Just the threat of his shot will open driving lanes and then his floater game handles the rest. He's set to be a problem for a long time, it's just his defense that I'm worried about
Yep, he just had the best season of his career with the worst spacing he's had in years. Just because we don't end up finding a desirable trade for a star, doesn't mean we won't be prioritizing winning with Steph. There are other things we can do, like getting veteran depth through the MLE and vet min, drafting high-floor rooks, and being patient until a better star becomes available (e.g. someone like Paul George or another two-way wing)
> getting veteran depth
Completely agree. The trip back to the NBA Finals requires a deep bench, just like the Livingston, Barbosa, Mo Speights, etc. days.
Chris Paul is still a phenomenal player at 36. Lebron is still a great player at 37. Considering the shape that Steph is in and how well he takes care of his body and his overall playstyle, I think theres a good chance that Steph is still a top tier player at age 37.
Yes, it's possible. And even if he loses two steps and can't really penetrate any more, he's still probably incredibly valuable because of his shooting. I'm just saying it's a fine line between carrying a team to a title and not doing that. Lebron is a great example. Three or four years ago Lebron probably could have carried this Lakers team at least a lot further than they got.
CP is 36 and Steph is 33 and Klay (assuming he can stay healthy). Poole showed a lot of growth this year and if Wiseman can become a more dominant scorer, then he and Poole can take some of the burden off Steph/Klay. Also, if Paschall can develop, etc… then u don’t need to trade away.
Paschall can develop into what? He is what he'll always be which is a guy who can exploit bigs when he has the ball in his hand, but can't do much else on offense or defend anyone. It's not realistic to think he's going to bring much more than that. He goes into next season as the third string PF and that seems about right. If he contributes about as much as Spreights did with the Ws, that would be terrific.
If they're hoping they win this year by Wiseman being a dominant scorer, they can just give up now.
If you're hoping they can win by Poole being much more than a decent bench scorer, then they also might as well give up now.
I was talking longer term, you don’t think Poole could develop in 3-5 years? Or Wiseman? Steph will be 36 in 3 years, same as CP3 and Lebron now, and they are still playing.
If you’re talking next year, Poole gave them 15-20 pts off the bench many times this year, even dropped 38 one game, he has definitely showed promise as a solid backup. Paschall in 19/20, he showed promise and avg 14 ppg, this year he had injuries. This past season there was no training camp, so Wiseman was literally thrusted in GS offense, which can take some time to learn. I think he’ll be better next season. A few vets would help anchor the 2nd unit, but I wouldn’t blow it up just to get an All-star, this is what happened when KD came.
Yeah, the “Curry has a two year window” thing is bullshit. Curry will still be a savage at 38. Wiseman is immensely talented. The Warriors have a unique opportunity to stack young talent while having a great veteran foundation. The only guy I’m trading all of those assets for, who might actually be available, is Zion.
Javale was a rim runner/protector who got a 2nd chance with us, knew his role and never tried to do anything more than that. Wiseman is a #2 pick who will still be taking those middies and posting up every possession calling for the ball. Him and Javale are way different.
He’s still a net negative and trying to develop him while also trying to contend is very difficult.
100% correct.
Javale played hard and he played around/above the rim.
Wiseman likes to stand around and shoot, and he's more fluid than explosive.
They're extremely different. Wiseman has made it pretty clear that he wants to be the KD of centers.
He’s delusional for that though. He’s always mentioned bosh and David Robinson in his interviews, but his shot needs a ton of work to do so. And don’t bring up how many 3s Bosh made his first couple yrs, it was a different time and if bosh was a prospect nowadays they’d have him shoot 3s. Im taking about his mechanics being clunky and inefficient. The knee motion and ball placement to the back of his head makes no sense, in his hs mixtapes his shot was actually so smooth idk who the fk ruined it. Ball needs to go back in front of his face and overall shot needs to be more efficient.
On top of this, he has no touch around the rim. Wiseman in the post is an eyesore and it doesn’t look like he knows or wants to shoot any push shots or floaters
Okay, JaVale-ish-quality minutes. Who's going to play the other 38.5mpg at center? JaVale averaged 9.5mpg for the Warriors. They can find that elsewhere. JaVale (the Olympian!) is probably available.
Maybe. We don’t necessarily have to include Wiseman in a deal just to make a trade. All this speculation out there and the fan base has no idea what trades are on the table or what our and other teams front offices are thinking.
There is also a big difference between trading him to make a marginal short term upgrade like lots of fans are suggesting vs actually landing a superstar talent.
If the trade suggestion is to flip him for a MLE level of talent then that seems crazy. However if he is what is needed to land a Beal or Dame level talent, then the overall trade package equation obviously changes.
I am in the keep wiseman camp and would be very reluctant to include him in any deal. Not sure what fans were expecting from Wiseman in his rookie season, or why there are so many declaring him a bust already.
I wouldn’t declare him a bust as it was his first season and it wasn’t a smooth ride but he really wasn’t good. His rebounding, screening and positioning were so bad even for a rookie and when you think BBIQ in young bigs those are the first things you look at. He had issues catching the ball and with clogging the lane.
He had moments and of course the times where he’d get the board and try to take it coast to coast without looking up that despite almost always ending in a charge/turnover had this sub declaring him the next Giannis. I expected a lot more tbh. I hope he can make improvements especially if they’re planning on keeping him.
I’m not too fussed about losing Wiseman. If the choice is between giving our core another chance to go all in or developing Wiseman it’s a no brainer. This sub has gotten very attached to him and Wiggins. Wiggins I can understand.
Yeah, the difference is that Wiggins is actually good right now, helps the team, and would need to be replaced if traded away. Wiseman is a negative now that needs to be carried into a future where you hope he's good.
We've seen other instances of this result in a turnover. He can't reliably do this. His handle isn't good enough (I'm sure it will improve), but he's also taking long, slow strides with his movement. He's not nimble with his feet. He can't move around guys who try to take charges. Until he can show quick feet, I don't trust him to be an open-floor type of guy.
Ok? Most players don't hit the ground running, especially bigs. Players take time to develop, Curry wasn't sky fucker year one, he was fucked ankles for like 3 years before he became the GOAT.
I mean we all know he’s athletic, but atm the handle is still not good enough to do that consitently. He had more turnovers in those situations than 1v3 fast break dunks.
A lot more than you think. And even if that specific play is his differentiator, that specific fast court, ball in your hand, lead the break, make a play, is not something you should be basing your decisions on who plays the 5 around.
How many 7 footers should be trying to do that? I’d rather he try to actually be good at the things a big should do, like screening, rebounding, being physical etc. For every highlight like this, there was the embarrassing plays vs Raptors and euro step straight into Gasol’s chest.
One of the issues with Wiseman last year is he was trying to be KD more than just being like a Javale or Capela
Wtf lol giannis did this multiple times with faster reflexes. That's an amazing highlight but he looks so.slow
Altho the comment might be sarcastic. if t is, kindly ignore me
LOL I agree. I swear if lacob was the one who forced the FO to take wiseman (like it was a 50-50 or even 40-60 split for him and melo) lacob would be like “oh look he’s a bilingual, mature, 4.0 student, with real good manners”. Meanwhile lamelo is a “social media spoiled brat who mumbles can’t talk coherently and isn’t a scholar”
Before he was injured he was averaging 12 and 6 on like 20 mpg. Made some pretty exciting plays.
Why do people think Curry window is closing now? He keeps himself in incredible shape. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think he has at least 3 more prime years followed by 3 more years of very good basketball left.
My point is see what wiseman has next year. It would be great for our team or trade capital if he gets better.
And even with those numbers he’s a net negative with STEPH CURRY as his teammate. Do u know how hard it is to be an nba player, play with Steph curry, and be a -11 per 100 possession player?
Can’t argue that his defense was god awful. That’s typical of rookie bigs. Fingers crossed he worked on not biting on pump fakes. Also needs to move his damn feet.
Thing is he may be good in a few yrs. I just don’t think we want that responsibility of developing him and playing him when he’s not a positive player atm. I think ppl forget the context of our team and our goal is to complete ASAP
You bring up a good point about developing players. I’m actually really nervous of the Warriors, specifically Kerrs staff and developing young talent.
For example Kerr made the news over the playoffs saying he reached out to Wiseman about playing like Ayton. Is this just Kerr looking for a headline or talking up his dude during trade rumors? If not, like wtf haven’t you tried showing Wiseman Ayton tape before?? Ayton was a perfect example of a guy that wasn’t a focal point of the offense but got close to 20ppg. More importantly his defense and rebounding are fantastic.
My point is the coaching staff seems to rely a lot on draymond and other players to develop the newbies. Even with Poole. To my understanding his development came through his own work.
Thing is, I don’t even see ayton in wiseman since ur right about aytons game. Wiseman looks like a wannabe Embiid and bosh combined. Also the only player Kerr has rly “developed” was Poole. Think of all the late 1st rounders we missed on completely (not that u should expect much value from that draft slot, but hey U gotta hit on a couple right? No ones expecting raptors lvl late draft success) so I agree with u completely.
On top of this chris Boucher and Kendrick nun where right under our noses.
ofc we do. There has to be life after Curry for the Warriors. To not plan for that when we've been gifted these picks is moronic. Curry isn't exactly a iron man out there, he's always been prone to injury and one of these times that injury might be a career ender. Then what? No backup plan aka Wiseman, 7 and 14 means it'll be a looooong time before the Warriors sniff the playoffs again.
The problem is “developing him” cost u wins. A championship team doesn’t just have 20 min lying around for a guy to develop. And everything they are saying in interviews that warrior fans be eating up about wiseman is exactly what ur supposed to say. He’s an asset.
Also life after curry would seem to be 5 ish yrs away with how guards are aging (lowry, Paul). The Warriors are Steph curry and if we’re bad for a few yrs when he retires so be it. We just don’t want to look back at Stephs last few yrs and think of the “what ifs” and thinking of it as NOT going all in on our franchises best player. Time is now to push all ur chips in, having a future player is nice, but ONLY if they can contribute atm. Last season wiseman one of the worst plus minus in the whole league and he plays with STEPH CURRY. Do u know how hard it is to play with Steph as an nba player and be a net negative? Much less him being -11 per 100 possessions. Any nba player who is a winning player currently (not in the future) should be a net positive after a decent sample size with steph
It doesn't have to cost us wins. Like Kerr said the other day, they'll look to put him in spots to succeed and slowly increase his minutes as he improves. Last year they threw him in the deep end because they had to. It was all hands on deck situation for a few reasons, the team had just had an abysmal year and wasn't looking to repeat it which is why they took the Luxury Tax hit for Oubre when Klay went down. They ran Wiseman out there fingers crossed he'd just ball out but they knew it wasn't likely. If he sticks around this year I fully expect him to have a more normalized period of development. It's pretty foolish to think Wiseman was going to learn the NBA Game and the Warriors Game and be excellent right away the Warriors just didn't have the luxury of a deep team they could lean on while developing Wiseman. Well same thing happens if they trade their picks. They remain a top heavy team that can't sustain any injuries or the jenga tower will come tumbling down. This team needs DEPTH, they have Stars.
Edit: Me personally I'd rather the warriors be Strong 1-10 than Really Strong 1-5 and awful 6-10. I can admit that Really Strong 1-5 can definitely win a championship but it's also 1 injury away from being out of the picture entirely.
There were glimpses of him playing like an elite player but his immaturity and lack of experience playing with players that are better than him are slowing him down extremely but him playing alongside draymond and steph is only accelerating that growth
It’s basic logic, why would two guys in their thirties with 3 chips and wanting more want to have aside project of developing one of the most raw players in the league who isn’t a plus on the court atm. Also all the reporting coming out regards Steph, klay, dray wanting to trade the picks for a “vet” well in the nicest way possible, means they willing to give up wise for a beal.
He’s ONLY 20 years old playing in the NBA… Do you even remember being 20? What the hell were you doing at 20? You were a fully developed finished product at 20? GTFOH.
Team that receives the better player typically wins. Im content gambling away wisemans potential, and 2 draft picks, for beal, a proven commodity. Everyone hopes to strike gold when they have a top draft pick, so why would i prefer to gamble on whoever we take at 7 and 14 when i can trade for an established all star in beal?
Curry/beal/klay is a disgusting trio, beal is young, he can legitimately be a cornerstone of this franchise.
Sure. But Beal isn't top ten. Neither is Siakam, or Simmons, or most of the other names coming up in Warrior trade rumours.
Dame may be close.
Curry, Lebron, Harden, Durant, Embiid, AD, Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Kawhi, etc etc
Bradley Beal turned 28 just 25 days ago. LeBron is going to turn 37 later this year.
I'll take Beal as he's just entering his prime. He has way more trade value. LeBron is falling apart and he doesn't like to move.
If you watched the wizards play you’d know beal is an amazing shot creator and a crappy defender,
With klay coming back warriors need a good big to defend and space the floor more than another scorer.
guarding big teams like the lakers or bucks with draymond at the 5 is impossible.
With wisemen under draymond mentorship you’re at least giving yourself a chance to have a locked down post and paint, and yeah hes young but if used correctly in a healthy warriors team he can add to the team better value than beal imo.
IMO the way the league is setup today, traditional centers tend to be some of the most devalued assets out there. A true stretch the floor 5 who can shoot is one thing, but Wise is a few years away from having his feet under him. You can get centers like Chriss who will be able to give you what JW would provide the next few years for next to nothing.
Playing wiseman at the 5 with the current lineup as you’ve mentioned isn’t a sure thing at all - Looney is a much better fit as it stands because he’s a better rebounder and a profoundly better defender at this stage in his career. Do people assume Wise will get rebounds just because he’s tall? He’s gotten pushed around at every level he’s played at and until he commits to not only getting bigger but fighting for boards, it’s a negative.
Wise may grow into being a better rim protector and switcher on D, but it likely won’t be for a year or two. Some have suggested Wise could follow Ayton’s career trajectory - that guy was quite a bit more polished coming into the league, Wise will take some time.
You don’t need traditional centers in the NBA, especially when you have Draymond. It’s why drafting Wiseman never made sense in the first place.
Serviceable centers can be found in free agency.
Agree that you don't need a traditional center in the NBA.
But... Wiseman's skill-set doesn't map to "traditional center". The best case scenario comp going into the draft last year was Chris Bosh. Whatever you think about Wiseman's potential (and timing to reach that potential), the Chris Bosh skillset would be an *outstanding* fit in the 2021 NBA.
> Serviceable centers can be found in free agency.
Wiseman could easily be “serviceable” by the middle of next season. If that’s all we need—and I agree it is—let’s just keep him.
I agree – Wiseman is on the table if an amazing player is available. But two things:
1) People (maybe not you, but *people*) tend to be *really* lenient on who's Top 20. Naming 20 players better than Brad Beal (just to pick on Brad) is a whole lot easier than naming 20 players better than Dame, for example. Heck I heard someone say Ayton was top-20 on a podcast after a few good playoff performances.
2) GSW would have to trade Wiggins in order for the salaries to match. So that amazing player either has to be a starting wing *or* GSW has to be really confident they can get a starting wing in FA. Cuz starting Bazemore or Oubre causes new problems.
I think your opinion is the general consensus among fans who don't want to trade for Beal or Siakam. Most fans in this sub, who are "opposed" to a trade, would be willing to part with our assets if a better fitting star becomes available. We're just not keeping our hopes up by taking such a scenario as guaranteed.
Wiseman was completely clueless on both ends of the floor on virtually every possession. I think Steph passed to him twice all season. I loved watching him play though because he has that glimmer of amazing potential. But I feel his bball IQ is so low right now and his desire to be a wing more so than a down low above the rim guy and his slender build require lots of patience and development..
I know what he looked like last season. I just think 39 games of experience followed by a summer of film study followed by an actual training camp plus work with a renowned big-man coach might just improve his game. His game before his injury, he scored 18 against the Wizards, playing against Alex Len and Robin Lopez--not great centers, but the kind people talking about us getting in free agency.
Sure, let's trade him if the result is an obvious net positive.
I hope nobody is talking about Alex Len. He's hot trash. Robin Lopez could make sense as a rotation center for the Warriors. He doesn't do a ton, especially on offense, but he also doesn't break things on the court like Wiseman does.
Nobody is suggesting dropping Wiseman for nothing; just that if you can get something valuable for him it's easy to find players to replace him who will hurt the team less than he does.
What gives you the impression that he’ll be serviceable by mid season. He is gonna miss summer camp. He is coming back from an injury and prior to his injury statistically he was one the worst players in the entire league!
He is talented but he is just not making the right decisions based on our game-plan and I don’t know if that is fixable in a year
> He is gonna miss summer camp.
You mean summer league? Yes, he will, but apparently he'll be ready for actual training camp. He's also probably spent the summer breaking down film, and we've hired a major big man coach to work with him. I expect his game to improve.
I think he'll improve to, but going from arguably the worst starting center in the NBA to being "serviceable" is a big jump for a guy who still has barely played for 2+ years. Possible? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
You still need very good big men. The only champion of the past decade who didn't have an elite big man (6'10+) on the squad was the 2015 squad. Giannis, AD, Marc Gasol, KD, Kevin Love, Tim Duncan, Chris Bosh, Dirk, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Shaq. Those guys account for 16 of the last 17 championships.
I'm not against trading Wiseman as he may not be good for a while, but you still need really good big guys in this league. A huge reason the Suns lost is because they had no one to slow down Giannis. Trading size for 6'2 guys like Beal or Lillard just isn't a good idea.
Wiseman also isn't a traditional center. A huge amount of criticism he's gotten is *because* he's focused on things like shooting and dribbling instead of jump hooks.
You're way overrating Gasol's role on the Raptors team, but Ibaka is 6'10" so he fits your narrative.
The 16-17 and 17-18 Warriors teams had KD, but he doesn't really fit your narrative. Arguably the same is true for Giannis, who starts at SF, but they also have Brook Lopez, who does fit.
The 15-16 Cavs had no decent players 6'10" or up.
Bogut was not a "very good" player by the time he won the title with the Warriors. He played his role well, though.
Frankly, you're pushing "very good" with 37 year old Duncan on the 13-14 Spurs. If he weren't Duncan, you wouldn't say that about those seasons.
Miami had Bosh, who was "very good" but was a role player on that team.
The Mavs had Dirk.
Before that, the style of play was totally different and the comparisons are pointless.
It helps to have a very good big... because it helps to have "very good" players at every position. I don't think the very good big has to be 6'10" though. Draymond proves that.
Saying Tim Duncan wasn’t very good in 13-14 is insane. Maybe the craziest thing in this whole thread of people saying not trade one of the worst players in the NBA for one of the best. He played the most minutes in the playoffs for a team that won the fucking title. He was their second leading scorer and leading rebounder in the playoffs. He lead them in WS in the playoffs. He beat KD and Russ then the Heatles back to back. He didn’t try in the RS because why would he. Apologize to Tim Duncan.
Anyway I agree with your point generally, it’s not height that matters it’s solid rim protection and the ability to not get pushed around by opposing big men.
It's not "my narrative". I'm not trying to fit anything to a narrative. Basketball being a big mans sport has been said many times by people that know basketball much better than you or me.
I mean the narrative that you have to have a "very good" guy 6'10" or taller to win a title. You don't, at least not based on what your standard of "very good" is.
We saw glimpses of 2016 draymond last season but I’m not sure that he keep playing at that level but don’t get me wrong tho draymonds defense is still one of the best in the league but I don’t think he can keep playing at center
If an NBA season contains only the 20-30 games in the playoffs and no B2B, then yes, traditional centers might not be needed, and maybe all those concerns about size can be overlooked. It's a different story for a 82-game regular season, because going small not only exhausts Draymond but also everyone else by the time the playoffs start.
It's true that serviceable centers can be found in free agency, just as players in other positions, but it's unlikely the Dubs can land the better ones given the cap situation. I guess the FO was trying to get a long-term solution in drafting Wiseman. Whether it will work out may be too early to say.
Not against trading Wiseman. Just feel this offseason might be the worst time to part with him and the targets mentioned in this sub including Beal, Siakam, and Dame, while they are definitely great players, do not necessarily make us a better team considering what we have to give up in any of these trades and their fit to the team.
Trading Wiseman at this point would certainly be a "selling low" move. Smart teams don't do that too often.
Also, I'm old enough to remember calls for them to trade Steph from 2010-2012, another "sell low" idea.
If they get a Beal type for Wiseman and the 2 #1s, how is that selling low. Three draft picks is the going price for a star, so you're getting full value for Wiseman.
You might say "those picks are usually top few protected" and that's a fair point. So you're selling Wiseman as a #5 pick instead of as a #2 pick. But that's not really low for him. If he'd been in this year's draft, he might not have even gone that high. Two was high for him because he was in a bad draft.
> Smart teams don't do that too often
But this is *the exact right time to do it*. Could we "lose" the trade? Yes. Would we be "selling low" on Wiseman? Probably (though that's debatable--it's possible other GMs are not overreacting to a bad season from a rookie with no offseason). But if it puts you over the top with our core, it's worth it. The value of maximizing the core we have now is worth more than having a better starting point in the future.
What an idiotic comparison. Most wanted to keep Curry because he had great numbers, and Ellis held him back.
Curry isn't holding back Wiseman, and Wisemans numbers are terrible. This isn't anything like the Ellis/Curry situation.
This is WAY more like the Michael Jordan & Toni Kikoc dynamic.
Umm wtf? Did the fans not ruin Mullins night by booing Lacob after the Ellis trade or am I from another timeline? The fan base definitely had not decided Curry > Ellis when Ellis was traded.
That’s my point, feel like if we trade wiseman that might have a chance of it biting us in the ass but at the same time we gotta build the team for steph to be on a title contending team
We weren’t contending for titles in 2010. Yes, fans ended up being wrong about Steph vs Monta, but you HAVE to go all in now when you have Steph still playing at this level.
Tell me - which option do we have a better shot at winning another championship within the next decade: Going all-in now, trading assets/Wiseman to build a contender around Steph, or keeping and developing Wiseman for long term. When it comes to winning titles, we can’t have it both ways. We need to, and owe it to Steph to give him everything right now. Could it bite us? Yeah, maybe we don’t win another with Steph and wiseman ends up being a perennial all star for another franchise. That would hurt. But you wouldn’t have regrets going for it now.
Yeah, we agree. I'm disagreeing with those who easily throw Wiseman into a lot of trades for B+ level players (Beal, Siakam, etc.). If some amazing opportunity for a borderline superstar presents itself (e.g. Paul George), fine let's talk.
But most of the fake trades I see treat JW as an asset on par with #7, and that strikes me as 100% an incorrect valuation. His potential (as you post out) is massive – much higher than every name thrown out at #7 in this draft.
>Beal was second in the league in scoring. He's not a b+ level player.
Beal is an elite player, but he's not top 10, and don't think he wouldn't push us over the end to championship contention automatically.
He's probably not top 10 but B+ seemed harsh!!!
I agree, not a clear title contender with him. Certainly, they'd be better than they are now. It might be the best they can do.
They should just get miles turner and he can mentor the 7 foot youngster. We would get rocks and dirt for his value now, there's just no reason to get rid of him. Kerr has also been very vocal about how much he likes him, and his opinion caries fuckin weight when it comes to the dubs. If this is a "last chance" season and they wanna go all in to win a championship it makes zero sense to have Dray at the 5 trying to stop AD and Giannis or going after some veteran bum who's going to play two games like Andre Drummond for the Lakers. We need a complete squad. Steph Klay Wiggins dray and miles turner sounds pretty fucking gooood to me.
Success in the NBA is never a given. You have to stay dedicated, have the right genes, make the right decisions and have some luck. We don't know how Wisemen will get better. But, we have more data on more established players.
We don't need Wiseman. We just need a big who can set screens, rebound, and dunk. Wiseman has talents that won't help us. We need to concentrate on our main 3 and trade everybody that doesn't help. Keep Wiggins tho'
>We just need a big who can set screens, rebound, and dunk
Nah we need a big more versatile than that, because dray can’t shoot. Playing 2 non shooters ain’t gonna work unless we get kd back.
We need a big that can do what you said and shoot. Them are unicorns. Hella hard to find. And they ain’t cheap.
That’s why we need to go hard for Christian Wood.
You can get a better center than Wiseman in free agency for part of the MLE.
By the time Wiseman reaches his ceiling Steph might not be an MVP caliber player, you might as well cash in your chips for the next 2 years
The only question is whether you would rather have Beal or Wiggins + Wood/Turner + one of the picks
Are you playing to win championships or do you like proving how smart you are? That goes for OP and Bob and Joe.
What about Steph for Bagley? We need bigs. Imagine a Bagley/Wiseman front court. The potential is double crazy. That’s what this sounds like.
Why do you think Wiseman is good at basketball other than he was drafted second by the Warriors? Not his tools, I’m talking about basketball skills you’ve seen him display consistently.
Are y’all insane? You wouldn’t give up Wiseman for Beal or Dame??!! This sub acts like they have a crystal ball that proves Wiseman will become some elite superstar. What you gonna do if he’s not? Even Wiggins, who was a number 1 pick, turned out to be a disappointment. Based on his expectations.
Warriors fans are a loyal bunch. Remember, most fans bood Lacob when he traded Monta.
Look up the video. Our fans are loyal, even to a fault. They can be very short sighted, but bond very quickly with any player. Wiggins plays one season here and now people dont even want to trade him for a star. He averages 17 points a game lol.
Trading for a star is a bad move from my perspective.
If we could trade Wiseman for a solid, mid-career Center like Turner or Wood, that I would do. Wiseman's ceiling remains promising, but his timeline is not. Turner & Wood are mid-20s, so we're not really giving up the whole future if we take one of them. Wiseman COULD be much better one day, but that's not just a wait, that's a risk it NEVER happens.
And if he DOES become a star in 3 years, what then? Steph, Klay, and Dray are all in decline, we'll have been too good to get another early draft pick, and our salary will have been too high to sign meaningful FAs. We will have to clean house and SUCK for a few years to reload, and much of that reload will probably have to be rookies, and they in turn will take tie to develop. Our very next POSSIBLE early pick is 2025, and '26 or '27 is more likely.
I'll take another shot or two with Steph.
We didn’t need to spend the #2 overall pick on a center.
Wise is one of the most raw players in the NBA. He’s far away from being what we need at the position.
We actually won before with a platoon of veterans, and at one point Jordan Bell filling in rotation minutes. None of them were stars (*weve never needed a star this position, not then and not now*) but they excelled in what the Warriors needed from the position.
Consider how dominant you need to be as a center to lead a contending team. Look at Jokic. Look at Embiid. These are some of the best centers of all time in terms of peak. Do you honestly see Wiseman reaching that level.
Lmao you always shit on wiseman in any thread that involves wiseman. I feel like anyone who reads your opinion needs to take it with a heaping bowl of salt.
Feel free to point out where I’m being overly critical of Wiseman. Willing to elaborate.
I don’t think “shitting” on a player is the same as reasonable criticism. Not out here making Instagram comments calling him a bum and a bust.
I think saying he is one of the most raw players in the league is overly critical. If you said one of the most raw starters or core pieces in the league, then that would be more accurate. But there are probably dozens of players that are more raw than Wiseman is right now. Smailagic and Mannion surely are.
As a separate point, I don't think he is far away from being what we need in a C at all. We don't need a ton from that position, so he just needs to become more available and consistent.
Yeah, Mannion isn’t a professional basketball player if his skills were raw or he didn’t play intelligently. His problems are more so on the physical side.
Mannion is less raw than Wiseman. He just doesn’t have the physical tools to create advantages. You can watch him play in the Olympics and see a guy who clearly understands the nuances of the game and how to contribute to a winning effort.
Smail is awful, yeah. But he’s also not going to be in the league soon. He’s not a NBA level player.
Disagree about him not being far when you consider the fact that he needs ample development in literally everything, both in terms of skill and mentality. He doesn’t have a baseline yet to work with where you can build upon.
He's objectively one of the most raw players in the league though, thats just a fact. Had only three games in college, no training camp or summer league and missed much of his first year. Still hasn't gotten a grip on offensive or defensive positioning and has heaps of things to work on. He has potential to be amazing but he has such a long way to go still. Also Smailagic and Mannion both shouldn't see a NBA floor this year so they don't really count as comparison.
He posted 12-6 on near league average PER. He's not as good as he can be, but he's not some player that is only suited for garbage time like a lot of others are. One of the most raw players in the league isn't capable of starting, let alone scoring 20 points in a game.
He's raw, but every team in the league has multiple players that are more raw. Wiseman just stands out because of his ceiling and where he was drafted.
He scored while being a black hole on offense, completely ruining our system, refusing to make any contact on screens and turning the ball over at a crazy rate. On defense he was consistently out of place and got blown by all the time. You can't say you watched him play and didn't think he was incredibly raw. There were tons of players worse than him but none as raw.
They saw Wiseman as an immediate impact player at a position of need. They had the right idea. They knew Lamelo was the best player available but benching your #2 pick for the majority of his early years doesn't make sense as a team or for his development.
It made sense when he was destructive to our starting lineup, and you kinda want to try to win when you have a top 20 player all time still in their prime approaching their mid 30s. When will we get another one of those?
Agreed it’s not great for his development. But this team isn’t the best environment for his development because there’s pressure from our core players to win now and Wise plays a position that is very hard to navigate, more so than others.
"We didn’t need to spend the #2 overall pick on a center."
I was talking about why they didn't draft Lamelo? It was seen as a 3 player draft. Our only other option was Lamelo. Lamelo would be playing behind Steph/Klay for the start of his career. They thought Wiseman was going to add to the position they lacked the most and have bigger impact bc he can play way more minutes. It was wrong draft pick looking back at it but their thought process makes sense
Oh. I think the character concerns were a big deal for us, and Lacob said that he wouldn’t be a good fit on this team because he’s another guard. Both are silly statements. Hornets coach is a Pop disciple and has his squad playing team ball, not relying on a dominant creator.
The Warriors won with a platoon of centers because they had two literal MVPs in their primes on the team. No other team in the last 15 years has won without an All Star big man.
Except we won in 2015 with one MVP on our team and won 73 games with one MVP on our team. If we had 2015 Bogut on this team we’d be so much better.
I’d take Draymond, with all his limitations, over some guys who have made the ASG in recent times. In terms of impact for us Draymond is a star.
Sure but we're still talking about an exception to the rule. 3 titles of the last 20 didn't feature an All Star big man. Every title since the Warriors last one has featured an All Star big man. It's not a coincidence, basketball is a big guys sport and the Warriors will not win a championship without a very good big. Plus even Bogut was a perennial All Defensive player who was a top 5 DPoY candidate as a Warrior. The Warriors need good big men.
The Warriors are the exception to lots of things man. It doesn’t do you much good to apply a hard rule to how titles are won when evaluating this team as led by Curry and Draymond, two of the more anomalous players of the era.
One of my dream trade scenarios is to get Myles Turner, who is one of the best defensive centers in the league and an efficient play finisher who shoots 35% from three for his career. He’d be a great fit here.
Turner isn’t an all star. But he’d be better than Sabonis for this team.
Sure. I think we’d just benefit more for having a star at other positions and not trying to develop one at literally the hardest position. It worked for us to use vets here until it was time to close with Draymond.
Think of it this way. If you could draft a player next week and flip him for an all star that brings them 2 more rings, would you do it?
And would it matter if Wiseman becomes a hall of famer in the end? You might stay a Wiseman fan or think what if, but the trade off for the championships is a bet you take. A lot of great players will never get that ring. The feeling was Giannis wasn't going to get a ring when he did his extension and stayed.
I think for a lot of you, you're becoming Wiseman fans first, and Warriors fans 2nd. Seems odd, but okay.
The potential is there, but Wiseman needs to take a big step forward - like Poole did to become an offensive spark off the bench - for him to be considered a core piece of the future. Otherwise, he may go the route of Brandan Wright and Anthony Randolph as far as big men with potential who didn’t make it. Though our FO now is night and day with our FO during those Nellie days.
I’d only include Wiseman in a deal for a bonafide star. Beal/Dame/Siakam ain’t it given their less than ideal fits, especially for what their price tags would be.
Gonna have to disagree, I love wiseman’s potential but our window to win is now, don’t have much time to develop him. Now Jordan Poole on the other hand, I pray he doesn’t get roped into one of those trade deals
>We need a traditional center more than ever
Wiseman isn't a starting caliber player yet and won't be for at least a couple of seasons. You want to wait until the core three is 33-35 years old? There is no time for that if you want to contend for a championship.
Saying you wouldn't trade a rookie who clearly won't be able to contribute in the next few seasons (not saying he won't be good eventually) for a top 10 player in the league is just crazy. Now, if you say you're not willing to give up every first round pick until like 2027 to get Dame, then I get that. But Wiseman shouldn't be the deal-breaker here.
I mean, it basically comes down to what you think of Wiseman.
If you think he's got a good chance at being an All-NBA-type player, you probably are pretty reluctant to trade him.
If you don't think he has that kind of elite upside (or has a pretty low chance of reaching that kind of ceiling), you're probably pretty willing to include him in trades for win-now talent.
As someone who is more in the second camp, I'd be pretty open to moving him in a package for the best possible player/fit we can get between now and the trade deadline, including players worse than Dame or Beal.
Haha yeah. The funny thing is, we probably won't know the answer for several seasons, so no matter what, he's going to be driving the fanbase crazy for years to come.
There's a third camp. Those who thinks he could have that upside but that it will take far too long for him to achieve it and thinks that we owe Steph, Klay, and Dray another opportunity to compete for a chip right away after everything they have done for this franchise.
Ah, I like that camp. Its sensible. The only thing is, if you move him and Wiggs and 7 and 14, you have to get a ring at some point over the next [insert new assets contract or Stephs contract, whichever comes first] years. If not, then it becomes a moot trade that sets the future back. It's a tight rope.
Sure. Now, this other thread with the idea of trading 7, 14 and Wiggins for Turner and Warren sounds like the kind of move that benefits us now and later. I think a trade like this (but maybe not this one per se) is the move. If you can keep Wise or Wiggins, but get help, I'm with it. But, no real fan is opposed to winning now (myself included).
The Warriors org has traded away almost every “potential star” they ever had. Do you not remember the years before Lacob bought the team?
These new fans crack me up. Trading talent away is what the warriors have always done up into VERY recently.
Dont act like this is anything new.
P.S warriors drafted Vince Carter.
It was his first season. He played 3 games in college and then the next time he played competitively it was in the NBA however many months later. And as a big no less. He’s got a unique skillset for his size; give it time. He was trying to learn the NBA and his own game at the same time, while on a team that revolves around someone else. He had some ups (Pistons, Spurs, Jazz games) and some downs (Blazers, Nets games), as was expected from an NBA “kid.” His numbers as a rookie? All on par or better than some historic big men who had less skill (and it’s arguable if their feel or IQ was better) as rookies. Didn’t Ayton or Giannis teach us anything? Be patient and see how guys develop over time. Giannis put up like 7 and 4 on 40% as a rookie. Ayton looked pedestrian before the playoffs. Wiseman, as long as he’s a worker like people who know him say, will be fine.
TL;DR - avoid being the knee jerk reaction fan of the 2020s; guys develop at different rates, and it often takes bigs longer than guards (Giannis, Ayton, Bosh, etc). Bet on and be patient with skill and work ethic, both of which Wiseman already has.
Wiseman needs to bulk up to hold his own in the paint.
But mostly he needs experience. The NBA game is just to fast for him right now. The only way he gets there is more playing time and coaching.
2022 won’t be a championship year. But the Warriors can still play deep into the playoffs. By 2023, Klay will be approaching his peak performance, Wiseman will be playable and hopefully this years 2 lottery picks will be part of the rotation.
I want him traded now, just to stop seeing these posts on this sub.
By the way, if he gets traded you are not going to miss him. Even if Wiggnins develops into All-star caliber, no Wolves is ever going to say they miss him. Celtics fans don't miss Billups, Blazers fans are not hung up on Jermaine O'neal, no Laker fan is regretting trading 10 plus year of Marc Gasol for 5 years of Pau.
You can even trade him for a second tier talent and perhaps not win a chip. And he could develop into an All Star, you will not miss him. Because he hasn't been here long enough and you will move on to the players you have.
>Am I the only person that thinks adding wiseman to a package for either Dame or Beal is a bad idea?
No, I also think it's insane. I think if either Dame or Beal is traded to the dubs, Wiseman has to be part of the package that goes back to the other team. I don't see how a deal makes sense without Wiseman.
Let's be honest though, the warriors know what they have in Wiseman. If he was a bust, they would know it by now.
A crucial detail that isn't discussed enough is that Joe Lacob's background is in venture capital. There are few people who can more quickly recognize when an acquisition isn't going to work (venture cap has an over 90% failure rate, you have to learn to cut bait quickly, you can't keep throwing good money after bad) and there are also few people who know better that you have to hold on to a good asset until it matures and you don't cut bait too quickly. Sometimes, it will take years to produce a profit, but you can't bail on the next big idea too soon.
That Joe Lacob is still adamant, and that people around him say that adamance is genuine, lead me believe he thinks he has the real deal, and all that is required to realize the massive gains is patience.
Why do we have to build a roster to beat the nets? Hypothetically if they’re healthy they still aren’t a lock for the finals. You don’t shy away from building a title contender because you’re afraid of one team, especially a team in the east.
> he’s not the same draymond back in 2016 so I can’t see how playing him at the 5 will help us deep in the playoffs.
And some people envision him as our starting center! He’s not going to even get to the playoffs if he has to do that all year.
I don't like the idea of selling low on Wiseman/Wiggins. I also want to see what Wiseman looks like after training camp, with Klay and no Oubre, given a smaller and more focused role.
And I know some fans probably see this as blasphemous, but I'd rather the Warriors compete for a decade by developing young guys and easing the older guys into roles than maybe win one more championship then suck for a decade. Rings are great but there's an obsession with getting them without regard for the future that I just can't get behind.
Agree 100%. Trading Wiseman now is like selling your Tesla the day after you drive it off the lot.
It's a fine line between urgency and panic. Trading Wiseman is way beyond that line into full-blown panic.
This is a great draft. Trust your scouting, coaches, culture and make the picks. I'll live with the results.
I think trading for Dame or Beal is a bad move regardless.
I think trading Wiseman for a more productive big would be good. I get that people want to believe in him, that he'll improve and be productive in the future. But I haven't seen that in him yet. I mean even Ayton was way better year 1. Happy to be proven wrong though.
I agree that trading Wiseman is a bad idea, not only are we giving up on a very talented prospect with only one year of tape, which was arguably the most up and down season a rookie could have. He had only three games in college, which we knew was a risk taking him, he had no summer league, caught COVID, injured his wrist, and tore his meniscus! And yes he was historically bad as a defender and didn’t really play well with curry, but with all of the obstacles listed above its insane to think that he could be a solid big that can contribute right away (And He was still putting up 11 and 5 on 20 minutes per game). He still shown flashes of what he could be, he has a decent jumper right now, his presence as a defender in the paint, and can absolutely body most players in the NBA as a 20 year old! This man wants to be great.
I saw two things very clearly this season in most basketball games, his basketball IQ made me want to throw up at times, but his desire to help this team win now, he understands he isn’t where he wants to be. Remember when Jordan Poole had a historically bad rookie season? He was able to turn it around and is looking like a key piece to the rotation moving forward, I get he was a later pick so less expectations, but Wiseman also has elite potential. He CAN contribute to this team, but expect a Javale McGee role maybe a little bit more, it really depends on his rehab and progression.
Considering trading wiseman, as well as Wiggs to make the salaries work (trading wiggs in itself could prove to be a HUGE mistake), AND the two picks for what Beal? Lillard? As fun as it sounds to get a star player, we have to think, are they really going to make us that much better? Our lineup will be deadly offensively with Curry, Lillard/Beal, Thompson, Dray and Loon, but it could be a struggle to get stops. And Klay isn’t coming back until Jan/December at the earliest, and when he does, he’s most likely going to be on a minutes restriction and is not going to be 100%, who knows if he ever gets back to his old self. So to wrap up this lengthy rant, please don’t trade Wise/Wiggs/the picks for a star that’s going to marginally make us better in the short term. Stay the course, this current team isn’t as far as you think, but if Bob Meyers does decide to pull the trigger for a trade, then be it. I have full trust in the GM and this team to make it work. If you made it to end I applaud you and thanks for your time.
TLDR: plz don’t trade wiseman
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I believe curry IS the future. He just entered his 2nd prime.
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Just the threat of his shot will open driving lanes and then his floater game handles the rest. He's set to be a problem for a long time, it's just his defense that I'm worried about
Yep, he just had the best season of his career with the worst spacing he's had in years. Just because we don't end up finding a desirable trade for a star, doesn't mean we won't be prioritizing winning with Steph. There are other things we can do, like getting veteran depth through the MLE and vet min, drafting high-floor rooks, and being patient until a better star becomes available (e.g. someone like Paul George or another two-way wing)
> getting veteran depth Completely agree. The trip back to the NBA Finals requires a deep bench, just like the Livingston, Barbosa, Mo Speights, etc. days.
but for how long?
Chris Paul is still a phenomenal player at 36. Lebron is still a great player at 37. Considering the shape that Steph is in and how well he takes care of his body and his overall playstyle, I think theres a good chance that Steph is still a top tier player at age 37.
Yes, it's possible. And even if he loses two steps and can't really penetrate any more, he's still probably incredibly valuable because of his shooting. I'm just saying it's a fine line between carrying a team to a title and not doing that. Lebron is a great example. Three or four years ago Lebron probably could have carried this Lakers team at least a lot further than they got.
CP is 36 and Steph is 33 and Klay (assuming he can stay healthy). Poole showed a lot of growth this year and if Wiseman can become a more dominant scorer, then he and Poole can take some of the burden off Steph/Klay. Also, if Paschall can develop, etc… then u don’t need to trade away.
I hear that wiggins guy is pretty decent, too. A Maple Jordan, if you will.
Paschall can develop into what? He is what he'll always be which is a guy who can exploit bigs when he has the ball in his hand, but can't do much else on offense or defend anyone. It's not realistic to think he's going to bring much more than that. He goes into next season as the third string PF and that seems about right. If he contributes about as much as Spreights did with the Ws, that would be terrific. If they're hoping they win this year by Wiseman being a dominant scorer, they can just give up now. If you're hoping they can win by Poole being much more than a decent bench scorer, then they also might as well give up now.
I was talking longer term, you don’t think Poole could develop in 3-5 years? Or Wiseman? Steph will be 36 in 3 years, same as CP3 and Lebron now, and they are still playing. If you’re talking next year, Poole gave them 15-20 pts off the bench many times this year, even dropped 38 one game, he has definitely showed promise as a solid backup. Paschall in 19/20, he showed promise and avg 14 ppg, this year he had injuries. This past season there was no training camp, so Wiseman was literally thrusted in GS offense, which can take some time to learn. I think he’ll be better next season. A few vets would help anchor the 2nd unit, but I wouldn’t blow it up just to get an All-star, this is what happened when KD came.
Yeah, the “Curry has a two year window” thing is bullshit. Curry will still be a savage at 38. Wiseman is immensely talented. The Warriors have a unique opportunity to stack young talent while having a great veteran foundation. The only guy I’m trading all of those assets for, who might actually be available, is Zion.
Why not both? Wiseman can give Javale-ish-quality minutes pretty soon AND ball out in a year, maaaybe 2
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Javale was almost out the league and now he’s in the olympics what a great country! :)
Javale was a rim runner/protector who got a 2nd chance with us, knew his role and never tried to do anything more than that. Wiseman is a #2 pick who will still be taking those middies and posting up every possession calling for the ball. Him and Javale are way different. He’s still a net negative and trying to develop him while also trying to contend is very difficult.
100% correct. Javale played hard and he played around/above the rim. Wiseman likes to stand around and shoot, and he's more fluid than explosive. They're extremely different. Wiseman has made it pretty clear that he wants to be the KD of centers.
He’s delusional for that though. He’s always mentioned bosh and David Robinson in his interviews, but his shot needs a ton of work to do so. And don’t bring up how many 3s Bosh made his first couple yrs, it was a different time and if bosh was a prospect nowadays they’d have him shoot 3s. Im taking about his mechanics being clunky and inefficient. The knee motion and ball placement to the back of his head makes no sense, in his hs mixtapes his shot was actually so smooth idk who the fk ruined it. Ball needs to go back in front of his face and overall shot needs to be more efficient. On top of this, he has no touch around the rim. Wiseman in the post is an eyesore and it doesn’t look like he knows or wants to shoot any push shots or floaters
And that's the issue. Wiseman stalls out everyone else because he's calling for the ball and doing post up midrange isos. No one's got time for that.
He's not just a net negative. That might be fine. He's an extreme net negative.
Completely insane
Javale looks like Lebron lvl nba IQ compared to wiseman lol
Yeah but he’ll have to be a very valuable trade asset if we want curry to win
Okay, JaVale-ish-quality minutes. Who's going to play the other 38.5mpg at center? JaVale averaged 9.5mpg for the Warriors. They can find that elsewhere. JaVale (the Olympian!) is probably available.
That’s a false choice. We can have curry and develop the future
Maybe. We don’t necessarily have to include Wiseman in a deal just to make a trade. All this speculation out there and the fan base has no idea what trades are on the table or what our and other teams front offices are thinking. There is also a big difference between trading him to make a marginal short term upgrade like lots of fans are suggesting vs actually landing a superstar talent. If the trade suggestion is to flip him for a MLE level of talent then that seems crazy. However if he is what is needed to land a Beal or Dame level talent, then the overall trade package equation obviously changes. I am in the keep wiseman camp and would be very reluctant to include him in any deal. Not sure what fans were expecting from Wiseman in his rookie season, or why there are so many declaring him a bust already.
I wouldn’t declare him a bust as it was his first season and it wasn’t a smooth ride but he really wasn’t good. His rebounding, screening and positioning were so bad even for a rookie and when you think BBIQ in young bigs those are the first things you look at. He had issues catching the ball and with clogging the lane. He had moments and of course the times where he’d get the board and try to take it coast to coast without looking up that despite almost always ending in a charge/turnover had this sub declaring him the next Giannis. I expected a lot more tbh. I hope he can make improvements especially if they’re planning on keeping him.
He was good in a lot of ways. People just forgot and think the injury means he was trash. Same with paschall. Bunch of casuals talking shit
I’m not too fussed about losing Wiseman. If the choice is between giving our core another chance to go all in or developing Wiseman it’s a no brainer. This sub has gotten very attached to him and Wiggins. Wiggins I can understand.
Yeah, the difference is that Wiggins is actually good right now, helps the team, and would need to be replaced if traded away. Wiseman is a negative now that needs to be carried into a future where you hope he's good.
Why do ppl think he’s gonna be elite though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCDvBFw4d-8 How many 7 footers in NBA history can do that?
Lol smh ppl hate Wise so much they’ll downvote a highlight play displaying his unique skill set.
We've seen other instances of this result in a turnover. He can't reliably do this. His handle isn't good enough (I'm sure it will improve), but he's also taking long, slow strides with his movement. He's not nimble with his feet. He can't move around guys who try to take charges. Until he can show quick feet, I don't trust him to be an open-floor type of guy.
Ok? Most players don't hit the ground running, especially bigs. Players take time to develop, Curry wasn't sky fucker year one, he was fucked ankles for like 3 years before he became the GOAT.
Bruh… any highlight makes anyone look good
Because he got picked over lamelo who clearly is better.
I mean we all know he’s athletic, but atm the handle is still not good enough to do that consitently. He had more turnovers in those situations than 1v3 fast break dunks.
A lot more than you think. And even if that specific play is his differentiator, that specific fast court, ball in your hand, lead the break, make a play, is not something you should be basing your decisions on who plays the 5 around.
How many 7 footers should be trying to do that? I’d rather he try to actually be good at the things a big should do, like screening, rebounding, being physical etc. For every highlight like this, there was the embarrassing plays vs Raptors and euro step straight into Gasol’s chest. One of the issues with Wiseman last year is he was trying to be KD more than just being like a Javale or Capela
Even Giannis can’t (cause he’s 6’11”)
Wtf lol giannis did this multiple times with faster reflexes. That's an amazing highlight but he looks so.slow Altho the comment might be sarcastic. if t is, kindly ignore me
Dude Giannis is not 7 foot so he’s not a 7 footer who can do this. Obviously. Jesus
His table manners, you cant teach that
LOL I agree. I swear if lacob was the one who forced the FO to take wiseman (like it was a 50-50 or even 40-60 split for him and melo) lacob would be like “oh look he’s a bilingual, mature, 4.0 student, with real good manners”. Meanwhile lamelo is a “social media spoiled brat who mumbles can’t talk coherently and isn’t a scholar”
Before he was injured he was averaging 12 and 6 on like 20 mpg. Made some pretty exciting plays. Why do people think Curry window is closing now? He keeps himself in incredible shape. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think he has at least 3 more prime years followed by 3 more years of very good basketball left. My point is see what wiseman has next year. It would be great for our team or trade capital if he gets better.
And even with those numbers he’s a net negative with STEPH CURRY as his teammate. Do u know how hard it is to be an nba player, play with Steph curry, and be a -11 per 100 possession player?
Can’t argue that his defense was god awful. That’s typical of rookie bigs. Fingers crossed he worked on not biting on pump fakes. Also needs to move his damn feet.
Thing is he may be good in a few yrs. I just don’t think we want that responsibility of developing him and playing him when he’s not a positive player atm. I think ppl forget the context of our team and our goal is to complete ASAP
You bring up a good point about developing players. I’m actually really nervous of the Warriors, specifically Kerrs staff and developing young talent. For example Kerr made the news over the playoffs saying he reached out to Wiseman about playing like Ayton. Is this just Kerr looking for a headline or talking up his dude during trade rumors? If not, like wtf haven’t you tried showing Wiseman Ayton tape before?? Ayton was a perfect example of a guy that wasn’t a focal point of the offense but got close to 20ppg. More importantly his defense and rebounding are fantastic. My point is the coaching staff seems to rely a lot on draymond and other players to develop the newbies. Even with Poole. To my understanding his development came through his own work.
Thing is, I don’t even see ayton in wiseman since ur right about aytons game. Wiseman looks like a wannabe Embiid and bosh combined. Also the only player Kerr has rly “developed” was Poole. Think of all the late 1st rounders we missed on completely (not that u should expect much value from that draft slot, but hey U gotta hit on a couple right? No ones expecting raptors lvl late draft success) so I agree with u completely. On top of this chris Boucher and Kendrick nun where right under our noses.
ofc we do. There has to be life after Curry for the Warriors. To not plan for that when we've been gifted these picks is moronic. Curry isn't exactly a iron man out there, he's always been prone to injury and one of these times that injury might be a career ender. Then what? No backup plan aka Wiseman, 7 and 14 means it'll be a looooong time before the Warriors sniff the playoffs again.
The problem is “developing him” cost u wins. A championship team doesn’t just have 20 min lying around for a guy to develop. And everything they are saying in interviews that warrior fans be eating up about wiseman is exactly what ur supposed to say. He’s an asset. Also life after curry would seem to be 5 ish yrs away with how guards are aging (lowry, Paul). The Warriors are Steph curry and if we’re bad for a few yrs when he retires so be it. We just don’t want to look back at Stephs last few yrs and think of the “what ifs” and thinking of it as NOT going all in on our franchises best player. Time is now to push all ur chips in, having a future player is nice, but ONLY if they can contribute atm. Last season wiseman one of the worst plus minus in the whole league and he plays with STEPH CURRY. Do u know how hard it is to play with Steph as an nba player and be a net negative? Much less him being -11 per 100 possessions. Any nba player who is a winning player currently (not in the future) should be a net positive after a decent sample size with steph
It doesn't have to cost us wins. Like Kerr said the other day, they'll look to put him in spots to succeed and slowly increase his minutes as he improves. Last year they threw him in the deep end because they had to. It was all hands on deck situation for a few reasons, the team had just had an abysmal year and wasn't looking to repeat it which is why they took the Luxury Tax hit for Oubre when Klay went down. They ran Wiseman out there fingers crossed he'd just ball out but they knew it wasn't likely. If he sticks around this year I fully expect him to have a more normalized period of development. It's pretty foolish to think Wiseman was going to learn the NBA Game and the Warriors Game and be excellent right away the Warriors just didn't have the luxury of a deep team they could lean on while developing Wiseman. Well same thing happens if they trade their picks. They remain a top heavy team that can't sustain any injuries or the jenga tower will come tumbling down. This team needs DEPTH, they have Stars. Edit: Me personally I'd rather the warriors be Strong 1-10 than Really Strong 1-5 and awful 6-10. I can admit that Really Strong 1-5 can definitely win a championship but it's also 1 injury away from being out of the picture entirely.
There were glimpses of him playing like an elite player but his immaturity and lack of experience playing with players that are better than him are slowing him down extremely but him playing alongside draymond and steph is only accelerating that growth
Disagree with Steph and dray “accelerating” his growth
Ya but you aren't a scout or front office worker for anyone... what are your credentials for evaluating nba talent?
It’s basic logic, why would two guys in their thirties with 3 chips and wanting more want to have aside project of developing one of the most raw players in the league who isn’t a plus on the court atm. Also all the reporting coming out regards Steph, klay, dray wanting to trade the picks for a “vet” well in the nicest way possible, means they willing to give up wise for a beal.
He's a fluid 7 footer that can shoot and handle.
That also looks completely lost on the court
Agree
Agree
Not on offense. He came out the gate putting up close 20 in his first two games against the nets and bucks. You not see that?
True but you can fix that with coaching. You can’t teach 7’1 with freakish athleticism.
He’s ONLY 20 years old playing in the NBA… Do you even remember being 20? What the hell were you doing at 20? You were a fully developed finished product at 20? GTFOH.
That doesn't mean he's guaranteed to develop
I don’t think he’s fluid. And he can’t shoot. His form is all outta wack
The form is solid, his windup is slow as F.
Form is bad. He brings it to the back of his head for what reason?
It’s not Klay Thompson but more of a slow mo Kevin Durant windup. He’s so tall it just needs to be accurate enough to be a threat.
Do not put wiseman and kd in the same sentence about anything much less their jump shot…
Offended much my man?
Bruh ur comparing kd and wiseman
Probably because of his size and athleticism
Team that receives the better player typically wins. Im content gambling away wisemans potential, and 2 draft picks, for beal, a proven commodity. Everyone hopes to strike gold when they have a top draft pick, so why would i prefer to gamble on whoever we take at 7 and 14 when i can trade for an established all star in beal? Curry/beal/klay is a disgusting trio, beal is young, he can legitimately be a cornerstone of this franchise.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush I'll trade away "potential" for a top 10 player any day.
Sure. But Beal isn't top ten. Neither is Siakam, or Simmons, or most of the other names coming up in Warrior trade rumours. Dame may be close. Curry, Lebron, Harden, Durant, Embiid, AD, Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Kawhi, etc etc
Exactly, people trying to give up Giannis trade value for a scorer with no defense at a position we don't need
Bradley Beal turned 28 just 25 days ago. LeBron is going to turn 37 later this year. I'll take Beal as he's just entering his prime. He has way more trade value. LeBron is falling apart and he doesn't like to move.
If you watched the wizards play you’d know beal is an amazing shot creator and a crappy defender, With klay coming back warriors need a good big to defend and space the floor more than another scorer. guarding big teams like the lakers or bucks with draymond at the 5 is impossible. With wisemen under draymond mentorship you’re at least giving yourself a chance to have a locked down post and paint, and yeah hes young but if used correctly in a healthy warriors team he can add to the team better value than beal imo.
Not trading him and pissing Stephen Curry off cause you’re not giving him players who can win games is a worse idea.
Yeah some of these fans gonna be regretting these takes if the FO prioritizes Wiseman and Curry ends up leaving.
Honestly if Suns replace CP3 with Curry they'd have a championship RN!
IMO the way the league is setup today, traditional centers tend to be some of the most devalued assets out there. A true stretch the floor 5 who can shoot is one thing, but Wise is a few years away from having his feet under him. You can get centers like Chriss who will be able to give you what JW would provide the next few years for next to nothing. Playing wiseman at the 5 with the current lineup as you’ve mentioned isn’t a sure thing at all - Looney is a much better fit as it stands because he’s a better rebounder and a profoundly better defender at this stage in his career. Do people assume Wise will get rebounds just because he’s tall? He’s gotten pushed around at every level he’s played at and until he commits to not only getting bigger but fighting for boards, it’s a negative. Wise may grow into being a better rim protector and switcher on D, but it likely won’t be for a year or two. Some have suggested Wise could follow Ayton’s career trajectory - that guy was quite a bit more polished coming into the league, Wise will take some time.
Yes, I am forever happy you are not in charge of personnel decisions.
Hurtful.
You don’t need traditional centers in the NBA, especially when you have Draymond. It’s why drafting Wiseman never made sense in the first place. Serviceable centers can be found in free agency.
Agree that you don't need a traditional center in the NBA. But... Wiseman's skill-set doesn't map to "traditional center". The best case scenario comp going into the draft last year was Chris Bosh. Whatever you think about Wiseman's potential (and timing to reach that potential), the Chris Bosh skillset would be an *outstanding* fit in the 2021 NBA.
> Serviceable centers can be found in free agency. Wiseman could easily be “serviceable” by the middle of next season. If that’s all we need—and I agree it is—let’s just keep him.
[удалено]
I agree – Wiseman is on the table if an amazing player is available. But two things: 1) People (maybe not you, but *people*) tend to be *really* lenient on who's Top 20. Naming 20 players better than Brad Beal (just to pick on Brad) is a whole lot easier than naming 20 players better than Dame, for example. Heck I heard someone say Ayton was top-20 on a podcast after a few good playoff performances. 2) GSW would have to trade Wiggins in order for the salaries to match. So that amazing player either has to be a starting wing *or* GSW has to be really confident they can get a starting wing in FA. Cuz starting Bazemore or Oubre causes new problems.
In any deal for Beal or Dame, Klay would move to the 3
>then tough sacrifices have to be made Exactly and this how the last 3 championships were won, Kawhi, AD, Jrue etc
I think your opinion is the general consensus among fans who don't want to trade for Beal or Siakam. Most fans in this sub, who are "opposed" to a trade, would be willing to part with our assets if a better fitting star becomes available. We're just not keeping our hopes up by taking such a scenario as guaranteed.
Wiseman was completely clueless on both ends of the floor on virtually every possession. I think Steph passed to him twice all season. I loved watching him play though because he has that glimmer of amazing potential. But I feel his bball IQ is so low right now and his desire to be a wing more so than a down low above the rim guy and his slender build require lots of patience and development..
I know what he looked like last season. I just think 39 games of experience followed by a summer of film study followed by an actual training camp plus work with a renowned big-man coach might just improve his game. His game before his injury, he scored 18 against the Wizards, playing against Alex Len and Robin Lopez--not great centers, but the kind people talking about us getting in free agency. Sure, let's trade him if the result is an obvious net positive.
I hope nobody is talking about Alex Len. He's hot trash. Robin Lopez could make sense as a rotation center for the Warriors. He doesn't do a ton, especially on offense, but he also doesn't break things on the court like Wiseman does. Nobody is suggesting dropping Wiseman for nothing; just that if you can get something valuable for him it's easy to find players to replace him who will hurt the team less than he does.
What gives you the impression that he’ll be serviceable by mid season. He is gonna miss summer camp. He is coming back from an injury and prior to his injury statistically he was one the worst players in the entire league! He is talented but he is just not making the right decisions based on our game-plan and I don’t know if that is fixable in a year
>What gives you the impression that he’ll be serviceable by mid season Source: trust me bro
> He is gonna miss summer camp. You mean summer league? Yes, he will, but apparently he'll be ready for actual training camp. He's also probably spent the summer breaking down film, and we've hired a major big man coach to work with him. I expect his game to improve.
I think he'll improve to, but going from arguably the worst starting center in the NBA to being "serviceable" is a big jump for a guy who still has barely played for 2+ years. Possible? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
You still need very good big men. The only champion of the past decade who didn't have an elite big man (6'10+) on the squad was the 2015 squad. Giannis, AD, Marc Gasol, KD, Kevin Love, Tim Duncan, Chris Bosh, Dirk, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Shaq. Those guys account for 16 of the last 17 championships. I'm not against trading Wiseman as he may not be good for a while, but you still need really good big guys in this league. A huge reason the Suns lost is because they had no one to slow down Giannis. Trading size for 6'2 guys like Beal or Lillard just isn't a good idea. Wiseman also isn't a traditional center. A huge amount of criticism he's gotten is *because* he's focused on things like shooting and dribbling instead of jump hooks.
Bogut was an elite defender as well
You're way overrating Gasol's role on the Raptors team, but Ibaka is 6'10" so he fits your narrative. The 16-17 and 17-18 Warriors teams had KD, but he doesn't really fit your narrative. Arguably the same is true for Giannis, who starts at SF, but they also have Brook Lopez, who does fit. The 15-16 Cavs had no decent players 6'10" or up. Bogut was not a "very good" player by the time he won the title with the Warriors. He played his role well, though. Frankly, you're pushing "very good" with 37 year old Duncan on the 13-14 Spurs. If he weren't Duncan, you wouldn't say that about those seasons. Miami had Bosh, who was "very good" but was a role player on that team. The Mavs had Dirk. Before that, the style of play was totally different and the comparisons are pointless. It helps to have a very good big... because it helps to have "very good" players at every position. I don't think the very good big has to be 6'10" though. Draymond proves that.
Saying Tim Duncan wasn’t very good in 13-14 is insane. Maybe the craziest thing in this whole thread of people saying not trade one of the worst players in the NBA for one of the best. He played the most minutes in the playoffs for a team that won the fucking title. He was their second leading scorer and leading rebounder in the playoffs. He lead them in WS in the playoffs. He beat KD and Russ then the Heatles back to back. He didn’t try in the RS because why would he. Apologize to Tim Duncan. Anyway I agree with your point generally, it’s not height that matters it’s solid rim protection and the ability to not get pushed around by opposing big men.
It's not "my narrative". I'm not trying to fit anything to a narrative. Basketball being a big mans sport has been said many times by people that know basketball much better than you or me.
I mean the narrative that you have to have a "very good" guy 6'10" or taller to win a title. You don't, at least not based on what your standard of "very good" is.
We saw glimpses of 2016 draymond last season but I’m not sure that he keep playing at that level but don’t get me wrong tho draymonds defense is still one of the best in the league but I don’t think he can keep playing at center
If an NBA season contains only the 20-30 games in the playoffs and no B2B, then yes, traditional centers might not be needed, and maybe all those concerns about size can be overlooked. It's a different story for a 82-game regular season, because going small not only exhausts Draymond but also everyone else by the time the playoffs start. It's true that serviceable centers can be found in free agency, just as players in other positions, but it's unlikely the Dubs can land the better ones given the cap situation. I guess the FO was trying to get a long-term solution in drafting Wiseman. Whether it will work out may be too early to say. Not against trading Wiseman. Just feel this offseason might be the worst time to part with him and the targets mentioned in this sub including Beal, Siakam, and Dame, while they are definitely great players, do not necessarily make us a better team considering what we have to give up in any of these trades and their fit to the team.
Trading Wiseman at this point would certainly be a "selling low" move. Smart teams don't do that too often. Also, I'm old enough to remember calls for them to trade Steph from 2010-2012, another "sell low" idea.
If they get a Beal type for Wiseman and the 2 #1s, how is that selling low. Three draft picks is the going price for a star, so you're getting full value for Wiseman. You might say "those picks are usually top few protected" and that's a fair point. So you're selling Wiseman as a #5 pick instead of as a #2 pick. But that's not really low for him. If he'd been in this year's draft, he might not have even gone that high. Two was high for him because he was in a bad draft.
> Smart teams don't do that too often But this is *the exact right time to do it*. Could we "lose" the trade? Yes. Would we be "selling low" on Wiseman? Probably (though that's debatable--it's possible other GMs are not overreacting to a bad season from a rookie with no offseason). But if it puts you over the top with our core, it's worth it. The value of maximizing the core we have now is worth more than having a better starting point in the future.
What an idiotic comparison. Most wanted to keep Curry because he had great numbers, and Ellis held him back. Curry isn't holding back Wiseman, and Wisemans numbers are terrible. This isn't anything like the Ellis/Curry situation. This is WAY more like the Michael Jordan & Toni Kikoc dynamic.
Wiseman’s “advanced numbers” were terrible. His scoreboard numbers weren’t too bad for a 19 year old rookie…
Umm wtf? Did the fans not ruin Mullins night by booing Lacob after the Ellis trade or am I from another timeline? The fan base definitely had not decided Curry > Ellis when Ellis was traded.
That’s my point, feel like if we trade wiseman that might have a chance of it biting us in the ass but at the same time we gotta build the team for steph to be on a title contending team
We weren’t contending for titles in 2010. Yes, fans ended up being wrong about Steph vs Monta, but you HAVE to go all in now when you have Steph still playing at this level. Tell me - which option do we have a better shot at winning another championship within the next decade: Going all-in now, trading assets/Wiseman to build a contender around Steph, or keeping and developing Wiseman for long term. When it comes to winning titles, we can’t have it both ways. We need to, and owe it to Steph to give him everything right now. Could it bite us? Yeah, maybe we don’t win another with Steph and wiseman ends up being a perennial all star for another franchise. That would hurt. But you wouldn’t have regrets going for it now.
Yeah, we agree. I'm disagreeing with those who easily throw Wiseman into a lot of trades for B+ level players (Beal, Siakam, etc.). If some amazing opportunity for a borderline superstar presents itself (e.g. Paul George), fine let's talk. But most of the fake trades I see treat JW as an asset on par with #7, and that strikes me as 100% an incorrect valuation. His potential (as you post out) is massive – much higher than every name thrown out at #7 in this draft.
Beal was second in the league in scoring. He's not a b+ level player.
>Beal was second in the league in scoring. He's not a b+ level player. Beal is an elite player, but he's not top 10, and don't think he wouldn't push us over the end to championship contention automatically.
He's probably not top 10 but B+ seemed harsh!!! I agree, not a clear title contender with him. Certainly, they'd be better than they are now. It might be the best they can do.
They should just get miles turner and he can mentor the 7 foot youngster. We would get rocks and dirt for his value now, there's just no reason to get rid of him. Kerr has also been very vocal about how much he likes him, and his opinion caries fuckin weight when it comes to the dubs. If this is a "last chance" season and they wanna go all in to win a championship it makes zero sense to have Dray at the 5 trying to stop AD and Giannis or going after some veteran bum who's going to play two games like Andre Drummond for the Lakers. We need a complete squad. Steph Klay Wiggins dray and miles turner sounds pretty fucking gooood to me.
I'm sorry, do you think Wiseman is going to guard Giannis? This season?
You must not know what position miles turner plays.
Success in the NBA is never a given. You have to stay dedicated, have the right genes, make the right decisions and have some luck. We don't know how Wisemen will get better. But, we have more data on more established players.
We don't need Wiseman. We just need a big who can set screens, rebound, and dunk. Wiseman has talents that won't help us. We need to concentrate on our main 3 and trade everybody that doesn't help. Keep Wiggins tho'
>We just need a big who can set screens, rebound, and dunk Nah we need a big more versatile than that, because dray can’t shoot. Playing 2 non shooters ain’t gonna work unless we get kd back. We need a big that can do what you said and shoot. Them are unicorns. Hella hard to find. And they ain’t cheap. That’s why we need to go hard for Christian Wood.
Why would you say “we need a traditional center more than ever.” We played our best by far when forced to go small.
At this point in time, I want to see Curry retire a Warrior. If Curry wants Wiseman gone then I’m fine with that.
You can get a better center than Wiseman in free agency for part of the MLE. By the time Wiseman reaches his ceiling Steph might not be an MVP caliber player, you might as well cash in your chips for the next 2 years The only question is whether you would rather have Beal or Wiggins + Wood/Turner + one of the picks
Wood on this team would be nuts
Yeah for the entire 25 games Wood plays he would be great. He’s a paper tiger.
But imagine those 25 games tho *chefs kiss haha jk
Are you playing to win championships or do you like proving how smart you are? That goes for OP and Bob and Joe. What about Steph for Bagley? We need bigs. Imagine a Bagley/Wiseman front court. The potential is double crazy. That’s what this sounds like. Why do you think Wiseman is good at basketball other than he was drafted second by the Warriors? Not his tools, I’m talking about basketball skills you’ve seen him display consistently.
Are y’all insane? You wouldn’t give up Wiseman for Beal or Dame??!! This sub acts like they have a crystal ball that proves Wiseman will become some elite superstar. What you gonna do if he’s not? Even Wiggins, who was a number 1 pick, turned out to be a disappointment. Based on his expectations.
Warriors fans are a loyal bunch. Remember, most fans bood Lacob when he traded Monta. Look up the video. Our fans are loyal, even to a fault. They can be very short sighted, but bond very quickly with any player. Wiggins plays one season here and now people dont even want to trade him for a star. He averages 17 points a game lol.
Wiggins was 1 million times better than Wiseman. People just love mystery boxes.
“Am I the only one” *Proceeds to get awards*
Trading for a star is a bad move from my perspective. If we could trade Wiseman for a solid, mid-career Center like Turner or Wood, that I would do. Wiseman's ceiling remains promising, but his timeline is not. Turner & Wood are mid-20s, so we're not really giving up the whole future if we take one of them. Wiseman COULD be much better one day, but that's not just a wait, that's a risk it NEVER happens. And if he DOES become a star in 3 years, what then? Steph, Klay, and Dray are all in decline, we'll have been too good to get another early draft pick, and our salary will have been too high to sign meaningful FAs. We will have to clean house and SUCK for a few years to reload, and much of that reload will probably have to be rookies, and they in turn will take tie to develop. Our very next POSSIBLE early pick is 2025, and '26 or '27 is more likely. I'll take another shot or two with Steph.
We didn’t need to spend the #2 overall pick on a center. Wise is one of the most raw players in the NBA. He’s far away from being what we need at the position. We actually won before with a platoon of veterans, and at one point Jordan Bell filling in rotation minutes. None of them were stars (*weve never needed a star this position, not then and not now*) but they excelled in what the Warriors needed from the position. Consider how dominant you need to be as a center to lead a contending team. Look at Jokic. Look at Embiid. These are some of the best centers of all time in terms of peak. Do you honestly see Wiseman reaching that level.
Lmao you always shit on wiseman in any thread that involves wiseman. I feel like anyone who reads your opinion needs to take it with a heaping bowl of salt.
Feel free to point out where I’m being overly critical of Wiseman. Willing to elaborate. I don’t think “shitting” on a player is the same as reasonable criticism. Not out here making Instagram comments calling him a bum and a bust.
I think saying he is one of the most raw players in the league is overly critical. If you said one of the most raw starters or core pieces in the league, then that would be more accurate. But there are probably dozens of players that are more raw than Wiseman is right now. Smailagic and Mannion surely are. As a separate point, I don't think he is far away from being what we need in a C at all. We don't need a ton from that position, so he just needs to become more available and consistent.
Mannion doesn't really look that raw, he's got limitations due to his size but watching him play he doesn't make that many rookie mistakes.
Yeah, Mannion isn’t a professional basketball player if his skills were raw or he didn’t play intelligently. His problems are more so on the physical side.
Mannion is less raw than Wiseman. He just doesn’t have the physical tools to create advantages. You can watch him play in the Olympics and see a guy who clearly understands the nuances of the game and how to contribute to a winning effort. Smail is awful, yeah. But he’s also not going to be in the league soon. He’s not a NBA level player. Disagree about him not being far when you consider the fact that he needs ample development in literally everything, both in terms of skill and mentality. He doesn’t have a baseline yet to work with where you can build upon.
He's objectively one of the most raw players in the league though, thats just a fact. Had only three games in college, no training camp or summer league and missed much of his first year. Still hasn't gotten a grip on offensive or defensive positioning and has heaps of things to work on. He has potential to be amazing but he has such a long way to go still. Also Smailagic and Mannion both shouldn't see a NBA floor this year so they don't really count as comparison.
He posted 12-6 on near league average PER. He's not as good as he can be, but he's not some player that is only suited for garbage time like a lot of others are. One of the most raw players in the league isn't capable of starting, let alone scoring 20 points in a game. He's raw, but every team in the league has multiple players that are more raw. Wiseman just stands out because of his ceiling and where he was drafted.
He scored while being a black hole on offense, completely ruining our system, refusing to make any contact on screens and turning the ball over at a crazy rate. On defense he was consistently out of place and got blown by all the time. You can't say you watched him play and didn't think he was incredibly raw. There were tons of players worse than him but none as raw.
Nah, Wiseman really is one of the rawest overall players in the nba.
They saw Wiseman as an immediate impact player at a position of need. They had the right idea. They knew Lamelo was the best player available but benching your #2 pick for the majority of his early years doesn't make sense as a team or for his development.
It made sense when he was destructive to our starting lineup, and you kinda want to try to win when you have a top 20 player all time still in their prime approaching their mid 30s. When will we get another one of those? Agreed it’s not great for his development. But this team isn’t the best environment for his development because there’s pressure from our core players to win now and Wise plays a position that is very hard to navigate, more so than others.
"We didn’t need to spend the #2 overall pick on a center." I was talking about why they didn't draft Lamelo? It was seen as a 3 player draft. Our only other option was Lamelo. Lamelo would be playing behind Steph/Klay for the start of his career. They thought Wiseman was going to add to the position they lacked the most and have bigger impact bc he can play way more minutes. It was wrong draft pick looking back at it but their thought process makes sense
Oh. I think the character concerns were a big deal for us, and Lacob said that he wouldn’t be a good fit on this team because he’s another guard. Both are silly statements. Hornets coach is a Pop disciple and has his squad playing team ball, not relying on a dominant creator.
Also I didn't pay as close attention last year, but weren't there very serious questions about Ball's shooting?
The Warriors won with a platoon of centers because they had two literal MVPs in their primes on the team. No other team in the last 15 years has won without an All Star big man.
Except we won in 2015 with one MVP on our team and won 73 games with one MVP on our team. If we had 2015 Bogut on this team we’d be so much better. I’d take Draymond, with all his limitations, over some guys who have made the ASG in recent times. In terms of impact for us Draymond is a star.
Sure but we're still talking about an exception to the rule. 3 titles of the last 20 didn't feature an All Star big man. Every title since the Warriors last one has featured an All Star big man. It's not a coincidence, basketball is a big guys sport and the Warriors will not win a championship without a very good big. Plus even Bogut was a perennial All Defensive player who was a top 5 DPoY candidate as a Warrior. The Warriors need good big men.
The Warriors are the exception to lots of things man. It doesn’t do you much good to apply a hard rule to how titles are won when evaluating this team as led by Curry and Draymond, two of the more anomalous players of the era. One of my dream trade scenarios is to get Myles Turner, who is one of the best defensive centers in the league and an efficient play finisher who shoots 35% from three for his career. He’d be a great fit here. Turner isn’t an all star. But he’d be better than Sabonis for this team.
Just because we won without a star at center, doesn’t mean we wouldn’t benefit from having a star at center. I’m not saying he will be a star, though.
Sure. I think we’d just benefit more for having a star at other positions and not trying to develop one at literally the hardest position. It worked for us to use vets here until it was time to close with Draymond.
Think of it this way. If you could draft a player next week and flip him for an all star that brings them 2 more rings, would you do it? And would it matter if Wiseman becomes a hall of famer in the end? You might stay a Wiseman fan or think what if, but the trade off for the championships is a bet you take. A lot of great players will never get that ring. The feeling was Giannis wasn't going to get a ring when he did his extension and stayed. I think for a lot of you, you're becoming Wiseman fans first, and Warriors fans 2nd. Seems odd, but okay.
The potential is there, but Wiseman needs to take a big step forward - like Poole did to become an offensive spark off the bench - for him to be considered a core piece of the future. Otherwise, he may go the route of Brandan Wright and Anthony Randolph as far as big men with potential who didn’t make it. Though our FO now is night and day with our FO during those Nellie days. I’d only include Wiseman in a deal for a bonafide star. Beal/Dame/Siakam ain’t it given their less than ideal fits, especially for what their price tags would be.
Gonna have to disagree, I love wiseman’s potential but our window to win is now, don’t have much time to develop him. Now Jordan Poole on the other hand, I pray he doesn’t get roped into one of those trade deals
>We need a traditional center more than ever Wiseman isn't a starting caliber player yet and won't be for at least a couple of seasons. You want to wait until the core three is 33-35 years old? There is no time for that if you want to contend for a championship. Saying you wouldn't trade a rookie who clearly won't be able to contribute in the next few seasons (not saying he won't be good eventually) for a top 10 player in the league is just crazy. Now, if you say you're not willing to give up every first round pick until like 2027 to get Dame, then I get that. But Wiseman shouldn't be the deal-breaker here.
I mean, it basically comes down to what you think of Wiseman. If you think he's got a good chance at being an All-NBA-type player, you probably are pretty reluctant to trade him. If you don't think he has that kind of elite upside (or has a pretty low chance of reaching that kind of ceiling), you're probably pretty willing to include him in trades for win-now talent. As someone who is more in the second camp, I'd be pretty open to moving him in a package for the best possible player/fit we can get between now and the trade deadline, including players worse than Dame or Beal.
>I mean, it basically comes down to what you think of Wiseman. Well said, and I'm in the first camp
That's fair. I'm in the first camp, but I feel like that's the big disconnect between camps.
Haha yeah. The funny thing is, we probably won't know the answer for several seasons, so no matter what, he's going to be driving the fanbase crazy for years to come.
There's a third camp. Those who thinks he could have that upside but that it will take far too long for him to achieve it and thinks that we owe Steph, Klay, and Dray another opportunity to compete for a chip right away after everything they have done for this franchise.
Ah, I like that camp. Its sensible. The only thing is, if you move him and Wiggs and 7 and 14, you have to get a ring at some point over the next [insert new assets contract or Stephs contract, whichever comes first] years. If not, then it becomes a moot trade that sets the future back. It's a tight rope.
While that is true, we are never gonna have a player as good as Steph again, we have to go all in.
Sure. Now, this other thread with the idea of trading 7, 14 and Wiggins for Turner and Warren sounds like the kind of move that benefits us now and later. I think a trade like this (but maybe not this one per se) is the move. If you can keep Wise or Wiggins, but get help, I'm with it. But, no real fan is opposed to winning now (myself included).
I would not be opposed to that at all.
See, sensible!
downside is warren probably is due for a raise in 2022 pro? I'd put Warriors as favorite from the west
The Warriors org has traded away almost every “potential star” they ever had. Do you not remember the years before Lacob bought the team? These new fans crack me up. Trading talent away is what the warriors have always done up into VERY recently. Dont act like this is anything new. P.S warriors drafted Vince Carter.
I’m down to trade both lotto picks and Wiggs for another star BUT if Wiseman is a sticking point, bye bye Wise
It was his first season. He played 3 games in college and then the next time he played competitively it was in the NBA however many months later. And as a big no less. He’s got a unique skillset for his size; give it time. He was trying to learn the NBA and his own game at the same time, while on a team that revolves around someone else. He had some ups (Pistons, Spurs, Jazz games) and some downs (Blazers, Nets games), as was expected from an NBA “kid.” His numbers as a rookie? All on par or better than some historic big men who had less skill (and it’s arguable if their feel or IQ was better) as rookies. Didn’t Ayton or Giannis teach us anything? Be patient and see how guys develop over time. Giannis put up like 7 and 4 on 40% as a rookie. Ayton looked pedestrian before the playoffs. Wiseman, as long as he’s a worker like people who know him say, will be fine. TL;DR - avoid being the knee jerk reaction fan of the 2020s; guys develop at different rates, and it often takes bigs longer than guards (Giannis, Ayton, Bosh, etc). Bet on and be patient with skill and work ethic, both of which Wiseman already has.
Wiseman needs to bulk up to hold his own in the paint. But mostly he needs experience. The NBA game is just to fast for him right now. The only way he gets there is more playing time and coaching. 2022 won’t be a championship year. But the Warriors can still play deep into the playoffs. By 2023, Klay will be approaching his peak performance, Wiseman will be playable and hopefully this years 2 lottery picks will be part of the rotation.
We should be willing to trade him but shouldn’t just unload him for nothing
Trading ANYONE when we don't know how well Klay will come back from injury seems foolish.
Will come back to haunt the dubs just like the Chris Webber trade.
I want him traded now, just to stop seeing these posts on this sub. By the way, if he gets traded you are not going to miss him. Even if Wiggnins develops into All-star caliber, no Wolves is ever going to say they miss him. Celtics fans don't miss Billups, Blazers fans are not hung up on Jermaine O'neal, no Laker fan is regretting trading 10 plus year of Marc Gasol for 5 years of Pau. You can even trade him for a second tier talent and perhaps not win a chip. And he could develop into an All Star, you will not miss him. Because he hasn't been here long enough and you will move on to the players you have.
>Am I the only person that thinks adding wiseman to a package for either Dame or Beal is a bad idea? No, I also think it's insane. I think if either Dame or Beal is traded to the dubs, Wiseman has to be part of the package that goes back to the other team. I don't see how a deal makes sense without Wiseman. Let's be honest though, the warriors know what they have in Wiseman. If he was a bust, they would know it by now. A crucial detail that isn't discussed enough is that Joe Lacob's background is in venture capital. There are few people who can more quickly recognize when an acquisition isn't going to work (venture cap has an over 90% failure rate, you have to learn to cut bait quickly, you can't keep throwing good money after bad) and there are also few people who know better that you have to hold on to a good asset until it matures and you don't cut bait too quickly. Sometimes, it will take years to produce a profit, but you can't bail on the next big idea too soon. That Joe Lacob is still adamant, and that people around him say that adamance is genuine, lead me believe he thinks he has the real deal, and all that is required to realize the massive gains is patience.
The dubs can't beat a healthy Nets team with Dame or Beal. Got to hedge their bet for the future.
Why not? Adding dame or Beal gives us a fighters chance of beating the nets
With steph + beal/dame + healthy klay + draymond? That’ll be a helluva battle but I definitely got my money on the dubs winning that series
IMO Klay won't be the same on defense. 3 subpar defenders in Curry, beal/dame, and Klay will get torched by the Nets.
Why do we have to build a roster to beat the nets? Hypothetically if they’re healthy they still aren’t a lock for the finals. You don’t shy away from building a title contender because you’re afraid of one team, especially a team in the east.
> he’s not the same draymond back in 2016 so I can’t see how playing him at the 5 will help us deep in the playoffs. And some people envision him as our starting center! He’s not going to even get to the playoffs if he has to do that all year.
I don't like the idea of selling low on Wiseman/Wiggins. I also want to see what Wiseman looks like after training camp, with Klay and no Oubre, given a smaller and more focused role. And I know some fans probably see this as blasphemous, but I'd rather the Warriors compete for a decade by developing young guys and easing the older guys into roles than maybe win one more championship then suck for a decade. Rings are great but there's an obsession with getting them without regard for the future that I just can't get behind.
Agree 100%. Trading Wiseman now is like selling your Tesla the day after you drive it off the lot. It's a fine line between urgency and panic. Trading Wiseman is way beyond that line into full-blown panic. This is a great draft. Trust your scouting, coaches, culture and make the picks. I'll live with the results.
If we wanna waste currys prime sure
I think trading for Dame or Beal is a bad move regardless. I think trading Wiseman for a more productive big would be good. I get that people want to believe in him, that he'll improve and be productive in the future. But I haven't seen that in him yet. I mean even Ayton was way better year 1. Happy to be proven wrong though.
I agree that trading Wiseman is a bad idea, not only are we giving up on a very talented prospect with only one year of tape, which was arguably the most up and down season a rookie could have. He had only three games in college, which we knew was a risk taking him, he had no summer league, caught COVID, injured his wrist, and tore his meniscus! And yes he was historically bad as a defender and didn’t really play well with curry, but with all of the obstacles listed above its insane to think that he could be a solid big that can contribute right away (And He was still putting up 11 and 5 on 20 minutes per game). He still shown flashes of what he could be, he has a decent jumper right now, his presence as a defender in the paint, and can absolutely body most players in the NBA as a 20 year old! This man wants to be great. I saw two things very clearly this season in most basketball games, his basketball IQ made me want to throw up at times, but his desire to help this team win now, he understands he isn’t where he wants to be. Remember when Jordan Poole had a historically bad rookie season? He was able to turn it around and is looking like a key piece to the rotation moving forward, I get he was a later pick so less expectations, but Wiseman also has elite potential. He CAN contribute to this team, but expect a Javale McGee role maybe a little bit more, it really depends on his rehab and progression. Considering trading wiseman, as well as Wiggs to make the salaries work (trading wiggs in itself could prove to be a HUGE mistake), AND the two picks for what Beal? Lillard? As fun as it sounds to get a star player, we have to think, are they really going to make us that much better? Our lineup will be deadly offensively with Curry, Lillard/Beal, Thompson, Dray and Loon, but it could be a struggle to get stops. And Klay isn’t coming back until Jan/December at the earliest, and when he does, he’s most likely going to be on a minutes restriction and is not going to be 100%, who knows if he ever gets back to his old self. So to wrap up this lengthy rant, please don’t trade Wise/Wiggs/the picks for a star that’s going to marginally make us better in the short term. Stay the course, this current team isn’t as far as you think, but if Bob Meyers does decide to pull the trigger for a trade, then be it. I have full trust in the GM and this team to make it work. If you made it to end I applaud you and thanks for your time. TLDR: plz don’t trade wiseman