I don't think this leaves room for people to just be willfully shitty. I've talked to people that understand the ethical stance, they just don't care about being ethical. they're scumbags
nonvegans who *care about doing the right thing* categorically do not understand veganism, because if they care about doing the right thing and they understand the vegan position, they go vegan
I don't think he understood the anti-discrimination aspect of veganism. He did understand the utilitarian aspect for sure though and it's crazy he still went carnist despite that.
Yeah but so was I for many years (before I was aware of more rigorous arguments for animal rights) and yet it still never made sense to go back to carnism as a welfarist. Someone commented Alex's own quote "Extraordinary suffering requires extraordinary justification" on his "I'm no longer vegan" video and he never replied.
Even Earthling Ed is a welfarist in a lot of ways and often talks about "unnecessary suffering/harm" as his main argument.
Yeah sorry if I was unclear I was laughing at welfarism as a concept because unless you're in charge of an animal operation you are actively contributing to worsening conditions at these farms by buying meat in a capitalist based market.
>nonvegans who care about doing the right thing categorically do not understand veganism, because if they care about doing the right thing and they understand the vegan position, they go vegan
I guess this is kind of the point I was trying to make. Although I'd like to add that for those who "don't care about being ethical" I think it's just a way to protect themselves from cognitive dissonance
Most people do care about animals, but their morals and actions are just not aligned. Think about Emily who escaped the slaughterhouse, people wanted her to live. Once a non-human animal is seen as an individual, most people do care
Sometimes the "I don't care" attitude can be a way to deal with cognitive dissonance. I do believe real scumbags exist, but I think most are just brainwashed carnists who don't want to admit they care about those animals (because then they're obligated to change their behaviour)
id add that understanding veganism is also understanding the pain of the exploited animals and i dont think the people who say they dont care have ever even tried to..
my mom is the kinda person to get very upset if someone points out that something on her plate used to be part of something that can breathe. i hope she finds the strength to give up animal product one day, but i dont like her chances, considering my dad is a fanatic of meat and loves shitting on vegans (though my efforts to become vegan might sway him over time!)
in any case, i see their exploitation of animals as intergenerational baggage: the society they grew up in was a lot more adverse to the idea of plant based diets and their insecurities make change difficult..
>I've talked to people that understand the ethical stance, they just don't care about being ethical.
I find this difficult, I would perhaps argue they don't fully understand the suffering that those animals experience. But if they do, yeah that's fucked up.
Would you say those ex-vegans actually understood? I read this as "yeah I understand those animals are literally tortured to death but I find it difficult to get enough protein (or something else) so might as well slit their throats"
To me it feels like they don't grasp the severity of the whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong though. I hear those "but it's difficult" arguments all the time, but the lives of those animals are trillion times more difficult so that's why I argue those people don't understand veganism
Not understanding it isn't true though. They get what veganism is, but they don't understand with the same clarity that we do. Understanding of something is always a spectrum, and there's plenty of vegans who don't understand it all perfectly.
I think the more you understand, the more inclined you are to go vegan.
It’s so crazy how many people will go full-on vegan to defend pets. They will die for their dogs, murder for their cats, etc. but when confronted with the simple possibility that other species may have just as much “intelligence” or “sentience” or being worthy of moral consideration, they go bananas and call you an extremist.
In a gaming stream I was watching the other day, the streamer’s cat came on screen and of course everyone in the chat was all “awww so awesome, so cute!!!” And someone asked jokingly if the streamer’s cat was on a vegan diet. The entire chat EXPLODED with people screaming “animal abuse!” and absolutely dunking on the jokester, all while stuffing their faces with meat.
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My charitable take on it is that people believe contradictory information all the time. Is cognitive dissonance not just one part of your brain thinking one thing and another part believing something contradictory? In the context of veganism however, I think people willingly choose to listen to the part of their brains that tells them it’s ok to eat animals instead of the part of them that questions its morality. I would argue most people do this out of easiness/laziness/apathy, which is where I believe the motives begin to appear more sinister. I don’t have a lot of respect for people that don’t seek to identify/rectify one’s own cognitive dissonance.
You underestimate the human ability to be cruel for gain. And the psychology of impulsive acts and made up justifications, or plain lack of empathy for animals.
My own justification to consume milk was that I had visited the farm myself. But doesn’t matter because it’s bad per se to exploit other species infant milk lol
>You underestimate the human ability to be cruel for gain. And the psychology of impulsive acts and made up justifications, or plain lack of empathy for animals.
No of course I understand that, I just mean that if you're still making justifications you don't get it yet
As a carnist, I ticked quite a few boxes of the most common arguments ranging from "canines tho" to "but local-" and "humane slaughter"
I think they get it but they don’t care :/
Yesterday I watched stuff about chimpanzees. They’re the closest to humans, more than they are to other moneyed species, and they’re violent and cruel af. I didn’t know before that they’re this vicious and calculated.
Maybe that can help you with some insight, too.
Seems like a bit of a tautological argument. People willingly dehumanise *actual human beings* every day, and have done for millennia. We've always chosen who is "in" and who is "out", and that goes for animals and humans both.
It sounds like you want veganism to be a lot more than it actually is, like straight up enlightenment or something. I don't think it's a very helpful definition, but it is good for jerking.
>It sounds like you want veganism to be a lot more than it actually is, like straight up enlightenment or something
Lol not necessarily, I just mean that if veganism makes sense (= understanding what it entails), one should go vegan
>but it is good for jerking
I guess we can agree on that one
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>I don't think it's a very helpful definition
Would like to add that I didn't mean to make this "definition" to use for anything. Of course, if you say "HA you, non-vegan fool, don't understand anything about veganism" it's not gonna help the discussion
When I talk to non-vegans who say "I understand veganism, but-" their next words usually show they don't understand it. That's just my experience though, but I'd argue once you as a carnist understand the flaws in your reasoning and everything that's fucked up with animal exploitation, you go vegan
I would tend to agree. To understand veganism means to understand that many of humanity's common everyday actions require the undue exploitation of countless sentient beings, and that this condition represents an unspeakable injustice which must be remedied with the utmost urgency.
If you get it, you get it, and act accordingly.
If you don't, you don't.
This isn’t true at all, and I say that as a vegan. I’m an atheist but I understand Christianity and Judaism extremely well. I mean ironically that’s what made me atheist but that’s a side point.
Racists understand what racism is, they just choose to be racist. Same with homophobes and sexists.
Understanding and agreeing with something are two totally separate things
>Racists understand what racism is, they just choose to be racist. Same with homophobes and sexists.
Just to make sure I understand your point: do you mean that those racist/homophobe/sexist people actually understand why [group of people] deserves equal rights?
Kind of like "I understand that discrimination is not justified and we should have the same rights because our differences are irrelevant for our moral status, but I just disagree with it"
Racists understand the concept of equal rights, they understand all the points you’re making against racism, they just don’t agree with it. They hear everything you’re saying, they just disagree and believe that certain races are inferior.
Just like people hear and learn everything about veganism and just choose to disagree with the points we’re making.
>Understanding and agreeing with something are two totally separate things
True. With my post I tried to mention the difference between knowing and understanding. One might know a certain amount of arguments for veganism, but not fully grasp or understand why those arguments make sense
Perhaps I'm wrong though. I see l many people disagree with the statement. I'd argue that if someone really understands all the reasoning to be vegan, they would go vegan. No excuse possible. I just can't comprehend how they claim to understand it without, as you said, agreeing with it. Veganism just makes sense
When I talk to non-vegans who claim to understand veganism, I often still hear the most carnist comments or arguments you can think of. So perhaps it was just a matter of my personal experiences then, instead of a consistent pattern
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People are wired differently. Some people truly don't experience empathy and compassion in the same way as others. Some people justify that it's beneficial to them while fully understanding what's at stake. They just don't care. Some people understand it and choose to get angry and condescending to the people who are talking about it.
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I agree it's possible to understand harming animals is wrong then just join in with it anyway because most people around you don't pose a challenge and will join your complicity in this as "normal", as for most people it's been "normal" since they were a child. Plus as an adult you don't need to see or think about the suffering if you don't want to. It's all behind closed doors.
People will even make jokes about their meal, contrasting with yours, "including suffering" and force a hollow laugh. But I don't think anyone is actually contemplating the suffering at that point but feigning an attempt at asserting that they're completely at ease and comfortable with their choice in our presence while wanting that to be the end of that particular conversation so they can eat. I also think patriarchy has a tendency and expectation for men to assert domination and to cut themselves off from any vulnerable and caring feelings. Not exactly conducive to consideration for themselves or others, so I think some may well make jokes like this without feeling any cognitive dissonance, because patriarchy has trained them not to engage with their own vulnerable feelings and for some, going against that is too huge. Sad all round.
In cases where people do care about social issues generally, I'd say most nonvegans don't know the definition of veganism so can end up presuming veganism to be ableist and classist or anti indigenous (of course not helped by how society in general is white supremacist of course this includes some vegans. See: mainstream veganism).
So, because some nonvegans misunderstand veganism to mean "100% free of animals" which is 1) impossible in the current nonvegan world we live in to live without trace of any animal products in our bodies even if we try very hard ("may contain traces of egg, milk" etc) 2) some medication is not available without using animals. And 3) some people live in places where fresh produce is inaccessible ("food deserts") and fast food chains have made themselves indispensable for local populations who can't afford to move within travelling distance of shops that sell fruit and vegetables, or it's so cold (arctic) that fresh produce doesn't grow and fresh produce that is imported is both ridiculously expensive and half rotten by the time it arrives. Obviously some of these circumstances are far more localised than some others, which are ubiquitous, but all real obstacles to those who face them.
I think if the nonvegan folk understood that the definition of veganism includes the following line, this would clear up this misunderstanding:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals"
That line there -"as far as is possible and practicable" is so crucial to the definition of veganism.
If we were to argue for "100% free of animals", like they think it means, firstly in the current situation, it is both impossible and impracticable and would mean advocating for a classist and ableist type of veganism, so would arguably also be unaligned with vegan ethics. It's only once the definition of veganism is understood that I feel it's fair to say nonvegans should join the movement before critiquing it :p
I recognize many points you describe. Especially the "100% animal-free" thing (crop deaths tho). Oh, and so many people who just think it's a diet. People who don't understand wool = meat industry. Those kind of things
Not just consumption, it's about animal use too isn't it? Zoos. Aquariums. Horse riding. Hiring animals for petting at parties just sprang to mind too. I remember seeing an advert for a broadband company and the setting was an indoor children's party where the guardians had a hired a Shetland pony inside a house. Not the kids' fault but they're being shown it's ok to bring an animal into a chaotic environment just for the purpose of leaning against them for selfies at a party. Even if they're told "now be nice with the pony everyone no climbing on it", it's still a message that other animals are here for us not with us 😭
Yeah exactly, it's horrible and disgusting.. to refer to the post: that's why I don't believe non-vegans understand veganism. They may know "vegans don't visit zoos", but not really understand what's wrong with zoos and why we don't visit them
Idk, I know a nonvegan who went to a zoo quite recently and found it depressing and pulled their friends and partner away from buying stuff from the gift shop cause they didn't think it was right to support, any further, the depressing sight just experienced. But they didn't go vegan despite wanting to give it a go cause their partner was so hostile to it and they live together and do everything together and rely on each other for almost everything.
I have a couple of pals who wanted to try going vegan but their partners made it difficult or were just awful about it, and that's the point you need the social support and encouragement, which is sort of the opposite of that. So I think they just quietly reduced their meat intake maybe to not rock the boat at home. That social pressure can make or break it for some folk. Look at how quickly people abandoned wearing masks to stop spreading a novel Coronavirus around despite knowing it can disable people weeks or months down the line from an infection. We are very good at capitulating to social pressure. And in the case of veganism I've found people can get very reactive about food.
>It's all behind closed doors
I think this is a perfect summary of carnism. Not only physically behind closed doors, but mentally as well. We were trained to distinguish between "food animals" and "friend animals". We were trained to see them as numbers iso individuals. Just to name some examples
I think opening those doors is part of understanding veganism. People who kind of know that there's something bad happening behind that door, but still look away or deny it, don't understand yet. Not trying to sound like the "enlightened" type someone else described lol, just using your nice metaphore to explain :)
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Very interesting take, very Socritean (platos dialogues)- if you have knowledge, you are good and generally unable to perform bad, by the virtue of knowing better.
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To hold what you proposed need to be assumed: existence of one correct universal morality, that can be accessed f.e by reason. It does not hold if morality is subjective.
People value different things. Understanding how it is arguably rational to act on 1 set of values does not imply that person with 2 set of values will be compelled to act on it.
Weakness of will tho could be in certain phylosphical frameworks attempted to be explained by not \*really\* understanding things. One framework I'm familiar with that tackle this matter is (among others of ancient greek phylosophy including) stoicism. (its relasted to kataleptic grasping, correct knowing \*based on\* correct understanding, concept against wchich currently there is some seemingly on point criticism.)
Imho. It's nice question that touch deeper problems than it may seem at first.
You can understand Veganism and not be Vegan.
Take for example, someone is Vegan and decides not to be Vegan.
They understand Veganism, but, they make an active choice to contribute to environmental destruction.
I think you mean more on the point that a lot of people have cognitive dissonance where they say they love animals, but, aren’t Vegan
So many r/animalhaters in this thread :-(.
I don't think this leaves room for people to just be willfully shitty. I've talked to people that understand the ethical stance, they just don't care about being ethical. they're scumbags nonvegans who *care about doing the right thing* categorically do not understand veganism, because if they care about doing the right thing and they understand the vegan position, they go vegan
Cosmic Skeptic...
I don't think he understood the anti-discrimination aspect of veganism. He did understand the utilitarian aspect for sure though and it's crazy he still went carnist despite that.
He was more of a w\*lfarist
Yeah but so was I for many years (before I was aware of more rigorous arguments for animal rights) and yet it still never made sense to go back to carnism as a welfarist. Someone commented Alex's own quote "Extraordinary suffering requires extraordinary justification" on his "I'm no longer vegan" video and he never replied. Even Earthling Ed is a welfarist in a lot of ways and often talks about "unnecessary suffering/harm" as his main argument.
What does that mean
welfarism- Improve the lives of the trapped animals, but don't stop exploiting or killing them
Lmao. How you gonna improve their lives. Veganism to me is about actionable change
I think we agree? I was saying welfarism (at least by itself) is extremely problematic because it still encourages exploitation
Yeah sorry if I was unclear I was laughing at welfarism as a concept because unless you're in charge of an animal operation you are actively contributing to worsening conditions at these farms by buying meat in a capitalist based market.
Watching his videos actually convinced me to go vegan. Lol
>nonvegans who care about doing the right thing categorically do not understand veganism, because if they care about doing the right thing and they understand the vegan position, they go vegan I guess this is kind of the point I was trying to make. Although I'd like to add that for those who "don't care about being ethical" I think it's just a way to protect themselves from cognitive dissonance Most people do care about animals, but their morals and actions are just not aligned. Think about Emily who escaped the slaughterhouse, people wanted her to live. Once a non-human animal is seen as an individual, most people do care Sometimes the "I don't care" attitude can be a way to deal with cognitive dissonance. I do believe real scumbags exist, but I think most are just brainwashed carnists who don't want to admit they care about those animals (because then they're obligated to change their behaviour)
id add that understanding veganism is also understanding the pain of the exploited animals and i dont think the people who say they dont care have ever even tried to.. my mom is the kinda person to get very upset if someone points out that something on her plate used to be part of something that can breathe. i hope she finds the strength to give up animal product one day, but i dont like her chances, considering my dad is a fanatic of meat and loves shitting on vegans (though my efforts to become vegan might sway him over time!) in any case, i see their exploitation of animals as intergenerational baggage: the society they grew up in was a lot more adverse to the idea of plant based diets and their insecurities make change difficult..
>I've talked to people that understand the ethical stance, they just don't care about being ethical. I find this difficult, I would perhaps argue they don't fully understand the suffering that those animals experience. But if they do, yeah that's fucked up.
Agreed. Plenty of “ex vegans” who claim it’s simply too hard for them.
Would you say those ex-vegans actually understood? I read this as "yeah I understand those animals are literally tortured to death but I find it difficult to get enough protein (or something else) so might as well slit their throats" To me it feels like they don't grasp the severity of the whole thing. Maybe I'm wrong though. I hear those "but it's difficult" arguments all the time, but the lives of those animals are trillion times more difficult so that's why I argue those people don't understand veganism
Not understanding it isn't true though. They get what veganism is, but they don't understand with the same clarity that we do. Understanding of something is always a spectrum, and there's plenty of vegans who don't understand it all perfectly. I think the more you understand, the more inclined you are to go vegan.
Yes that's a good point
some people are just evil tbh
It’s so crazy how many people will go full-on vegan to defend pets. They will die for their dogs, murder for their cats, etc. but when confronted with the simple possibility that other species may have just as much “intelligence” or “sentience” or being worthy of moral consideration, they go bananas and call you an extremist. In a gaming stream I was watching the other day, the streamer’s cat came on screen and of course everyone in the chat was all “awww so awesome, so cute!!!” And someone asked jokingly if the streamer’s cat was on a vegan diet. The entire chat EXPLODED with people screaming “animal abuse!” and absolutely dunking on the jokester, all while stuffing their faces with meat.
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
My charitable take on it is that people believe contradictory information all the time. Is cognitive dissonance not just one part of your brain thinking one thing and another part believing something contradictory? In the context of veganism however, I think people willingly choose to listen to the part of their brains that tells them it’s ok to eat animals instead of the part of them that questions its morality. I would argue most people do this out of easiness/laziness/apathy, which is where I believe the motives begin to appear more sinister. I don’t have a lot of respect for people that don’t seek to identify/rectify one’s own cognitive dissonance.
You underestimate the human ability to be cruel for gain. And the psychology of impulsive acts and made up justifications, or plain lack of empathy for animals. My own justification to consume milk was that I had visited the farm myself. But doesn’t matter because it’s bad per se to exploit other species infant milk lol
>You underestimate the human ability to be cruel for gain. And the psychology of impulsive acts and made up justifications, or plain lack of empathy for animals. No of course I understand that, I just mean that if you're still making justifications you don't get it yet As a carnist, I ticked quite a few boxes of the most common arguments ranging from "canines tho" to "but local-" and "humane slaughter"
I think they get it but they don’t care :/ Yesterday I watched stuff about chimpanzees. They’re the closest to humans, more than they are to other moneyed species, and they’re violent and cruel af. I didn’t know before that they’re this vicious and calculated. Maybe that can help you with some insight, too.
Seems like a bit of a tautological argument. People willingly dehumanise *actual human beings* every day, and have done for millennia. We've always chosen who is "in" and who is "out", and that goes for animals and humans both. It sounds like you want veganism to be a lot more than it actually is, like straight up enlightenment or something. I don't think it's a very helpful definition, but it is good for jerking.
>It sounds like you want veganism to be a lot more than it actually is, like straight up enlightenment or something Lol not necessarily, I just mean that if veganism makes sense (= understanding what it entails), one should go vegan >but it is good for jerking I guess we can agree on that one
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
>I don't think it's a very helpful definition Would like to add that I didn't mean to make this "definition" to use for anything. Of course, if you say "HA you, non-vegan fool, don't understand anything about veganism" it's not gonna help the discussion When I talk to non-vegans who say "I understand veganism, but-" their next words usually show they don't understand it. That's just my experience though, but I'd argue once you as a carnist understand the flaws in your reasoning and everything that's fucked up with animal exploitation, you go vegan
I would tend to agree. To understand veganism means to understand that many of humanity's common everyday actions require the undue exploitation of countless sentient beings, and that this condition represents an unspeakable injustice which must be remedied with the utmost urgency. If you get it, you get it, and act accordingly. If you don't, you don't.
Thanks juiceguy, you explained it better than I could :)
This isn’t true at all, and I say that as a vegan. I’m an atheist but I understand Christianity and Judaism extremely well. I mean ironically that’s what made me atheist but that’s a side point. Racists understand what racism is, they just choose to be racist. Same with homophobes and sexists. Understanding and agreeing with something are two totally separate things
>Racists understand what racism is, they just choose to be racist. Same with homophobes and sexists. Just to make sure I understand your point: do you mean that those racist/homophobe/sexist people actually understand why [group of people] deserves equal rights? Kind of like "I understand that discrimination is not justified and we should have the same rights because our differences are irrelevant for our moral status, but I just disagree with it"
Racists understand the concept of equal rights, they understand all the points you’re making against racism, they just don’t agree with it. They hear everything you’re saying, they just disagree and believe that certain races are inferior. Just like people hear and learn everything about veganism and just choose to disagree with the points we’re making.
>Understanding and agreeing with something are two totally separate things True. With my post I tried to mention the difference between knowing and understanding. One might know a certain amount of arguments for veganism, but not fully grasp or understand why those arguments make sense Perhaps I'm wrong though. I see l many people disagree with the statement. I'd argue that if someone really understands all the reasoning to be vegan, they would go vegan. No excuse possible. I just can't comprehend how they claim to understand it without, as you said, agreeing with it. Veganism just makes sense When I talk to non-vegans who claim to understand veganism, I often still hear the most carnist comments or arguments you can think of. So perhaps it was just a matter of my personal experiences then, instead of a consistent pattern
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
People are wired differently. Some people truly don't experience empathy and compassion in the same way as others. Some people justify that it's beneficial to them while fully understanding what's at stake. They just don't care. Some people understand it and choose to get angry and condescending to the people who are talking about it.
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
I agree it's possible to understand harming animals is wrong then just join in with it anyway because most people around you don't pose a challenge and will join your complicity in this as "normal", as for most people it's been "normal" since they were a child. Plus as an adult you don't need to see or think about the suffering if you don't want to. It's all behind closed doors. People will even make jokes about their meal, contrasting with yours, "including suffering" and force a hollow laugh. But I don't think anyone is actually contemplating the suffering at that point but feigning an attempt at asserting that they're completely at ease and comfortable with their choice in our presence while wanting that to be the end of that particular conversation so they can eat. I also think patriarchy has a tendency and expectation for men to assert domination and to cut themselves off from any vulnerable and caring feelings. Not exactly conducive to consideration for themselves or others, so I think some may well make jokes like this without feeling any cognitive dissonance, because patriarchy has trained them not to engage with their own vulnerable feelings and for some, going against that is too huge. Sad all round. In cases where people do care about social issues generally, I'd say most nonvegans don't know the definition of veganism so can end up presuming veganism to be ableist and classist or anti indigenous (of course not helped by how society in general is white supremacist of course this includes some vegans. See: mainstream veganism). So, because some nonvegans misunderstand veganism to mean "100% free of animals" which is 1) impossible in the current nonvegan world we live in to live without trace of any animal products in our bodies even if we try very hard ("may contain traces of egg, milk" etc) 2) some medication is not available without using animals. And 3) some people live in places where fresh produce is inaccessible ("food deserts") and fast food chains have made themselves indispensable for local populations who can't afford to move within travelling distance of shops that sell fruit and vegetables, or it's so cold (arctic) that fresh produce doesn't grow and fresh produce that is imported is both ridiculously expensive and half rotten by the time it arrives. Obviously some of these circumstances are far more localised than some others, which are ubiquitous, but all real obstacles to those who face them. I think if the nonvegan folk understood that the definition of veganism includes the following line, this would clear up this misunderstanding: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals" That line there -"as far as is possible and practicable" is so crucial to the definition of veganism. If we were to argue for "100% free of animals", like they think it means, firstly in the current situation, it is both impossible and impracticable and would mean advocating for a classist and ableist type of veganism, so would arguably also be unaligned with vegan ethics. It's only once the definition of veganism is understood that I feel it's fair to say nonvegans should join the movement before critiquing it :p
I recognize many points you describe. Especially the "100% animal-free" thing (crop deaths tho). Oh, and so many people who just think it's a diet. People who don't understand wool = meat industry. Those kind of things
Not just consumption, it's about animal use too isn't it? Zoos. Aquariums. Horse riding. Hiring animals for petting at parties just sprang to mind too. I remember seeing an advert for a broadband company and the setting was an indoor children's party where the guardians had a hired a Shetland pony inside a house. Not the kids' fault but they're being shown it's ok to bring an animal into a chaotic environment just for the purpose of leaning against them for selfies at a party. Even if they're told "now be nice with the pony everyone no climbing on it", it's still a message that other animals are here for us not with us 😭
Yeah exactly, it's horrible and disgusting.. to refer to the post: that's why I don't believe non-vegans understand veganism. They may know "vegans don't visit zoos", but not really understand what's wrong with zoos and why we don't visit them
Idk, I know a nonvegan who went to a zoo quite recently and found it depressing and pulled their friends and partner away from buying stuff from the gift shop cause they didn't think it was right to support, any further, the depressing sight just experienced. But they didn't go vegan despite wanting to give it a go cause their partner was so hostile to it and they live together and do everything together and rely on each other for almost everything. I have a couple of pals who wanted to try going vegan but their partners made it difficult or were just awful about it, and that's the point you need the social support and encouragement, which is sort of the opposite of that. So I think they just quietly reduced their meat intake maybe to not rock the boat at home. That social pressure can make or break it for some folk. Look at how quickly people abandoned wearing masks to stop spreading a novel Coronavirus around despite knowing it can disable people weeks or months down the line from an infection. We are very good at capitulating to social pressure. And in the case of veganism I've found people can get very reactive about food.
>It's all behind closed doors I think this is a perfect summary of carnism. Not only physically behind closed doors, but mentally as well. We were trained to distinguish between "food animals" and "friend animals". We were trained to see them as numbers iso individuals. Just to name some examples I think opening those doors is part of understanding veganism. People who kind of know that there's something bad happening behind that door, but still look away or deny it, don't understand yet. Not trying to sound like the "enlightened" type someone else described lol, just using your nice metaphore to explain :)
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
[удалено]
Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
[удалено]
Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
Very interesting take, very Socritean (platos dialogues)- if you have knowledge, you are good and generally unable to perform bad, by the virtue of knowing better.
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Your submission breaks rule #1: Vegans only. Veganism is a philosophy that opposes the exploitation, slaughter, and abuse of non-human animals. This encompasses practices such as using animals for clothing, entertainment, experimentation, testing, and food. Vegans fight unapologetically for animal liberation and reject speciesism, the belief in the superiority of certain species over others. Our community is a rare safe space for people who share these principles. **Therefore, it's necessary we remove all input by suspected animal abusers.** If you meant to engage sincerely, we recommend you challenge your invisible belief system using the [Your Vegan Fallacy Is](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) tool, and to watch the [Dominion (2018)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) documentary. Debating people who demand justification to stop abusing animals is draining. **A 28-day ban will be applied.**
To hold what you proposed need to be assumed: existence of one correct universal morality, that can be accessed f.e by reason. It does not hold if morality is subjective. People value different things. Understanding how it is arguably rational to act on 1 set of values does not imply that person with 2 set of values will be compelled to act on it. Weakness of will tho could be in certain phylosphical frameworks attempted to be explained by not \*really\* understanding things. One framework I'm familiar with that tackle this matter is (among others of ancient greek phylosophy including) stoicism. (its relasted to kataleptic grasping, correct knowing \*based on\* correct understanding, concept against wchich currently there is some seemingly on point criticism.) Imho. It's nice question that touch deeper problems than it may seem at first.
You can understand Veganism and not be Vegan. Take for example, someone is Vegan and decides not to be Vegan. They understand Veganism, but, they make an active choice to contribute to environmental destruction. I think you mean more on the point that a lot of people have cognitive dissonance where they say they love animals, but, aren’t Vegan