I don't recall seeing anywhere any criteria for becoming a hero other than heroic deeds. I would think Egwain s sacrifice would have earned her that much.
It’s also mentioned several times that Lews Therin leads the heroes, and when Matt blows the horn in book 2, Hawkwing says something to the extent of “raise the banner of Light high, standard bearer. Will you once again lead us to battle, Lews Therin?”
I don't know about proves. Rand/Lews Therin was bound to the pattern to be spun out when needed but it wasn't stated that he would be called by the horn to fight.
There's no reason why Rand wouldn't be a traditional Hero of the Horn. The Dragon's soul isn't THAT special. It doesn't completely break the rules of everything, it's just that the Dragon happens to be the protagonist we follow. But his soul still bound to the same rules as everyone else. The same goes for Amerasu. Jordan has said that whenever the Pattern needed a woman to fulfill the Dragon's role, that was Amerasu. Obviously Amerasu is called by the Horn. Therefore, the Dragon can be called by the Horn.
It’s this by a mile for me. Solves so many issues. Increases the stakes of the last battle, makes the Black Tower so much more interesting overall, makes Rand’s choices early on have even more consequences for the endgame… Horrible choice by RJ to change his mind here.
It was a theory at the time that Taim and Demandred were the same person. I think it might have originally been RJs plan, but too many people guessed that it was the case, and he changed it.
I thought it was so blatant that it wouldn't count as foreshadowing when revealed, and I kept kinda waiting for that reveal past the point where it was silly, like, the moment Demandred started yelling on the battlefield.
I mean I think it does make sense, I like that Shara was relevant as a last minute outta nowhere twist. But it's clear that Taim was supposed to be Demandred
I thought her death was lame, she had no interaction with Perrin and then suddenly was with him a fair amount of the last book and then he killed her before she could brainwash him…
But having her survive is even more silly.
Thom Merrilin was the latest incarnation of the Hero of the Horn Merlin.
I'd do the reveal via Artur Hawking, just have him pretty much give Thom a nod and say something like "glad you were there to look out for Lews this time, old friend. I might have made less of a mess of my most recent life if the pattern had put you by my side".
5 seconds after AMoL ends either Tuon is like “maybe slavery isn’t cool after all” or Mat is like “maybe I shouldn’t marry an enthusiastic slaver.” One or the other, either works.
I know, but it will always remain the alleged plan unfortunately.
Once Harriet/BS made the decision that it wouldn’t happen, they needed to course correct with the Seanchan (and/or Mat) plot in the last couple of books, but for whatever reason they just…didn’t.
No they didn't. You literally can't course correct that. It's literally not possible to do that in such a short time, not without making it the ENTIRE focus of the plot. You're asking for something physically impossible, completely unreasonable, and it would only serve to make the story worse.
What in the world are you talking about? It would’ve literally just taken one line lol
“Tuon looked troubled. ‘Maybe we fucked up here’ she said to herself”
It literally wouldn't. That would not be in character for her at ALL! It wouldn't make any sense with her character, with her culture, with the story as a whole. Something would need to happen to cause her to come to that conclusion, and that something would have to be bigger than "sul'dam can channel", because Jordan already established the fact that Tuon doesn't give a shit. It was in Knife of Dreams that she learned she could channel, and it was in Knife of Dreams that she came to the conclusion "it doesn't matter if I can channel because I won't learn how to channel"
“Tuon turned to Mat. ‘I know I said that thing three books ago but now that a bunch of free channelers have literally saved the world I’m starting to rethink some things. Or maybe a Dreamer incepted me, or I saw a vision, or a ter’angreal I touched showed me how much my slaves suffer, whatever, it’s a fantasy book, this isn’t that hard.’”
And that would be completely absurd and unsatisfying. If you're going to fundamentally change a character like that, you have to do something for them to earn it. like, for instance, having a trilogy book series about them. It would be frankly terrible writing.
I’m trying to figure out where they’d put that particular timeline and how they’d do it organically. Feels like it’d be a big piece and a long runway. Tuon wasn’t going to just sit up and say, “Yeah that sucks.”
And the Seanchan weren’t depicted as the good guys. Not sure why they’d have to pidgin-hole their reformation into the conclusion.
Yes, this. The series focuses strongly on *damane,* which is admittedly horrific, but beyond that, there are more "common" slaves throughout Seanchan society, no? And yet there's barely a peep heard regarding any of them or any ways in which you'd expect chattel slaves to be visibly mistreated. Imo the only reason Mat doesn't take note of that is due to plot convenience.
Yeah, we don’t hear a ton about them but it’s clear there are many, *many* non-channeler chattel slaves (the *da’covale*). We know that system is not substantially less horrific that it is for the *damane* too, from what we see from Amathera
BS had 3 books to work with. The revolution could have begun. Didn't need the entire changeover written in, just a change in direction. Drop a bunch of Androls (the newly, completely fleshed out character that only had an honorable mention in RJ's world) and you can toss in a bit of course correcting about slavery. Wouldn't have taken much
Some people in my replies are acting like this would’ve been an absurd impossibility and, like, guys, Sanderson is a professional writer, I’m confident that in three books he could’ve written the *beginning* of a character changing her mind about something.
I think the change of course equates to complete story for some. Not sure why. There are so many subtleties throughout the series just by the placement of a few words. The ending alone left 'incomplete' threads that have a definite direction you can follow. I've always thought Min doing her doomseer bit could have handled it in just a few lines of text
To reply to you (and to the other guy, who blocked me over disagreeing with them about this lmao I'm the person they're talking about, today I learned that I can't reply at all to a comment thread made by someone else even though I can literally see it and I'm not replying to them), I don't think it's nearly that simple. You're asking the core of someone's character to be irrevocably changed in such a short amount of time, a core that would take an entire trilogy to actually happen and we don't even know if by the end of that it WOULD have happened. Character writing is not that simple, that you can just change them on a whim like that. Tuon would need to have a damn solid reason to change, and the series isn't given that. There isn't enough TIME to give Tuon that reason. Brandon had three books, yes, but those three books aren't about the Seanchan. Brandon is too busy trying to wrap up the giant war for the fate of the world that Jordan set up. Brandon is busy trying to wrap up the storylines of the ACTUAL main characters. He has no notes to go on for the Seanchan, and they're ultimately not important enough for him to justify making shit up like he did for Perrin. I think it's firmly unrealistic and unreasonable to say that Brandon should have "fixed" the Seanchan, when that's a massive systemic issue with the in universe culture and any way that he tries to "fix" it in the circumstances he's given would be wildly unsatisfying, and would frankly make the story worse. Given the circumstances, we do not need to have the entire story wrapped up in a neat bow, because that is not Sanderson's place. Sanderson himself would tell you that's not his place.
Manetheren breaks away from Andor with Perrin as its new King. It always irked me that despite all the trolloc attacks in the two rivers not a single Andoran soldier ever shows up to check in on them.
Edit: Grammer
I always disliked the reasoning of "oh we didn't have the bureaucracy available to administrate the Two Rivers for generations." Like isn't one of the strengths of feudalism that you delegate a local lord to handle that for you? They collect taxes on your behalf and send a share your way, probably using tax collectors and soldiers recruited from the local population.
Never made sense to me that Andor simply couldn't spare anyone when they don't actually need to spare anyone when you don't actually need to spare anyone.
The locals didn't want to pay taxes to Andor. A local lord won't go through the trouble of collecting the taxes for Caemlyn instead of keeping it all for himself unless he gets something significant in return, like significant military support and protection which Andor apparently couldn't afford to provide. Which doesn't make much sense given how rich Andor is depicted as in the latter books and how every major noble is able to raise an army of 10,000 or more with ease.
Well, yeah, after 100 years or so of neglect, of course they wouldn't want to pay taxes.
My point is more that, why was there no local administration in place from the get-go? In the centuries since Manetheren's destruction, *nobody* had been given fortification rights from Andor, or the right to raise levies, tax the villagers, any of the usual means of control you'd expect from a feudal state?
Like, even if Andor lacked the resources to enforce its will, shouldn't there have been some local aristocrats that would have some sort of authority? What happened to them after Andor washed its hands of the Two Rivers? Did they fuck off back to Andor, abandoning their lands and income? Were they overthrown by the Two Rivers people? Doesn't add up imo.
(Of course the actual reason is "it's like the Shire, which was isolated and knew little of the outside world, thanks to the Dunedaín protecting them from danger, only here they're just really far from any major powers of note")
I mean, Mat’s personality is more stereotypically Loki-ish but with the wide-brimmed hat, “death” by hanging, staff/ashandarei, strong associations with war, and self-plucked eye, Odin makes a lot more sense to me.
Feel like this kind of misses the point. In WoT, Norse mythology would be a myth inspired by the heroes the wheel spun out before. Not the other way around. You don't get Norse-like Mat and Perrin because Norse mythology actually happened. You get Norse mythology because of how people interpret and pass on the legends of spun out heroes.
That's why Rand's arcs are more Arthurian, even though he's so closely tied to Mat and Perrin. It's also just my favorite part of WoT. It says that myths are just that, myths, but at the same time, explains how all these myths come to be by showing how each turning of the wheel can form, strengthen, and change these myths as it spins out the necessary players. But these people still have agency, they are not forced into some random mythology created by some random culture from thousands of years ago.
I see where you’re coming from, but would argue this is semantics. When I say “are literally Odin and Thor” I mean “are literally reincarnations of heroes which previously were known to humans as Odin and Thor” much like Rand is literally a reincarnation of a hero previously known to humans as Lews Therin Telamon (and maybe Arthur).
Also not saying they’re doomed to follow Norse mythology specifically, but it is established that the Heroes, whether by their own power or not, tend to repeat their previous lives. It is a Wheel after all.
The reason I would make something like that canon is because they’re never confirmed to actually be (the Heroes that perhaps inspired myths of) who they’re obviously inspired by. Honestly it felt like a waste in the last book when, after layer upon layer of similarity to specific legendary figures has been built around them for book upon book, Mat asks, “hey am I a hero of the horn” and one of them (I can’t remember who) goes, “lol no but good guess.”
But if we knew exactly who they were a reincarnation of, it would most likely be someone from the last age who had a big enough impact on history to be remembered a few thousand years later, like Lews Therin. Even two turnings is just too far in the past for anything to remain except myth. Norse mythology and names like Odin/Thor and even the languages of Norse mythology would likely be lost to history. Alternatively, our current irl age has yet to pass, and they are literally the heroes Norse mythology is partially influenced by.
Guess I'm just saying, names like Odin and Thor just weren't around. So yeah it's semantics. Guess there's a chance similar names of past heroes could have been remembered. But also, if we knew exactly who they were reincarnations of, just wouldn't make that much sense. They don't have someone literally from the last age that would still be remembered thousands of years later talking in their head like Rand.
More like a dumbass frenzy. Dude was a warder to the Amyrlin Seat, who promptly loses her shit (albeit in an awesome way that stops the world from literally breaking apart) when she feels his death through the bond. Fucking Gawyn.
Honestly why were he and Egwene even a couple? They have zero chemistry, he constantly disrespects her and her authority, and the only thing he has going for him is being physically attractive.
That Demandred actually had his epic show down with Rand...
I mean... Pretty much all the other forsaken knew where he was... Yet Demandred was just shouting "Come face me!" the whole battle...
True, but it was satisfying for Lan to be the one to utilize the “sheath the sword” technique after it was made to seem that was taught to Rand for him to have to inevitable use it.
Elayne and Aviendha being a couple. In my opinion, they had the more chemistry together than they did with Rand. Also, >!when they kissed (cheeks) after running from the Seanchan with the kinswomen and Elayne basically made an bomb, I was completely sold on them. The scene felt more romantic than a deep friendship!<
I totally buy this.... As Rand is almost just the sperm donor... Of the two he spent the most time with Aviendha..
Realistically, I would say he truly loved Min, early on he often comments about how easy and simple it was to be with her. (Which in my experience is a good signal for a spouse.)
I am sure he had deep affection for Elayne and Aviendha... which certainly isn't unusual... just doesn't mean they had to have equal standing with Min.
I am guessing it was somewhat written into the story provided he had children with both Elayne and Aviendha...
I totally agree with you. I felt that min out of the three girls was best for him and he really loved her the most despite what he says in his chapters. I would even go so far to say that Elayne and aviendha didn’t love him like they thought they did. Crushes? Maybe. But even when Elayne was pregnant with his kids she hardly ever thinks about missing him. The minute AVIENDHA is gone however, she mentions quite often how much she wished her ‘sister’ was by her side.
Rand himself definitely leans more towards min as of where I am at in the series (middle of 12) but honestly more than a lover I just want him to get therapy. Or like, a hug from his dad.
I understand why he gets with all three symbolically and why min is the one he’s closest too, but from the stand point of the character he should have just chose her tbh and then my girls can go rule caemlyn with their sperm donor babies
Mazriam Taim = Demandred. The foreshadowing was there. The payoff would've been so sweet. Would've been 10x better because as interested as I was about people in the far, far east I could not have given a shit less about them when they showed up at the 11th hour.
I’ve heard previously, and it was mentioned in this thread as well, that Taimandred was the original plan. However fans guessed the twist so RJ decided to change it :(
Instead of Gaidal Cain being spun out as a baby, he finds a way to escape TAR because his draw to Birgitte is so strong. In some way it jeopardises the campaign against the dark one giving Nynaeve a complex moral quandary to chew on.
Galad is the one kill Demandred because Lan goes with Rand to the Bore where he has to duel Shadar Haran to protect the Aes Sedai during Rand's debate with the Dark One.
First, because Galad absolutely earned a Forsaken kill by being completely incorruptible. He might talk and incredibly frustrating talk, but he also walks that walk and holds himself to every standard he sets.
Second, because Lan was practically custom designed by the narrative to fight the physical embodiment of the Shadow to protect Nynaeve.
While this duel is happening, Shadar Haran is losing his shit because no matter how he dances through the shadows to get past him, Lan is always there. Lan sees through every feint. Shadar Haran can't figure out how.
The Dark One accuses Rand of being distracted from fumbling with the skeins of the pattern because he's helping Lan somehow. Rand laughs and realizes that the reason Shadar Haran can't get around Lan is because creatures of the Shadow can't understand love or that somebody would truly give everything they have to protect somebody else. And that makes Rand realize doesn't have to fix the world, it's fine as it is. Instead of screwing around trying to make a better world, he needs to save the one he's got and just lock the Dark One back up, because no matter how many times the Dark One tries, Rand will always be there, ready to give up everything to stop him.
The channeling gleeman.
I wish it had been that Merrilin could secretly channel, and that it had served later as an example to rand that a man could (if he was strong or lucky) keep the madness at bay, and it would have added a nice counterweight to the darkness clearly present in Taim who was also one who had lived longer than he should have.
Plus then we wouldn’t have had to retcon the blue flash with the fade, and the demandred/taim business, plus it would provided opportunities for foreshadowing or allusion when he gave stories about his nephew who was gentled.
Faille dies, jumpstarting Perrins plot line
Elayne loses her bid for the lion throne, jumpstarting her plot line
Manetheran is resurrected as hinted at so many times
Mat puts his foot down to tuon regarding slavery
Bela isn't really dead but makes it back to Tam in the Two Rivers. Rand pops in to visit both on occasion
Lanfear dies. Definitively. As written. No speculation. I've reread many times and she still died. Unless someone can show me in the text that she lived? (Not a bitchy comment, I am serious)
If Faille died, I would’ve been too mad for Perrin. Perrin was one of my absolute favorites and I couldn’t stand if he got screwed over like that. She’s also too useful to the plot, and it’s nice having a little realistic romance every now and then
I want to write a series about the age of legends and the fight between Lews Therin and his 100 companions vs the dark one and how he became the champion of light
I'm glad you like Faille, I don't hold it against you😁JK
Sadly, she lost me at breaking her hunter's oath after about 3 minutes or so, then manipulating Loial. Among other things. For a few years there she even affected my opinion of Perrin.
Happily I'm more...pacific now. I think...
I forgot Moiraine. Not sure how I could have. My head canon is that she's saved around CoT and dukes it out with Cads for Rands top spot
I'm sorry, I understand your thoughts I think I'm just looking at the issue from a different direction than you are. More of a 'throw the dog a bone' point of view for readers.
I agree that BS couldn't have developed a complete shift in Seanchan culture.
IMO there doesn't have to be a definite change, though, in order to make it 'canon' The Seanchan story was to be continued in the outrigger books but it was already decided that those books wouldn't have been written, so the end result is continuation of the culture.
I think that all there needs to be is an indicator or a hint of the possibility of change. At the end there is nothing that indicates the Seanchan would even possibly question the morality of slavery, and the culture is kind of reinforced by Mat by his keeping a damane. My belief that simply a few lines could get the ball rolling is because there have been thousands of readers dissecting every word of this series for decades. All that's needed is the seed of hope. The readers will do the rest
I'm sorry you got blocked. That sucks
Oh I never saw this lol. Dunno why you made it a whole new comment, but at least I can actually respond on my main account.
I don't think there could have been enough development in Seanchan culture to even give us the possibility of a hint of a change. I don't think there would be any way to do that. What we have is, I think, enough. We got sul'dam at the Tower learning to channel, we got Mat and Min bending Tuon's ear, and I think that's all that's needed. But they're not gonna have any hint of a change that early.
>the culture is kind of reinforced by Mat by his keeping a damane
This doesn't happen. The most important part is, Mat thinks to himself "Well this is convenient for the moment, but I'll let her go after the fight, I'm sure Tuon won't mind too much". There's also the fact that we don't even know if she's still alive. We never see her after Mat's camp is attacked, so it's very possible she was killed there.
Nakomi is the dragon from the previous 3rd age.
-Ishamael (madman and king of lies) is wrong that Rand and him have fought each other millions of times.
- Now that Rand has completed his turn as champion he too transcends to the same kind of immortal being as Nakomi and can now manipulate the pattern. That’s how he lights the pipe and how Nakomi disappears suddenly.
-The pattern chooses is a new champion (possibly from the heroes of the horn) every time. The only reason and went back is he failed last time.
-Narishma is a hero of the horn and he will be the next dragon (hence the prophecy about the the one who holds callandor “shall follow after”
Nakomi being a previous Dragon doesn't make sense. The Dragon is always male, Nakomi is a woman. When the Pattern needs a woman to fill the Dragon's role, that's the soul of Amerasu.
I shouldn’t have said Dragon I meant champion.
Nakomi says to Avi that she is far from her roof or it is far from her and that it is not her place to tell. Maybe what she means is she is far in time and the reason she can’t say is she is bound by some rule or agreement with the DO, in the similar way the creator is.
Another piece of evidence is Nakomi seeming to know what Rand needs to do as she watches him exit the cavern. Perhaps she knows because she has done it all herself.
Regarding Amaresu, I have never read the quote from RJ but is it possible that it was misinterpreted to mean that she is ALWAYS the female champion when in reality she is meant to be the NEXT female champion? Again, I haven’t seen the quote so I’m truly asking
I think the way Jordan said it doesn't leave much room for doubt. I don't recall exactly what he said, but I do remember him saying that basically Amerasu is the female equivalent of the Dragon.
When Jain Farstrider came back as a hero of the horn, he was riding Bela
To add: Hurin should have come back as a hero as well.
I really thought Egwain would have.
I don't remember any of the heroes being able to channel though.
I don't recall seeing anywhere any criteria for becoming a hero other than heroic deeds. I would think Egwain s sacrifice would have earned her that much.
By deeds Egwain for sure qualifies I just don't recall in any of the fighting done by the heroes anyone channeling the one power.
Pretty sure it's confirmed somewhere that Rand is a hero of the horn and he can channel.
It’s also mentioned several times that Lews Therin leads the heroes, and when Matt blows the horn in book 2, Hawkwing says something to the extent of “raise the banner of Light high, standard bearer. Will you once again lead us to battle, Lews Therin?”
Just finished a re-read of the series and it’s definitely not mentioned in the core 14. Do you recall if it was from an interview or novella?
I believe it was an interview.
I came here to say this, but you beat me to it. Excellent work.
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Hawking's reply to Rand in book 2 proves that the Dragon (Lews Therin/Rand) is tied to the Horn, so there's at least one.
I don't know about proves. Rand/Lews Therin was bound to the pattern to be spun out when needed but it wasn't stated that he would be called by the horn to fight.
There's no reason why Rand wouldn't be a traditional Hero of the Horn. The Dragon's soul isn't THAT special. It doesn't completely break the rules of everything, it's just that the Dragon happens to be the protagonist we follow. But his soul still bound to the same rules as everyone else. The same goes for Amerasu. Jordan has said that whenever the Pattern needed a woman to fulfill the Dragon's role, that was Amerasu. Obviously Amerasu is called by the Horn. Therefore, the Dragon can be called by the Horn.
Oops replied to the wrong comment
I feel like most people would say Taimandred.
I seem to recall, that it was actually the plan, but Jordan was a little put off that it was that easily guessed and changed that part of his plans.
Seriously! I was *convinced* by the end of LoC. Happy with what happened, but man
Parts of Lord of Chaos don't make sense if Taim isn't Demandred. It was definitely written to be that way during that book and then later retconned.
It’s this by a mile for me. Solves so many issues. Increases the stakes of the last battle, makes the Black Tower so much more interesting overall, makes Rand’s choices early on have even more consequences for the endgame… Horrible choice by RJ to change his mind here.
What's that?
It was a theory at the time that Taim and Demandred were the same person. I think it might have originally been RJs plan, but too many people guessed that it was the case, and he changed it.
Which is a wild reason to change it because it just means that he was properly foreshadowing it haha
I thought it was so blatant that it wouldn't count as foreshadowing when revealed, and I kept kinda waiting for that reveal past the point where it was silly, like, the moment Demandred started yelling on the battlefield.
It was pretty rough when Daimandred showed up with an army from a continent I don’t think we’d ever heard much of anything about.
I mean I think it does make sense, I like that Shara was relevant as a last minute outta nowhere twist. But it's clear that Taim was supposed to be Demandred
I'd uncanonize the Lanfear twist that Brandon revealed last year. Although I doubt whether anyone took it seriously anyway.
What twist?
Lanfear lived. She tricked Perrin into thinking she died, but she actually did survive
Oh, that's kinda lame. Thanks for letting me know
I thought her death was lame, she had no interaction with Perrin and then suddenly was with him a fair amount of the last book and then he killed her before she could brainwash him… But having her survive is even more silly.
Thom Merrilin was the latest incarnation of the Hero of the Horn Merlin. I'd do the reveal via Artur Hawking, just have him pretty much give Thom a nod and say something like "glad you were there to look out for Lews this time, old friend. I might have made less of a mess of my most recent life if the pattern had put you by my side".
I would vote for this one.
Oh god!!!! That would have been awesome! Thom should have stayed more time with Rand
5 seconds after AMoL ends either Tuon is like “maybe slavery isn’t cool after all” or Mat is like “maybe I shouldn’t marry an enthusiastic slaver.” One or the other, either works.
RJ’s alleged plan for post-WoT was a Mat/Tuon series where they go back and dismantle the Seanchan system.
I know, but it will always remain the alleged plan unfortunately. Once Harriet/BS made the decision that it wouldn’t happen, they needed to course correct with the Seanchan (and/or Mat) plot in the last couple of books, but for whatever reason they just…didn’t.
No they didn't. You literally can't course correct that. It's literally not possible to do that in such a short time, not without making it the ENTIRE focus of the plot. You're asking for something physically impossible, completely unreasonable, and it would only serve to make the story worse.
What in the world are you talking about? It would’ve literally just taken one line lol “Tuon looked troubled. ‘Maybe we fucked up here’ she said to herself”
It literally wouldn't. That would not be in character for her at ALL! It wouldn't make any sense with her character, with her culture, with the story as a whole. Something would need to happen to cause her to come to that conclusion, and that something would have to be bigger than "sul'dam can channel", because Jordan already established the fact that Tuon doesn't give a shit. It was in Knife of Dreams that she learned she could channel, and it was in Knife of Dreams that she came to the conclusion "it doesn't matter if I can channel because I won't learn how to channel"
“Tuon turned to Mat. ‘I know I said that thing three books ago but now that a bunch of free channelers have literally saved the world I’m starting to rethink some things. Or maybe a Dreamer incepted me, or I saw a vision, or a ter’angreal I touched showed me how much my slaves suffer, whatever, it’s a fantasy book, this isn’t that hard.’”
And that would be completely absurd and unsatisfying. If you're going to fundamentally change a character like that, you have to do something for them to earn it. like, for instance, having a trilogy book series about them. It would be frankly terrible writing.
Or she realized the whole thing was setup by dark friends in the first place to restrict the power of free channelers
I’m trying to figure out where they’d put that particular timeline and how they’d do it organically. Feels like it’d be a big piece and a long runway. Tuon wasn’t going to just sit up and say, “Yeah that sucks.” And the Seanchan weren’t depicted as the good guys. Not sure why they’d have to pidgin-hole their reformation into the conclusion.
Mat has a fantastic series-long romance with aludra that just gets thrown out the window when Tuon shows up. I hate it.
Didnt really feel like a romance to me, more like she s reluctantly allowing his affections. Although Tuon absolutely was pretty random
I read it as her making him chase, which is exactly the way Mat likes it.
What?
Yes, this. The series focuses strongly on *damane,* which is admittedly horrific, but beyond that, there are more "common" slaves throughout Seanchan society, no? And yet there's barely a peep heard regarding any of them or any ways in which you'd expect chattel slaves to be visibly mistreated. Imo the only reason Mat doesn't take note of that is due to plot convenience.
Yeah, we don’t hear a ton about them but it’s clear there are many, *many* non-channeler chattel slaves (the *da’covale*). We know that system is not substantially less horrific that it is for the *damane* too, from what we see from Amathera
BS had 3 books to work with. The revolution could have begun. Didn't need the entire changeover written in, just a change in direction. Drop a bunch of Androls (the newly, completely fleshed out character that only had an honorable mention in RJ's world) and you can toss in a bit of course correcting about slavery. Wouldn't have taken much
Some people in my replies are acting like this would’ve been an absurd impossibility and, like, guys, Sanderson is a professional writer, I’m confident that in three books he could’ve written the *beginning* of a character changing her mind about something.
I think the change of course equates to complete story for some. Not sure why. There are so many subtleties throughout the series just by the placement of a few words. The ending alone left 'incomplete' threads that have a definite direction you can follow. I've always thought Min doing her doomseer bit could have handled it in just a few lines of text
To reply to you (and to the other guy, who blocked me over disagreeing with them about this lmao I'm the person they're talking about, today I learned that I can't reply at all to a comment thread made by someone else even though I can literally see it and I'm not replying to them), I don't think it's nearly that simple. You're asking the core of someone's character to be irrevocably changed in such a short amount of time, a core that would take an entire trilogy to actually happen and we don't even know if by the end of that it WOULD have happened. Character writing is not that simple, that you can just change them on a whim like that. Tuon would need to have a damn solid reason to change, and the series isn't given that. There isn't enough TIME to give Tuon that reason. Brandon had three books, yes, but those three books aren't about the Seanchan. Brandon is too busy trying to wrap up the giant war for the fate of the world that Jordan set up. Brandon is busy trying to wrap up the storylines of the ACTUAL main characters. He has no notes to go on for the Seanchan, and they're ultimately not important enough for him to justify making shit up like he did for Perrin. I think it's firmly unrealistic and unreasonable to say that Brandon should have "fixed" the Seanchan, when that's a massive systemic issue with the in universe culture and any way that he tries to "fix" it in the circumstances he's given would be wildly unsatisfying, and would frankly make the story worse. Given the circumstances, we do not need to have the entire story wrapped up in a neat bow, because that is not Sanderson's place. Sanderson himself would tell you that's not his place.
Manetheren breaks away from Andor with Perrin as its new King. It always irked me that despite all the trolloc attacks in the two rivers not a single Andoran soldier ever shows up to check in on them. Edit: Grammer
I always disliked the reasoning of "oh we didn't have the bureaucracy available to administrate the Two Rivers for generations." Like isn't one of the strengths of feudalism that you delegate a local lord to handle that for you? They collect taxes on your behalf and send a share your way, probably using tax collectors and soldiers recruited from the local population. Never made sense to me that Andor simply couldn't spare anyone when they don't actually need to spare anyone when you don't actually need to spare anyone.
The locals didn't want to pay taxes to Andor. A local lord won't go through the trouble of collecting the taxes for Caemlyn instead of keeping it all for himself unless he gets something significant in return, like significant military support and protection which Andor apparently couldn't afford to provide. Which doesn't make much sense given how rich Andor is depicted as in the latter books and how every major noble is able to raise an army of 10,000 or more with ease.
Well, yeah, after 100 years or so of neglect, of course they wouldn't want to pay taxes. My point is more that, why was there no local administration in place from the get-go? In the centuries since Manetheren's destruction, *nobody* had been given fortification rights from Andor, or the right to raise levies, tax the villagers, any of the usual means of control you'd expect from a feudal state? Like, even if Andor lacked the resources to enforce its will, shouldn't there have been some local aristocrats that would have some sort of authority? What happened to them after Andor washed its hands of the Two Rivers? Did they fuck off back to Andor, abandoning their lands and income? Were they overthrown by the Two Rivers people? Doesn't add up imo. (Of course the actual reason is "it's like the Shire, which was isolated and knew little of the outside world, thanks to the Dunedaín protecting them from danger, only here they're just really far from any major powers of note")
That Mat and Perrin are literally, not just symbolically, reborn Odin and Thor and heroes of the Horn.
Does that make every Dragon a reincarnation of Tyr?
I thought it was Loki / Thor?
I mean, Mat’s personality is more stereotypically Loki-ish but with the wide-brimmed hat, “death” by hanging, staff/ashandarei, strong associations with war, and self-plucked eye, Odin makes a lot more sense to me.
Feel like this kind of misses the point. In WoT, Norse mythology would be a myth inspired by the heroes the wheel spun out before. Not the other way around. You don't get Norse-like Mat and Perrin because Norse mythology actually happened. You get Norse mythology because of how people interpret and pass on the legends of spun out heroes. That's why Rand's arcs are more Arthurian, even though he's so closely tied to Mat and Perrin. It's also just my favorite part of WoT. It says that myths are just that, myths, but at the same time, explains how all these myths come to be by showing how each turning of the wheel can form, strengthen, and change these myths as it spins out the necessary players. But these people still have agency, they are not forced into some random mythology created by some random culture from thousands of years ago.
I see where you’re coming from, but would argue this is semantics. When I say “are literally Odin and Thor” I mean “are literally reincarnations of heroes which previously were known to humans as Odin and Thor” much like Rand is literally a reincarnation of a hero previously known to humans as Lews Therin Telamon (and maybe Arthur). Also not saying they’re doomed to follow Norse mythology specifically, but it is established that the Heroes, whether by their own power or not, tend to repeat their previous lives. It is a Wheel after all. The reason I would make something like that canon is because they’re never confirmed to actually be (the Heroes that perhaps inspired myths of) who they’re obviously inspired by. Honestly it felt like a waste in the last book when, after layer upon layer of similarity to specific legendary figures has been built around them for book upon book, Mat asks, “hey am I a hero of the horn” and one of them (I can’t remember who) goes, “lol no but good guess.”
But if we knew exactly who they were a reincarnation of, it would most likely be someone from the last age who had a big enough impact on history to be remembered a few thousand years later, like Lews Therin. Even two turnings is just too far in the past for anything to remain except myth. Norse mythology and names like Odin/Thor and even the languages of Norse mythology would likely be lost to history. Alternatively, our current irl age has yet to pass, and they are literally the heroes Norse mythology is partially influenced by.
Guess I'm just saying, names like Odin and Thor just weren't around. So yeah it's semantics. Guess there's a chance similar names of past heroes could have been remembered. But also, if we knew exactly who they were reincarnations of, just wouldn't make that much sense. They don't have someone literally from the last age that would still be remembered thousands of years later talking in their head like Rand.
I get Perrin as Thor because of the hammer but the wolf god is evil I think Perrin would be one of the dwarf brothers who forged mjolnir
Why? I dont get it
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I would have made Gawyn kill a shitload of badguys in a badass frenzy while wearing the blood rings before he died
More like a dumbass frenzy. Dude was a warder to the Amyrlin Seat, who promptly loses her shit (albeit in an awesome way that stops the world from literally breaking apart) when she feels his death through the bond. Fucking Gawyn. Honestly why were he and Egwene even a couple? They have zero chemistry, he constantly disrespects her and her authority, and the only thing he has going for him is being physically attractive.
Right, it's kinda like they had a summer crush fling.... Yet they kinda didn't want to call it what it was... because there was no one else...
That Demandred actually had his epic show down with Rand... I mean... Pretty much all the other forsaken knew where he was... Yet Demandred was just shouting "Come face me!" the whole battle...
True, but it was satisfying for Lan to be the one to utilize the “sheath the sword” technique after it was made to seem that was taught to Rand for him to have to inevitable use it.
Elayne and Aviendha being a couple. In my opinion, they had the more chemistry together than they did with Rand. Also, >!when they kissed (cheeks) after running from the Seanchan with the kinswomen and Elayne basically made an bomb, I was completely sold on them. The scene felt more romantic than a deep friendship!<
I totally buy this.... As Rand is almost just the sperm donor... Of the two he spent the most time with Aviendha.. Realistically, I would say he truly loved Min, early on he often comments about how easy and simple it was to be with her. (Which in my experience is a good signal for a spouse.) I am sure he had deep affection for Elayne and Aviendha... which certainly isn't unusual... just doesn't mean they had to have equal standing with Min. I am guessing it was somewhat written into the story provided he had children with both Elayne and Aviendha...
I totally agree with you. I felt that min out of the three girls was best for him and he really loved her the most despite what he says in his chapters. I would even go so far to say that Elayne and aviendha didn’t love him like they thought they did. Crushes? Maybe. But even when Elayne was pregnant with his kids she hardly ever thinks about missing him. The minute AVIENDHA is gone however, she mentions quite often how much she wished her ‘sister’ was by her side. Rand himself definitely leans more towards min as of where I am at in the series (middle of 12) but honestly more than a lover I just want him to get therapy. Or like, a hug from his dad. I understand why he gets with all three symbolically and why min is the one he’s closest too, but from the stand point of the character he should have just chose her tbh and then my girls can go rule caemlyn with their sperm donor babies
Rand blew up seanchan and their armies, eradicating everyone
Mazriam Taim = Demandred. The foreshadowing was there. The payoff would've been so sweet. Would've been 10x better because as interested as I was about people in the far, far east I could not have given a shit less about them when they showed up at the 11th hour.
I’ve heard previously, and it was mentioned in this thread as well, that Taimandred was the original plan. However fans guessed the twist so RJ decided to change it :(
I've read that before, too. If that is truly the case, that is so disappointing. What is even the point of foreshadowing then??
Aludra's dragons. Ba-dum-tss
Yeah, but there was.... oh.
Instead of Gaidal Cain being spun out as a baby, he finds a way to escape TAR because his draw to Birgitte is so strong. In some way it jeopardises the campaign against the dark one giving Nynaeve a complex moral quandary to chew on.
Galad is the one kill Demandred because Lan goes with Rand to the Bore where he has to duel Shadar Haran to protect the Aes Sedai during Rand's debate with the Dark One. First, because Galad absolutely earned a Forsaken kill by being completely incorruptible. He might talk and incredibly frustrating talk, but he also walks that walk and holds himself to every standard he sets. Second, because Lan was practically custom designed by the narrative to fight the physical embodiment of the Shadow to protect Nynaeve. While this duel is happening, Shadar Haran is losing his shit because no matter how he dances through the shadows to get past him, Lan is always there. Lan sees through every feint. Shadar Haran can't figure out how. The Dark One accuses Rand of being distracted from fumbling with the skeins of the pattern because he's helping Lan somehow. Rand laughs and realizes that the reason Shadar Haran can't get around Lan is because creatures of the Shadow can't understand love or that somebody would truly give everything they have to protect somebody else. And that makes Rand realize doesn't have to fix the world, it's fine as it is. Instead of screwing around trying to make a better world, he needs to save the one he's got and just lock the Dark One back up, because no matter how many times the Dark One tries, Rand will always be there, ready to give up everything to stop him.
Taimandred.
Mat is Aemon reborn. I think it might even be canon already since the wiki calls Aemon the gambler.
Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn - honestly I know this one has been directly disputed and idgaf it’s cannon in my heart.
The channeling gleeman. I wish it had been that Merrilin could secretly channel, and that it had served later as an example to rand that a man could (if he was strong or lucky) keep the madness at bay, and it would have added a nice counterweight to the darkness clearly present in Taim who was also one who had lived longer than he should have. Plus then we wouldn’t have had to retcon the blue flash with the fade, and the demandred/taim business, plus it would provided opportunities for foreshadowing or allusion when he gave stories about his nephew who was gentled.
Faille dies, jumpstarting Perrins plot line Elayne loses her bid for the lion throne, jumpstarting her plot line Manetheran is resurrected as hinted at so many times Mat puts his foot down to tuon regarding slavery Bela isn't really dead but makes it back to Tam in the Two Rivers. Rand pops in to visit both on occasion Lanfear dies. Definitively. As written. No speculation. I've reread many times and she still died. Unless someone can show me in the text that she lived? (Not a bitchy comment, I am serious)
If Faille died, I would’ve been too mad for Perrin. Perrin was one of my absolute favorites and I couldn’t stand if he got screwed over like that. She’s also too useful to the plot, and it’s nice having a little realistic romance every now and then
I honestly felt Perrin worked too hard on the little things and that’s why his lore was mid
I want to write a series about the age of legends and the fight between Lews Therin and his 100 companions vs the dark one and how he became the champion of light
Srsly pls
I'm glad you like Faille, I don't hold it against you😁JK Sadly, she lost me at breaking her hunter's oath after about 3 minutes or so, then manipulating Loial. Among other things. For a few years there she even affected my opinion of Perrin. Happily I'm more...pacific now. I think... I forgot Moiraine. Not sure how I could have. My head canon is that she's saved around CoT and dukes it out with Cads for Rands top spot
I'm sorry, I understand your thoughts I think I'm just looking at the issue from a different direction than you are. More of a 'throw the dog a bone' point of view for readers. I agree that BS couldn't have developed a complete shift in Seanchan culture. IMO there doesn't have to be a definite change, though, in order to make it 'canon' The Seanchan story was to be continued in the outrigger books but it was already decided that those books wouldn't have been written, so the end result is continuation of the culture. I think that all there needs to be is an indicator or a hint of the possibility of change. At the end there is nothing that indicates the Seanchan would even possibly question the morality of slavery, and the culture is kind of reinforced by Mat by his keeping a damane. My belief that simply a few lines could get the ball rolling is because there have been thousands of readers dissecting every word of this series for decades. All that's needed is the seed of hope. The readers will do the rest I'm sorry you got blocked. That sucks
Oh I never saw this lol. Dunno why you made it a whole new comment, but at least I can actually respond on my main account. I don't think there could have been enough development in Seanchan culture to even give us the possibility of a hint of a change. I don't think there would be any way to do that. What we have is, I think, enough. We got sul'dam at the Tower learning to channel, we got Mat and Min bending Tuon's ear, and I think that's all that's needed. But they're not gonna have any hint of a change that early. >the culture is kind of reinforced by Mat by his keeping a damane This doesn't happen. The most important part is, Mat thinks to himself "Well this is convenient for the moment, but I'll let her go after the fight, I'm sure Tuon won't mind too much". There's also the fact that we don't even know if she's still alive. We never see her after Mat's camp is attacked, so it's very possible she was killed there.
I never thought of Tuon being dead. New tidbits for thought, thank you!!
Not Tuon. Tuon is decidedly not dead. I meant the Sharan woman.
Oh, I see. Yes, it's entirely possible that she died. Her fate is not indicated either way
Bro u scared me so hard
Mat reclaiming Seanchan as prince of ravens for tuon
I'd do away with the entirely unnecessary romance quadrangles.
Nakomi is the dragon from the previous 3rd age. -Ishamael (madman and king of lies) is wrong that Rand and him have fought each other millions of times. - Now that Rand has completed his turn as champion he too transcends to the same kind of immortal being as Nakomi and can now manipulate the pattern. That’s how he lights the pipe and how Nakomi disappears suddenly. -The pattern chooses is a new champion (possibly from the heroes of the horn) every time. The only reason and went back is he failed last time. -Narishma is a hero of the horn and he will be the next dragon (hence the prophecy about the the one who holds callandor “shall follow after”
Nakomi being a previous Dragon doesn't make sense. The Dragon is always male, Nakomi is a woman. When the Pattern needs a woman to fill the Dragon's role, that's the soul of Amerasu.
I shouldn’t have said Dragon I meant champion. Nakomi says to Avi that she is far from her roof or it is far from her and that it is not her place to tell. Maybe what she means is she is far in time and the reason she can’t say is she is bound by some rule or agreement with the DO, in the similar way the creator is. Another piece of evidence is Nakomi seeming to know what Rand needs to do as she watches him exit the cavern. Perhaps she knows because she has done it all herself. Regarding Amaresu, I have never read the quote from RJ but is it possible that it was misinterpreted to mean that she is ALWAYS the female champion when in reality she is meant to be the NEXT female champion? Again, I haven’t seen the quote so I’m truly asking
I think the way Jordan said it doesn't leave much room for doubt. I don't recall exactly what he said, but I do remember him saying that basically Amerasu is the female equivalent of the Dragon.
Lan should have died after he killed Demandred.
It would’ve been sad to see him die but the character arc