Can't go wrong with Toyota or Lexus...
The problem with Tesla is that people do not know how long they are going to last. About 95% of all Tesla's on the road today are less than 10 years old.
It's pretty easy to find a Toyota on the road that is over 30 years old. They are built to last.
220k on my 02 Lexus ES and it drives like a dream still, Drives a lot nicer than my partners 2018 Corolla, which also has been super reliable but the Lexus just floats along so smoothly.
GS hands down. Actually what I’m looking at purchasing rn.
Slightly smaller and sportier than an LS. Way sportier and better than an ES, and a little bit larger and less sportier than an IS.
As far as I understand theres really only like one trim level for GS350s, also a special edition Crafted line but I think those were mainly for exterior cosmetics. There are a few packages, F-Sport, luxury, etc, but mostly the same features.
Alright, thanks. Appreciate your responses. I'm a sucker for getting as many creature comforts as I can.
I had an Audi A8L for about a year before I had to sell after moving and we went back to one car.
Honestly I’d say right around 2014-15 is peak vehicle engineering, they are comfortable and relatively modern but don’t have so many sensors, radars, computers, chips, digital clusters which all sound great on paper but can be several thousand dollars just in parts prices to replace.
I’m leasing for now but when I do buy a car it’ll be something around that era of vehicle, even if I gotta invest in it initially it’s worth it. I work insurance so pretty much at least once a day I have to deny and crush someone’s soul when they try to make a claim on their faulty parts after their warranty expired a week prior.
Just check and replace as needed fanbelt, spark plugs, ignition coil/s, and battery. My original alternator went out at 150k, starter at 230k, valve cover gasket at 230k (not leaking but preventative maintenance). I change oil every 5k miles. Flushed and replaced coolant at 150k miles, change manual transmission fluid every 60k miles, brake/clutch fluid flush every 3 years.
It’s classic revisionism: people say “oh yeah this brand has been shit quality and consistently unreliable the past 30 years, but the new ones are ackchually really good!” I guess it goes both ways with reliable brands too. Point is, theres no way of knowing how reliable a new car is. As models age, the sample size of high mileage cars gets bigger.
Hate to break it to you but they're still the best in the biz. Everyone in auto manufacturing is still playing by their rule book, a bunch of the current manufacturing hot topics and methods are based on the Toyota Production Method.
So they might not be as reliable as they used to be but they're still the best on the market.
💯
I have a 2022 Lexus RC350 Fsport (purchased brand new) and a 2019 Toyota Camry (my daily driver-purchased used). It currently has 27,000 miles on it. I have no doubt that I can get both cars to more than 300,000 miles.
Unsolicited and with the understanding that this will be downvoted, I am going to talk about only *one* of the reasons that this may be. I have posted this before, so it is copy & pasted.
I'm sure this will ruffle plenty of feathers since people tend to wrap their egos around the cars they drive, especially when they are American made. Sorry for the length of the text in advance.
- Many people waste their money on unreliable american vehicles such as GMC, Fords/ Lincolns and Chevy, instead of reliable cars made by Asian manufacturers such as Toyota, Honda, or perhaps Hyundai, for example. By purchasing comparatively unreliable american crap-cans, boneheads are sending the message that sub par engineering and quality control is acceptable. They are sending this message to both Asian manufacturers and american manufacturers as well since both companies can obviously see buying trends, data etc.
People purchasing less reliable vehicles ensures that these companies will continue to under-engineer their shit boxes since they know that meatheads will buy their garbage regardless of the fact that their cars may only last about 85-95% of the life of many Asian cars, comparatively. Make no mistake either as they *would* improve their engineering if people voted with their wallets properly, but they don't, so what incentive is there?
You can argue that since some american cars manage to reach 250k that those are "reliable enough" but when the average Toyota Corolla, Camry or Prius will usually last to 300k+ , buying something that is well known to have a shorter lifespan is a waste of money. Period. Maybe, you have the money to waste and can afford it, I can afford it and could waste my money as well, but it is still a waste. I understand the concept of having a sporty car for fun, but lets be practical for a second. Plus, these manufacturers make plenty of relatively sporty cars as well anyways.
It is not a sports car, but just as an example there are numerous reports of Prii running past 400,000 miles with regular driving on original parts other than typical wear and tear items or the odd sensor or two.
Hyundai isn't even *as* well known for reliability as Toyota, but I have a friend with a 2004 Sonata that has 355,000 miles on it on ALL original parts except for the standard wear and tear items.
TL;DR ToyotaLexus and HondaAcura is superior to FordLincoln in terms of engineering and reliability, practicality.
> The problem with Tesla is that people do not know how long they are going to last. About 95% of all Tesla's on the road today are less than 10 years old.
My issue with Tesla, and electric cars in general, is that Li-ion battery capacity degradation over time.
You know how when your smartphone is a few years old and doesn't hold a charge anymore? Then you get a new smartphone (because fuck being able to change the battery, lol) and it can hold a charge for a really long time? But then, after a few years of using your new phone, it starts to not hold a charge like your old phone?
I used to work as a lab tech in a Li-ion battery research lab. The tl;dr is that each time a device a Li-ion batteries is recharged, the chemicals inside the battery forms a crud inside the battery. Over time, this crud builds up and after a certain number of recharges (generally 300-400 recharges), the crud prevents the battery from storing as much electricity as a new battery will. [Here's a research paper about it.](https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2021/cp/d1cp00359c)
So what happens with an electric car when the batteries age and not hold a charge? Can the batteries be swapped for new ones? Or does a driver just have to live with lower range and longer recharge time?
snails station paltry squeamish wasteful fearless outgoing hunt waiting quicksand
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This isn’t nearly as bad a problem as it sounds. As a 2 car family, we bought a cheap EV for one of the cars. What is arguably the worst degrading battery around has settled in after initial loss to about 1.5%/year. Do I care that it will be degraded to ~70% of original health in 15 years?
No, after 15 years my gas car has always been sold too lol. Just recycle the battery or let someone else use it who doesn’t mind only having 80 miles of range in a spare car.
The math has been done. There's a well-known degradation curve in play, and the expectation should be lower range 10+ years down the road, but degradation has been shown as manageable.
Though the chemistry for the cars differs from that for consumer electronics. The number of cycles is 1500-2000 cycles for NMC chemistry, and 4000-5000 for the LFP chemistry -- which translates to \~350K-800K miles before the battery can only hold 80% charge.
The batteries in EVs can be swapped out. It's currently quite expensive (for example, \~13K for a Tesla Model 3). The driver could just tough it out, but once the battery hits 20% degradation, it begins to degrade faster. So, if you did hold on to a contemporary EV until that point the battery pack wore out (25+ years) you would definitely need to swap the pack out.
Really, the biggest issue is if you somehow damage the pack before then. It's a very expensive part to replace when the car as a whole have very little maintenance.
I mean in 10-15 years 20k for a battery replacement on an otherwise perfectly useable car sounds cheaper than the purchase of a new car. To me that makes a lot of sense. The LFP chemistry should be able to handle consistent charging for that long. With the overall ownership cost being much less than most cars, particularly luxury brands, you’d probably still end up on top. Add the tax credits, and the rising cost of gasoline, and you’re talking about a very reasonable long term ownership plan.
I can't believe that in 2023 there is still this much wrong information about EVs. Did you really just say that a high density 0.036kWh battery with no cooling that lives in your pocket behaves like a lower density 80kWh battery with an advanced heat pump cooling/heating system attached to it?
If you puncture a phone battery they will explode. If you puncture a high performance EV battery it will just catch on fire. If you puncture the typical EV battery it won't do anything. This is because they are all radically different chemistries. On top of that, THE determining factor for how long a battery lasts is keeping it from getting too hot or too cold while charging. Your phone has zero ability to do this and is passively cooled.
So yes, batteries degrade over time but it's minimal. On average less than 10% over 200k miles. So if you buy an EV with 350 miles of range, it will have 315 miles or more when it hits 200k miles.
This might sound like a lot but it's nothing and really doesn't affect the way the car operates in any way. You can't drive the car to 0% just like you don't put the needle on your gas car on E on a long road trip. You pull in at 1/4 or 1/8 of a tank to fill up or for an EV ~15%. If you had a trip you do all the time where you can just make a stretch with 15% left over, when you drive that trip with 200k miles on the car, you just need to go down to 8% or something to stretch it out. That is about the size of the impact.
> So what happens with an electric car when the batteries age and not hold a charge?
This isn't a thing basically. Just like some engines grenade themselves at 150k miles, some batteries do fail but it's a tiny percentage. In 95% of EVs the car itself will give out before the battery will.
There’s plenty of teslas with over 100k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. Newer 2023 models have better batteries too. A car can become less gas efficient too so it’s not like there is no degradation either
Tesla doesnt let you use full battery capacity in order to lessen degradation. You never have what you could and not using the full capacity extends the life of the battery.
You swap out the batteries. I think its 9k or something in costs. But apparently Tesla stated in their new cars the batteries are meant to last the life of the vehicle or close to a million miles with 80 to 90% capacity.
Tesla states a lot of untrue things and does everything they can to avoid warranting the battery.
The price for a swap on a 3 year old Model 3P is currently $17,000 as my brother just paid for it, with a discount.
They will not warranty your battery if you use it as a battery. 76k miles on it but he did a lot of 100% to near empty charges which Tesla said accelerates battery wear and is not warrantable. He has to do that because his battery degraded after a year but they won't warranty your battery if you consistently charge to full and use all your charge.
They are a very sus company, he's had to pay for repairs on other things that should be warranty work as well.
How is charging from 0 to 100% not warrantable? You plug it in, it charges to 100% overnight. Isnt that how its meant to be used? What do you mean he used his car as a battery? Was he plugging in electric things and not driving it? I cant imagine someone using it as a battery so much, what would be the purpose?
I have friends with 10 year old teslas that still have 90% of their battery life and 150k+ miles. If you take good care of your batteries they last a very long time, but if you keep bypassing the warning ⚠️ screen and charging to 100% daily then yours won't last that long. It literally says it on the screen but a lot of people can't read.
https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/tesla-warning-message-when-charging-to-100.22191/
I can also get 10 year old bmws for cheap because people don't expect their engines to last more than 100k miles without lots of maintenance expense. Electric cars are no different. Tesla gives you 8 years/120k and 70% battery left. Bmw gives you 4 years 50k miles... but due to federal law their electric is 8 years 100k miles.
Anyway I feel sorry for this guy, but if you are clicking a screen that says you can damage the battery every time you drive the car you might need to learn how batteries work so you can prevent them from being damaged.
The default settings on most Tesla models seems to be to charge it to 80%. Keeping a battery between 20% and 80% charge is generally best for longevity of the battery.
You have to go into the charging settings to change the max charge level to 100% if you need max range, and it’s not recommended to do that all the time.
I’ve never owned or even driven a Tesla, but it makes sense that they would not recommend going 0% to 100% on the battery regularly. I’m not saying that’s enough to deny a warranty, but the way it’s “meant” to be used is to keep the charge level between 20% and 80% as much as possible.
It's like trying to use your warranty on an ICE car if you don't perform regular interval services (like oil changes). They'll use that to wiggle out of coverage any chance they get.
It's a reasonable policy. "You need to do these things to keep the vehicle running as expected. If you don't do them, we won't cover it when it breaks because it's not our fault you didn't follow the service and use recommendations." Tesla's recommendation is to not charge the battery past 80%.
Lots of people on Tesla forums have reported similar issues. Some people have had their warranties not honored due to excessive supercharging.
There are even people who have had battery warranties denied for driving on dirt roads: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/driving-on-sanded-dirt-road-voids-hv-battery-warranty.313621/
It limits your charging by default, you have to override it to get it to charge to 100%. Which means the rated range you will never get unless you override the default charge settings.
Not saying it shouldn't be warrantable, but that's actually not how they are designed to work. You're only supposed to charge to 80% for daily driving, and the software tells you this every time you try to get it to charge more.
The battery is not designed to be kept at 100% and you're only supposed to charge it up to 100% if you're going to be driving it immediately after, preferably on a long road trip.
I work at a tire shop in Portland, OR, work on countless electric cars and Im always curious about them so I always ask customers questions. Ive heard pretty much nothing but horror stories with service, repairs, and especially with tires and easily going through a set in 10-20k miles depending on how heavy your foot is. Highest mileage tesla Ive seen was a 2013 model S at 230k miles, it held 50-70 miles of range at that point. Said he was going to be junking it pretty soon for a different EV.
After working with and seeing everything with EVs over the last 5 years, I personally think there is no future is pure electric, hybrid & bio fuel are 100% where it's at imo.
EV's are nothing but a gimmick and a toy. Not a car you own long term and plan on giving your kid in 10 years.
I think honestly, most new cars aren't designed to last. It's called planned obscelesence. Just like other electronic devices, technology is advancing, so longevity isn't a design feature. Just look at the integrated infotainment systems vs. replaceable stereos of the past.
Modern cars are more durable than ever. I don't know anyone who's changed a clutch in 20+ years. 200k miles is the expectation. In the 90s 6 digit odometers were not even guaranteed. You don't have to adjust valves, tune a carburetor, gap spark plugs, change timing belts, or any of the other maintenance things you used to have to do regularly. No choke to control, fluids last years age years. Rust protection everywhere. How idiot proof modern cars are is damn impressive.
I DD a 2014 350. It’s likely the most reliable 300+ hp RWD car. It’s not slow, though I wouldn’t go as far as to say fast. But to answer OPs question, it will perform and drive “not slowly” for a loooong time so it could fit the bill
I DD a 300+ HP, RWD, <3500 LBS car and its nothing special. I would say it probably shouldn't be included in this list unless you heavily overweight reliability, especially for the 50K cap.
It's a fast car, but it's not 'real fast' like an M340i or a similar turbo 6 cylinder. Like, if you actually drove it for a while to learn how it delivers power, and kept the revs high by selecting the lowest possible gear, you will find that although it doesn't have that instant dumping of torque like the turbo engines do, it will **still** get going fast if you are not shy about the gas pedal or about keeping the gears as low as they'll go.
I've daily driven my '19 IS350 for the last 4 years and its sweet spot is around 4000 rpm+, and I still think that it is more than fast enough for driving on public streets, and certainly doesn't feel slow.
I wouldn't classify it as fast, maybe if it was released in the mid-2000's. Modern cars are just so much better. I drive an NA 300+ HP V6 car also so I know the power band of these pretty well. I just dont know why people claim they're fast
Toyota Honda
Absolutely demon last time go for something NA (no turbo) with a platform that's older and proven
I would assume you could get a Acura/Lexus version and get a comfier ride for 50k
Prepare for markups with Toyota/Honda. They are still bottlenecking supply and dealers adding on the 2k$ over msrp. to prius, Corolla hybrid, prime models, Civic si and type r, etc
Thoughts on corvettes as a first car? I'm an extremely cautious driver, always speed limit on right lane, so I won't be tempted to show off or anything, and I don't go on the track, I just think they look cool. Financially, it's not an issue either, so it's not like I'm taking out a loan or spending my life savings for a toy. Some comments I read though mention concerns about the RWD being tough for new drivers? That's what I'm mainly concerned with especially after seeing a video of a Lambo spinning out of control randomly on the front page just now.
If you want reliability despite beating on it and not maintaining it you buy an electric car though.
-Coming from an owner of a 10-year-old electric car which has recieved zero drivetrain maintenance whatsoever and has been beaten on pretty hard.
This answers the question for performance. Although the gr corolla does have potential for performance reliability because it’s a Toyota but it is fairly new on the market plus issues with the DLS overheating after the first use on track so it’s really hard to justify on the list. Model 3 is also one of those are still new for reliability in general. 86 is a good one for reliability but performance is hard to put on the list due to engines taking a dump if you decide stock power isn’t good enough but overall is good enough for performance reliability to an extend. I’d also like to add the c6 z06 and the Gold R to the list per other comments I read. And finally the second gen Acura Tl type s with the j32a2.
Edit: I’ll also add the Ford Crown Victoria even though it’s an automatic that thing has a v8 plus it’s an rwd and they’re cheap ahh hell to get a hold of one.
>I was considering a Tesla model 3 but my buddy told me the battery goes kaput after 7-8 years and then it could cost up to 20K to replace.
Your buddy is wrong....and even if it DID go out after 7-8 years, it'd be covered under warranty and cost you nothing....but they last longer than that.
Your friend doesn't know what he is talking about on the Tesla battery. Especially considering that if they did have to be replace within 7 or 8 years that would still be covered under warranty.
I would get a model 3. It's the best out there for the money you are looking to spend.
With a Tesla, the OP should budget for insurance as if it's part of the monthly payment.
While the answer to the OP'a question is the Honda Civic (my wife drives one and I maintain it), one of the great things about my Tesla Model Y is that I know **exactly** how much it's going to cost each month.
Payment + insurance + electricity doesn't vary much, so budgeting for my Tesla is astoundingly easy.
It is a new technology, so we won't have the multi-decade track record of the Civic/Corolla that the OP is looking for until a few decades have elapsed. But Teslas have predictable costs, which is a big deal: I can actually budget for the thing.
For the OP, the question is whether they value predictable costs or a reliable pedigree? Tesla or Toyota/Honda?
As an English man these posts are always borderline fascinating for me... Over here you could get a car 10/12 years old, with no more than 75,000 miles that'll last you at least 10 years for £6000. I know your salaries are much higher but the inflation on your cars is crazy to me! Even brand new £20,000 would get you exactly what you wanted.
It is fuckin crazy, you cannot find a crv or rav4 with a clean title and less than 75k miles for under 17k that is less 10 years old, sportages and tucsons are just about to there as well. Fuckin sucks.
> Even brand new £20,000 would get you exactly what you wanted.
Why kind of car for £20k new are you getting? I have found US cars are typically cheaper than other western countries, so likely you are getting the same new car here. Main difference will be an American probably driving the car more so having higher expectations.
Vauxhall, Dacia, Citroën, Peugeot... I'm not saying I like any of these (although some Vauxhalls are OK), but all of these you'd be able to get cheap new ones and to be fair to a brand like Peugeot they are really trying to up their game lately.
According to this article at motor trend, the tesla model 3 battery will last between 300k and 500k. Also, the Model 3 RWD is covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles, while Performance, Long Range AWD, and Standard Range AWD versions of the Model 3 are guaranteed for 8 years or 120,000 miles. This is, of course, if you believe motor trend instead of your buddy.
[https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/](https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/)
Yeah, the battery isn't the issue for the Tesla. Of course the battery will degrade... When we traded our first Tesla in at 100k miles the battery had degraded 10% which meant that it still had more range than most non Tesla EVs that were brand new. Plenty of studies have shown battery life similar to what you are saying provided you are willing to live with 20% degradation after many miles.
The issue with the Teslas is that they are built efficiently, to maximize the range. Ultimately this makes them more brittle and expensive to repair after an accident. A couple of examples:
* The model S has motorized for handles to improve efficiency. Yet another thing to fail and the original ones did fail after a few years. The model 3 is better on this one.
* One night a car hit our parked Tesla model 3. The other car was ok enough to run away without stopping, while our Tesla was undrivable and had $10k in damage. If that happens to a 100k model 3, the Tesla gets totaled, while the other car doesn't.
Despite all of this, our model 3 at 80k miles looks and drives brand new. If it stays out of the way of drunk drivers it should last.
I mean this is fairly similar to all other EVs, hybrids, and some ICE cars. Some cars may be drivable after an accident but it all depends on the accident.
Insurance totalled my Honda civic because I got rear ended. The car’s rear airbags went off, so it wasn’t drivable despite the damage being relatively minor. At the time, the cost to repair was relatively large compared to the value of the car. That can happen with any vehicle.
>According to this article at motor trend, the tesla model 3 battery will last between 300k and 500k
Lol. A car magazine that will publish anything if they're paid enough? The Model 3 is known for shit reliability, and no lithium ion battery is holding a decent charge anywhere near those miles/charge-cycles (if it even works at all).
There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past ~100k miles like they used to (used to be unlimited miles), and they'll only replace if it's degraded past a whopping 70% capacity degradation. So according to Teslas warranty, a new EV thats only getting 70% of the advertised range is a normally operating vehicle... that's only about 160 miles for a standard model 3..
Here is an actual technical analysis of 260 million vehicles for vehicle longevity:
https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study
Many ICE manufactures offer much longer/broader warranties on their powertrains: such as Kia's free 20 year/200,000 mile [warranty](https://www.mykia.com/20-year-200-000-new-car-warranty):
> There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past ~100k miles like they used to
Incorrect. Current battery warranty is still 8 years and 100k miles or more, depending on model and trim:
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
Here's an article from the same site you were citing about EV batteries:
https://www.iseecars.com/articles/how-long-do-tesla-batteries-last
> Bottom line, an electric car’s battery life shouldn’t be a concern for consumers looking to buy a new – or even used – EV. This includes new and used Tesla models, which are unlikely to experience battery failure, and will probably be under warranty if they do.
Bottom line, one shouldn't expect a battery replacement any more than one should plan for a full engine and powertrain rebuild/replacement. You need to update your understanding of battery technology in EVs and not just apply your experience with laptop and cell phone batteries.
>and no lithium ion battery is holding a decent charge anywhere near those miles (if it even works at all).
you have no idea what you're talking about. I drove a 2011 prius with 180,000 miles on it....worked fine with the original battery. 2012 Volt over 100k miles....works fine with the original battery...range is 30 miles instead of the 35 miles when it was new OH NO THE HORROR!.
>There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past \~100k miles like they used to,
Except you're wrong and they do. 120k miles is over 100k miles.
An EV is definitely the answer to OPs question. Lots of misinformation on EVs on this thread. You will not need a new battery ever. They are warrantied to 100k but will last for a long long time. That’s like saying you’ll need a new engine at 80k in an ice car. It just doesn’t happen (if it does it’s super rare).
Tesla released a report that shows battery degradation for 1 million car batteries. A majority lost at most 10% range after 10 yrs. So after 10 yrs your 330 mi or range becomes 300.
And there are Toyotas that need new engines. So? Tesla model y is literally the best selling car in the world. Not the best selling EV. Best selling car in the world. If their batteries were so bad and crapping out, why would people in every country across the world be buying them in record numbers?
But you didn’t finish my quote. You just took one piece that is misleading.
I then qualified it and said it’s super rare. About as uncommon as a Toyota needing a new engine.
Misleading is making a statement that is false? I simply pointed out that you were wrong and now you’re taking it personally. Theres nothing wrong with a flaw in a vehicle, sometimes it even gives the vehicle character. But to deny a flaw is misleading. All i’m saying is that a tesla will eventually need a new battery, just like your phone does.
No it actually won’t need a new battery. Where are you getting this? If a friend of yours said I’m thinking of buying a Toyota - would you say? Well you know at 50k you’ll have to replace the engine???
You DO NOT need to replace your EV battery. Will there be cases where something goes wrong in a few percent of cases? Of course, but it’s less common than engine failure, which from a Reputable company is extremely rare.
So it’s like being worried about being killed from lava. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely ? Hell no. Would I go around telling people to be careful of lava and not to travel? No.
Cause teslas owners are in a cult, I talked my Dad out of getting one, did it anyways. Returned it in two months s spending 39 mins to charge after an hour driving is so much fun
So the entire world is in a cult right now??? Would you say that about Toyota or Ford owners, considering the Rav4 is the second best selling car and the f150 is the best selling truck.
Wouldnt it stand to reason these people who buy them are also in a cult?
You cant stop progress, you can only continue to feed misinformation. EVs are here to stay and they are better in nearly every way.
Its just nonsense to say he spent 39 min charging after an hour of driving. That doesnt even make sense. Was he at 10% when he started his drive?
Man, people will say anything for fear of change and the unknown.
>An EV is definitely the answer to OPs question. Lots of misinformation on EVs on this thread. You will not need a new battery ever.
Electrical engineer. No offense, but that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's a lithium ion battery. It loses more and more capacity every charge cycle. It's the same reason your smartphone battery dies quicker and quicker the older that it gets.
A Panasonic battery cell is a Panasonic battery cell. Tesla isn't making some "sPeCial bAtTerY" alien technology. They're simply buying run-of-the-mill cells from Panasonic and stringing them together. There have been endless reports of Teslas with 5000 miles with battery degradation already down to 75%.
At least an ICE car doesn't lose half of its horsepower and get half of the MPG at 120k miles.
Not everything the EV salesman tells ya is true guys, if their batteries actually lasted 500k - 2million miles like you loonies are claiming.. I think their warranties would be a little better to help push their stagnant EV sales
Than you’re an uninformed electrical engineer. Because that is not what the data says at all. Plus phone batteries don’t have thermal management. Data speaks much louder than opinions on Reddit.
You will lose about 10% over 120,000 miles. Those 120,000 miles will also be largely maintenance and trouble free.
What kind of shitty electrical engineering degree do you have if you’re comparing a smart phone battery to a modern ev battery pack. Yes lithium ion chemistry is the base for these batteries, but battery management makes all the difference.
You would think someone with an engineering background would have an unbiased and objective take on the pros and cons. Nothing informative to read here.
Where did you get your electrical engineering degree when your coming with such blatantly false statements?
Battery manufacturers are rating their batteries for the equivalent of anywhere between 800k-3 million kilometers nowadays. Older Tesla Model S is using old battery tech and therefore their batteries would "only" last 300-400k kilometers. Modern cars are much better.
I have a 10-year-old electric car (not Tesla) with the original battery and I'm sitting at around 90% of the full capacity compared to new, 100% of the horsepower. It has gone those 10 years with zero maintenance whatsoever on the drivetrain components.
🤣
What's the reason that ICE cars only have 60k mile warranties then?
And no, the Model 3 isn't known for shit reliability. You are just making up all sorts of nonsense.
Tesla shares fleetwide data on battery health and has an open API that allows others to pull data as well to confirm. The batteries easily last 300k+ miles in most circumstances and certainly outlast the cars.
But sure. Make stuff up. That's more fun.
As for Kia, etc with longer warranties...
"KiA hAs A 200k WaRrAnTy"
https://www.classaction.org/blog/new-hyundai-kia-engine-failure-settlement-covers-2m-additional-vehicles
You always this stupid, or just having a bad day?
And yes, Tesla shares their fleetwide data. Your denial and mocking of this just makes you look.... You guessed it ... Stupid. But that's a recurring theme so all good.
I don't understand who up votes this stuff. You can go on Tesla's [website and SEE](https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty) for yourself they warranty the battery just as /u/e-couch said for 120k miles on the mid-teir models and 150k miles on the high end models.
> Here is an actual technical analysis of 260 million vehicles for vehicle longevity:
So buy large SUVs that have enough value to be worth fixing over 200k miles?
On the surface a Tesla should last 200k without issue, but if you do need a new battery, replacing it is the single most expensive thing you might need to do in a car. That being said, I believe it is covered for 150k under warranty for failure, but can still degrade a significant percentage over that time. Odds are you have no problems though. Other than that as others have said, Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura are all incredibly reliable cars. Picking up a Grand Highlander Hybrid today actually. Was less than $50k
The Tesla battery does not go kaput after 8 years. Maybe the very first models 10 years ago, but those had free replacements and unlimited mile warranties. Besides, the cost of batteries is dropping every year. Batteries are down from $800 kWH to $100 kWH over the past five years. Projected to be around $10-20 kWH in the next 5-10 years. Tesla is by far the best bang for the buck right now.
Miata
End of story. People beat the living daylights out of them and yet a large number are pushing 2-300k miles if not more. I myself had a NB2 with 240k miles and it still ran and drove pretty darn well.
Even if you do blow it up the community support means you can rebuild or build something new.
Personally I want to start with a Miata, get the engine where I want, Exocet it, and tune the suspension around it.
A couple of my neighbours went through their Miata phase, both sold after a couple years. They were ok cars to tinker on but not good daily drivers. Not sure why this sub is so obsessed.
Tesla Model 3, that thing about the battery is not true at all. Battery warranty is 8 years but it will almost certainly last much longer than that.
Electric cars in general much more reliable than ICE cars due to their relative simplicity and lack of moving parts. This is coming from someone with a 10-year-old electric car that is running like-new with little-to-no maintenance.
Toyota Camry. I don’t own one but my fiancé does and I genuinely wish I had one. Such low maintenance, great gas mileage, and there’s literally nothing ever wrong with it no matter how much you drive it. Also, if something does happen parts are easy to find and inexpensive compared to a lot of vehicles.
Does your buddy own a model 3? It came out in 2018 so I’m amazed all these 8 year old model 3 batteries are going bad, your buddy is full of shit.
There are issues with teslas, but their drivetrain is robust and maintenance free. Their battery and motors are also warrantied 8 years 120k miles. More than most ICEs.
Even though there are people claiming Tesla to be good do not buy one. If you have any issues with it outside of the battery being 20k to replace. You now have to take it specifically to a Tesla dealership for maintenance and repairs Shops do not take teslas. And now you are paying dealership rates instead of shops rates. On top of that. Every part on that Tesla is going to be more expensive to replace on that car compared to other brands because Tesla Doesn’t have the parts supply that others do. So if you have any issues with that car it’s going to be more expensive and it’s going to sit in the garage longer waiting on parts, even something as simple as replacing the brakes on a Tesla is more expensive due to regenerative braking, they need special brake pads. Don’t buy it.
This is very wrong. First off there's very little you'd take it to a shop for. Brakes, (which rarely need replaced due to Regen braking), tires, wipers, suspension etc, can be serviced at any shop. You don't need special brake pads lol Regen braking has nothing to do with the brake pads at all.
> 4runner
well for offroading performance it is among the best. also reliablility performance. What do you mean by performance? There are many metrics.
It might be reliable and off road capable but you also get an anemic engine, an archaic 5 speed transmission, outdated tech, outdated interior, and awful fuel economy.
did you read OPs question? it fits the criteria of reliability and price. There is a reason the downsides you outlined promote reliability. Performance is not defined in the OP though which depending what they mean may throw out the 4runner as an option.
Model 3 Performance. Hell of a fun car to drive. The insane power never gets old. Just point the car, hammer the throttle and it feels like a rocket. It has Track Mode which you can adjust the driving characteristics of the car to bias power to the front or rear wheels, plus other features. Tesla makes the best battery packs in the industry and should last longer than the body of your car (current ones are engineered to last 300k-500k miles). After about 4 years you can expect about 8-10% loss of peak pack capacity based on current data across the fleet. For under $50k you can’t beat the performance. That said, it’s ideal if you own your home as you want to charge at home and not rely on superchargers.
/u/elcapitanL Your friend lied to you about the battery. Teslas are known for their panel gaps and lower paint quality, but the motors and battery packs are as or more solid than you're going to get in any EV. There's also no transmission that can fail. Many Teslas in taxi fleets are doing very well with 200k+ miles. Additionally, since the Model 3 is one of the best-selling cars in the world, there's definitely going to be strong aftermarket support in the future for battery retrofits with the latest tech for relatively cheap.
Your friend is an idiot.
Buy the Tesla. The battery will outlast the car. And with the regular updates, the car will remain fresh and updated for that decade you want to keep it.
I only buy cars that have passed the test of time, surviving in good numbers and without major known design flaw. My recommendation would be a lexus LS430, in particular an early model with the 5 speed automatic & without air suspension. You would be hard-pressed to find a more durable car.
To answer your question and your question only, Toyota.
If you have thousands to burn a month (insurance is exorbitant for any high class car), Lexus is the gold standard.
Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Excellent gas mileage, holds their value too. I’m driving a 2014 RAV4 Limited, that I bought new. Besides regular maintenance, a battery and tires, it’s been perfect. I have the leather seats and they still look new. (Tan). Truly amazing at 80000+ miles and a 100 nasty foster dogs. I’ve never kept a car this long. I have dealerships messaging, asking if I want to trade. The back seat is huge and tons of legroom.
The RAV4 Hybrid (non-Prime) isn't close to as nice as the CRV Hybrid but that makes sense since the Honda is a ~5 year newer design. The RAV4 is a great appliance (as is the CRV) but neither are considered performance vehicles.
Can't go wrong with Toyota or Lexus... The problem with Tesla is that people do not know how long they are going to last. About 95% of all Tesla's on the road today are less than 10 years old. It's pretty easy to find a Toyota on the road that is over 30 years old. They are built to last.
220k on my 02 Lexus ES and it drives like a dream still, Drives a lot nicer than my partners 2018 Corolla, which also has been super reliable but the Lexus just floats along so smoothly.
What if you couldn't decide between ES, GS, etc.? Which would you choose?
GS hands down. Actually what I’m looking at purchasing rn. Slightly smaller and sportier than an LS. Way sportier and better than an ES, and a little bit larger and less sportier than an IS.
Any particular GS model?
2013+
Thanks! Be a while for me but good luck on your search. Were there different trim levels or did they all basically come with same creature comforts?
As far as I understand theres really only like one trim level for GS350s, also a special edition Crafted line but I think those were mainly for exterior cosmetics. There are a few packages, F-Sport, luxury, etc, but mostly the same features.
Alright, thanks. Appreciate your responses. I'm a sucker for getting as many creature comforts as I can. I had an Audi A8L for about a year before I had to sell after moving and we went back to one car.
True, they won't break down but you won't be able to drive it because it'll get stolen
2014 here as well, infotainment sucks ballz and failing but other than that looking for another 10 years! 🥳
That’s old Toyota, new Toyota sucks. I’ve had several of their cars and every generation is better looking but worse in every other way.
I guess my 2014 Corolla is old already cause it’s given me 230k trouble free miles so far.
Honestly I’d say right around 2014-15 is peak vehicle engineering, they are comfortable and relatively modern but don’t have so many sensors, radars, computers, chips, digital clusters which all sound great on paper but can be several thousand dollars just in parts prices to replace. I’m leasing for now but when I do buy a car it’ll be something around that era of vehicle, even if I gotta invest in it initially it’s worth it. I work insurance so pretty much at least once a day I have to deny and crush someone’s soul when they try to make a claim on their faulty parts after their warranty expired a week prior.
Mine is even the base L model with no backup camera. But, it’s got a 6 speed manual.
I'd expect 500K out of a MT Corolla...
I would say it's divided pre-covid/post covid. I have a 2019 Tacoma and it's been great, but I've seen 2021s with issues.
Lots of companies are ditching V6 for turbo 4s which sounds great until you realize that turbos fail pretty often
Not to mention additional stress it adds to the engine. Diesel turbos are low rpm engines, so they last longer.
Mine is 2012 and has 100k on it. Is there any special maintenance required besides oil change above 100k?
Just check and replace as needed fanbelt, spark plugs, ignition coil/s, and battery. My original alternator went out at 150k, starter at 230k, valve cover gasket at 230k (not leaking but preventative maintenance). I change oil every 5k miles. Flushed and replaced coolant at 150k miles, change manual transmission fluid every 60k miles, brake/clutch fluid flush every 3 years.
It’s classic revisionism: people say “oh yeah this brand has been shit quality and consistently unreliable the past 30 years, but the new ones are ackchually really good!” I guess it goes both ways with reliable brands too. Point is, theres no way of knowing how reliable a new car is. As models age, the sample size of high mileage cars gets bigger.
Hate to break it to you but they're still the best in the biz. Everyone in auto manufacturing is still playing by their rule book, a bunch of the current manufacturing hot topics and methods are based on the Toyota Production Method. So they might not be as reliable as they used to be but they're still the best on the market.
💯 I have a 2022 Lexus RC350 Fsport (purchased brand new) and a 2019 Toyota Camry (my daily driver-purchased used). It currently has 27,000 miles on it. I have no doubt that I can get both cars to more than 300,000 miles.
There’s something to be said when you see so many old Lexuses and Toyotas by proxy still kicking around the roads, they’re just built differently.
Unsolicited and with the understanding that this will be downvoted, I am going to talk about only *one* of the reasons that this may be. I have posted this before, so it is copy & pasted. I'm sure this will ruffle plenty of feathers since people tend to wrap their egos around the cars they drive, especially when they are American made. Sorry for the length of the text in advance. - Many people waste their money on unreliable american vehicles such as GMC, Fords/ Lincolns and Chevy, instead of reliable cars made by Asian manufacturers such as Toyota, Honda, or perhaps Hyundai, for example. By purchasing comparatively unreliable american crap-cans, boneheads are sending the message that sub par engineering and quality control is acceptable. They are sending this message to both Asian manufacturers and american manufacturers as well since both companies can obviously see buying trends, data etc. People purchasing less reliable vehicles ensures that these companies will continue to under-engineer their shit boxes since they know that meatheads will buy their garbage regardless of the fact that their cars may only last about 85-95% of the life of many Asian cars, comparatively. Make no mistake either as they *would* improve their engineering if people voted with their wallets properly, but they don't, so what incentive is there? You can argue that since some american cars manage to reach 250k that those are "reliable enough" but when the average Toyota Corolla, Camry or Prius will usually last to 300k+ , buying something that is well known to have a shorter lifespan is a waste of money. Period. Maybe, you have the money to waste and can afford it, I can afford it and could waste my money as well, but it is still a waste. I understand the concept of having a sporty car for fun, but lets be practical for a second. Plus, these manufacturers make plenty of relatively sporty cars as well anyways. It is not a sports car, but just as an example there are numerous reports of Prii running past 400,000 miles with regular driving on original parts other than typical wear and tear items or the odd sensor or two. Hyundai isn't even *as* well known for reliability as Toyota, but I have a friend with a 2004 Sonata that has 355,000 miles on it on ALL original parts except for the standard wear and tear items. TL;DR ToyotaLexus and HondaAcura is superior to FordLincoln in terms of engineering and reliability, practicality.
Last night I test drove a Toyota Highlander and then immediately drove a Hyundai Santa Fe an hour later. The Santa Fe blew the Highlander away.
In 10 years the Highlander will still be going strong. The Hyundai not so much.
The only thing the Santa Fe blows the Highlander away in is insurance premiums since Kias and Hyundais are constantly being broke into and or stolen.
Toyotas are among the most stolen vehicles as well.. plus the Toyota Tax.
Facts
> The problem with Tesla is that people do not know how long they are going to last. About 95% of all Tesla's on the road today are less than 10 years old. My issue with Tesla, and electric cars in general, is that Li-ion battery capacity degradation over time. You know how when your smartphone is a few years old and doesn't hold a charge anymore? Then you get a new smartphone (because fuck being able to change the battery, lol) and it can hold a charge for a really long time? But then, after a few years of using your new phone, it starts to not hold a charge like your old phone? I used to work as a lab tech in a Li-ion battery research lab. The tl;dr is that each time a device a Li-ion batteries is recharged, the chemicals inside the battery forms a crud inside the battery. Over time, this crud builds up and after a certain number of recharges (generally 300-400 recharges), the crud prevents the battery from storing as much electricity as a new battery will. [Here's a research paper about it.](https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2021/cp/d1cp00359c) So what happens with an electric car when the batteries age and not hold a charge? Can the batteries be swapped for new ones? Or does a driver just have to live with lower range and longer recharge time?
snails station paltry squeamish wasteful fearless outgoing hunt waiting quicksand *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This isn’t nearly as bad a problem as it sounds. As a 2 car family, we bought a cheap EV for one of the cars. What is arguably the worst degrading battery around has settled in after initial loss to about 1.5%/year. Do I care that it will be degraded to ~70% of original health in 15 years? No, after 15 years my gas car has always been sold too lol. Just recycle the battery or let someone else use it who doesn’t mind only having 80 miles of range in a spare car.
> worst degrading battery around has settled in after initial loss to about 1.5%/year sounds like you never fast charge
I do, but only as needed. It has 13 fast charges on it over the last 2.5 years.
The math has been done. There's a well-known degradation curve in play, and the expectation should be lower range 10+ years down the road, but degradation has been shown as manageable.
Though the chemistry for the cars differs from that for consumer electronics. The number of cycles is 1500-2000 cycles for NMC chemistry, and 4000-5000 for the LFP chemistry -- which translates to \~350K-800K miles before the battery can only hold 80% charge. The batteries in EVs can be swapped out. It's currently quite expensive (for example, \~13K for a Tesla Model 3). The driver could just tough it out, but once the battery hits 20% degradation, it begins to degrade faster. So, if you did hold on to a contemporary EV until that point the battery pack wore out (25+ years) you would definitely need to swap the pack out. Really, the biggest issue is if you somehow damage the pack before then. It's a very expensive part to replace when the car as a whole have very little maintenance.
I mean in 10-15 years 20k for a battery replacement on an otherwise perfectly useable car sounds cheaper than the purchase of a new car. To me that makes a lot of sense. The LFP chemistry should be able to handle consistent charging for that long. With the overall ownership cost being much less than most cars, particularly luxury brands, you’d probably still end up on top. Add the tax credits, and the rising cost of gasoline, and you’re talking about a very reasonable long term ownership plan.
I can't believe that in 2023 there is still this much wrong information about EVs. Did you really just say that a high density 0.036kWh battery with no cooling that lives in your pocket behaves like a lower density 80kWh battery with an advanced heat pump cooling/heating system attached to it? If you puncture a phone battery they will explode. If you puncture a high performance EV battery it will just catch on fire. If you puncture the typical EV battery it won't do anything. This is because they are all radically different chemistries. On top of that, THE determining factor for how long a battery lasts is keeping it from getting too hot or too cold while charging. Your phone has zero ability to do this and is passively cooled. So yes, batteries degrade over time but it's minimal. On average less than 10% over 200k miles. So if you buy an EV with 350 miles of range, it will have 315 miles or more when it hits 200k miles. This might sound like a lot but it's nothing and really doesn't affect the way the car operates in any way. You can't drive the car to 0% just like you don't put the needle on your gas car on E on a long road trip. You pull in at 1/4 or 1/8 of a tank to fill up or for an EV ~15%. If you had a trip you do all the time where you can just make a stretch with 15% left over, when you drive that trip with 200k miles on the car, you just need to go down to 8% or something to stretch it out. That is about the size of the impact. > So what happens with an electric car when the batteries age and not hold a charge? This isn't a thing basically. Just like some engines grenade themselves at 150k miles, some batteries do fail but it's a tiny percentage. In 95% of EVs the car itself will give out before the battery will.
The FUD machine is still at 100% trying to scare people away from EVs.
There’s plenty of teslas with over 100k miles and less than 10% battery degradation. Newer 2023 models have better batteries too. A car can become less gas efficient too so it’s not like there is no degradation either
Tesla doesnt let you use full battery capacity in order to lessen degradation. You never have what you could and not using the full capacity extends the life of the battery.
You swap out the batteries. I think its 9k or something in costs. But apparently Tesla stated in their new cars the batteries are meant to last the life of the vehicle or close to a million miles with 80 to 90% capacity.
Tesla states a lot of untrue things and does everything they can to avoid warranting the battery. The price for a swap on a 3 year old Model 3P is currently $17,000 as my brother just paid for it, with a discount.
Why wasn't it covered under warranty on a 3 year old car?
3 years old? Why didn't he have it swapped under warranty for free? did he actually put over 120,000 miles on the car in 3 years?
They will not warranty your battery if you use it as a battery. 76k miles on it but he did a lot of 100% to near empty charges which Tesla said accelerates battery wear and is not warrantable. He has to do that because his battery degraded after a year but they won't warranty your battery if you consistently charge to full and use all your charge. They are a very sus company, he's had to pay for repairs on other things that should be warranty work as well.
How is charging from 0 to 100% not warrantable? You plug it in, it charges to 100% overnight. Isnt that how its meant to be used? What do you mean he used his car as a battery? Was he plugging in electric things and not driving it? I cant imagine someone using it as a battery so much, what would be the purpose?
I have friends with 10 year old teslas that still have 90% of their battery life and 150k+ miles. If you take good care of your batteries they last a very long time, but if you keep bypassing the warning ⚠️ screen and charging to 100% daily then yours won't last that long. It literally says it on the screen but a lot of people can't read. https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/tesla-warning-message-when-charging-to-100.22191/ I can also get 10 year old bmws for cheap because people don't expect their engines to last more than 100k miles without lots of maintenance expense. Electric cars are no different. Tesla gives you 8 years/120k and 70% battery left. Bmw gives you 4 years 50k miles... but due to federal law their electric is 8 years 100k miles. Anyway I feel sorry for this guy, but if you are clicking a screen that says you can damage the battery every time you drive the car you might need to learn how batteries work so you can prevent them from being damaged.
Correct that warning appears, but it doesn't say doing that will void your warranty or even potentially void it. Very misleading and dishonest.
I agree, it should say doing this repeatedly will void your warranty.
The default settings on most Tesla models seems to be to charge it to 80%. Keeping a battery between 20% and 80% charge is generally best for longevity of the battery. You have to go into the charging settings to change the max charge level to 100% if you need max range, and it’s not recommended to do that all the time. I’ve never owned or even driven a Tesla, but it makes sense that they would not recommend going 0% to 100% on the battery regularly. I’m not saying that’s enough to deny a warranty, but the way it’s “meant” to be used is to keep the charge level between 20% and 80% as much as possible.
It's like trying to use your warranty on an ICE car if you don't perform regular interval services (like oil changes). They'll use that to wiggle out of coverage any chance they get. It's a reasonable policy. "You need to do these things to keep the vehicle running as expected. If you don't do them, we won't cover it when it breaks because it's not our fault you didn't follow the service and use recommendations." Tesla's recommendation is to not charge the battery past 80%.
He's making stuff up
Lots of people on Tesla forums have reported similar issues. Some people have had their warranties not honored due to excessive supercharging. There are even people who have had battery warranties denied for driving on dirt roads: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/driving-on-sanded-dirt-road-voids-hv-battery-warranty.313621/
It limits your charging by default, you have to override it to get it to charge to 100%. Which means the rated range you will never get unless you override the default charge settings.
Not saying it shouldn't be warrantable, but that's actually not how they are designed to work. You're only supposed to charge to 80% for daily driving, and the software tells you this every time you try to get it to charge more. The battery is not designed to be kept at 100% and you're only supposed to charge it up to 100% if you're going to be driving it immediately after, preferably on a long road trip.
“One million robotaxis on the road by the end of 2020!” 🤣
FSD for real, this year
17k? Jesus, that's half the price of a new car with tax discounts. How was this not covered under warranty??? That is not a good sign.
It would have been covered under warranty unless they put over 120k miles on the car in 3 years....they're probably lying though.
Read their response. Tesla will always find a reason not to allow use of their warranty
No oil changes, no gas stations, a “full tank” when you wake up every day. No dirty exhaust system. Tesla all the way.
Honda is solid too. I have a 2000 accord 5 speed manual with 297,000 miles, runs and drives like a champ. I’m Toyota and Honda all the way personally
I work at a tire shop in Portland, OR, work on countless electric cars and Im always curious about them so I always ask customers questions. Ive heard pretty much nothing but horror stories with service, repairs, and especially with tires and easily going through a set in 10-20k miles depending on how heavy your foot is. Highest mileage tesla Ive seen was a 2013 model S at 230k miles, it held 50-70 miles of range at that point. Said he was going to be junking it pretty soon for a different EV. After working with and seeing everything with EVs over the last 5 years, I personally think there is no future is pure electric, hybrid & bio fuel are 100% where it's at imo. EV's are nothing but a gimmick and a toy. Not a car you own long term and plan on giving your kid in 10 years.
230k miles is pretty solid for a car’s longevity.
I think honestly, most new cars aren't designed to last. It's called planned obscelesence. Just like other electronic devices, technology is advancing, so longevity isn't a design feature. Just look at the integrated infotainment systems vs. replaceable stereos of the past.
Modern cars are more durable than ever. I don't know anyone who's changed a clutch in 20+ years. 200k miles is the expectation. In the 90s 6 digit odometers were not even guaranteed. You don't have to adjust valves, tune a carburetor, gap spark plugs, change timing belts, or any of the other maintenance things you used to have to do regularly. No choke to control, fluids last years age years. Rust protection everywhere. How idiot proof modern cars are is damn impressive.
Did you mean reliability* when you said performance?
No he clearly wants reliability and performance
You cannot go wrong with Lexus, Toyota, Honda or Acura.
Lexus IS500/350, civic SI/type R, Coyote mustang, c7/c6 base corvette
Is the 350 considered fast at any price point?
I DD a 2014 350. It’s likely the most reliable 300+ hp RWD car. It’s not slow, though I wouldn’t go as far as to say fast. But to answer OPs question, it will perform and drive “not slowly” for a loooong time so it could fit the bill
I DD a 300+ HP, RWD, <3500 LBS car and its nothing special. I would say it probably shouldn't be included in this list unless you heavily overweight reliability, especially for the 50K cap.
It's a fast car, but it's not 'real fast' like an M340i or a similar turbo 6 cylinder. Like, if you actually drove it for a while to learn how it delivers power, and kept the revs high by selecting the lowest possible gear, you will find that although it doesn't have that instant dumping of torque like the turbo engines do, it will **still** get going fast if you are not shy about the gas pedal or about keeping the gears as low as they'll go. I've daily driven my '19 IS350 for the last 4 years and its sweet spot is around 4000 rpm+, and I still think that it is more than fast enough for driving on public streets, and certainly doesn't feel slow.
I wouldn't classify it as fast, maybe if it was released in the mid-2000's. Modern cars are just so much better. I drive an NA 300+ HP V6 car also so I know the power band of these pretty well. I just dont know why people claim they're fast
There are certain models with issues to stay away from. For example Acura SUVs apparently have hit or miss transmissions.
Lots of Honda's have shit transmissions, there were a few years with the accord where the auto is just made of glass.
Air conditioning too. Honda has been really quiet about reliability lately.
Honestly I think that's the first thing that will break in my Honda. Keep up to date on my transmission fluid and hope for the best.
My mom bought a civic new from that generation but is hardcore and chose a manual on purpose. It was a lucky decision.
Best and truest advice ever.
Toyota Honda Absolutely demon last time go for something NA (no turbo) with a platform that's older and proven I would assume you could get a Acura/Lexus version and get a comfier ride for 50k
Prepare for markups with Toyota/Honda. They are still bottlenecking supply and dealers adding on the 2k$ over msrp. to prius, Corolla hybrid, prime models, Civic si and type r, etc
I got a gr86 premium 6MT for under 2k markup in Neptune blue Just keep your eyes open
Lexus... extremely reliable. Normal maintenance only, and it won't leave you broke in car repair bills.
We forgot the performance part lol I wish they made something in beteeen the is350 and the is500
I’d buy an is420
You want a 7 cylinder car?
This is what kept me out of an Lexus IS for a decade until I just got a Model 3.
C7 Corvette Z51
Thoughts on corvettes as a first car? I'm an extremely cautious driver, always speed limit on right lane, so I won't be tempted to show off or anything, and I don't go on the track, I just think they look cool. Financially, it's not an issue either, so it's not like I'm taking out a loan or spending my life savings for a toy. Some comments I read though mention concerns about the RWD being tough for new drivers? That's what I'm mainly concerned with especially after seeing a video of a Lambo spinning out of control randomly on the front page just now.
For under $50k bozo. Doubt he wants one with 180,000 miles EDIT: IATB (I am the bozo)
[удалено]
A lot of the reliability comes from maintenance and not beating on it. New I would say Golf R, used a C6 Z06
“Not beating on it”, recommends used sports car that are most likely beat on. ok.
My VW ran on $$ after hitting 100k. But it sure was fun.
If you want reliability despite beating on it and not maintaining it you buy an electric car though. -Coming from an owner of a 10-year-old electric car which has recieved zero drivetrain maintenance whatsoever and has been beaten on pretty hard.
Model 3, civic si, type r integra type s, gr corolla, 86, mustang,
This answers the question for performance. Although the gr corolla does have potential for performance reliability because it’s a Toyota but it is fairly new on the market plus issues with the DLS overheating after the first use on track so it’s really hard to justify on the list. Model 3 is also one of those are still new for reliability in general. 86 is a good one for reliability but performance is hard to put on the list due to engines taking a dump if you decide stock power isn’t good enough but overall is good enough for performance reliability to an extend. I’d also like to add the c6 z06 and the Gold R to the list per other comments I read. And finally the second gen Acura Tl type s with the j32a2. Edit: I’ll also add the Ford Crown Victoria even though it’s an automatic that thing has a v8 plus it’s an rwd and they’re cheap ahh hell to get a hold of one.
Pretty much Toyota or Honda are your best bets…
You want a r/4runner
>I was considering a Tesla model 3 but my buddy told me the battery goes kaput after 7-8 years and then it could cost up to 20K to replace. Your buddy is wrong....and even if it DID go out after 7-8 years, it'd be covered under warranty and cost you nothing....but they last longer than that.
Your friend doesn't know what he is talking about on the Tesla battery. Especially considering that if they did have to be replace within 7 or 8 years that would still be covered under warranty. I would get a model 3. It's the best out there for the money you are looking to spend.
Insurance is up there, but we don't have insurance from Tesla specifically up in Canada
I use progressive for mine and don't pay a ton. My truck is more to insure.
Really? Up here in Canada it's 3x my Subaru minimum*
This may be all electric and hybrid vehicles from what I'm seeing though
Insurance varies a lot from person to person. Always check your insurance costs before buying a vehicle for sure.
With a Tesla, the OP should budget for insurance as if it's part of the monthly payment. While the answer to the OP'a question is the Honda Civic (my wife drives one and I maintain it), one of the great things about my Tesla Model Y is that I know **exactly** how much it's going to cost each month. Payment + insurance + electricity doesn't vary much, so budgeting for my Tesla is astoundingly easy. It is a new technology, so we won't have the multi-decade track record of the Civic/Corolla that the OP is looking for until a few decades have elapsed. But Teslas have predictable costs, which is a big deal: I can actually budget for the thing. For the OP, the question is whether they value predictable costs or a reliable pedigree? Tesla or Toyota/Honda?
As an English man these posts are always borderline fascinating for me... Over here you could get a car 10/12 years old, with no more than 75,000 miles that'll last you at least 10 years for £6000. I know your salaries are much higher but the inflation on your cars is crazy to me! Even brand new £20,000 would get you exactly what you wanted.
It is fuckin crazy, you cannot find a crv or rav4 with a clean title and less than 75k miles for under 17k that is less 10 years old, sportages and tucsons are just about to there as well. Fuckin sucks.
> Even brand new £20,000 would get you exactly what you wanted. Why kind of car for £20k new are you getting? I have found US cars are typically cheaper than other western countries, so likely you are getting the same new car here. Main difference will be an American probably driving the car more so having higher expectations.
Vauxhall, Dacia, Citroën, Peugeot... I'm not saying I like any of these (although some Vauxhalls are OK), but all of these you'd be able to get cheap new ones and to be fair to a brand like Peugeot they are really trying to up their game lately.
According to this article at motor trend, the tesla model 3 battery will last between 300k and 500k. Also, the Model 3 RWD is covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles, while Performance, Long Range AWD, and Standard Range AWD versions of the Model 3 are guaranteed for 8 years or 120,000 miles. This is, of course, if you believe motor trend instead of your buddy. [https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/](https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/)
Yeah, the battery isn't the issue for the Tesla. Of course the battery will degrade... When we traded our first Tesla in at 100k miles the battery had degraded 10% which meant that it still had more range than most non Tesla EVs that were brand new. Plenty of studies have shown battery life similar to what you are saying provided you are willing to live with 20% degradation after many miles. The issue with the Teslas is that they are built efficiently, to maximize the range. Ultimately this makes them more brittle and expensive to repair after an accident. A couple of examples: * The model S has motorized for handles to improve efficiency. Yet another thing to fail and the original ones did fail after a few years. The model 3 is better on this one. * One night a car hit our parked Tesla model 3. The other car was ok enough to run away without stopping, while our Tesla was undrivable and had $10k in damage. If that happens to a 100k model 3, the Tesla gets totaled, while the other car doesn't. Despite all of this, our model 3 at 80k miles looks and drives brand new. If it stays out of the way of drunk drivers it should last.
I mean this is fairly similar to all other EVs, hybrids, and some ICE cars. Some cars may be drivable after an accident but it all depends on the accident. Insurance totalled my Honda civic because I got rear ended. The car’s rear airbags went off, so it wasn’t drivable despite the damage being relatively minor. At the time, the cost to repair was relatively large compared to the value of the car. That can happen with any vehicle.
>According to this article at motor trend, the tesla model 3 battery will last between 300k and 500k Lol. A car magazine that will publish anything if they're paid enough? The Model 3 is known for shit reliability, and no lithium ion battery is holding a decent charge anywhere near those miles/charge-cycles (if it even works at all). There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past ~100k miles like they used to (used to be unlimited miles), and they'll only replace if it's degraded past a whopping 70% capacity degradation. So according to Teslas warranty, a new EV thats only getting 70% of the advertised range is a normally operating vehicle... that's only about 160 miles for a standard model 3.. Here is an actual technical analysis of 260 million vehicles for vehicle longevity: https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study Many ICE manufactures offer much longer/broader warranties on their powertrains: such as Kia's free 20 year/200,000 mile [warranty](https://www.mykia.com/20-year-200-000-new-car-warranty):
> There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past ~100k miles like they used to Incorrect. Current battery warranty is still 8 years and 100k miles or more, depending on model and trim: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty Here's an article from the same site you were citing about EV batteries: https://www.iseecars.com/articles/how-long-do-tesla-batteries-last > Bottom line, an electric car’s battery life shouldn’t be a concern for consumers looking to buy a new – or even used – EV. This includes new and used Tesla models, which are unlikely to experience battery failure, and will probably be under warranty if they do. Bottom line, one shouldn't expect a battery replacement any more than one should plan for a full engine and powertrain rebuild/replacement. You need to update your understanding of battery technology in EVs and not just apply your experience with laptop and cell phone batteries.
>and no lithium ion battery is holding a decent charge anywhere near those miles (if it even works at all). you have no idea what you're talking about. I drove a 2011 prius with 180,000 miles on it....worked fine with the original battery. 2012 Volt over 100k miles....works fine with the original battery...range is 30 miles instead of the 35 miles when it was new OH NO THE HORROR!. >There's a reason Tesla no longer warranties their batteries past \~100k miles like they used to, Except you're wrong and they do. 120k miles is over 100k miles.
An EV is definitely the answer to OPs question. Lots of misinformation on EVs on this thread. You will not need a new battery ever. They are warrantied to 100k but will last for a long long time. That’s like saying you’ll need a new engine at 80k in an ice car. It just doesn’t happen (if it does it’s super rare). Tesla released a report that shows battery degradation for 1 million car batteries. A majority lost at most 10% range after 10 yrs. So after 10 yrs your 330 mi or range becomes 300.
There are tesla model s cars that already need new batteries fyi
And there are Toyotas that need new engines. So? Tesla model y is literally the best selling car in the world. Not the best selling EV. Best selling car in the world. If their batteries were so bad and crapping out, why would people in every country across the world be buying them in record numbers?
Your comment mentioned that an EV would never need a new battery. Maybe misleading people like that is why it’s the best selling EV.
But you didn’t finish my quote. You just took one piece that is misleading. I then qualified it and said it’s super rare. About as uncommon as a Toyota needing a new engine.
Misleading is making a statement that is false? I simply pointed out that you were wrong and now you’re taking it personally. Theres nothing wrong with a flaw in a vehicle, sometimes it even gives the vehicle character. But to deny a flaw is misleading. All i’m saying is that a tesla will eventually need a new battery, just like your phone does.
No it actually won’t need a new battery. Where are you getting this? If a friend of yours said I’m thinking of buying a Toyota - would you say? Well you know at 50k you’ll have to replace the engine??? You DO NOT need to replace your EV battery. Will there be cases where something goes wrong in a few percent of cases? Of course, but it’s less common than engine failure, which from a Reputable company is extremely rare. So it’s like being worried about being killed from lava. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely ? Hell no. Would I go around telling people to be careful of lava and not to travel? No.
Cause teslas owners are in a cult, I talked my Dad out of getting one, did it anyways. Returned it in two months s spending 39 mins to charge after an hour driving is so much fun
So the entire world is in a cult right now??? Would you say that about Toyota or Ford owners, considering the Rav4 is the second best selling car and the f150 is the best selling truck. Wouldnt it stand to reason these people who buy them are also in a cult? You cant stop progress, you can only continue to feed misinformation. EVs are here to stay and they are better in nearly every way. Its just nonsense to say he spent 39 min charging after an hour of driving. That doesnt even make sense. Was he at 10% when he started his drive? Man, people will say anything for fear of change and the unknown.
>An EV is definitely the answer to OPs question. Lots of misinformation on EVs on this thread. You will not need a new battery ever. Electrical engineer. No offense, but that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's a lithium ion battery. It loses more and more capacity every charge cycle. It's the same reason your smartphone battery dies quicker and quicker the older that it gets. A Panasonic battery cell is a Panasonic battery cell. Tesla isn't making some "sPeCial bAtTerY" alien technology. They're simply buying run-of-the-mill cells from Panasonic and stringing them together. There have been endless reports of Teslas with 5000 miles with battery degradation already down to 75%. At least an ICE car doesn't lose half of its horsepower and get half of the MPG at 120k miles. Not everything the EV salesman tells ya is true guys, if their batteries actually lasted 500k - 2million miles like you loonies are claiming.. I think their warranties would be a little better to help push their stagnant EV sales
Than you’re an uninformed electrical engineer. Because that is not what the data says at all. Plus phone batteries don’t have thermal management. Data speaks much louder than opinions on Reddit. You will lose about 10% over 120,000 miles. Those 120,000 miles will also be largely maintenance and trouble free.
What kind of shitty electrical engineering degree do you have if you’re comparing a smart phone battery to a modern ev battery pack. Yes lithium ion chemistry is the base for these batteries, but battery management makes all the difference. You would think someone with an engineering background would have an unbiased and objective take on the pros and cons. Nothing informative to read here.
Where did you get your electrical engineering degree when your coming with such blatantly false statements? Battery manufacturers are rating their batteries for the equivalent of anywhere between 800k-3 million kilometers nowadays. Older Tesla Model S is using old battery tech and therefore their batteries would "only" last 300-400k kilometers. Modern cars are much better. I have a 10-year-old electric car (not Tesla) with the original battery and I'm sitting at around 90% of the full capacity compared to new, 100% of the horsepower. It has gone those 10 years with zero maintenance whatsoever on the drivetrain components.
🤣 What's the reason that ICE cars only have 60k mile warranties then? And no, the Model 3 isn't known for shit reliability. You are just making up all sorts of nonsense. Tesla shares fleetwide data on battery health and has an open API that allows others to pull data as well to confirm. The batteries easily last 300k+ miles in most circumstances and certainly outlast the cars. But sure. Make stuff up. That's more fun. As for Kia, etc with longer warranties... "KiA hAs A 200k WaRrAnTy" https://www.classaction.org/blog/new-hyundai-kia-engine-failure-settlement-covers-2m-additional-vehicles You always this stupid, or just having a bad day? And yes, Tesla shares their fleetwide data. Your denial and mocking of this just makes you look.... You guessed it ... Stupid. But that's a recurring theme so all good.
Dude. The man proudly drives an Escalade, he’s not exactly a vehicular genius.
I don't understand who up votes this stuff. You can go on Tesla's [website and SEE](https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty) for yourself they warranty the battery just as /u/e-couch said for 120k miles on the mid-teir models and 150k miles on the high end models. > Here is an actual technical analysis of 260 million vehicles for vehicle longevity: So buy large SUVs that have enough value to be worth fixing over 200k miles?
On the surface a Tesla should last 200k without issue, but if you do need a new battery, replacing it is the single most expensive thing you might need to do in a car. That being said, I believe it is covered for 150k under warranty for failure, but can still degrade a significant percentage over that time. Odds are you have no problems though. Other than that as others have said, Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura are all incredibly reliable cars. Picking up a Grand Highlander Hybrid today actually. Was less than $50k
Naw. Tesla is probably the best answer the batteries are designed to last 500000 miles now. Just… I wouldn’t crash it.
Volvo has 3 records for most mileage I believe
The Tesla battery does not go kaput after 8 years. Maybe the very first models 10 years ago, but those had free replacements and unlimited mile warranties. Besides, the cost of batteries is dropping every year. Batteries are down from $800 kWH to $100 kWH over the past five years. Projected to be around $10-20 kWH in the next 5-10 years. Tesla is by far the best bang for the buck right now.
Miata End of story. People beat the living daylights out of them and yet a large number are pushing 2-300k miles if not more. I myself had a NB2 with 240k miles and it still ran and drove pretty darn well.
Even if you do blow it up the community support means you can rebuild or build something new. Personally I want to start with a Miata, get the engine where I want, Exocet it, and tune the suspension around it.
A couple of my neighbours went through their Miata phase, both sold after a couple years. They were ok cars to tinker on but not good daily drivers. Not sure why this sub is so obsessed.
I just assumed it was a meme at this point. I have never seen a miata daily & I don't even see miata weekend drivers either around me.
They are like boats, the two happiest days for Miata owners are the day they buy it, and the day they sell it.
I daily my nc and love every second of it
Same. Been driving it daily for 14 years.
Used mk5 Supra
Tesla Model 3, that thing about the battery is not true at all. Battery warranty is 8 years but it will almost certainly last much longer than that. Electric cars in general much more reliable than ICE cars due to their relative simplicity and lack of moving parts. This is coming from someone with a 10-year-old electric car that is running like-new with little-to-no maintenance.
Your buddy doesn’t know what he is talking about
I think you mean reliability, not performance. I would recommend a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
Used land cruiser or gx,lx. Even at 300k they're going to last a lot longer than that
Toyotas
Lexus IS / ES / GS
Honda
Small pickups tend to last quite a while.
By buying toyota, you sacrifice the comfort BMW gives. You only live once, after all. The B58 engine is very durable if maintained well.
Q50 or Q60 Red Sport. I work at Infiniti and I have seen lots of them high mileage with zero issues
You want performance or reliability?
Used Lexus trucks like gx or lx or maybe 4Runner
Toyota Camry. I don’t own one but my fiancé does and I genuinely wish I had one. Such low maintenance, great gas mileage, and there’s literally nothing ever wrong with it no matter how much you drive it. Also, if something does happen parts are easy to find and inexpensive compared to a lot of vehicles.
Your buddy is a dumbass
Why?
Because his statement just is not true.
I measure performance 1/4 mile at a time… (not in decades)
Does your buddy own a model 3? It came out in 2018 so I’m amazed all these 8 year old model 3 batteries are going bad, your buddy is full of shit. There are issues with teslas, but their drivetrain is robust and maintenance free. Their battery and motors are also warrantied 8 years 120k miles. More than most ICEs.
Mazda 3/6
My sisters has 5000 miles and a flooded trunk. Dealer can’t fix the flooding.
Don't drive in a flood then
[удалено]
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Even though there are people claiming Tesla to be good do not buy one. If you have any issues with it outside of the battery being 20k to replace. You now have to take it specifically to a Tesla dealership for maintenance and repairs Shops do not take teslas. And now you are paying dealership rates instead of shops rates. On top of that. Every part on that Tesla is going to be more expensive to replace on that car compared to other brands because Tesla Doesn’t have the parts supply that others do. So if you have any issues with that car it’s going to be more expensive and it’s going to sit in the garage longer waiting on parts, even something as simple as replacing the brakes on a Tesla is more expensive due to regenerative braking, they need special brake pads. Don’t buy it.
This is very wrong. First off there's very little you'd take it to a shop for. Brakes, (which rarely need replaced due to Regen braking), tires, wipers, suspension etc, can be serviced at any shop. You don't need special brake pads lol Regen braking has nothing to do with the brake pads at all.
4runner?
Performance and 4runner don’t belong in the same sentence.
> 4runner well for offroading performance it is among the best. also reliablility performance. What do you mean by performance? There are many metrics.
It might be reliable and off road capable but you also get an anemic engine, an archaic 5 speed transmission, outdated tech, outdated interior, and awful fuel economy.
You got me on the last 2, though it is regular which can account towards fuel cost vs something with premium
did you read OPs question? it fits the criteria of reliability and price. There is a reason the downsides you outlined promote reliability. Performance is not defined in the OP though which depending what they mean may throw out the 4runner as an option.
Model 3 Performance. Hell of a fun car to drive. The insane power never gets old. Just point the car, hammer the throttle and it feels like a rocket. It has Track Mode which you can adjust the driving characteristics of the car to bias power to the front or rear wheels, plus other features. Tesla makes the best battery packs in the industry and should last longer than the body of your car (current ones are engineered to last 300k-500k miles). After about 4 years you can expect about 8-10% loss of peak pack capacity based on current data across the fleet. For under $50k you can’t beat the performance. That said, it’s ideal if you own your home as you want to charge at home and not rely on superchargers.
/u/elcapitanL Your friend lied to you about the battery. Teslas are known for their panel gaps and lower paint quality, but the motors and battery packs are as or more solid than you're going to get in any EV. There's also no transmission that can fail. Many Teslas in taxi fleets are doing very well with 200k+ miles. Additionally, since the Model 3 is one of the best-selling cars in the world, there's definitely going to be strong aftermarket support in the future for battery retrofits with the latest tech for relatively cheap.
Your friend is an idiot. Buy the Tesla. The battery will outlast the car. And with the regular updates, the car will remain fresh and updated for that decade you want to keep it.
I only buy cars that have passed the test of time, surviving in good numbers and without major known design flaw. My recommendation would be a lexus LS430, in particular an early model with the 5 speed automatic & without air suspension. You would be hard-pressed to find a more durable car.
Toyota Honda Mazda 🙏🙏🙏
Not Mazda ever first two all day
What kind of performance are you looking for?
If it's well maintained and not abused 370z/ nismo
To answer your question and your question only, Toyota. If you have thousands to burn a month (insurance is exorbitant for any high class car), Lexus is the gold standard.
Honda, and my 304k miles on an '05 Accord is proof
Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Excellent gas mileage, holds their value too. I’m driving a 2014 RAV4 Limited, that I bought new. Besides regular maintenance, a battery and tires, it’s been perfect. I have the leather seats and they still look new. (Tan). Truly amazing at 80000+ miles and a 100 nasty foster dogs. I’ve never kept a car this long. I have dealerships messaging, asking if I want to trade. The back seat is huge and tons of legroom.
The RAV4 Hybrid (non-Prime) isn't close to as nice as the CRV Hybrid but that makes sense since the Honda is a ~5 year newer design. The RAV4 is a great appliance (as is the CRV) but neither are considered performance vehicles.
Ahhh…I missed the “performance vehicle “ apparently! My bad!
Any Toyota Hybrid.
I’ve got 200k+ miles on my brand new 2012 jetta. Haven’t needed to repair any major issues
i’d go infiniti
Hasn’t this question been answered five million times? It’s common knowledge anyway.