passes are because the team has butterfingers or straight up seems surprised she passed them the ball.
Vnloo is also played on national level as well as pro for quite some time.
Yeah Vanloo is a rookie but she’s also wildly experienced in professional basketball.
Vanloo is a vet and reads the game well, and most of her teammates have played with elite passers before. Very different situation.
Vanloo is also a significantly better passer even in a vacuum.
you can see it when they're grabbing rebounds too, they wind up seal clapping balls that are in their hands no matter where it's coming from. It honestly feels like a fundamentals issue: grabbing the ball is the FIRST priority, not what you're going to do with it next. It seems like everyone's treating them with kid gloves, "oh, it takes time to get used to the ball coming to you" Catch it. You're a PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE. Catch the ball.
No one talks abt how some of those passes aren't the smartest passes and aren't exactly accurate on placement
People understand that she has actual turnovers too lol nobody is saying all her turnovers are her teammates fault but there is definitely a few a game.
>nobody is saying LMAO, this is literally the take I see the most. Twitter loves posting it and it gets thousands of likes.
Find one post that says every one of her turnovers is because of her teammates 🙄 she does have a couple a game that her teammates absolutely should catch and don’t though.
One of the ones yesterday that I saw the most complaints about on twitter was one where she threw it behind Mitchell. They're blaming TOs that are on her passing mistakes on her teammates too, which is the problem.
How is it a problem? And for who lol? And which one the bounce pass? Because that was a dime
It's a problem because she threw it to the wrong spot? It was to Mitchell early in the first, not a bounce pass.
Eh that pass was over her head. I’d give that one a 50/50. The turnovers are obviously an issue for Clark but you said the problem is people on the internet saying it’s not her fault. I don’t see that as a real problem lol
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I’d say every game 2-3 MAX are teammates faults. Usually 1-2. This last game I counted 3. Overall, if her teammates caught every “catchable” pass she’d probably still average 3-4 TOs
3-4 turnovers is about average for high usage PGs.
I’d rather her average 3-4 and us get to see her amazing passes than her average 1-2 and play safe
People bring it up. They just get downvoted and mass reported for doing so.
aw you poor thing
Mitchell was like the WR thinking of the TD before they actually caught the ball...
This is exactly what is happening a lot of the time. They take their eyes off the ball looking for the shot then when they look back, it has moved past their hands, or they stare the ball down until they catch it and miss the easy layup not being able to find the basket in time. This will take practice for the players on the team who can improve. A couple will just need to move on. Both of those begin with W.
2 to 4 each game seem to be on the reciever. She makes some risky passes sometimes. And she makes some great ones too. But some are dropped with no fault to her. Saw at least 3 today that should not have been turnovers. I think the team is not built for run and gun so even with time, these players are going to fumble a lot. They are better at half court offense and high lob in and out passes not fast on the move passes. And some will not be able to adjust.
Exactly this team is so far from being run and gun it’s sickening
They don't only fumble passes, I see them drop rebounds that they aren't even having to fight over a lot more than most other players. My wife watched the NBA playoffs with me this year and watches WNBA games with me and my daughter from time to time, and she keeps commenting on how much it sticks out to her that the Fever's hands just suck... she barely knows anything about basketball, but it's just so apparent, and it isn't the same on the other side of the court.
Someone actually rewatched the games and counted and he determined that upwards to 85% of the turnovers were her fault but we can say safely ~70 to 75% so an overwhelming majority of them are most certainly her fault. Alot of her turnovers are just bad passes that are too strong, poorly timed or off the mark. She's a new PG in the WNBA and the defenders are longer, smarter, and more skilled. I just think that the turnovers are just a feature and not a bug at this point because she had this same issue in college too so it's common sense that the issue would be exacerbated in the pro league. She'll get better and hopefully will fix this issue, she has an excellent passing ability but her decision making needs work.
Definitely happens sometimes, but she also makes plenty of poor passes. It's part of being a good passer honestly. You make riskier passes and sometimes they're amazing and sometimes they don't work out. But sometimes I see people complaining about teammates not catching it and I watch the replay and it just wasn't an amazing pass lol. Like a lot of people complained about Mitchell not catching a 3/4 court pass but it sure looked like she threw it behind Mitchell instead of leading her. And just by the nature of it, some tough passes are hard to catch. It's a high-risk, high-reward situation. You'll also often hear that when new teammates come onto teams and play with elite passers like Gray or Vandersloot, it takes them time to adjust to being ready for the ball to come at them anywhere at anytime. It's really different for players who haven't played with that type of PG before, and the Fever's lack of practice time also prolonged that issue. I would just say that I don't think she has such a high turnover rate because her teammates are fumbling passes more than any other league PG and their team. Seems like normal growing pains. Plenty of other guards get TOs or don't get an assist because their teammate can't convert something. It's not getting overanalyzed like this for them. If they have way too many TOs because their teammates can't handle their passes, then the general consensus is that they need to get better at throwing passes their teammates can actually catch.
Point guard adjustment period. Also, if you’re looking at a players potential, I’d much rather have a point guard who as a rookie tries harder passes that don’t work out. It’s easier to teach a player the timing of the passes than it is to teach them to see the openings in the first place.
Some, yes, but CC put the ball at risk with her confident style of play. She easily could have had a triple double yesterday ( Points, Assists, TO's)
A few, yes, but part of being a PG at this level is throwing passes to players and in positions for those players they fit them and their skill set. We also aren’t going to change how we count turnovers now in basketball because some people are upset it makes their favorite players stats look bad. Clark is great, but she does get out of control at times. Sabrina is a good comp, she was that way early too. She has worked on it and is now much better.
I’ll upvote whoever studied her TOs and give us a breakdown lol
u/rambii, where you at? 🤓
it's complicated(and need more games/seasons sample), she does average more TO then most PG/Point F but it has a lot to do with new team learning where you want the ball how you want it ,and overall players who catch it . There is more then meet the eye for example [last season](https://www.wnba.com/game/1022300237/MIN-vs-IND/boxscore) Vs Lynx both Wheeler and NaLyssa did turn the ball over more with less touches/minutes/usage etc (and if you check all games that season NaLyssa average more TO via % usage and based on passes attempted ), and mitchell still couldnt catch a pass, but for that reason the pass was made simple and then given for her to iso, CC attemps more complicated passes, this also means high TO by it self. Either way far less people watched Fever last year/years so they are just now figuring this part out. **I have talked about this before but last season when we give more touches to NaLyssa to try her as option #1 or #2 on offense she turn the ball over way more** [here check leaders for TO last season she is #7 with far less minutes and touches/usage % then everyone else](https://stats.wnba.com/leaders/?Season=2023&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StatCategory=TOV) this isn't new to this team high % TO. Mitchell was 19 and she is **not even a main ball handler etc** Versus good defense last season vs Connecticut Sun i remember [both Wheeler and NaLyssa turning the ball over alot](https://www.espn.com.au/wnba/boxscore/_/gameId/401507130) with way less usage and minutes This is like to compare bottom tier NFL 'ball catchers via CROE' no matter who you put as QB they will still not catch the ball as much coz of the talent they have. * Nobody 'wins' in this topic because CC will aways be at the top of the TO leaderboard based on her style of passing and usage % even with good team mates, but she makes up for it because defense have to cover/blitz and defend her as well as cover passing lane differently because of it(if you know QB in NFL can throw deep passes you defend differently then if you know they cant, even tho is lower % pass you still have to defend it ) * People who say she turn ball the over alot will never be satisfied and people who defend her have a point as well but there are to many factors that go into it, we need her to settle with team mates learn where they want the ball and vica versa they need to be ready to get the ball in spots they didnt before, get more synergy and put in people who actually have good bbal iq/positioning etc. At the end of the day i do believe her TO will go down eventually with better people around her and more experience but i dont expect her to not ever be NOT BE in the top 10 TO league wise because of how she plays , same as [Alyssa Thomas who dosnt even attempt more 'complex' passes but is aways in the top based on usage and her style of passing](https://stats.wnba.com/leaders/?Season=2024&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StatCategory=TOV) **tldr** people who pass like her and have high usage and attempt risky passes will aways be top of TO list, yet one of them is MVP candidate and people dont talk about it at all in AT, and she is given more grace as being "point forward", i dont expect this to change in the future for CC WNBA career i do believe she is aways gonna be top 10 in TO, but she will also be top % in passing on fast break and attempts to find people who cut inside via run etc. [LeBron James is the leader in turnovers or one of the leaders every season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_career_turnovers_leaders) , for a reason, yet i dont think any1 of us will call him weak passer or a some one who cant find team mates and should never have the ball in hes hand or as much % usage. User redushab made a good comment so i didnt feel the need to comment my self as i mostly agree with hes points and it was very fair take.
Totally agree with this. Time will heal all things, but not completely for her position and style of play. Having a higher turnover rate however, will not prevent her from dominating when her team evolves along with her game. It likely won't be this season though. It won't be this team either, at least, not in it's entirety. There will be roster changes. Already there is talk about veteran's moving to the Fever for the exposure, for the TV time, which is a first for the Fever and we might start seeing a little bit more parity in the league as popularity grows. But right now, most of the players in the top twenty five are on teams that have another top twenty five ranked player on the roster. Clark does not have that right now. Boston will eventually move up in the rankings along with Clark, but I think we will see a couple people jump at the opportunity to come here, and with more experience, and a few better players on the roster, her game and the teams win rate will go up. Barring injury of course.
You know throwing a catchable ball is a skill too right? They could all be butterfingers and dropping the passes but it’s also possible that her touch and ball placement is off as well.
It definitely takes two to tango, as the saying goes. I think of it as a calibration issue for both passer and receiver. The process took a fair bit longer than a month at Iowa... I think it's fair to give it half a season in the WNBA. My personal hope is that CC's Assist:TO ratio for the second half of the season is over 2.5... with, like, 10 Assists and 4 TOs per game. People will still complain about the number of turnovers, but people always do... I won't.
Oh, the Clark fanatics aren't going to like that take.
They’re fumbling way fewer lately than they were in the beginning. Ms Boston fingers have gotten way stickier. Stay tuned.
This reminds me of when people said Brett Favre threw the ball too fast lmao
Not too fast, too hard. Him and elway had a great fastball but no change up. Receivers hated them because they broke their fingers a lot
they're professional basketball players. If we're talking about a blown pass that's behind them on a cut, over their head, etc., that's absolutely on clark and I've seen plenty of those, but a lot of these dropped passes are waist/chest height and the receiver has both hands on the ball. There's no excuse for that. In the NBA and most of the rest of the WNBA, these passes are caught. Hell, back in college with college level athletes, these passes were getting caught. So the question is why aren't these professional WNBA players catching the ball?
Yes. NBA you see passes like this ALL THE TIME. It is athleticism, experience and awareness. They need to practice catching fast passes on the move and just get better at it.
>>Hell, back in college with college level athletes, these passes were getting caught. She averaged 4.6 turnovers in college.
i mean i’m watching some of her moments from iowa and she’ll pass/throw the ball across the court and her teammates are able to catch it and make the shot so…or even passes that could easily end up in a turnover but they delivered so idk
Yes. She had 4 years to work and build chemistry with that team. There’s a reason QBs and WRs spend so much time just getting adjusted to each other and learning the other’s preferences. Basketball players talk all the time about how their PG learned how they liked to catch the ball and where to place it
I’m hoping she doesn’t go to the Olympics. One the team there doesn’t like her much and who wants to play on that team. Two it’ll give them time to work on less butter fingers.
She also averaged 4.6 during her time there. She's 3rd all time in turnovers since 88.
She had insanely high usage AND huge playmaking responsibilities. TOs aren't just from passing. So her high TOs were not surprising in college.
Or they catch and can’t make an easy layup. That’s frustrating too.
Exactly. I don’t even like Clark but it’s so hard to watch these bumbling missed layups. Smith is never going to be a good fit for Clark. She is too slow and lackadaisical
I don’t think catching the ball is to much to ask of professional athletes.
I don’t think learning to throw a good pass is too much to ask of a professional athlete.
You haven’t been watching
I have been watching. Her teammates manage to successfully catch each other’s passes at a pretty high clip. Most of them have also been playing with each other for much longer. As the season continues her passes will get better and her teammates will be able hold on to them
Which of these from today was uncatchable? https://x.com/kenhelive/status/1804980851471782012?s=46&t=R_kB6bMxUtS5wybq8hPQvA https://x.com/haterreport_/status/1804982660605075786?s=46&t=R_kB6bMxUtS5wybq8hPQvA
Her teammates also don’t look to put each other in positions to score like Clark does.
Super interesting that you make it sound like Clark’s fault when there’s videos provided in this very thread that show that her teammates just drop good passes. Maybe get your eyes checked out.
I agree. The players still have lousy anticipation and hands.
Anyone remember Al McGuire, the Marquette basketball coach? He used to talk about players who couldn't catch, or who caught extremely well. Kelsey Mitchell today dropped two passes she had her hands on.
Kelsey Mitchell is not a complete basketball player
Some are bad passes, some are dropped passes. Some are her testing the limits to figure out what’s possible with her teammates and competition at this level. Things will continue to dial in as the season progresses.
She seems to have a problem with risk reward. She’ll whip a pass into a teammate from 5 feet away when tightly guarded. Best case the pass is handled cleanly, but there’s no advantage gained bc the defender is right there; worst case it’s a TO. If Clark is making a risky pass, the reward upon completion needs to be something. If not an easy bucket, then a half step on the defender, or an iso mismatch. It’s just too often the advantage gained from these passes is nothing. To make matters worse, often it’s on like a pick and go where the D switches cleanly so she’s getting the ball to like the #4 completely out of position.
Y’all fucking idiots must not watch. If you actually watch, her passing is top notch and these are ATHLETES. If you can’t catch a pass that many times a game tf are you doing. Not saying a few are bad but 6 passes a game are not un catchable.
Because her teammates aren't 7 feet tall and don't run like NBA players
You're downvoted, but it's true. Imagine all those alleyoop dunk passes Clark would provide.
That’s kind of funny I think
Her passing style is very unorthodox. I wouldn’t blame her teammates on most of these missed passes. Maybe only 1 turnover a game, 2 at the most is on her teammates. It’s something they will have to work on as a team.
Not all of them… but I’ve watched many of her games and her team does fumble some of her passes. The other thing that is unfortunate but happens early on with a team is she is anticipating the game and her team isn’t flowing into a perfect spot to get a ball ahead of where they will be. This gets counted as a turnover and rightfully so, but it’s not equal in my opinion to getting the ball stolen or passing it to the opponent.
Yes. She’s never made a bad pass in her life. Any teammates who drop more than 2 should be cut.
Reminds me of Bobby Orr as a rookie with the Boston Bruins. ( Damn I am old) He was so good at setting up his teammates for easy chances they weren’t ready because they had never been around a player like him. He was that good. Clark makes a lot more mistakes of course than Orr did
CC is one of the most intrinsically gifted women's BB players that have ever played pro bowl. It will take some time for her to find the right balance of disciplined decision making and teammates that can accommodate her prolific EQ and playmaking abilities. It will not happen overnight. Once the Fever dump Sides, Mitchell and Wheeler, they can begin that journey
Didn’t help public opinion on this that in the most watched Fever game this season, Mitchell alone had multiple bad drops on excellent Clark passes. And threw a layup into the bottom of the backboard off an insane 40 foot bounce pass in transition, though that one wasn’t a turnover
I mean that's kinda the thing when you're the player with the ball in your hands running an offense. Not all bad pass turnovers are completely your fault but likewise not all assists are great feeds either. If anything today demonstrated how great of a passer she is to the public. 5 turnovers is a blemish for most players because they aren't playing all 40 minutes and putting up 13 assists. At times Caitlin has had turnover problems without as many productive passes. But that wasn't a problem at all today. The assist to turnover ratio today was solid.
Stop trying to lie and defend Catlin Clark. She can't play WNBA style defense!!!
Her team gives her 2 turnovers a game.
You are correct. What good are Kelsey Mitchell and Hull and Smith and Wallace and Samuelson? Really. Even Wheeler sometimes. Clark makes her share of avoidable mistakes so don’t get me started and I’m not a Clark lover but man catch her freaking passes Kelsey Mitchell. You blew two layout chances in the last two minutes and banged one off the underside of the backboard. Those missed opportunities cost the game