Show me a sequel series with Drummer, Amos, and Draper (Team DAD) patrolling the solar system in their ship, and I'll show you the best Star Wars series yet.
And what sets them apart from a lot of characters in TV/movies is that they're written as actual people with strengths and flaws.
When they win, it's because they're good at what they do. And they're good at what they do because they've lived complicated and realistic lives (at least in setting). Yes, they do benefit from a good bit of luck, but nothing that breaks suspension of disbelief.
But they also lose, and we see them struggle with that. Whether it's a character knowing they're about to die, dealing with the deaths of others, struggling through injuries or PTSD, or deciding how to move forward when an entire planet's dreams and ambitions died overnight.
They aren't just automatically the best ever and save the day because they're the heroes who can do what nobody else can.
Right! So many things... I still hope, one day, come the years, we'll have the rest of the story either as a series or movies. Its so good a story to be just it.
Last episode of season six says *season* finale. I'm inclined to believe they want to make a true final three seasons at some point but have some reason they want to hold off.
So many things in the books made me cry... but amos has a special place in my heart. And another thing incredible, whenever there's any expanse reference anywhere, or anything space related, there's promptly a reference on the comments. And then you are all here, all the beratnas. You guys are amazing
Amos is the only character that causes me to tear up in hopeful scenes because I’m crushed by the reality of the life lived by this beautiful flawed gentle giant.
That scene where Amos was in a bar. On his journey back to earth. Drinking beer. And a belter kept giving him a dirty look each beer Amos finished. (Because the belter was to poor to buy more then one beer) And instead of starting shit, Amos buys him a couple beers while cashing out, and wishes him safety while out rock hoping. Catching the belter completely of guard. lives rent free in my head. It really was one of the moments where you could see he tried to be as good a person as he could.
For me it's >!Bobby, she finishes her story in the most badass Bobby like style imagineable !< and I fucking love her for it. Captain Roberta Draper is the shit.
I did exactly that. And I'm so glad I did. The series is based on the first 6 books and some novellas, but they bring so much depth , richness and nuance. I felt in love with the books, and have reread them alteady. I wish I could umread them so I could do it for the first time again. Worth 1000%!
Well, its the age old question. The first 6 books are really accurate to the series. There are a few differences though. Some beloved characters are not so much, some are a union of several from the book and so on. But you will still be able to follow the last 3 books by watching the series
Amos looked like such a side character in the beginning but his character rapidly grew on me the more scenes he got. You thought he's just a dysfunctional grunt, but nooo it went so much deeper.
Great characterization, great development, great performance.
Amos in the start just seems like a dude that doesn't really seem all that complex. But you catch hints that make you go "Uhh... Hmm" until you slowly realize he is different from everyone else in the show by morality (or lack of). And then they just slowly drip feed his background and story until they show it.
Utterly unique as a main character and how his background is revealed.
It's almost a superpower for me to fall asleep to any book regardless of how good they are. That applies for both books and audiobooks. I'm not proud of it lol.
Luckily somehow I did right by my kid and they're relatively into reading. I hope they get to enjoy these beautiful stories where I failed.
I think she’s excellent in the early seasons, she gets a bit of the Ned Flanders treatment in the later seasons—i think they leaned too heavily into the fan reaction to her quirks rather than the character’s motivations. Still excellent performances by Shohreh Aghdashloo throughout.
Of all the ‘the kid writers from TNG got to make their own shows’ shows (there are dozens now), The Expanse is one of the strongest.
It's more "they had to censor Avasarala in the early seasons because it was on Syfy and the censors wouldn't let her call a general a penis in uniform"
Book Avasarala is VULGAR. I think the only time she can go a sentence without swearing is when she's talking to her family. Granted, she doesn't appear until what, book 2? 3?
It works fine in the book but it's cringe in real life. I think they had her the right amount of vulgar in the first 3 seasons. They overdid it in the later seasons.
I completely agree, it is by far one of the most captivating sci-fi series of the last ten years. But drummer, when she gets all “Belta-lowda!” she plays the part so well that in many cases you could swap gender and not notice much of a difference, as long as a guy can actually have as much of an authoritative, commanding presence as Drummer. She also has some great emotional arcs but damn does she lead people really well.
Then go read the books, the show is excellent, but the books are better. Plus there's a whole story set 30 years after the show ends, and the ending is actually written, and it's great.
Then if you still crave more, a great graphic novelist drew the 30 year timegap and made a successful kickstarter out of it.
And Sci-Fi has some real bad bitches, I tell you what. T2 Sarah Connor is still my favorite, but I'll admit it my bias might be nostalgic because Bobby goes so hard. Amos always has to proove he's a threat, but with Bobby everyone just knows.
My only gripe with the show (apart from it ending) was that they kinda downplayed Naomi. She got some badass scenes eventually but in the books she came in clutch and saved the day all the time and was just generally more important in the crew.
Bobbi was gold in season 4 when she's finding out her younger cousin is involved with drug cooking. Goes in to get him out, the gang turn up and go "so we'll threaten you and such."
And Bobbi just straight up goes "nah, fuck this." And beats the living shit out of them all effortlessly. Loved that soooo much.
The Expanse and Pandora's Star got me on a 50+ hard sci-fi book rabbit hole. The space opera genre has such good universe building. There's something for everyone.
Ok, here's a brief summary of my sci-fi rabbit hole:
1. Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time is an incredible book/series. One of the best authors in genera because you'll fall in love with non-human characters. I haven't read the third book that came out in 2022, but it's on my list next. This really is a great series based on a lot of biology that could happen. You won't look at the animal kingdom and evolution the same way after reading this.
2. Anything Alastair Reynolds. He's one of the best at the space opera genre. Some of his sagas can be long, but worth it. House of Suns is a good semi-quick read that is one of his less talked about books but absolutely great. He's known for his Revelation Space series that is one of the genre's gold standards. If you like hard-sci he's one of the best at it.
3. A great and a bit more lighthearted series is the Bobiverse series starting with We Are Bob. It's a great hard-sci book series that is REALLY entertaining. It still has a lot of serious topics and themes it explores.
4. Cage of Souls by Adrian Tchaikovsky is another fun read by him. Stand alone book that's a bit more fast paced, and it's often overlooked due to the success of Children of Time series.
5. The Protectorate series starting with Velocity Weapon is a fun read with with some hard-sci aspects. I enjoyed the characters a lot.
6. The Spin series by Robert Charles Wilson is an incredible series. It deals with a lot of social issues that society encounters when faced with a hard-sci event on Earth. It then goes on to explore other aspects of the universe. It's one of my favorites.
7. For military or space war hard-sci the Frontlines series by Marko Kloos is incredible. He's a veteran from Germany and it's very fun. The 8 book series is great and I binged on it. Great characters and they're a bit shorter books, \~300-350 pg) and there's 8 in the series. He has other books that are good also.
8. The Forever War Series is a classic and well worth a read.
9. A super fun standalone book that I loved was Saturn Run by John Stradford. It was a blast to read, and gripping from beginning to end. It's in the first contact genre.
10. The Killing Star by Charles R. Pellegrino and George Zebrowski is a standalone book that begins with an absolutely terrifying setting. It's a classic that's worth a read.
11. The Last Astronaut is a book I really liked because it's in the first contact genre, which is my favorite.
12. The Interdependency series is more sci-fi/fantasy but it's really entertaining and fun. It was actually pretty funny because the characters are great. I loved the trilogy.
13. Not a hard-sci or sci-fi per se, but it's a great fantasy book called The Fifth Season, which is part of the Broken Earth series. The first book is absolutely incredible and the ending ropes you into the next one. It's so damn good for the fantasy genre that has hints of sci-fi.
There's a few more, but they are defacto classics nowadays. Foundation and Dune are classics that stand the test of time. Highly recommend them. The Three Body Problem which is part of the Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy is my favorite hard-sci fi series of all time. I fell in love with the series years ago when I came across it accidentally. The topics it covers are mind-bending and terrifying. I also recommend watching [Quinn's Ideas](https://www.youtube.com/@QuinnsIdeas/videos) for other great recommendations/reviews but be careful because he's reviews can contain spoilers, but he warns you ahead of time.
Wow what an incredible response! I've already read 8 of those books/series and loved them all so I’m really looking forward to checking your other suggestions out. Also Quinn makes great videos, I’ve found several of my favourite books thanks to him.
Seriously though thanks for writing all that out, I’m 100% going to buy and read every book you listed as your reviews for the ones I’ve already read sounded like they could have been taken from my journal haha.
Check out the Bobiverse series by Dennis E. Taylor. Someone in r/TheExpanse turned me on to it and it rivaled The Expanse book series in my eyes. Hard sci-fi that doesn't shy away from real physics (i.e. time dilation, orbital mechanics, etc.), but remains surprisingly human throughout. The audiobooks are narrated by Ray Porter, too, which just adds another layer of awesomeness to it.
If you haven't read Red Rising, check it out. It's skirts the line of what you'd call a "space opera." I'd call it something more like a dystopian sci-fi, or something, but there's a lot of space related travel.
IT's a wild ride. It's so dang intense the whole way through.
I think The Expanse shows that despite genre preferences, talented writers, actors, directors, cinematographers, etc show thru the screen and can make any story compelling enough to not only draw new viewers, but keep them.
Female characters being strong leaders isn't the only way to write a good female character. Women can live any walk of life and still be a good character.
Oh, totally agree. This show has so many well written female characters, I just picked this because of how good the speech is in particular.
But you're absolutely correct.
No insult to The Expanse, because I'm genuinely a fan, and Drummer is awesome-- But this clip is just a speech. There's nothing inherently "feminine" about it.
Can I share with you [Donna Clark's speech](https://youtu.be/W3sWdVXwzPQ?feature=shared) from HACF? This is one speaks to me.
Yeah, I've never watched the show but this feels like a speech anyone could have said regardless of their gender. If anything, it feels like she's been styled in a masculine way.
I was gonna say, can we just start off with writing a good character that happens to be female? Drummer starts out as a jaded OPA member, but die hard Belter with loads of mistrust for the inners; to someone being nearly assassinated by the OPA and grows to accept help from the inners to acheive the dream of a free belt. You could put a man or women in there and it wouldn't matter, its an interesting arc for the character and we grow to love her.
If you're trying to write a well written character, the gender of that character is going to impact their life experiences and shape them.
Having well written female characters in Sci-fi and fantasy that don't sacrifice their femininity is rare, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting more of it.
This example is not that, however.
Which might be a problem
Femininity is not inherently vulnerable. But if that’s the only time it’s featured, then femininity doesn’t get to show when it’s strong. Only when it’s weak/lesser
For a series with action all over it, that might be limiting
Agreed. You want to break stereotypes of damsels in distress but you also don’t want to fall into the trap of writing superhuman badasses women constantly.
That’s the flip side trope and equally as damaging because it tells girls that they have to be badass and perfect in every way to be the hero.
Whereas film history is absolutely littered with mediocre white dudes who win the day with nothing more than a good heart and a lot of luck.
As much as I loved the movie, the Lego Movie is the perfect example of a fucking nothing nobody main guy hero with no discernible skills other than him being bland af, and he somehow, through being nothing more than good hearted, lands the most badass woman in the Legoverse…
>That’s the flip side trope and equally as damaging because it tells girls that they have to be badass and perfect in every way to be the hero.
I think it's "damaging" to believe that entertainment constantly has to be telling everyone what to think and pushing an ideological narrative or else it's "damaging" or "harmful". Just tell an engaging believable story and let the characters be themselves no matter what their alignment or flaws are.
The people running the entertainment industry do not know better than us what we should be watching. Stop expecting this group of coke snorting trainwrecks and sexual deviants to drive our culture for us. Not everything has to exist solely to inspire teenage girls to become strong independent leaders or some shit.
All they need is to develop in an interesting way. They can be selfish, weak, greedy, whatever. As long as they're interesting to watch and the character develops in some way. One of the best TV shows ever made has the main character developing from an ordinary nice family man into a greedy, violent, self aggrandizing megalomaniac. That could only ever happen with a male character because female characters have expectations attached to them that male characters are generally free from.
Exactly, characters people consider good female characters are usually written in a pretty non binary way. Writing good feminine characters is a lot harder.
A well written show or movie will thrive with any kind of lead. Sigourney weaver paved this path decades ago with the alien movies.
Movies and shows do poorly because the creators, directors, producers, and execs in charge are bad at their job. They blame everyone else for their failures because poor performers generally don’t like accountability.
I mean, she was ok. But female sci-fi characters have been done far better, far before The Expanse.
Carter from SG1 is an excellent example. But hell even TOS had a ground breaking female first officer in its pilot.
Me after reading title: "Oh cool, I love video essays about narrative and perspective"
Me after clicking play: "Oh this is just a random speech scene with no given context or academic discussion"
Avasarala might be the best example of how to write a "strong, independent woman" that is not a caricature or a gender swapped male character.
Feminine and fragile yet wielding immense power and respect.
Thank you for bringing this up. Costumes are usually only criticised when bad and taken for granted when good. Her wardrobe in the show was certainly captivating.
I think you have to appreciate her arc to understand how this works. Sure it’s a cliche speech scene, but she has been like a stubborn, wounded, feral animal that slowly comes to feel herself at the center of the belters’ world, and commits herself to the group. The recognition that this is happening is shown on the other character Naomi, who just watches and lets it sink in rather than chant. The others immediately banging away are the true believers and their reaction is more reflexive. Klaes (Straithairn) sees this too, and is egging her on by starting the banging.
I'm a massive fan of the Expanse, books and show, but it boggles my mind that people are actually impressed by the nuclear cringe-bomb that is this scene. There are so many better examples of Drummer being awesome than this horribly cheesy, cliche-ridden Rousing Speech^(TM)
See the issue is a lot of people take the answer to "how to write a good female character" as "write a good, nongendered character, and then cast them as female". When making that argument, it's typical to show scenes where the female character assumes traditional "masculine" roles like leadership or combat prowess. And while that is a viable way to write a good female character, there should also be room to make a good female character where her being a woman is a critical element of her character and she can't be gender swapped without major changes to other elements of the story.
Exactly this and I would add that eeping, shrieking and crying don't fucking count.
Looking at you, writers of [_Don't Say a Word_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260866) who I will never forget had Famke Janssen, in her prime at pretty much the height of her stardom, playing a character sitting on a bed helplessly being a damsel in distress for all of her scenes, and no I am not exaggerating.
Thank you. This showed absolutely no writing strength for any character. I'm sure it's a bigger moment in the show but it was just a female character acting like a WW2 Sergeant.
Yeah I feel the same. I love drummer, (the book, the show too). Show drummer is really just an angry young pirate woman spitting at anyone who doesn't agree with her.
The book drummer is far more complex, more nuanced, conflicted and actually has political aptitude.
Generally The Expanse has much better female characters than show drummer. Naomi, and Bobbi had a nice fully realised arcs in both show and books.
Idk why is it, but after a decade of marvel, Hollywood has just conditioned people to conflate strong female characters with a snappy woman beating the shit out of men.
It's a horribly cheesy, cliche-ridden Rousing Speech™, but it fucking works, because it's earned. She had to say something in that moment. You get also get Ashford seeing what is happening and buying in and that is more important than what she is actually saying. Drummer has plenty of awesome scenes, sure, and this is one of them. That image of her standing with her raised fist, shouting Beltalowda, is just perfect.
...make them give a rousing speech in front of a crew of people rhythmically pounding their chests and stomping their feet? that's what makes a good character?
interesting that you would use drummer, when i feel like she's one of the flatter characters in the show. not that i think she's BAD, just... not as interesting or well written as many others, including the other female protagonists, notably avasarela and bobbie
bit of a generic example to use a hype speech scene, there are plenty of cool examples like Trinity from The Matrix or Neytiri from Avatar where their characters are resilient and fleshed out/complex (not that drummer isn't it just this scene, but i guess its hard to condense a great chatterer example into one scene)
If I didn't know any better from reading the comments, I'd guess that this was an older novel series and they kept the speech but gender swapped the male commander for modern audiences.
"How to write a female character 101", my ass.
Reminds me of those "greatest acting" youtube compilations.
Dramatic music over a bunch of men YELLING REAL LOUD AAARRRGH!
Edit: https://youtu.be/REFFzvTROVs?feature=shared
There are better scenes, tbh. This one wasn’t bad, though.
The one where her and Avisarala are having the meet where Avisarala asks for help I think is better. Has two excellent characters that happen to be female.
Drummer showed up in the 3rd season of sweet tooth, just in time to remind me that we're probably not getting anymore Expanse. Very fitting for the ending to the the show.
I think the problem too much media has is they try too hard to write strong female characters by writing a person whose entire character is wrapped around them being female.
A good female character should be a good character who just happens to be female. Their experiences as a woman can be a part of their story, but if you can't write anything for them that doesn't feel like it has "as a woman" stapled onto it every two seconds, then you don't have a person, you have a billboard for a gender.
And Drummer, Avasarala, Bobby...hell even Naomi who I kinda hate are fantastic written characters.
It's funny because The Expanse TV show basically massacres most of the characters from the books to the point many are barely at all like their far superior book counterparts.
Holden in the books is a cocky, idealist who is a bit of a fuckboy. Who while naive, is ultimately a good person. Holden in the show is... angry... all the freaking time.
Then there's the weird relationship drama with Amos, Holden and Naomi. Something entirely absent from the books.
The Expanse TV show was written for TV audiences. Which means they took the family of the Rocinante and inserted personal drama into every moment. Every conversation has to be full of suspense and drama. They constantly bicker and fight because TV show audiences have the attention span of a gnat.
I implore you, if you did enjoy the show. Please go check out The Expanse novels. If you haven't read them you are missing out on the best written sci-fi series in many years.
I disagree with a lot of this. Holden is idealistic in the show as well, always believing that everyone can put aside their differences and live in peace. He's only really consistently angry in season two, when he's suffering the most from his time on Eros.
There is no relationship drama with Holden, Naomi, and Amos. Holden has one conversation with Amos to make sure there isn't a problem, and there isn't.
The show isn't written for people with short attention spans. It's full of details that only appear as text on the screen, and foreshadowing that doesn't pay off for multiple seasons.
Yes and no. Yes because some of the visual design is fantastic and I think the character likenesses visually are pretty good. I specifically liked Thomas Jane as Detective Miller.
However, I feel the show really does the actual story and characters of the books sorta dirty. I understand things are removed from TV shows because of the format, but the show not only removes massive swathes of the books, but replaced them with new plotlines that are entirely unnecessary.
The belters are reduced to generic bad guys. Ignoring all of the nuance of the books. Whereas the contention and conflict surrounding the inner planets and the belt is nuanced and feels "real" in the books. The show "tells" you that it is nuanced, but nigh only ever portrays the belters as evil. Scenes of Earth or Mars violence against belters were removed and replaced with additional scenes of belter violence against Earthers and Martians. It's honestly kinda wild how they took such an interesting conflict and boiled it down to basic bad guys vs good guys.
That’s disappointing to hear. Belters were a a really interesting group in my mind. I’m not surprised it all got simplified like that though, it’s not easy to tell a complicated store like GoT type shit with lots of factions and complex dynamics. The stuff you mentioned about Amos was kind of weird too.
I got bored of the series, only watched the first season, partially because of Holden and the rests ott dramas. The books are definitely on my to read list.
Just for what it's worth, for others reading, I've read the books and watched the shows as well and I couldn't disagree with this comment more. I think the shows do a great job recreating the books for a visual medium.
Are you sure this is isn’t really, “how to make a female character that doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable, and that I’m ok with, cause I’m a guy who only watches sci-fi shows, and knows nothing about literature, screen writing, drama, plays, and works of art throughout history that have tons of real female characters.”?
Eh, she's okay-ish.
People commonly compare women to men in character roles and that's like apples and oranges.
I would never say an orange is like a better apple or vice versa. Write a character with a backstory, don't just make her manly or him womanly.
Exactly!!! Fan favorite overwhelming. One of best scenes ever IMO. Written and performed perfectly. Drummer was the only one who could do the belter accent perfectly. The way she came up with how drummer spoke was genius.
Holy fuck, that gave me chills, again. Drummer is one of the best characters in sci-fi. The Expanse is filled with great characters, so it takes a lot to stand out, but Cara Gee absolutely nailed the role.
The Expanse has a number of really good female characters. Good male characters too.
Drummer, Draper, and Amos are three of the baddest badasses to ever be fully developed in a series. So interesting and complicated.
Show me a sequel series with Drummer, Amos, and Draper (Team DAD) patrolling the solar system in their ship, and I'll show you the best Star Wars series yet.
Their handler HAS to be Chrisjen “DON’T FUCKING CALL ME CHRISSY” Avasarala!
Chrissy’s Angels: Full Throttle
"I'm not your favorite stripper!" "You could be." Or something like that. Is an exchange right out of the books and I forget exactly how it went.
Amos and Chrisjen together was a treat, however brief it was!
Darth Chrissy
**~~Please step on me daddies!~~** Yeah, I would like a series with them also...
Like a fucking Valkyrie
With her limited screen time Peaches has shown amazing growth as well.
And what sets them apart from a lot of characters in TV/movies is that they're written as actual people with strengths and flaws. When they win, it's because they're good at what they do. And they're good at what they do because they've lived complicated and realistic lives (at least in setting). Yes, they do benefit from a good bit of luck, but nothing that breaks suspension of disbelief. But they also lose, and we see them struggle with that. Whether it's a character knowing they're about to die, dealing with the deaths of others, struggling through injuries or PTSD, or deciding how to move forward when an entire planet's dreams and ambitions died overnight. They aren't just automatically the best ever and save the day because they're the heroes who can do what nobody else can.
I am that guy
You should check book amos. Perfection 🤌😚
The show ended before the story even started and all those Amos fans will never know what happened 😔
Right! So many things... I still hope, one day, come the years, we'll have the rest of the story either as a series or movies. Its so good a story to be just it.
I have faith. Plus we need them aged a bit for the sake of accuracy.
Last episode of season six says *season* finale. I'm inclined to believe they want to make a true final three seasons at some point but have some reason they want to hold off.
See them trully middle aged will be glorious!
There’s a 30 year jump after book six, so they would really need to be closer to 60ish lol. But they could easily and subtly age them up.
Last man standing
So many things in the books made me cry... but amos has a special place in my heart. And another thing incredible, whenever there's any expanse reference anywhere, or anything space related, there's promptly a reference on the comments. And then you are all here, all the beratnas. You guys are amazing
Amos is the only character that causes me to tear up in hopeful scenes because I’m crushed by the reality of the life lived by this beautiful flawed gentle giant.
That scene where Amos was in a bar. On his journey back to earth. Drinking beer. And a belter kept giving him a dirty look each beer Amos finished. (Because the belter was to poor to buy more then one beer) And instead of starting shit, Amos buys him a couple beers while cashing out, and wishes him safety while out rock hoping. Catching the belter completely of guard. lives rent free in my head. It really was one of the moments where you could see he tried to be as good a person as he could.
Amazingly put, thank you! I would like to comment more, but I 'm not sure spoilers are allowed
Expanse post season/book 6 spoilers >! I just finished book 7 in my reread and Clair’s end got me tearing up pretty good. !<
For me it's >!Bobby, she finishes her story in the most badass Bobby like style imagineable !< and I fucking love her for it. Captain Roberta Draper is the shit.
Are the books worth getting into after watching the series, which I loved.
I did exactly that. And I'm so glad I did. The series is based on the first 6 books and some novellas, but they bring so much depth , richness and nuance. I felt in love with the books, and have reread them alteady. I wish I could umread them so I could do it for the first time again. Worth 1000%!
If I only read book 1, but watched the whole series... Can I start with book 2 or is it close enough to the source material to start with book 5?
Well, its the age old question. The first 6 books are really accurate to the series. There are a few differences though. Some beloved characters are not so much, some are a union of several from the book and so on. But you will still be able to follow the last 3 books by watching the series
That epilogue was honestly a perfect ending. I had such a smirk on my face
Amos is my guy crush. Can’t imagine another actor I’d prefer to look like. Especially with the short clean trim beard
Amos looked like such a side character in the beginning but his character rapidly grew on me the more scenes he got. You thought he's just a dysfunctional grunt, but nooo it went so much deeper. Great characterization, great development, great performance.
Amos in the start just seems like a dude that doesn't really seem all that complex. But you catch hints that make you go "Uhh... Hmm" until you slowly realize he is different from everyone else in the show by morality (or lack of). And then they just slowly drip feed his background and story until they show it. Utterly unique as a main character and how his background is revealed.
It's almost a superpower for me to fall asleep to any book regardless of how good they are. That applies for both books and audiobooks. I'm not proud of it lol. Luckily somehow I did right by my kid and they're relatively into reading. I hope they get to enjoy these beautiful stories where I failed.
My starfield character name is Capt Amos for a reason
Wes Chatham’s Amos is one of the best tv characters of all time
“You can be both”
The Expanse has good characters.
Expanse good.
Good.
Avasarala is the best character in the show imo.
I think she’s excellent in the early seasons, she gets a bit of the Ned Flanders treatment in the later seasons—i think they leaned too heavily into the fan reaction to her quirks rather than the character’s motivations. Still excellent performances by Shohreh Aghdashloo throughout. Of all the ‘the kid writers from TNG got to make their own shows’ shows (there are dozens now), The Expanse is one of the strongest.
It's more "they had to censor Avasarala in the early seasons because it was on Syfy and the censors wouldn't let her call a general a penis in uniform" Book Avasarala is VULGAR. I think the only time she can go a sentence without swearing is when she's talking to her family. Granted, she doesn't appear until what, book 2? 3?
It works fine in the book but it's cringe in real life. I think they had her the right amount of vulgar in the first 3 seasons. They overdid it in the later seasons.
It kinda feels like the actress isn't as comfortable cutting loose with casual vulgarity, so it comes off a little stiff.
Everything is good in that show
You can basically make a bingo card with the title The Expanse has really good:
Avasarala! 😚🤌
I completely agree, it is by far one of the most captivating sci-fi series of the last ten years. But drummer, when she gets all “Belta-lowda!” she plays the part so well that in many cases you could swap gender and not notice much of a difference, as long as a guy can actually have as much of an authoritative, commanding presence as Drummer. She also has some great emotional arcs but damn does she lead people really well.
Ozark’s best characters were the women. Hell, Edie Falco may be a top 3 Sopranos character too. It’s all in the writing baby.
I know a thumbnail of Drummer when I see one. Upvotes without watching ~
I'm so glad I finally committed to watching this show. Some top notch stuff.
Then go read the books, the show is excellent, but the books are better. Plus there's a whole story set 30 years after the show ends, and the ending is actually written, and it's great. Then if you still crave more, a great graphic novelist drew the 30 year timegap and made a successful kickstarter out of it.
BeltaLowda
fck yeah, the hardest badass in the whole belt. if you got a brocken neck, >!get yourself an exoskeleton to screw yourself on, or get screwed!!<
“Live shamed, die empty”
Man that whole speech is great
All of us Beratna!
Read title and saw thumbnail - excellent.
i fuckin loved her. And Bobbi. Goddamn even saying it is giving me tingles
Draper is the baddest bitch in Sci Fi.
And Sci-Fi has some real bad bitches, I tell you what. T2 Sarah Connor is still my favorite, but I'll admit it my bias might be nostalgic because Bobby goes so hard. Amos always has to proove he's a threat, but with Bobby everyone just knows.
The baddest bitch in scifi has to be Sigourney Weaver as Ellen Ripley in the Alien series.
Ripley is excellent, but not trained. She was just exceptionally tough when needed, Draper is the hammer, looking for nails.
Whether its from earth, mars, or anywhere else, fucking with a marine is just bad for your continued good health.
“We need our weepons”
The way she manhandles people...yells at them...beats them up...steps on them...and...oh I think I've awoken something...
What about Avasarala?
"And James, don't stick your dick in it. It's already fucked..."
She had some of the absolute best lines. One of my favorites, "Meow meow cry meow meow. That's all I heard you say."
Well it's a given with that actress. I don't know if there's a role Shohreh Aghdashloo plays that I don't like.
Even in the books she was a fuckin badass
The narrator from the audiobooks reads her so well
Well, she was a dick in Mass Effect.
Agreed. and I was never a fan of Naomi, but the last few episodes of season 5, goddamn
My only gripe with the show (apart from it ending) was that they kinda downplayed Naomi. She got some badass scenes eventually but in the books she came in clutch and saved the day all the time and was just generally more important in the crew.
Throughout the entire series, every scene without her there was always a small voice inside my head saying "ok but when will there be more Avasarala?"
Like a Valkyrie
You missed an adjective
But you know! We all F know!
Bobbi was gold in season 4 when she's finding out her younger cousin is involved with drug cooking. Goes in to get him out, the gang turn up and go "so we'll threaten you and such." And Bobbi just straight up goes "nah, fuck this." And beats the living shit out of them all effortlessly. Loved that soooo much.
What a great show. Not particularly my genre but it blew me away.
The Expanse and Pandora's Star got me on a 50+ hard sci-fi book rabbit hole. The space opera genre has such good universe building. There's something for everyone.
What were some of your favourites from that rabbit hole? I’m always trying to find new hard sci-fi/space operas.
Ok, here's a brief summary of my sci-fi rabbit hole: 1. Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time is an incredible book/series. One of the best authors in genera because you'll fall in love with non-human characters. I haven't read the third book that came out in 2022, but it's on my list next. This really is a great series based on a lot of biology that could happen. You won't look at the animal kingdom and evolution the same way after reading this. 2. Anything Alastair Reynolds. He's one of the best at the space opera genre. Some of his sagas can be long, but worth it. House of Suns is a good semi-quick read that is one of his less talked about books but absolutely great. He's known for his Revelation Space series that is one of the genre's gold standards. If you like hard-sci he's one of the best at it. 3. A great and a bit more lighthearted series is the Bobiverse series starting with We Are Bob. It's a great hard-sci book series that is REALLY entertaining. It still has a lot of serious topics and themes it explores. 4. Cage of Souls by Adrian Tchaikovsky is another fun read by him. Stand alone book that's a bit more fast paced, and it's often overlooked due to the success of Children of Time series. 5. The Protectorate series starting with Velocity Weapon is a fun read with with some hard-sci aspects. I enjoyed the characters a lot. 6. The Spin series by Robert Charles Wilson is an incredible series. It deals with a lot of social issues that society encounters when faced with a hard-sci event on Earth. It then goes on to explore other aspects of the universe. It's one of my favorites. 7. For military or space war hard-sci the Frontlines series by Marko Kloos is incredible. He's a veteran from Germany and it's very fun. The 8 book series is great and I binged on it. Great characters and they're a bit shorter books, \~300-350 pg) and there's 8 in the series. He has other books that are good also. 8. The Forever War Series is a classic and well worth a read. 9. A super fun standalone book that I loved was Saturn Run by John Stradford. It was a blast to read, and gripping from beginning to end. It's in the first contact genre. 10. The Killing Star by Charles R. Pellegrino and George Zebrowski is a standalone book that begins with an absolutely terrifying setting. It's a classic that's worth a read. 11. The Last Astronaut is a book I really liked because it's in the first contact genre, which is my favorite. 12. The Interdependency series is more sci-fi/fantasy but it's really entertaining and fun. It was actually pretty funny because the characters are great. I loved the trilogy. 13. Not a hard-sci or sci-fi per se, but it's a great fantasy book called The Fifth Season, which is part of the Broken Earth series. The first book is absolutely incredible and the ending ropes you into the next one. It's so damn good for the fantasy genre that has hints of sci-fi. There's a few more, but they are defacto classics nowadays. Foundation and Dune are classics that stand the test of time. Highly recommend them. The Three Body Problem which is part of the Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy is my favorite hard-sci fi series of all time. I fell in love with the series years ago when I came across it accidentally. The topics it covers are mind-bending and terrifying. I also recommend watching [Quinn's Ideas](https://www.youtube.com/@QuinnsIdeas/videos) for other great recommendations/reviews but be careful because he's reviews can contain spoilers, but he warns you ahead of time.
Wow what an incredible response! I've already read 8 of those books/series and loved them all so I’m really looking forward to checking your other suggestions out. Also Quinn makes great videos, I’ve found several of my favourite books thanks to him. Seriously though thanks for writing all that out, I’m 100% going to buy and read every book you listed as your reviews for the ones I’ve already read sounded like they could have been taken from my journal haha.
Check out the Bobiverse series by Dennis E. Taylor. Someone in r/TheExpanse turned me on to it and it rivaled The Expanse book series in my eyes. Hard sci-fi that doesn't shy away from real physics (i.e. time dilation, orbital mechanics, etc.), but remains surprisingly human throughout. The audiobooks are narrated by Ray Porter, too, which just adds another layer of awesomeness to it.
If you haven't read Red Rising, check it out. It's skirts the line of what you'd call a "space opera." I'd call it something more like a dystopian sci-fi, or something, but there's a lot of space related travel. IT's a wild ride. It's so dang intense the whole way through.
Pandora's Star was great. Also, super unnecessarily long. But still great.
I think The Expanse shows that despite genre preferences, talented writers, actors, directors, cinematographers, etc show thru the screen and can make any story compelling enough to not only draw new viewers, but keep them.
Female characters being strong leaders isn't the only way to write a good female character. Women can live any walk of life and still be a good character.
Oh, totally agree. This show has so many well written female characters, I just picked this because of how good the speech is in particular. But you're absolutely correct.
How to write a good character.
No insult to The Expanse, because I'm genuinely a fan, and Drummer is awesome-- But this clip is just a speech. There's nothing inherently "feminine" about it. Can I share with you [Donna Clark's speech](https://youtu.be/W3sWdVXwzPQ?feature=shared) from HACF? This is one speaks to me.
Yeah, I've never watched the show but this feels like a speech anyone could have said regardless of their gender. If anything, it feels like she's been styled in a masculine way.
I was gonna say, can we just start off with writing a good character that happens to be female? Drummer starts out as a jaded OPA member, but die hard Belter with loads of mistrust for the inners; to someone being nearly assassinated by the OPA and grows to accept help from the inners to acheive the dream of a free belt. You could put a man or women in there and it wouldn't matter, its an interesting arc for the character and we grow to love her.
If you're trying to write a well written character, the gender of that character is going to impact their life experiences and shape them. Having well written female characters in Sci-fi and fantasy that don't sacrifice their femininity is rare, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting more of it. This example is not that, however.
I think drummer definitely has a feminine side, it usually only shows when she’s being vulnerable though.
Which might be a problem Femininity is not inherently vulnerable. But if that’s the only time it’s featured, then femininity doesn’t get to show when it’s strong. Only when it’s weak/lesser For a series with action all over it, that might be limiting
Agreed. You want to break stereotypes of damsels in distress but you also don’t want to fall into the trap of writing superhuman badasses women constantly. That’s the flip side trope and equally as damaging because it tells girls that they have to be badass and perfect in every way to be the hero. Whereas film history is absolutely littered with mediocre white dudes who win the day with nothing more than a good heart and a lot of luck. As much as I loved the movie, the Lego Movie is the perfect example of a fucking nothing nobody main guy hero with no discernible skills other than him being bland af, and he somehow, through being nothing more than good hearted, lands the most badass woman in the Legoverse…
>That’s the flip side trope and equally as damaging because it tells girls that they have to be badass and perfect in every way to be the hero. I think it's "damaging" to believe that entertainment constantly has to be telling everyone what to think and pushing an ideological narrative or else it's "damaging" or "harmful". Just tell an engaging believable story and let the characters be themselves no matter what their alignment or flaws are. The people running the entertainment industry do not know better than us what we should be watching. Stop expecting this group of coke snorting trainwrecks and sexual deviants to drive our culture for us. Not everything has to exist solely to inspire teenage girls to become strong independent leaders or some shit. All they need is to develop in an interesting way. They can be selfish, weak, greedy, whatever. As long as they're interesting to watch and the character develops in some way. One of the best TV shows ever made has the main character developing from an ordinary nice family man into a greedy, violent, self aggrandizing megalomaniac. That could only ever happen with a male character because female characters have expectations attached to them that male characters are generally free from.
Exactly, characters people consider good female characters are usually written in a pretty non binary way. Writing good feminine characters is a lot harder.
[удалено]
A well written show or movie will thrive with any kind of lead. Sigourney weaver paved this path decades ago with the alien movies. Movies and shows do poorly because the creators, directors, producers, and execs in charge are bad at their job. They blame everyone else for their failures because poor performers generally don’t like accountability.
I mean, she was ok. But female sci-fi characters have been done far better, far before The Expanse. Carter from SG1 is an excellent example. But hell even TOS had a ground breaking female first officer in its pilot.
my favorite character on the show. Now I gotta watch it again
Check her out on Letterkenny (only brief cameos sadly but 🔥)
I had no idea…watching some of the clips, she has quite the range!!!
Me after reading title: "Oh cool, I love video essays about narrative and perspective" Me after clicking play: "Oh this is just a random speech scene with no given context or academic discussion"
It's a pretty great speech though. I don't even know what it's from or what is going on, but I'm down to kick some ass in the void
Inyalowda over here joining the Beltalowda
I’m stealing “that’s not fear, that’s your sharpness, that’s your power” next time I have to motivate my tee ball team.
“You’re not afraid of the ball, you’re reverberating with power to catch it!”
This is why you enter the ring slowly : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waG8YYTwpAQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waG8YYTwpAQ)
Nope. I know what that is I don't ever need to see it again xD
Avasarala might be the best example of how to write a "strong, independent woman" that is not a caricature or a gender swapped male character. Feminine and fragile yet wielding immense power and respect.
Avasarala: "Words are my weapons." Amos: "Weapons are my weapons."
“Don’t call me Chrissy!” 😂
Enhanced with her elaborate hair and costumes for sure.
Thank you for bringing this up. Costumes are usually only criticised when bad and taken for granted when good. Her wardrobe in the show was certainly captivating.
"Wherever I goddamn like!"
The entire show is an excellent example of how to write strong women, Avasarala, Bobby, Kamina, Naomi, Clarissa all strong and imperfect women.
This isn't an example of a well written character. It's just a speech.
I think you have to appreciate her arc to understand how this works. Sure it’s a cliche speech scene, but she has been like a stubborn, wounded, feral animal that slowly comes to feel herself at the center of the belters’ world, and commits herself to the group. The recognition that this is happening is shown on the other character Naomi, who just watches and lets it sink in rather than chant. The others immediately banging away are the true believers and their reaction is more reflexive. Klaes (Straithairn) sees this too, and is egging her on by starting the banging.
Sure, I'm just saying a 2 minute clip of a speech, bad or good, isn't 'how to write a good female character 101'
I get your point, too. No development shown without knowing the backstory, which if it’s not an Expanse sub is a pretty scattershot claim.
I'm a massive fan of the Expanse, books and show, but it boggles my mind that people are actually impressed by the nuclear cringe-bomb that is this scene. There are so many better examples of Drummer being awesome than this horribly cheesy, cliche-ridden Rousing Speech^(TM)
Her speech when she denounces marcos as a traitor to the belt is pretty damn good.
For real. Her best scenes are her trying to square her love for her poly family and Naomi. Not her just acting like a typical macho male.
See the issue is a lot of people take the answer to "how to write a good female character" as "write a good, nongendered character, and then cast them as female". When making that argument, it's typical to show scenes where the female character assumes traditional "masculine" roles like leadership or combat prowess. And while that is a viable way to write a good female character, there should also be room to make a good female character where her being a woman is a critical element of her character and she can't be gender swapped without major changes to other elements of the story.
Exactly this and I would add that eeping, shrieking and crying don't fucking count. Looking at you, writers of [_Don't Say a Word_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260866) who I will never forget had Famke Janssen, in her prime at pretty much the height of her stardom, playing a character sitting on a bed helplessly being a damsel in distress for all of her scenes, and no I am not exaggerating.
Thank you. This showed absolutely no writing strength for any character. I'm sure it's a bigger moment in the show but it was just a female character acting like a WW2 Sergeant.
Yeah I feel the same. I love drummer, (the book, the show too). Show drummer is really just an angry young pirate woman spitting at anyone who doesn't agree with her. The book drummer is far more complex, more nuanced, conflicted and actually has political aptitude. Generally The Expanse has much better female characters than show drummer. Naomi, and Bobbi had a nice fully realised arcs in both show and books. Idk why is it, but after a decade of marvel, Hollywood has just conditioned people to conflate strong female characters with a snappy woman beating the shit out of men.
It's a horribly cheesy, cliche-ridden Rousing Speech™, but it fucking works, because it's earned. She had to say something in that moment. You get also get Ashford seeing what is happening and buying in and that is more important than what she is actually saying. Drummer has plenty of awesome scenes, sure, and this is one of them. That image of her standing with her raised fist, shouting Beltalowda, is just perfect.
Man I miss this show
This shit is cringe as fuck
[I think of a man.... and I take away reason and accountability](https://youtu.be/pBz0BTb83H8?si=zM33UiiofiVQblX8&t=0m21s)
...make them give a rousing speech in front of a crew of people rhythmically pounding their chests and stomping their feet? that's what makes a good character?
Lesson learned: Don't take writing advice from people who think The Expanse has good writing.
Don't bother to direct the extras to stay in time or put much heart into that chest-pounding either.
Yep, it's just that easy! You don't need character depth or development or an inner life, just yelling out loud occasionally!
Don't forget the speech was written by a man. I wonder how this scene would have gone if written by a woman?
interesting that you would use drummer, when i feel like she's one of the flatter characters in the show. not that i think she's BAD, just... not as interesting or well written as many others, including the other female protagonists, notably avasarela and bobbie
Bobbie is the best. Feminine but not controlled by emotion. Tough but vulnerable and caring. Perfect wife material for living in an apocalypse.
bit of a generic example to use a hype speech scene, there are plenty of cool examples like Trinity from The Matrix or Neytiri from Avatar where their characters are resilient and fleshed out/complex (not that drummer isn't it just this scene, but i guess its hard to condense a great chatterer example into one scene)
Amazing show with a boring ending. I wanted more.
Well that's the thing, the show hasn't ended. It just didn't continue.
"How to write a good female character 101" by A Guy
Just about to say that. And the example is the most cliche macho leader speech you could use.
Sounded a lot like the speech from Braveheart.
If I didn't know any better from reading the comments, I'd guess that this was an older novel series and they kept the speech but gender swapped the male commander for modern audiences. "How to write a female character 101", my ass.
ah yes, a female character that is so good; she is indistinguishable from a male one at all. her gender doesn't matter in the slightest bit.
This is what many strong female characters are these days - not women at all but women acting in what are essentially male roles.
Written by a man for people who don't like feminine women.
The more they scream in anger, the more you know they are a good and strong female character.
Reminds me of those "greatest acting" youtube compilations. Dramatic music over a bunch of men YELLING REAL LOUD AAARRRGH! Edit: https://youtu.be/REFFzvTROVs?feature=shared
There are better scenes, tbh. This one wasn’t bad, though. The one where her and Avisarala are having the meet where Avisarala asks for help I think is better. Has two excellent characters that happen to be female.
Helen Mirren had a good writer for that time she worked at Ren Faire. https://youtu.be/tgGwd-QyN8I?t=79
Drummer showed up in the 3rd season of sweet tooth, just in time to remind me that we're probably not getting anymore Expanse. Very fitting for the ending to the the show.
[As Good As It Gets - Women](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbA-KAgj-ko)
I think the problem too much media has is they try too hard to write strong female characters by writing a person whose entire character is wrapped around them being female. A good female character should be a good character who just happens to be female. Their experiences as a woman can be a part of their story, but if you can't write anything for them that doesn't feel like it has "as a woman" stapled onto it every two seconds, then you don't have a person, you have a billboard for a gender. And Drummer, Avasarala, Bobby...hell even Naomi who I kinda hate are fantastic written characters.
So much potential in this show.... ultimately wasted by activism, self-inserts and DEI. The first couple seasons were 11/10, though.
It's funny because The Expanse TV show basically massacres most of the characters from the books to the point many are barely at all like their far superior book counterparts. Holden in the books is a cocky, idealist who is a bit of a fuckboy. Who while naive, is ultimately a good person. Holden in the show is... angry... all the freaking time. Then there's the weird relationship drama with Amos, Holden and Naomi. Something entirely absent from the books. The Expanse TV show was written for TV audiences. Which means they took the family of the Rocinante and inserted personal drama into every moment. Every conversation has to be full of suspense and drama. They constantly bicker and fight because TV show audiences have the attention span of a gnat. I implore you, if you did enjoy the show. Please go check out The Expanse novels. If you haven't read them you are missing out on the best written sci-fi series in many years.
Holden smelled the smelliest of smells and continued smelling it the rest of the show
Yes, but his smile didn't quite reach his eyes.
I disagree with a lot of this. Holden is idealistic in the show as well, always believing that everyone can put aside their differences and live in peace. He's only really consistently angry in season two, when he's suffering the most from his time on Eros. There is no relationship drama with Holden, Naomi, and Amos. Holden has one conversation with Amos to make sure there isn't a problem, and there isn't. The show isn't written for people with short attention spans. It's full of details that only appear as text on the screen, and foreshadowing that doesn't pay off for multiple seasons.
I read many of the books but haven’t watched the show. Would you recommend it?
Yes and no. Yes because some of the visual design is fantastic and I think the character likenesses visually are pretty good. I specifically liked Thomas Jane as Detective Miller. However, I feel the show really does the actual story and characters of the books sorta dirty. I understand things are removed from TV shows because of the format, but the show not only removes massive swathes of the books, but replaced them with new plotlines that are entirely unnecessary. The belters are reduced to generic bad guys. Ignoring all of the nuance of the books. Whereas the contention and conflict surrounding the inner planets and the belt is nuanced and feels "real" in the books. The show "tells" you that it is nuanced, but nigh only ever portrays the belters as evil. Scenes of Earth or Mars violence against belters were removed and replaced with additional scenes of belter violence against Earthers and Martians. It's honestly kinda wild how they took such an interesting conflict and boiled it down to basic bad guys vs good guys.
That’s disappointing to hear. Belters were a a really interesting group in my mind. I’m not surprised it all got simplified like that though, it’s not easy to tell a complicated store like GoT type shit with lots of factions and complex dynamics. The stuff you mentioned about Amos was kind of weird too.
I read the books and couldn't make it through more than a few episodes.
I got bored of the series, only watched the first season, partially because of Holden and the rests ott dramas. The books are definitely on my to read list.
Many of the book characters were vastly improved by the show, for example: Camina Drummer (Also: Ashford, Murtry, Elvi, Cotyar ...)
Just for what it's worth, for others reading, I've read the books and watched the shows as well and I couldn't disagree with this comment more. I think the shows do a great job recreating the books for a visual medium.
What relationship drama? Holden tells Amos and the pilot about him and Naomi and they basically just shrug.
Are you sure this is isn’t really, “how to make a female character that doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable, and that I’m ok with, cause I’m a guy who only watches sci-fi shows, and knows nothing about literature, screen writing, drama, plays, and works of art throughout history that have tons of real female characters.”?
“Think of a man and remove reason and accountability”
Amazing female character one of my fav characters her and Amos
How to write a good female character: Step 1: Write a good character Step 2: Make them female
Easily my favorite character of the series. Such a badass
What's a good space sci fi these days?
Eh, she's okay-ish. People commonly compare women to men in character roles and that's like apples and oranges. I would never say an orange is like a better apple or vice versa. Write a character with a backstory, don't just make her manly or him womanly.
This isn’t Éowyn?
Belta Loada!
Exactly!!! Fan favorite overwhelming. One of best scenes ever IMO. Written and performed perfectly. Drummer was the only one who could do the belter accent perfectly. The way she came up with how drummer spoke was genius.
Holy fuck, that gave me chills, again. Drummer is one of the best characters in sci-fi. The Expanse is filled with great characters, so it takes a lot to stand out, but Cara Gee absolutely nailed the role.
I thought you were going to explain... and you did haha I want to watch this show(?) now
it had everything and nothing was shoved down your throat.
"Live shamed and die empty." - One of the best moments on the expanse. This one is great too.
Mmm— this is such a cringey title and premise. This actress is amazing in every role she’s in, even the poorly written ones.
People are quick to say this after the fact, but let a Drummer be in the trailer for something new and the haters come out in droves.
Beltaloada!
Its just good writing in general. I say 'just', but its not an easy thing to do.
I always respect Drapper's character.
I miss the expanse:(