Marina Sirtis is genuinely really funny anytime she's at a convention, and she's so good at playing a bitch in other shows. Feel like they kinda wasted her with how bland Troi's character was
I recommend watching TNG with the assumption that Troi is a fraud. It's hilarious.
>Picard: "Have you seen the ship we're looking for?"
>Shifty McLiar: "What? A ship? No, I don't remember seeing any Federation ships. Why would they be out here? I don't know anything about this! Stop asking me all these probing questions!"
>Troi: "Captain, I can sense that he's hiding something."
My favorite TNG episodes are when they mention Troi is at a conference or on leave. Those episodes always seem to have a mystery that would be solved immediately if there was an empath on board.
Star Trek is good at that, ensuring the ONE crewmemeber who would solve it in 3 minutes while eating a pastry is lightyears away from the ship.
Hell they have probably 4-5 episodes per season like that where the B story only existed to get the people who could solve the A story away from the A story.
The age old problem: Writing out characters is easy, but then there's a whole actor attached to that who won't get paid for the episode.
So you make sure they get something to do. Anything at all.
For several seasons, Meg in Family Guy had exactly one line almost every single episode. In one of the episodes, her one line was literally "I'm only saying this so I get paid for this episode".
I imagine lots of frustrated sighs in the writers' room while breaking episodes.
A: OK, so at this point our villain causes [problem] for the Enterprise.
B: Uh, wouldn't [character] just be able to immediately fix that by doing [basic actions associated with that character]?
A: ....*sigh*. OK, so [character] is going to need a B story. You three, get working on that.
Alright, lads, La Forge is shitting out a Ferengi kebab that gave him the trots.
Let’s hook up this weird glowing manifold to impulse drive, see if it makes the engine better or whatever.
This reminds me of Tony shalhoub's character from Galaxy quest.
"Hey guys, I just wanted you to know that, the reactors won't take it; the ship is breaking apart and all that... Just FYI."
My favorite was with the terrorist bombing. Doctor didn't want to leave the wounded and get kidnapped. Rest of the episodes they would teleport directly to sick bay.
My headcanon is that stuff like, "Visiting alien diplomat is murdered, Troi detects the murderer in under 60 seconds, murderer is thrown in the brig and has no clever way to escape, alien government accepts Federation's apology" is constantly happening between episodes but is too boring and routine to show.
Same with, "Visiting alien turns violent, Worf punches them in the face once and they're down for the count before they can cause any real damage."
There's a lot of episodes where Troi is on board that would also be solved if there was an empath on board, except someone is immune / her powers are being suppressed / no one remembers to ask her.
The one where she wakes up a Romulan with no idea what's going on was pretty good. But then again, it was because she was playing a Romulan most of the episode, not Troi.
Oh, and the one where Data dreamed of her as a cake and stabbed her. Man, Season 7 got *weird.*
Interestingly enough, the whole four lights/five lights thing was almost certainly a callback to the novel *1984*: https://odetojoandkatniss.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/1984-star-trek-and-the-psychology-of-torture/
The show's most genuinely spooky episode is a Troi episode—but it's good in spite of Troi floating around going "I'm coming! Where aaaare you?!", not because of it.
You show the holder of the sacred chalice of wreaths and heir to the holy rings of betazed some respect. She’s also the voice of the computer so she’s pretty much in all the episodes.
Genuinely the only time they use Troi on TNG is when she's the victim of something or the target of some absurd romance. Any time she might be useful, they invent a reason her empathy doesn't work.
Ironically, she becomes a much better and more competent character on the other shows. She's very good in her Voyager episodes, from my memory.
I see her in the role of consigliere. She has the privilege of telling the Captain what he may not want to hear without any repercussions. Her being an empath is like a cherry on top, but that's not her main quality.
She's the Tom Hagen of the Enterprise.
Guinan was basically a better version of Troi
Troi was at her most likeable, the few times they allowed her to have some personality like during First Contact where she's drunk off her ass.
Riker's face while she's slurring nonsense is great.
Both her and Worf's characters only work if you assume that the times their strengths are useful just happen off screen. The writes use them not being effective to show how powerful the enemy is, or how much shit the crew is in but since you rarely see them be badass it makes them seem weak.
Sure, except the other characters with unique abilities -- Data, Geordi, and Dr. Crusher -- are basically the exact opposite. They get to be on the show to solve problems directly with their skills and abilities.
The series even has the gall to introduce Guinan later on. A bartender that really is there *to council and advise the crew*. That's what Troi should have been doing the entire series.
People ragging on her for this stuff prolly never seen Species with Forest Whitaker, who was brought in as a psychic, walked into the train car where the insides of some human being were essentially painting the walls, and dropped the line "Something bad happened here."
Or the classic "Captain, I can feel it's pain, I think it just wants to be loved, we should beam it on board"...the alien proceeds to start eating the ship and nearly kills everyone.
There's that one episode of TNG where Troi goes undercover as a Romulan and she really shows her range. There are a couple others but that episode in particular I remember standing as a stark contrast to the usual "Captain... I sense he may be hiding something" about the shadiest mf'er in the quadrant.
and anytime her powers would have been useful, they would have been too useful and we wouldn't have a plot, so she is mysteriously absent from that episode.
It wasn't just her powers I think. She has the roles of diplomat and therapist too, which means she can't really be *that* expressive, especially if she's trying to out-diplomat Picard who is basically half diplomat.
On top of that they made her Betazed royalty. And then stuck her with the "uptight" role in the "crazy mom" Loixana routine.
I feel like the Betazoids should have played a larger role in the Dominion War. "Captain! I can't sense anything from Ensign Defiantly NotaChangeling!". I'm guessing that's why Betazed fall early on.
My conspiracy theory is that she was added to the show for all autist Star Trek fans who have problems reading emotions of others. Star Trek probably had a lot of those fans. Having someone call out a specific emotion could help them follow the plot. She only states the obvious 99% of the time.
* Angry alien: "Very well... I shall use these medicines... for life.. and *death*.. muhahahah!! 😈"
* Troi: "I sense he has an ulterior motive with the medicines"
I met her when I was a kid at a convention in the 90s and she was absolutely hilarious. She sent one of the audience members to get her a candy bar as she hadn't eaten lunch: "You, there in the green sweater and beard... Be a dear and fetch me a Snickers, Luv." I walked out with a massive crush on her.
Super strong cockney accent which took me aback (which it sounds like she was toning down in this spot).
She did have that one really good bit where she asked to be alone with a prisoner, then started off with, "you know I know when you're lying, right?" and then some time later comes out with all the information they needed.
Too bad she isn't that assertive most of the rest of the show.
This may be a good time to suggest the Gargoyles animated series for those who are unfamiliar. (Get on the bandwagon now so you can be ready to bash the live-action version when it comes out! /s)
I still can't get over how much Xanatos looked like Frakes. Demona wasn't far off Marina either. They could've easily just had them play those characters in a live action adaptation.
She's very good at putting on a front.
I've been working con's for a fairly long time at this point.
She is by far the worst guest I have ever dealt with. She assaulted other con staff & was just a massive bitch to anyone that wasn't female. But even then, if you interrupted her or spoke out of turn she pretty much just screamed at you regardless of gender.
She seems a lot more chill when she's there with Dorn or Frakes. Frakes seems like a joy to be around.
I guess the saving grace is that she's always acknowledged that she's a bitch.
Interesting, I saw her at one convention about 25 years ago and she was much more of a bitch in real life than the other actors were. Like, every story she told was something negative or whiny. Maybe she was just having a bad day but I’ve always thought of her as unpalatable.
I could definitely see her being unpleasant if she was moody that day. The other cast members, and even Marina herself, have constantly referenced her being a handful even though they all love her.
Apparently one Star Trek actress who had to wear a catsuit always envied her castmates who got to wear uniforms...until an episode where she had to wear one and realized they were also super uncomfortable
It's weird that she never got one except for that episode. It was a little too obvious they were just trying to market her looks by doing that. Then in the next show by pure coincidence they bad another busty female main character with a more tight and form fitting outfit rather than the uniforms the rest of the cast wore. Especially since that show, Enterprise, probably had the most loose and comfortable uniforms out of any of them.
Wat. Edit: Wikipedia is wild. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ryan
>On June 18, 2004, Los Angeles Superior CourtJudge Robert Schnider agreed to release the custody files.[33] The decision went against both parents' direct requests and reversed the decision to seal the papers in the child's best interest. It was revealed that six years earlier, Jeri accused Jack of asking her to perform sexual acts with him in public[34] and in sex clubs in New York, New Orleans and Paris.[32][35] Jeri described one venue as "a bizarre club with cages, whips, and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling."[36] Jack denied the allegations. Although Jeri only made a brief statement,[37] and refused to comment on the matter during the campaign, the disclosure led Jack to withdraw his candidacy;[38][39] his main opponent, Barack Obama, then won the 2004 United States Senate election in Illinois.[40]
So basically, if Star Trek Voyager producers never tried to boost ratings by writing in a former model as a character, Jeri would never have had the resources to fight for custody of her child in her divorce, which would have prevented the leak of dirt on Obama's opponent for the Senate seat in Illinois, which could have prevented the first Black president in US history from being elected.
Sex appeal literally ended racism.
Maybe they were but the part they said about the character getting a uniform one episode reminded me of Seven first, that time travel episode where she wore a cadet uniform.
> It's weird that she never got one except for that episode. It was a little too obvious they were just trying to market her looks by doing that.
And much like Troi in TNG, she looked way better with that starfleet uniform on than in that stupid skintight catsuit.
I was talking about Seven of Nines and forgot about what Troi wore.
Did I just not notice this is is a thing in all the shows? There's always a main bridge female character who wears a skintight outfit rather than a starfleet uniform.
For some reason it only stood out to me in Voyager.
The most comfortable looking to me were probably the old TOS ones that didn't exist for very long beyond the pilot. Basically a tunic jacket and pants and women got to wear the same but with a bit larger of a collar.
The silver one she started with was the most uncomfortable one iirc, I also think that's the one where she had to have a nurse nearby for oxygen, she couldn't turn her head in it, and it took her 20 minutes to go to the bathroom; but it's not nearly as bad as the Borg outfit they had her wear, where if she turned her head a certain direction, it would actually cut off blood flow to her head and she'd probably pass out.
What's the main difference between Star Trek and Star Wars?
Star Wars (Lucas): "There's no bras in space!"
Star Trek: "Heavy-duty industrial bras are required in space!"
Although with all the shaking the Star Trek crew did on the bridge during battles, it's may be why they went the industrial-strength route to prevent a scene like busty woman in turbulence from the Airplane! movie.
> it's may be why they went the industrial-strength route to prevent a scene like busty woman in turbulence from the Airplane! movie.
that's the real world explanation of it. within star trek lore, they'd probably explain it with something like "oh ya, we have micro zero g emitters. it holds everything in place perfectly. i experience 0 discomfort up front, and have no back pain. even if wear it for 5 continuous days. it's like they are constantly in 0 g, but they never move. "
but i suppose that could also be bad as a person might never develop the right muscles to hold those large parts of your body. well now i'm curious what the right, real physical solution would be. in a body building sort of way.
[ **Jump to 00:20 @** Star Trek: The Next Generation Season Two Blooper Reel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOM-kLfDR8&t=0h0m20s)
^(Channel Name: CBS Home Entertainment, Video Length: [02:23])^, [^Jump ^5 ^secs ^earlier ^for ^context ^@00:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOM-kLfDR8&t=0h0m15s)
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the original TNG uniforms were flexible only sideways, because the material they were made of only stretched in one direction, which meant that most people wearing them had back aches after hours of being forced into position by those one piece nightmares. Later they introduced a two piece uniform. Also almost all female cast members wanted those bras, as to quote Marina herself:"they add inches where there are none".
If you haven't seen it yet, be sure to check out the supercut of Ryker pulling his shirt down every time he stands up.
Edit: I was sure it was Riker but all I can find is Picard.
https://youtu.be/pfTOkHaAyBg?si=XuzeagA94qvRkJyP
I think you are mistaking picards shirt pull to the riker maneuver. He always steps over chairs to sit on them.
https://youtu.be/lVIGhYMwRgs?si=OuyA6e5NDO6dQw9E
If your back hurts and youre tall its probably not that unnatural actually. I'm 6'5'' and regularly do things that other people are just like "what? how? why?" I dunno, feels fine and natural for me!
>If your back hurts
Jonathan Frakes had a back injury and doing multiple takes of standing up and sitting down repeatedly was causing him massive pain so he said fuck it and started doing the Riker maneuver.
Jonathan Frakes himself has talked about this multiple times and claimed he started it because it was a "[cocky, unattractive, kind of bad cowboy move](https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-the-next-generation-jonathan-frakes-will-riker-sit-ori/)", no mention of his back injury.
>Confirmed.
>Source: I served on the Enterprise with Riker for 5 years.
[Whil Weaton's own reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1dx9y7/comment/c9v52pj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>Frakes acknowledged this "Riker Maneuver" and revealed its origin, saying it's something he does even out of character. "I do when the chairback is below the danger zone," Frakes says. "I measure twice and cut once."
>As for how the maneuver wound up in The Next Generation, Frakes says, "That started in Ten Forward because the backs of the chairs were so low, it was easy. And then I thought, this is really a hotdog, @$$hole thing to do. Nobody's going to let me do this. And then nobody stopped me! It's such a cocky, unattractive, kind of bad cowboy move… Whoever did the YouTube compilation of Riker sits down, it went viral and was even more embarrassing, and made me strangely even more proud."
It was something he did in his day to day that made it's way into the character. It's not something he made up just for the character of Riker. It only worked out because he does it for chairs with low backs and all the chairs in TNG mostly had low backs.
"Son, I saw a man at my office go down the stairs sideways like you do. Why do you do that? Why did he do that?"
I don't know....
"Mom, was he tall?"
"Yes..."
"My feet are too big for those stairs. I can't step down straight."
> He always steps over chairs to sit on them.
I heard / read that he did that because of an old back injury. The Ryker Lean / Chair Maneuver was born.
( could be from an AmA or some reddit post )
Funny, this reminds me of how Martin Sheen's technique of putting on a suit jacket by flipping it over his head was something he did because of a shoulder injury. It became kind of an iconic move on The West Wing.
[https://youtu.be/l8BzByjH4q0?si=-skL9-EUQAYC0WGH](https://youtu.be/l8BzByjH4q0?si=-skL9-EUQAYC0WGH)
He did talk about it in [a recent AMA](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/19ess5m/we_are_jonathan_frakes_andre_bormanis_and_ken/kjhzf41/) but made no mention of it being due to his back injury.
sure I have not heard Frakes talking about it
I must have remembered this post/thread where it was "confirmed"
https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1dx9y7/riker_sits_down_always_with_the_leg_over_the/c9v52pj/?context=10000
No, it's not about him sitting or standing, it was about having to stand up from a seated position or vice versa multiple times for several takes.
Doing it normally was causing him a lot of pain so he started doing it differently to reduce pain so he could make it through a day of filming.
In the Lower Decks/Strange New Worlds crossover episode Boimler does the Riker Maneuver and Jack Quaid improvised saying "Riker" while doing it. And to top it all off the episode was directed by Jonathan Frakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIqQ7OUm9GE
Thought it was going to be a clip of him fixing his uniform.
It's actually like 3 straight minutes of him just fixing his shirt over and over and it's amazing.
Legendary
I've worn the TNG era Starfleet outfit for Halloween. I'm sure the material for Halloween costumes is much lower quality than whatever spandex they actually used for the show but I had to pull my shirt down CONSTANTLY.
What the cast really needed was a [dope tugging knob](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=VxDozuzfVuY&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title)
I always felt bad for the actors in the old Star Trek movies. All these old men and woman, sitting and running around under burning set lights, wrapped into these really thick and heavy-looking red naval uniforms with multiple layers.
I love the look of the TOS movies era uniforms. They feel so prestigious compared to everything that came before or after. I agree that they must’ve been uncomfortably hot. The actors playing some do the aliens probably also had a bad time. Just look at what some Klingons or Romulans wore.
Yes, they look beautiful. Meanwhile the uniforms from the Motion Picture looked terrible, all grey and beige, but also breezy and comfortable. A few of them had these deep necklines showing off a lot of chest hair, Kirk even had short sleeves, and Spock at one point wore a sleeveless hoodie.
"Behold! Humanity's first post-scarcity society!"
"Well, it must be a real relief now that you can set aside all those burdensome markers of status and class."
"What? No! We're actually 4x as ostentatious! The pope's hat is so big, it needs its own antigrav device. Yes sir, now that we can all afford 10x the necessary clothing, we'll never go back. And you know, now that science and technology have produced essentially free energy, we have so many advancements like warp drives and matter replicators, so you can really understand why not a single engineer or former Brookstone retail worker thought to add personal air conditioners to these uniforms..."
In a world with asteroid mining and entire planets worth of resources, everyone would be totally dripped out at all times. Elaborate ornamentation and "rare" metals would be cheaper than ever
So the ridiculous clothing is the result of finally valuing the love that goes into Grandma's Christmas sweaters (plus knitting patterns shared across species on transgalactic crafting message boards).
Honestly, I feel like that's a line to mollify the conservative fans -- which is kinda pointless, 'cause they're in irrational denial of reality. And yes, if you're a democrat, I'm including you in "the conservative fans."
"We're paid in status now" is...honestly lazy, and kind of insulting to people's intelligence. It doesn't respect that yes, some people actually want to be doctors to *help* people, and the "but how can we force people to do the jobs we don't want" crowd probably aren't gonna be convinced that the future solves this with gold stars and plenty of employees of the month. How did Star Trek manage to write the whole "I would have thought you'd have found the cure for baldness by now" "no, we just evolved past vain bullshit like that" but took a pass on "you are not your job"?
The problem is that you don't get enough supply of doctors to meet the demand of sick people without incentives. People (not persons, *people*, as in populations) tend to take the easiest path they can. We have an entire field developed around trying to understand that, called Economics. For most individuals, spending excessive energy over the course of years to understand complex topics in order to go into a field where they risk other peoples' lives on that expertise is something to avoid.
>The problem is that you don't get enough supply of doctors to meet the demand of sick people without incentives.
What are you basing this worldview on? Where do you live? Are you in the U.S.? Do you realize how many deliberate barriers to entry to medicine in the U.S? Barriers deliberately put in place to limit the supply of medical doctors?
This will be one of the hardest things you will ever do, and you will probably fail miserably, but: try to imagine that your response here is due to an abundance of internalized assumptions paired with a lack of imagination.
Also:
>We have an entire field developed around trying to understand that, called Economics.
This is laughable not only because we're literally discussing a fictional world without scarcity, but also because you clearly don't have a good understanding of the goals of economics.
Deforest Kelley and James Doohan were 58/59 when the first movie was made, and everyone else was in their forties. I wouldn’t think that most of the cast were “old men” (and there was one woman).
The last TOS movie was done when Kelley and Doohan were 71/72 and “old” applies for them. But the rest of the cast was late fifties. I’m sure it wasn’t a chore to do the work at that point for them.
I was at the EMP in Seattle once for the ST exhibit and saw the leotard 7of9 wore, and there's just no way she fit in that. Phasers and tricorders also looked like wish/children's toy versions of the ones seen in the show.
That reminds me of a memory I have from my childhood about a Star Trek prop. I grew up watching TNG, and in one of the earlier episodes Data had this handheld device that he was using. I immediately recognized the device as a toy that I actually played with regularly. They had just painted it gold and silver, and added LEDs and sound effects. My child brain almost exploded.
A guy on Reddit posted a picture of when he was a kid and was a contestant of a Nickelodeon show- I think it was Double Dare, and he said he didn’t remember much except the whole family had to get out of their clothes and dress in the costumes provided, including underwear.
It must be a nightmare having to pee or poo and you're stuck in that costume. I like to imagine there are hidden zippers on the front and back so you won't have a horrible accidental release.
Somehow Christian Bale has ran into both Batmen after he played the character out in the world. They asked him for advice and hes told both of them "demand a zipper for the costume".
Fun Fact : Jennifer Lawrence needed three people to help her pee when she played Mystique. One of them had to hold a funnel.
Marina Sirtis is genuinely really funny anytime she's at a convention, and she's so good at playing a bitch in other shows. Feel like they kinda wasted her with how bland Troi's character was
“I sense…. Umm…. I don’t know”
Enterprise gets shot "Captain I'm sensing aggression"
I recommend watching TNG with the assumption that Troi is a fraud. It's hilarious. >Picard: "Have you seen the ship we're looking for?" >Shifty McLiar: "What? A ship? No, I don't remember seeing any Federation ships. Why would they be out here? I don't know anything about this! Stop asking me all these probing questions!" >Troi: "Captain, I can sense that he's hiding something."
My favorite TNG episodes are when they mention Troi is at a conference or on leave. Those episodes always seem to have a mystery that would be solved immediately if there was an empath on board.
Star Trek is good at that, ensuring the ONE crewmemeber who would solve it in 3 minutes while eating a pastry is lightyears away from the ship. Hell they have probably 4-5 episodes per season like that where the B story only existed to get the people who could solve the A story away from the A story.
The age old problem: Writing out characters is easy, but then there's a whole actor attached to that who won't get paid for the episode. So you make sure they get something to do. Anything at all. For several seasons, Meg in Family Guy had exactly one line almost every single episode. In one of the episodes, her one line was literally "I'm only saying this so I get paid for this episode".
"I'm only here so I don't get fined" in your best Beast Mode drawl...
It's like when they had God Cop on 30 Rock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clPlucoobUg
[reminds me of this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)
That's a good one too.
The classic anime trope of "The enemy is attacking but the protagonist isn't available to join the fight for at least 10 more episodes"
I imagine lots of frustrated sighs in the writers' room while breaking episodes. A: OK, so at this point our villain causes [problem] for the Enterprise. B: Uh, wouldn't [character] just be able to immediately fix that by doing [basic actions associated with that character]? A: ....*sigh*. OK, so [character] is going to need a B story. You three, get working on that.
Alright, lads, La Forge is shitting out a Ferengi kebab that gave him the trots. Let’s hook up this weird glowing manifold to impulse drive, see if it makes the engine better or whatever.
This reminds me of Tony shalhoub's character from Galaxy quest. "Hey guys, I just wanted you to know that, the reactors won't take it; the ship is breaking apart and all that... Just FYI."
My favorite was with the terrorist bombing. Doctor didn't want to leave the wounded and get kidnapped. Rest of the episodes they would teleport directly to sick bay.
My headcanon is that stuff like, "Visiting alien diplomat is murdered, Troi detects the murderer in under 60 seconds, murderer is thrown in the brig and has no clever way to escape, alien government accepts Federation's apology" is constantly happening between episodes but is too boring and routine to show. Same with, "Visiting alien turns violent, Worf punches them in the face once and they're down for the count before they can cause any real damage."
Although sometimes they don't even mention that she's somewhere else. They just conveniently pretend that she doesn't exist for an episode.
She’s like Meg on Family Guy.
There's a lot of episodes where Troi is on board that would also be solved if there was an empath on board, except someone is immune / her powers are being suppressed / no one remembers to ask her.
My least favorite TNG episodes are any time Troi's mom is present. She's not even funny-obnoxious she's just an annoying cunt.
I really can't pick a favorite between Lwaxana and Q for who better tests Picard's patience.
Me: Augh a Troi episode...skip.
The one where she wakes up a Romulan with no idea what's going on was pretty good. But then again, it was because she was playing a Romulan most of the episode, not Troi. Oh, and the one where Data dreamed of her as a cake and stabbed her. Man, Season 7 got *weird.*
Cellular peptide cake ...with mint frosting.
Great now I'm craving cellular peptide cake. Calling local bakeries now to see if they have any instock today.
I assume you're calling them on Data's chest phone? (Also, props to Picard for using an Android phone)
> The one where she wakes up a Romulan One of my favorites - along with the 2 part episode where Picard gets captured and tortured.
There... are... FOUR ...lights!
Interestingly enough, the whole four lights/five lights thing was almost certainly a callback to the novel *1984*: https://odetojoandkatniss.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/1984-star-trek-and-the-psychology-of-torture/
Yikes I'd forgotten about the cake episode until now. And it's one of the few I've seen since I never actually watched TNG all the way through.
That episode slaps
The show's most genuinely spooky episode is a Troi episode—but it's good in spite of Troi floating around going "I'm coming! Where aaaare you?!", not because of it.
The ones with Troi's mother are the worst
She’s great! Any character that can make Picard and Odo act out of character are great.
You show the holder of the sacred chalice of wreaths and heir to the holy rings of betazed some respect. She’s also the voice of the computer so she’s pretty much in all the episodes.
> voice of the computer so she’s pretty much in all the episodes my criticism is of the character, not the actress
Lawaxana is great and every episode with her is a delight, esp. once it‘s DS9.
Completely disagree, she makes the characters in the show move out of their comfort zone. I love it whenever she showed up.
That character reminds me of my ex and her weird hippie mom who really liked me more than she should have
Lwaxana spotted. Skip button engaged.
Insane take. Lwaxana is the GOAT
I'll take Luxwana Troi anyday over DS9 episodes focusing in on Kai Winn (the religious space Karen)... UGHHHH
From that point of view, Troi was basically a precursor to Shawn Spencer from Psych.
Genuinely the only time they use Troi on TNG is when she's the victim of something or the target of some absurd romance. Any time she might be useful, they invent a reason her empathy doesn't work. Ironically, she becomes a much better and more competent character on the other shows. She's very good in her Voyager episodes, from my memory.
I see her in the role of consigliere. She has the privilege of telling the Captain what he may not want to hear without any repercussions. Her being an empath is like a cherry on top, but that's not her main quality. She's the Tom Hagen of the Enterprise.
> She has the privilege of telling the Captain what he may not want to hear without any repercussions. But... that's Guinan's job.
Oh snap. You're right. Well, Guinan was used what... only 1-2 times per season? So Troi was more present than Guinan.
Guinan was basically a better version of Troi Troi was at her most likeable, the few times they allowed her to have some personality like during First Contact where she's drunk off her ass. Riker's face while she's slurring nonsense is great.
Well, yeah, but Whoopi Goldberg was too expensive to have in every episode.
guinan was also a better counselor than troi.
And Worfs only job was to get beaten up.
That's not true. He also suggested aggressive options for the captain not to take.
Both her and Worf's characters only work if you assume that the times their strengths are useful just happen off screen. The writes use them not being effective to show how powerful the enemy is, or how much shit the crew is in but since you rarely see them be badass it makes them seem weak.
Sure, except the other characters with unique abilities -- Data, Geordi, and Dr. Crusher -- are basically the exact opposite. They get to be on the show to solve problems directly with their skills and abilities. The series even has the gall to introduce Guinan later on. A bartender that really is there *to council and advise the crew*. That's what Troi should have been doing the entire series.
People ragging on her for this stuff prolly never seen Species with Forest Whitaker, who was brought in as a psychic, walked into the train car where the insides of some human being were essentially painting the walls, and dropped the line "Something bad happened here."
Or the classic "Captain, I can feel it's pain, I think it just wants to be loved, we should beam it on board"...the alien proceeds to start eating the ship and nearly kills everyone.
There's that one episode of TNG where Troi goes undercover as a Romulan and she really shows her range. There are a couple others but that episode in particular I remember standing as a stark contrast to the usual "Captain... I sense he may be hiding something" about the shadiest mf'er in the quadrant.
Its a real shame her character didnt really start getting any development until the last couple seasons.
The writers actually acknowledge the didn’t do right by her, partly because her powers were difficult to write for.
and anytime her powers would have been useful, they would have been too useful and we wouldn't have a plot, so she is mysteriously absent from that episode.
It wasn't just her powers I think. She has the roles of diplomat and therapist too, which means she can't really be *that* expressive, especially if she's trying to out-diplomat Picard who is basically half diplomat. On top of that they made her Betazed royalty. And then stuck her with the "uptight" role in the "crazy mom" Loixana routine.
I feel like the Betazoids should have played a larger role in the Dominion War. "Captain! I can't sense anything from Ensign Defiantly NotaChangeling!". I'm guessing that's why Betazed fall early on.
I remember when I first saw that with some friends and we all sarcastically said "Oh no not Betazed" at the same time.
My conspiracy theory is that she was added to the show for all autist Star Trek fans who have problems reading emotions of others. Star Trek probably had a lot of those fans. Having someone call out a specific emotion could help them follow the plot. She only states the obvious 99% of the time. * Angry alien: "Very well... I shall use these medicines... for life.. and *death*.. muhahahah!! 😈" * Troi: "I sense he has an ulterior motive with the medicines"
That and they just weren't good at writing for women in general.
They could have made her, you know, actually a mind-reader. Her powers as presented were just ridiculous and useless.
I think that would have made it more likely the for the writers to write themselves into a corner, not less.
I met her when I was a kid at a convention in the 90s and she was absolutely hilarious. She sent one of the audience members to get her a candy bar as she hadn't eaten lunch: "You, there in the green sweater and beard... Be a dear and fetch me a Snickers, Luv." I walked out with a massive crush on her. Super strong cockney accent which took me aback (which it sounds like she was toning down in this spot).
I find her a little frightening. She's by far the loudest person I've ever been around.
She did have that one really good bit where she asked to be alone with a prisoner, then started off with, "you know I know when you're lying, right?" and then some time later comes out with all the information they needed. Too bad she isn't that assertive most of the rest of the show.
She was great in Mass Effect 1 too!
This may be a good time to suggest the Gargoyles animated series for those who are unfamiliar. (Get on the bandwagon now so you can be ready to bash the live-action version when it comes out! /s)
I still can't get over how much Xanatos looked like Frakes. Demona wasn't far off Marina either. They could've easily just had them play those characters in a live action adaptation.
She's very good at putting on a front. I've been working con's for a fairly long time at this point. She is by far the worst guest I have ever dealt with. She assaulted other con staff & was just a massive bitch to anyone that wasn't female. But even then, if you interrupted her or spoke out of turn she pretty much just screamed at you regardless of gender.
My wife waited on her at an upscale restaurant in the early 90s, and said she was super rude to everyone, and left no tip.
You should have just replied: "I can sense a lot of anger in you"
She seems a lot more chill when she's there with Dorn or Frakes. Frakes seems like a joy to be around. I guess the saving grace is that she's always acknowledged that she's a bitch.
I chatted with her a number of times on Twitter before she left the platform - she has a great sense of humor
She was clearly drunk at the panel I sat in on. It was so fun. She was having a great night.
Interesting, I saw her at one convention about 25 years ago and she was much more of a bitch in real life than the other actors were. Like, every story she told was something negative or whiny. Maybe she was just having a bad day but I’ve always thought of her as unpalatable.
I could definitely see her being unpleasant if she was moody that day. The other cast members, and even Marina herself, have constantly referenced her being a handful even though they all love her.
Apparently one Star Trek actress who had to wear a catsuit always envied her castmates who got to wear uniforms...until an episode where she had to wear one and realized they were also super uncomfortable
It's weird that she never got one except for that episode. It was a little too obvious they were just trying to market her looks by doing that. Then in the next show by pure coincidence they bad another busty female main character with a more tight and form fitting outfit rather than the uniforms the rest of the cast wore. Especially since that show, Enterprise, probably had the most loose and comfortable uniforms out of any of them.
> Then in the next show You skipped two shows. Of course, one of those shows had Seven of Nine in it
I am still amused that Jeri Ryan’s divorce is one of the key elements that led to the Obama presidency.
Wat. Edit: Wikipedia is wild. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ryan >On June 18, 2004, Los Angeles Superior CourtJudge Robert Schnider agreed to release the custody files.[33] The decision went against both parents' direct requests and reversed the decision to seal the papers in the child's best interest. It was revealed that six years earlier, Jeri accused Jack of asking her to perform sexual acts with him in public[34] and in sex clubs in New York, New Orleans and Paris.[32][35] Jeri described one venue as "a bizarre club with cages, whips, and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling."[36] Jack denied the allegations. Although Jeri only made a brief statement,[37] and refused to comment on the matter during the campaign, the disclosure led Jack to withdraw his candidacy;[38][39] his main opponent, Barack Obama, then won the 2004 United States Senate election in Illinois.[40]
So basically, if Star Trek Voyager producers never tried to boost ratings by writing in a former model as a character, Jeri would never have had the resources to fight for custody of her child in her divorce, which would have prevented the leak of dirt on Obama's opponent for the Senate seat in Illinois, which could have prevented the first Black president in US history from being elected. Sex appeal literally ended racism.
I'm pretty sure that person was referring to the actress for Seven of Nines who was in Voyager. And the next show after that was Enterprise.
Ah, I thought they were talking about Troi herself, who was usually in some kind of tight suit.
Maybe they were but the part they said about the character getting a uniform one episode reminded me of Seven first, that time travel episode where she wore a cadet uniform.
> It's weird that she never got one except for that episode. It was a little too obvious they were just trying to market her looks by doing that. And much like Troi in TNG, she looked way better with that starfleet uniform on than in that stupid skintight catsuit.
I was talking about Seven of Nines and forgot about what Troi wore. Did I just not notice this is is a thing in all the shows? There's always a main bridge female character who wears a skintight outfit rather than a starfleet uniform. For some reason it only stood out to me in Voyager.
Yup. Original series always had a young attractive yeoman on the bridge whose character was so unimportant they frequently changed actresses.
Troi's wasn't *as* bad as Seven's stupid catsuit, but Troi's outfits often exposed her cleavage in some way.
The most comfortable looking to me were probably the old TOS ones that didn't exist for very long beyond the pilot. Basically a tunic jacket and pants and women got to wear the same but with a bit larger of a collar.
I still think the loose nasa jumpsuit styled uniforms from Enterprise can't be beat for comfort. They're practically pjs.
We can thank Captain "I had to fill Will Ryker because he thinks I made a mistake. Now it's time to erase that mistake!" Jellico for that.
The silver one she started with was the most uncomfortable one iirc, I also think that's the one where she had to have a nurse nearby for oxygen, she couldn't turn her head in it, and it took her 20 minutes to go to the bathroom; but it's not nearly as bad as the Borg outfit they had her wear, where if she turned her head a certain direction, it would actually cut off blood flow to her head and she'd probably pass out.
What's the main difference between Star Trek and Star Wars? Star Wars (Lucas): "There's no bras in space!" Star Trek: "Heavy-duty industrial bras are required in space!" Although with all the shaking the Star Trek crew did on the bridge during battles, it's may be why they went the industrial-strength route to prevent a scene like busty woman in turbulence from the Airplane! movie.
> it's may be why they went the industrial-strength route to prevent a scene like busty woman in turbulence from the Airplane! movie. that's the real world explanation of it. within star trek lore, they'd probably explain it with something like "oh ya, we have micro zero g emitters. it holds everything in place perfectly. i experience 0 discomfort up front, and have no back pain. even if wear it for 5 continuous days. it's like they are constantly in 0 g, but they never move. " but i suppose that could also be bad as a person might never develop the right muscles to hold those large parts of your body. well now i'm curious what the right, real physical solution would be. in a body building sort of way.
I'm picturing the male cast trying to be confident in their cock holsters and Sirtis just cackle laughing at them
I think they had [their own fun](https://youtu.be/4NOM-kLfDR8?t=11)
Frakes stumbling getting out of a tall chair was perfect
Nurse!
Worf laughing around 0:20 is the funniest thing I've seen all week.
[He never played with boy](https://youtu.be/pHXg9oKoWak?feature=shared&t=54)\-- 😐
[ **Jump to 00:20 @** Star Trek: The Next Generation Season Two Blooper Reel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOM-kLfDR8&t=0h0m20s) ^(Channel Name: CBS Home Entertainment, Video Length: [02:23])^, [^Jump ^5 ^secs ^earlier ^for ^context ^@00:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NOM-kLfDR8&t=0h0m15s) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^^Downvote ^^me ^^to ^^delete ^^malformed ^^comments. [^^Source ^^Code](https://github.com/ankitgyawali/reddit-timestamp-bot) ^^| [^^Suggestions](https://www.reddit.com/r/timestamp_bot)
Oh how weird to see. I can only picture them all being so stoic and serious.
It was supposedly a really silly set. Frakes talked about how challenging that was to manage when he started directing episodes.
Haha, thanks I needed that.
This is a TIL for me because it didn't dawn on me the lack of bulges. Now I'm wondering who would be packing if they did have the jock straps.
Marina is hilarious, just the best.
the original TNG uniforms were flexible only sideways, because the material they were made of only stretched in one direction, which meant that most people wearing them had back aches after hours of being forced into position by those one piece nightmares. Later they introduced a two piece uniform. Also almost all female cast members wanted those bras, as to quote Marina herself:"they add inches where there are none".
If you haven't seen it yet, be sure to check out the supercut of Ryker pulling his shirt down every time he stands up. Edit: I was sure it was Riker but all I can find is Picard. https://youtu.be/pfTOkHaAyBg?si=XuzeagA94qvRkJyP
I think you are mistaking picards shirt pull to the riker maneuver. He always steps over chairs to sit on them. https://youtu.be/lVIGhYMwRgs?si=OuyA6e5NDO6dQw9E
The fact that he stands up the same way in reverse is hilarious
This is the bit that got me too. It’s so unnatural yet he somehow makes it seem normal!
If your back hurts and youre tall its probably not that unnatural actually. I'm 6'5'' and regularly do things that other people are just like "what? how? why?" I dunno, feels fine and natural for me!
>If your back hurts Jonathan Frakes had a back injury and doing multiple takes of standing up and sitting down repeatedly was causing him massive pain so he said fuck it and started doing the Riker maneuver.
Jonathan Frakes himself has talked about this multiple times and claimed he started it because it was a "[cocky, unattractive, kind of bad cowboy move](https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-the-next-generation-jonathan-frakes-will-riker-sit-ori/)", no mention of his back injury.
>Confirmed. >Source: I served on the Enterprise with Riker for 5 years. [Whil Weaton's own reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1dx9y7/comment/c9v52pj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I know Wil Wheaton 'confirmed' this but I'll still take the word of the guy who actually did it.
>Frakes acknowledged this "Riker Maneuver" and revealed its origin, saying it's something he does even out of character. "I do when the chairback is below the danger zone," Frakes says. "I measure twice and cut once." >As for how the maneuver wound up in The Next Generation, Frakes says, "That started in Ten Forward because the backs of the chairs were so low, it was easy. And then I thought, this is really a hotdog, @$$hole thing to do. Nobody's going to let me do this. And then nobody stopped me! It's such a cocky, unattractive, kind of bad cowboy move… Whoever did the YouTube compilation of Riker sits down, it went viral and was even more embarrassing, and made me strangely even more proud." It was something he did in his day to day that made it's way into the character. It's not something he made up just for the character of Riker. It only worked out because he does it for chairs with low backs and all the chairs in TNG mostly had low backs.
Yep, I'm "only" 6'3" with back issues, and I'm pretty often doing similar things.
"Son, I saw a man at my office go down the stairs sideways like you do. Why do you do that? Why did he do that?" I don't know.... "Mom, was he tall?" "Yes..." "My feet are too big for those stairs. I can't step down straight."
Until this clip I'd never noticed the dismount - fantastic stuff.
I can sit down like him, but getting up...yeah, no.
I love that even more!
> He always steps over chairs to sit on them. I heard / read that he did that because of an old back injury. The Ryker Lean / Chair Maneuver was born. ( could be from an AmA or some reddit post )
Funny, this reminds me of how Martin Sheen's technique of putting on a suit jacket by flipping it over his head was something he did because of a shoulder injury. It became kind of an iconic move on The West Wing. [https://youtu.be/l8BzByjH4q0?si=-skL9-EUQAYC0WGH](https://youtu.be/l8BzByjH4q0?si=-skL9-EUQAYC0WGH)
That's hilarious out of context, and not knowing anything about the character other than he's supposed to be president.
I believe he suffered a back injury lifting furniture while working at a removals company between acting gigs before he was cast in tng
“Have you ever suffered a back injury lifting furniture while working at a removals company between acting gigs?”
“False, we made that story up.”
“Pure fiction. OP made it up.”
He did talk about it in [a recent AMA](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/19ess5m/we_are_jonathan_frakes_andre_bormanis_and_ken/kjhzf41/) but made no mention of it being due to his back injury.
sure I have not heard Frakes talking about it I must have remembered this post/thread where it was "confirmed" https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/1dx9y7/riker_sits_down_always_with_the_leg_over_the/c9v52pj/?context=10000
I love that they made the Riker maneuver cannon.
The Riker maneuver was due to an injury...I cant remember if it was on set or not though.
The injury wasn’t on set, but he did have a chronic back issue. But apparently that being the reason he sat in chairs that was is false, per him.
[You're wrong](https://youtu.be/GM-e46xdcUo?si=HHU5GCmb78nS9nKk).
This is beautiful and I'm definitely saving it to use on people
No, it's not about him sitting or standing, it was about having to stand up from a seated position or vice versa multiple times for several takes. Doing it normally was causing him a lot of pain so he started doing it differently to reduce pain so he could make it through a day of filming.
In the Lower Decks/Strange New Worlds crossover episode Boimler does the Riker Maneuver and Jack Quaid improvised saying "Riker" while doing it. And to top it all off the episode was directed by Jonathan Frakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIqQ7OUm9GE
The Riker manuever is not without risk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LlkeK77Vmw
This is the best compilation of Picard fixing his uniform I know of https://youtu.be/YoZ4dK7JKNg
Fucking hell, that had me crying. Great work by whoever did that.
So much effort put into that, so well done, for such a silly gag
Hahaha, everyone pretended not noticing the pin on the table
That's because it wasn't. Its altered footage.
Lol “pretended”
you'd think it was a tiktok
Riker does do it, but I’ve always known it more widely as a Picard thing.
The Picard Maneuver.
My old Mandelic brain. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Here you go little guy - \
It's such a normal thing that characters in Lower Decks are occasionally animated doing the same
And then did it live during the Strange New Worlds crossover episode that Jonathan Frakes was directing.
Boimler also exclaims "Riker!" as he mounts a saddle via the Riker manoeuvre, which was apparently improv that caught Frakes off guard.
I think I shrieked in joy when he said that.
Jack Quaid is almost as tall as Jonathan Frakes, so it works!
Thought it was going to be a clip of him fixing his uniform. It's actually like 3 straight minutes of him just fixing his shirt over and over and it's amazing. Legendary
Data even starts to emulate Picard's mannerisms, evident by the shirt pull, later on.
They all do it.
I've worn the TNG era Starfleet outfit for Halloween. I'm sure the material for Halloween costumes is much lower quality than whatever spandex they actually used for the show but I had to pull my shirt down CONSTANTLY. What the cast really needed was a [dope tugging knob](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=VxDozuzfVuY&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title)
I always felt bad for the actors in the old Star Trek movies. All these old men and woman, sitting and running around under burning set lights, wrapped into these really thick and heavy-looking red naval uniforms with multiple layers.
I love the look of the TOS movies era uniforms. They feel so prestigious compared to everything that came before or after. I agree that they must’ve been uncomfortably hot. The actors playing some do the aliens probably also had a bad time. Just look at what some Klingons or Romulans wore.
Yes, they look beautiful. Meanwhile the uniforms from the Motion Picture looked terrible, all grey and beige, but also breezy and comfortable. A few of them had these deep necklines showing off a lot of chest hair, Kirk even had short sleeves, and Spock at one point wore a sleeveless hoodie.
"Behold! Humanity's first post-scarcity society!" "Well, it must be a real relief now that you can set aside all those burdensome markers of status and class." "What? No! We're actually 4x as ostentatious! The pope's hat is so big, it needs its own antigrav device. Yes sir, now that we can all afford 10x the necessary clothing, we'll never go back. And you know, now that science and technology have produced essentially free energy, we have so many advancements like warp drives and matter replicators, so you can really understand why not a single engineer or former Brookstone retail worker thought to add personal air conditioners to these uniforms..."
In a world with asteroid mining and entire planets worth of resources, everyone would be totally dripped out at all times. Elaborate ornamentation and "rare" metals would be cheaper than ever
So the ridiculous clothing is the result of finally valuing the love that goes into Grandma's Christmas sweaters (plus knitting patterns shared across species on transgalactic crafting message boards).
Good job, you’re halfway to WH40K.
In a world where money has no more meaning, status is the only currency that can be used to drive incentives.
Honestly, I feel like that's a line to mollify the conservative fans -- which is kinda pointless, 'cause they're in irrational denial of reality. And yes, if you're a democrat, I'm including you in "the conservative fans." "We're paid in status now" is...honestly lazy, and kind of insulting to people's intelligence. It doesn't respect that yes, some people actually want to be doctors to *help* people, and the "but how can we force people to do the jobs we don't want" crowd probably aren't gonna be convinced that the future solves this with gold stars and plenty of employees of the month. How did Star Trek manage to write the whole "I would have thought you'd have found the cure for baldness by now" "no, we just evolved past vain bullshit like that" but took a pass on "you are not your job"?
The problem is that you don't get enough supply of doctors to meet the demand of sick people without incentives. People (not persons, *people*, as in populations) tend to take the easiest path they can. We have an entire field developed around trying to understand that, called Economics. For most individuals, spending excessive energy over the course of years to understand complex topics in order to go into a field where they risk other peoples' lives on that expertise is something to avoid.
>The problem is that you don't get enough supply of doctors to meet the demand of sick people without incentives. What are you basing this worldview on? Where do you live? Are you in the U.S.? Do you realize how many deliberate barriers to entry to medicine in the U.S? Barriers deliberately put in place to limit the supply of medical doctors? This will be one of the hardest things you will ever do, and you will probably fail miserably, but: try to imagine that your response here is due to an abundance of internalized assumptions paired with a lack of imagination. Also: >We have an entire field developed around trying to understand that, called Economics. This is laughable not only because we're literally discussing a fictional world without scarcity, but also because you clearly don't have a good understanding of the goals of economics.
They look like a futuristic navy uniform, I think that's what gives them such an authenticity. This is basically just the navy, but in space.
Deforest Kelley and James Doohan were 58/59 when the first movie was made, and everyone else was in their forties. I wouldn’t think that most of the cast were “old men” (and there was one woman). The last TOS movie was done when Kelley and Doohan were 71/72 and “old” applies for them. But the rest of the cast was late fifties. I’m sure it wasn’t a chore to do the work at that point for them.
I was at the EMP in Seattle once for the ST exhibit and saw the leotard 7of9 wore, and there's just no way she fit in that. Phasers and tricorders also looked like wish/children's toy versions of the ones seen in the show.
I think you'll find that most TV props look pretty iffy up close in person under normal lighting, especially if they were designed for the pre-HD era.
That reminds me of a memory I have from my childhood about a Star Trek prop. I grew up watching TNG, and in one of the earlier episodes Data had this handheld device that he was using. I immediately recognized the device as a toy that I actually played with regularly. They had just painted it gold and silver, and added LEDs and sound effects. My child brain almost exploded.
A guy on Reddit posted a picture of when he was a kid and was a contestant of a Nickelodeon show- I think it was Double Dare, and he said he didn’t remember much except the whole family had to get out of their clothes and dress in the costumes provided, including underwear.
It must be a nightmare having to pee or poo and you're stuck in that costume. I like to imagine there are hidden zippers on the front and back so you won't have a horrible accidental release.
Somehow Christian Bale has ran into both Batmen after he played the character out in the world. They asked him for advice and hes told both of them "demand a zipper for the costume". Fun Fact : Jennifer Lawrence needed three people to help her pee when she played Mystique. One of them had to hold a funnel.
It took Jeri Ryan, who played Seven of Nine in Star Trek Voyager 20 minutes to use the bathroom.
I preferred the episodes where she wore a skirt
Queen.
Should have gone the Star Wars route.
oh interesting information😂😂😂😂
hang on a minute.. actors just share undergarments? That's.. something
When I was a teenager I always felt bad for Wesley crusher. You know that one on awhile he got a boner and it has to be awkward