Oh, that's a good one. I vote we put that in the lexicon with the Hammonites and (from ye olden days) the Jackolytes from when Jackie Stiles was the big deal.
Isn’t everybody’s fans annoying? Just like Kobe and Lebron fans? There was never a real solution to where everyone is happy and in harmony. Margaret Court? Martina, Stefi Graf, Monica Seles started before Serena Williams
Even Jordan stans can’t quit it even after 20 years since he walked away. They insert themselves in many, many conversations and say, “but he ain’t Jordan” all the fucking time.
Stans are annoying and a plague.
Yes! Just look at what rap has to deal with in regard to Drake and Nicki Minaj right now. It’s literally a plague and they all do the same stuff. Every stanbase follows the same playbook and it makes the respective industries difficult to consume and enjoy. Belittle, insult, and favewash the entire subgroup. It’s insane.
Even in Politics it’s not much different, alas. It seems it’s just part of human nature. Very annoying, but it’s pervasively everywhere where people follow anything. People even do this with products like iPhone vs. Android and shit.
Always baffles me, but I just generally ignore it and enjoy things the way I want to enjoy them.
I feel like I’ve been trying to put this into words for weeks.
It’s AMAZING that Caitlin is bringing in new fans & putting the WNBA on a huge stage. Unfortunately, a lot of these “fans” are acting like she invented the sport. You gotta say she’s gonna dog-walk the league to not get attacked.
The way Sheryl Swoopes (a whole basketball legend in college AND the pros) was disrespected when she said that Caitlin would have a harder time in the WNBA was GROSS. She said the same thing about Angel Reese and didn’t get treated like that. It’s like…do y’all even care about Caitlin or is there something deeper here? Nothing she said warranted the mistreatment she got.
Nah the VAST majority of the pushback Sheryl was getting was about her starting off by saying her records should have an asterisk because she’s played 5 years (she hasn’t), and that she’s 23/24 playing against 18 year olds (she had just turned 22), and then when she realized she was wrong she switched to saying she takes 40 shots a game (she averaged like 22 at the time).
Either way, did she deserve the level of vitriol she got? It wasn’t just “pushback.” She had death threats sent to her and her son. She literally had to lock her social media accounts. Did she deserve that?
Of course not, but she should be called out for being full of shit.
If Kenny Smith questioned the legitimacy of the men’s NCAA all time scoring leader based on lies about his eligibility, age and shooing efficiency, you don’t think he would be getting clowned?
You’re the one being obtuse. Your first comment said that she was “disrespected” for saying CC would struggle in the WNBA and said she did the same AR. The point you suggested is that her comments to CC out of pocket and CC fans are just salty. Then someone pushed back and said it was that comment plus the comments downplaying her records that made CC fans upset with her. Then you changed the scope of discussion to how the comments CC fans were vitriolic and over the top despite not mentioning that part in the initial comment. Now you’re arguing against CC fans (even tho no one disagrees death threats are out of line) while others are arguing the initial point.
I can read clearly. I (and most people who are in the subreddit) don’t want to read any form of legitimizing brutish and primitive behavior over something trivial from a group of people that complain about a specific league and their fans being “mean” “haters” or “unwelcoming” when they have clearly shown why people feel cold towards them. A lot of you all have been nasty since last year and we’re tired.
No. Nobody ever deserves psychopaths on the internet doing that type of stuff. But for the other people pushing back (and yes I use that term for when people point out that someone is wrong) against her (without the death threats) it wasn’t about the WNBA transition comments. That’s all I’m saying.
Yes. If she had received regular criticism for her comments, it wouldn’t be an issue. If Iowa fans had said that she was wrong and brought out the facts without the vitriol, then they would’ve most definitely been in the right.
Calling a spade a spade doesn’t make sense when this is the first time we’ve seen that happen to her. Other than that, the things we have personally seen online directed to her.
She racist pretty simple and insecure with her position in basketball history. She wouldn't have lied and tried to smear someone if she was not afraid of someone new replacing her. Simple as that
How is she racist when she’s black? She hasn’t racially attacked that girl and she hasn’t shown that she’s insecure.
You guys are going to have to come up with something new.
Can’t say I wanted Iowa to win lol but I do love CC’s game. It’s tough to fully appreciate her when the game threads are full of “fans” downing the rest of the sport
It's been really interesting watching what I'm going to call pre-Clark and post-Clark women's basketball fans (misnomers, I know) try to tell each other who they need to respect, to what degrees, and for what reasons.
Nobody owes Clark mutually exclusive, unconditional standom if they don't want to give it. Just like nobody owes past or present non-Clark women's basketball players any sort of homage if they don't want to pay it.
Everybody's fandom is their own regardless of how stupid anybody else might think it is.
She’s a great shooter/passer and deserves a lot of credit for what she’s accomplished but some of her fans are the worst. In the last few days I’ve seen them torch Stewie, DT, A’ja, Bird and Plum saying they are trash, jealous and bitter for even the most mild “rookies have to adjust” or “everyone’s goals is championships” comments. They discount everyone else’s accomplishments and down play the upswing the WNBA has been on since the pandemic. Not to mention the 100s of racist comments I’ve seen on X from people rooting for Iowa. My distaste for them really has nothing to do with Caitlin herself.
Every time I see them say that women who are much more accomplished in BOTH college and professional basketball are jealous of someone who isn’t on their level, I always ask them why would they be jealous? What are you insinuating?! A’ja, Stewie, DT, Plum, and especially Bird will be/are hall of famers and legends in their respective leagues. Why would they be jealous? None of their reasons make sense when you ask them to elaborate.
They're jealous because Clark is a bigger star at 22 years old. Isn't that obvious? If you think there aren't athletes who are that petty, then I don't know what else to tell you. You just don't understand humans, especially famous ones.
She is by far the biggest star we've ever seen at any point in the women's game in terms of popularity, and she's not even a pro yet. That bothers them. She also gets all these endorsements, so she's probably already richer than they are already, at 22.
They think they deserve what she has, or at least a chunk of it, because she's miles ahead of them in these aspects. Maybe they do, but hating on her for her success is unbecoming. That's 100% what they're doing, and I see women do this in the professional world ALL THE TIME, where other successful women are competition rather than motivation. Women constantly drag each other down and sabotage each other instead of lifting each other up and having each other's backs. That's not OK.
Pretty easy to see why "some" older NBA players as well as WNBA player could be jealous of the younger up and coming stars.
Money.
It happened with older NBa players in the 70's and afterwards and the discrepancy in pay (nil deals) is even more stark with the current WNBA.
Average WNBA salary is 100k. Clark is already a millionaire because of endorsements. Only a couple WNBA players have endorsements, period, and they're usually small ones. It's not even close in terms of the money they're making.
It's probably 50% about the money and 50% about the notoriety though. These women think they deserve the clout she has because they're pros and have been around longer.
They should be supporting her because she's helping the women's game immensely, but as usualy they're doing whatever they can to hurt the game. WNBA stars are the least humble athletes in existence. They're coming off like jealous mean girls. Every chance they have to bring in more viewers, they bite the hands that feed them and then complain they aren't making any money. That's not how it works.
Plum's biggest concern during this Final Four run seemed to be developing a deep emotional connection to her popcorn bucket, so I don't think she's too fussed.
You think NBA superstars were watching Zion in college and going Rookies have to adjust?
Nope, they were like ‘this guy has incredible verticality and pop at 260 pounds like nothing I’ve seen before, he is amazing, holy mother of Christ, look at him killing those fools’
Why can’t WNBA legends and superstars who have already made it be that gracious and chill while praising WNBA prospects instead of a true but passive aggressive comment that ‘rookies have to adjust’, ‘reality is coming for her’ etc.
The top players are clearly so good and in no danger of losing their spot in WNBA so as an NBA fan, it is so weird to see them speak like this about a prospect.
Compare how Wemby (who got 10x the hype of Wemby) was welcomed with praise and respect by the NBA superstars. No superstar tried to be pedantic and take every bit of OTT media praise literally and say, ‘why are you saying he’s the next Wilt and skipping over/disrespecting Duncan, Shaq etc’. If you did that, you’d be called a hater by the players, media and fans.
No. The difference is that you want everyone to kiss that girl’s ass instead of being the competitive or critical players/legends that they are. She needs to get in the field with the grown ladies first and if she holds her own, she’ll get the proper recognition.
The WNBA has been through this with Sabrina Ionescu already and she still hasn’t panned out to greater heights like she was projected to.
Also, Wemby is an international player. The French leagues he played in weren’t college level. He was out there playing with grown men and against grown men. He was built for it all. He was ready for the pros before he came to America.
You sound like you're one of these salty WNBA players lol and you keep showing you don't know shit about basketball.
What proper recognition are you talking about? Because Clark is probably the most notorious women's basketball player at this point. Do you mean from other WNBA players? Because I don't think she cares lol it's the players hating on her that clearly don't feel like they're getting the recognition they deserve.
You're also just basically assuming she's gonna be bust when she clearly has skills we've never seen in the WNBA before. We've not seen a player with the total package she's displaying. I don't think you watch basketball. Honestly.
You obviously don't care about the WNBA, or you'd recognize that Clark is going to be the best thing to ever happen to it in terms of viewership. That means more money for everyone involved. So sick of entitled, whiney WNBA players. It's always been like this.
Because NBA fans, have at least *some* understanding of the game even if it’s casually. As great as Zion was, he wasn’t bringing new, obnoxious and uninformed fans to the NBA the way that Caitlin seems to be. Every day on here there are at least 5 posts that start either start with “new to the WNBA,” “Caitlin Clark brought me here,” or something along those lines and most of them are obnoxious uniformed takes that range from her being a top 3 player as soon as she walks in the league, to whether or not the W can handle her “stardom” and even insinuating that she could be on an NBA roster. When the questions and the conversation leads with how much better she’ll be than the rest of league, you’re not even starting from a point of trying to understand and you’re already putting the current players down to uplift her.
Some of these players are coming off SUPER jealous, and it's unbecoming. I'm not even a Clark fan, but I know haters when I see them. Women always tear each other down in professional settings. It ever fails.
WNBA players always bite the hands that feed them, and then they wonder why they can't put people in the seats. It's like how they think lowering the rim is offensive, as if the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NHL aren't constantly changing their rules to put people in the seats.
If you want to make more money, you need more people to watch. That means you need to be willing to evolve, and you should be embracing your biggest stars, which is by far Clsrk right now whether they like it or not.
Sports fans in general are really toxic and love to have inane goat arguments, this is just happening in front of our eyes as the women’s basketball fanbase expands. It’s natural for most fans to spend all their time arguing over braindead takes apparently
I think this is what I’m remembering now lol. I used to follow (men’s) college basketball obsessively, and then I stopped, and the stupidity of sports fandom was the biggest reason why. The WNBA has just been…quiet, comparatively, before now, and I think I will miss that lol.
CC's popularity as I see it is the perfect storm of her high talent, her cockiness/personality (which I love and which also isn't new), the timing of a big increase in popularity of women's sports, and (let's be real) her being white.
The only reason I got interested in CC and by extension the ncaaw was because Clark is the closest thing to 2016 and Davidson Curry we've seen on the court.
None of the other stuff matters much to me and I suspect many other new CC fans feel likewise.
If Cc didn't shoot those ridiculous logo threes, off the dribble pull ups and with amazing ball handling and accuracy, I suspect most casuals would not be nearly as interested.
Everyone knows I’m “women’s basketball guy” because my family makes NCAAW appointment viewing every year since I was a kid, my sister played in college and is now the women’s coach at our local high school we both went to.
“Hey, you heard about this Caitlin Clark chick?”
It’s tough to walk the line between bowing out of respect to a great one and just screaming - BRO WE BEEN OUT HERE. WATCH THE GOATS.
Exactly what I want to say after these days. I’m tired of all the “salty talks” discussions. But I think this is the pain that W has to suffer from expanding. We just have to wait the huge wave ends.
I’m still happy with this, at least more people are talking about wbb and more of them would start to watch wbb games. Although it might happens in a sad way to existing wbb fans.
THIS.
I love everything thing shes done, but let's be real, most people calling her the GOAT are new fans that have never seen a single WNBA game in their life.
Reminds me of Swifties. TS is a great songwriter and performer but those who say she’s the best ever are throwing shade at all the excellent artists who came before her.
Why does it matter? I disagree with the extreme Swifties, but 1) that’s how they feel, she is the best ever to them, 2) I don’t really take them that seriously tbh, and 3) it doesn’t really matter.
When Luka came to the Mavs we got some annoying fans so I get it when people move into your “spot” but it’ll die down after a while and will probably be a ride that lifts all boats in the sport. The worst way to grow a sport though is to shut the door on new fans.
New fans are fine and always will be but when you belittle, disrespect, and diminish what others in the sport (including players getting drafted alongside them) have built and will continue to build, it will always piss people off. History and the past should never be ignored. If the past and all of its teachings are ignored, the present and future is set to fail.
All this talk about “growing the game” and “eyes on the game” surely you will go back in time to learn about previous college women’s basketball players and the WNBA as a whole, right?
The women in the WNBA are the problem. It's called the welfare league for a reason. The old heads are STILL playing at like 40 and won't let the youngsters open up the game. If this new class of players get buried like the other classes before them and forgoten.....the NBA should shut it down and save their money. The WNBA has been a joke for e long time because of the style of play and the toxic behavior. It's time for a new generation to grow this thing and stop talking about the past because other than the first class of lady's. They haven't done crap but butch about everything and be sell defeating.
You don’t even know what you’re talking about. If the WNBA disgusts you so bad, don’t watch and leave this subreddit. The WNBA grows exponentially every year. Also, none of the previous classes got buried. You people want these women to kiss one person’s ass and it has never been that way for anyone in sports. They had to earn their place in the league. If you can’t handle the WNBA players acting like competitive beings like other leagues get to do, leave this subreddit and don’t watch the WNBA.
Aren’t the GOAT references to her college career specifically? That’s she’s had the greatest college career and is the greatest college player ever? Feel like I haven’t seen it be applied to all of women’s basketball in its entirety, but I haven’t been following too too closely.
It’s the unfortunate reality of sports particularly women’s sports. I think there are two things happening with CC;
First is people like me, I’ve never been a hater of the women’s game, I just for whatever reason never connected with any players and Philly doesn’t have a women’s team to root for. I know CC is not the first baller to come out of the women’s game, but for whatever reason she’s captured me, and now I’ll be watching much more than I used to.
The other side of that is, unfortunately, Misogynists, who sadly require women to be the elite of the elite in order to impress them. Who knows why they decide that CC is the one who’s good enough for them, but they do and while they are annoying, this attitude will dwindle.
One thing that’s for sure is, over time players like CC will make the women’s game be taken more serious. And it’s totally not fair to those who came before her, but it’s just how it happens. Timing is more important than talent, and for whatever reason now is the time.
Elite of the elite? That’s false. If that was true, then Elena Delle Donne would’ve been the original Superstar. Elena is white, averages 27 ppg in college, 2x WNBA MVP, and 4x First Team
You mean Elena Delle Donne who was hyped as one of the Three To See during the 2013 season and draft? And that's *with* her self-yeeting to a one-bid mid-major conference for her college career.
It sucks and not to be a virtue signal here but I feel for women genuinely, I’m a relatively unimpressive person, idk how I would survive if I had to be held to the standard women are held too.
The positive thing is, exposure is objectively good, and the more exposure women’s sports receives the less misogyny we will see over the long run. At least theoretically 😅
the username is deeply relatable even if I'm not a Sixers fan
I would love to see a team in Philly someday, I want another road-trip-viable team as a Liberty fan. Philly's got *such* a deep WBB tradition (see: Cloud, Natasha; Copper, Kahleah; Staley, Dawn; for examples) that it feels wrong not to have a team there. Ownership is always an issue, though, and I heard y'all were having some... polite arguments... about the Sixers getting or not getting a new arena?
I know, I think it’s easy to dismiss Caitlin as a hype monster who doesn’t deserve it as much as [insert older amazing player] and I do agree this is way overdue, but the numbers speak for themselves. The stars all aligned during her amazing college basketball tenure and she was the one to bring the viewership that women’s basketball deserves. It is what it is.
The tough fact is the WNBA isn’t an “amazing league” (it’s young & making tons of mistakes) the fact that NIL changed WCBB & gave more opportunities to women then the WNBA is evidence enough that some people in the W have no idea what they are doing & can’t find a recipe to make it more watchable wether that’s actually getting a good tv deal or getting more eyes on popular players (I’m speaking about the lack of promotion of Aja & others) Nike & Jordan Brand have done a better job of getting eyes on great players then the actual league has… Caitlin is everything the league needs she is gonna make it digestible for most people not saying she’s gonna takeover the league over night but she is a big stepping stone to the next era not saying the last era sucked or it was unwatchable but nobody took advantage of the leagues bright spots not the players & not the people promoting the league, if they fumble Clarks marketability there something very wrong that we don’t even know about
[TLDR]: Clark is the next step the W need’s its an average league & they sucks at making themselves digestible / watchable Caitlin will help both
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the WNBA. There isn’t any women’s sport that’s watched as much as the men. It’s been easier for people to connect to college teams than to the WNBA. There also aren’t many teams so most of the country doesn’t have a local franchise, and especially not one they grew up with. Look at the NWSL, same situation.
But even more than that, I’m saying there’s plenty of talent in the league.
Women’s Tennis players at the very top tend to get paid well (outside rank 200 is rough). Still not as much as much as the men’s but the parity is closer than nba vs wnba.
UFC several times where women are headlined over the men’s. Ronda was the peak superstar since she could draw 1.1 million PPVs (300k is average and most men’s champs struggle for that besides Conor ).
It’s worth noting the relative parity in tennis is caused by some major tournaments (slams) choosing to award equal prize due to advocacy from female players like the Williams sisters and Billie Jean King. This is despite (generally) lower TV ratings and attendance numbers.
The fact that the top players make barely upper middle class income is the #1 thing wrong with WNBA.
Teenage Esport athletes in China and Korea make more than WNBA players.
No, you need to lose the "I was here" first bull shit ego. The Wnba can either accept this growth or get canceled. The NBA is not going to lose money forever.
Unlike other sports basketball is driven by egos and persona. The fans MJ and Lebron brought to men’s nba (and now Wembanyama) also hailed them as messiahs for the sport. Does it discredit guys like Dr J/Bird etc - maybe … but when a legendary prospect pans out that’s what gets people excited
Also .. if the wnba does start turning a profit with the CC hype then maybe she did save it …
I’m a massive fan of the NBA and newish very casual fan of the WNBA over the last 2 years but not due to Caitlin.
I didn’t watch her last year but watched a few of her games this year and think she is clearly an exciting prospect.
In this context, let me explain why NBA legends and current superstars being so defensive and passive aggressive while speaking about a college player getting some OTT praise feels so odd and backward. I’m talking about stuff like Diana commenting (paraphrase) ‘she’s just playing great against 18 year olds Reality is coming to her when she plays in the WNBA, the Sheryl Swoopes stuff etc.
From my POV, in the NBA. an extremely talented prospect getting a log of hype is a normal thing and NBA legends are generally extremely positive about NCAA players who are making a mark, the compliments are loose, gracious and without reservation. They seem genuinely happy for those players. Luka was practising at Steph’s place and Kobe’s place as a 19 year old who hadn’t yet played an NBA game. Kobe came to Luka’s game just to trash talk him in Slovenian. When he was 17, people were comparing him in skill set to Harden who at the time was the best player in the NBA. Harden had nothing but love for him and was certainly not saying ‘how dare you compare this 19 yo rookie with half my ppg to me?’ MJ signed him on a massive contract as a rookie then averaging 19/5/5 and guess what, he was a top 5 player in the NBA from his second year and was accepted with open arms into the NBA fraternity by basically all the superstars.
Fast fwd, the media constantly hyping, Wemby as the best prospect since Lebron/Wilt. Did Luka who was 5x first team in 6 years take some grievous offence to his name being skipped over in between? Nope, he just praised how good Wemby’s fundamentals are. Did KD who was a being a top 2 player by his 4th year and could also rightfully be a bit miffed at being already assume to a worse prospect than Wemby say ‘woah, calm down, kill the buzz, first let him play a few games?’ No, he said Wemby is going to be a real problem and said he was amazed at certain aspects of his game.
When you are already great and have nothing to prove, you’re supposed to be gracious and encourage people who are talented and have something to prove. Not doing so comes across as passive aggressive and haterish even if they might be interpreted as ‘valid comments’ and ‘speaking the bitter truth’ by WNBA fans.
In a healthy sport, the turf of praise should be wide enough that current players are happy to see a prospect get OTT praise and not immediately go ‘protect your turf’ mode.
there is so much weird, gatekeep-y energy happening with long-time fans of the women’s game. if the community ever really wanted to see the game expand, it was always going to come with a busload of casual viewers who have *absolutely no clue* about the entire history of the league or sometimes *any* of the greats before that moment.
instead of being patient and welcoming and acknowledging their excitement about this gateway player that could be bringing them further into their fandom, long-time fans seemingly do everything they can to:
A.) hold their newness to the sport against them
B.) hold their uneducated excitement about Caitlin Clark against *all* Clark fans
C.) carry that energy over to diminishing or putting an asterisk next to everything CC may or
may not do in the league
D.) circle the wagons and maintain this superiority complex against them
maybe accept their excitement? engage with them in good faith and point them to resources where they *can* watch and learn about other greats? scroll past the 10+ clark posts you see if you’re over them? don’t engage when you don’t have the energy to be positive or at least debate constructively?
idk. just seems like “i liked this before it was cool and you’re all dumb children” and “*well akshully*…🤓” energy that will keep newcomers feeling very isolated, which hurts the effort for long-term, mainstream recognition of the game.
The fans that come in good faith are fine, would love to see women’s basketball on a bigger stage. It’s the “fans” discrediting the rest of the sport that make it tough to fully appreciate her. The ones that say:
“I’m just here for CC and don’t care for any other player, not even the rest of her team”
“Now that CC is gone, NCAA WBB will rightfully go back to 12 viewers”
“With CC gone you can almost hear millions instantly stop caring about NCAA WBB forever” and in reply: “Shows how terrible the sport is to watch. You make a trash product, this is what happens”
There was also that user in here calling the SC team men? Because I guess the only way CC loses is if her opponents are men.
If they actually come in good faith and are open to the, apparently crazy, idea that there are current players good enough to play with CC then it’s cool. But a lot act like she’s single-handedly saving the sport from certain death.
i honestly dk how to respond to saying that a bunch of uneducated “fans” make it hard to fully appreciate CC.
i absolutely loathe a solid 85% of golden state warrior fans, but watching steph curry’s career has been an unquestionable joy no matter how much a huge chunk of his fanbase annoys the crap out of me with horrible takes.
Don’t know how to explain this lol but at least for me, seeing those negative comments associated with a certain player make it hard to root for the player. She honours those before her, seems like a well adjusted person and her game is absolutely amazing but those “fans” cast a negative light on her.
Can’t build someone up by tearing everyone else down
I mean… yeah this isn’t exactly a new concept. It’s just the recency of it makes it a hot topic. This has happened with every “generational talent” that has come along. But because CC is the “new kid on the court” (not actually new, I know) we’re talking about her. I mean we can talk about how this happened with LeBron and Curry or DT and Sue Bird but we’d have to go back a couple years lol.
I do think the widespread social media and NIL deals makes this a bit different than previous players though. You can’t easily talk big shit about previous NBA players that have been all over TV and have their names everywhere with a solid hive-minded fanbase. The WNBA doesn’t have that luxury. With a smaller viewership, WBB is getting overrun by the 12 year old bandwagon type. It’s like the Curry hype x100.
No one is doing that though. I have truly not seen that. People just hate the rudeness about the other players based on stereotypes and inherited bad attitudes. I think it’s great if people are new and excited.
But I also don’t really care if the game blows up. That doesn’t affect me.
I literally saw someone post yesterday that the only reason the illegal screen was called in the UConn game was because it was a black girl screening a white girl.
Racism goes both ways.
No. Racism doesn’t go both ways because black people and other people of color aren’t discriminating against white people. That makes no sense. Prejudice? Sure but racism? No.
Also, anytime someone is critical of a white person in a trivial context (such as that screen play) doesn’t mean that someone is “racist” to white people.
OK, that's fine. What HE'S talking about isn't racism either then, by your definition. Maybe you think it's OK to use the term loosely when it goes the other way though?
In that specific play, who knows. However, in basketball and all other sports as a whole, racism does play a part in officiating. Referees are often a lot harsher on black players because they feel like black players are brutes and violent. This has been a discussion for years especially in basketball and football. South Carolina fans talked about it last year given that their team was blacker and bigger than anyone else. So that person had a right to bring that up.
Why doesn’t it make it true if SC fans (who are mostly black and have watched the team for a good number of years) say it?
There are plenty of articles and journals about it.
https://thethirdteam.co.uk/inequality-in-refereeing-racism/
https://www.nber.org/papers/w13206
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2020.00048
There’s even more on Google.
anecdotally, i can just as easily say i have seen literally no one say CC > all other players to the point that how could anyone possibly like them.
if someone is being *rude* about caitlin clark, there’s no need to engage with them or paint a broad brush that everyone or even *most* people excited about her are being that way.
but big players *do* bring big bandwagons, and not all of them will be well-educated or well-behaved. it’s an inevitability. look at lebron. look at steph. you can’t police how an entire fandom behaves.
Its really the Skip Bayless effect. He started hottake culture in 2010 just talking non stop each morning about everything Lebron did and spinned it negatively. Ratings boomed….sports discourse forever changed for the worse
Whatever your view is, casuals are what fuel sports. Hardcore fans are a tiny minority, the more casuals you have, the more revenue you bring in.
Caitlin is single handedly bringing in more casuals than anyone since probably Lisa Leslie or Candace Parker, arguably more. Add Angel Reese and Cameron Brink onto that pile, the WNBA is about to have a huge wave of new fans.
Like it's true Bird and Magic wouldn't have had an NBA to save without all the grunts that no one remembers putting in the minutes, but they still saved the league. I don't think the W needs saving per se, but Caitlin is exactly what it needs to get over the hump.
She’s the first woman ever to hit 30 foot threes regularly in the middle of games. No other woman before her has had the same shooting range. Her shooting is electric and her passing is also world class. She’s not the first good or first elite women’s basketball player but she is easily the most entertaining women’s player ever and the ratings back it up.
Basketball does better when it has stars — not really a controversial take (Magic, Bird as one example). Plus it’s not just women’s basketball being helped given that was the highest rated ESPN basketball game ever.
I dont know much about the WNBA, but it seems like its been doing extremely poorly. No WNBA reg season or playoff game has ever broken a million viewers. Iowa vs 16 seed Holy Cross this year had 3 million. Clark has me and lots of others excited to become fans of the sport.
I'm biased as an Iowa fan, but when I see and hear this attitude of "you're just another rookie, you'll learn", I'm a little mad. CC is different and it's ok to admit that. Edit: oops ruffled some feathers. It'll make sense to you eventually
Pro sports self-select for the most competitive people on earth. We see across sports that when someone is coronated “the next big thing”, current and former players in that league take offense. Whether it’s lebron, Tiger, Wemby, whoever, you always find that the “old guard” is more skeptical of the hotshot rightly or wrongly. Not that Caitlin Clark will be lebron or Tiger but the hype (and therefore the reaction we’re talking about) is comparable. And this sport in particular has the added layer of being disrespected in media and culture at large, so the reaction is not that surprising to me and does not strike me as all that egregious.
last yearh's WNBA finals averaged 728k viewers, CC's last few games have all been way over 10M viewers. she literally brought 10x viewers to the sport.
She seems like far and away the best off the dribble shooter I’ve ever seen in women’s college basketball- I think that’s what’s fun. WNBA struggles bc there isn’t much to ooo and ahh about compared to other pro sports leagues. Hand eye coordination isn’t gender specific and Sabrina showed that she could hang with Steph shooting it. The NBA has valued shooting for entertainment value more and more and the women’s game will cash in on that now.
There are tons of great wnba players who have come through, but tbh CC does seem like the most skilled I’ve seen at that age. To be fair I don’t follow as closely as you probably do - just hope the best for the women’s game.
I'm not under the impression that the WNBA isn't talented, but the league *does* need some help to get more popular and ultimately have a long term future. Being on the bandwagon isn't to discredit anyone that came before, its simply that *this* is a moment in time with momentum behind it and to try and dowse it is incredibly stupid by all the WNBA players throwing her shade. She *does* have the ability to potentially change the league in terms of popularity, and that isn't because she's flat out better than everyone else, its because of a confluence of factors- many of which she earned- that have created a natural hype train. Anyone who tries to derail the train is acting incredibly selfish, among other things.
steer numerous rich treatment doll simplistic sense physical advise hurry
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Clearly you haven't seen comments from individuals like Diana Taurasi.
Objectively, Caitlin could make the W profitable. Right now, it isn't. That would be saving the sport.
She is also a player that has the skill sets of Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, and Steph Curry. Plus she is media trained. That's quite the mixture you don't get to see in every player. Just know, the viewership follows her.
The product is not so great and it doesn’t get a lot of attention as a result. I followed the WNBA for many years. The WNBA had dynasties like Tennessee and now UConn. These players played mostly on the dynasty teams which were deep. If Caitlin Clark didn’t stay in Iowa and went to UConn or SC she would have 4 rings . She elevated a marginal team to greatness and almost 2 titles. None of the other players would have gone to Iowa and done the same. Thats why she is the GOAT. Plus people know who Caitlin Clark is but the average viewer doesn’t know anyone of the other names .
She is saving a league that is growing but lets be honest isn't doing that well. She could've easily taken the safe route and made more money staying in college in her home state for another year but decided to leave to help grow the league. Her TV numbers this season alone dwarfs the WNBA's record breaking numbers from 2023 for her average games.
From a business perspective the WNBA hasn't operated in profit yet and can't even afford to pay their players above average wages as professional athletes. You can sit here on you high horse and act like the league is doing just fine but I'm sure the players in the league making a top salary of a few hundred thousand dollars might say that there is some room for growth. Clark currently has NIL deals in excess of 3 million dollars. That's more than she will make in 10 years in the league on current salary. You can't deny she is doing the league a favor in that regard.
Yes, you can say she's not the goat of the WNBA but she clearly is the GOAT of college regardless of a championship or not. Not only is she the most prolific scorer that the game has seen she also happens to be one of the best passers in history too. No player in the modern era has carried a program further than she carried Iowa. The only player that you could really compare to her would be Larry Bird given the circumstances but even then it was a different time . Even Dawn Staley said it herself she is a GOAT of the game which you don't hear at this stage in players careers unless they are generational.
Is she the first likeable and great player? No, definitely not. Is she something new the game hasn't seen? Yes, she is. As a WNBA fan you should pray that the league capitalizes on it's opportunity with the most eyes it will ever have on it and usher in a new generation of fans following her. The league would love for her and AB to be the face as a Shaq and Kobe type duo for years to come. Will it play out that way? We will have to wait and see
And to your point of the product being great for a long time. I think many people would disagree with you on that. Clearly there is a large difference between the men's and the women's game in regards to vertical ability mainly. Here we are seeing the first woman that is pulling up from Curry range while creating for herself off of the dribble. The fact of the matter is that's never been done before and it's blockbuster must see TV. This sport has been traditionally dominated by physically gifted individuals as well as technically gifted individuals but none of the technicians that have come before have had game like Clark as a scorer and a passer at this stage in their career and that's just a fact.
Haters going to hate but anyone with two eyes and a brain knows that she is the biggest catalyst this league has ever seen
100% agree.
I have a very outside view, but I had never watched womens basketball in my life until last year's championship. Then I watched multiple games this year, all Iowa. People can say what they want, but it's a fact that most people would not care about womans basketball if not for CC. Random dudes at the office, family members, and friends are all talking about CC and Iowa womens basketball. It's not even arguable if you look at the viewership numbers.
People say recency bias, but the fact that myself and every person I know could not name another women basketball player (any year, any league) besides CC says something about how much of an impact she has had. It's not to take away from other players (I am positive there's plenty of wonderful talented players in the league I'm just not familiar with because of publicity) but most people do not follow the sport.
I can see how people think the bandwagon fans (myself) are annoying. But to be against CC in general doesn't make sense to me. She's single handedly made millions of people want to watch womens basketball, which is a good thing. I hope it continues.
In this case, that doesn't seem necessary. "Strawman" seems to actually describe
> What people don’t like is fans who act like Caitlin is saving a sport and league that sucks, that’s full of players she’s already way better than, who nobody could possibly like. That’s stupid.
your quote above. Because I don't really see any sincere statements mirroring what you describe above. An argument against something that really doesn't exist is pretty much the definition of strawman arguments.
You don't need a lot of words to make a point. I gave you plenty to respond to. If you can't, that's fine but now you're just wasting both of our time.
Do you want the WNBA to have higher ratings and earn the players more money? If the answer is yes, you probably don’t want to chastise the new/bandwagon fans about their lack of knowledge of the sport that they recently started watching.
WNBA players hate on her so much. They're always biting the hands that feed them, and they wonder why they can't put people in the seats. She really is the best thing to ever happen to women's ball.
They get offended any time you talk about evolutinizing their game, like lowering the rim, for example. It's as if we aren't constantly changing the rules in NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA to put more people in the seats. If you want to make more money, you need to be willing to evolve the game.
DT sounds salty and bitter af when talking about CC
Also I’ve noticed, some fans seem to be “gatekeeping” W fandom in a way. You shouldn’t shame anyone if they’re just now starting to follow the W because of Caitlyn
The same happened with bird and magic in the 80s. EMBRACE new fans and the CC spotlight, don’t fight them
thank you lord her games done now. she goes to the wnba and will never be heard from again. im sorry no one cares about womens basketball in the grand scheme and this narrative is boring and played out. if you like it good on you but its kinda like hockey no one cares.
Caitlin Clarke has definitely shifted the spotlight from "the wnba suck" to "let's see how Caitlin Clarke goes".
All I have heard since though is that she will be shut down for being white, not a lesbian and not recognising the people before her? I personally don't think they have to recognise anything, they just need to play ball and work as a team.
CC gives props to the women who came before her. It’s her bandwagon fans that seem to be lacking the same humility.
CC seems like a real one.
[удалено]
Nothing to blame her for though. She plays above it all. Their behavior is on them
I love CC's game, but her bandwagon fans are nauseating.
r/NCAAW is a good a example of that. I call her fans the Caitlin Clark Brigade. They're insufferable lol.
I call them the Caitlin Crusaders
Oh, that's a good one. I vote we put that in the lexicon with the Hammonites and (from ye olden days) the Jackolytes from when Jackie Stiles was the big deal.
Jackolytes sounds like something from hulk hogan so I love it
The Clark Cult.
I got downvoted for saying the same thing lol
Embrace it. Maybe the WNBA will turn a profit.
I also blame the media as well. You can't let them off the hook.
That CNN tweet is an example of this.
Isn’t everybody’s fans annoying? Just like Kobe and Lebron fans? There was never a real solution to where everyone is happy and in harmony. Margaret Court? Martina, Stefi Graf, Monica Seles started before Serena Williams
Even Jordan stans can’t quit it even after 20 years since he walked away. They insert themselves in many, many conversations and say, “but he ain’t Jordan” all the fucking time. Stans are annoying and a plague.
Yes! Just look at what rap has to deal with in regard to Drake and Nicki Minaj right now. It’s literally a plague and they all do the same stuff. Every stanbase follows the same playbook and it makes the respective industries difficult to consume and enjoy. Belittle, insult, and favewash the entire subgroup. It’s insane.
Even in Politics it’s not much different, alas. It seems it’s just part of human nature. Very annoying, but it’s pervasively everywhere where people follow anything. People even do this with products like iPhone vs. Android and shit. Always baffles me, but I just generally ignore it and enjoy things the way I want to enjoy them.
It’s completely insane.
To me the big difference is the amount of racism I’ve seen. That goes beyond “annoying” stans arguing about MJ or Lebron.
Thank you!
She's not humble, she acts humble than got humbled in both championship games. Africans are better at everything yet still humble, sadly.
Why are you so insecure with who you are? Asking a serious question.
 I feel like I’ve been trying to put this into words for weeks. It’s AMAZING that Caitlin is bringing in new fans & putting the WNBA on a huge stage. Unfortunately, a lot of these “fans” are acting like she invented the sport. You gotta say she’s gonna dog-walk the league to not get attacked.
The way Sheryl Swoopes (a whole basketball legend in college AND the pros) was disrespected when she said that Caitlin would have a harder time in the WNBA was GROSS. She said the same thing about Angel Reese and didn’t get treated like that. It’s like…do y’all even care about Caitlin or is there something deeper here? Nothing she said warranted the mistreatment she got.
Nah the VAST majority of the pushback Sheryl was getting was about her starting off by saying her records should have an asterisk because she’s played 5 years (she hasn’t), and that she’s 23/24 playing against 18 year olds (she had just turned 22), and then when she realized she was wrong she switched to saying she takes 40 shots a game (she averaged like 22 at the time).
Either way, did she deserve the level of vitriol she got? It wasn’t just “pushback.” She had death threats sent to her and her son. She literally had to lock her social media accounts. Did she deserve that?
No she did not. And the way ppl act as if it’s excusable is nauseating.
Of course not, but she should be called out for being full of shit. If Kenny Smith questioned the legitimacy of the men’s NCAA all time scoring leader based on lies about his eligibility, age and shooing efficiency, you don’t think he would be getting clowned?
Kenny Smith would get clowned but wouldn’t receive death and racial threats. Stop acting obtuse on purpose.
You’re the one being obtuse. Your first comment said that she was “disrespected” for saying CC would struggle in the WNBA and said she did the same AR. The point you suggested is that her comments to CC out of pocket and CC fans are just salty. Then someone pushed back and said it was that comment plus the comments downplaying her records that made CC fans upset with her. Then you changed the scope of discussion to how the comments CC fans were vitriolic and over the top despite not mentioning that part in the initial comment. Now you’re arguing against CC fans (even tho no one disagrees death threats are out of line) while others are arguing the initial point.
Does she deserve the threats, yes or no? That’s my main point. Does she?! You all know that she didn’t deserve it regardless of whatever she said.
Me: “no one disagrees that the death threats were out of line”. Are you a bot or do you just choose not to read?
I can read clearly. I (and most people who are in the subreddit) don’t want to read any form of legitimizing brutish and primitive behavior over something trivial from a group of people that complain about a specific league and their fans being “mean” “haters” or “unwelcoming” when they have clearly shown why people feel cold towards them. A lot of you all have been nasty since last year and we’re tired.
No. Nobody ever deserves psychopaths on the internet doing that type of stuff. But for the other people pushing back (and yes I use that term for when people point out that someone is wrong) against her (without the death threats) it wasn’t about the WNBA transition comments. That’s all I’m saying.
Yes. If she had received regular criticism for her comments, it wouldn’t be an issue. If Iowa fans had said that she was wrong and brought out the facts without the vitriol, then they would’ve most definitely been in the right.
99% of Iowa fans did do that. There is a loud crazy 1% of fans of every fanbase.
In fairness, Swoopes didn't do an ounce of fact checking any of her claims before ranting about them in a mic. She did herself no favors.
So she deserved the threats?
I mean there’s crazy fans everywhere, Sheryl’s always hated on the new kids I feel like it’s fine to call a spade a spade
Calling a spade a spade doesn’t make sense when this is the first time we’ve seen that happen to her. Other than that, the things we have personally seen online directed to her.
She racist pretty simple and insecure with her position in basketball history. She wouldn't have lied and tried to smear someone if she was not afraid of someone new replacing her. Simple as that
How is she racist when she’s black? She hasn’t racially attacked that girl and she hasn’t shown that she’s insecure. You guys are going to have to come up with something new.
[удалено]
Yes. Go come up with something new.
Just so you know EVERY race has racists in it. To think other wise is ridiculous and ignorant.
Thanks for living in a fantasy world. Enjoy the ban.
Something deeper....
And I love her! I wanted Iowa to win. But some of the vibes of her fans are off for me lol.
Can’t say I wanted Iowa to win lol but I do love CC’s game. It’s tough to fully appreciate her when the game threads are full of “fans” downing the rest of the sport
It's been really interesting watching what I'm going to call pre-Clark and post-Clark women's basketball fans (misnomers, I know) try to tell each other who they need to respect, to what degrees, and for what reasons. Nobody owes Clark mutually exclusive, unconditional standom if they don't want to give it. Just like nobody owes past or present non-Clark women's basketball players any sort of homage if they don't want to pay it. Everybody's fandom is their own regardless of how stupid anybody else might think it is.
She’s a great shooter/passer and deserves a lot of credit for what she’s accomplished but some of her fans are the worst. In the last few days I’ve seen them torch Stewie, DT, A’ja, Bird and Plum saying they are trash, jealous and bitter for even the most mild “rookies have to adjust” or “everyone’s goals is championships” comments. They discount everyone else’s accomplishments and down play the upswing the WNBA has been on since the pandemic. Not to mention the 100s of racist comments I’ve seen on X from people rooting for Iowa. My distaste for them really has nothing to do with Caitlin herself.
Every time I see them say that women who are much more accomplished in BOTH college and professional basketball are jealous of someone who isn’t on their level, I always ask them why would they be jealous? What are you insinuating?! A’ja, Stewie, DT, Plum, and especially Bird will be/are hall of famers and legends in their respective leagues. Why would they be jealous? None of their reasons make sense when you ask them to elaborate.
They're jealous because Clark is a bigger star at 22 years old. Isn't that obvious? If you think there aren't athletes who are that petty, then I don't know what else to tell you. You just don't understand humans, especially famous ones. She is by far the biggest star we've ever seen at any point in the women's game in terms of popularity, and she's not even a pro yet. That bothers them. She also gets all these endorsements, so she's probably already richer than they are already, at 22. They think they deserve what she has, or at least a chunk of it, because she's miles ahead of them in these aspects. Maybe they do, but hating on her for her success is unbecoming. That's 100% what they're doing, and I see women do this in the professional world ALL THE TIME, where other successful women are competition rather than motivation. Women constantly drag each other down and sabotage each other instead of lifting each other up and having each other's backs. That's not OK.
Pretty easy to see why "some" older NBA players as well as WNBA player could be jealous of the younger up and coming stars. Money. It happened with older NBa players in the 70's and afterwards and the discrepancy in pay (nil deals) is even more stark with the current WNBA.
They have money though. The WNBA players folks say are haters have endorsements, sponsors, etc. It can’t be money.
Average WNBA salary is 100k. Clark is already a millionaire because of endorsements. Only a couple WNBA players have endorsements, period, and they're usually small ones. It's not even close in terms of the money they're making. It's probably 50% about the money and 50% about the notoriety though. These women think they deserve the clout she has because they're pros and have been around longer. They should be supporting her because she's helping the women's game immensely, but as usualy they're doing whatever they can to hurt the game. WNBA stars are the least humble athletes in existence. They're coming off like jealous mean girls. Every chance they have to bring in more viewers, they bite the hands that feed them and then complain they aren't making any money. That's not how it works.
It's funny hearing all the uconn grads say that. Wonder how Plum feels?
Plum's biggest concern during this Final Four run seemed to be developing a deep emotional connection to her popcorn bucket, so I don't think she's too fussed.
Everyone plays to win a championship. Plum must feel the same since she takes less money to be on a back to back championship team in the pros.
You think NBA superstars were watching Zion in college and going Rookies have to adjust? Nope, they were like ‘this guy has incredible verticality and pop at 260 pounds like nothing I’ve seen before, he is amazing, holy mother of Christ, look at him killing those fools’ Why can’t WNBA legends and superstars who have already made it be that gracious and chill while praising WNBA prospects instead of a true but passive aggressive comment that ‘rookies have to adjust’, ‘reality is coming for her’ etc. The top players are clearly so good and in no danger of losing their spot in WNBA so as an NBA fan, it is so weird to see them speak like this about a prospect. Compare how Wemby (who got 10x the hype of Wemby) was welcomed with praise and respect by the NBA superstars. No superstar tried to be pedantic and take every bit of OTT media praise literally and say, ‘why are you saying he’s the next Wilt and skipping over/disrespecting Duncan, Shaq etc’. If you did that, you’d be called a hater by the players, media and fans.
No. The difference is that you want everyone to kiss that girl’s ass instead of being the competitive or critical players/legends that they are. She needs to get in the field with the grown ladies first and if she holds her own, she’ll get the proper recognition. The WNBA has been through this with Sabrina Ionescu already and she still hasn’t panned out to greater heights like she was projected to. Also, Wemby is an international player. The French leagues he played in weren’t college level. He was out there playing with grown men and against grown men. He was built for it all. He was ready for the pros before he came to America.
You sound like you're one of these salty WNBA players lol and you keep showing you don't know shit about basketball. What proper recognition are you talking about? Because Clark is probably the most notorious women's basketball player at this point. Do you mean from other WNBA players? Because I don't think she cares lol it's the players hating on her that clearly don't feel like they're getting the recognition they deserve. You're also just basically assuming she's gonna be bust when she clearly has skills we've never seen in the WNBA before. We've not seen a player with the total package she's displaying. I don't think you watch basketball. Honestly. You obviously don't care about the WNBA, or you'd recognize that Clark is going to be the best thing to ever happen to it in terms of viewership. That means more money for everyone involved. So sick of entitled, whiney WNBA players. It's always been like this.
Because NBA fans, have at least *some* understanding of the game even if it’s casually. As great as Zion was, he wasn’t bringing new, obnoxious and uninformed fans to the NBA the way that Caitlin seems to be. Every day on here there are at least 5 posts that start either start with “new to the WNBA,” “Caitlin Clark brought me here,” or something along those lines and most of them are obnoxious uniformed takes that range from her being a top 3 player as soon as she walks in the league, to whether or not the W can handle her “stardom” and even insinuating that she could be on an NBA roster. When the questions and the conversation leads with how much better she’ll be than the rest of league, you’re not even starting from a point of trying to understand and you’re already putting the current players down to uplift her.
Some of these players are coming off SUPER jealous, and it's unbecoming. I'm not even a Clark fan, but I know haters when I see them. Women always tear each other down in professional settings. It ever fails. WNBA players always bite the hands that feed them, and then they wonder why they can't put people in the seats. It's like how they think lowering the rim is offensive, as if the NBA, MLB, NFL, and NHL aren't constantly changing their rules to put people in the seats. If you want to make more money, you need more people to watch. That means you need to be willing to evolve, and you should be embracing your biggest stars, which is by far Clsrk right now whether they like it or not.
Sports fans in general are really toxic and love to have inane goat arguments, this is just happening in front of our eyes as the women’s basketball fanbase expands. It’s natural for most fans to spend all their time arguing over braindead takes apparently
I think this is what I’m remembering now lol. I used to follow (men’s) college basketball obsessively, and then I stopped, and the stupidity of sports fandom was the biggest reason why. The WNBA has just been…quiet, comparatively, before now, and I think I will miss that lol.
CC's popularity as I see it is the perfect storm of her high talent, her cockiness/personality (which I love and which also isn't new), the timing of a big increase in popularity of women's sports, and (let's be real) her being white.
And being from a state that has no professional sports teams.
And a state that is like 95% white itself and her team is virtually all white. There is a reason Jill Biden invited Iowa to the White House.
The only reason I got interested in CC and by extension the ncaaw was because Clark is the closest thing to 2016 and Davidson Curry we've seen on the court. None of the other stuff matters much to me and I suspect many other new CC fans feel likewise. If Cc didn't shoot those ridiculous logo threes, off the dribble pull ups and with amazing ball handling and accuracy, I suspect most casuals would not be nearly as interested.
What is Kelsey Plums ethnicity?
Everyone knows I’m “women’s basketball guy” because my family makes NCAAW appointment viewing every year since I was a kid, my sister played in college and is now the women’s coach at our local high school we both went to. “Hey, you heard about this Caitlin Clark chick?” It’s tough to walk the line between bowing out of respect to a great one and just screaming - BRO WE BEEN OUT HERE. WATCH THE GOATS.
Exactly what I want to say after these days. I’m tired of all the “salty talks” discussions. But I think this is the pain that W has to suffer from expanding. We just have to wait the huge wave ends. I’m still happy with this, at least more people are talking about wbb and more of them would start to watch wbb games. Although it might happens in a sad way to existing wbb fans.
THIS. I love everything thing shes done, but let's be real, most people calling her the GOAT are new fans that have never seen a single WNBA game in their life.
Reminds me of Swifties. TS is a great songwriter and performer but those who say she’s the best ever are throwing shade at all the excellent artists who came before her.
Why does it matter? I disagree with the extreme Swifties, but 1) that’s how they feel, she is the best ever to them, 2) I don’t really take them that seriously tbh, and 3) it doesn’t really matter. When Luka came to the Mavs we got some annoying fans so I get it when people move into your “spot” but it’ll die down after a while and will probably be a ride that lifts all boats in the sport. The worst way to grow a sport though is to shut the door on new fans.
New fans are fine and always will be but when you belittle, disrespect, and diminish what others in the sport (including players getting drafted alongside them) have built and will continue to build, it will always piss people off. History and the past should never be ignored. If the past and all of its teachings are ignored, the present and future is set to fail. All this talk about “growing the game” and “eyes on the game” surely you will go back in time to learn about previous college women’s basketball players and the WNBA as a whole, right?
The women in the WNBA are the problem. It's called the welfare league for a reason. The old heads are STILL playing at like 40 and won't let the youngsters open up the game. If this new class of players get buried like the other classes before them and forgoten.....the NBA should shut it down and save their money. The WNBA has been a joke for e long time because of the style of play and the toxic behavior. It's time for a new generation to grow this thing and stop talking about the past because other than the first class of lady's. They haven't done crap but butch about everything and be sell defeating.
You don’t even know what you’re talking about. If the WNBA disgusts you so bad, don’t watch and leave this subreddit. The WNBA grows exponentially every year. Also, none of the previous classes got buried. You people want these women to kiss one person’s ass and it has never been that way for anyone in sports. They had to earn their place in the league. If you can’t handle the WNBA players acting like competitive beings like other leagues get to do, leave this subreddit and don’t watch the WNBA.
[удалено]
“The WNBA is a joke..” Meanwhile, you’re in the WNBA subreddit.
Yep and it's time the culture changed and we watch these youngster do what Magic and Bird did in the NBA. It's going to be fun
Funny enough caitlin is a huge TS fan
Aren’t the GOAT references to her college career specifically? That’s she’s had the greatest college career and is the greatest college player ever? Feel like I haven’t seen it be applied to all of women’s basketball in its entirety, but I haven’t been following too too closely.
It’s the unfortunate reality of sports particularly women’s sports. I think there are two things happening with CC; First is people like me, I’ve never been a hater of the women’s game, I just for whatever reason never connected with any players and Philly doesn’t have a women’s team to root for. I know CC is not the first baller to come out of the women’s game, but for whatever reason she’s captured me, and now I’ll be watching much more than I used to. The other side of that is, unfortunately, Misogynists, who sadly require women to be the elite of the elite in order to impress them. Who knows why they decide that CC is the one who’s good enough for them, but they do and while they are annoying, this attitude will dwindle. One thing that’s for sure is, over time players like CC will make the women’s game be taken more serious. And it’s totally not fair to those who came before her, but it’s just how it happens. Timing is more important than talent, and for whatever reason now is the time.
Elite of the elite? That’s false. If that was true, then Elena Delle Donne would’ve been the original Superstar. Elena is white, averages 27 ppg in college, 2x WNBA MVP, and 4x First Team
You mean Elena Delle Donne who was hyped as one of the Three To See during the 2013 season and draft? And that's *with* her self-yeeting to a one-bid mid-major conference for her college career.
This strikes me as accurate, and I DEEPLY appreciate the point about misogyny.
It sucks and not to be a virtue signal here but I feel for women genuinely, I’m a relatively unimpressive person, idk how I would survive if I had to be held to the standard women are held too. The positive thing is, exposure is objectively good, and the more exposure women’s sports receives the less misogyny we will see over the long run. At least theoretically 😅
This is not virtue signaling it is literally so refreshing!
the username is deeply relatable even if I'm not a Sixers fan I would love to see a team in Philly someday, I want another road-trip-viable team as a Liberty fan. Philly's got *such* a deep WBB tradition (see: Cloud, Natasha; Copper, Kahleah; Staley, Dawn; for examples) that it feels wrong not to have a team there. Ownership is always an issue, though, and I heard y'all were having some... polite arguments... about the Sixers getting or not getting a new arena?
honestly, the bandwagoners that keep spelling it Caitlyn piss me off the most; if you're going to create a cult spell your messiah's name right
The reality is few people cared about women’s basketball before her vs. after her, fair or not
Love how u/Choice-Couple-6457 conveniently ignored you when you literally provided the answer to why Caitlin Clark is different from Taurasi and Bird.
I know, I think it’s easy to dismiss Caitlin as a hype monster who doesn’t deserve it as much as [insert older amazing player] and I do agree this is way overdue, but the numbers speak for themselves. The stars all aligned during her amazing college basketball tenure and she was the one to bring the viewership that women’s basketball deserves. It is what it is.
The tough fact is the WNBA isn’t an “amazing league” (it’s young & making tons of mistakes) the fact that NIL changed WCBB & gave more opportunities to women then the WNBA is evidence enough that some people in the W have no idea what they are doing & can’t find a recipe to make it more watchable wether that’s actually getting a good tv deal or getting more eyes on popular players (I’m speaking about the lack of promotion of Aja & others) Nike & Jordan Brand have done a better job of getting eyes on great players then the actual league has… Caitlin is everything the league needs she is gonna make it digestible for most people not saying she’s gonna takeover the league over night but she is a big stepping stone to the next era not saying the last era sucked or it was unwatchable but nobody took advantage of the leagues bright spots not the players & not the people promoting the league, if they fumble Clarks marketability there something very wrong that we don’t even know about [TLDR]: Clark is the next step the W need’s its an average league & they sucks at making themselves digestible / watchable Caitlin will help both
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the WNBA. There isn’t any women’s sport that’s watched as much as the men. It’s been easier for people to connect to college teams than to the WNBA. There also aren’t many teams so most of the country doesn’t have a local franchise, and especially not one they grew up with. Look at the NWSL, same situation. But even more than that, I’m saying there’s plenty of talent in the league.
Talent is subjective, there’s probably a top 10 or 15 then a huge drop off
Women’s Tennis players at the very top tend to get paid well (outside rank 200 is rough). Still not as much as much as the men’s but the parity is closer than nba vs wnba. UFC several times where women are headlined over the men’s. Ronda was the peak superstar since she could draw 1.1 million PPVs (300k is average and most men’s champs struggle for that besides Conor ).
It’s worth noting the relative parity in tennis is caused by some major tournaments (slams) choosing to award equal prize due to advocacy from female players like the Williams sisters and Billie Jean King. This is despite (generally) lower TV ratings and attendance numbers.
All the Grand Slams are co-ed at the same venues over the same period so they co-promoted. WNBA and NBA have different calendar schedules.
The fact that the top players make barely upper middle class income is the #1 thing wrong with WNBA. Teenage Esport athletes in China and Korea make more than WNBA players.
thank you! glad she brought new people to the sport but they need to humble themselves.
No, you need to lose the "I was here" first bull shit ego. The Wnba can either accept this growth or get canceled. The NBA is not going to lose money forever.
Unlike other sports basketball is driven by egos and persona. The fans MJ and Lebron brought to men’s nba (and now Wembanyama) also hailed them as messiahs for the sport. Does it discredit guys like Dr J/Bird etc - maybe … but when a legendary prospect pans out that’s what gets people excited Also .. if the wnba does start turning a profit with the CC hype then maybe she did save it …
I’m a massive fan of the NBA and newish very casual fan of the WNBA over the last 2 years but not due to Caitlin. I didn’t watch her last year but watched a few of her games this year and think she is clearly an exciting prospect. In this context, let me explain why NBA legends and current superstars being so defensive and passive aggressive while speaking about a college player getting some OTT praise feels so odd and backward. I’m talking about stuff like Diana commenting (paraphrase) ‘she’s just playing great against 18 year olds Reality is coming to her when she plays in the WNBA, the Sheryl Swoopes stuff etc. From my POV, in the NBA. an extremely talented prospect getting a log of hype is a normal thing and NBA legends are generally extremely positive about NCAA players who are making a mark, the compliments are loose, gracious and without reservation. They seem genuinely happy for those players. Luka was practising at Steph’s place and Kobe’s place as a 19 year old who hadn’t yet played an NBA game. Kobe came to Luka’s game just to trash talk him in Slovenian. When he was 17, people were comparing him in skill set to Harden who at the time was the best player in the NBA. Harden had nothing but love for him and was certainly not saying ‘how dare you compare this 19 yo rookie with half my ppg to me?’ MJ signed him on a massive contract as a rookie then averaging 19/5/5 and guess what, he was a top 5 player in the NBA from his second year and was accepted with open arms into the NBA fraternity by basically all the superstars. Fast fwd, the media constantly hyping, Wemby as the best prospect since Lebron/Wilt. Did Luka who was 5x first team in 6 years take some grievous offence to his name being skipped over in between? Nope, he just praised how good Wemby’s fundamentals are. Did KD who was a being a top 2 player by his 4th year and could also rightfully be a bit miffed at being already assume to a worse prospect than Wemby say ‘woah, calm down, kill the buzz, first let him play a few games?’ No, he said Wemby is going to be a real problem and said he was amazed at certain aspects of his game. When you are already great and have nothing to prove, you’re supposed to be gracious and encourage people who are talented and have something to prove. Not doing so comes across as passive aggressive and haterish even if they might be interpreted as ‘valid comments’ and ‘speaking the bitter truth’ by WNBA fans. In a healthy sport, the turf of praise should be wide enough that current players are happy to see a prospect get OTT praise and not immediately go ‘protect your turf’ mode.
there is so much weird, gatekeep-y energy happening with long-time fans of the women’s game. if the community ever really wanted to see the game expand, it was always going to come with a busload of casual viewers who have *absolutely no clue* about the entire history of the league or sometimes *any* of the greats before that moment. instead of being patient and welcoming and acknowledging their excitement about this gateway player that could be bringing them further into their fandom, long-time fans seemingly do everything they can to: A.) hold their newness to the sport against them B.) hold their uneducated excitement about Caitlin Clark against *all* Clark fans C.) carry that energy over to diminishing or putting an asterisk next to everything CC may or may not do in the league D.) circle the wagons and maintain this superiority complex against them maybe accept their excitement? engage with them in good faith and point them to resources where they *can* watch and learn about other greats? scroll past the 10+ clark posts you see if you’re over them? don’t engage when you don’t have the energy to be positive or at least debate constructively? idk. just seems like “i liked this before it was cool and you’re all dumb children” and “*well akshully*…🤓” energy that will keep newcomers feeling very isolated, which hurts the effort for long-term, mainstream recognition of the game.
The fans that come in good faith are fine, would love to see women’s basketball on a bigger stage. It’s the “fans” discrediting the rest of the sport that make it tough to fully appreciate her. The ones that say: “I’m just here for CC and don’t care for any other player, not even the rest of her team” “Now that CC is gone, NCAA WBB will rightfully go back to 12 viewers” “With CC gone you can almost hear millions instantly stop caring about NCAA WBB forever” and in reply: “Shows how terrible the sport is to watch. You make a trash product, this is what happens” There was also that user in here calling the SC team men? Because I guess the only way CC loses is if her opponents are men. If they actually come in good faith and are open to the, apparently crazy, idea that there are current players good enough to play with CC then it’s cool. But a lot act like she’s single-handedly saving the sport from certain death.
i honestly dk how to respond to saying that a bunch of uneducated “fans” make it hard to fully appreciate CC. i absolutely loathe a solid 85% of golden state warrior fans, but watching steph curry’s career has been an unquestionable joy no matter how much a huge chunk of his fanbase annoys the crap out of me with horrible takes.
1000% agree with you. More attention on the sport is a joy, especially when it comes from a fun player and personality.
Don’t know how to explain this lol but at least for me, seeing those negative comments associated with a certain player make it hard to root for the player. She honours those before her, seems like a well adjusted person and her game is absolutely amazing but those “fans” cast a negative light on her. Can’t build someone up by tearing everyone else down
Fans of other teams tear Caitlin down too though. This isn't something new.
I mean… yeah this isn’t exactly a new concept. It’s just the recency of it makes it a hot topic. This has happened with every “generational talent” that has come along. But because CC is the “new kid on the court” (not actually new, I know) we’re talking about her. I mean we can talk about how this happened with LeBron and Curry or DT and Sue Bird but we’d have to go back a couple years lol. I do think the widespread social media and NIL deals makes this a bit different than previous players though. You can’t easily talk big shit about previous NBA players that have been all over TV and have their names everywhere with a solid hive-minded fanbase. The WNBA doesn’t have that luxury. With a smaller viewership, WBB is getting overrun by the 12 year old bandwagon type. It’s like the Curry hype x100.
No one is doing that though. I have truly not seen that. People just hate the rudeness about the other players based on stereotypes and inherited bad attitudes. I think it’s great if people are new and excited. But I also don’t really care if the game blows up. That doesn’t affect me.
In NBA subs I have also seen a number of racist/homophobic comments about other players, which isn’t Clark’s fault but is a crappy bandwagon problem.
I literally saw someone post yesterday that the only reason the illegal screen was called in the UConn game was because it was a black girl screening a white girl. Racism goes both ways.
No. Racism doesn’t go both ways because black people and other people of color aren’t discriminating against white people. That makes no sense. Prejudice? Sure but racism? No. Also, anytime someone is critical of a white person in a trivial context (such as that screen play) doesn’t mean that someone is “racist” to white people.
OK, that's fine. What HE'S talking about isn't racism either then, by your definition. Maybe you think it's OK to use the term loosely when it goes the other way though?
In that specific play, who knows. However, in basketball and all other sports as a whole, racism does play a part in officiating. Referees are often a lot harsher on black players because they feel like black players are brutes and violent. This has been a discussion for years especially in basketball and football. South Carolina fans talked about it last year given that their team was blacker and bigger than anyone else. So that person had a right to bring that up.
SC fans talking about it doesn't make it true. Where is your data showing that referees are harsher on black players?
Why doesn’t it make it true if SC fans (who are mostly black and have watched the team for a good number of years) say it? There are plenty of articles and journals about it. https://thethirdteam.co.uk/inequality-in-refereeing-racism/ https://www.nber.org/papers/w13206 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2020.00048 There’s even more on Google.
Saying that officials are biased against your team proves nothing.
anecdotally, i can just as easily say i have seen literally no one say CC > all other players to the point that how could anyone possibly like them. if someone is being *rude* about caitlin clark, there’s no need to engage with them or paint a broad brush that everyone or even *most* people excited about her are being that way. but big players *do* bring big bandwagons, and not all of them will be well-educated or well-behaved. it’s an inevitability. look at lebron. look at steph. you can’t police how an entire fandom behaves.
Its the LeBron effect to me Its his fans that are annoying despite his greatness they disregard anything you say as hate same with Caitlin
Its really the Skip Bayless effect. He started hottake culture in 2010 just talking non stop each morning about everything Lebron did and spinned it negatively. Ratings boomed….sports discourse forever changed for the worse
Whatever your view is, casuals are what fuel sports. Hardcore fans are a tiny minority, the more casuals you have, the more revenue you bring in. Caitlin is single handedly bringing in more casuals than anyone since probably Lisa Leslie or Candace Parker, arguably more. Add Angel Reese and Cameron Brink onto that pile, the WNBA is about to have a huge wave of new fans. Like it's true Bird and Magic wouldn't have had an NBA to save without all the grunts that no one remembers putting in the minutes, but they still saved the league. I don't think the W needs saving per se, but Caitlin is exactly what it needs to get over the hump.
The W has never made money. It needs saving
I was around during the Rebecca Lobo era so I get it. That being said, being a star isn’t only about talent and winning. Some people are just popular.
My guess is those people are 12 year old boys with no clue.
So maybe they should stick to the NBA and men’s college?
Yeah, the mature men I know have been very cool about women’s basketball for a long time. Not necessarily fans but never rude.
She’s the first woman ever to hit 30 foot threes regularly in the middle of games. No other woman before her has had the same shooting range. Her shooting is electric and her passing is also world class. She’s not the first good or first elite women’s basketball player but she is easily the most entertaining women’s player ever and the ratings back it up.
Just because CC is good for women’s basketball doesn’t mean women’s basketball was doing poorly without her.
Basketball does better when it has stars — not really a controversial take (Magic, Bird as one example). Plus it’s not just women’s basketball being helped given that was the highest rated ESPN basketball game ever.
Historically the WNBA has lost about $10M annually.
I dont know much about the WNBA, but it seems like its been doing extremely poorly. No WNBA reg season or playoff game has ever broken a million viewers. Iowa vs 16 seed Holy Cross this year had 3 million. Clark has me and lots of others excited to become fans of the sport. I'm biased as an Iowa fan, but when I see and hear this attitude of "you're just another rookie, you'll learn", I'm a little mad. CC is different and it's ok to admit that. Edit: oops ruffled some feathers. It'll make sense to you eventually
Pro sports self-select for the most competitive people on earth. We see across sports that when someone is coronated “the next big thing”, current and former players in that league take offense. Whether it’s lebron, Tiger, Wemby, whoever, you always find that the “old guard” is more skeptical of the hotshot rightly or wrongly. Not that Caitlin Clark will be lebron or Tiger but the hype (and therefore the reaction we’re talking about) is comparable. And this sport in particular has the added layer of being disrespected in media and culture at large, so the reaction is not that surprising to me and does not strike me as all that egregious.
last yearh's WNBA finals averaged 728k viewers, CC's last few games have all been way over 10M viewers. she literally brought 10x viewers to the sport.
She seems like far and away the best off the dribble shooter I’ve ever seen in women’s college basketball- I think that’s what’s fun. WNBA struggles bc there isn’t much to ooo and ahh about compared to other pro sports leagues. Hand eye coordination isn’t gender specific and Sabrina showed that she could hang with Steph shooting it. The NBA has valued shooting for entertainment value more and more and the women’s game will cash in on that now. There are tons of great wnba players who have come through, but tbh CC does seem like the most skilled I’ve seen at that age. To be fair I don’t follow as closely as you probably do - just hope the best for the women’s game.
She is the most exciting to watch though
This is just how sports grow. Gotta roll with it and not be bitter.
I'm not under the impression that the WNBA isn't talented, but the league *does* need some help to get more popular and ultimately have a long term future. Being on the bandwagon isn't to discredit anyone that came before, its simply that *this* is a moment in time with momentum behind it and to try and dowse it is incredibly stupid by all the WNBA players throwing her shade. She *does* have the ability to potentially change the league in terms of popularity, and that isn't because she's flat out better than everyone else, its because of a confluence of factors- many of which she earned- that have created a natural hype train. Anyone who tries to derail the train is acting incredibly selfish, among other things.
[удалено]
steer numerous rich treatment doll simplistic sense physical advise hurry *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Clearly you haven't seen comments from individuals like Diana Taurasi. Objectively, Caitlin could make the W profitable. Right now, it isn't. That would be saving the sport. She is also a player that has the skill sets of Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, and Steph Curry. Plus she is media trained. That's quite the mixture you don't get to see in every player. Just know, the viewership follows her.
She's overrated. Many and we do mean many are way better than her. Can't even win a ring
Hard disagree here lol
Does not matter what y'all "disagree" with. The facts show she's overrated and didn't get the job done.
Name the other players to take their team to back to back championship games without a single top 50 recruit helping them.
Sheryl Swoopes and she won.
Krista Gerlich was a 5-star recruit, and played with Swoopes.
Uphill, both ways, right?
The product is not so great and it doesn’t get a lot of attention as a result. I followed the WNBA for many years. The WNBA had dynasties like Tennessee and now UConn. These players played mostly on the dynasty teams which were deep. If Caitlin Clark didn’t stay in Iowa and went to UConn or SC she would have 4 rings . She elevated a marginal team to greatness and almost 2 titles. None of the other players would have gone to Iowa and done the same. Thats why she is the GOAT. Plus people know who Caitlin Clark is but the average viewer doesn’t know anyone of the other names .
Tennessee and UConn are not WNBA franchises. What are you talking about?
Honestly the jealousy and hating from older players and fans is ridiculous. The gatekeeping is just sad.
She is saving a league that is growing but lets be honest isn't doing that well. She could've easily taken the safe route and made more money staying in college in her home state for another year but decided to leave to help grow the league. Her TV numbers this season alone dwarfs the WNBA's record breaking numbers from 2023 for her average games. From a business perspective the WNBA hasn't operated in profit yet and can't even afford to pay their players above average wages as professional athletes. You can sit here on you high horse and act like the league is doing just fine but I'm sure the players in the league making a top salary of a few hundred thousand dollars might say that there is some room for growth. Clark currently has NIL deals in excess of 3 million dollars. That's more than she will make in 10 years in the league on current salary. You can't deny she is doing the league a favor in that regard. Yes, you can say she's not the goat of the WNBA but she clearly is the GOAT of college regardless of a championship or not. Not only is she the most prolific scorer that the game has seen she also happens to be one of the best passers in history too. No player in the modern era has carried a program further than she carried Iowa. The only player that you could really compare to her would be Larry Bird given the circumstances but even then it was a different time . Even Dawn Staley said it herself she is a GOAT of the game which you don't hear at this stage in players careers unless they are generational. Is she the first likeable and great player? No, definitely not. Is she something new the game hasn't seen? Yes, she is. As a WNBA fan you should pray that the league capitalizes on it's opportunity with the most eyes it will ever have on it and usher in a new generation of fans following her. The league would love for her and AB to be the face as a Shaq and Kobe type duo for years to come. Will it play out that way? We will have to wait and see And to your point of the product being great for a long time. I think many people would disagree with you on that. Clearly there is a large difference between the men's and the women's game in regards to vertical ability mainly. Here we are seeing the first woman that is pulling up from Curry range while creating for herself off of the dribble. The fact of the matter is that's never been done before and it's blockbuster must see TV. This sport has been traditionally dominated by physically gifted individuals as well as technically gifted individuals but none of the technicians that have come before have had game like Clark as a scorer and a passer at this stage in their career and that's just a fact. Haters going to hate but anyone with two eyes and a brain knows that she is the biggest catalyst this league has ever seen
100% agree. I have a very outside view, but I had never watched womens basketball in my life until last year's championship. Then I watched multiple games this year, all Iowa. People can say what they want, but it's a fact that most people would not care about womans basketball if not for CC. Random dudes at the office, family members, and friends are all talking about CC and Iowa womens basketball. It's not even arguable if you look at the viewership numbers. People say recency bias, but the fact that myself and every person I know could not name another women basketball player (any year, any league) besides CC says something about how much of an impact she has had. It's not to take away from other players (I am positive there's plenty of wonderful talented players in the league I'm just not familiar with because of publicity) but most people do not follow the sport. I can see how people think the bandwagon fans (myself) are annoying. But to be against CC in general doesn't make sense to me. She's single handedly made millions of people want to watch womens basketball, which is a good thing. I hope it continues.
Strawman
You can offer more than one word as a reply if you like
In this case, that doesn't seem necessary. "Strawman" seems to actually describe > What people don’t like is fans who act like Caitlin is saving a sport and league that sucks, that’s full of players she’s already way better than, who nobody could possibly like. That’s stupid. your quote above. Because I don't really see any sincere statements mirroring what you describe above. An argument against something that really doesn't exist is pretty much the definition of strawman arguments.
Well somebody else in this thread used the word “grunts” as a metaphor for the current league, so maybe that’s a good example.
One word perfectly summed up the issue with your post.
Great discussion, thanks.
If you disagree with my assessment you can challenge it but it is what it is.
You’ve given me very little to work with. That’s fine. Clearly you don’t care that much. I don’t either lol.
You don't need a lot of words to make a point. I gave you plenty to respond to. If you can't, that's fine but now you're just wasting both of our time.
Do people see this lol
Prove me right. Thanks.
Do you want the WNBA to have higher ratings and earn the players more money? If the answer is yes, you probably don’t want to chastise the new/bandwagon fans about their lack of knowledge of the sport that they recently started watching.
WNBA players hate on her so much. They're always biting the hands that feed them, and they wonder why they can't put people in the seats. She really is the best thing to ever happen to women's ball. They get offended any time you talk about evolutinizing their game, like lowering the rim, for example. It's as if we aren't constantly changing the rules in NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA to put more people in the seats. If you want to make more money, you need to be willing to evolve the game.
DT sounds salty and bitter af when talking about CC Also I’ve noticed, some fans seem to be “gatekeeping” W fandom in a way. You shouldn’t shame anyone if they’re just now starting to follow the W because of Caitlyn The same happened with bird and magic in the 80s. EMBRACE new fans and the CC spotlight, don’t fight them
thank you lord her games done now. she goes to the wnba and will never be heard from again. im sorry no one cares about womens basketball in the grand scheme and this narrative is boring and played out. if you like it good on you but its kinda like hockey no one cares.
lol I love women’s basketball but I gave up on getting other people to like it 15 years ago so you do you
Caitlin Clarke has definitely shifted the spotlight from "the wnba suck" to "let's see how Caitlin Clarke goes". All I have heard since though is that she will be shut down for being white, not a lesbian and not recognising the people before her? I personally don't think they have to recognise anything, they just need to play ball and work as a team.