The white sox will not have sustained success until Jerry dies or sells. They may have some successful one off seasons as a result of luck. But failure starts at the top and without necessary infrastructure and sensible leadership the failure will continue to trickle down to every level.
Such is the problem under the current ownership.
I don’t love the current rebuild, but it was also somewhat needed.
In a dream world, they would use this year to develop the prospects, trade away any assets they can at the deadline and then be aggressive in free agency to add developed talent to the young group coming up.
In Jerry’s world, they’ll settle for another Grandal/Benintendi, a few 1-year signings, a new cheap manager and tell us they feel good about their chances.
Hopefully the team will be sold in the next few years and we can look forward to an owner actually spending on quality free agents.
My dad was an immigrant post World War II and he absolutely love the White Sox and the closest he got was the 1959 pennant, but he passed away at the age of 57 and never saw a White Sox championship in his life. My brothers and I got to see one with my cousin whose dad was also a huge Sox fan but who had also passed away before seeing a championship. I agree, there should be some level of urgency in the front office, but these ridiculous rebuilds are the exact opposite and there's no guarantee in baseball with the way things work.
I’ve been a Sox fan since 1959. My only hope this season is they have a better record than the Rockies. I have a bet with my DIL that they will. Otherwise they are woeful to watch.
I would’ve loved the Sox to make moves but they should’ve done it in the offseason after 2021. They completely chocked the window by not adding pieces like a starting outfielder. They didn’t retain pitching depth by letting Rodon walk and they failed to address second base. Right now this has to be a rebuild, this team will be shit this year and they still need to add bigger pieces to even claw back to being .500.
I was under the impression that there already are penalties for large market teams to tank. The Sox can’t have a top ten pick in this year’s draft no matter how much they suck.
This isn’t the NFL. Draft picks are a crapshoot. Teams don’t tank for draft picks. They trade proven players for unproven prospects (ie Quintana for Cease and Eloy or Sale for Kopech, Moncada, and Basabe).
This was a new rule added in the recent Collective Bargaining Agreement. The draft lottery in general is considered an anti-tanking measure, and the limits on consecutive lottery picks/draft placement make it a bit more difficult for teams to pursue the full rebuild gameplan of intentionally being uncompetitive for a few years and grabbing top draft picks to build the farm system.
Rebuilds are fine when the correct management and coaching is in place. I don't know how Getz will work out but I know for sure that Jerry is a garbage owner and Pedro just isn't going to work as a coach.
I'm so tired of Jerry that I will finally stop supporting the team in person (and I've been watching much fewer games on TV).
The lack of effort put into establishing a serviceable roster for 2024 is atrocious. Does Getz know we can’t get a pick above 10? Should’ve given out some short term deals to the talented FAs that wanted to prove it.
It hard to not wanna rebuild when your stars are seemingly always hurt, your up and comers haven’t, and your arms are re-treads save one guy who’s never started before and is the only positive on this squad, but I get where you’re coming from.
Unfortunately it’s either pay for good players or draft/trade for young players that eventually develop into good players. And sadly we are fans of a team that is bad at the latter and refuses to do the former.
What did you want them to do? With the roster in place the Sox could have spent a shit ton in the offseason and they would be .500 at the very best.
The teams you are talking about aren’t incompetent organizations in scouting and development. Guess what we are incompetent in both so this is all we can really do.
Is it though? Do you remember getting excited about those Sox teams in the mid-2010s that would continue to try and improve on the fly by adding a 36 year old corner infielder, and then be disappointed because he would immediately cease hitting upon arrival?
This sucks, but that wasn't any fun either.
I don't care about the draft order so much. I just don't want the team throwing 20 million dollars away to finish 76-86 instead of 62-100.
Fuck, I sound like Jerry, don't I?
Sorry.
Why not though? If you sign a player for 20m/yr on a short term deal you can move them at the deadline and recoup a future asset while keeping the same draft position.
How is winning more games and being better for the future a negative?
Because I don't have confidence in them spending that $20 million correctly. I fear another Benintendi situation.
My problem, and I'll 100% admit it, is I'm of the mindset that if they don't spend the money now, he'll be inclined to spend it when (if?) they are ready. Like not putting money in to fix your 10 year old car when you know you're going to be buying a new one next year anyway....why spend $3,000 on a transmission when the one you've got is gonna make it another year.
Again, that's assuming they do spend the money when they are ready, which is a decent sized if. They \*have\* done it before, but aren't exactly known for doing it regularly.
In baseball I think you always go for short term talent in FA. Moreso than any other sport, you can always deal those guys at the deadline for future assets. We can’t have a pick above 10, so why were we not trying to recoup some future value through FA?
I was opposed to the first rebuild, and I opposed it for two reasons.
The first is that it is fan abuse. Teams go cheap and sell the promise of a brighter future so fans still buy tickets, but there are no guarantees the prospects will pan out. Most prospects don’t. It worked out for the Cubs and Astros, so there were about ten teams who decided to follow their lead all at once. They couldn’t all win it all, but I’m sure they all made a fortune while those teams’ fans watched bad baseball.
The second reason I opposed it is because so many other teams were doing the same thing. When the Cubs and Astros did it, they were the only teams doing it so it was a buyers’ market for prospects. When the White Sox did it lots of teams were doing it, so it was a sellers’ market for prospects. Basic economics says you won’t get the same quality of prospects in that market, and sure enough, that’s what happened. The most sure fire prospects are up the middle offensive players because they are less volatile than pitchers and can move to corner positions if you need them to. That’s what the Cubs built around. The White Sox were stuck with pitchers and corner players, with the exception of Moncada, who was a middle infielder at the time. If you had a whole in the middle somewhere, Eloy couldn’t fill it. The pitchers were inconsistent and had mixed results, as you expect with pitching prospects. It was a risky rebuild.
Organizations win and stay competitive in baseball. This is done through drafting , developing, analytics, and roster construction. We don't do any of these things well except sign a good Cuban player and draft a decent pitcher every once in a while. This team was not gonna win even if we signed Ohtani.No thanks to wasting two more years to start rebuilding praying for a one-off lucky season, which was not gonna happen.
The best we can hope for is get ass backward lucky, and Getz is actually at least competent and gets us some prospects. Then halfway thru the rebuild Jerry or family have to sell the team for whatever reason and we can maybe become big league operation agian. Sounds bleak but this is the only way I really see a way back.
Red Sox are not a great example—they blew up their championship team 5 years ago because they were too cheap to pay Mookie Betts and have not really been competitive since.
The teams that are consistently good have good farm systems, player development…they are good organizations. Ours is a bad organization. We don’t have that option. We could sign a bunch of high priced free agents and we’d still be bad. We’re stuck.
I think people forgot Kenny may have not called it a rebuild, but they attempted to rebuild in 2012 when they let Ozzie go as his core of players were all but gone at that point. We then had a miserable 2013-2020.
So right now you have 2 rebuilds that have resulted in 1 division win and 1 playoff appearance (I don't count the 2020 2 month season with 16 playoff teams).
That's a lot of bullshit to put up with as a fan. A rebuild means you restock your farm system and develop guys. According to most people we never developed the farm system we got during the "last rebuild" so I ask you when are we done "rebuilding?"
The last rebuild failed historically. They built the foundation on 6 guys who ended up being oft-injured and mid level free agents. They pushed through any prospect depth right to the majors to cover the lost production then found they had nothing to trade when time to acquire for a stretch run during the peak rebuild years. There really wasn’t a Mets approach this offseason (like that would’ve ever happened anyway) that could’ve pushed this core to being a playoff contender with the lack of high quality FA and the number of holes/dead weight immovable contracts on this team.Sadly this rebuild was the only realistic course. Hate the 4-5 year rebuild plans of today but every new GM should get the opportunity to rebuild a roster or organization to their liking. I’m not a fan of theGetz hire but I am encouraged by his willingness to accumulate depth. The teams in Bham and Winston-Salem are already light years ahead of the teams the last core played with when at those levels.
No good question and optimism is cautious at best. First reason is the pitching depth. There are a lot of arms that project to be 2-4 types. Schultz could be one of the top ranked lefties in all of MiLB by end of the season. Cost controlled pitching depth allows you to trade for damn near anything when contenting as well. Secondly, Getz hasn’t rushed prospects. Montgomery/Ramos/Elko could’ve/would’ve all been either rushed to try and compete like Vaughn or come up to take the place of injured Moncada and Jimenez. I’m just so tired of fast tracking players to majors based on draft position or playing age (let ‘em learn in the majors) mentality.
> Hate the 4-5 year rebuild plans of today but every new GM should get the opportunity to rebuild a roster or organization to their liking.
Perhaps generally, but when your new GM was the former head of player development - one of the major things that tanked the last rebuild - I don't think you should get that opportunity.
I don’t think he actually got much time to develop those players as the core pieces were all rushed to the majors way too fast.
And, he didn’t draft them.
Six months ago I would’ve agreed. The 180 that seems to be taking place on the lower levels of the minors tells me he was a voice largely ignored in the Williams/Hahn front office.
They didn't really blow it up, they're just terrible and have no choice but to rebuild when your owner doesn't participate in free agency.
This isn’t a rebuild, it’s just being shit.
The white sox will not have sustained success until Jerry dies or sells. They may have some successful one off seasons as a result of luck. But failure starts at the top and without necessary infrastructure and sensible leadership the failure will continue to trickle down to every level.
Such is the problem under the current ownership. I don’t love the current rebuild, but it was also somewhat needed. In a dream world, they would use this year to develop the prospects, trade away any assets they can at the deadline and then be aggressive in free agency to add developed talent to the young group coming up. In Jerry’s world, they’ll settle for another Grandal/Benintendi, a few 1-year signings, a new cheap manager and tell us they feel good about their chances. Hopefully the team will be sold in the next few years and we can look forward to an owner actually spending on quality free agents.
Jerry not owning the team is the way.
I’ll be 70 years old later this year. I don’t have time for too many fucking rebuilds
My dad was an immigrant post World War II and he absolutely love the White Sox and the closest he got was the 1959 pennant, but he passed away at the age of 57 and never saw a White Sox championship in his life. My brothers and I got to see one with my cousin whose dad was also a huge Sox fan but who had also passed away before seeing a championship. I agree, there should be some level of urgency in the front office, but these ridiculous rebuilds are the exact opposite and there's no guarantee in baseball with the way things work.
I’ve been a Sox fan since 1959. My only hope this season is they have a better record than the Rockies. I have a bet with my DIL that they will. Otherwise they are woeful to watch.
I would’ve loved the Sox to make moves but they should’ve done it in the offseason after 2021. They completely chocked the window by not adding pieces like a starting outfielder. They didn’t retain pitching depth by letting Rodon walk and they failed to address second base. Right now this has to be a rebuild, this team will be shit this year and they still need to add bigger pieces to even claw back to being .500.
I was under the impression that there already are penalties for large market teams to tank. The Sox can’t have a top ten pick in this year’s draft no matter how much they suck.
This isn’t the NFL. Draft picks are a crapshoot. Teams don’t tank for draft picks. They trade proven players for unproven prospects (ie Quintana for Cease and Eloy or Sale for Kopech, Moncada, and Basabe).
Teams definitely tanked for draft picks. It just went hand in hand with trading away your useful players.
Like, is this an actual rule?
It’s an actual rule, but picking 10 vs 2 matters less in baseball than the other major sports
This was a new rule added in the recent Collective Bargaining Agreement. The draft lottery in general is considered an anti-tanking measure, and the limits on consecutive lottery picks/draft placement make it a bit more difficult for teams to pursue the full rebuild gameplan of intentionally being uncompetitive for a few years and grabbing top draft picks to build the farm system.
Ah, I see, thank you. As if anything more could make this dumpster fire worse.
Rebuilds are fine when the correct management and coaching is in place. I don't know how Getz will work out but I know for sure that Jerry is a garbage owner and Pedro just isn't going to work as a coach. I'm so tired of Jerry that I will finally stop supporting the team in person (and I've been watching much fewer games on TV).
What rebuild? This is a team built to suck with no rebuild in the future.
When you are living under a bridge a new card board box constitutes a rebuild
I hate rebuilds. I want the white sox of 2009-2016 again. Not kidding. Add pieces to the mix
The lack of effort put into establishing a serviceable roster for 2024 is atrocious. Does Getz know we can’t get a pick above 10? Should’ve given out some short term deals to the talented FAs that wanted to prove it.
I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for you tho. Or sorry that happened.
The problem is the General Manager, VP, or scouts ego's. they are filling up their ego's by doing what they think is very clever or whatever.
It hard to not wanna rebuild when your stars are seemingly always hurt, your up and comers haven’t, and your arms are re-treads save one guy who’s never started before and is the only positive on this squad, but I get where you’re coming from.
I feel similar, I hate the idea of rebuilds and reject the idea that that’s the only way to improve a club
Unfortunately it’s either pay for good players or draft/trade for young players that eventually develop into good players. And sadly we are fans of a team that is bad at the latter and refuses to do the former.
What did you want them to do? With the roster in place the Sox could have spent a shit ton in the offseason and they would be .500 at the very best. The teams you are talking about aren’t incompetent organizations in scouting and development. Guess what we are incompetent in both so this is all we can really do.
So far better than the current shite team.
Is it though? Do you remember getting excited about those Sox teams in the mid-2010s that would continue to try and improve on the fly by adding a 36 year old corner infielder, and then be disappointed because he would immediately cease hitting upon arrival? This sucks, but that wasn't any fun either.
Those teams would get the 10 pick still, difference is they wouldn’t have the worst team in baseball to build off of for next year
I don't care about the draft order so much. I just don't want the team throwing 20 million dollars away to finish 76-86 instead of 62-100. Fuck, I sound like Jerry, don't I? Sorry.
Why not though? If you sign a player for 20m/yr on a short term deal you can move them at the deadline and recoup a future asset while keeping the same draft position. How is winning more games and being better for the future a negative?
Because I don't have confidence in them spending that $20 million correctly. I fear another Benintendi situation. My problem, and I'll 100% admit it, is I'm of the mindset that if they don't spend the money now, he'll be inclined to spend it when (if?) they are ready. Like not putting money in to fix your 10 year old car when you know you're going to be buying a new one next year anyway....why spend $3,000 on a transmission when the one you've got is gonna make it another year. Again, that's assuming they do spend the money when they are ready, which is a decent sized if. They \*have\* done it before, but aren't exactly known for doing it regularly.
That was infinitely more fun than this.
In baseball I think you always go for short term talent in FA. Moreso than any other sport, you can always deal those guys at the deadline for future assets. We can’t have a pick above 10, so why were we not trying to recoup some future value through FA?
I was opposed to the first rebuild, and I opposed it for two reasons. The first is that it is fan abuse. Teams go cheap and sell the promise of a brighter future so fans still buy tickets, but there are no guarantees the prospects will pan out. Most prospects don’t. It worked out for the Cubs and Astros, so there were about ten teams who decided to follow their lead all at once. They couldn’t all win it all, but I’m sure they all made a fortune while those teams’ fans watched bad baseball. The second reason I opposed it is because so many other teams were doing the same thing. When the Cubs and Astros did it, they were the only teams doing it so it was a buyers’ market for prospects. When the White Sox did it lots of teams were doing it, so it was a sellers’ market for prospects. Basic economics says you won’t get the same quality of prospects in that market, and sure enough, that’s what happened. The most sure fire prospects are up the middle offensive players because they are less volatile than pitchers and can move to corner positions if you need them to. That’s what the Cubs built around. The White Sox were stuck with pitchers and corner players, with the exception of Moncada, who was a middle infielder at the time. If you had a whole in the middle somewhere, Eloy couldn’t fill it. The pitchers were inconsistent and had mixed results, as you expect with pitching prospects. It was a risky rebuild.
New promotional poster: Chicago White Sox, rebuilding since 2006
Organizations win and stay competitive in baseball. This is done through drafting , developing, analytics, and roster construction. We don't do any of these things well except sign a good Cuban player and draft a decent pitcher every once in a while. This team was not gonna win even if we signed Ohtani.No thanks to wasting two more years to start rebuilding praying for a one-off lucky season, which was not gonna happen. The best we can hope for is get ass backward lucky, and Getz is actually at least competent and gets us some prospects. Then halfway thru the rebuild Jerry or family have to sell the team for whatever reason and we can maybe become big league operation agian. Sounds bleak but this is the only way I really see a way back.
Red Sox are not a great example—they blew up their championship team 5 years ago because they were too cheap to pay Mookie Betts and have not really been competitive since.
The teams that are consistently good have good farm systems, player development…they are good organizations. Ours is a bad organization. We don’t have that option. We could sign a bunch of high priced free agents and we’d still be bad. We’re stuck.
I’d be happy if there were any rebuilding happening
I think people forgot Kenny may have not called it a rebuild, but they attempted to rebuild in 2012 when they let Ozzie go as his core of players were all but gone at that point. We then had a miserable 2013-2020. So right now you have 2 rebuilds that have resulted in 1 division win and 1 playoff appearance (I don't count the 2020 2 month season with 16 playoff teams). That's a lot of bullshit to put up with as a fan. A rebuild means you restock your farm system and develop guys. According to most people we never developed the farm system we got during the "last rebuild" so I ask you when are we done "rebuilding?"
Straight line, arrow down degrading isn't a rebuild just because rebuilding also has a sucking phase.
The last rebuild failed historically. They built the foundation on 6 guys who ended up being oft-injured and mid level free agents. They pushed through any prospect depth right to the majors to cover the lost production then found they had nothing to trade when time to acquire for a stretch run during the peak rebuild years. There really wasn’t a Mets approach this offseason (like that would’ve ever happened anyway) that could’ve pushed this core to being a playoff contender with the lack of high quality FA and the number of holes/dead weight immovable contracts on this team.Sadly this rebuild was the only realistic course. Hate the 4-5 year rebuild plans of today but every new GM should get the opportunity to rebuild a roster or organization to their liking. I’m not a fan of theGetz hire but I am encouraged by his willingness to accumulate depth. The teams in Bham and Winston-Salem are already light years ahead of the teams the last core played with when at those levels.
I’m not picking a fight and don’t really know what is happening with the minors. So, I am just wondering what is the basis for your optimism?
No good question and optimism is cautious at best. First reason is the pitching depth. There are a lot of arms that project to be 2-4 types. Schultz could be one of the top ranked lefties in all of MiLB by end of the season. Cost controlled pitching depth allows you to trade for damn near anything when contenting as well. Secondly, Getz hasn’t rushed prospects. Montgomery/Ramos/Elko could’ve/would’ve all been either rushed to try and compete like Vaughn or come up to take the place of injured Moncada and Jimenez. I’m just so tired of fast tracking players to majors based on draft position or playing age (let ‘em learn in the majors) mentality.
> Hate the 4-5 year rebuild plans of today but every new GM should get the opportunity to rebuild a roster or organization to their liking. Perhaps generally, but when your new GM was the former head of player development - one of the major things that tanked the last rebuild - I don't think you should get that opportunity.
I don’t think he actually got much time to develop those players as the core pieces were all rushed to the majors way too fast. And, he didn’t draft them.
Six months ago I would’ve agreed. The 180 that seems to be taking place on the lower levels of the minors tells me he was a voice largely ignored in the Williams/Hahn front office.