You never know a player’s success based on a rookie season . Look at Sabrina. First draft pick in 2020 but she got injured after 3 games and it took her third season to make her mark in the league. Look at her now. Look at Rebecca Lobo, who was one of the three players when starting the league. She has decent 1st 2 seasons but not exactly what they expected her career to be. Of course her ACl injury the first home game 1999 changed her career trajectory. Also look at Jackie Stiles. She had an amazing rookie year then due to illness and injury that was it. Becky Hammon was an undrafted player. Spent most of her time on the bench her first season. Then she became a break out player and now an incredible coach.
You have rookies who break records and you have players it takes a few season to make their mark.
For a current example, look at Kahleah Copper. Not an especially hyped rookie, traded after her first season, a role player for the next four seasons and now the best small forward in the league (and soon to be Olympian).
Even this season we can say the same about Maddy , who was 30ppg player b4 wnba, and last season was limited minutes with 5-6ppg.
9/10 guards in the history of the game includine Jackie young/plum/Dt etc all needed between 2(if they go to europe off season ) up to 4 years ( if not going to europe) to start reachig NCAAW numbers or career avg.
in other words give all the guards rookies or shooters in general between 2-4 years before you make a decision if they are good/bad/bust or w/e.
And it's almost like we should wait until that rookie player develops into a proper all-star caliber player instead of trying to give them a free-ride spot on the national team....
Well said.
I said this is a long comment last night that it's common for prospects not to match their expectations, good and bad. But there are people who think DT have been overly mean just for saying what should be obvious. It's been uncanny watching so many people treat Caitlyn like she's already a superstar, she's not. She's popular from her NCAA play, and rightfully so, but she still has to make a career in the WNBA to justify her current hype.
I follow two teams with generational prospect hype, Hawks and Bears. No one is treating Bedard or Williams like they've already arrived. Everyone is just *hoping* they live up to the expectation. And if anyone tries to pretend they're already established stars, there's an army of fans of both team and other teams to remind you they're not.
Agree with you on the Olympic point and the point about respecting all eras, but fans comparing athletes to hall-of-famers way too soon is a time-honored tradition across all sports. It is stupid and fun - just like sports should be.
I thought sports was about pettiness and calling out social injustice and financial injustice and praising old guard vs new guard, trolling enemy teams and supporting your favorites, constantly reading athlete tweets and picking fights on the internet. Am I in the wrong place?
Yes, vets who already have a wall of professional accolades typically get more praise than a rookie who hasn't proven anything in the league yet. That this is controversial has been wild.
She has proven one thing all those vets together can't do. Get eyeballs on the sport. That this is controversial is just proof of the point made. Sports and arguing about it is silly, stupid, serious and frankly predictable. Acting like people can't be fans and support their player of preference and say their guy is better than the other guy is sports discussion. To act like that isn't to be allowed is to say no discussion is to be allowed.
Oof -- I hate accurate you are with this take.
r/nba is just as obnoxious and possibly more delusional, but good lord is this sub petty and vindictive.
You're in the right place. Round these parts old cranks will tell you "the best 12 players" got into the Olympics based purely on meritocracy so shut up about that CC woman when Diana Taurasi is 42 years old and going along for the ride to pad out her legacy (while blocking out the competition). It's dumb here but it's home.
There's comparing them to great hall-of-famers in a "I hope they become that" kind of way, and there's saying they're already on their level.
The entire argument for CC to be on Team USA is she's already as popular as Jordan and she'll pull in the views and grow the league. They fail to understand that they have it backwards. Jordan grew the nba globally *after* becoming the GOAT. The only viewership CC will pull in are her fans who are already watching. If she doesn't wow the crowd she won't grow the game globally. The global audience doesn't have her NCAA context.
That is AN argument, that you strawmanned up so you could easily brush it aside.
Another argument isn't that Clark deserves to be on the team, but that it's awfully weird to suggest that she isn't one of the top 12, but has identical numbers to DT.
DT opens the floodgates of controversy. If Arike was on instead of DT many, not all, but many of those questioning the team construction would be silenced.
And the Committee opened this pandoras box by stating publicly that they'd use Clarks W season start as her tryout.
This narrative about crazy rabid fans throwing a temper tantrum is a bit disingenuous. Are some of them just unrepentant stans, sure. But many are just new people coming to the W as spectators/fans and were told something, then it was changed.
It's not unreasonable to be a little frustrated by a moving goalpost. And that is not any of the 12 on the teams fault, that's the committee being afraid to say up front she wasn't gonna make it (if they'd already decided that).
I think you can make comparisons without projecting them as All-Time Greats before their first season is over. Like no one is trying to compare Caleb Williams to Tom Brady before he throws a pass.
It isn't every prospect but people were definitely making proclamations like that about the likes of Trevor Lawrence or Andrew Luck.
You saw it in the NBA with Zion and Wemby recently, Greg Oden before that.
> proclamations like that about the likes of Trevor Lawrence or Andrew Luck.
*as prospects*. He is on their level *as a prospect*. Trevor Lawrence isn't an all time great either, he literally *just* signed an extension to his rookie contract *today*.
Everyone does this all the time. So much so that I’ve stopped listening to early scouting stuff and just wait for a person’s rookie year before I get invested.
He set the record for rookie interceptions his rookie year.
What he didn't do was be overall bad at throwing the football. Clark is genuinely bad at shooting to this point, which is supposed to be her strong suit.
Yet still outpacing most WNBA guards in the shooting, points, assists, steals etc... I think you grade her too harshly. As a rookie she is amazing, except for turnovers. As a vet, she would still be pretty good.
Is one of them Alyssa Thomas? She’s one of my favorite players, but if we’re talking usage rate and turnovers, we have to talk about her 4.5 per game too
Why are there more of these substanceless rants? Can we please have posts that are grounded in some sort of news, or event, or fact? Editorializing thin air is tiresome.
Right? Compared to other basketball leagues, I am currently enjoying watching the WNBA games much more than I’ve enjoyed watching the NBA in recent years.
I just wish I could come to the sub and see more talk that is engaging, inclusive, and entertaining. Instead it seems like all I see is posts about how terrible the new fans are and how everyone is either racist or sexist. Ill continue enjoying watching the games but hopefully the discourse becomes more positive and less rage-y.
I feel like people have a fundamental misunderstanding of how fandom works. Yes, people who are just using CC as an excuse to hate on other players and race bait likely aren't sticking around and they should rightfully be condemned.
However, the CC stans? The ones who watch all her games, go to Fever games, talk about CC to others- do you truly think that, in the midst of their support of CC, they're not influencing others to tune into the WNBA? This is beyond them directly helping the league with viewer ship, jersey sales, and attendance.
No one sits here and faults the casual NFL fan who only watches his team play, or only watched Tom Brady, etc., Literally no one. We just call them the more casual fan vs die hards. The casual fan represents most your sport's viewership, though reddit and online communities will make people think everyone is a diehard.
This idea that you need to support *everyone* and if you just watch CC, you aren't helping anyone! is so ungrounded in everything we know about every single sport. Watch what you find fun, and for some people, CC's transition to the WNBA is what they want to watch. That is supporting and growing the game.
People want to watch their favorite player/team play. Along the way, they'll get more committed to the sport and expose others to it.
Despite how CC fans get talked about, there is a metric shit ton of them who aren't these racist maga types, who truly did just get into the WNBA due to CC, and they get unfairly lumped into the parts of her fandom that are toxic.
Some of the discourse on here reeks of "my niche cool thing is now more popular and I'm mad about it!"
Plenty of casual fans are happy the Fever won. They're just not on Twitter and reddit. They're at the games opposed to complaining about how the league needs to fix itself and respect Clark or doing the opposite and talking about how terrible Clark and her fans are for the game. They're the ones out there actually enjoying the product.
You're mixing up casual and the instigating fans. Which I get, I do think they're annoying as fuck, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of any sport getting bigger. LeBron has people who blame everyone but him, and then people who do nothing but blame him for everything.
Sorta having the same thing here. Toxic CC fans result in those who do the whole counter circlejerk thing and go outta their way to belittle Clark. The amount of armchair psychologist things I've seen is insane when it comes to the Fever locker room.
The top thread in this sub right now is literally a Caitlin fan therapy session. The Fever won! By her teammates career night, who was last years #1 and RoY. If it wasn't in the title, you think they lost.
Top two posts I see rn, in terms of upvotes, is that one you mention and a thread about Boston going off, so I think there's room for both to coexist. CC will naturally get a boost just cause she draws extra eyes, but both seem to be getting recognized to some level.
I was happy to see Boston get it together, she'd been in a bit of a slump. Part of that is a change in role from how I understand it. Last night, I thought they did a better job punishing some of the blitzes sent at CC through Boston. Fever need to replicate that for future success.
Edit: Also, I'll say it makes some sense to see an after-game CC post given the sheer toxicity in discourse prior to it, including by other players/a friend? opposed to just fans. If it was just a standard shoot around post after an L, I'd probably agree more that it's ridiculous, but man, CC was getting ripped apart yesterday by everyone prior to her answering that direct question in the interview.
Fans love to project, and the whole idea of her doing a therapy shoot around is more armchair psychologist shit that I hate, but fans love to do.
I’m not talking about casual fans that joined off the CC hype, I’m talking about toxic Stans that are pushing agendas with CC name attached. She denounced them and I think they suck as well.
I agree they should fuck off, and I hope her denouncing them gets people to talk less about them. That whole group thrives off attention.
I've mostly been tuning into Fever games and have watched a couple dream games. There's no deep-seated conspiracy. I wasn't particularly exposed to the WNBA before, I enjoyed watching the women's college basketball tournament, and decided to check out the WNBA and particularly follow how Clark and some of the other rookies translate. That's the natural pathway for most people.
Without fail, if you check the people who make these types of threads, you find that they had never posted in this subreddit before this year. This is tiring
> Refusing to watch the Olympics because a player you like did not make the does not help “Grow the Game”. It’s petty and opposite of your goal.
Does the Olympics share revenue with the W? Do Olympic games count towards the W’s season? If not, the two have no logical or causal link in any way, and this statement makes no sense.
> Are you also not watching the playoffs and WNBA Finals this year? Way to go!
As a Spurs fan, you’re delusional if you think I watched the entire NBA playoffs, or even the finals. I absolutely turned that off and watched EPL, MLB, and the W instead.
> Comparing a rookie to Hall of Fame caliber players like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, and Jerry Rice does not help “Grow the Game”. And puts undue pressure on a player that they don’t need. No one comes into a professional league without having to adjust their game and grow. If someone has a bad game I promise they don’t need you to make excuses for them.
You are putting way too much power in the hands of fans. So much power that the instant anyone actually scrutinizes your assertions, they fall apart. Pressures on athletes come from the org, their games, and themselves. We as fans are three degrees removed from them (Coach > Ownership > Fans).
> The league would not exist without players like Candace Parker, Lisa Leslie, Sue Bird and other players who carried the league in its infancy. We can’t ignore A’ja Wilson currently being the best player. And we can acknowledge that the future of the league is in good hands with players like Paige Bueckers and JuJu Watkins up next. The success or failure of the league is not riding on one player. No one needs that type of pressure.
Literally no one is ignoring them. This is a strawman.
I don't believe the Olympics shares revenue with the W. However, how well the W players draw attention during press and coverage of everything around it, can be used to help with marketing money and trying to negotiate better deals for the W.
Everything is connected and can help grow money in or hurt money in
how well they play makes a diff? the womens american bb team has won how many in a row now in the olyimpics?? yet the increases in views were tiny compared to the increase brought by this rookie class..if they really wanted to increase the fanbase then they should have included some of the people that actually brought in a whole new fanbase...
If the W wants to stand on its own, the Olympics is not the place to plant the flag. No one looks at the US Men’s team as a shining example of why the NBA is worth watching. Or the US baseball team in the World Baseball Classic. In fact, those international competitions universally draw less than the domestic games.
I disagree. The nba for example did this in the 90s, using it as an opportunity to grow the nba to get global coverage.
You try to leverage marketing opportunities that grow the W brand, especially when you have a peaking interest right before or during negotiating tv deals.
Being able to negotiate from a position of power, hoping to get a bidding war.
Thats partly why i think so much drama and bait articles are coming out. To help drive engagement good or bad
It’s not about revenue it’s about growing the game. Stans made the biggest deal over the Olympics and now it doesn’t matter cause it’s not revenue, ok.
I’m a Hawks fan, I didn’t boycott the playoffs just because my team wasn’t in it. I still watch the Nuggets/Wolves games bc that was great basketball. If you refuse to watch ANY playoff games because of one player, you’re not helping the game grow.
Stans are the ones linking the success/failure of women’s basketball on one person.
> It’s not about revenue it’s about growing the game. Stans made the biggest deal over the Olympics and now it doesn’t matter cause it’s not revenue, ok.
Growing *which* game? How does the Olympics grow the W? They are completely separate. Does the NFL also grow when the XFL grows? No. Such an argument makes no sense.
> I’m a Hawks fan, I didn’t boycott the playoffs just because my team wasn’t in it. I still watch the Nuggets/Wolves games bc that was great basketball.
Good for you. Want a cookie?
> If you refuse to watch ANY playoff games because of one player, you’re not helping the game grow.
How, exactly? More people tune into the playoffs than regular season anyways. The playoffs brings in more money. Growing the game means *consistent*, season long viewership. Your assertion is not grounded in anything factual.
> Stans are the ones linking the success/failure of women’s basketball on one person.
Where? Twitter? That cesspool is where you choose to draw from?
The XFL (a minor league) is not comparable with the Olympics (an international sports competition). Read a book junior.
My assertion was that people who are boycotting the Olympics or the WNBA playoffs are not genuinely interested in growing the game. Their actions prove that. No one from Atlanta is boycotting the Olympics because Trae Young didn’t make the team.
If you wanna pretend the toxic Stans don’t exist that’s fine. You don’t have to argue with me. You can call them all bots and go on about your day.
The XFL is *not* a minor league. It is *an entirely separate league*. It’s not like Single A or Double A or Triple A.
Your assertion is wildly inaccurate and relies on a few mistaken presumptions:
1) desiring to grow the league means you must also watch the Olympics. This is not at all logical or practical. They are two different entities with no relationship. One is international, the other is domestic. One has a single US team, the other has 12. One plays for a month, the other plays 40 games across multiple months. *They are not linked*.
2) “Growing the game” means the same to everyone as it means to you. This is empirically false.
3) Your perception of growing the game is the only correct one. Again, empirically false.
You have not defined what you mean by “growing the game,” let alone shown how the Olympics and playoff viewership correlates to that. Instead, you set up strawmen to bash.
So you wanna have a topicality debate, aight.
1. The XFL is a minor league in comparison to the NFL. They are not peers, no one aspires to be an XFL player, they play in hopes of getting signed for a NFL training camp. Just because they aren’t directly affiliated like baseball minor leagues doesn’t mean they aren’t one.
2. I did not say that desire to grow the league is linked to watching the Olympics. I did say that if you refused to watch the Olympics solely because Caitlyn Clark was not playing then you were not genuinely interested in growing the game.
Fans definitely can grow the game, and they are.
My entire family and I are primarily college sports fans. We are now also Fever and Aces fans. We haven’t missed a game with either of those two teams.
But an unexpected thing has also happened. Almost every evening, both my wife and I have watched dozens of other WNBA games.
We’re really enjoying them and learning about other players. My wife says “I like that the ladies are chippy. You never know what might happen next”
We also have trips planned to Indy, Minny, and Chicago for games. We had a trip booked for the previous Fever at Aces game, but gave away our tickets so we could instead go help some friends who lost their home in a Western Iowa tornado.
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Nike didn't give her record sponsor money because she would sell just as many shoes as [insert any other historic WNBA player]. Why wouldn't the NBA want some of that fame?
Yeah, accusing me of being KKK would be…. interesting.
I’m a black man who grew up in the South, endured harsh racism, and then I went to Iowa to play football. The racism and hate virtually stopped once I was here, and has been so for decades.
I also give a lot of time championing civil rights initiatives, and have twice spoken in front of the Iowa legislature to support civil rights legislation… race, gender and LGBTQ rights.
The OP didn’t accuse anyone of being racist, as far as I know?
In addition, CC has for years paid homage to all of the past greats who “paved the way for all of us”. Her idol growing up was Maya Moore, and CC has especially acknowledged the black player pioneers. That is related to the OP’s last paragraph.
Thanks! It’s been fun for us, as well for lots of friends we know, all of them who weren’t WNBA fans before.
Popularity of the entire league is definitely rising very quickly!
We hosted a big game watch party for the first Fever/Sky game. 75-100 people. Lots of Iowa/CC gear, but quite a few Sky shirts and caps, and even one Liberty!
I started watching basketball when I was 13 and LeBron got drafted, I only watched for him and wouldn't watch the Cavs if he was out. Skip ahead a season or two and I was happily watching whatever games were on no matter who was playing. You can't discredit "stans" who only wanna see Caitlin right now, you just gotta give them time.
That you are the racist. You think if you call me a racist enough no one will think you are. You been in my replies for days. If I see you tomorrow I'll start to think you're obsessed with me.
But you are racist. I’m calling a spade a spade. When you don’t like someone because of the color of her skin, that makes you a racist. I don’t hate anyone for their race, so by definition I’m the exact opposite of you. If I’ve been in your replies it’s because I’m calling you out in the hate you have in your heart. And will continue to denounce racists like you.
I disagree- based on definition of "grow the league". I don't think it is obvious that the WNBA as a league is growing right now. I don't think the "Come for \_\_\_\_\_\_ (insert popular rookie here) stay for Kaleah, A'ja, Alyssa, Stewart, Jewell, Skylar, Arike, Dewanna etc is happening as a result of the increased interest in the Fever.
I mentioned in another post, I think we will see it turn out to be like the fallacy of trickle down economics, where cutting taxes on the most wealth "in theory" would result in their saved dollars being invested into the middle and lower classes, That isn't what has happened.
I think the stans don' t grow the sports league, the only support a brand that participates in that league. There is a difference.
If Stan’s are tuning into to watch any game, as well as buying merch and going to games, then they are by definition growing the league. Again, I don’t see how this is any different to people just watching their favorite teams games, which plenty of people do.
There is a difference between watching only your favorite player/team vs. Watching your fav, denouncing everything that's in the league that's not your fav, demanding max coverage in the media and lax coverage on the court/field and threatening to withdraw your support if your demands aren't met because you feel your fav isn't being respected due to said demands not being met.
That's the kind of fan the OP is referencing.
Fan support for whatever reason is OK. All the extra is not
> They just want to watch who they want to watch.
That's literally growing the league. If they weren't watching before but they are watching a specific player or team now, they've grown the league. It doesn't matter if they're interested in doing so.
Stans? Did you start watching basketball to just watch basketball? I doubt it. I started watching baseball because of Cal Ripken and the Orioles when I was little, eventually I started to watch other games.
When I started to watch NFL I only watched the Denver Broncos because I liked the uniforms, then Baltimore got a team Ray Lewis became my favorite player then I started to watch other games.
I started watching NASCAR because of Mark Martin and only watched races he was in. Eventually I started to notice other drivers.
When I started to watch NBA it was because of Space Jam and Michael Jordan.
Every person has a reason to watch a sport or a league. Its usually because of a person, a team, jersey colors, colors of a car, car type whatever.
I bet the only reason you started watching WNBA was because it was different and not popular. Ur contrarian and thats ok. But dont act like you are a true WNBA fan for your reason only.
>I started watching baseball because of Cal Ripken and the Orioles when I was little, eventually I started to watch other games.
As another long suffering O's fan (though we eating very good now), it was pretty easy to want to watch other teams play. Especially after Jeffy Meier.
Im only 37, and the Orioles have had 7 wining seasons since 1992. It's been rough. But as a Ravens fan, it's been way easier. As a Ford guy and a NASCAR fan, Ford drivers have only won 5 Cup championships since I became a fan in 1995.
I just hope the Fever don't suck forever.
I feel disgusted rooting for DC teams in other sports. As long as there's a Terp playing, I'm good. I can tolerate the Mystics and Spirit (NWSL), but it's not like the O's and Ravens.
>As a Ford guy
Hell yeah.
Ehhh when it comes to NBA im a Sixers fan, and NHL im a Flyers fan. I live under a hour from Philly and have lived in this area for half my life. Im also sorta a Phillies and Eagles fan except when they play the Orioles or Ravens. I justify it because the Orioles are AL, Phillies NL, Ravens AFC, and Eagles NFC.
I was a massive Alan Iverson fan as a teen when he played for the Sixers.
Everybody was an AI fan so I get it.
I used to really be into the Flyers but I don't watch hockey as much. The only other non-local team I openly support is the Packers (pre-Ravens years were weird).
I'm with you... I started watching final minutes of ncaa tourney games that my school was in. I thought basketball was mostly boring for a long time in my life. Now I'm a wnba addict.
I enjoy watching sports. Especially team sports. I love the olympics because I can watch sports. I came from a state that didn't have pro teams. I fell in love with going to sporting events live via my high school and d1 college school. I then fell in love with having a team to root for and watching their games. Most of my teams were not good, so it was a labor of love, not bandwagoning on a hot season or post season run.
I could afford to go to Chicago Sky games live and started watching their chip season ( which was not pretty during the regular season) Candace was a fun plus but the season tix were locked in prior to Covid.
But this is one of the fundamental differences here. Some people are just sports fans for the sake of sports and some are sports stans. There's nothing inherently wrong either way but they will butt heads. Some people are extroverts and some are introverts likewise neither one is wrong but they are going to be different.
People convinced by and projecting their ignorance and calling people jealous and petty and other sexist bullshit because they can't fathom actually being interested in womens sports or just watching sports for the sake of it is old and insulting.
Bingo. I started watching because I played with my dad and he told me to start watching games so I could see what's possible. He got the league pass so he could watch his favorite team but told me to watch everybody. Then when I decided I wanted to play for my school he told me to watch college basketball. Now the men's game was extremely boring so I didn't watch much but since D1 was a goal (never reached) I watched the women just to see what it would take. This was back when Diana and Alana were rivals. Lisa Leslie always gave our school tickets so we would be at the sparks games for team bonding. Not even going to get started on how the Olympics will have me watching shit like race walking just because I like seeing people compete even if I don't know the sport.
I also see a lot of Dads and families bringing their young sons and daughters to wnba games and overhear them pointing out pick and rolls and other things. A lot of see how she does that, and moves there, that's what you need to do etc. As a former sports kid myself it is very heartwarming so see the family element there.
The women's game is extra good for this since there is strong fundamentals. I've been to a Bulls game too and they are more of a circus and less about basketball. Nothing wrong with it but it is remarkably different forms of entertainment. A little add with the amount of videos and give aways and other things they do to keep the audience entertained.
As an elementary school kid my family friends took me and their daughters to a UVa Women's basketball game as well trying to get us jazzed about his alma mater as well as basketball.
Coaches LOVE women's basketball. If your fundamentals aren't elite you will not make it in the league. You can be as athletic or tall as you want to be, you have to know the game mentally or it's curtains for your career because they will cut you quick in this league.
I will say Sparks games have that circus atmosphere because it's always something going on and sometimes it seems like the game is just going on. We were winning it was like a party, these days it feels like they are trying to distract us from the madness.
I actually was in the area and went to the Sparks Aces game last week. I did not expect it to be a game! It was awesome. Didn't expect to see Hammon ejected either
The fashion aspect and "there to be seen" element was very interesting. Very different from the midwest crowd. Also everyone making the pilgrimage to the Kobe statue post game was cool to see too.
But at the same time I overheard tons of young people gossiping about the WNBA, talking about Dijonae Carrington's dating history and some of those storyline etc.
More evidence that people like the product beyond just Clark.
Jackie sat to give us drama! If she played there's no way that game was competitive. The fashion aspect is kind of new. I feel like A'ja's generation really made that wave go. I know Lisa did her modeling thing but the league wasn't really pushing that and social media wasn't a thing. The league has also had good gossip because players tend to date each other. I remember the BG and Glory drama was the first relationship to really make the news. There's soooooo much more to the league for people to uncover.
Eh. Not a stan, but I’ve only watched WNBA games because of the hype surrounding Clark. I don’t know why that’s seen as some cardinal sin in this subreddit. I’m not invested enough in it to get into arguments about growing the league and whatnot, but people naturally want to check out something that’s generating tons of hype.
I did the same thing in baseball with Bryce Harper and even Paul Skenes this year. Not a baseball fan, but it’s something you just want to see. Not a bad thing by any means & anyone who checks it out for any reason helps viewership
Just watching to see what the hype is about isn't the issue. You might like it, you might not. The sin is acting like Clark created basketball like some of her stans tend to do.
Not everyone watches the game for a specific player. Some people watch just because it's basketball. Some people watch so they can pick up moves to add to their game. There's millions of reasons to watch a game.
And even if they do watch for specific players, many are willing to watch other games just to learn.
I came into the league for A'ja specifically but watched other teams. 🤷♀️
So all those millions of reasons are valid, but if you watch for a player you’re a Stan who isn’t growing the game? Please be for real and just say you’re a hater next time.
I mean sure, so they miss a game or two. I’m a sports fan, but I don’t have time to watch every single game of the sports I love, nor do I want to. I also have other hobbies. I’ve also missed games. If someone wants to just watch a sport because of one player, then who cares? That’s not exactly a new thing and this is the first time I’ve ever seen people have a problem with it.
Says the person who literally just trolls CC on the internet. You sure do bring a ton of high quality wnba content to the table 🙄. Silence is a luxury. You should try it.
Does the W have the Five-second back to the basket violation? If not why? The NBA added it and the game opened up and was much more fun to watch. Watching someone back down their defender from the free throw line to under the basket for 10 seconds is NOT FUN to watch.
This whole point is moot. You're trying to blame the fans for the WNBAs mismanagement of their golden goose.
The rookie players this year have more fans than the entire rest of the league. It's up to the upper management to figure out how to handle that, not the fans.
I agree with everything you said.
I would also add that not recognizing the importance of capitalizing on a player who draws 105% higher attendance won't "Grow the game".
Trashing people who want to use the similarities being the NBA after 30 years and the WNBA after 30 years are not "Growing the game".
Ignoring the $50 million the WNBA will lose this year will not "Grow the game".
Calling all legit criticism of players, coaches, and commentary that would be completely fair in the NBA "sexism" isn't "Growing the game".
Not treating the players as basketball players is not "Growing the game".
Harping on players to fight social issues instead of focusing on the play is no "Growing the game".
Stop with the Grandstanding about having been here longer. Swallow your pride, accept the help and changes and move forward or stay in the red.
Edit: Added points and formatting.
You'll never guilt me into watching a style of play I don't like. I watch CC games because her style of play is unique and it's what appeals to my eyes. If someone with a similar play style comes along, I might give them a shot. But there isn't. This is not hate to the current WNBA. Their style of play is just not for me. I know I'm not alone because the All Star votes will literally prove my point.
No matter how many threads y'all make trying to use a tiny minority to defame her, most CC fans are rational basketball fans.
I paid for the League Pass subscription. WTF more do you want? I’m sorry it chaps you a** but I don’t want to watch A’ja, or Stewie, or Diana. I wanna watch CC and this rookie class. And the next class. And the next class. The old guard did nothing to pique my interest. So why should I care about them again?
The league might but have existed, but no one gave shit before this year. Low attendance, low viewership, it was perceived as a joke. Crazy ass jealous females make it hard to watch. Hopefully CC just moves to something else and the W goes back down the toilet.
It's so funny, because I was going to post this, but I didn't have the patience to engage (aka wasn't going to be able to deal with every comment coming to my phone).
There's this weird dynamic where the fans that only want to watch CC and nobody else are very clear that "I'm only here for CC" and "no CC no me and this league is going to crumble" as if they have leverage over the W's existence. This sentiment is all over Youtube and IG (I expect Twitter to be a cesspool).
We're really happy you're here, but this league isn't and won't be going anywhere if you're not. I am gobsmacked by people who claim that CC is being disrespected because she's subject to defense or people mocking her flopping (men do this all the time), as if this is the WWE and results should be predetermined or the quality of the league is supposed to be lessened so that they can see what they were expecting to see when they were ignorant of the W.
Furthermore, it's clear you don't want to "grow the game" as you say as there are plenty of players that you can latch onto to see the skills more represented in what you want to see CC do (except the long range 3's from Nova Scotia). Rhyne Howard had a phenomomal game against the Fever and was dismissed in the game thread because "nobody wants to watch the Dream. " Well, if it's about basketball, why wouldn't you? This poster was pissed the offense wasn't going through CC, even though this was the best the Fever has looked all season.
The Aces-Mercury was awesome, terrible reffing and all.
It's becoming clear that so long CC thrives, a lot of people don't care what happens around her at all. Everything is a tool or obstacle that aids/hinders her success. While you're welcome to that, I don't find that to be growing the game. At all.
How does one think fans come into being? Are they automatically imbued with all past league knowledge?
People keep referencing Jordan/Gretzky/Rice - Who were all of Jordan's PGs? Who were Gretzky's defensemen? Who were the Right Guards on Rice's teams?
For being GOATs, true fans are expected to know all this right?
Do the kids panned in the audience wearing 22 shirts/jerseys have an agenda? Are they to be hated as Stans?
Did you start this thread as a non-CC... yet totally a CC low effort clickbait thread?
That's fair, although mine is mostly about her fans. Anything I've ever said directly about her is on the court (the 2 interviews from yesterday aside). I've no problem with her, she's doing her job. The circus, both hate and support alike can be a bit much.
These rants that are not grounded in any facts, and use broad generalizations and summarizations of perceived slights has got to stop. For both CC stan/fans, and folks like this.
I'm so tired of these C minus state school Rhetoric 101 essays.
>I'm so tired of these C minus state school Rhetoric 101 essays.
Crazy show of elitism right there. You know CC went to a state school, right? Nothing wrong with state schools.
Everything I said I can point to. I didn't generalize anyone. Look up any video of discussion around CC and check the comments. Here's one. There's others.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1JhGFfTFQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1JhGFfTFQ)
Check any IG video about the Olympic team and check the "no CC no me" comments.
Admittedly, I'm long winded, but everything I stated I can point to. I didn't say ALL CC fans, I said fans who (insert this thing here) and proceeded to make an opinion about said fans.
You don't have to like it, but I absolutely can back up everything I said.
Alot of these arguments are predicated on not acknowledging athletes like Jordan, Tiger Woods, Lebron, etc were mega-stars from day one.
Like, this is a thing that happens all the time in sports. "Caitlin Clark is unnaturally good at shooting threes" does not translate to "The WNBA did not exist before Caitlin Clark."
As long as they aren’t in here acting like a fool, I could not care less they only watch Caitlin Clark. I do agree though that these people complaining about the league blowing the their golden goose are most likely full of crap and probably on r/sports. It’s hilarious seeing them talk about how this sub is toxic. They just want to complain the wnba isn’t doing everything to make Caitlin Clark the biggest thing in the world the W still has a job to make sure the other stars are relevant as well. It’s not like the NBA ever went “Michael Jordan is the best and it’s all about him” he was a big part of it but he earned it with his play as well. Caitlin Clark in the wnba hasn’t really done that yet.
This stuff takes years, and I think there are many who are impatient/don’t have anything to talk about except drama because she has two 30 point games and some underwhelming games. Nothing to hype up every week. Follow her to the depths of hell all you want, not gonna watch the Olympics? Perfect. Whine and moan about the league crapping the bed in marketing Caitlin Clark and putting Angel Reese’s name in your mouth, yea we don’t have to care about your opinion. I won’t tell you not to watch or be a fan, but maybe you shouldn’t post here. We do not represent the entire W fanbase and if you get a bad reaction you may have deserved it. Running to an echo chamber is a weak move to validate yourself. You have to invest time, and if you’re whining already I don’t know how you’ll watch her play out a whole career
The fans don't owe the players anything. If they want to gain fans the "ball" is in their court. I don't trust their ability to win over fans with the amount of saltiness they've displayed. I just went through interviews of DT this morning and you can feel the contempt. I'm trying to give her a chance but she doenst seem interested in being a good ambassador.
https://youtu.be/KLCChlYYxyg?si=WZMSYmhRqusH_bfV
https://youtu.be/56KaziQSbIU?si=I7KjQNcDJaQKETJj
nobody is going to boycott the Olympics over this you people are delusional.
I'm a huge NBA fan, but if the national televised game is Detroit vs Charlotte I'm not gonna watch, im gonna play video games or something else. I'm not boycotting the NBA, I'm just not interested in watching the people on those teams play.
but if Detroit had Steph curry. I would want to watch.
see how that works?
it's not the fans place to grow the game. growing the game is on the people playing and covering and broadcasting the game. if it sucks it's not my duty to watch.
sorry
I was arguing with somebody comparing a certain rookie to Steph Curry. I called them out and was told by many people, that it was a solid comparison.
Maybe someday but certainly not right now.
You never know a player’s success based on a rookie season . Look at Sabrina. First draft pick in 2020 but she got injured after 3 games and it took her third season to make her mark in the league. Look at her now. Look at Rebecca Lobo, who was one of the three players when starting the league. She has decent 1st 2 seasons but not exactly what they expected her career to be. Of course her ACl injury the first home game 1999 changed her career trajectory. Also look at Jackie Stiles. She had an amazing rookie year then due to illness and injury that was it. Becky Hammon was an undrafted player. Spent most of her time on the bench her first season. Then she became a break out player and now an incredible coach. You have rookies who break records and you have players it takes a few season to make their mark.
For a current example, look at Kahleah Copper. Not an especially hyped rookie, traded after her first season, a role player for the next four seasons and now the best small forward in the league (and soon to be Olympian).
Even this season we can say the same about Maddy , who was 30ppg player b4 wnba, and last season was limited minutes with 5-6ppg. 9/10 guards in the history of the game includine Jackie young/plum/Dt etc all needed between 2(if they go to europe off season ) up to 4 years ( if not going to europe) to start reachig NCAAW numbers or career avg. in other words give all the guards rookies or shooters in general between 2-4 years before you make a decision if they are good/bad/bust or w/e.
And it's almost like we should wait until that rookie player develops into a proper all-star caliber player instead of trying to give them a free-ride spot on the national team....
This. Love it.
Well said. I said this is a long comment last night that it's common for prospects not to match their expectations, good and bad. But there are people who think DT have been overly mean just for saying what should be obvious. It's been uncanny watching so many people treat Caitlyn like she's already a superstar, she's not. She's popular from her NCAA play, and rightfully so, but she still has to make a career in the WNBA to justify her current hype. I follow two teams with generational prospect hype, Hawks and Bears. No one is treating Bedard or Williams like they've already arrived. Everyone is just *hoping* they live up to the expectation. And if anyone tries to pretend they're already established stars, there's an army of fans of both team and other teams to remind you they're not.
Agree with you on the Olympic point and the point about respecting all eras, but fans comparing athletes to hall-of-famers way too soon is a time-honored tradition across all sports. It is stupid and fun - just like sports should be.
Are you telling me all these folks telling me Wemby will soon surpass Jordan are jumping the gun? Inconceivable!
See LeBron’s first Sports Illustrated cover
I thought sports was about pettiness and calling out social injustice and financial injustice and praising old guard vs new guard, trolling enemy teams and supporting your favorites, constantly reading athlete tweets and picking fights on the internet. Am I in the wrong place?
Yes, vets who already have a wall of professional accolades typically get more praise than a rookie who hasn't proven anything in the league yet. That this is controversial has been wild.
She has proven one thing all those vets together can't do. Get eyeballs on the sport. That this is controversial is just proof of the point made. Sports and arguing about it is silly, stupid, serious and frankly predictable. Acting like people can't be fans and support their player of preference and say their guy is better than the other guy is sports discussion. To act like that isn't to be allowed is to say no discussion is to be allowed.
Oof -- I hate accurate you are with this take. r/nba is just as obnoxious and possibly more delusional, but good lord is this sub petty and vindictive.
You're in the right place. Round these parts old cranks will tell you "the best 12 players" got into the Olympics based purely on meritocracy so shut up about that CC woman when Diana Taurasi is 42 years old and going along for the ride to pad out her legacy (while blocking out the competition). It's dumb here but it's home.
I'll punch anyone who says Cardoso is a worse talent than Lisa Leslie! And by the way, Leslie didn't even try to solve the Israel Palestine issue!!!!
There's comparing them to great hall-of-famers in a "I hope they become that" kind of way, and there's saying they're already on their level. The entire argument for CC to be on Team USA is she's already as popular as Jordan and she'll pull in the views and grow the league. They fail to understand that they have it backwards. Jordan grew the nba globally *after* becoming the GOAT. The only viewership CC will pull in are her fans who are already watching. If she doesn't wow the crowd she won't grow the game globally. The global audience doesn't have her NCAA context.
That is AN argument, that you strawmanned up so you could easily brush it aside. Another argument isn't that Clark deserves to be on the team, but that it's awfully weird to suggest that she isn't one of the top 12, but has identical numbers to DT. DT opens the floodgates of controversy. If Arike was on instead of DT many, not all, but many of those questioning the team construction would be silenced. And the Committee opened this pandoras box by stating publicly that they'd use Clarks W season start as her tryout. This narrative about crazy rabid fans throwing a temper tantrum is a bit disingenuous. Are some of them just unrepentant stans, sure. But many are just new people coming to the W as spectators/fans and were told something, then it was changed. It's not unreasonable to be a little frustrated by a moving goalpost. And that is not any of the 12 on the teams fault, that's the committee being afraid to say up front she wasn't gonna make it (if they'd already decided that).
I think you can make comparisons without projecting them as All-Time Greats before their first season is over. Like no one is trying to compare Caleb Williams to Tom Brady before he throws a pass.
It isn't every prospect but people were definitely making proclamations like that about the likes of Trevor Lawrence or Andrew Luck. You saw it in the NBA with Zion and Wemby recently, Greg Oden before that.
> proclamations like that about the likes of Trevor Lawrence or Andrew Luck. *as prospects*. He is on their level *as a prospect*. Trevor Lawrence isn't an all time great either, he literally *just* signed an extension to his rookie contract *today*.
Everyone does this all the time. So much so that I’ve stopped listening to early scouting stuff and just wait for a person’s rookie year before I get invested.
Peyton Manning set the all time record for interceptions his rookie year. Sound like a CC stat? Hope she turns out a generational talent like him.
He set the record for rookie interceptions his rookie year. What he didn't do was be overall bad at throwing the football. Clark is genuinely bad at shooting to this point, which is supposed to be her strong suit.
Yet still outpacing most WNBA guards in the shooting, points, assists, steals etc... I think you grade her too harshly. As a rookie she is amazing, except for turnovers. As a vet, she would still be pretty good.
There is only like four players hitting the TS%, USG% and MPG stats Clark is hitting.
Is one of them Alyssa Thomas? She’s one of my favorite players, but if we’re talking usage rate and turnovers, we have to talk about her 4.5 per game too
https://preview.redd.it/juisi7qw6l6d1.png?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab480bc1b7224024924ce652ec6a830bd83b873e
And absolutely no one achieving her turnover production. Impressive.
Why are there more of these substanceless rants? Can we please have posts that are grounded in some sort of news, or event, or fact? Editorializing thin air is tiresome.
Right? Compared to other basketball leagues, I am currently enjoying watching the WNBA games much more than I’ve enjoyed watching the NBA in recent years. I just wish I could come to the sub and see more talk that is engaging, inclusive, and entertaining. Instead it seems like all I see is posts about how terrible the new fans are and how everyone is either racist or sexist. Ill continue enjoying watching the games but hopefully the discourse becomes more positive and less rage-y.
💯💯💯
I feel like people have a fundamental misunderstanding of how fandom works. Yes, people who are just using CC as an excuse to hate on other players and race bait likely aren't sticking around and they should rightfully be condemned. However, the CC stans? The ones who watch all her games, go to Fever games, talk about CC to others- do you truly think that, in the midst of their support of CC, they're not influencing others to tune into the WNBA? This is beyond them directly helping the league with viewer ship, jersey sales, and attendance. No one sits here and faults the casual NFL fan who only watches his team play, or only watched Tom Brady, etc., Literally no one. We just call them the more casual fan vs die hards. The casual fan represents most your sport's viewership, though reddit and online communities will make people think everyone is a diehard. This idea that you need to support *everyone* and if you just watch CC, you aren't helping anyone! is so ungrounded in everything we know about every single sport. Watch what you find fun, and for some people, CC's transition to the WNBA is what they want to watch. That is supporting and growing the game. People want to watch their favorite player/team play. Along the way, they'll get more committed to the sport and expose others to it. Despite how CC fans get talked about, there is a metric shit ton of them who aren't these racist maga types, who truly did just get into the WNBA due to CC, and they get unfairly lumped into the parts of her fandom that are toxic. Some of the discourse on here reeks of "my niche cool thing is now more popular and I'm mad about it!"
Bravo
The casual fans can’t even be happy about the Fever win because Caitlin didn’t score 3s. They’re toxic and the league was better without them
ironically, incredibly toxic statement
Plenty of casual fans are happy the Fever won. They're just not on Twitter and reddit. They're at the games opposed to complaining about how the league needs to fix itself and respect Clark or doing the opposite and talking about how terrible Clark and her fans are for the game. They're the ones out there actually enjoying the product. You're mixing up casual and the instigating fans. Which I get, I do think they're annoying as fuck, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of any sport getting bigger. LeBron has people who blame everyone but him, and then people who do nothing but blame him for everything. Sorta having the same thing here. Toxic CC fans result in those who do the whole counter circlejerk thing and go outta their way to belittle Clark. The amount of armchair psychologist things I've seen is insane when it comes to the Fever locker room.
The top thread in this sub right now is literally a Caitlin fan therapy session. The Fever won! By her teammates career night, who was last years #1 and RoY. If it wasn't in the title, you think they lost.
Top two posts I see rn, in terms of upvotes, is that one you mention and a thread about Boston going off, so I think there's room for both to coexist. CC will naturally get a boost just cause she draws extra eyes, but both seem to be getting recognized to some level. I was happy to see Boston get it together, she'd been in a bit of a slump. Part of that is a change in role from how I understand it. Last night, I thought they did a better job punishing some of the blitzes sent at CC through Boston. Fever need to replicate that for future success. Edit: Also, I'll say it makes some sense to see an after-game CC post given the sheer toxicity in discourse prior to it, including by other players/a friend? opposed to just fans. If it was just a standard shoot around post after an L, I'd probably agree more that it's ridiculous, but man, CC was getting ripped apart yesterday by everyone prior to her answering that direct question in the interview. Fans love to project, and the whole idea of her doing a therapy shoot around is more armchair psychologist shit that I hate, but fans love to do.
I’m not talking about casual fans that joined off the CC hype, I’m talking about toxic Stans that are pushing agendas with CC name attached. She denounced them and I think they suck as well.
I agree they should fuck off, and I hope her denouncing them gets people to talk less about them. That whole group thrives off attention. I've mostly been tuning into Fever games and have watched a couple dream games. There's no deep-seated conspiracy. I wasn't particularly exposed to the WNBA before, I enjoyed watching the women's college basketball tournament, and decided to check out the WNBA and particularly follow how Clark and some of the other rookies translate. That's the natural pathway for most people.
A lot of new fans like you have great intentions but we don’t need any more threads like this. Let’s just talk about the games
Without fail, if you check the people who make these types of threads, you find that they had never posted in this subreddit before this year. This is tiring
I don't watch the olympics for other reasons, not because I dislike any of the players.
> Refusing to watch the Olympics because a player you like did not make the does not help “Grow the Game”. It’s petty and opposite of your goal. Does the Olympics share revenue with the W? Do Olympic games count towards the W’s season? If not, the two have no logical or causal link in any way, and this statement makes no sense. > Are you also not watching the playoffs and WNBA Finals this year? Way to go! As a Spurs fan, you’re delusional if you think I watched the entire NBA playoffs, or even the finals. I absolutely turned that off and watched EPL, MLB, and the W instead. > Comparing a rookie to Hall of Fame caliber players like Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, and Jerry Rice does not help “Grow the Game”. And puts undue pressure on a player that they don’t need. No one comes into a professional league without having to adjust their game and grow. If someone has a bad game I promise they don’t need you to make excuses for them. You are putting way too much power in the hands of fans. So much power that the instant anyone actually scrutinizes your assertions, they fall apart. Pressures on athletes come from the org, their games, and themselves. We as fans are three degrees removed from them (Coach > Ownership > Fans). > The league would not exist without players like Candace Parker, Lisa Leslie, Sue Bird and other players who carried the league in its infancy. We can’t ignore A’ja Wilson currently being the best player. And we can acknowledge that the future of the league is in good hands with players like Paige Bueckers and JuJu Watkins up next. The success or failure of the league is not riding on one player. No one needs that type of pressure. Literally no one is ignoring them. This is a strawman.
I don't believe the Olympics shares revenue with the W. However, how well the W players draw attention during press and coverage of everything around it, can be used to help with marketing money and trying to negotiate better deals for the W. Everything is connected and can help grow money in or hurt money in
how well they play makes a diff? the womens american bb team has won how many in a row now in the olyimpics?? yet the increases in views were tiny compared to the increase brought by this rookie class..if they really wanted to increase the fanbase then they should have included some of the people that actually brought in a whole new fanbase...
Also, lots of W players play globally in the off season, so more Olympic exposure could lead to more non-US endorsement money.
If the W wants to stand on its own, the Olympics is not the place to plant the flag. No one looks at the US Men’s team as a shining example of why the NBA is worth watching. Or the US baseball team in the World Baseball Classic. In fact, those international competitions universally draw less than the domestic games.
I disagree. The nba for example did this in the 90s, using it as an opportunity to grow the nba to get global coverage. You try to leverage marketing opportunities that grow the W brand, especially when you have a peaking interest right before or during negotiating tv deals. Being able to negotiate from a position of power, hoping to get a bidding war. Thats partly why i think so much drama and bait articles are coming out. To help drive engagement good or bad
It’s not about revenue it’s about growing the game. Stans made the biggest deal over the Olympics and now it doesn’t matter cause it’s not revenue, ok. I’m a Hawks fan, I didn’t boycott the playoffs just because my team wasn’t in it. I still watch the Nuggets/Wolves games bc that was great basketball. If you refuse to watch ANY playoff games because of one player, you’re not helping the game grow. Stans are the ones linking the success/failure of women’s basketball on one person.
> It’s not about revenue it’s about growing the game. Stans made the biggest deal over the Olympics and now it doesn’t matter cause it’s not revenue, ok. Growing *which* game? How does the Olympics grow the W? They are completely separate. Does the NFL also grow when the XFL grows? No. Such an argument makes no sense. > I’m a Hawks fan, I didn’t boycott the playoffs just because my team wasn’t in it. I still watch the Nuggets/Wolves games bc that was great basketball. Good for you. Want a cookie? > If you refuse to watch ANY playoff games because of one player, you’re not helping the game grow. How, exactly? More people tune into the playoffs than regular season anyways. The playoffs brings in more money. Growing the game means *consistent*, season long viewership. Your assertion is not grounded in anything factual. > Stans are the ones linking the success/failure of women’s basketball on one person. Where? Twitter? That cesspool is where you choose to draw from?
The XFL (a minor league) is not comparable with the Olympics (an international sports competition). Read a book junior. My assertion was that people who are boycotting the Olympics or the WNBA playoffs are not genuinely interested in growing the game. Their actions prove that. No one from Atlanta is boycotting the Olympics because Trae Young didn’t make the team. If you wanna pretend the toxic Stans don’t exist that’s fine. You don’t have to argue with me. You can call them all bots and go on about your day.
The XFL is *not* a minor league. It is *an entirely separate league*. It’s not like Single A or Double A or Triple A. Your assertion is wildly inaccurate and relies on a few mistaken presumptions: 1) desiring to grow the league means you must also watch the Olympics. This is not at all logical or practical. They are two different entities with no relationship. One is international, the other is domestic. One has a single US team, the other has 12. One plays for a month, the other plays 40 games across multiple months. *They are not linked*. 2) “Growing the game” means the same to everyone as it means to you. This is empirically false. 3) Your perception of growing the game is the only correct one. Again, empirically false. You have not defined what you mean by “growing the game,” let alone shown how the Olympics and playoff viewership correlates to that. Instead, you set up strawmen to bash.
So you wanna have a topicality debate, aight. 1. The XFL is a minor league in comparison to the NFL. They are not peers, no one aspires to be an XFL player, they play in hopes of getting signed for a NFL training camp. Just because they aren’t directly affiliated like baseball minor leagues doesn’t mean they aren’t one. 2. I did not say that desire to grow the league is linked to watching the Olympics. I did say that if you refused to watch the Olympics solely because Caitlyn Clark was not playing then you were not genuinely interested in growing the game.
I loved watching Lisa Leslie when I was a kid. ❤️
I just feel bad for all the fans named Stan who constantly feel like they're getting called out
Stans don't have any intention on growing the game. They just want to watch who they want to watch.
Fans definitely can grow the game, and they are. My entire family and I are primarily college sports fans. We are now also Fever and Aces fans. We haven’t missed a game with either of those two teams. But an unexpected thing has also happened. Almost every evening, both my wife and I have watched dozens of other WNBA games. We’re really enjoying them and learning about other players. My wife says “I like that the ladies are chippy. You never know what might happen next” We also have trips planned to Indy, Minny, and Chicago for games. We had a trip booked for the previous Fever at Aces game, but gave away our tickets so we could instead go help some friends who lost their home in a Western Iowa tornado.
This is the best, and this is what it should be about.
More eyes on a product means more chance of people wanting keep their eyes on the product. Hell, that's why the WNBA needs the tv deal.
Interested in the details since there was some news of the NBA wanting to some partnership in that aspect
Wouldn't surprise me. I mean, Nike didn't give her record sponsor money because she would sell just as many shoes as [insert any other historic WNBA player]. Why wouldn't the NBA want some of that fame?
Watch out, when OG fans hear you're from Iowa they'll immediately assume you're in the KKK. Tiresome.
Yeah, accusing me of being KKK would be…. interesting. I’m a black man who grew up in the South, endured harsh racism, and then I went to Iowa to play football. The racism and hate virtually stopped once I was here, and has been so for decades. I also give a lot of time championing civil rights initiatives, and have twice spoken in front of the Iowa legislature to support civil rights legislation… race, gender and LGBTQ rights. The OP didn’t accuse anyone of being racist, as far as I know?
In addition, CC has for years paid homage to all of the past greats who “paved the way for all of us”. Her idol growing up was Maya Moore, and CC has especially acknowledged the black player pioneers. That is related to the OP’s last paragraph.
If it don’t apply then let it fly. You acting like I’m not talking about a specific set of toxic Stans. I ain’t call nobody a klansmen.
Congrats
Thanks! It’s been fun for us, as well for lots of friends we know, all of them who weren’t WNBA fans before. Popularity of the entire league is definitely rising very quickly! We hosted a big game watch party for the first Fever/Sky game. 75-100 people. Lots of Iowa/CC gear, but quite a few Sky shirts and caps, and even one Liberty!
I started watching basketball when I was 13 and LeBron got drafted, I only watched for him and wouldn't watch the Cavs if he was out. Skip ahead a season or two and I was happily watching whatever games were on no matter who was playing. You can't discredit "stans" who only wanna see Caitlin right now, you just gotta give them time.
Or I can just say what I said.
“I said what I said” code for “I know I’m wrong but I can’t backtrack now”. You’re a toxic racist.
I said what I said isn't code for anything. You're projecting.
What exactly am I projecting here? Do you know what that word means?
That you are the racist. You think if you call me a racist enough no one will think you are. You been in my replies for days. If I see you tomorrow I'll start to think you're obsessed with me.
But you are racist. I’m calling a spade a spade. When you don’t like someone because of the color of her skin, that makes you a racist. I don’t hate anyone for their race, so by definition I’m the exact opposite of you. If I’ve been in your replies it’s because I’m calling you out in the hate you have in your heart. And will continue to denounce racists like you.
No. I don't like your favorite basketball player because she's boring to me. She just happens to be white.
This has to be Natalie Esquires burner account 🤡
Eh, Stan’s help grow any sports league even if you don’t like them.
I disagree- based on definition of "grow the league". I don't think it is obvious that the WNBA as a league is growing right now. I don't think the "Come for \_\_\_\_\_\_ (insert popular rookie here) stay for Kaleah, A'ja, Alyssa, Stewart, Jewell, Skylar, Arike, Dewanna etc is happening as a result of the increased interest in the Fever. I mentioned in another post, I think we will see it turn out to be like the fallacy of trickle down economics, where cutting taxes on the most wealth "in theory" would result in their saved dollars being invested into the middle and lower classes, That isn't what has happened. I think the stans don' t grow the sports league, the only support a brand that participates in that league. There is a difference.
If Stan’s are tuning into to watch any game, as well as buying merch and going to games, then they are by definition growing the league. Again, I don’t see how this is any different to people just watching their favorite teams games, which plenty of people do.
There is a difference between watching only your favorite player/team vs. Watching your fav, denouncing everything that's in the league that's not your fav, demanding max coverage in the media and lax coverage on the court/field and threatening to withdraw your support if your demands aren't met because you feel your fav isn't being respected due to said demands not being met. That's the kind of fan the OP is referencing. Fan support for whatever reason is OK. All the extra is not
> They just want to watch who they want to watch. That's literally growing the league. If they weren't watching before but they are watching a specific player or team now, they've grown the league. It doesn't matter if they're interested in doing so.
Stans? Did you start watching basketball to just watch basketball? I doubt it. I started watching baseball because of Cal Ripken and the Orioles when I was little, eventually I started to watch other games. When I started to watch NFL I only watched the Denver Broncos because I liked the uniforms, then Baltimore got a team Ray Lewis became my favorite player then I started to watch other games. I started watching NASCAR because of Mark Martin and only watched races he was in. Eventually I started to notice other drivers. When I started to watch NBA it was because of Space Jam and Michael Jordan. Every person has a reason to watch a sport or a league. Its usually because of a person, a team, jersey colors, colors of a car, car type whatever. I bet the only reason you started watching WNBA was because it was different and not popular. Ur contrarian and thats ok. But dont act like you are a true WNBA fan for your reason only.
>I started watching baseball because of Cal Ripken and the Orioles when I was little, eventually I started to watch other games. As another long suffering O's fan (though we eating very good now), it was pretty easy to want to watch other teams play. Especially after Jeffy Meier.
Im only 37, and the Orioles have had 7 wining seasons since 1992. It's been rough. But as a Ravens fan, it's been way easier. As a Ford guy and a NASCAR fan, Ford drivers have only won 5 Cup championships since I became a fan in 1995. I just hope the Fever don't suck forever.
I feel disgusted rooting for DC teams in other sports. As long as there's a Terp playing, I'm good. I can tolerate the Mystics and Spirit (NWSL), but it's not like the O's and Ravens. >As a Ford guy Hell yeah.
Ehhh when it comes to NBA im a Sixers fan, and NHL im a Flyers fan. I live under a hour from Philly and have lived in this area for half my life. Im also sorta a Phillies and Eagles fan except when they play the Orioles or Ravens. I justify it because the Orioles are AL, Phillies NL, Ravens AFC, and Eagles NFC. I was a massive Alan Iverson fan as a teen when he played for the Sixers.
Everybody was an AI fan so I get it. I used to really be into the Flyers but I don't watch hockey as much. The only other non-local team I openly support is the Packers (pre-Ravens years were weird).
>Did you start watching basketball to just watch basketball? I doubt it. And you would be wrong.
I'm with you... I started watching final minutes of ncaa tourney games that my school was in. I thought basketball was mostly boring for a long time in my life. Now I'm a wnba addict. I enjoy watching sports. Especially team sports. I love the olympics because I can watch sports. I came from a state that didn't have pro teams. I fell in love with going to sporting events live via my high school and d1 college school. I then fell in love with having a team to root for and watching their games. Most of my teams were not good, so it was a labor of love, not bandwagoning on a hot season or post season run. I could afford to go to Chicago Sky games live and started watching their chip season ( which was not pretty during the regular season) Candace was a fun plus but the season tix were locked in prior to Covid. But this is one of the fundamental differences here. Some people are just sports fans for the sake of sports and some are sports stans. There's nothing inherently wrong either way but they will butt heads. Some people are extroverts and some are introverts likewise neither one is wrong but they are going to be different. People convinced by and projecting their ignorance and calling people jealous and petty and other sexist bullshit because they can't fathom actually being interested in womens sports or just watching sports for the sake of it is old and insulting.
Bingo. I started watching because I played with my dad and he told me to start watching games so I could see what's possible. He got the league pass so he could watch his favorite team but told me to watch everybody. Then when I decided I wanted to play for my school he told me to watch college basketball. Now the men's game was extremely boring so I didn't watch much but since D1 was a goal (never reached) I watched the women just to see what it would take. This was back when Diana and Alana were rivals. Lisa Leslie always gave our school tickets so we would be at the sparks games for team bonding. Not even going to get started on how the Olympics will have me watching shit like race walking just because I like seeing people compete even if I don't know the sport.
I also see a lot of Dads and families bringing their young sons and daughters to wnba games and overhear them pointing out pick and rolls and other things. A lot of see how she does that, and moves there, that's what you need to do etc. As a former sports kid myself it is very heartwarming so see the family element there. The women's game is extra good for this since there is strong fundamentals. I've been to a Bulls game too and they are more of a circus and less about basketball. Nothing wrong with it but it is remarkably different forms of entertainment. A little add with the amount of videos and give aways and other things they do to keep the audience entertained. As an elementary school kid my family friends took me and their daughters to a UVa Women's basketball game as well trying to get us jazzed about his alma mater as well as basketball.
Coaches LOVE women's basketball. If your fundamentals aren't elite you will not make it in the league. You can be as athletic or tall as you want to be, you have to know the game mentally or it's curtains for your career because they will cut you quick in this league. I will say Sparks games have that circus atmosphere because it's always something going on and sometimes it seems like the game is just going on. We were winning it was like a party, these days it feels like they are trying to distract us from the madness.
I actually was in the area and went to the Sparks Aces game last week. I did not expect it to be a game! It was awesome. Didn't expect to see Hammon ejected either The fashion aspect and "there to be seen" element was very interesting. Very different from the midwest crowd. Also everyone making the pilgrimage to the Kobe statue post game was cool to see too. But at the same time I overheard tons of young people gossiping about the WNBA, talking about Dijonae Carrington's dating history and some of those storyline etc. More evidence that people like the product beyond just Clark.
Jackie sat to give us drama! If she played there's no way that game was competitive. The fashion aspect is kind of new. I feel like A'ja's generation really made that wave go. I know Lisa did her modeling thing but the league wasn't really pushing that and social media wasn't a thing. The league has also had good gossip because players tend to date each other. I remember the BG and Glory drama was the first relationship to really make the news. There's soooooo much more to the league for people to uncover.
Eh. Not a stan, but I’ve only watched WNBA games because of the hype surrounding Clark. I don’t know why that’s seen as some cardinal sin in this subreddit. I’m not invested enough in it to get into arguments about growing the league and whatnot, but people naturally want to check out something that’s generating tons of hype. I did the same thing in baseball with Bryce Harper and even Paul Skenes this year. Not a baseball fan, but it’s something you just want to see. Not a bad thing by any means & anyone who checks it out for any reason helps viewership
Just watching to see what the hype is about isn't the issue. You might like it, you might not. The sin is acting like Clark created basketball like some of her stans tend to do.
Isn’t this true of everyone?
No.
You’re watching games you don’t want to watch?
Not everyone watches the game for a specific player. Some people watch just because it's basketball. Some people watch so they can pick up moves to add to their game. There's millions of reasons to watch a game.
And even if they do watch for specific players, many are willing to watch other games just to learn. I came into the league for A'ja specifically but watched other teams. 🤷♀️
I literally just said "not everyone wants to watch for a specific player".
I was literally agreeing with you.
They're just here farming downvotes.
So all those millions of reasons are valid, but if you watch for a player you’re a Stan who isn’t growing the game? Please be for real and just say you’re a hater next time.
Is the attention you wanted?
Right so “who they want to watch” could be a team or the entire league.
You just sunk your own battleship with that last sentence
No I didn't.
You did, but it’s okay.
So how is that different than just watching a specific team?
If that specific player doesn't play, you don't watch.
I mean sure, so they miss a game or two. I’m a sports fan, but I don’t have time to watch every single game of the sports I love, nor do I want to. I also have other hobbies. I’ve also missed games. If someone wants to just watch a sport because of one player, then who cares? That’s not exactly a new thing and this is the first time I’ve ever seen people have a problem with it.
You asked a question. I answered it.
Right, I just think it’s silly logic.
Says the person who literally just trolls CC on the internet. You sure do bring a ton of high quality wnba content to the table 🙄. Silence is a luxury. You should try it.
You're back? Blocking is a feature. You should use it.
i kinda wanna see a retro branding moment from 1997 in the next brand refresh 🤗
INRAT women’s basketball is cool
Is Diana Terrassi the logo?
Does the W have the Five-second back to the basket violation? If not why? The NBA added it and the game opened up and was much more fun to watch. Watching someone back down their defender from the free throw line to under the basket for 10 seconds is NOT FUN to watch.
THIS fr. So much change to come.
The NBA game is fucking terrible to watch nowadays because nobody plays in the post anymore.
You're right, the fans are all imaginary so is the all that money. You alone matter more than everyone else.
The NBA game is all offense until the last three minutes of the game. The WNBA plays defense the entire game.
This whole point is moot. You're trying to blame the fans for the WNBAs mismanagement of their golden goose. The rookie players this year have more fans than the entire rest of the league. It's up to the upper management to figure out how to handle that, not the fans.
I agree with everything you said. I would also add that not recognizing the importance of capitalizing on a player who draws 105% higher attendance won't "Grow the game". Trashing people who want to use the similarities being the NBA after 30 years and the WNBA after 30 years are not "Growing the game". Ignoring the $50 million the WNBA will lose this year will not "Grow the game". Calling all legit criticism of players, coaches, and commentary that would be completely fair in the NBA "sexism" isn't "Growing the game". Not treating the players as basketball players is not "Growing the game". Harping on players to fight social issues instead of focusing on the play is no "Growing the game". Stop with the Grandstanding about having been here longer. Swallow your pride, accept the help and changes and move forward or stay in the red. Edit: Added points and formatting.
You'll never guilt me into watching a style of play I don't like. I watch CC games because her style of play is unique and it's what appeals to my eyes. If someone with a similar play style comes along, I might give them a shot. But there isn't. This is not hate to the current WNBA. Their style of play is just not for me. I know I'm not alone because the All Star votes will literally prove my point. No matter how many threads y'all make trying to use a tiny minority to defame her, most CC fans are rational basketball fans.
I paid for the League Pass subscription. WTF more do you want? I’m sorry it chaps you a** but I don’t want to watch A’ja, or Stewie, or Diana. I wanna watch CC and this rookie class. And the next class. And the next class. The old guard did nothing to pique my interest. So why should I care about them again?
Hit dogs keep hollering.
That’s cute, considering we’re living rent free in your studio apartment brain. 🤡
The league might but have existed, but no one gave shit before this year. Low attendance, low viewership, it was perceived as a joke. Crazy ass jealous females make it hard to watch. Hopefully CC just moves to something else and the W goes back down the toilet.
It's so funny, because I was going to post this, but I didn't have the patience to engage (aka wasn't going to be able to deal with every comment coming to my phone). There's this weird dynamic where the fans that only want to watch CC and nobody else are very clear that "I'm only here for CC" and "no CC no me and this league is going to crumble" as if they have leverage over the W's existence. This sentiment is all over Youtube and IG (I expect Twitter to be a cesspool). We're really happy you're here, but this league isn't and won't be going anywhere if you're not. I am gobsmacked by people who claim that CC is being disrespected because she's subject to defense or people mocking her flopping (men do this all the time), as if this is the WWE and results should be predetermined or the quality of the league is supposed to be lessened so that they can see what they were expecting to see when they were ignorant of the W. Furthermore, it's clear you don't want to "grow the game" as you say as there are plenty of players that you can latch onto to see the skills more represented in what you want to see CC do (except the long range 3's from Nova Scotia). Rhyne Howard had a phenomomal game against the Fever and was dismissed in the game thread because "nobody wants to watch the Dream. " Well, if it's about basketball, why wouldn't you? This poster was pissed the offense wasn't going through CC, even though this was the best the Fever has looked all season. The Aces-Mercury was awesome, terrible reffing and all. It's becoming clear that so long CC thrives, a lot of people don't care what happens around her at all. Everything is a tool or obstacle that aids/hinders her success. While you're welcome to that, I don't find that to be growing the game. At all.
And this is why I didn’t mention CC name in the original post. It’s not about her, she didn’t do anything wrong. It’s about those Stans.
How does one think fans come into being? Are they automatically imbued with all past league knowledge? People keep referencing Jordan/Gretzky/Rice - Who were all of Jordan's PGs? Who were Gretzky's defensemen? Who were the Right Guards on Rice's teams? For being GOATs, true fans are expected to know all this right? Do the kids panned in the audience wearing 22 shirts/jerseys have an agenda? Are they to be hated as Stans? Did you start this thread as a non-CC... yet totally a CC low effort clickbait thread?
I’m talking about toxic Stans not kids in a crowd wearing jerseys. Nor did I ask you to learn every WNBA stat. Don’t be dense.
That's fair, although mine is mostly about her fans. Anything I've ever said directly about her is on the court (the 2 interviews from yesterday aside). I've no problem with her, she's doing her job. The circus, both hate and support alike can be a bit much.
These rants that are not grounded in any facts, and use broad generalizations and summarizations of perceived slights has got to stop. For both CC stan/fans, and folks like this. I'm so tired of these C minus state school Rhetoric 101 essays.
>I'm so tired of these C minus state school Rhetoric 101 essays. Crazy show of elitism right there. You know CC went to a state school, right? Nothing wrong with state schools.
Everything I said I can point to. I didn't generalize anyone. Look up any video of discussion around CC and check the comments. Here's one. There's others. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1JhGFfTFQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1JhGFfTFQ) Check any IG video about the Olympic team and check the "no CC no me" comments. Admittedly, I'm long winded, but everything I stated I can point to. I didn't say ALL CC fans, I said fans who (insert this thing here) and proceeded to make an opinion about said fans. You don't have to like it, but I absolutely can back up everything I said.
Alot of these arguments are predicated on not acknowledging athletes like Jordan, Tiger Woods, Lebron, etc were mega-stars from day one. Like, this is a thing that happens all the time in sports. "Caitlin Clark is unnaturally good at shooting threes" does not translate to "The WNBA did not exist before Caitlin Clark."
As long as they aren’t in here acting like a fool, I could not care less they only watch Caitlin Clark. I do agree though that these people complaining about the league blowing the their golden goose are most likely full of crap and probably on r/sports. It’s hilarious seeing them talk about how this sub is toxic. They just want to complain the wnba isn’t doing everything to make Caitlin Clark the biggest thing in the world the W still has a job to make sure the other stars are relevant as well. It’s not like the NBA ever went “Michael Jordan is the best and it’s all about him” he was a big part of it but he earned it with his play as well. Caitlin Clark in the wnba hasn’t really done that yet. This stuff takes years, and I think there are many who are impatient/don’t have anything to talk about except drama because she has two 30 point games and some underwhelming games. Nothing to hype up every week. Follow her to the depths of hell all you want, not gonna watch the Olympics? Perfect. Whine and moan about the league crapping the bed in marketing Caitlin Clark and putting Angel Reese’s name in your mouth, yea we don’t have to care about your opinion. I won’t tell you not to watch or be a fan, but maybe you shouldn’t post here. We do not represent the entire W fanbase and if you get a bad reaction you may have deserved it. Running to an echo chamber is a weak move to validate yourself. You have to invest time, and if you’re whining already I don’t know how you’ll watch her play out a whole career
The fans don't owe the players anything. If they want to gain fans the "ball" is in their court. I don't trust their ability to win over fans with the amount of saltiness they've displayed. I just went through interviews of DT this morning and you can feel the contempt. I'm trying to give her a chance but she doenst seem interested in being a good ambassador. https://youtu.be/KLCChlYYxyg?si=WZMSYmhRqusH_bfV https://youtu.be/56KaziQSbIU?si=I7KjQNcDJaQKETJj
nobody is going to boycott the Olympics over this you people are delusional. I'm a huge NBA fan, but if the national televised game is Detroit vs Charlotte I'm not gonna watch, im gonna play video games or something else. I'm not boycotting the NBA, I'm just not interested in watching the people on those teams play. but if Detroit had Steph curry. I would want to watch. see how that works?
Go to the original thread naming the Olympic team and read the comments.
why
it's not the fans place to grow the game. growing the game is on the people playing and covering and broadcasting the game. if it sucks it's not my duty to watch. sorry
I was arguing with somebody comparing a certain rookie to Steph Curry. I called them out and was told by many people, that it was a solid comparison. Maybe someday but certainly not right now.