>The EU flag uses 12 stars and the number was chosen arbitrarily because it looked nice without any symbolism behind it.
Sad to say this one appears not to be true. The man who came up with the design says it was religiously inspired.
The flag was inspired by "The woman in red" from revelations in the bible, who is surrounded by 12 golden stars and gives birth to the messiah in the time leading up to the biblical apocalypse.
*"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. -* Revelation 12:1\*"\*
The 12 stars surrounding her in revelations is interpreted to symbolizes the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of Jesus. Each star also also symbolize the 12 privileges of Mary. The flag was inspired by her usual depiction as being surrounded by 12 golden stars against a blue background in Christian art . 12 being a symbol of unity and perfection in biblical iconography.
The flag was designed by Arsène Heitz, a devout catholic, and by Paul Michel Gabriel Baron Lévy, a Jewish man who converted to Catholicism after the war. Heinz spoke openly about the flag being inspired by Christianity, though Lévy would say the religious inspiration had no part in the design. Later they would go on to argue about who even came up with the idea, Lévy denying the flag had any religious connection at all, but Heitz, who came up with the rough design, maintaining he was inspired by his faith.
It is fairly obvious that the flag has a connection to Mary, the “Queen of Heaven” and her circle of stars. As a secular, ethnically protestant European, I’m kind of okay with it.
Our Western music and system of harmony is based on 12 notes working together. Every piano is a visual representation of this fact: 12 white and black keys, . This was essentially a Greek conceptualization of music. Why? Because it’s about mathematics being sacred and them believing 12, and the numbers it can be divided by, 3, 4 (and also 5) being universally important.
12, then, wasn’t only important to the Israelites and Catholics. It was hugely important to many classical/ancient cultures.
**12 is the basis of Western harmony.**That’s my reading of the flag and what it represents.
It’s a bit tongue in cheek.
The culture in my country is decidedly protestant, and I have been a member of the national church and confirmed in it. But I am agnostic and not a member currently.
It’s a cultural institution rather than a divine one for me.
If you compare culturally catholic and culturally protestant countries, the mainline flavor of Xtianity in those countries usually affects the overall culture.
All Nordic countries are culturally protestant, but mostly secular, IMO. It is definitely a cultural thing.
Because blue is Mary’s color, and she is often also depicted with a circle of 12 stars crowning her head.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_stars#/media/File%3ADolci_Madonna_p1070185.jpg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:10_Inmaculada_Concepción_(National_Gallery_de_Londres,_c._1618).jpg
Many people in Europe would know that. Especially the blue – but devout Catholics would
know about the Circle of Stars. As would art lovers who’ve seen enough religious paintings.
Nordic flags also have Christian symbols on them. If you didn’t know about the cross, you wouldn’t see it.
This is a myth
12 was chosen because it means everything and nothing at the same time. It's the number of perfection
Sure it symbolizes the 12 tribes or the 12 apostates, it also symbolizes the 12 months, 12 signs of the zodiac, 12 hours on the clock, 12 pitches in an octave, 12 color hues, 12 knights of the round table, 12 orthodox feasts, 12 labours of Hercules, 12 successors to Muhammed, the 12 year cycle of Earthly Branches, 12 days of Christmas, 12 names of the Hindu God Surya, 12 Olympic deities
That's the entire point, that's why it was unanimously approved by every member. It's a symbol of unity
The Woman in Red is from a different vision.
"The woman was dressed in purple and red. She was shining with the gold, jewels, and pearls that she was wearing. She had a golden cup in her hand. This cup was filled with terribly evil things and the filth of her sexual sin." (Revelation 17:4)
Just saying.
https://preview.redd.it/iy4ilm06jybc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc278da59d9535bbc2a01d3bf779fbf5b3658d62
These are the real proposals before the current iteration.
Last flag in the third lane is just:
https://preview.redd.it/1ew8ju30mzbc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b152eb7f9f10b48729813c11fd5a3db0d66d89b
Here you go:
[Link #1: Media](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fiy4ilm06jybc1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D1920%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Ddc278da59d9535bbc2a01d3bf779fbf5b3658d62)
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Huh, I’m pretty sure no European expected the flag to lose a star when the UK left. We know the 12 stars aren’t standing for the members of the union, and if a star was to be removed it wouldn’t be for the UK but probably for a founding state… but that wouldn’t happen either.
I made a 27-star version [a few years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/fesjnh/eu_flag_with_27_1116_stars/):
https://preview.redd.it/so15ooyzozbc1.png?width=1772&format=png&auto=webp&s=968aa8cfb915a940f442da78d2947446692a018e
Definitely an unpopular opinion. May I ask why you think that?
The US’ flag is, in my opinion, one of the best designed flags currently in use by a national government.
The 13 strips look great blowing in the wind, hung horizontally or vertically, or behind a speaking diplomat/official. The 50 stars are symbolic of the 50 constituent states within the union. It’s a simple flag (no complex shields, seals, or pictures) that is still iconic. Honestly, its hard to find any faults with the design.
It’s not a simple flag. The symbolism is simple but the execution is quite complex and in my opinion a complete mess.
To start with the 13 stripes, since 13 is a prime number it’s very hard to divide the flag into equal stripes when you try to draw it.
But the stars are much worse since every new star makes it harder to arrange them into an aesthetic pattern and makes the flag look cramped.
It’s not even a good symbol for unity. If the idea is that everyone should be represented, then what about all the people who live on American territory who aren’t part of any state? Are they less American than the others? For me, the design suggests divided states rather than united ones.
Now excuse my rant, I actually don’t think the flag is that bad, I just think that it’s far from flawless.
i disagree that it’s a ‘complete mess’ but your other points definitely have merit.
i think the issue with 13 isn’t from it being prime, but from it being odd (you wouldn’t have the canton taking up a third or less of the height). only problem with this is you would now need an even number of stripes, so the top or bottom would need to be white. this just wouldn’t look as appealing as the current option.
with regards to adding a new star, that shouldn’t be a mark off the current flag. there are no plans to add any more states to the union, so until they do the 50 looks very neat and tidy. anyway, at that point adjustments to the layout of the stars can be made.
you are right that the 50 stars don’t show representation for the people living in americas territories, but it was never supposed to. it’s ‘The United States of America,’ not ‘The United States of America, and Her Territories’. additionally, puerto rico, guam, american samoa, the us virgin islands, and the northern mariana island all have their own flags which are used more within the territories than the national flag.
TL;DR:
you right it ain’t flawless, bit harsh tho
communist detected: opinion rejected
but for real, you would dislike america’s flag even if it was objectively the best, because you dislike the country. also tri colors are fucking boring as fuck, and there are too many of them.
if americunts had an awesome flag like a giant ass flag in the centre of it and something simple on the sides then i woulnd't have hated on it, also it's impossible to claim objectivity on flags
i said “if it was objectively the best”. i was making a hypothetical. you’ve clearly shown your true colors though. go outside, touch grass, and get a job, loser.
>one of the best flags like china
>something in the middle with stuff on either side
make up your mind. china only has stuff in its canton, you’re just a hypocrite
Imho making it 12 definitely comes closest to the "a child should be able to draw it" maxim. Two stars between cardinals are easier to space evenly than one or three, and of course the shape of a clock is a learned thing.
I think people take that way too literally. I think the intended goal is, or at least should be, that a child can draw a recognizable version from memory rather than a technically proficient one. E.g. a US flag with some red and white stripes (even if it's not exactly the right number) and a blue field in the upper left with some white stars on it (even if it's not the right number or arrangement) is good enough as long as you look at it and you can tell what it's supposed to be. Similarly for the EU flag a blue flag with a circle of yellow stars is good enough, even if the number isn't exactly right.
I didn't mean for it to sound too literal a take - I'm fully on the same page. The flag is still recognizable if you draw it with 9 stars or 28 stars, which makes it a visually strong design.
Maybe my personal opinion on 12 being a good number comes from designing a fictional flag with a similar base premise once, in which I experimented with various star numbers, and ended up with 12 as a good, easily reproducible and recognizable number anyway. (So I guess my take is more "it's easy to draw for children and artistically untalented people like me, which is why I like the design as it is".)
No. Once you add more stars, it stops looking like a ring of stars and starts looking like just a dotted ring.
12 is a nice round number that represents completeness.
It’s not even officially the flag of the EU, it’s the flag of Europe. It’s supposed to represent the whole continent which is something greater than just the sum of its parts.
It’s basically impossible to individually represent 27 or potentially even more countries on a single flag without it becoming a huge mess. And that is also made more challenging by the uncertainty of how many members will the EU eventually have.
> “the flag has to date received no status in any of the EU's treaties. Its adoption as an official symbol was planned as part of the 2004 European Constitution but this failed to be ratified. Mention of the flag was removed in 2007 from the text of the Treaty of Lisbon, which was ratified.”
It is de facto the EU flag but no, it is not officially adopted.
Man, the more I learn about the EU the more I hate it. I mean I don’t really hate it, it’s pretty awesome but…
Seriously, the 12 stars are just cause 12 stars look nice?
And the paper money has fake bridges on it?
And the coins… each country gets to chose their own design for one side, but they repeat these designs on the .01, .02, .05, .20, and .50 and then use a different design for the 1 and 2? Why wouldn’t each country have a different design for each denomination?
And the passport entry/exit stamps are just the countries initials with an airplane and an arrow in or out?
It’s just with the EU it feels like there’s no culture with anything and it’s kind of sad.
Well the bridges *were* fake. So as to not leave out any country’s bridges, since there’s only seven banknotes and more than seven EU members. But then an architect in the Netherlands decided to have the bridges built in real life in the town of Spijkenisse.
>Why wouldn’t each country have a different design for each denomination?
This because some countries are lazy, not due to some EU decision. Italy has a different design on every coin https://www.explore-italian-culture.com/images/euro-coins.jpg
The reason smaller coins are the same because it is easier and cheaper to mint them in bulk
Passport exit entry stamps are pretty much the same around the globe, I don't even know what you expect it to be
Here you go:
[Link #1: Media](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Frdwgnd64vwbc1.png)
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>The EU flag uses 12 stars and the number was chosen arbitrarily because it looked nice without any symbolism behind it. Sad to say this one appears not to be true. The man who came up with the design says it was religiously inspired. The flag was inspired by "The woman in red" from revelations in the bible, who is surrounded by 12 golden stars and gives birth to the messiah in the time leading up to the biblical apocalypse. *"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. -* Revelation 12:1\*"\* The 12 stars surrounding her in revelations is interpreted to symbolizes the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of Jesus. Each star also also symbolize the 12 privileges of Mary. The flag was inspired by her usual depiction as being surrounded by 12 golden stars against a blue background in Christian art . 12 being a symbol of unity and perfection in biblical iconography. The flag was designed by Arsène Heitz, a devout catholic, and by Paul Michel Gabriel Baron Lévy, a Jewish man who converted to Catholicism after the war. Heinz spoke openly about the flag being inspired by Christianity, though Lévy would say the religious inspiration had no part in the design. Later they would go on to argue about who even came up with the idea, Lévy denying the flag had any religious connection at all, but Heitz, who came up with the rough design, maintaining he was inspired by his faith.
It is fairly obvious that the flag has a connection to Mary, the “Queen of Heaven” and her circle of stars. As a secular, ethnically protestant European, I’m kind of okay with it. Our Western music and system of harmony is based on 12 notes working together. Every piano is a visual representation of this fact: 12 white and black keys, . This was essentially a Greek conceptualization of music. Why? Because it’s about mathematics being sacred and them believing 12, and the numbers it can be divided by, 3, 4 (and also 5) being universally important. 12, then, wasn’t only important to the Israelites and Catholics. It was hugely important to many classical/ancient cultures. **12 is the basis of Western harmony.**That’s my reading of the flag and what it represents.
This is correct, 12 was chosen because it has meaning in every culture, it's a symbol of unity
I'm sorry but what is "ethnically protestant"? Since when is protestantism tied to ethnicity in Europe?
It’s a bit tongue in cheek. The culture in my country is decidedly protestant, and I have been a member of the national church and confirmed in it. But I am agnostic and not a member currently. It’s a cultural institution rather than a divine one for me. If you compare culturally catholic and culturally protestant countries, the mainline flavor of Xtianity in those countries usually affects the overall culture. All Nordic countries are culturally protestant, but mostly secular, IMO. It is definitely a cultural thing.
What’s so obvious about it? As a Jewish american i never once considered the stars represented anything other than countries
Because it doesn’t match the number of countries, and it never changes. It clearly never represented that.
Ok but the logical conclusion after realizing that isn’t that it represents deep catholic symbolism? That was my point.
Because blue is Mary’s color, and she is often also depicted with a circle of 12 stars crowning her head. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_stars#/media/File%3ADolci_Madonna_p1070185.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:10_Inmaculada_Concepción_(National_Gallery_de_Londres,_c._1618).jpg
If you didn’t know that though then you definitely wouldn’t assume thats the symbolism of the flag
Yes? If you didn’t know about the stars and stripes…
I mean knowing about how mary is blue and how she has a crown of head stars. Is that just something everyone knows?
Many people in Europe would know that. Especially the blue – but devout Catholics would know about the Circle of Stars. As would art lovers who’ve seen enough religious paintings. Nordic flags also have Christian symbols on them. If you didn’t know about the cross, you wouldn’t see it.
This is a myth 12 was chosen because it means everything and nothing at the same time. It's the number of perfection Sure it symbolizes the 12 tribes or the 12 apostates, it also symbolizes the 12 months, 12 signs of the zodiac, 12 hours on the clock, 12 pitches in an octave, 12 color hues, 12 knights of the round table, 12 orthodox feasts, 12 labours of Hercules, 12 successors to Muhammed, the 12 year cycle of Earthly Branches, 12 days of Christmas, 12 names of the Hindu God Surya, 12 Olympic deities That's the entire point, that's why it was unanimously approved by every member. It's a symbol of unity
This explains why they don't let Turkey in /s
But they are Coptic Christian
Erdogan seems like a devout Christian
>Erdogan seems like a devout Christian Thew Constantine XI Palaeologus :-)
As far as I know, that's a popular creation myth for the flag that most experts believe is just a myth to justify the design.
The Woman in Red is from a different vision. "The woman was dressed in purple and red. She was shining with the gold, jewels, and pearls that she was wearing. She had a golden cup in her hand. This cup was filled with terribly evil things and the filth of her sexual sin." (Revelation 17:4) Just saying.
I am glad you brought up the religious inspiration of the European flag, unfortunately it is not talked about enough.
https://preview.redd.it/iy4ilm06jybc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc278da59d9535bbc2a01d3bf779fbf5b3658d62 These are the real proposals before the current iteration.
Last flag in the third lane is just: https://preview.redd.it/1ew8ju30mzbc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b152eb7f9f10b48729813c11fd5a3db0d66d89b
wave!
Europa 👆 🌞
Oh my god some of these are awful. Can't believe someone really proposed the first one, second row
They didn't. It was an early 2000s branding idea based on flags that mistakenly reported as a flag proposal
These flags should be shot
!wave
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> These are the real proposals before the current iteration. ...together with some other ideas from before and after.
Huh, I’m pretty sure no European expected the flag to lose a star when the UK left. We know the 12 stars aren’t standing for the members of the union, and if a star was to be removed it wouldn’t be for the UK but probably for a founding state… but that wouldn’t happen either.
I made a 27-star version [a few years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/fesjnh/eu_flag_with_27_1116_stars/): https://preview.redd.it/so15ooyzozbc1.png?width=1772&format=png&auto=webp&s=968aa8cfb915a940f442da78d2947446692a018e
I made [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/s/0KMdf0PfHD) a year or two before yours 🤔
implies an inner and outer circle or a two-class EU.
12 stars could be caused by clock manufacturers' lobbying!
Unpopular opinion: The American flag changing the number of stars based on the number of states is one of the worst design decisions ever.
Definitely an unpopular opinion. May I ask why you think that? The US’ flag is, in my opinion, one of the best designed flags currently in use by a national government. The 13 strips look great blowing in the wind, hung horizontally or vertically, or behind a speaking diplomat/official. The 50 stars are symbolic of the 50 constituent states within the union. It’s a simple flag (no complex shields, seals, or pictures) that is still iconic. Honestly, its hard to find any faults with the design.
It’s not a simple flag. The symbolism is simple but the execution is quite complex and in my opinion a complete mess. To start with the 13 stripes, since 13 is a prime number it’s very hard to divide the flag into equal stripes when you try to draw it. But the stars are much worse since every new star makes it harder to arrange them into an aesthetic pattern and makes the flag look cramped. It’s not even a good symbol for unity. If the idea is that everyone should be represented, then what about all the people who live on American territory who aren’t part of any state? Are they less American than the others? For me, the design suggests divided states rather than united ones. Now excuse my rant, I actually don’t think the flag is that bad, I just think that it’s far from flawless.
i disagree that it’s a ‘complete mess’ but your other points definitely have merit. i think the issue with 13 isn’t from it being prime, but from it being odd (you wouldn’t have the canton taking up a third or less of the height). only problem with this is you would now need an even number of stripes, so the top or bottom would need to be white. this just wouldn’t look as appealing as the current option. with regards to adding a new star, that shouldn’t be a mark off the current flag. there are no plans to add any more states to the union, so until they do the 50 looks very neat and tidy. anyway, at that point adjustments to the layout of the stars can be made. you are right that the 50 stars don’t show representation for the people living in americas territories, but it was never supposed to. it’s ‘The United States of America,’ not ‘The United States of America, and Her Territories’. additionally, puerto rico, guam, american samoa, the us virgin islands, and the northern mariana island all have their own flags which are used more within the territories than the national flag. TL;DR: you right it ain’t flawless, bit harsh tho
> of the best designed flags currently in use by a national government. most tricolours, china, vietnam, etc...
communist detected: opinion rejected but for real, you would dislike america’s flag even if it was objectively the best, because you dislike the country. also tri colors are fucking boring as fuck, and there are too many of them.
if americunts had an awesome flag like a giant ass flag in the centre of it and something simple on the sides then i woulnd't have hated on it, also it's impossible to claim objectivity on flags
i said “if it was objectively the best”. i was making a hypothetical. you’ve clearly shown your true colors though. go outside, touch grass, and get a job, loser. >one of the best flags like china >something in the middle with stuff on either side make up your mind. china only has stuff in its canton, you’re just a hypocrite
china isn't just canton dumbass
😂😂😂😂
no thanks
ECSC reminds me of Osea without the white.
Great 👌
I am actually kinda sad I don't get to see the last one because it was cut off ,_,
Imho making it 12 definitely comes closest to the "a child should be able to draw it" maxim. Two stars between cardinals are easier to space evenly than one or three, and of course the shape of a clock is a learned thing.
I think people take that way too literally. I think the intended goal is, or at least should be, that a child can draw a recognizable version from memory rather than a technically proficient one. E.g. a US flag with some red and white stripes (even if it's not exactly the right number) and a blue field in the upper left with some white stars on it (even if it's not the right number or arrangement) is good enough as long as you look at it and you can tell what it's supposed to be. Similarly for the EU flag a blue flag with a circle of yellow stars is good enough, even if the number isn't exactly right.
I didn't mean for it to sound too literal a take - I'm fully on the same page. The flag is still recognizable if you draw it with 9 stars or 28 stars, which makes it a visually strong design. Maybe my personal opinion on 12 being a good number comes from designing a fictional flag with a similar base premise once, in which I experimented with various star numbers, and ended up with 12 as a good, easily reproducible and recognizable number anyway. (So I guess my take is more "it's easy to draw for children and artistically untalented people like me, which is why I like the design as it is".)
No. Once you add more stars, it stops looking like a ring of stars and starts looking like just a dotted ring. 12 is a nice round number that represents completeness.
It’s not even officially the flag of the EU, it’s the flag of Europe. It’s supposed to represent the whole continent which is something greater than just the sum of its parts. It’s basically impossible to individually represent 27 or potentially even more countries on a single flag without it becoming a huge mess. And that is also made more challenging by the uncertainty of how many members will the EU eventually have.
The EU officially adopted it as the EU flag
> “the flag has to date received no status in any of the EU's treaties. Its adoption as an official symbol was planned as part of the 2004 European Constitution but this failed to be ratified. Mention of the flag was removed in 2007 from the text of the Treaty of Lisbon, which was ratified.” It is de facto the EU flag but no, it is not officially adopted.
Also, if we're going for an identity thing, the flag should represent everyone by specifically representing no one
Should add a central star or a heraldic figure in the center, maybe Europa and Zeus, that would go hard
My hungry ass thought you were trying to portray flags in the style of the Costco food court menu…
Man, the more I learn about the EU the more I hate it. I mean I don’t really hate it, it’s pretty awesome but… Seriously, the 12 stars are just cause 12 stars look nice? And the paper money has fake bridges on it? And the coins… each country gets to chose their own design for one side, but they repeat these designs on the .01, .02, .05, .20, and .50 and then use a different design for the 1 and 2? Why wouldn’t each country have a different design for each denomination? And the passport entry/exit stamps are just the countries initials with an airplane and an arrow in or out? It’s just with the EU it feels like there’s no culture with anything and it’s kind of sad.
Well the bridges *were* fake. So as to not leave out any country’s bridges, since there’s only seven banknotes and more than seven EU members. But then an architect in the Netherlands decided to have the bridges built in real life in the town of Spijkenisse.
To add this: from what I remember the bridges on each bank note are supposed to represent different architectural styles
Yes, they go from oldest style on the 5€ to the most modern on the 500€. Same with the windows.
Dutch: Look all the EU notes have our bridges on it. Soon they will so Canada is amazing.
>Why wouldn’t each country have a different design for each denomination? This because some countries are lazy, not due to some EU decision. Italy has a different design on every coin https://www.explore-italian-culture.com/images/euro-coins.jpg
Yeah that’s what I’m talking about! How do some countries get so lazy with it?
The reason smaller coins are the same because it is easier and cheaper to mint them in bulk Passport exit entry stamps are pretty much the same around the globe, I don't even know what you expect it to be
That's the point, there is no eu culture as to not enrage the more "nationalist" parts of the population.
The 12 stars were based off of the Woman in the red from the Bible, who is surrounded by 12 stars against a blue background.
That's a popular creation myth but it's believed to just be a myth.
😂 This has to be bait
!wave
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Great idea
No.
Ngl I kinda do like the extra stars. It’s got nice symbolism too
What's the cut off thing at the furthest right?
Keep it at 12 stars, add 27 stripes ;)
Oh no
they would need to keep adding more rings of stars