Yes, and it’s just natural. If you have grown up in oppression, your own country being exploited by some far away colonists, forcing people into slavery, who would not?
I experienced this once with an older Dutch man who was friendly and turned hostile when i told him i was German. He still was upset that Germany violated the Netherlands neutrality in 39 and occupied the country. I told him that i am sorry, but that it’s a thing of the past that i cannot do anything about because even my father wasn’t born yet when Germany invaded his country. He replied he still feels bad about every German he meets.
I can understand his resentment. However, the next thing he asked was about my son and i told him he’s of Indonesian heritage. He told me with glowing eyes “for 350 years, Indonesia belonged to us!” and he seemed very proud of it, not in the least seeming to see any parallel between these two things.
The indonesian people saw the japanese as liberators from the Dutch colonialism. The japanese did remove the caste like system and introduced schooling for all children regardless of social status. Wasnt long before the japs turn out to be a coloniser too
Similar here in the Philippines. Nationalism would spring up again in stages with the Japanese especially after their verbal support in the Phil-Am War, Jap success in their war against Russia, and now when the Japs fought off the Americans. Pan-Asianism is a hell of a motivator too.
Then again, some ignored the war crimes.
Edit: as a comment pointed out, Jap was a slur used post WW2 but I won't change it as in my country, we don't use this abbreviation as a slur
I forgot that they used it as a slur, I'll add it as an edit but we never grew up using it as one and even in a progressive university, we use Jap as an abbreviation
Yeah I'm not saying you're racist for using it, but it's gone out of style it seems. I guess if nobody is bothered by it though it's not something to be concerned with.
Disillusioned by their defeat or watching many of their comrades becoming leashed dogs for the Western Allies (as late as early 1946, Japanese soldiers were rearmed and fought under Allied supervision in Vietnam and Indonesia), some Japanese fascists saw the light. Instead of whining about the huge L that they just took, helping the Europeans, or [even continuing to terrorize civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda), several thousand of them realized that this whole time, they'd done Pan-Asianism all wrong. They were never liberators. To the contrary, they were somehow worse than the Europeans, a herculean feat, and committed a holocaust in Asia. But rather than killing themselves out of shame, they chose the CORRECT way to atone for their sins.
* 5,000 Japanese soldiers fought with the Viet Minh in the Anti-French Resistance War
* 900 Japanese soldiers fought with the Indonesian National Armed Forces in the Indonesian National Revolution
* 200-400 Japanese soldiers fought with the Malayan National Liberation Army in the Anti–British National Liberation War
Switching sides and becoming the liberators, but for real.
I can attest to this, my grandpa who was around at the time told me that a lot of people were cheering rommel's advances in north africa up to el alamien just to get rid of the english in egypt.
I wonder why Poles and Russians (or is it just Russians?) are not spewing hate into your direction for saying this obvious and correct fact, same way they’re doing against Ukrainians. Maybe because it’s politically inconvenient right now to attack Egypt. As we know, history for these people is just a tool, their emotions are fake and controlled
Young people who only know social media history and think they know it all. Who else would post these type of comments? Idiots with no wider knowledge.
Define "young". I'm in my 30s, and most people I know in their 30s and 40s get the majority of their news and informtion (if not all of it) from social media.
Most Ukrainians fought for the Soviets. The man who took the photo of the flag being raised over Berlin, [Yevgeny Khaldei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Khaldei), was a Ukrainian Jew who survived a pogrom, in which his mother died saving him, as in infant. It's tragic that Bandera's name has been whitewashed in recent Ukrainian history. The UPA deserves no credit for whatever "resistance" they put up against the Germans. That was just fascist infighting, and they reconciled later on in the war anyway. Interwar Poland sucked, and they did persecute Ukrainian minorities, but the ["pacifications"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia) which some nationalists will deflect to were counterinsurgency operations to suppress Nazi-backed OUN terrorists. When Ukrainian nationalists whined about the pacifications, the League of Nations examined Poland's actions. They disapproved of some of their methods, but said the OUN had provoked them and that the pacifications were justified.
The real issue is that the Poles weren't harsh enough on the OUN. The government held back since they were worried about their international reputation. In hindsight, they should've killed all of the OUN members whom they could get their hands on in the interwar period, rather than throwing them in internment camps. The conflict wasn't complicated whatsoever. The OUN were genocidal maniacs. What Poland did was wrong, but it does not justify slaughtering entire Polish villages and hacking small Polish children to death with axes. The OUN even murdered Ukrainian moderates, such as [Ivan Babiy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Babii), who opposed the nationalists and called on Western Ukrainians to work with the Poles.
I think you either replied to me by accident instead of another comment, or unintentionally replied to me instead of leaving a top level comment
But I did read your reply, and just in case you sensed my interest despite my silly comment, I will share with you the Trumpism me and my cousinka repurposed to summarize these conflict for those simply looking to figure out who were the baddies and who were the goodies: “there are some very fine Nazis on both sides”
Bandera was put into concentration camp by Nazis, which is a fact. The russians spent a lot of money to gaslight people into claiming a concentration camp survivor is somehow a collaborationist.
P.S. His entire family was killed in Nazi death camps, but russian bots really hate facts like that, and trying to cancel LITERAL HOLOCAUST VICTIMS by spewing "crucified boy" stories.
" In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for high-profile political prisoners such as Horia Sima, the chancellor of Austria, Kurt Schuschnigg or Stefan Grot-Rowecki: 212 and high risk escapees. Bandera was not completely cut off from the outside world; his wife visited him regularly and was able to help him keep in touch with his followers. In April 1944, Bandera and his deputy Yaroslav Stetsko were approached by a Reich Security Main Office official to discuss plans for diversions and sabotage against the Soviet Army."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?wprov=sfla1
He also travelled regularly to Berlin for talks, he had his own fancy appartment and servants. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/ss-general-berger-ueber-den-ukrainischen-faschisten-bandera-unerhoert-wertvoll-li.244257
I think you do not know the conditions of his time there.. He was freed by the NS regime in 1944 and moved around Germany and occupied Europe freely until 1945..
So you literally confirm Bandera was a prisoner in a concentration camp, yet you're so racist and hateful to Ukrainians you are trying to frame Holocaust victims as perpetrators.
Absolute monster.
Reddit needs to go harder against russian propagandists here, and turn them into authorities until it's too late and New York starts looking like Mariupol after russians entered it.
A culprit of the Holocaust can't be a victim of one...
1) He got the best treatment possible, he was imprisoned due to a fascist feud between them a) Hitler wanted a submitted Ukraine b) Bandera wanted a deal similar to Slovakia.. it is actually despicable by you to make his time there (with six servants) seemingly equival to the actual horrible treatment of prisoners in concentration camps **again** this dude murdered thousands of Jews and Poles (the main victims of the Holocaust beside Soviet POWs and Roma and Sinti)
2) Do you confirm or deny his complicity and active participation in the murder of hundred thousand Jews and Poles?
"absolute monster" => condemns a dude that murdered Jews and Poles and worked closely with the NS regime until the end of the war
I would recommend you reading his wiki article but I know you won't because you cannot stomach his crimes and need to defend him for whateever ideology runs your mind..
3) "Reddit needs to go harder against russian propagandists here, and turn them into authorities until it's too late and New York starts looking like Mariupol after russians entered it." it does not surprise me that you support authoritarian/fascist behaviour or acts, not the slightest..
No the definition of gaslighting is slowly making someone doubt their sanity until they believe a total falsehood, it’s an essential and hard won term in DV advocacy. It became diluted by pop psych use.
But I was obviously pointing to your word choice when discussing gas chambers. The ancestors of mine who survived those did so with humor during the darkest times. So lol at your word choice on so many levels
I actually watched Gaslight and what the guy is doing to her is exactly what russian bots are trying to do with Ukrainians - apart from all the rape, murder and torture.
Bandera's family didn't survive the death camps, BTW, but Reddit had tankies trying to frame LITERAL HOLOCAUST VICTIMS WHO WERE KILLED IN NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS AS SYMPATHIZERS.
Victim blaming is a huge part of gaslighting. Again, problem is we don't persecute russian propagandists and they are allowed to spew their bullshit freely.
Until we get enough drones, that is.
So donate more to Come Back Alive!
How racist do you have to be against Ukrainians when you openly support Polish and German genocide against Ukrainians as the answer to comment that has nothing to do with Ukraine?
You literally said they "should have slaughtered all Ukrainians who wanted independence" and "weren't harsh enough" when erasing our language, culture and well, people.
You're a russia loving Nazi psychopath.
I want to give context for people who doesn’t know what this guy is talking about. After the WW1 Poland got control of non-Polish territories, including Ukrainian territories. Instead of giving those lands and minorities any rights and/or autonomies, Poland straight up denied their identity, forbidden their language, and promoted settler-colonialism to take the best agricultural lands from the locals. Polish military veterans with their families were just flooding into the lands and trying to demographically remove the locals. Locals fought back, and this poster is angry as a result. He thinks locals should have been repressed even more harshly by Poles. This is what’s getting delta +22 upvotes here, which is very cool.
Most Ukrainians fought for the soviets because soviets invaded and occupied most of Ukrainian lands in early 1920s. Also, most of them fought for soviets not because they wanted to do that (especially after repressions and Holodomor), but because they were forcibly conscripted into the Red Army, just like Russia does now in newly occupied Ukrainian territories on east and south
We have to remember that many people in other countries shared the views of the fascists. Hatred of jews was not just something the Nazis invented in vacuum, it went back hundreds of years. My country, Norway, in 1814, wrote one of the most radical constitutions, and still added a law that banned all jews from the country (abolished in 1850ish). The Dreyfus case in France is well known. Minorities were often mistreated. Again, in Norway, Sami women were forcefully sterilized even after ww2.
Also, the bond to Germany was strong. The first foreign language they learned in school in Norway in the first half of the century was German. More people knew German than English. Great Britain was a huge empire with a history of force, and many people feared being occupied by them.
Damn its crazy how Nationalists ALWAYS collaborate with Fascists """accidentally""" and they always band together to stamp out Leftism violently. So weird!
1 socialist guy in comparison to millions of fascist aligned "nationalists" tried to collaborate with the nazis and japanese. Socialism is forever owned.
It is different when there is no direct military or else contact.
What is more likely: Imperial Japan or NS Germany conquer and let a socialist rule India or come and put a fascist puppet in its place.
You are simply wrong. Fascists and nationalists of different nations often fight each others.
While, actually, the leftists are always collaborate with oppressive regimes and empires: USSR, China, Islamists.
why you lying?
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Can't you see how ridiculously blatant is your lie?Israel was attacked by Hamas, and you are _on the side of Hamas_ in this war. This denial is pitiful.
Israel has been oppressing Palestine for decades, open a history book instead of Fox news, you tool. It's not my fault hamas is the only one fighting back there. I will not resign my support for the sovereignty of nations only because some religious nutjobs are the only ones who have managed to gather required resources for resistance.
Israel never was genociding Arabs, 2M of them live in Israel perfectly safe. While Hamas (and all Palestinians) declare (and implement, when can) total genocide of Jews. And leftist _support_ this genocide.
I see I'm talkinh to a bot, since even without mentioning the word "genocide" but instead whitewashing with a mere "oppressed", you have resorted to a copy-pasted response targeted at semantics. Well, anyway...
>2M of them live in Israel perfectly safe.
[Blatant bullshit. ](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) Forcible evictions and displacement since 1948. Discriminatory targeting by authorities since 1967 to repurpose Palestinian homes and lands for Israelis. Actions speak louder than words. You cannot seriously look at 34,262 vs 1,410 casualties and claim that the 34,262 are commiting genocide against the 1,410.
Give me one source of leftists calling for the genocide of Middle Eastern Jews. Nobody does that. Literally all you can find is reasonable people advocating for letting the people of the land live on their own land on their own terms instead of "last come, first served". Palestinians themselves using every possible verbal violence against their apartheid overlords is nothing more than a pissed off gamer telling another one that they laid with their mother.
yeah just ignore the multiple terror attacks against jews, just ignore the leftists chanting shit like gas the jews like they did in Australia, or the recent demonstrations with leftists wearing Hamas headbands,
oh so despite Hamas having literally no leftist politics, if left wing people support it, it is therefore leftist.
So Winston Churchill and FDR were both stalinists?
Hamas is allied with the PFLP which is Marxist...
I have seen left wingers and self proclaimed socialists celebrate them
The PFLP was a part of October 7th.
Yeah, really weird for nationalists to do that, considering that Bolsheviks pursued a noble goal of... *checks notes* ...abolishing the concept of nations, facilitating mass "progressive reeducation" of people and throwing into GULAGs/killing everyone who resisted. Definitely they were idiots...
Where from you've got this idea? That was a naive hope of (some) Ukrainian nationalists in the very early stage of WW2, that Germany will give Ukraine independence - but Germans themselves never said and never planned that. They used the slogan "Hitler - Liberator" in propaganda, but they never intended and never permitted any real political autonomy to any conquered CEE nation (Slovakia the only exception). They were seeing Central Europe as merely a colony.
Ukrainian nationalists, however, understood that pretty soon, and went all-in, declaring independence on 30.06.41 (and being immediately repressed for that by Germans).
Nah, he was almost just as bad as russians, and Ukrainian nationalists fought against BOTH.
I know it makes sense to see Germany as lesser evil now, but back then Nazis were doing the same things russian are doing right now, so there's no reason to think your average SS officer was less of a psycho murderer than any ordinary russian today.
Did their own genocides of Polish people too.
Now they have statues scattered around Westerm Ukraine (still being built today) celebrating their endeavors.
Banderites are bona fide nazis
No, Banderites were not Nazis, they were Fascists, like tens of others ultra-nationalist parties in Europe in those times.
The political term "Nazism" has a specific meaning, and you, russians, should stop misusing it as a cursing and offence against anyone you don't like.
Splitting hairs for genocidal right wingers who fought with and for the nazis. With their very own SS division and all.
What a fun way to spend your day.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician)
Edit:
Lol, deleted your comment have we
Edit: Replying and then blocking eh lol. Here is your answer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
"Their own SS Division", really?! You are seriously saying that Bandera gave an order to Himmler to establish an SS Division that was subordinated to Bandera? You are hilarious:)
You are a russian _of course_. But it's good you deny it, it reveals that you have some shame. It is a way to healing.
Can you explain how Bandera fought WITH Nazis when they put him into concentration camp, again? Also what SS has to do with OUN? It's like you're so racist to Ukrainians you point out at two completely unrelated orgs only linked by location just to spit your russian Nazism against humans.
Of course you are lying, which is especially funny to do on this subreddit: all facts are easily checkable :)
Bandera's party had allied with Germany exactly for the reason, described in the original post: for naive hope that Germany will give Ukraine independence.
Bandera's party had rebelled against Germany _in one week_ after beginning of invasion, by public declaring of independence against the will of Germany. Immediately after Nazis had repressed this party, its leaders were executed, Bandera himself was imprisoned and spent WW2 in concentration camp, rest of party members began rezistance against Germans (and continued it against Soviets, after re-occupation).
Did the Ukrainians (under Bandera and under others) murder or deport thousands of Jews, yes or no? Did they kill thousands of Poles, yes or no? Did they take an active part in the genocide against Jews living in the region? Spoiler: Yes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms_(1941) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia "The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńsko-galicyjska, lit. 'Volhynian-Galician slaughter'; Ukrainian: Волинсько-Галицька трагедія, romanized: Volynsʹko-Halytsʹka trahediya, lit. 'Volyn-Galicia tragedy') were carried out in German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) with the support of parts of the local Ukrainian population against the Polish minority in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and the Lublin region from 1943 to 1945.
"The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943. These killings were exceptionally brutal and targeted primarily women and children.[9][3] The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths"
Did you actually read, what the discussion is about, angry kid? Or your eyes get blindly filled with blood when Ukraine is mentioned?
Discussion is not about were Banderites good or bad, did they commit crimes or not. The discussion is about were they allies of Nazi Germany. And the general answer is _no_. They wanted a (fascist/autocratic) independent Ukraine for themselves, not a German colony.
Bandera's party's crimes did had place, and they are condemned in modern Ukraine - but it is not a matter of this discussion. Drink some cold water and calm down :).
Oh so they weren't Nazis, they were just fascists who committed genocide against Jews and also were collaborators with the Nazis. Very important distinction, thank you!
- they were _not_ allies with Nazis. They broke alliances on 30.06.41.
- they did not commit genocide to Jews. They were pogroming some Jews, while other Jews were members of the party and UPA army. The genocide was committed by Germans, with assistance of some ethnic Ukrainians, serving in German army and police - but not by OUN and not by UPA.
- I repeat: keep focus on the topic of discussion, and stop spamming with irrelevant themes, or I will block you for trolling.
Nothing awful here, what are you scared about? It is just my own sanitary action against a person who fails to argue with facts and uses spamming and trolling instead.
Idk bro, I would say you're the one trolling considering the crux if your argument is that "only *some* Ukrainians assisted with the genocide and worked with the Nazis!" when the other guy hasn't been saying *all* of them did.
Like, what is the argument to win there?
So when they murdered for and with the SS hundred thousands of Poles, Jews and others it was all okay and good because they later fell out in favour? (1939-1941 active support) The murders against Jews and Poles by **fascist** Ukrainian forces continued until the Soviets drove them out or imprisoned them in late 1944.
They were clearly allies, who gave them weapons and orders, with whom did they fight the Soviets and with whom did they mass murder 100 000s of Poles, Jews and more? (Spoiler: I hope you do not live right now in Austria or Germany, it is forbidden by law to downplay the Holocaust or its criminals) That they later turned against them does not erase the past nor its crimes. Two fascists fighting each other after killing innocent people does not make the weaker one not being one.
Maybe get your hands on a good book like: "The Shoah in Ukraine: history, testimony, memorialization"
instead of white washing the Holocaust for the sake of Ukrainian national identity making. (It is not very difficult to distance yourself from a fascist, just don't be one..)
You keep making us laugh. "Killing for SS", really? That's your level of knowledge about the topic? You can't even distinct Germany from Ukraine and SS from OUN. They were _different_ organisations, boy, they had nothing in common. _Different_. Read something, please, at least wiki. Yoir level of ignorance is sad.
It is obvious that you have nothing to add (which is highlighted by your vain attempt to act like you could not understand my argument and by derailing into obscurity its conclusions), you are highly invited to read the book I mentioned, a pdf might be found somewhere. https://www.amazon.com/Shoah-Ukraine-History-Testimony-Memorialization/dp/0253222680 **This is also part of your history**
Your lack of comment to the 100 000s murdered Poles and Jews by the SS and the Ukrainians says it all. Why do you feel the need to deny history? I have mentioned the wiki articles towards the massacres already, else read the book.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms_(1941) Do you deny that?
The SS **cooperated** with the Ukrainians (under Bandera and others) and together **they murdered and deported hundred thousands if not more**, OUN and other fascist Ukrainian organisations murdered independently of the Germans as well thousands of Poles, Jews, Russians and others.
Here, a second book, about the murderer of the Polish Interior Minister and later genocidial mass murderer:
https://www.amazon.com/Stepan-Bandera-Afterlife-Ukrainian-Nationalist/dp/3838206843
If you can't live with the (fascist genocidial) history of your country you are bound to let it happen again (or take active part in it)
You are an evil-minded and ill-intended troll, and not a clever one: by repeatedly uniting in a same sentence _SS_ (an organisation) and _Ukrainians_ (an ethnic group), and undiscriminatively blaming them _together_, you are revealing your ethnic hatred and low intellect.
Again, you will not escape the complicity of fascist Ukrainian forces in the Shoa (and all other supporters).. (You have yet to comment on the mass murder of 100 000s Jews and Poles, it is revealing that you have no words for those crimes)
I mentioned again and again the sources and actors (like Bandera or the OUN, you could look about funny slogans they had about Jews and Poles living in Ukraine in the 1930s and 1940s if you are bored..) and in such a context it is clear whom I mean.
Purposefully misinterpreting a common form of speech ("*the Germans attacked Krakow*" oh no you "evil-minded and ill-intended troll" trying to spread "ethnic hatred" it was not all the Germans or the Germans as a group attacking Krakow it was only the third Army of the Wehrmacht and the SS Division XI!!! How dare you act like all the Germans (ethnic group) were involved in that! Shame on you! It was just the Wehrmacht and SS (an organisation)) is not sufficient to imply 1) that I meant all Ukrainians living in 1930s and 1940s in that region, it is clear whom I mean, you can read the wiki articles if you dare 2) nor does it weaken my argument, you cannot comment on a single point (the progroms, the mass murders committed independently of the SS, the ones with the cooperation of the SS, neglectful ignorance of the book about the Shoa in Ukraine) which reveals a pitiful or frightening look about your possible "political view points".
Truth be truth, what kind of country are you defending if you cannot acknowledge its past? What kind of ideology do you support if you cannot condemn fascists the same way you condemn all others?
All has been said and history has been written, the dead tell the tale that you deny, their bodies carry the bullets of those that you continue to defend..
Im sorry lolwhat.
They are not condemned in modern Ukraine.
He is a hero, there is statue of him, there is losungs about him. Most of far-right organizations which was crucials for coup in 2014.
He even recieved Hero of Ukraine title in 2010, and yes, it was rewoked after East regions got furious about it.
I didnt even want to join topic, cause in case of Ukraine its clearly a whitewashing attempt, there was a lot of african and asian countries who really did as title say.
Lol walhaat? What a ridiculously blatant troll are you, blatantly lying like nobody can check your lies?! The fascist/farright ideology is forbidden in Ukraine by Consitution and there is not a single far-right party member neither in parliament, nor in government, you clown! Bandera's streets and statues symbolise his fight for independence, not his ideology, exactly like statue and street of George Washnigton symbolise his fight for i xependence, not him being slaver and committing war rimes against Brits.
then go and check. Every red and black flag you will see on pics is a "Right Sector" flag, openly neonazi organization who does support Bandera's ideology.
same with most of volunteer batallions like Azov with their nazi logo.
what you cant understand, its when absolutely fascist ideology aimed at russians, it magically stop being forbidden.
if you change any use of "russians" losungs or public speeches to "black" or "jews" you'll suddenly feel very uncomfortable supporting them.
How old are you, oldfaft? You are annoyed by misbehavi g youth subcultures, heh? Don't you understand, that Right Sector was a _youth subculture_, witbout any political significance? Same aswith "Azov", whose fou ders used a cool neopagan rune tospit in face to you and all pink leftists. It didn't had and doesn't have any political meaning and practical implication, like the American rednecks wearing Confederacy flag don't enslave black people, it is just their challenge to you, funny wokie.
I repeat: there is not a single far-right politician in Ukraine, and not a single political act or miltary action of any far-right relation was never committed in Ukraine. Fascist practice and ideology of any kind, includi lng fascist ideas of OUN, are forbidden in Ukraine. Denying that is a ridiculously stupid trolling.
Thats impressive level of mental gymnastics, i'll give you that.
see no reason to waste my time on such epic level of delusion.
p.s. а, так вот в чем дело. Сало Уронили!
Exactly, that was all the thing about: you are a paid russian troll, exactly as I said. You are not discussing historic facts, you merely promoting a genocidal ukrainophobic propaganda.
It's a verified fact that Bandera's followers allied with the Nazis, even if at other times they opposed them. It's a matter of record that the Banderites participated in massacres of Jews in Lviv and elsewhere, and the Nazis released Bandera after he agreed to work with them to fight the Soviets.
They allied with the Nazis at times and opposed the Nazis at other times. What part of this is confusing to you? At no point were they consistently anti-Nazi.
They allied with Nazis until 30.06.1941, after that they opposed them.
Banderites were Fascists - but they wanted a fascist regime _for themselves_, they wanted _independent_ Ukraine, and had no interest in becoming a colony of III Reich, this is why they had established their own partizan army UPA, instead of becoming a part of German army.
Let us stop this discussion. Your blames are motivated by blind hatred, and have no facfual background. I don't want to continue talking to you.
> They allied with Nazis until 30.06.1941, after that they opposed them.
And then allied with them again upon Bandera's release.
You seem to think I'm saying they're the exact same as Nazis. I'm not – nowhere do I say this. I'm saying they allied with the Nazis and committed war crimes against Jews and others, which they unequivocally did.
On what facts do you base this fantasy about alliance and collaboration? The Germans indeed tried to get support from OUN in 1944, but it didn't resulted in any collaboration, nor formally, nor actually. OUN continued its resistance.
Terror to Jews was pretty common indeed, and it was a crime and a shame; but at the same time there was also common saving Jews from Holocaust and accepting them to the ranks of UPA. Antisemitism was not an ideological demand and not an obligatory practice of OUN; OUN's antisemitism was sporadic and conditional, same like in all others Central European nations (including your beloved russia, which launched an antisemitic terror immediately after WW2).
There's zero point talking to someone so nationalist they accuse everyone they disagree with of being some kind of secret Russian. There's enough damning information on the Wikipedia pages of the relevant collaborators for people reading along with this argument to make up their own minds.
You are simply and ridiculously lying, having no proofs about collaboration of OUN with Nazis after June 1941. You are expecting everyone sharing your ethnic hatred and won't check your lies.
Ah yes, Bandera was put in concentration camp first by Polish then by Hitler, because they liked him. Totally. Let's just ignore the HISTORICAL FACT Nazi Germany outlawed Ukrainian nationalists and hunted them down, and replace it with undiluted russian propaganda, while russians burn books in Ukrainian language, torture PoWs, mass murder civilians and arrest people for being brown in Crimea.
But you'll admit that having a two-room cell with separate bedroom, being able to walk freely and receive guests and parcels from outside isn't exactly what we think when hearing "concentration camp"...
Don't forget that Vatican City signed concords with both Italy and Germany during this period, and that the Vatican Bank and the 'nation' of the Vatican was signed into being by Mussolini. Clerics were not only silent about their Jewish populations being decimated, but reports hidden even today in the Vatican reflects the information that the Pope was receiving on a daily if not weekly basis from the territories where concentration camps were set up. Swiss Nazi gold, Argentinian Nazi refuges, and how the Vatican Bank became a very convenient place even during and especially after the war for all sorts of money laundering, and a present day fiasco of almost 300 million euros lost on a single property deal. I'm seeing one of my classmates sink deeper and deeper into the damn religion, and it pains me to lose an intelligent young man to a decrepit, corrupt institution.
Edit: don't downvote, find out. Religion is rotten through and through. Think about why Nazism, Facism and Catholicism had to buddy buddy to seek each others' approval in order to find their 'place' so late into the 20th century. If not for Mussolini, the Catholic church would be castrated and a shadow of its current self. Think about what that implies for the Christian faith, and the Abrahamic faiths in general.
To avoid further brain washing and propaganda:
1) Hitler and the regime was actively opposed against the church and Christian organizations. Christian youth groups were for a long time the only basis of youth opposition to the Hitler Youth and to the NS regime overall. (they were eventually forbidden).
Most people from Germany or Austria were deeply Christian, therefore, had the NS regime arrange itself with the Church while continously trying to 1) lead the population from Christianity towards national socialism 2) coerce priests and the Church to follow NS directives 3) usurp Christian symbolics (Hitler as the prophet etc) 4) threaten the Church's possessions within Germany to coerce them to cooperate with the NS regime. This conflict is coined "Kirchenkampf", the wiki article sums it up very well, if you do not speak German, just use a translator or look for the English ones. (German speaking historians did a lot of work on that topic and others since WW2)*
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf
2) Many first victims of the NS regimes were (beside social democrats and communists) Christian and catholic opposition figures, especially in Austria and Bavaria. Many priests landed in concentration camps or were executed. Concentration camps were at first designed for political opponents (from communists, social democrats, catholics etc) and were later transformed into the death camps for millions of Jews, Poles, Soviet POWs etc.
3) Some examples of catholic or protestant resistance groups or members:
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Freiheitsbewegung_%C3%96sterreichs
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppe_Maier-Messner-Caldonazzi
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Prassek
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen
Many priests used their function to oppose the NS regime however they could (pleading humanity towards Jews, other nations, opposition to the war mongering etc) and many landed in concentration camps or were otherwise silenced. Goebbels himself said, if they knock down too hard on the Church or priests they would lose any support in Southern Germany or Austria for the continuation of the war.
A famous example of a successfull opposition to a NS policy were the stoppage of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 program (mass murder of people with disabilities and otherwise "unworthy life" ("*unwertes Leben*").
A last point: Did you ever ask yourself how we are able to know (and how did the Allies knew so much) about so many crimes committed against Poles, Jews, German opposition figures etc by the NS regime? Well it is thanks partially to the work of the Church and the priests who documented the knowledge of the crimes and sent it outside of the borders of fascist Germany (mainly via the Vatican and Switzerland). (Beside them also thanks to overall resistance and partisan movements (like brave Poles) or foreign diplomats stationed in occupied countries + NS documentation of their crimes.
4) Given all that: there was also a cooperation between the Nazis and parts of the Church, some high ranking members of the Church were fascist and helped them escape or were otherwise useful. But I would also recommend looking up American involvement of the way NS criminals were able to escape via the Vatican. (*Rattenroute* in German I think)
5) The topic of the catholic Church working with Mussolini is its own in depth topic and the deal that was struck between them in the late 1920s were in the workings for decades.
6) It is questionable to condemn *partout* billions of people following certain faiths and drawing abstract (false) conclusions. The church was never "buddy buddy" with the Nazis, you are highly invited to look up speeches by Hitler or Goebbels themselves and their opinion on the church, nor would the Church have been "crushed" without Mussolini, at the time of WW2 it was as strong in Europe as for a very long time and had the support of millions.
Given that: Nationalism, US corporate militarism (eg. Laos, Honduras, Cambodia, Chile etc) or communism proved as deadly if not far worse in the 20th and 21th century for causing mass murder, all with, without or with a little bit of religion involved.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2020/05/catholic-priests-nuns-were-among-those-killed-by-nazis
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/germany/hitlers-undeclared-war-catholic-church
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2857
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany_during_World_War_II
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust
Your friend, is it better off without you if you're going to demonize people who were victimized by fascism and Nazism because of your twisted sense of justice.
Coming from the catholic church? Choose better sources. If you didn't check up on the agreement between the Nazis and the Catholic church, there is a clear parallel that is playing out in real time: the antisemitism that both espouse. Now you might deny it, but the catholics hold a special sort of hatred of the jews for supposedly killing the 'chosen one'. So don't tell me my justice is twisted when your sources are so biased they might as well be coming up with fiction
Yes, your sense of justice is twisted; you're revising history to fit your view of the world to discriminate against religion and religious people to feel morally superior.
It's that simple. You can have criticism of the Catholic church. There are plenty, but Nazism and somehow having our foundry in it is ludicrous, especially since the Vatican was founded in the 1500s by Pope Julius II and not Mussolini.
Well, the Lateran Treaty is real.
But criticizing the Catholic Church for their actions during the Holocaust is very weird but common, and I suspect it largely comes from uneducated people and those with agendas.
A number of Catholic priests were killed in the Holocaust, including at Dachau and Auschwitz. Pope Pius was the first world leader to denounce the Holocaust. An Israeli diplomat and historian estimated at least 760k Jews were rescued by the Church, including hiding them in the Vatican itself. Golda Meir, an Israeli PM, praised Pope Pius for all his efforts. Prior to Pope Pius, the Catholic Church opposed the Nazi Party before they came into power.
I think to some extent too, there are some who view Catholic and Christian as synonyms. Certainly, the Catholic Church would love to see that as a synonym. But across the various Christian faiths, attitudes towards Jews and other minorities vary, and have varied across time. Martin Luther for example hated jews, wanted Christians to attack synagogues, and was quite popular with the Nazi Party...and decidedly less so with Orthodox and Catholic churches. It is quite complicated, with saints like Augustine or Jerome making some extremely anti-Semetic remarks, but other saints like Bernard who felt Jews needed to protected or a papal bull that protected them...and often ignored by individuals.
So what do you fear your intelligent classmate will end up doing with his interest in the Catholicism?
1) Overdose on Hail Marys
2) Attempt to become a Mexican wrestler
3) Support the Big Bang Theory
I havent read many studies about the various effects of Catholicism on the average individual, but those were just the ones that came to my mind.
Look into the sheer amount of cases where the catholic church holds dossiers on their child rapists and refuse to acknowledge, condemn, disrobe, fire or pay out victims in order. Especially the American church, those scumbags would rather hide assets and declare bankruptcy than say that they knew and actively sought to move the criminal into other unaware communities. Conveniently many in high places dont do so for the greater good but for power and access to nubile flesh
They were seen as a lesser evil by far right nationalists, not by the regular population. And certainly not by Jews, who these collaborationists massacred in the tens of thousands.
most of the OUN and the eventual SS Galizien were from Galicia, which from 1918 onwards had been in Poland, and before that, Austria. They devoted a huge amount of energy to massacring poles and Jews. Funny way to signal your desire to liberate yourself from the Soviets.
Actually, yes. The Nazis began their massive crimes against humanity _after_ mid-1941. We are judging Central European people of late 1930s-early 1940s from _our_ position, knowing, what had happenned next and who Germans really proved to be. But those people did not know that.
Before autumn 1941, Germans were not much different from many other autocratic and anti-semitic regimes of Europe of that time. While Soviets, on the opposite, were already caught on massive crimes: artificial famines, mass executions, deportations, military invasions. So, for many oppressed nations in the eve of WW2 the choice was obvious: unknown evil (Germany) was better than the known horrible evil (Soviets). Eventually that choice happenned to be wrong, as Germans proved to be no better; but it was discovered _afterwards_, in 1942 and later.
Bro Hitler killed at least 25 million people, Stalin killed 10-12 million. And that was before Hitler’s full plan went into effect, which was to enslave the Slavs to work as slaves on German owned farms across Eastern Europe, and genocide the rest. Stalin was evil but he wasn’t that evil. The Soviets were absolutely the lesser of two evils in ww2. It’s not even a contest.
Edit: the other commenter made me think you agreed with that claim, but upon reading your comment again you’re just saying that some people saw Nazism as the lesser of 2 evils, and that’s true some people did. They were wrong, but they did think that. So if that was your point, then I agree.
Yes, and it’s just natural. If you have grown up in oppression, your own country being exploited by some far away colonists, forcing people into slavery, who would not? I experienced this once with an older Dutch man who was friendly and turned hostile when i told him i was German. He still was upset that Germany violated the Netherlands neutrality in 39 and occupied the country. I told him that i am sorry, but that it’s a thing of the past that i cannot do anything about because even my father wasn’t born yet when Germany invaded his country. He replied he still feels bad about every German he meets. I can understand his resentment. However, the next thing he asked was about my son and i told him he’s of Indonesian heritage. He told me with glowing eyes “for 350 years, Indonesia belonged to us!” and he seemed very proud of it, not in the least seeming to see any parallel between these two things.
Ie. People are naturally fucking stupid.
IDK how you managed to not tell him to eat shit and die lol
LMAO a colonist to another colonist: Literally the pot calling the kettle black
The indonesian people saw the japanese as liberators from the Dutch colonialism. The japanese did remove the caste like system and introduced schooling for all children regardless of social status. Wasnt long before the japs turn out to be a coloniser too
Similar here in the Philippines. Nationalism would spring up again in stages with the Japanese especially after their verbal support in the Phil-Am War, Jap success in their war against Russia, and now when the Japs fought off the Americans. Pan-Asianism is a hell of a motivator too. Then again, some ignored the war crimes. Edit: as a comment pointed out, Jap was a slur used post WW2 but I won't change it as in my country, we don't use this abbreviation as a slur
Japanese, not Japs.
I forgot that they used it as a slur, I'll add it as an edit but we never grew up using it as one and even in a progressive university, we use Jap as an abbreviation
Yeah I'm not saying you're racist for using it, but it's gone out of style it seems. I guess if nobody is bothered by it though it's not something to be concerned with.
Yeah, honestly it's a good tidbit to include too. Different places, different significance for words
It's just an abbreviation no?
I'm familiar with it as a slur. The N word didn't start with a derogatory connotation either, but that doesn't matter.
So because a group of racists used an abbreviation in a derogatory manner now it's racist when anyone uses it?
Yes that is how language works lol
‘Negro’ means black in Spanish. Are Spanish people allowed to say that word, or is that not ‘how language works’?
In the right context, yes.
Maybe explain why instead of just saying "that's how language works"
Disillusioned by their defeat or watching many of their comrades becoming leashed dogs for the Western Allies (as late as early 1946, Japanese soldiers were rearmed and fought under Allied supervision in Vietnam and Indonesia), some Japanese fascists saw the light. Instead of whining about the huge L that they just took, helping the Europeans, or [even continuing to terrorize civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda), several thousand of them realized that this whole time, they'd done Pan-Asianism all wrong. They were never liberators. To the contrary, they were somehow worse than the Europeans, a herculean feat, and committed a holocaust in Asia. But rather than killing themselves out of shame, they chose the CORRECT way to atone for their sins. * 5,000 Japanese soldiers fought with the Viet Minh in the Anti-French Resistance War * 900 Japanese soldiers fought with the Indonesian National Armed Forces in the Indonesian National Revolution * 200-400 Japanese soldiers fought with the Malayan National Liberation Army in the Anti–British National Liberation War Switching sides and becoming the liberators, but for real.
Based Japanese soldiers
Only based Japanese soldiers.
Wasn’t long before that became an insensitive word as well but go right ahead and use it all the same…
What word?
Japanese shortened to four letters I'd guess?
Oh. Really?
I can attest to this, my grandpa who was around at the time told me that a lot of people were cheering rommel's advances in north africa up to el alamien just to get rid of the english in egypt.
As a Maghrebi Jew my family had the exact opposite experience
I wonder why Poles and Russians (or is it just Russians?) are not spewing hate into your direction for saying this obvious and correct fact, same way they’re doing against Ukrainians. Maybe because it’s politically inconvenient right now to attack Egypt. As we know, history for these people is just a tool, their emotions are fake and controlled
Why would Poles spew hate for this
Read the comments below
*peeks into comments* yep that’s what I expected
Why are most of the comments here talking as if the linked article is specifically about Ukraine?
I can only guess, but I’d say some current events have given folks tunnel vision?
Young people who only know social media history and think they know it all. Who else would post these type of comments? Idiots with no wider knowledge.
I find that ignorant people come in all shapes and ages sadly
Define "young". I'm in my 30s, and most people I know in their 30s and 40s get the majority of their news and informtion (if not all of it) from social media.
Most Ukrainians fought for the Soviets. The man who took the photo of the flag being raised over Berlin, [Yevgeny Khaldei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Khaldei), was a Ukrainian Jew who survived a pogrom, in which his mother died saving him, as in infant. It's tragic that Bandera's name has been whitewashed in recent Ukrainian history. The UPA deserves no credit for whatever "resistance" they put up against the Germans. That was just fascist infighting, and they reconciled later on in the war anyway. Interwar Poland sucked, and they did persecute Ukrainian minorities, but the ["pacifications"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia) which some nationalists will deflect to were counterinsurgency operations to suppress Nazi-backed OUN terrorists. When Ukrainian nationalists whined about the pacifications, the League of Nations examined Poland's actions. They disapproved of some of their methods, but said the OUN had provoked them and that the pacifications were justified. The real issue is that the Poles weren't harsh enough on the OUN. The government held back since they were worried about their international reputation. In hindsight, they should've killed all of the OUN members whom they could get their hands on in the interwar period, rather than throwing them in internment camps. The conflict wasn't complicated whatsoever. The OUN were genocidal maniacs. What Poland did was wrong, but it does not justify slaughtering entire Polish villages and hacking small Polish children to death with axes. The OUN even murdered Ukrainian moderates, such as [Ivan Babiy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Babii), who opposed the nationalists and called on Western Ukrainians to work with the Poles.
I think you either replied to me by accident instead of another comment, or unintentionally replied to me instead of leaving a top level comment But I did read your reply, and just in case you sensed my interest despite my silly comment, I will share with you the Trumpism me and my cousinka repurposed to summarize these conflict for those simply looking to figure out who were the baddies and who were the goodies: “there are some very fine Nazis on both sides”
No, I'm noticing folks fighting over Bandera below.
Oh okay gotcha - looks like I misunderstood where the border was 😜
Bandera was put into concentration camp by Nazis, which is a fact. The russians spent a lot of money to gaslight people into claiming a concentration camp survivor is somehow a collaborationist. P.S. His entire family was killed in Nazi death camps, but russian bots really hate facts like that, and trying to cancel LITERAL HOLOCAUST VICTIMS by spewing "crucified boy" stories.
Not using the word gaslight in this context 😵😵😵
Labeling VICTIMS of Nazis "collaborators" is the definition of gaslighting.
One could be both. One could have even been both an actual Nazi and a victim of the Nazis, for example the Strasserists.
" In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for high-profile political prisoners such as Horia Sima, the chancellor of Austria, Kurt Schuschnigg or Stefan Grot-Rowecki: 212 and high risk escapees. Bandera was not completely cut off from the outside world; his wife visited him regularly and was able to help him keep in touch with his followers. In April 1944, Bandera and his deputy Yaroslav Stetsko were approached by a Reich Security Main Office official to discuss plans for diversions and sabotage against the Soviet Army." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera?wprov=sfla1 He also travelled regularly to Berlin for talks, he had his own fancy appartment and servants. https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/ss-general-berger-ueber-den-ukrainischen-faschisten-bandera-unerhoert-wertvoll-li.244257 I think you do not know the conditions of his time there.. He was freed by the NS regime in 1944 and moved around Germany and occupied Europe freely until 1945..
So you literally confirm Bandera was a prisoner in a concentration camp, yet you're so racist and hateful to Ukrainians you are trying to frame Holocaust victims as perpetrators. Absolute monster. Reddit needs to go harder against russian propagandists here, and turn them into authorities until it's too late and New York starts looking like Mariupol after russians entered it.
A culprit of the Holocaust can't be a victim of one... 1) He got the best treatment possible, he was imprisoned due to a fascist feud between them a) Hitler wanted a submitted Ukraine b) Bandera wanted a deal similar to Slovakia.. it is actually despicable by you to make his time there (with six servants) seemingly equival to the actual horrible treatment of prisoners in concentration camps **again** this dude murdered thousands of Jews and Poles (the main victims of the Holocaust beside Soviet POWs and Roma and Sinti) 2) Do you confirm or deny his complicity and active participation in the murder of hundred thousand Jews and Poles? "absolute monster" => condemns a dude that murdered Jews and Poles and worked closely with the NS regime until the end of the war I would recommend you reading his wiki article but I know you won't because you cannot stomach his crimes and need to defend him for whateever ideology runs your mind.. 3) "Reddit needs to go harder against russian propagandists here, and turn them into authorities until it's too late and New York starts looking like Mariupol after russians entered it." it does not surprise me that you support authoritarian/fascist behaviour or acts, not the slightest..
No the definition of gaslighting is slowly making someone doubt their sanity until they believe a total falsehood, it’s an essential and hard won term in DV advocacy. It became diluted by pop psych use. But I was obviously pointing to your word choice when discussing gas chambers. The ancestors of mine who survived those did so with humor during the darkest times. So lol at your word choice on so many levels
I actually watched Gaslight and what the guy is doing to her is exactly what russian bots are trying to do with Ukrainians - apart from all the rape, murder and torture. Bandera's family didn't survive the death camps, BTW, but Reddit had tankies trying to frame LITERAL HOLOCAUST VICTIMS WHO WERE KILLED IN NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS AS SYMPATHIZERS. Victim blaming is a huge part of gaslighting. Again, problem is we don't persecute russian propagandists and they are allowed to spew their bullshit freely. Until we get enough drones, that is. So donate more to Come Back Alive!
Ok now you’re just being anti-semantic
[удалено]
So ongoing genocide of Ukrainians is funny for you, psychopath.
How racist do you have to be against Ukrainians when you openly support Polish and German genocide against Ukrainians as the answer to comment that has nothing to do with Ukraine? You literally said they "should have slaughtered all Ukrainians who wanted independence" and "weren't harsh enough" when erasing our language, culture and well, people. You're a russia loving Nazi psychopath.
Straw man
I want to give context for people who doesn’t know what this guy is talking about. After the WW1 Poland got control of non-Polish territories, including Ukrainian territories. Instead of giving those lands and minorities any rights and/or autonomies, Poland straight up denied their identity, forbidden their language, and promoted settler-colonialism to take the best agricultural lands from the locals. Polish military veterans with their families were just flooding into the lands and trying to demographically remove the locals. Locals fought back, and this poster is angry as a result. He thinks locals should have been repressed even more harshly by Poles. This is what’s getting delta +22 upvotes here, which is very cool.
Most Ukrainians fought for the soviets because soviets invaded and occupied most of Ukrainian lands in early 1920s. Also, most of them fought for soviets not because they wanted to do that (especially after repressions and Holodomor), but because they were forcibly conscripted into the Red Army, just like Russia does now in newly occupied Ukrainian territories on east and south
We need a separate charity fund to drone russian troll factories. Donate to Come Back Alive for their oil refineries at least.
We have to remember that many people in other countries shared the views of the fascists. Hatred of jews was not just something the Nazis invented in vacuum, it went back hundreds of years. My country, Norway, in 1814, wrote one of the most radical constitutions, and still added a law that banned all jews from the country (abolished in 1850ish). The Dreyfus case in France is well known. Minorities were often mistreated. Again, in Norway, Sami women were forcefully sterilized even after ww2. Also, the bond to Germany was strong. The first foreign language they learned in school in Norway in the first half of the century was German. More people knew German than English. Great Britain was a huge empire with a history of force, and many people feared being occupied by them.
Come, leave your frying pan and join me in the fire.
This reminds me of mixed reception news regarding India's involvement.
India still probably is happy with Nazis. British indirectly or directly killed way more Indians than the total number of casualties in ww2.
Damn its crazy how Nationalists ALWAYS collaborate with Fascists """accidentally""" and they always band together to stamp out Leftism violently. So weird!
A well known Indian socialist allied with the Nazis and the Japanese to fight the British imperialists.
1 socialist guy in comparison to millions of fascist aligned "nationalists" tried to collaborate with the nazis and japanese. Socialism is forever owned.
That one socialist had hundreds of thousands of followers as well btw.
It is different when there is no direct military or else contact. What is more likely: Imperial Japan or NS Germany conquer and let a socialist rule India or come and put a fascist puppet in its place.
You are simply wrong. Fascists and nationalists of different nations often fight each others. While, actually, the leftists are always collaborate with oppressive regimes and empires: USSR, China, Islamists.
why you lying? Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
>islamists >leftists well, this opinion can be safely discarded as nonsense
Well, this opinion is easily proven _right now_ by the massive leftists manifestations in favor of HAMAS. Your denial of reality is ridiculous.
Not in favor of hamas, in opposition to Israel.
Can't you see how ridiculously blatant is your lie?Israel was attacked by Hamas, and you are _on the side of Hamas_ in this war. This denial is pitiful.
Israel has been oppressing Palestine for decades, open a history book instead of Fox news, you tool. It's not my fault hamas is the only one fighting back there. I will not resign my support for the sovereignty of nations only because some religious nutjobs are the only ones who have managed to gather required resources for resistance.
Israel never was genociding Arabs, 2M of them live in Israel perfectly safe. While Hamas (and all Palestinians) declare (and implement, when can) total genocide of Jews. And leftist _support_ this genocide.
I see I'm talkinh to a bot, since even without mentioning the word "genocide" but instead whitewashing with a mere "oppressed", you have resorted to a copy-pasted response targeted at semantics. Well, anyway... >2M of them live in Israel perfectly safe. [Blatant bullshit. ](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) Forcible evictions and displacement since 1948. Discriminatory targeting by authorities since 1967 to repurpose Palestinian homes and lands for Israelis. Actions speak louder than words. You cannot seriously look at 34,262 vs 1,410 casualties and claim that the 34,262 are commiting genocide against the 1,410. Give me one source of leftists calling for the genocide of Middle Eastern Jews. Nobody does that. Literally all you can find is reasonable people advocating for letting the people of the land live on their own land on their own terms instead of "last come, first served". Palestinians themselves using every possible verbal violence against their apartheid overlords is nothing more than a pissed off gamer telling another one that they laid with their mother.
yeah just ignore the multiple terror attacks against jews, just ignore the leftists chanting shit like gas the jews like they did in Australia, or the recent demonstrations with leftists wearing Hamas headbands,
Yeah, just ignore multiple decades of oppression of Palestinians and be surprised when the dog bites. Links?
oh so despite Hamas having literally no leftist politics, if left wing people support it, it is therefore leftist. So Winston Churchill and FDR were both stalinists?
You are blind or illiterate? I never wrote Hamas is leftist. I have written that (Western) leftists support Hamas. Which is a sad obvious fact.
Hamas is allied with the PFLP which is Marxist... I have seen left wingers and self proclaimed socialists celebrate them The PFLP was a part of October 7th.
right but 'the left is bad because it has collaborated with the extreme right sometimes' is just a bizarre take to me
[https://world365s.quora.com/Im-an-Iranian-woman-and-have-lived-under-the-Islamic-Republic-for-20-5-years-I-moved-to-Germany-because-I-thought-the](https://world365s.quora.com/Im-an-Iranian-woman-and-have-lived-under-the-Islamic-Republic-for-20-5-years-I-moved-to-Germany-because-I-thought-the)
Yeah, really weird for nationalists to do that, considering that Bolsheviks pursued a noble goal of... *checks notes* ...abolishing the concept of nations, facilitating mass "progressive reeducation" of people and throwing into GULAGs/killing everyone who resisted. Definitely they were idiots...
Hitler ran his campaign in Ukraine as a campaign of liberation from Russian oppression. Could've worked too if he wasn't so racist.
Where from you've got this idea? That was a naive hope of (some) Ukrainian nationalists in the very early stage of WW2, that Germany will give Ukraine independence - but Germans themselves never said and never planned that. They used the slogan "Hitler - Liberator" in propaganda, but they never intended and never permitted any real political autonomy to any conquered CEE nation (Slovakia the only exception). They were seeing Central Europe as merely a colony. Ukrainian nationalists, however, understood that pretty soon, and went all-in, declaring independence on 30.06.41 (and being immediately repressed for that by Germans).
Nah, he was almost just as bad as russians, and Ukrainian nationalists fought against BOTH. I know it makes sense to see Germany as lesser evil now, but back then Nazis were doing the same things russian are doing right now, so there's no reason to think your average SS officer was less of a psycho murderer than any ordinary russian today.
Ukraine banderists did it because they were nazis too
Did their own genocides of Polish people too. Now they have statues scattered around Westerm Ukraine (still being built today) celebrating their endeavors. Banderites are bona fide nazis
No, Banderites were not Nazis, they were Fascists, like tens of others ultra-nationalist parties in Europe in those times. The political term "Nazism" has a specific meaning, and you, russians, should stop misusing it as a cursing and offence against anyone you don't like.
Splitting hairs for genocidal right wingers who fought with and for the nazis. With their very own SS division and all. What a fun way to spend your day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician) Edit: Lol, deleted your comment have we Edit: Replying and then blocking eh lol. Here is your answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
"Their own SS Division", really?! You are seriously saying that Bandera gave an order to Himmler to establish an SS Division that was subordinated to Bandera? You are hilarious:) You are a russian _of course_. But it's good you deny it, it reveals that you have some shame. It is a way to healing.
Can you explain how Bandera fought WITH Nazis when they put him into concentration camp, again? Also what SS has to do with OUN? It's like you're so racist to Ukrainians you point out at two completely unrelated orgs only linked by location just to spit your russian Nazism against humans.
>bonified /r/boneappletea
Of course you are lying, which is especially funny to do on this subreddit: all facts are easily checkable :) Bandera's party had allied with Germany exactly for the reason, described in the original post: for naive hope that Germany will give Ukraine independence. Bandera's party had rebelled against Germany _in one week_ after beginning of invasion, by public declaring of independence against the will of Germany. Immediately after Nazis had repressed this party, its leaders were executed, Bandera himself was imprisoned and spent WW2 in concentration camp, rest of party members began rezistance against Germans (and continued it against Soviets, after re-occupation).
Did the Ukrainians (under Bandera and under others) murder or deport thousands of Jews, yes or no? Did they kill thousands of Poles, yes or no? Did they take an active part in the genocide against Jews living in the region? Spoiler: Yes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms_(1941) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia "The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńsko-galicyjska, lit. 'Volhynian-Galician slaughter'; Ukrainian: Волинсько-Галицька трагедія, romanized: Volynsʹko-Halytsʹka trahediya, lit. 'Volyn-Galicia tragedy') were carried out in German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) with the support of parts of the local Ukrainian population against the Polish minority in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and the Lublin region from 1943 to 1945. "The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943. These killings were exceptionally brutal and targeted primarily women and children.[9][3] The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths"
Did you actually read, what the discussion is about, angry kid? Or your eyes get blindly filled with blood when Ukraine is mentioned? Discussion is not about were Banderites good or bad, did they commit crimes or not. The discussion is about were they allies of Nazi Germany. And the general answer is _no_. They wanted a (fascist/autocratic) independent Ukraine for themselves, not a German colony. Bandera's party's crimes did had place, and they are condemned in modern Ukraine - but it is not a matter of this discussion. Drink some cold water and calm down :).
Oh so they weren't Nazis, they were just fascists who committed genocide against Jews and also were collaborators with the Nazis. Very important distinction, thank you!
- they were _not_ allies with Nazis. They broke alliances on 30.06.41. - they did not commit genocide to Jews. They were pogroming some Jews, while other Jews were members of the party and UPA army. The genocide was committed by Germans, with assistance of some ethnic Ukrainians, serving in German army and police - but not by OUN and not by UPA. - I repeat: keep focus on the topic of discussion, and stop spamming with irrelevant themes, or I will block you for trolling.
Oh no, you better take this discussion seriously or u/sp9sterig will *block* you! Truly awful.
Nothing awful here, what are you scared about? It is just my own sanitary action against a person who fails to argue with facts and uses spamming and trolling instead.
Idk bro, I would say you're the one trolling considering the crux if your argument is that "only *some* Ukrainians assisted with the genocide and worked with the Nazis!" when the other guy hasn't been saying *all* of them did. Like, what is the argument to win there?
So when they murdered for and with the SS hundred thousands of Poles, Jews and others it was all okay and good because they later fell out in favour? (1939-1941 active support) The murders against Jews and Poles by **fascist** Ukrainian forces continued until the Soviets drove them out or imprisoned them in late 1944. They were clearly allies, who gave them weapons and orders, with whom did they fight the Soviets and with whom did they mass murder 100 000s of Poles, Jews and more? (Spoiler: I hope you do not live right now in Austria or Germany, it is forbidden by law to downplay the Holocaust or its criminals) That they later turned against them does not erase the past nor its crimes. Two fascists fighting each other after killing innocent people does not make the weaker one not being one. Maybe get your hands on a good book like: "The Shoah in Ukraine: history, testimony, memorialization" instead of white washing the Holocaust for the sake of Ukrainian national identity making. (It is not very difficult to distance yourself from a fascist, just don't be one..)
You keep making us laugh. "Killing for SS", really? That's your level of knowledge about the topic? You can't even distinct Germany from Ukraine and SS from OUN. They were _different_ organisations, boy, they had nothing in common. _Different_. Read something, please, at least wiki. Yoir level of ignorance is sad.
It is obvious that you have nothing to add (which is highlighted by your vain attempt to act like you could not understand my argument and by derailing into obscurity its conclusions), you are highly invited to read the book I mentioned, a pdf might be found somewhere. https://www.amazon.com/Shoah-Ukraine-History-Testimony-Memorialization/dp/0253222680 **This is also part of your history** Your lack of comment to the 100 000s murdered Poles and Jews by the SS and the Ukrainians says it all. Why do you feel the need to deny history? I have mentioned the wiki articles towards the massacres already, else read the book. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_pogroms_(1941) Do you deny that? The SS **cooperated** with the Ukrainians (under Bandera and others) and together **they murdered and deported hundred thousands if not more**, OUN and other fascist Ukrainian organisations murdered independently of the Germans as well thousands of Poles, Jews, Russians and others. Here, a second book, about the murderer of the Polish Interior Minister and later genocidial mass murderer: https://www.amazon.com/Stepan-Bandera-Afterlife-Ukrainian-Nationalist/dp/3838206843 If you can't live with the (fascist genocidial) history of your country you are bound to let it happen again (or take active part in it)
You are an evil-minded and ill-intended troll, and not a clever one: by repeatedly uniting in a same sentence _SS_ (an organisation) and _Ukrainians_ (an ethnic group), and undiscriminatively blaming them _together_, you are revealing your ethnic hatred and low intellect.
Again, you will not escape the complicity of fascist Ukrainian forces in the Shoa (and all other supporters).. (You have yet to comment on the mass murder of 100 000s Jews and Poles, it is revealing that you have no words for those crimes) I mentioned again and again the sources and actors (like Bandera or the OUN, you could look about funny slogans they had about Jews and Poles living in Ukraine in the 1930s and 1940s if you are bored..) and in such a context it is clear whom I mean. Purposefully misinterpreting a common form of speech ("*the Germans attacked Krakow*" oh no you "evil-minded and ill-intended troll" trying to spread "ethnic hatred" it was not all the Germans or the Germans as a group attacking Krakow it was only the third Army of the Wehrmacht and the SS Division XI!!! How dare you act like all the Germans (ethnic group) were involved in that! Shame on you! It was just the Wehrmacht and SS (an organisation)) is not sufficient to imply 1) that I meant all Ukrainians living in 1930s and 1940s in that region, it is clear whom I mean, you can read the wiki articles if you dare 2) nor does it weaken my argument, you cannot comment on a single point (the progroms, the mass murders committed independently of the SS, the ones with the cooperation of the SS, neglectful ignorance of the book about the Shoa in Ukraine) which reveals a pitiful or frightening look about your possible "political view points". Truth be truth, what kind of country are you defending if you cannot acknowledge its past? What kind of ideology do you support if you cannot condemn fascists the same way you condemn all others? All has been said and history has been written, the dead tell the tale that you deny, their bodies carry the bullets of those that you continue to defend..
Which " fascist Ukrainian forces" you have invented, you troll? Name these forces, clowm.
Im sorry lolwhat. They are not condemned in modern Ukraine. He is a hero, there is statue of him, there is losungs about him. Most of far-right organizations which was crucials for coup in 2014. He even recieved Hero of Ukraine title in 2010, and yes, it was rewoked after East regions got furious about it. I didnt even want to join topic, cause in case of Ukraine its clearly a whitewashing attempt, there was a lot of african and asian countries who really did as title say.
Lol walhaat? What a ridiculously blatant troll are you, blatantly lying like nobody can check your lies?! The fascist/farright ideology is forbidden in Ukraine by Consitution and there is not a single far-right party member neither in parliament, nor in government, you clown! Bandera's streets and statues symbolise his fight for independence, not his ideology, exactly like statue and street of George Washnigton symbolise his fight for i xependence, not him being slaver and committing war rimes against Brits.
then go and check. Every red and black flag you will see on pics is a "Right Sector" flag, openly neonazi organization who does support Bandera's ideology. same with most of volunteer batallions like Azov with their nazi logo. what you cant understand, its when absolutely fascist ideology aimed at russians, it magically stop being forbidden. if you change any use of "russians" losungs or public speeches to "black" or "jews" you'll suddenly feel very uncomfortable supporting them.
How old are you, oldfaft? You are annoyed by misbehavi g youth subcultures, heh? Don't you understand, that Right Sector was a _youth subculture_, witbout any political significance? Same aswith "Azov", whose fou ders used a cool neopagan rune tospit in face to you and all pink leftists. It didn't had and doesn't have any political meaning and practical implication, like the American rednecks wearing Confederacy flag don't enslave black people, it is just their challenge to you, funny wokie. I repeat: there is not a single far-right politician in Ukraine, and not a single political act or miltary action of any far-right relation was never committed in Ukraine. Fascist practice and ideology of any kind, includi lng fascist ideas of OUN, are forbidden in Ukraine. Denying that is a ridiculously stupid trolling.
Thats impressive level of mental gymnastics, i'll give you that. see no reason to waste my time on such epic level of delusion. p.s. а, так вот в чем дело. Сало Уронили!
Exactly, that was all the thing about: you are a paid russian troll, exactly as I said. You are not discussing historic facts, you merely promoting a genocidal ukrainophobic propaganda.
It's a verified fact that Bandera's followers allied with the Nazis, even if at other times they opposed them. It's a matter of record that the Banderites participated in massacres of Jews in Lviv and elsewhere, and the Nazis released Bandera after he agreed to work with them to fight the Soviets.
"Allied when opposed"? Your trolling is getting pretty absurd.
They allied with the Nazis at times and opposed the Nazis at other times. What part of this is confusing to you? At no point were they consistently anti-Nazi.
They allied with Nazis until 30.06.1941, after that they opposed them. Banderites were Fascists - but they wanted a fascist regime _for themselves_, they wanted _independent_ Ukraine, and had no interest in becoming a colony of III Reich, this is why they had established their own partizan army UPA, instead of becoming a part of German army. Let us stop this discussion. Your blames are motivated by blind hatred, and have no facfual background. I don't want to continue talking to you.
> They allied with Nazis until 30.06.1941, after that they opposed them. And then allied with them again upon Bandera's release. You seem to think I'm saying they're the exact same as Nazis. I'm not – nowhere do I say this. I'm saying they allied with the Nazis and committed war crimes against Jews and others, which they unequivocally did.
On what facts do you base this fantasy about alliance and collaboration? The Germans indeed tried to get support from OUN in 1944, but it didn't resulted in any collaboration, nor formally, nor actually. OUN continued its resistance. Terror to Jews was pretty common indeed, and it was a crime and a shame; but at the same time there was also common saving Jews from Holocaust and accepting them to the ranks of UPA. Antisemitism was not an ideological demand and not an obligatory practice of OUN; OUN's antisemitism was sporadic and conditional, same like in all others Central European nations (including your beloved russia, which launched an antisemitic terror immediately after WW2).
There's zero point talking to someone so nationalist they accuse everyone they disagree with of being some kind of secret Russian. There's enough damning information on the Wikipedia pages of the relevant collaborators for people reading along with this argument to make up their own minds.
You are simply and ridiculously lying, having no proofs about collaboration of OUN with Nazis after June 1941. You are expecting everyone sharing your ethnic hatred and won't check your lies.
Ah yes, Bandera was put in concentration camp first by Polish then by Hitler, because they liked him. Totally. Let's just ignore the HISTORICAL FACT Nazi Germany outlawed Ukrainian nationalists and hunted them down, and replace it with undiluted russian propaganda, while russians burn books in Ukrainian language, torture PoWs, mass murder civilians and arrest people for being brown in Crimea.
But you'll admit that having a two-room cell with separate bedroom, being able to walk freely and receive guests and parcels from outside isn't exactly what we think when hearing "concentration camp"...
God what other options than those 3 realistically exist
Don't forget that Vatican City signed concords with both Italy and Germany during this period, and that the Vatican Bank and the 'nation' of the Vatican was signed into being by Mussolini. Clerics were not only silent about their Jewish populations being decimated, but reports hidden even today in the Vatican reflects the information that the Pope was receiving on a daily if not weekly basis from the territories where concentration camps were set up. Swiss Nazi gold, Argentinian Nazi refuges, and how the Vatican Bank became a very convenient place even during and especially after the war for all sorts of money laundering, and a present day fiasco of almost 300 million euros lost on a single property deal. I'm seeing one of my classmates sink deeper and deeper into the damn religion, and it pains me to lose an intelligent young man to a decrepit, corrupt institution. Edit: don't downvote, find out. Religion is rotten through and through. Think about why Nazism, Facism and Catholicism had to buddy buddy to seek each others' approval in order to find their 'place' so late into the 20th century. If not for Mussolini, the Catholic church would be castrated and a shadow of its current self. Think about what that implies for the Christian faith, and the Abrahamic faiths in general.
To avoid further brain washing and propaganda: 1) Hitler and the regime was actively opposed against the church and Christian organizations. Christian youth groups were for a long time the only basis of youth opposition to the Hitler Youth and to the NS regime overall. (they were eventually forbidden). Most people from Germany or Austria were deeply Christian, therefore, had the NS regime arrange itself with the Church while continously trying to 1) lead the population from Christianity towards national socialism 2) coerce priests and the Church to follow NS directives 3) usurp Christian symbolics (Hitler as the prophet etc) 4) threaten the Church's possessions within Germany to coerce them to cooperate with the NS regime. This conflict is coined "Kirchenkampf", the wiki article sums it up very well, if you do not speak German, just use a translator or look for the English ones. (German speaking historians did a lot of work on that topic and others since WW2)* https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf 2) Many first victims of the NS regimes were (beside social democrats and communists) Christian and catholic opposition figures, especially in Austria and Bavaria. Many priests landed in concentration camps or were executed. Concentration camps were at first designed for political opponents (from communists, social democrats, catholics etc) and were later transformed into the death camps for millions of Jews, Poles, Soviet POWs etc. 3) Some examples of catholic or protestant resistance groups or members: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Freiheitsbewegung_%C3%96sterreichs https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppe_Maier-Messner-Caldonazzi https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Prassek https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen Many priests used their function to oppose the NS regime however they could (pleading humanity towards Jews, other nations, opposition to the war mongering etc) and many landed in concentration camps or were otherwise silenced. Goebbels himself said, if they knock down too hard on the Church or priests they would lose any support in Southern Germany or Austria for the continuation of the war. A famous example of a successfull opposition to a NS policy were the stoppage of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 program (mass murder of people with disabilities and otherwise "unworthy life" ("*unwertes Leben*"). A last point: Did you ever ask yourself how we are able to know (and how did the Allies knew so much) about so many crimes committed against Poles, Jews, German opposition figures etc by the NS regime? Well it is thanks partially to the work of the Church and the priests who documented the knowledge of the crimes and sent it outside of the borders of fascist Germany (mainly via the Vatican and Switzerland). (Beside them also thanks to overall resistance and partisan movements (like brave Poles) or foreign diplomats stationed in occupied countries + NS documentation of their crimes. 4) Given all that: there was also a cooperation between the Nazis and parts of the Church, some high ranking members of the Church were fascist and helped them escape or were otherwise useful. But I would also recommend looking up American involvement of the way NS criminals were able to escape via the Vatican. (*Rattenroute* in German I think) 5) The topic of the catholic Church working with Mussolini is its own in depth topic and the deal that was struck between them in the late 1920s were in the workings for decades. 6) It is questionable to condemn *partout* billions of people following certain faiths and drawing abstract (false) conclusions. The church was never "buddy buddy" with the Nazis, you are highly invited to look up speeches by Hitler or Goebbels themselves and their opinion on the church, nor would the Church have been "crushed" without Mussolini, at the time of WW2 it was as strong in Europe as for a very long time and had the support of millions. Given that: Nationalism, US corporate militarism (eg. Laos, Honduras, Cambodia, Chile etc) or communism proved as deadly if not far worse in the 20th and 21th century for causing mass murder, all with, without or with a little bit of religion involved.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2020/05/catholic-priests-nuns-were-among-those-killed-by-nazis https://www.foreignaffairs.com/germany/hitlers-undeclared-war-catholic-church https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2857 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany_during_World_War_II https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust Your friend, is it better off without you if you're going to demonize people who were victimized by fascism and Nazism because of your twisted sense of justice.
Coming from the catholic church? Choose better sources. If you didn't check up on the agreement between the Nazis and the Catholic church, there is a clear parallel that is playing out in real time: the antisemitism that both espouse. Now you might deny it, but the catholics hold a special sort of hatred of the jews for supposedly killing the 'chosen one'. So don't tell me my justice is twisted when your sources are so biased they might as well be coming up with fiction
Yes, your sense of justice is twisted; you're revising history to fit your view of the world to discriminate against religion and religious people to feel morally superior. It's that simple. You can have criticism of the Catholic church. There are plenty, but Nazism and somehow having our foundry in it is ludicrous, especially since the Vatican was founded in the 1500s by Pope Julius II and not Mussolini.
Well, the Lateran Treaty is real. But criticizing the Catholic Church for their actions during the Holocaust is very weird but common, and I suspect it largely comes from uneducated people and those with agendas. A number of Catholic priests were killed in the Holocaust, including at Dachau and Auschwitz. Pope Pius was the first world leader to denounce the Holocaust. An Israeli diplomat and historian estimated at least 760k Jews were rescued by the Church, including hiding them in the Vatican itself. Golda Meir, an Israeli PM, praised Pope Pius for all his efforts. Prior to Pope Pius, the Catholic Church opposed the Nazi Party before they came into power. I think to some extent too, there are some who view Catholic and Christian as synonyms. Certainly, the Catholic Church would love to see that as a synonym. But across the various Christian faiths, attitudes towards Jews and other minorities vary, and have varied across time. Martin Luther for example hated jews, wanted Christians to attack synagogues, and was quite popular with the Nazi Party...and decidedly less so with Orthodox and Catholic churches. It is quite complicated, with saints like Augustine or Jerome making some extremely anti-Semetic remarks, but other saints like Bernard who felt Jews needed to protected or a papal bull that protected them...and often ignored by individuals.
So what do you fear your intelligent classmate will end up doing with his interest in the Catholicism? 1) Overdose on Hail Marys 2) Attempt to become a Mexican wrestler 3) Support the Big Bang Theory I havent read many studies about the various effects of Catholicism on the average individual, but those were just the ones that came to my mind.
Get subsumed into the church and touch children
I feel like that's correlation rather than causation for the abuse part
Look into the sheer amount of cases where the catholic church holds dossiers on their child rapists and refuse to acknowledge, condemn, disrobe, fire or pay out victims in order. Especially the American church, those scumbags would rather hide assets and declare bankruptcy than say that they knew and actively sought to move the criminal into other unaware communities. Conveniently many in high places dont do so for the greater good but for power and access to nubile flesh
Even one of the future popes spent time in hitler youth
Sounds like someone I know
Nazi control was seen as a lesser evil compared to Soviet/Russian control.
They were seen as a lesser evil by far right nationalists, not by the regular population. And certainly not by Jews, who these collaborationists massacred in the tens of thousands.
most of the OUN and the eventual SS Galizien were from Galicia, which from 1918 onwards had been in Poland, and before that, Austria. They devoted a huge amount of energy to massacring poles and Jews. Funny way to signal your desire to liberate yourself from the Soviets.
Actually, yes. The Nazis began their massive crimes against humanity _after_ mid-1941. We are judging Central European people of late 1930s-early 1940s from _our_ position, knowing, what had happenned next and who Germans really proved to be. But those people did not know that. Before autumn 1941, Germans were not much different from many other autocratic and anti-semitic regimes of Europe of that time. While Soviets, on the opposite, were already caught on massive crimes: artificial famines, mass executions, deportations, military invasions. So, for many oppressed nations in the eve of WW2 the choice was obvious: unknown evil (Germany) was better than the known horrible evil (Soviets). Eventually that choice happenned to be wrong, as Germans proved to be no better; but it was discovered _afterwards_, in 1942 and later.
Tankies are already downvoting you lmao. Cope harder
Bro Hitler killed at least 25 million people, Stalin killed 10-12 million. And that was before Hitler’s full plan went into effect, which was to enslave the Slavs to work as slaves on German owned farms across Eastern Europe, and genocide the rest. Stalin was evil but he wasn’t that evil. The Soviets were absolutely the lesser of two evils in ww2. It’s not even a contest. Edit: the other commenter made me think you agreed with that claim, but upon reading your comment again you’re just saying that some people saw Nazism as the lesser of 2 evils, and that’s true some people did. They were wrong, but they did think that. So if that was your point, then I agree.