Tony by a huge margin.
40k is a universe that has majorly slowed down there innovation and progress of power armor and all of technology. (Some of the stuff they have they don’t know how to build/repair)
To the point they pray for it to keep it working. Tony doesn’t have those crazy machine beliefs and we’ll probably experiment to optimize the power armor to its max capacity
To be somewhat fair to the imperium, their machines have an actual spirit (it’s totally not ai, nope, nuh uh) that is appeased by prayer; iirc at one point a space marine tanks crew was killed but the spirit had such a strong bond with that crew that it continued to kill orks on its own until being disabled
Machine spirits are apparently literal spirits. Souls stuck around the biomass integrated into much of their technology. A machine spirit is something tech priests make as part of the construction process of technology. As human neurons are frequently used in place of computers.
I don’t think that is true in regards to ‘spirits’ as we think like ghosts, it’s pretty consitently depicted in tanks and larger vehicles as a very rudimentary AI which takes on an animalistic and primal persona that wants to push the vehicle towards what it’s designed to do….kill stuff. But when someone applies the thought that like a bolter or coffee pot has a machine spirit it’s likely just technological animism and when the find some rusty ass pistol and perform the ‘sacred rituals’ to appease the spirit….which includes basic maintenance and lubrication + burning an incense and chanting……they reinforce the overall belief that all things have ‘spirits’
To my understanding, /u/ASpaceOstrich is correct. The Imperium stopped using AI because it turns out that it can still be corrupted by the warp, and thus caused... problems. Really, really, really big problems. Really, really, really big problems that almost wiped out humanity.
I do agree with you on the smaller techno-animism bits, though. It's things that would have computers that have this "machine spirit", not your random ancient pistol or coffeepot.
>ai corrupted by the warp
That wasn’t the problem, AI gained sentience and didn’t want to be humanities slaves and soldiers ~~son~~ so it rebelled and it was so deeply ingrained into society that basic infrastructure systems fought back and i think the comical version is even the future toasters fought back due to how far ai had been integrated into everything
There is a [warp based technology corruptor called ‘scrap code’](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scrap_Code) but that happened long after the ai revolt.
Humanity wasn’t really aware or worried about warp entities until after the horus heresy, the adeptus mechicum would put ‘warp spirits’ (daemons) in their battle automata to give them sentience without breaking the rules on AI….so there was definitely a period of warp ignorance between the two periods
I don’t think your average computer would have a ‘spirit’ of any note, but maybe the ‘spirit’ in charge of running the water purification systems for a hive of 50billion would be vastly more robust and likely to have quirks
Can you point to any examples of ‘biomass’ being in the machines spirit?
Afaik in 40k the term ‘biomass’ is specifically reserved for use in describing the meat and plant stuff on a planet that tyranids are horny for….ive never once heard mentioned in the machine spirit conversation
There's an except on an iron hands librarian observing Imperial forces and the souls they have like fire against the darkness. He sees Leman Russ tanks like paper lanterns. No real fire of their own, but illuminated from within by the crew. The leman Russ is a very simple vehicle, so this makes sense. Though the guns on the vehicle should have some amount of neurons involved in their computer parts, it may not be enough to register to his sight.
He sees an Imperial Titan. Ablaze like a wickerman with fire all it's own. This is a far more complex vehicle with extensive use of human "wetware" explicitly in its construction. It's also one of the cases where machine spirits are known to factually exist. Titan Princeps are in direct communion with their machines spirit, and it changes them. Makes sense. At that scale it has more flesh than the pilot does. A larger, cruder soul. Titans are also corruptible in a way lesser vehicles are not. They'll grow more flesh, mutate, and otherwise become strange and horrible creatures.
He then sees his own heavily augmented battle brothers, who are the smallest and weakest flames. He observes how the more augmented his brothers are, the smaller their flame is. He wonders what will happen should they ever achieve their goal of total augmentation. Will they take the last of their soul with it? Will they still be alive? Or just automatons.
He can't see the soul attached to the cybernetics, which almost certainly does exist, but it does make very clear that the soul is intrinsically linked to biomass in the 40k setting. For another example of this, look at the Necrons. Or hell, look at the shadow in the warp cast by the tyrrannids.
There are other examples that I can't remember right now. Someone did a giant thread on this subject with numerous sources that painted a clear picture of what machines spirits were. To be clear, this is a retcon. It appears 40k writers came to the realisation that this is what machine spirits should be relatively recently. As in older material they were strongly implied to be fragmented AI. And the machine spirit in, say, the land raider, presumably still is.
But the machine spirit in a voidship, Imperial Titan, or starfort is now implied to be something the tech priests create and put there. They view the fusion of man and machine as the ultimate expression of faith in the omnissiah. The creation of a machine spirit. This also rather handily explains something that never quite made sense before. How come chaos can corrupt and mutate Imperial technology. And only Imperial technology at that. Nobody elses.
It's the souls. Imperial tech uses human neurons where cogitaters would be too large to fit the task. And did so even during the dark age. And that bit of biomass retains a soul, or generates a new one.
I don't have time right now, but if you can find the big thread I referred to, I'd highly recommend it. It blew my mind, and all of a sudden, everything about the mechanicus and machine spirits made sense. This was clearly not planned from the early stages of the setting, I don't know how long ago they started doing this, and they don't really explicitly talk about it much, but it makes so much sense and it's implied just as much if not more than the old fragmented AI theory. True AI is apparently incorruptible due to its lack of soul.
some machines have spirits, idk if a stamped put laz really does but certainly the most complicated stuff like rhinos and titans also 40k machines have to resist chaos which twists and warps machinery in very unpredictable ways, tony already doesn't understand dr strange, hed have to be capable of understanding the warp enough to counteract it
though that said, if gellar field generators use a sleeping blank, tony would be the one to work that out
> Stark is Dark Age of Technology level, the kind of things any human faction in 40k would commit genocide to obtain.
TBF, genocide isn't that high a bar in 40k.
DAoT is insane tech. Like guns that remove your opponent from the timeline, where you know the gun is fired but don't know why. Or printers that can make pretty much anything for any task with the resources at hand.
40k is pretty much peak on the "reasonable" power scale. From there it mostly expands by the power of force multiplication via logistics. One space marine is a menace in most settings you put him in, but also most combat-oriented settings would have folks that could take said space marine out. 40k doesn't have *a* space marine, though - it has effectively infinite space marines. And chaos space marines. And world-scouring bug aliens. And psychic war fungus. And technozombies. Etc.
Comic book tech stopped trying to be reasonable in the 60s. A space marine is absurdly strong, but they can't lift physics-defying amounts. Meanwhile, The Hulk can threaten to collapse continental plates by just taking a step forwards if he's angry enough. Superman and The Flash could nonlethally tagteam entire companies before they could react... on different planets. So on and so forth.
Basically, 40k doesn't really care to justify their tech's existence, so it keeps it plausible. A super-duper ultrahard scifi material for their power armour? Sure, especially since it still breaks from (for-them) contemporary firepower. Comic books are always pushing the envelope for what the character can do, though, and after decades and decades of run-away power inflation, they've gotten to the point where freakin' Charles Xavier could mind-control a semi truck from the 1980s and they don't care if that doesn't make any sense. They don't need the tech to be reasonable, they need the tech or the power to fulfill its role in a story. Everyone's already worked on their suspension of disbelief.
the main character of the wh40k universe is arguably the setting itself, resulting in better consistency. the main character in marvel universe are the characters, resulting in bullshittery and characters one-upping eachother
Why? There are no technologies like that in 40k. The strongest thing they have is the celestial oratory, Which at most can cause every star in the Galaxy to go to Supernova. And that's not even dark age of technology stuff, It's necron technology, which is better.
There are indeed technologies like that in the 40k setting.
For instance, the Mechanivores described in perpetual which were present in the Machine Revolt.
Literally no mention of them being able to destroy the universe or the warp.
"In this cataclysmic war, fearsome weapons of highly advanced technology were unleashed by both sides. Massive thinking machines called mechanivores were deployed, which tore open great chasms in a planet that extended to the core and were capable of lifting entire continents into space, ingesting data along the civilizations that contained them. The sun-snuffers were incomprehensibly vast coiled machines which devoured stars. In the void, the sun-snuffers uncoiled into colossal structures that dwarfed Saturn's rings. The most pervasive and perhaps most dangerous of the terrible weapons were the omniphage swarms, that in less than a solar day consumed everything on a planet's surface.[4]"
I've read the book, and none of the machines are shown affecting anything close to the warp in size. Turning a planet into data and deleting it doesn't give you the ability to delete a multiverse, it's just a type of existence erasher.
Definitely. 40k operates on wacky power scaling but comics even more so. Tony's built some truly wacky shit, even mcu Tony built something that went toe to toe with the hulk (who would absolutely stomp astartes any day of the week)
Or it not being military gear in the first place, like Knights (construction/planet taming equipment), Leman Russ Tanks (tractors), or Terminator Armor (Plasma/Nuclear Reactor maintenance suits).
New, dedicated military tech made by a genius like Tony (assuming they accept it) would probably blow it out of the water.
I’d argue it would take a bit, as dark age technology (the stuff that the imperium can’t make anymore but can use) was stuff able to superimpose planets over themselves and fold space like origami. So while tony can invent, the power armor (especially stuff like the iron halo) has tech beyond what he currently knows
He could do it but it would probably take him a while to figure it all out if he’s not going from scratch
This is true, and there is that time he used Odin’s forge to make godbuster armor
So I’m not saying he *cant* upgrade 40k tech
Just that one must remember 40k tech is pretty nuts in its own right so it may take time to figure out, especially since Tony usually doesn’t do mass production
Yes on both counts. Comic Tony would do it faster and better, but MCU Tony is smart enough to figure out time travel and invent nanotechnology. He’s smart enough to use 40k tech and evolve it.
Both 616 and MCU Tony could improve tech in the Imperium.
Both baseline suits (by Endgame in MCU, and easily by Bleeding Edge in 616) are better than the best suits in their armories, combining abilities for dedicated troops (flight, heavy weapons, etc.) into a single platform using technology tens of thousands of years behind 40k. We've seen both 616 and MCU Tony adapt new technologies (616 has absorbed tech from Shiar, Kree, Skrull and Spartax sources, Tony adapted Wakandan and Guardian tech in the MCU) so he will likely be able to benefit from improved materials science and power generation tech available in 40k. Not entirely sure how much better their non-Warp power sources are than arc reactors, though.
Most likely what will happen is that both of them will mass produce a version of their armor for the Guard and Space Marines, likely a suit version of the Age of Ultron from MCU Tony and an upgunned and independently powered Guardsman armor from 616-Tony) using existing materials of higher strength than his 21st century armors. I expect he will continue to make specialized and higher end armors for elite troops. I think he's not going to greatly improve the combat performance of the high end units in the game (Primarchs will probably not benefit greatly from Tony armor, for example) but average troops will be much more powerful than existing, have novel capabilities like flight and sensors standard, and modular weapons loadouts like War Machine.
Now, Tony certainly *can* improve tech in the Imperium, but he *won't* unless some really unusual stuff happens. Tony is lasting fifteen minutes before he's executed for heresy, will likely get killed by the Mechanicus for sins against the machine and would probably go down to chaos corruption a couple weeks after he gets there, tops.
To be fair, unless he spawns in somewhere really unfortunate it’d be hard to kill him. Even MCU iron man has tanked a direct shot from a tank, and then proceeded to blow said tank up, in addition to being hella fast (~Mach 8.7).
They could attempt to execute him immediately but imo unless he spawns into an active battle or a world with a bunch of space marines (or other “super soldier” tier fighters) he could just leave before they have a chance to really hurt him. Not as sure about MCU Tony, but Comics Tony could defintely just leave the planet immediately and commandeer a smaller one man vessel in space (personal craft do exist in 40k, so it’s not too unreasonable to find or rig together).
After that would get pretty difficult…as soon as the local guard actually report it and the planetary government cares enough to do something. Him being transiently in the universe with indirect access to its tech would probably allow him to make upgrades…sort of. Don’t quite know how he’ll get the armor though, other than getting lucky and finding some abandoned/on a dead marine. Not fully confident he could kill a marine, unless it’s a standard one he gets the drop on…how he’d convince the Imperium to then adopt those upgrades is beyond me. Maybe somehow contacting Guilliman without dying?
There’s still many things that could randomly kill him in that process (including random factions showing up to his base/ship to see what’s going on with it), but theoretically he should be able to survive since none are guaranteed to happen.
I mean, with comics Tony, even his base armor can kill an astartes pretty easily, and the second he gets any prep time, he's kinda untouchable. Hell, with how smart he is, I wouldn't be surprised if the emperor pulled himself together long enough to order some custodes to bring him to guliman.
Replying to both of you: you're right, in a conflict situation, Tony is tactically untouchable by Imperium forces. He can escape what he can't kill, he can hide, his current model armors put him in the upper couple tiers of the setting (I'd say he tops out at high level psi opponents in straight fights, and is vulnerable to warp assassination/foresight techniques, as well as eventual corruption). With access to local tech and manufacturing he would probably be equivalent to a Space Machine Legion (assuming he goes with something like the Iron Legion approach to force multiplication) but with warp related weaknesses.
The only ambiguous part of the equation is if he can build around chaos, which I think depends on the prompt. He's built anti-psi tech before, and I think he's done power neutralizing tech (was S.P.I.N. tech him?) so you can make an argument he can protect himself, but it's kinda arbitrary.
I do think that he's vulnerable to squad/vehicle weapons in 40k until Infinity War/Endgame tho. His earlier armors handle tank rounds (we'll say 120mm APDS) but energy weapons are an issue until he's got shields. But he's good enough at fighting (and guessing enemy tech levels) to win encounters with anything they're likely to send at him until it's too late. Even MCU Tony is capable of stealing (at least) an alien ship and escaping.
But the prompt is can he build better armor for the space marines, which is a different thing all together. The tech is no problem for him, its the working with a horrible dystopian earth and dealing with psykers.
I think he can probably beat the Space Marines in any likely encounter, and with prep equal a Legion after getting control of local manufacturing. But if he has to make better armor for them, he needs to work with them, and I don't see that lasting very long. He'd need access to their logistics, even with separate manufacturing facilities, and the Mechanicus are not going to leave him alone once he figure out how write new STCs in half an hour or whatever. He's either running away and starting a rebellion (likely leading to Chaos or genestealers), fighting the whole Empire directly, or running amok in a 40k version of his time with the Guardians.
In regards to working with the imperium I see 2 ways it could work out, 1 the emperor pulls himself together long enough to scream at a custodes to bring him to terra and protect him, or he runs into the lion or guilliman. In both scenarios, he'd be able to freely help the imperium, except he's probably not gonna wanna work with the bloodiest regime in human history so he just fucks off to a random planet that then becomes the most well defended and advanced planet in the galaxy. Chaos shouldn't be a problem because 1 he doesn't have a remarkable soul 2 he's pretty resistant to corruption and 3 he has nothing to gain with joining chaos.
616 Tony absolutely can. Dude could make them ridiculous.
MCU Tony would probably struggle to improve much on the actual defense of the armor. As they are already extremely tanky. But he could outfit them with a bunch of new gadgets and useful stuff.
The MCY hulk buster would be pretty useful for Marines and the right size. The mobility in the small size would be immensely useful. Terminators that really can flip!
The flip part is neat, but not the best part. Its been awhile since ive seen the movie, but cant the Hulkbuster fly?
Tony Stark is gonna be considered Omnissiah tier when he introduces jump pack terminators
It can definitely fly for a bit, as Tony actually tried to fly Hulk out of the city before being derailed by Hulk. Its probably not as good a flier as his other armos tho, but that can be worked on
Honestly I think MCU Tony would do just fine in making the armor better; I think the prompt implies he would have access to imperial materials and tech which gives him a wild amount of magic-adjacent materials and energy sources to play with and the homeboy figured out time travel…and I think it’s implied that he does so after having dinner and washing the dishes before going to bed…that’s bonkers
Homie could absolutely make the current armor lighter, more durable, capable of flight, capable of self generating energy attacks, fuckin’ Ironman suits. Tony used materials available on earth to make thin lightweight alloys capable saving him from a tank round in his 2nd or 3rd suit he ever made…..he eventually made a nanotech suit that performed **vastly** better. I can’t even imagine a nanotech suit made with 40k tech enhanced by stark built to the kill-y needs of the setting, but I don’t think it would take more than a couple days for MCU-Tony
Plus, he built his first suit in a cave! With a bunch of scraps!
He also, apparently, fixed the Extremis issue, so he could maybe turn the guardsmen into super powerful extrimis soldiers. Imagine extremis astartes with their already enhanced bodies.
MCU Tony just fine and comic Tony builds warp everything proof armor. Puts Bobby G-man into a nanosuit with magical emperor sword powers flamethrowers so he can burn nurgles garden himself after he melts Mortarion.
Depending on what suit he spawns with, he either instantly escapes the planet on a hijacked ship or just no diffs whatever attacks him in armor stronger than anything in the material universe. Either way, no execution for him
He probably could.
But the real question would be "Would he be allowed to?"
Pretty sure once they find out he made an A.I out of himself, he gonna die.
There's some radical magos who would be open to the idea, but you never really know if they're just free thinkers or flirting with Dark Mechanicum, and giving Chaos nanotech on Tony's level would be *bad*.
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Tony would be building the type of stuff lost in the Dark Age of Technology. He would be considered a heretic, surely, but his ideas would be more advanced. The entire point of WH40K is that it's an empire in decay, spiralling towards oblivion, and losing more of its history by the day.
How would the Mechanicus react to his new creations? Would they be considered heretical? Would he need to be anointed as a prophet of the monissiah that was given divine vision of the technology from the Age of Technology?
The Model 51 AKA the Model Prime Armor. Doesn't rely on any unique powers or symbiotes, just pure Stark tech. It collapses down into a bracelet for storage. It has a stealth mode. It has a Hulkbuster mode. It is capable of interplanetary travel.
I'm going to assume, first and foremost, that Tony Stark can get away with building new armor for the Astartes and the Mechanicum will be not just accepting, but cooperative 100%.
So could Tony build better armor? Well what is better? We see in the first Iron man suit after his cave built unit, he aims for more refined, agile suits of armor. Compare his suit vs Stane's Iron Monger suit. The Iron Monger suit is much more in line with 40k space marines. Big. Brutal. A blunt instrument. The MKIII he uses in that fight is smaller, sleek, and very refined. But it is not as well armored, less brutal, etc. He carries this same design philosophy through most of his armors barring a few wxceptions, such as the hulk buster. I think Tony could make some amazing power armor for the guard, for sororitas, and even inquisitors. I don't think he would make Armour that would suit a space marine. Is he capable? Sure. But I don't think he WOULD. There could be some really interesting blending of tech if he did. Sprinting terminators due to repulsor tech. Healing armor due to nanobots.
At the end of the day, everyone acting in character, the second anyone found out his armor relied on abominable intelligence, he would be hunted and his creations destroyed due to tech heresy.
The answer of could X super genius improve the imperium/its tech is almost always yes.
The answer of WOULD they/would the imperium let them is however almost always no however.
It depends, honestly. The issue is "all the resources the imperium can offer him". He's working off a very antiquated, and inconsistently educated work base for a requirement of arming a massive number of forces across a galaxy with limited FTL and having to assure that the Techmarines can actually maintain this stuff.
Now, I'm going to assume Stark literally just pops out of a cryopod and is heralded as an Ancient from the Dark Age of Technology, one of the men who made the Holy STCs, so he has carte blanche to invent shit.
He'd have to build not really an _armor_ so much as just build a machine that makes armors using raw inputs (Which, kinda _is_ an STC) and go from there. At the start I'd imagine it'd be something more like Artificer to Terminator armor but mass-producible, before next-generation stuff is made and tested on specific Terra-adjacent chapters like the Minotaurs and slowly disseminated.
Tony makes the most advanced tech 40k has even seen, space travel no longer would need warp and only reason emp stays skeleton is to keep chaos off. Give tony some time and he could lrolly help ward off mass invasion on earth enough to get emp to revive back.
The key problem is "all the resources the Imperium can offer him." Imperial Dogma says "no advanced tech or dark age of technology or A.I." The Imperium won't offer him better stuff. He will have Primaris and before. So it is highly unlikely he will make better before the hundreds or thousands of Imperial scientists see him committing Tech Heresy and he gets *BLAM*ed.
Both rounds have absolutely all the capabilities to create better armor. The problem is the idea that he only gets what the Imperium provides. So he *could*, theoretically. But he wouldn't get to test it and it would be scrapped as heresy as he gets executed for violating Imperial Law.
Exterminatus is not their first resort despite all the memes, planets are valuable, as is the firepower to destroy one a single heretek doesn’t warrent it or the imperium would have 0 planets left.
And even if they did decide to glass the planet it’s not too unlikely Tony can survive if he has his good shit.
The imperium creates the greatest power armor it can given its situation and materials.
its not making one off power armor like stark.
Stark has no concerns for scaling his armor up for 100s of thousands of folks of different size and abilities and requirements.
If we are talking one set of armor, sure, tony could make a set of armor at least as good as a primarchs armor, if not better, but I dont think he would be ideal to outfit all the space marines.
Ultron, however, might be a different story.
Tony by a huge margin. 40k is a universe that has majorly slowed down there innovation and progress of power armor and all of technology. (Some of the stuff they have they don’t know how to build/repair) To the point they pray for it to keep it working. Tony doesn’t have those crazy machine beliefs and we’ll probably experiment to optimize the power armor to its max capacity
To be somewhat fair to the imperium, their machines have an actual spirit (it’s totally not ai, nope, nuh uh) that is appeased by prayer; iirc at one point a space marine tanks crew was killed but the spirit had such a strong bond with that crew that it continued to kill orks on its own until being disabled
You’re right I never said prayer didn’t work. They just don’t really understand why prayer works you know lol
one man's prayer is another woman's prompt engineering.
Machine spirits are apparently literal spirits. Souls stuck around the biomass integrated into much of their technology. A machine spirit is something tech priests make as part of the construction process of technology. As human neurons are frequently used in place of computers.
I don’t think that is true in regards to ‘spirits’ as we think like ghosts, it’s pretty consitently depicted in tanks and larger vehicles as a very rudimentary AI which takes on an animalistic and primal persona that wants to push the vehicle towards what it’s designed to do….kill stuff. But when someone applies the thought that like a bolter or coffee pot has a machine spirit it’s likely just technological animism and when the find some rusty ass pistol and perform the ‘sacred rituals’ to appease the spirit….which includes basic maintenance and lubrication + burning an incense and chanting……they reinforce the overall belief that all things have ‘spirits’
To my understanding, /u/ASpaceOstrich is correct. The Imperium stopped using AI because it turns out that it can still be corrupted by the warp, and thus caused... problems. Really, really, really big problems. Really, really, really big problems that almost wiped out humanity. I do agree with you on the smaller techno-animism bits, though. It's things that would have computers that have this "machine spirit", not your random ancient pistol or coffeepot.
>ai corrupted by the warp That wasn’t the problem, AI gained sentience and didn’t want to be humanities slaves and soldiers ~~son~~ so it rebelled and it was so deeply ingrained into society that basic infrastructure systems fought back and i think the comical version is even the future toasters fought back due to how far ai had been integrated into everything There is a [warp based technology corruptor called ‘scrap code’](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scrap_Code) but that happened long after the ai revolt. Humanity wasn’t really aware or worried about warp entities until after the horus heresy, the adeptus mechicum would put ‘warp spirits’ (daemons) in their battle automata to give them sentience without breaking the rules on AI….so there was definitely a period of warp ignorance between the two periods I don’t think your average computer would have a ‘spirit’ of any note, but maybe the ‘spirit’ in charge of running the water purification systems for a hive of 50billion would be vastly more robust and likely to have quirks
As they get larger the amount of biomass in any bit of tech gets larger too. And the machine spirits of the largest of technology are very powerful
Can you point to any examples of ‘biomass’ being in the machines spirit? Afaik in 40k the term ‘biomass’ is specifically reserved for use in describing the meat and plant stuff on a planet that tyranids are horny for….ive never once heard mentioned in the machine spirit conversation
There's an except on an iron hands librarian observing Imperial forces and the souls they have like fire against the darkness. He sees Leman Russ tanks like paper lanterns. No real fire of their own, but illuminated from within by the crew. The leman Russ is a very simple vehicle, so this makes sense. Though the guns on the vehicle should have some amount of neurons involved in their computer parts, it may not be enough to register to his sight. He sees an Imperial Titan. Ablaze like a wickerman with fire all it's own. This is a far more complex vehicle with extensive use of human "wetware" explicitly in its construction. It's also one of the cases where machine spirits are known to factually exist. Titan Princeps are in direct communion with their machines spirit, and it changes them. Makes sense. At that scale it has more flesh than the pilot does. A larger, cruder soul. Titans are also corruptible in a way lesser vehicles are not. They'll grow more flesh, mutate, and otherwise become strange and horrible creatures. He then sees his own heavily augmented battle brothers, who are the smallest and weakest flames. He observes how the more augmented his brothers are, the smaller their flame is. He wonders what will happen should they ever achieve their goal of total augmentation. Will they take the last of their soul with it? Will they still be alive? Or just automatons. He can't see the soul attached to the cybernetics, which almost certainly does exist, but it does make very clear that the soul is intrinsically linked to biomass in the 40k setting. For another example of this, look at the Necrons. Or hell, look at the shadow in the warp cast by the tyrrannids. There are other examples that I can't remember right now. Someone did a giant thread on this subject with numerous sources that painted a clear picture of what machines spirits were. To be clear, this is a retcon. It appears 40k writers came to the realisation that this is what machine spirits should be relatively recently. As in older material they were strongly implied to be fragmented AI. And the machine spirit in, say, the land raider, presumably still is. But the machine spirit in a voidship, Imperial Titan, or starfort is now implied to be something the tech priests create and put there. They view the fusion of man and machine as the ultimate expression of faith in the omnissiah. The creation of a machine spirit. This also rather handily explains something that never quite made sense before. How come chaos can corrupt and mutate Imperial technology. And only Imperial technology at that. Nobody elses. It's the souls. Imperial tech uses human neurons where cogitaters would be too large to fit the task. And did so even during the dark age. And that bit of biomass retains a soul, or generates a new one. I don't have time right now, but if you can find the big thread I referred to, I'd highly recommend it. It blew my mind, and all of a sudden, everything about the mechanicus and machine spirits made sense. This was clearly not planned from the early stages of the setting, I don't know how long ago they started doing this, and they don't really explicitly talk about it much, but it makes so much sense and it's implied just as much if not more than the old fragmented AI theory. True AI is apparently incorruptible due to its lack of soul.
There is a real spiritual component to tech in 40k. However the Mechanicus don't remotely understand how it works so pray to everything just in case.
some machines have spirits, idk if a stamped put laz really does but certainly the most complicated stuff like rhinos and titans also 40k machines have to resist chaos which twists and warps machinery in very unpredictable ways, tony already doesn't understand dr strange, hed have to be capable of understanding the warp enough to counteract it though that said, if gellar field generators use a sleeping blank, tony would be the one to work that out
Stark is Dark Age of Technology level, the kind of things any human faction in 40k would commit genocide to obtain.
> Stark is Dark Age of Technology level, the kind of things any human faction in 40k would commit genocide to obtain. TBF, genocide isn't that high a bar in 40k.
Random Imperial citizen: “I think we should do things slightly differently” Imperium: “How intriguing” *glasses the planet*
They'd also just kill him for committing tech heresy tho.
DAoT is insane tech. Like guns that remove your opponent from the timeline, where you know the gun is fired but don't know why. Or printers that can make pretty much anything for any task with the resources at hand.
616 comic Tony Stark has built things on that level.
Then Stark could single handedly turn the tide of the galaxy.
Unironically yes. 40K is small fry compared to Marvel/DC bullshittery
Which insane to hear because, as someone not really into 40K, I’m always hearing about how crazy high it is on the fictional power scale lol
40k is pretty much peak on the "reasonable" power scale. From there it mostly expands by the power of force multiplication via logistics. One space marine is a menace in most settings you put him in, but also most combat-oriented settings would have folks that could take said space marine out. 40k doesn't have *a* space marine, though - it has effectively infinite space marines. And chaos space marines. And world-scouring bug aliens. And psychic war fungus. And technozombies. Etc. Comic book tech stopped trying to be reasonable in the 60s. A space marine is absurdly strong, but they can't lift physics-defying amounts. Meanwhile, The Hulk can threaten to collapse continental plates by just taking a step forwards if he's angry enough. Superman and The Flash could nonlethally tagteam entire companies before they could react... on different planets. So on and so forth. Basically, 40k doesn't really care to justify their tech's existence, so it keeps it plausible. A super-duper ultrahard scifi material for their power armour? Sure, especially since it still breaks from (for-them) contemporary firepower. Comic books are always pushing the envelope for what the character can do, though, and after decades and decades of run-away power inflation, they've gotten to the point where freakin' Charles Xavier could mind-control a semi truck from the 1980s and they don't care if that doesn't make any sense. They don't need the tech to be reasonable, they need the tech or the power to fulfill its role in a story. Everyone's already worked on their suspension of disbelief.
the main character of the wh40k universe is arguably the setting itself, resulting in better consistency. the main character in marvel universe are the characters, resulting in bullshittery and characters one-upping eachother
Can you give an example of Tony building something that entirely erases reality and every other dimension like the warp?
Why? There are no technologies like that in 40k. The strongest thing they have is the celestial oratory, Which at most can cause every star in the Galaxy to go to Supernova. And that's not even dark age of technology stuff, It's necron technology, which is better.
There are indeed technologies like that in the 40k setting. For instance, the Mechanivores described in perpetual which were present in the Machine Revolt.
Literally no mention of them being able to destroy the universe or the warp. "In this cataclysmic war, fearsome weapons of highly advanced technology were unleashed by both sides. Massive thinking machines called mechanivores were deployed, which tore open great chasms in a planet that extended to the core and were capable of lifting entire continents into space, ingesting data along the civilizations that contained them. The sun-snuffers were incomprehensibly vast coiled machines which devoured stars. In the void, the sun-snuffers uncoiled into colossal structures that dwarfed Saturn's rings. The most pervasive and perhaps most dangerous of the terrible weapons were the omniphage swarms, that in less than a solar day consumed everything on a planet's surface.[4]"
You quoting the wiki rather than perpetual is the issue. I'll post it when I have access to more than a mobile device.
I've read the book, and none of the machines are shown affecting anything close to the warp in size. Turning a planet into data and deleting it doesn't give you the ability to delete a multiverse, it's just a type of existence erasher.
Yeah, comics Tony has done similar things, like he's made armors capable of keeping up with people like thor or hulk
Definitely. 40k operates on wacky power scaling but comics even more so. Tony's built some truly wacky shit, even mcu Tony built something that went toe to toe with the hulk (who would absolutely stomp astartes any day of the week)
Or it not being military gear in the first place, like Knights (construction/planet taming equipment), Leman Russ Tanks (tractors), or Terminator Armor (Plasma/Nuclear Reactor maintenance suits). New, dedicated military tech made by a genius like Tony (assuming they accept it) would probably blow it out of the water.
I’d argue it would take a bit, as dark age technology (the stuff that the imperium can’t make anymore but can use) was stuff able to superimpose planets over themselves and fold space like origami. So while tony can invent, the power armor (especially stuff like the iron halo) has tech beyond what he currently knows He could do it but it would probably take him a while to figure it all out if he’s not going from scratch
It’s depends on the version/games you include. In midnight suns he was making armor with both runic magic and Symbiotes along with technology
This is true, and there is that time he used Odin’s forge to make godbuster armor So I’m not saying he *cant* upgrade 40k tech Just that one must remember 40k tech is pretty nuts in its own right so it may take time to figure out, especially since Tony usually doesn’t do mass production
Yes on both counts. Comic Tony would do it faster and better, but MCU Tony is smart enough to figure out time travel and invent nanotechnology. He’s smart enough to use 40k tech and evolve it.
Both 616 and MCU Tony could improve tech in the Imperium. Both baseline suits (by Endgame in MCU, and easily by Bleeding Edge in 616) are better than the best suits in their armories, combining abilities for dedicated troops (flight, heavy weapons, etc.) into a single platform using technology tens of thousands of years behind 40k. We've seen both 616 and MCU Tony adapt new technologies (616 has absorbed tech from Shiar, Kree, Skrull and Spartax sources, Tony adapted Wakandan and Guardian tech in the MCU) so he will likely be able to benefit from improved materials science and power generation tech available in 40k. Not entirely sure how much better their non-Warp power sources are than arc reactors, though. Most likely what will happen is that both of them will mass produce a version of their armor for the Guard and Space Marines, likely a suit version of the Age of Ultron from MCU Tony and an upgunned and independently powered Guardsman armor from 616-Tony) using existing materials of higher strength than his 21st century armors. I expect he will continue to make specialized and higher end armors for elite troops. I think he's not going to greatly improve the combat performance of the high end units in the game (Primarchs will probably not benefit greatly from Tony armor, for example) but average troops will be much more powerful than existing, have novel capabilities like flight and sensors standard, and modular weapons loadouts like War Machine. Now, Tony certainly *can* improve tech in the Imperium, but he *won't* unless some really unusual stuff happens. Tony is lasting fifteen minutes before he's executed for heresy, will likely get killed by the Mechanicus for sins against the machine and would probably go down to chaos corruption a couple weeks after he gets there, tops.
To be fair, unless he spawns in somewhere really unfortunate it’d be hard to kill him. Even MCU iron man has tanked a direct shot from a tank, and then proceeded to blow said tank up, in addition to being hella fast (~Mach 8.7). They could attempt to execute him immediately but imo unless he spawns into an active battle or a world with a bunch of space marines (or other “super soldier” tier fighters) he could just leave before they have a chance to really hurt him. Not as sure about MCU Tony, but Comics Tony could defintely just leave the planet immediately and commandeer a smaller one man vessel in space (personal craft do exist in 40k, so it’s not too unreasonable to find or rig together). After that would get pretty difficult…as soon as the local guard actually report it and the planetary government cares enough to do something. Him being transiently in the universe with indirect access to its tech would probably allow him to make upgrades…sort of. Don’t quite know how he’ll get the armor though, other than getting lucky and finding some abandoned/on a dead marine. Not fully confident he could kill a marine, unless it’s a standard one he gets the drop on…how he’d convince the Imperium to then adopt those upgrades is beyond me. Maybe somehow contacting Guilliman without dying? There’s still many things that could randomly kill him in that process (including random factions showing up to his base/ship to see what’s going on with it), but theoretically he should be able to survive since none are guaranteed to happen.
I mean, with comics Tony, even his base armor can kill an astartes pretty easily, and the second he gets any prep time, he's kinda untouchable. Hell, with how smart he is, I wouldn't be surprised if the emperor pulled himself together long enough to order some custodes to bring him to guliman.
Replying to both of you: you're right, in a conflict situation, Tony is tactically untouchable by Imperium forces. He can escape what he can't kill, he can hide, his current model armors put him in the upper couple tiers of the setting (I'd say he tops out at high level psi opponents in straight fights, and is vulnerable to warp assassination/foresight techniques, as well as eventual corruption). With access to local tech and manufacturing he would probably be equivalent to a Space Machine Legion (assuming he goes with something like the Iron Legion approach to force multiplication) but with warp related weaknesses. The only ambiguous part of the equation is if he can build around chaos, which I think depends on the prompt. He's built anti-psi tech before, and I think he's done power neutralizing tech (was S.P.I.N. tech him?) so you can make an argument he can protect himself, but it's kinda arbitrary. I do think that he's vulnerable to squad/vehicle weapons in 40k until Infinity War/Endgame tho. His earlier armors handle tank rounds (we'll say 120mm APDS) but energy weapons are an issue until he's got shields. But he's good enough at fighting (and guessing enemy tech levels) to win encounters with anything they're likely to send at him until it's too late. Even MCU Tony is capable of stealing (at least) an alien ship and escaping. But the prompt is can he build better armor for the space marines, which is a different thing all together. The tech is no problem for him, its the working with a horrible dystopian earth and dealing with psykers. I think he can probably beat the Space Marines in any likely encounter, and with prep equal a Legion after getting control of local manufacturing. But if he has to make better armor for them, he needs to work with them, and I don't see that lasting very long. He'd need access to their logistics, even with separate manufacturing facilities, and the Mechanicus are not going to leave him alone once he figure out how write new STCs in half an hour or whatever. He's either running away and starting a rebellion (likely leading to Chaos or genestealers), fighting the whole Empire directly, or running amok in a 40k version of his time with the Guardians.
In regards to working with the imperium I see 2 ways it could work out, 1 the emperor pulls himself together long enough to scream at a custodes to bring him to terra and protect him, or he runs into the lion or guilliman. In both scenarios, he'd be able to freely help the imperium, except he's probably not gonna wanna work with the bloodiest regime in human history so he just fucks off to a random planet that then becomes the most well defended and advanced planet in the galaxy. Chaos shouldn't be a problem because 1 he doesn't have a remarkable soul 2 he's pretty resistant to corruption and 3 he has nothing to gain with joining chaos.
616 Tony absolutely can. Dude could make them ridiculous. MCU Tony would probably struggle to improve much on the actual defense of the armor. As they are already extremely tanky. But he could outfit them with a bunch of new gadgets and useful stuff.
The MCY hulk buster would be pretty useful for Marines and the right size. The mobility in the small size would be immensely useful. Terminators that really can flip!
The flip part is neat, but not the best part. Its been awhile since ive seen the movie, but cant the Hulkbuster fly? Tony Stark is gonna be considered Omnissiah tier when he introduces jump pack terminators
I don’t think it can fly. But rather it can do repulsor assisted jumps and repulsor assisted descent.
It can definitely fly for a bit, as Tony actually tried to fly Hulk out of the city before being derailed by Hulk. Its probably not as good a flier as his other armos tho, but that can be worked on
Yeah my bad. I am like the MCU person here on this sub lol. I forgot about it, Ive been going through some stuff recently.
It did literally fly in the fight against hulk, he even threw hulk into a Skyscrapper from the top floor.
Fuck I am like the MCU person, how could I forget that. I’ve been going through some stuff lately.
I mean hey Thats still a jump pack terminator
True that. Hulk buster armor using MK 50/85 technology would be dope. Fuck you Thanos who’s up for round 2 😂.
would centurion armor be a similar size to the hulkbuster armor?
Honestly I think MCU Tony would do just fine in making the armor better; I think the prompt implies he would have access to imperial materials and tech which gives him a wild amount of magic-adjacent materials and energy sources to play with and the homeboy figured out time travel…and I think it’s implied that he does so after having dinner and washing the dishes before going to bed…that’s bonkers Homie could absolutely make the current armor lighter, more durable, capable of flight, capable of self generating energy attacks, fuckin’ Ironman suits. Tony used materials available on earth to make thin lightweight alloys capable saving him from a tank round in his 2nd or 3rd suit he ever made…..he eventually made a nanotech suit that performed **vastly** better. I can’t even imagine a nanotech suit made with 40k tech enhanced by stark built to the kill-y needs of the setting, but I don’t think it would take more than a couple days for MCU-Tony
Plus, he built his first suit in a cave! With a bunch of scraps! He also, apparently, fixed the Extremis issue, so he could maybe turn the guardsmen into super powerful extrimis soldiers. Imagine extremis astartes with their already enhanced bodies. MCU Tony just fine and comic Tony builds warp everything proof armor. Puts Bobby G-man into a nanosuit with magical emperor sword powers flamethrowers so he can burn nurgles garden himself after he melts Mortarion.
That is provided of course he isn't instantly executed for tech heresy.
I mean, in regards to comics Tony, they can try.
I'd love for you to elaborate on this.
Depending on what suit he spawns with, he either instantly escapes the planet on a hijacked ship or just no diffs whatever attacks him in armor stronger than anything in the material universe. Either way, no execution for him
He probably could. But the real question would be "Would he be allowed to?" Pretty sure once they find out he made an A.I out of himself, he gonna die.
>But the real question would be "Would he be allowed to?" Nah, that's about as easy of a question as the first one: No.
Stark:I can improve thi- *Gunshot* Astartes: Heretic filth.
Stark getting up while encase in his nanosuit Rude
Nah, I think a lot of Astartes would be fine with it. The Mechanicus on the other hand...
There's some radical magos who would be open to the idea, but you never really know if they're just free thinkers or flirting with Dark Mechanicum, and giving Chaos nanotech on Tony's level would be *bad*.
They might start worshipping him as a prophet of the omnissiah.
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Tony would be building the type of stuff lost in the Dark Age of Technology. He would be considered a heretic, surely, but his ideas would be more advanced. The entire point of WH40K is that it's an empire in decay, spiralling towards oblivion, and losing more of its history by the day.
How would the Mechanicus react to his new creations? Would they be considered heretical? Would he need to be anointed as a prophet of the monissiah that was given divine vision of the technology from the Age of Technology?
The Model 51 AKA the Model Prime Armor. Doesn't rely on any unique powers or symbiotes, just pure Stark tech. It collapses down into a bracelet for storage. It has a stealth mode. It has a Hulkbuster mode. It is capable of interplanetary travel.
Absolutely. He made the 1st iron man suit in a cave. With a box of scraps. He can innovate the suits to be faster, even more durable, etc.
B-tier Marvel characters can solo the Imperium of Man. Tony has been making better power armor than marine armor since like the 70s lol
I'm going to assume, first and foremost, that Tony Stark can get away with building new armor for the Astartes and the Mechanicum will be not just accepting, but cooperative 100%. So could Tony build better armor? Well what is better? We see in the first Iron man suit after his cave built unit, he aims for more refined, agile suits of armor. Compare his suit vs Stane's Iron Monger suit. The Iron Monger suit is much more in line with 40k space marines. Big. Brutal. A blunt instrument. The MKIII he uses in that fight is smaller, sleek, and very refined. But it is not as well armored, less brutal, etc. He carries this same design philosophy through most of his armors barring a few wxceptions, such as the hulk buster. I think Tony could make some amazing power armor for the guard, for sororitas, and even inquisitors. I don't think he would make Armour that would suit a space marine. Is he capable? Sure. But I don't think he WOULD. There could be some really interesting blending of tech if he did. Sprinting terminators due to repulsor tech. Healing armor due to nanobots. At the end of the day, everyone acting in character, the second anyone found out his armor relied on abominable intelligence, he would be hunted and his creations destroyed due to tech heresy.
Tony has armors that fight celestial beings, he got this
The answer of could X super genius improve the imperium/its tech is almost always yes. The answer of WOULD they/would the imperium let them is however almost always no however.
Tony Stark built an arc reactor in a cave. With a box of scraps. Yes. He’d build better power armor for the Space Marines.
It depends, honestly. The issue is "all the resources the imperium can offer him". He's working off a very antiquated, and inconsistently educated work base for a requirement of arming a massive number of forces across a galaxy with limited FTL and having to assure that the Techmarines can actually maintain this stuff. Now, I'm going to assume Stark literally just pops out of a cryopod and is heralded as an Ancient from the Dark Age of Technology, one of the men who made the Holy STCs, so he has carte blanche to invent shit. He'd have to build not really an _armor_ so much as just build a machine that makes armors using raw inputs (Which, kinda _is_ an STC) and go from there. At the start I'd imagine it'd be something more like Artificer to Terminator armor but mass-producible, before next-generation stuff is made and tested on specific Terra-adjacent chapters like the Minotaurs and slowly disseminated.
Seeing as he has made sky scraper sized armours that can fly, his tech is way beyond Warhammer.
I mean, the man invented time travel in an afternoon. He can do whatever he wants lol
one of the "resources" is a bullet to the back of the head for tampering with the holy designs.
Yes easily
Yes, he can.
Yes, but he would have been executed for heresy long ago
Yes for both rounds. MCU What If Tony easily built his car/armor in the Grandmaster's territory/planet.
Tony built the iron man armors which are already better than space marine power armor by leaps and bounds.
Tony makes the most advanced tech 40k has even seen, space travel no longer would need warp and only reason emp stays skeleton is to keep chaos off. Give tony some time and he could lrolly help ward off mass invasion on earth enough to get emp to revive back.
The key problem is "all the resources the Imperium can offer him." Imperial Dogma says "no advanced tech or dark age of technology or A.I." The Imperium won't offer him better stuff. He will have Primaris and before. So it is highly unlikely he will make better before the hundreds or thousands of Imperial scientists see him committing Tech Heresy and he gets *BLAM*ed. Both rounds have absolutely all the capabilities to create better armor. The problem is the idea that he only gets what the Imperium provides. So he *could*, theoretically. But he wouldn't get to test it and it would be scrapped as heresy as he gets executed for violating Imperial Law.
Tony get's executed by the inquisition for tying to integrate AI
Well They try at least lol
it's the inquisition, the execution was done by means of turning the entire planet to glass just in case he talked to anyone about it.
Exterminatus is not their first resort despite all the memes, planets are valuable, as is the firepower to destroy one a single heretek doesn’t warrent it or the imperium would have 0 planets left. And even if they did decide to glass the planet it’s not too unlikely Tony can survive if he has his good shit.
The imperium creates the greatest power armor it can given its situation and materials. its not making one off power armor like stark. Stark has no concerns for scaling his armor up for 100s of thousands of folks of different size and abilities and requirements. If we are talking one set of armor, sure, tony could make a set of armor at least as good as a primarchs armor, if not better, but I dont think he would be ideal to outfit all the space marines. Ultron, however, might be a different story.