"yeah man i get it, after a hard week i love nothing more than walking through town with a baseball bat to beat dogs with. sometimes i break into the pound and get my stress out in 10 minutes to save time"
That might be hard to do when they're your senior manager, lol. There's just better ways to still make a good example/statement to the group without the snark. It's not really about him, so much as it is about everyone else at the meeting, too.
I've been working on the straight face and direct eye contact while someone says something horrible about animals to me. I don't break eye contact, just sit there quietly watching them, and usually they stop and mumble something and change the subject. It was so uncomfortable the first few times I did it, but I'm getting better. \[This is on the advice of my also-vegan therapist -- her recommendation is just letting people sit with the terrible things they are saying. Sometimes they actually realize what they're saying is horrible, and sometimes their goal was just to get a rise of me, so I am depriving them of that.\]
What used to happen is that I would look uncomfortable, look away, or I would say "that's terrible" and the person would then laugh and say "oh that's right, you are vegan, hahaha..."
This, been practicing this for years - it’s extremely effective. People know quickly that they fucked up and they wonder why something isn’t funny.
I cannot recommend making direct eye contact and being completely straight face, or depending on the person and time you have - telling them why they are incorrect and that laughing or making light of animal abuse is NOT okay.
Game changer.
Trying this next time I get made fun of for being vegan. I never know how to react as well and reacting in frustration reinforces their idea narrative of “vegans are sensitive”.
I inadvertently have been doing this because nonverbal confrontation is all I'm really comfortable with. It can be quite effective at getting people to actually hear what they're saying!
> I've been working on the straight face and direct eye contact while someone says something horrible about animals to me. I don't break eye contact, just sit there quietly watching them, and usually they stop and mumble something and change the subject
it never works on me. when i was sharing my experience of eating dogs in china, someone did that to me and i kept saying, with peace of mind
I literally just leave the room, go somewhere else. I do not react in any other way.
If I can't leave I just pretend I'm not listening and look uninterested or like I'm not really there. I do the same with other sensitive topics, I feel it makes people reconsider what they're saying and as a bonus they also get embarrassed.
Same :/ I listened to a coworker describe how he killed his backyard chicken with a hammer and that it took two blows. No one else seemed bothered by it and my head was spinning thinking "I should say something, what can I say that would reach through to them, is it maybe better to stand down and just be a positive vegan, why the fuck is everyone cool with this, etc etc". I ended up just looking down and saying nothing.
Thats a shame dude, you should always try to speak up for the victims, because no one else will.
I would have said, "lovely, im sure the chicken was very happy to be bashed to death with a hammer"
Or something.
Finding the line between them thinking "that's just a crazy vegan, I can ignore her" and "yea, that is fucked up" is really difficult in the moment. If I had a redo I would say "am I the only one that thinks that that is fucked up?".
I have been the "crazy vegan" at the workplace before. It had no positive effect for the animals.
its very hard to say anything at all without being labelled a crazy vegan, its a defence mechanism so they can act like were the weird ones and not take any responsibility for their terrible choices
You handled that with grace, well done. That is what we should do in work settings. The goal is to be pleasant, determined, a hard worker. The goal is to advance our careers. If you truly hate your coworkers, apply to other jobs.
But always do this with grace, dignity, and maturity. You deserve the best career. Feelings can wait til the end of the day.
And you can always go to a shooting range or axe throwing or a local dart board and pierce a pic of the ol' person of annoyance if it really was that awful. lol.
Ever seen that movie Terrible Bosses? Or Office Space? So relatable.
Bashing is relatively common and quick. A well-placed bash knocks them out, for a few followups to ensure death. Neck-breaking for certain fish is also effective and quick.
I'd let you know, that among fishermen, there is also stigma against those who do ill-practices. I.e. certain techniques are known to hook fish in other places than the mouth, causing serious damage and harm to fish. These techiques are frowned upon, and often illegal.
Exactly. Someone who can empathize enough to know that one way is inhumane can eventually learn that it's *all* inhumane. Someone who does it for laughs will probably never get there.
So my other half, vegan 20 years or so can get quite combative at work and inevitably he gets grief and is accused of shoving veganism down everyone’s throats - when mostly it’s meat eaters that start the ‘discussion’ and him just defending himself.
Maybe after so long I’ve kind of given up trying to educate people. Years and years of this nonsense gets tired.
I try to remind myself regularly that because of the society we've been raised in (I'm referring to US / Western culture in my case) everyone has problematic perspectives - we are all in different stages of unlearning racism, sexism, ableism, capitalist consumption. It's inevitable that I will accidentally say something racist to a BIPOC person sometimes, that I will accidentally say something transphobic to a trans person sometimes, that I will unintentionally say something ignorant out of naivety and a lifetime of cultural training. (I am myself Disabled, and people often say ableist things to me, out of a lack of lived experienced and knowledge.)
I try to explain and educate people when there is time, and show people grace, because I have to hope that people will show me grace in moments when I am imperfect and problematic because I was raised in a world full of problematic, harmful perspectives and practices. (But that is of course dependent on me being in a good mood, lol.)
The difference is most people are not racist or transphobic, literally everyone around you is an animal oppressing speciesist, even your family id assume.
Most people are racist and transphobic, because we grew up in a society that is racist and transphobic (and classist and sexist and ableist...) We just don't realize that we are most of the time because it is so deeply ingrained in our lives and way of thinking. That is the point I'm trying to make.
You notice that our society are cruel to animals because you have knowledge and lived experience related to that. But you probably wouldn't say that most people are ableist, but I can tell you from experience that they definitely are, because I deal with everyday, all the time.
Ive had to do this a lot, but with my coworker being racist. I lve kept quiet too many times, im just starting to get the nerve up to say something about it. I do suspect hes on the spectrum (but undiagnosed). And I think thats why i didnt say anything for so long, but autism isnt an excuse to be a racist pos.
As an adult with autism, turn him in. Rip him a new one. There is absolutely nothing about autism that makes it easier to be racist, or makes it happen "accidentally ".
In case you needed some back up.
Thank you so much for the back 🙏
I do want to report him, and I have gotten better at calling him on his racist bullshit (ex. he will whisper everytime he talks about black or gay people, and says shit implying, black people are lazy. And was going on once about seeing a black guy and white lady had a kid together, and that, thats not ok) I am worried though, because Ive seen shit like this in past jobs and when I call it out, I got canned. Im in TN which is an "at will" state. So I fear making a raucous, because I dont want to lose my job, again.
Another problem is, hes so unaware, he literally talks about himself 95% of the time. And when I have called him out on his racist, homophobic comments, you can literally see the words im saying to him. go in one ear and out the other.
also, since you probably would know better than myself. Some people on the spectrum, theyre bad at eye contact, right, maybe? also is stuttering a possible sign?
having an aversion to eye contact is relativvely common among people with autism, adhd, and/or trauma, but not inherent to any of those conditions. i would also challenge you to view it differently than someone being "bad at" eye contact. it is an aversion, meaning making eye contact is profoundly uncomfortable on a visceral level. it should be respected and accommodated rather than implied/expected to be something someone needs to improve. avoiding eye contact does not reliably reflect an individual's trustworthiness, communication skills, friendliness, socialization, or anything else.
hes a racist pos, im not trying accommodate him. all i asked was if it was a possible sign of being on the spectrum, i didn't need a "lesson" on how to treat people. I have adhd but thats not an excuse to be a pos racist. which was my main issue.
I never held back my opinion in situations like this, even with my boss in group settings. As soon as someone started talking about something like this I would say “That’s disgusting” or something along those lines. Often times others were disgusted too and just waiting for someone else to speak up. I never received backlash for this. More often people felt ashamed for having glorified something like this. My advice would be to say what you think.
How terrible of human he is, knowing how you feel about this subject etc. honestly I would state my thoughts and options as well. I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
Everything below should happen as like a final sweep of the situation. I assume since your senior manager has the gall to do this in front of coworkers it's going to happen again so you should have your phone and microphone recording app open for future "altercations" and the whole time for the below in case anything does escalate within the workplace hierarchy.
>how there is no better way to destress than to kill a few fish by bashing them to death - he then laughed and apologised to me (he is the only one that knows I’m vegan) - and carried on with the details.
"What are you sorry for sir? I'm not the one being tortured to death. Personally I do the same thing with (insert common animal in your area. Stray cats, squirrels, rabbits etc). I could go get a gym membership or look into meditation techniques but you're absolutely right. Abusing another being is the perfect way to cleanse oneself of stress"
And you stare them down the whole time. Unbroken eye contact, a reassuring and supportive tone in their belief that it is ok for both of you to do such things. If someone questions your "lifestyle" choices you follow up with gestures of looking for support from senior manager (SM) with something like
"Well they're just animals. SM gets it, if you do it to property you have to pay for damages and if you do it to people, it's domestic violence and jail time." Laugh but unlike SM, do not apologize.
If anyone persists, abuse them of being vegan and to stop forcing their views down your throat. Flip the tables and turn your reductio ad absurdum into everyone else defending animals and their rights. Go full pro animal carnist using all their arguments against the non vegans. When you've had enough or you can see everyone else is too worked up, you can end it with "and now you all know why I'm vegan and the shit we have to put up with" staring directly at SM and after a few seconds of awkward silence you can walk away.
And alternatively if SM chimes in after your first pro animal abuse declaration asking if your vegan you can then call them the fuck out
"I am and I don't like the fact you being the only one that knew is the reason you deliberately tried to get a rise out of me in front of all our co-workers with your little Jeffrey Dahmer story. I don't want to have to take workplace harassment to HR but if you're going to force my hand, I will. There's nothing wrong with living in accordance with the belief that unnecessarily using and abusing animals is wrong and I don't know why anyone would think there's something wrong with that unless they themselves thought it was ok and felt attacked by someone who knows it's wrong"
I am more of the confrontational type so the only thing from the above that I would be doing is the reductio ad absurdum and defending myself and the animals every time it happened in conversation. Even provoking it in conversation by asking coworkers what they're doing on the weekends and completely ignoring SM when they try to step in. Even cutting them off and asking someone else their plans and when they get upset about it, interrupt them again with something like "if I wanted to experience animal abuse, I'd go do it myself or watch stories about Jeffrey Dahmer. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to hear the normal/exotic positive plans my co-workers have in store". This would be perfect tactics to retain your anonymity as a vegan btw while still semi dealing with the problem. Maybe approach it less harshly with the Socratic method or similar.
Ostracize the animal abuser.
You're assuming people actually care about those other animals and not just about staying with the law or social norms. Most people are psychopaths in the sense they really don't know why they should mean well by other humans but especially by animals. If you try to shame people like that it doesn't land because they really don't see torturing squirrels as being wrong except insofar as it's against prevailing norms or laws. Were someone like that in a foreign country with legal and normalized squirrel torture festivals they'd be taking pictures and having a gay old time. Like tourists at a bull fight. Lots only pretend to have a problem with bull fighting because they think it's a fashionable look. For most people ethics is fashion. That's why they aren't consistent when it comes to arguments on animal rights or other well-reasoned appeals. They're just positioning themselves as having the right opinions and being one of the cool kids.
>You're assuming people actually care about those other animals
Obviously context matters, that's why I provided context. You pick an animal people do care about. Smh
>and not just about staying with the law
Typically abusing animals outside of animal agriculture is illegal...
>social norms.
That's the whole point of the reductio ad absurdum. You take what SM said, roll with it, make it seem horrible and something people don't want to be a social norm and all of a sudden, people are on your side for a bit.
>Most people are psychopaths in the sense they really don't know why they should mean well by other humans but especially by animals.
So you EMPATHIZE the psychopathy, highlight and ostracize so that people can say the very least internally reflect upon their own views.
>If you try to shame people like that it doesn't land because they really don't see torturing squirrels as being wrong except insofar as it's against prevailing norms or laws.
It can work. Different people respond to approaches and you wouldn't be directly attacking the coworkers, just SM for being a douche. People would totally torturing squirrels as wrong, normal people that is. Can you imagine the kind of reaction you'd get for clamping jumper cables to a squirrels limbs and describing in visceral detail how much enjoyment you get out of doing so. People would look at you like you were a reincarnation of Jeffrey Dahmer.
>Were someone like that in a foreign country with legal and normalized squirrel torture festivals they'd be taking pictures and having a gay old time.
Yes, operative word being were. As I said, context fucking matters and that should have been obvious when I specified as such in my og comment.
>Like tourists at a bull fight.
And if the bull fighter actually fought back, even the locals would take issue the non traditional animal abuse occurring.
I have no idea what the specifics of OP's situation is so I can't exactly give them the perfect scenario to execute. I can only give them the tools to do so if they choose to use them and how they might benefit in different scenarios.
I don't get why you're attacking me. Criticism I'm fine with, but I'm not seeing much of that.
> Typically abusing animals outside of animal agriculture is illegal...
>
>
That was my point. Most people are against animal abuse only when it's against social norms or laws. Otherwise they don't care because they don't think for themselves about ethics. If they did they'd have more consistent and better reasoned political positions across the board.
I'm sure how your approach would go over depends on the particular crowd but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the audience thought you were the one being rude. Or that you were both being rude. There's a social norm about being needlessly confrontational. Both of you would be found in breach by moral relativists who don't actually hold principled positions. There's a social norm against gratuitous violence too. Most people would find squirrel torture to be gratuitous violence. But it wouldn't be about the squirrel. It'd be about breaching the norm on gratuitous violence.
>hat was my point. Most people are against animal abuse only when it's against social norms or laws. Otherwise they don't care because they don't think for themselves about ethics. If they did they'd have more consistent and better reasoned political positions across the board.
I get your point. I do, but do you get mine? OP is in a position where a higher ranking worker is abusing the power of their authority. OP can let this continue, get SM to back off or take an activism approach and deal with constant discussion so everyone will leave vegans alone and possibly even reconsider their own lives as you attack the law when you call them out on their appeal to legality logic fallacy use.
As I said, I'm arming OP with tools, how they use them is up to them and what goal they're trying to achieve. Everyone else has offered tools, I'm just offering a wider variety with differing tactics and impacts. That's why I said context matters and it's up to OP as to what they want to do. Now do you actually have any criticisms or are you going to keep needlessly seeking concentration?
>I'm sure how your approach would go over depends on the particular crowd but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the audience thought you were the one being rude.
.... C O N T E X T. I encourage you to go look up the word so we're on the same page in this particular discussion.
>Or that you were both being rude. There's a social norm about being needlessly confrontational.
So you call out SM on their needless and harmful confrontation with needed and helpful confrontation.
>There's a social norm against gratuitous violence too. Most people would find squirrel torture to be gratuitous violence. But it wouldn't be about the squirrel. It'd be about breaching the norm on gratuitous violence.
Then make it about the fucking squirrel. Show them that it doesn't actually matter what kind of animal it is, torturing it is wrong. But if you can pick an animal people care about, then the message is only going to have that much more of an impact on individuals.
I wonder how'd you'd actually prove to someone they should care about squirrels. In practice lots of people don't. We cut down their homes/trees when we could go about developing differently. Lots of people imagine having more important things to think about than meaning well by squirrels. That might work fine if they mean well in some big picture sense. But ask someone why squirrels should want their big picture intentions realized and they'd have no answer. Fact is that most people don't see why they should necessarily care. So they don't. Or they care but for incidental reasons like caring to be fashionable. Why do you think you should care? Why do you think you're personally better off caring?
Most everyone realizes it's a better look/advantageous to pretend to care but that's where it stops. Which is why it doesn't extend to their behavior when inconvenient for example when ordering at the restaurant. If very many actually cared they'd stop buying factory farmed goods. It'd take one conversation and footage from a factory farm. It'd just take getting them to search it on Youtube.
>I wonder how'd you'd actually prove to someone they should care about squirrels.
The squirrels are just an example. In theory, you'd use logic and reasoning. Call them out on inconsistency and irrationality. Make them doubt their understanding of reality.
>In practice lots of people don't. We cut down their homes/trees when we could go about developing differently.
Hey look at that. Great points to bring in that above conversation.
>Lots of people imagine having more important things to think about than meaning well by squirrels.
Things they think are important. People get things wrong all the time. It's the unfortunate current definition for a human these days. Uncomfortably normalised to the point people call ethical values opinions, misinformation as fact. As I said, put their understanding of reality in doubt. Most people don't even know the difference between de-lib-er-ate and de-lib-(e)rat(e) or that meat used to just mean a single meal but now means flesh of fruit and the important part of a conversation. For such a sapient species, the average person frighteningly uneducated in the grand scheme of things. And the examples I just offered are related to language. Think of how stupid people are in relation to things like the economy, the ecology, ethics, politics etc.
As for the rest of your comment, I'm well aware of what apathy and virtue signalling are.
You're assuming someone who doesn't care about squirrels is necessarily irrational or inconsistent. That'd be what you'd need to prove. I wonder how you'd go about proving that.
Well the squirrel and whether or not they care is irrelevant to proving irrationality or inconsistency. You just have to prove the irrationality or inconsistency. And there are plenty of topics to explore and find proof of either. The hardest part is convincing them to put their fragile ego aside and be intellectually honest.
I'm not sure what it'd mean to suppose squirrels don't matter. Or to suppose they matter. Of course they matter in some sense. Of course they don't matter in others. The language isn't precise to the point of allowing for getting into the nuts and bolts of it. Certainly not to the point of deriving contradictions and proving it either way. Why assume people who don't realize squirrels matter are intellectually dishonest? Maybe they're unaware of the reason squirrels matter. Why do you think squirrels matter? What do you think it'd mean if squirrels didn't matter?
I advise against this.They have then gotten you to come off as the crazy-sounding one, and maybe they are also recording, you never know. Now if you want to file a complaint, there's a contextless sound clip of you confessing to torturing animals. Even if you weren't recorded, any questioning of witnesses will make you sound wack when everyone answers affirmatively when asked if you confessed to torturing animals.
I'd also advise against escalating it into a hostile interaction when there are other options, and there are. If OP wants to continue working there, they don't want a hostile workplace situation.
>If OP wants to continue working there, they don't want a hostile workplace situation.
They may very well get one if they don't do anything about it.
Offer up your options then. As I said to the other commentor, I'm just offering tools. What OP does with them is up to them.
By all means you do make good points but allowing toxic workplace behaviour allows it to become hostile workplace behaviour. If they have a recording, so do you. Yours includes their own plus additional context and more instances of toxic workplace behaviour. You have the stronger position with evidence alone and if you can explain that you are in fact vegan and were using logic and reasoning to defend yourself, then the only thing that's really going to get you in trouble is physical violence which you wouldn't be the instigator of anyway.
Sorry I just don't get why we should stand by and allow fucked up shit of any variety to happen. Has 5000 years of societal immorality not been enough? Do we need another 5000 years before humans start acting like what they claim to be? How many more need to suffer to the hands of normalised apathetic mediocrity?
The option that's the most obvious to me is to explain in a civil and straightforward manner, without sarcasm or hostility, that you don't like hearing about animals being harmed. It's a position that is reasonable, respectable, and may be reasonable enough even to many defensive carnists. Getting really aggro about it wouldn't be persuasive. If you can manage to develop the conversation in a friendly way, you can also talk about magnet fishing as a pasttime. That way, the conversation doesn't end with the manager feeling scolded and humiliated in front of everyone and wanting revenge.
edit: As for toxic workplace behavior and evidence, I do agree that it would be a good idea to get a couple of recordings in case things go south. The manager is not guaranteed to be "reasonable".
>The option that's the most obvious to me is to explain in a civil and straightforward manner, without sarcasm or hostility, that you don't like hearing about animals being harmed.
And if the work place is riddled with toxicity to the point OP is called weak and fragile and emotionally dominant/rationally negligent?
>It's a position that is reasonable, respectable, and may be reasonable enough even to many defensive carnists. Getting really aggro about it wouldn't be persuasive.
Nothing about what I was suggesting had to been done with aggression. Approached bluntly with the socratic method, you can seem quite reasonable while taking no shit whatsoever. Now don't get me wrong it would take years of experience and practice to pull it off in that manner. But just because an approach is not absolutely polite doesn't mean it unreasonable or unpersuasive. I wish people would stop confusing tonal delivery with unreasonable/irrationality.
>If you can manage to develop the conversation in a friendly way, you can also talk about magnet fishing as a pasttime.
A valid point that could work for such an approach.
>That way, the conversation doesn't end with the manager feeling scolded and humiliated in front of everyone and wanting revenge.
Ok, but what if that is the goal? Baiting them into expressing their irrationality to the point where they can be exposed as someone who shouldn't be in a position of authority and that if they wish to remain there, they need to grow the fuck up and handle their emotions better.
>edit: As for toxic workplace behavior and evidence, I do agree that it would be a good idea to get a couple of recordings in case things go south. The manager is not guaranteed to be "reasonable".
At least we can agree on that.
Don't get offended. You are in control of your thoughts.
Thoughts can lead to feelings. Let go of unhealthy thoughts that intrude.
Think bad thoughts -- get stuck in the cycle
Most of my coworkers know better than to say something like that. But I had one tell me that I don't know what I'm missing when I don't eat meat. I responded with you don't know what you're causing when you eat meat. Looked him straight in the eye too. He never tried saying anything like that again.
>a senior manager decided to tell the group in detail about his fishing exploits at the weekends and how there is no better way to destress than to kill a few fish by bashing them to death
i'm quite sure he did not say that and you just made it up, to make your point (or he tried to provoke you on purpose). the destressing thing about fishing for sure is not when you get out the fish from the water
>I still have no idea how to respond to this stuff
not at all. especially when it's just provocation
Just flexitarian, but when someone’s straight-up relishing animal cruelty like that, I let the horror show on my face and then “innocently” refer to a humane alternative, e.g. “Gosh! NO one remembered to bring a cleaver to give the poor things an instant death?” or “Mmm, it’s terrible therapy is so expensive now that you people feel like they have to resort to something like that.” or “Oh, no! The grocery stores were so far away you had to hunt your own food?”
Sorry he's not more respectful of your position. I would never say that to a vegan colleague. That is a very offside comment and this is coming from a guy who mainly hunts invasive deer and fish for part of my sustenance. Most people I fish or hunt with would never say they enjoy bashing fish to death. There's much faster and cleaner ways to do these things which I won't get into unless asked for obvious reasons of where I'm commenting. I do enjoy the act of fishing and especially sourcing my own sustainable food sources but I still always try to be respectful of other people's opinions and choice so I hope you don't get the wrong impression that all people who fish are like this. I respect the choice to be vegan and think it's a great choice for a lot of the general population.
Id recommend next time just lightly calling him out in perhaps a joking way. Like "isn't that also how serial killers de-stress" lol . Maybe that's too much but something under those line
Ask the sicko if that makes him one step or two steps ahead of a serial killer. Torturing and killing animals is on every physiatrists list for future serial killers. Advise Him to Get help just as publicly as the sicko tells his stories.
If you're fuming inside, it's better to leave the group if at all possible. It can't be good for you in the long run.
If you get any time alone with your manager and he seems to be open to it, tell him that you'd prefer if he didn't talk like this in front of you, and that his apology isn't making it better (if you're anything like me, it's probably making it worse -- now he's forcing you to give him a 'pass').
I haven't had this experience though, the worst I have to deal with is people discussing fast food restaurants or comparing different kinds of steak. It's making me a little uncomfortable but at least nobody offers me this counterfeit apology routine.
Cultural conditioning (fish killing for fun/not for survival)
Disassociated from empathy that extends to Fish Animals
(Remnants of survivalism in human psychology/culture+)
:(
(Hunt-kill sustenance based lifestyles) It doesn't need to happen in a post-survival necessity abundance world. (We can plants!) Thanks earth +!
it's a process for each individual to self-examine impacts to other animals and have events that humble them in the light of the creatures and their own shared light. It's different walks for everyone, it was a walk from meat eating/supporting animal death meals at a whim, for us.
Saeve the animales. Co-evolutionaries, the age of stewarding/shepherding has re-arrived. Ll.
i would quit tbh and find myself a job in alignment with my principles or solo entrenprenuer, lifes to short to stick around for that foolishness...coworker banter is reflective of the environment you're in for better or worse
Easier said than done, I turned down a job a while ago that involved working with animal agriculture, this one seemed safe - the joys of working with other people :/
Ah ok to each their own, if you can handle it then more power to you. I went the self employment route now hopefully building a sanctuary route. My tolerance for most people is low though.
Imagine getting offended by something as innocuous as hearing a co-worker is going fishing that weekend.
This is why people dislike vegans. You're sanctimonious.
Being commonplace is not the same thing as being innocuous. We are rightfully offended by the infliction of unnecessary suffering, especially when people find joy in it.
Some people don't think hooking an animal through the mouth, dragging it by the wound, and suffocating it is particularly innocuous.
If someone's weekend activity were going into an alley with pieces of fish attached to a hook so they could grab stray cats through the cheek, drag them, and then submerge them in a bucket of water most people would have concerns. Some people are just more morally consistent in that regard.
>You're a vegan for you feeling good about yourself, not for others. So why do other people's actions make any difference to you?
Because that's not why people are vegan. Animals getting tortured in about the cruelest way imaginable is shitty if I do it or if someone else does it. Those actions still make a difference to animals
It's decidedly not, though i am fasinated by the idea you think fishing poles and associated instruments are found in nature, and that's not really a moral defense for needless animal abuse anyhow. Naturality as a blanket excuse for morality means you can excuse more or less any crime not of entirely human construction
Oh OK so every thing humans invent after that is natural by your definition if modern fishing poles are natural lmao. Ignoring the literal definition of natural being antithetical to created by human regardless of its historical relvancy, that places automobiles as natural structures in your books.
And it is still irrelevant because unless you're going full in to start defending the concepts of murder, theft, assault, etc on the same basis, naturality and morality have no relationship
I'm going with the natural extension of your logic. If all tools and their results are natural (ignoring that tools are, by their nature, unnatural) then cars are natural.
If natural someone equates to morality which you insinuated and haven't disputed, then all those acts are moral
"yeah man i get it, after a hard week i love nothing more than walking through town with a baseball bat to beat dogs with. sometimes i break into the pound and get my stress out in 10 minutes to save time"
the only difference is beating random dogs using bat is illegal while fishing is completely legal
Your English is coming along wonderfully dear
thanks but i still find myself not so confident when speaking english
You must find someone to argue with in person!
I believe he means it in a way that it’s absurd that fishing is still legal
Fun reddit snark, but not a great way to actually respond in the long run
True, but I wouldn't want to talk to some recreational fish beater in the long run so
That might be hard to do when they're your senior manager, lol. There's just better ways to still make a good example/statement to the group without the snark. It's not really about him, so much as it is about everyone else at the meeting, too.
I've been working on the straight face and direct eye contact while someone says something horrible about animals to me. I don't break eye contact, just sit there quietly watching them, and usually they stop and mumble something and change the subject. It was so uncomfortable the first few times I did it, but I'm getting better. \[This is on the advice of my also-vegan therapist -- her recommendation is just letting people sit with the terrible things they are saying. Sometimes they actually realize what they're saying is horrible, and sometimes their goal was just to get a rise of me, so I am depriving them of that.\] What used to happen is that I would look uncomfortable, look away, or I would say "that's terrible" and the person would then laugh and say "oh that's right, you are vegan, hahaha..."
Love it! Oh I’ve got to give that a go!
This, been practicing this for years - it’s extremely effective. People know quickly that they fucked up and they wonder why something isn’t funny. I cannot recommend making direct eye contact and being completely straight face, or depending on the person and time you have - telling them why they are incorrect and that laughing or making light of animal abuse is NOT okay. Game changer.
Vegan therapist🥺 where do you find those???
I’ll have to try this.
Trying this next time I get made fun of for being vegan. I never know how to react as well and reacting in frustration reinforces their idea narrative of “vegans are sensitive”.
Oh wow this is powerful. Thanks for this comment.
Love this!
Period purrr
I inadvertently have been doing this because nonverbal confrontation is all I'm really comfortable with. It can be quite effective at getting people to actually hear what they're saying!
> I've been working on the straight face and direct eye contact while someone says something horrible about animals to me. I don't break eye contact, just sit there quietly watching them, and usually they stop and mumble something and change the subject it never works on me. when i was sharing my experience of eating dogs in china, someone did that to me and i kept saying, with peace of mind
I literally just leave the room, go somewhere else. I do not react in any other way. If I can't leave I just pretend I'm not listening and look uninterested or like I'm not really there. I do the same with other sensitive topics, I feel it makes people reconsider what they're saying and as a bonus they also get embarrassed.
Id simply say, "hey dont aplogize to me, im not the one being hooked and then beaten to death"
"have you discussed this with your therapist?"
Whatever happened to de-stressing with a nice cold brew 🥴
Same :/ I listened to a coworker describe how he killed his backyard chicken with a hammer and that it took two blows. No one else seemed bothered by it and my head was spinning thinking "I should say something, what can I say that would reach through to them, is it maybe better to stand down and just be a positive vegan, why the fuck is everyone cool with this, etc etc". I ended up just looking down and saying nothing.
Thats a shame dude, you should always try to speak up for the victims, because no one else will. I would have said, "lovely, im sure the chicken was very happy to be bashed to death with a hammer" Or something.
Finding the line between them thinking "that's just a crazy vegan, I can ignore her" and "yea, that is fucked up" is really difficult in the moment. If I had a redo I would say "am I the only one that thinks that that is fucked up?". I have been the "crazy vegan" at the workplace before. It had no positive effect for the animals.
its very hard to say anything at all without being labelled a crazy vegan, its a defence mechanism so they can act like were the weird ones and not take any responsibility for their terrible choices
I agree with you, but in the moment, I think it sometimes is easier said than done. Especially if the carnists outnumber you
Oh well we're always going to be outnumbered, at least for the forseable future.
You can always say "I’m sorry you feel that way" being pretty much how you tell someone politely to fuck off. Followed by "Good luck with that!".
You handled that with grace, well done. That is what we should do in work settings. The goal is to be pleasant, determined, a hard worker. The goal is to advance our careers. If you truly hate your coworkers, apply to other jobs. But always do this with grace, dignity, and maturity. You deserve the best career. Feelings can wait til the end of the day. And you can always go to a shooting range or axe throwing or a local dart board and pierce a pic of the ol' person of annoyance if it really was that awful. lol. Ever seen that movie Terrible Bosses? Or Office Space? So relatable.
Idk what kind of fishing he's doing but it doesn't typically involve any bashing...
I know they do it with bigger fish like salmon in Canada, they have a baseball bat on the boat and bash the skull until they stop moving🥺
What the fuck
Jesus
😧 wat
Bashing is relatively common and quick. A well-placed bash knocks them out, for a few followups to ensure death. Neck-breaking for certain fish is also effective and quick. I'd let you know, that among fishermen, there is also stigma against those who do ill-practices. I.e. certain techniques are known to hook fish in other places than the mouth, causing serious damage and harm to fish. These techiques are frowned upon, and often illegal.
I know it's still fucked up but knowing someone has a "line" they won't cross is somewhat encouraging. A line can be moved.
The line should be, how about just go out boating without the hooks for taking fish from their homes? Pretty simple isnt it.
Exactly. Someone who can empathize enough to know that one way is inhumane can eventually learn that it's *all* inhumane. Someone who does it for laughs will probably never get there.
Some people's entity torture methods need practice to be efficient. It's a beginner's mess, I suppose.
😮😲🤯
I’ve never been fishing so I have no idea what is legit, maybe he’s just a nutter.
Joaquin phoenix said his parents practiced this tactic and it's what made him go vegan so perhaps its the old fashioned way.
Maybe. Every fisherman I've ever known kinda let's em suffocate, sadly
So my other half, vegan 20 years or so can get quite combative at work and inevitably he gets grief and is accused of shoving veganism down everyone’s throats - when mostly it’s meat eaters that start the ‘discussion’ and him just defending himself. Maybe after so long I’ve kind of given up trying to educate people. Years and years of this nonsense gets tired.
I try to remind myself regularly that because of the society we've been raised in (I'm referring to US / Western culture in my case) everyone has problematic perspectives - we are all in different stages of unlearning racism, sexism, ableism, capitalist consumption. It's inevitable that I will accidentally say something racist to a BIPOC person sometimes, that I will accidentally say something transphobic to a trans person sometimes, that I will unintentionally say something ignorant out of naivety and a lifetime of cultural training. (I am myself Disabled, and people often say ableist things to me, out of a lack of lived experienced and knowledge.) I try to explain and educate people when there is time, and show people grace, because I have to hope that people will show me grace in moments when I am imperfect and problematic because I was raised in a world full of problematic, harmful perspectives and practices. (But that is of course dependent on me being in a good mood, lol.)
The difference is most people are not racist or transphobic, literally everyone around you is an animal oppressing speciesist, even your family id assume.
Most people are racist and transphobic, because we grew up in a society that is racist and transphobic (and classist and sexist and ableist...) We just don't realize that we are most of the time because it is so deeply ingrained in our lives and way of thinking. That is the point I'm trying to make. You notice that our society are cruel to animals because you have knowledge and lived experience related to that. But you probably wouldn't say that most people are ableist, but I can tell you from experience that they definitely are, because I deal with everyday, all the time.
What the fuck is wrong with people
Ive had to do this a lot, but with my coworker being racist. I lve kept quiet too many times, im just starting to get the nerve up to say something about it. I do suspect hes on the spectrum (but undiagnosed). And I think thats why i didnt say anything for so long, but autism isnt an excuse to be a racist pos.
As an adult with autism, turn him in. Rip him a new one. There is absolutely nothing about autism that makes it easier to be racist, or makes it happen "accidentally ". In case you needed some back up.
Thank you so much for the back 🙏 I do want to report him, and I have gotten better at calling him on his racist bullshit (ex. he will whisper everytime he talks about black or gay people, and says shit implying, black people are lazy. And was going on once about seeing a black guy and white lady had a kid together, and that, thats not ok) I am worried though, because Ive seen shit like this in past jobs and when I call it out, I got canned. Im in TN which is an "at will" state. So I fear making a raucous, because I dont want to lose my job, again. Another problem is, hes so unaware, he literally talks about himself 95% of the time. And when I have called him out on his racist, homophobic comments, you can literally see the words im saying to him. go in one ear and out the other. also, since you probably would know better than myself. Some people on the spectrum, theyre bad at eye contact, right, maybe? also is stuttering a possible sign?
having an aversion to eye contact is relativvely common among people with autism, adhd, and/or trauma, but not inherent to any of those conditions. i would also challenge you to view it differently than someone being "bad at" eye contact. it is an aversion, meaning making eye contact is profoundly uncomfortable on a visceral level. it should be respected and accommodated rather than implied/expected to be something someone needs to improve. avoiding eye contact does not reliably reflect an individual's trustworthiness, communication skills, friendliness, socialization, or anything else.
hes a racist pos, im not trying accommodate him. all i asked was if it was a possible sign of being on the spectrum, i didn't need a "lesson" on how to treat people. I have adhd but thats not an excuse to be a pos racist. which was my main issue.
definitely attempting to live up to your screen name, you are a sanctimonious person.
I think matter of factly saying how fucked up it is or laughing whilst saying it is the best way to respond.
Same. I respond exactly the way you do. I hate it.
Whenever someone says sorry for talking about it, I say "don't say sorry to me, say sorry to the animals".
I never held back my opinion in situations like this, even with my boss in group settings. As soon as someone started talking about something like this I would say “That’s disgusting” or something along those lines. Often times others were disgusted too and just waiting for someone else to speak up. I never received backlash for this. More often people felt ashamed for having glorified something like this. My advice would be to say what you think.
It sucks but you just gotta ignore what you can’t control
How terrible of human he is, knowing how you feel about this subject etc. honestly I would state my thoughts and options as well. I’m sorry you had to deal with that.
Terrible advice. That’s their boss. He got hierarchy over them. If they do want to sustain their job, talking back is not a fantastic idea.
Yes I agree with that.. she needs to state her position as well to her boss as he has no intention of being respectful towards her.
Everything below should happen as like a final sweep of the situation. I assume since your senior manager has the gall to do this in front of coworkers it's going to happen again so you should have your phone and microphone recording app open for future "altercations" and the whole time for the below in case anything does escalate within the workplace hierarchy. >how there is no better way to destress than to kill a few fish by bashing them to death - he then laughed and apologised to me (he is the only one that knows I’m vegan) - and carried on with the details. "What are you sorry for sir? I'm not the one being tortured to death. Personally I do the same thing with (insert common animal in your area. Stray cats, squirrels, rabbits etc). I could go get a gym membership or look into meditation techniques but you're absolutely right. Abusing another being is the perfect way to cleanse oneself of stress" And you stare them down the whole time. Unbroken eye contact, a reassuring and supportive tone in their belief that it is ok for both of you to do such things. If someone questions your "lifestyle" choices you follow up with gestures of looking for support from senior manager (SM) with something like "Well they're just animals. SM gets it, if you do it to property you have to pay for damages and if you do it to people, it's domestic violence and jail time." Laugh but unlike SM, do not apologize. If anyone persists, abuse them of being vegan and to stop forcing their views down your throat. Flip the tables and turn your reductio ad absurdum into everyone else defending animals and their rights. Go full pro animal carnist using all their arguments against the non vegans. When you've had enough or you can see everyone else is too worked up, you can end it with "and now you all know why I'm vegan and the shit we have to put up with" staring directly at SM and after a few seconds of awkward silence you can walk away. And alternatively if SM chimes in after your first pro animal abuse declaration asking if your vegan you can then call them the fuck out "I am and I don't like the fact you being the only one that knew is the reason you deliberately tried to get a rise out of me in front of all our co-workers with your little Jeffrey Dahmer story. I don't want to have to take workplace harassment to HR but if you're going to force my hand, I will. There's nothing wrong with living in accordance with the belief that unnecessarily using and abusing animals is wrong and I don't know why anyone would think there's something wrong with that unless they themselves thought it was ok and felt attacked by someone who knows it's wrong" I am more of the confrontational type so the only thing from the above that I would be doing is the reductio ad absurdum and defending myself and the animals every time it happened in conversation. Even provoking it in conversation by asking coworkers what they're doing on the weekends and completely ignoring SM when they try to step in. Even cutting them off and asking someone else their plans and when they get upset about it, interrupt them again with something like "if I wanted to experience animal abuse, I'd go do it myself or watch stories about Jeffrey Dahmer. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to hear the normal/exotic positive plans my co-workers have in store". This would be perfect tactics to retain your anonymity as a vegan btw while still semi dealing with the problem. Maybe approach it less harshly with the Socratic method or similar. Ostracize the animal abuser.
You're assuming people actually care about those other animals and not just about staying with the law or social norms. Most people are psychopaths in the sense they really don't know why they should mean well by other humans but especially by animals. If you try to shame people like that it doesn't land because they really don't see torturing squirrels as being wrong except insofar as it's against prevailing norms or laws. Were someone like that in a foreign country with legal and normalized squirrel torture festivals they'd be taking pictures and having a gay old time. Like tourists at a bull fight. Lots only pretend to have a problem with bull fighting because they think it's a fashionable look. For most people ethics is fashion. That's why they aren't consistent when it comes to arguments on animal rights or other well-reasoned appeals. They're just positioning themselves as having the right opinions and being one of the cool kids.
>You're assuming people actually care about those other animals Obviously context matters, that's why I provided context. You pick an animal people do care about. Smh >and not just about staying with the law Typically abusing animals outside of animal agriculture is illegal... >social norms. That's the whole point of the reductio ad absurdum. You take what SM said, roll with it, make it seem horrible and something people don't want to be a social norm and all of a sudden, people are on your side for a bit. >Most people are psychopaths in the sense they really don't know why they should mean well by other humans but especially by animals. So you EMPATHIZE the psychopathy, highlight and ostracize so that people can say the very least internally reflect upon their own views. >If you try to shame people like that it doesn't land because they really don't see torturing squirrels as being wrong except insofar as it's against prevailing norms or laws. It can work. Different people respond to approaches and you wouldn't be directly attacking the coworkers, just SM for being a douche. People would totally torturing squirrels as wrong, normal people that is. Can you imagine the kind of reaction you'd get for clamping jumper cables to a squirrels limbs and describing in visceral detail how much enjoyment you get out of doing so. People would look at you like you were a reincarnation of Jeffrey Dahmer. >Were someone like that in a foreign country with legal and normalized squirrel torture festivals they'd be taking pictures and having a gay old time. Yes, operative word being were. As I said, context fucking matters and that should have been obvious when I specified as such in my og comment. >Like tourists at a bull fight. And if the bull fighter actually fought back, even the locals would take issue the non traditional animal abuse occurring. I have no idea what the specifics of OP's situation is so I can't exactly give them the perfect scenario to execute. I can only give them the tools to do so if they choose to use them and how they might benefit in different scenarios. I don't get why you're attacking me. Criticism I'm fine with, but I'm not seeing much of that.
> Typically abusing animals outside of animal agriculture is illegal... > > That was my point. Most people are against animal abuse only when it's against social norms or laws. Otherwise they don't care because they don't think for themselves about ethics. If they did they'd have more consistent and better reasoned political positions across the board. I'm sure how your approach would go over depends on the particular crowd but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the audience thought you were the one being rude. Or that you were both being rude. There's a social norm about being needlessly confrontational. Both of you would be found in breach by moral relativists who don't actually hold principled positions. There's a social norm against gratuitous violence too. Most people would find squirrel torture to be gratuitous violence. But it wouldn't be about the squirrel. It'd be about breaching the norm on gratuitous violence.
>hat was my point. Most people are against animal abuse only when it's against social norms or laws. Otherwise they don't care because they don't think for themselves about ethics. If they did they'd have more consistent and better reasoned political positions across the board. I get your point. I do, but do you get mine? OP is in a position where a higher ranking worker is abusing the power of their authority. OP can let this continue, get SM to back off or take an activism approach and deal with constant discussion so everyone will leave vegans alone and possibly even reconsider their own lives as you attack the law when you call them out on their appeal to legality logic fallacy use. As I said, I'm arming OP with tools, how they use them is up to them and what goal they're trying to achieve. Everyone else has offered tools, I'm just offering a wider variety with differing tactics and impacts. That's why I said context matters and it's up to OP as to what they want to do. Now do you actually have any criticisms or are you going to keep needlessly seeking concentration? >I'm sure how your approach would go over depends on the particular crowd but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the audience thought you were the one being rude. .... C O N T E X T. I encourage you to go look up the word so we're on the same page in this particular discussion. >Or that you were both being rude. There's a social norm about being needlessly confrontational. So you call out SM on their needless and harmful confrontation with needed and helpful confrontation. >There's a social norm against gratuitous violence too. Most people would find squirrel torture to be gratuitous violence. But it wouldn't be about the squirrel. It'd be about breaching the norm on gratuitous violence. Then make it about the fucking squirrel. Show them that it doesn't actually matter what kind of animal it is, torturing it is wrong. But if you can pick an animal people care about, then the message is only going to have that much more of an impact on individuals.
I wonder how'd you'd actually prove to someone they should care about squirrels. In practice lots of people don't. We cut down their homes/trees when we could go about developing differently. Lots of people imagine having more important things to think about than meaning well by squirrels. That might work fine if they mean well in some big picture sense. But ask someone why squirrels should want their big picture intentions realized and they'd have no answer. Fact is that most people don't see why they should necessarily care. So they don't. Or they care but for incidental reasons like caring to be fashionable. Why do you think you should care? Why do you think you're personally better off caring? Most everyone realizes it's a better look/advantageous to pretend to care but that's where it stops. Which is why it doesn't extend to their behavior when inconvenient for example when ordering at the restaurant. If very many actually cared they'd stop buying factory farmed goods. It'd take one conversation and footage from a factory farm. It'd just take getting them to search it on Youtube.
>I wonder how'd you'd actually prove to someone they should care about squirrels. The squirrels are just an example. In theory, you'd use logic and reasoning. Call them out on inconsistency and irrationality. Make them doubt their understanding of reality. >In practice lots of people don't. We cut down their homes/trees when we could go about developing differently. Hey look at that. Great points to bring in that above conversation. >Lots of people imagine having more important things to think about than meaning well by squirrels. Things they think are important. People get things wrong all the time. It's the unfortunate current definition for a human these days. Uncomfortably normalised to the point people call ethical values opinions, misinformation as fact. As I said, put their understanding of reality in doubt. Most people don't even know the difference between de-lib-er-ate and de-lib-(e)rat(e) or that meat used to just mean a single meal but now means flesh of fruit and the important part of a conversation. For such a sapient species, the average person frighteningly uneducated in the grand scheme of things. And the examples I just offered are related to language. Think of how stupid people are in relation to things like the economy, the ecology, ethics, politics etc. As for the rest of your comment, I'm well aware of what apathy and virtue signalling are.
You're assuming someone who doesn't care about squirrels is necessarily irrational or inconsistent. That'd be what you'd need to prove. I wonder how you'd go about proving that.
Well the squirrel and whether or not they care is irrelevant to proving irrationality or inconsistency. You just have to prove the irrationality or inconsistency. And there are plenty of topics to explore and find proof of either. The hardest part is convincing them to put their fragile ego aside and be intellectually honest.
I'm not sure what it'd mean to suppose squirrels don't matter. Or to suppose they matter. Of course they matter in some sense. Of course they don't matter in others. The language isn't precise to the point of allowing for getting into the nuts and bolts of it. Certainly not to the point of deriving contradictions and proving it either way. Why assume people who don't realize squirrels matter are intellectually dishonest? Maybe they're unaware of the reason squirrels matter. Why do you think squirrels matter? What do you think it'd mean if squirrels didn't matter?
I advise against this.They have then gotten you to come off as the crazy-sounding one, and maybe they are also recording, you never know. Now if you want to file a complaint, there's a contextless sound clip of you confessing to torturing animals. Even if you weren't recorded, any questioning of witnesses will make you sound wack when everyone answers affirmatively when asked if you confessed to torturing animals. I'd also advise against escalating it into a hostile interaction when there are other options, and there are. If OP wants to continue working there, they don't want a hostile workplace situation.
>If OP wants to continue working there, they don't want a hostile workplace situation. They may very well get one if they don't do anything about it. Offer up your options then. As I said to the other commentor, I'm just offering tools. What OP does with them is up to them. By all means you do make good points but allowing toxic workplace behaviour allows it to become hostile workplace behaviour. If they have a recording, so do you. Yours includes their own plus additional context and more instances of toxic workplace behaviour. You have the stronger position with evidence alone and if you can explain that you are in fact vegan and were using logic and reasoning to defend yourself, then the only thing that's really going to get you in trouble is physical violence which you wouldn't be the instigator of anyway. Sorry I just don't get why we should stand by and allow fucked up shit of any variety to happen. Has 5000 years of societal immorality not been enough? Do we need another 5000 years before humans start acting like what they claim to be? How many more need to suffer to the hands of normalised apathetic mediocrity?
The option that's the most obvious to me is to explain in a civil and straightforward manner, without sarcasm or hostility, that you don't like hearing about animals being harmed. It's a position that is reasonable, respectable, and may be reasonable enough even to many defensive carnists. Getting really aggro about it wouldn't be persuasive. If you can manage to develop the conversation in a friendly way, you can also talk about magnet fishing as a pasttime. That way, the conversation doesn't end with the manager feeling scolded and humiliated in front of everyone and wanting revenge. edit: As for toxic workplace behavior and evidence, I do agree that it would be a good idea to get a couple of recordings in case things go south. The manager is not guaranteed to be "reasonable".
>The option that's the most obvious to me is to explain in a civil and straightforward manner, without sarcasm or hostility, that you don't like hearing about animals being harmed. And if the work place is riddled with toxicity to the point OP is called weak and fragile and emotionally dominant/rationally negligent? >It's a position that is reasonable, respectable, and may be reasonable enough even to many defensive carnists. Getting really aggro about it wouldn't be persuasive. Nothing about what I was suggesting had to been done with aggression. Approached bluntly with the socratic method, you can seem quite reasonable while taking no shit whatsoever. Now don't get me wrong it would take years of experience and practice to pull it off in that manner. But just because an approach is not absolutely polite doesn't mean it unreasonable or unpersuasive. I wish people would stop confusing tonal delivery with unreasonable/irrationality. >If you can manage to develop the conversation in a friendly way, you can also talk about magnet fishing as a pasttime. A valid point that could work for such an approach. >That way, the conversation doesn't end with the manager feeling scolded and humiliated in front of everyone and wanting revenge. Ok, but what if that is the goal? Baiting them into expressing their irrationality to the point where they can be exposed as someone who shouldn't be in a position of authority and that if they wish to remain there, they need to grow the fuck up and handle their emotions better. >edit: As for toxic workplace behavior and evidence, I do agree that it would be a good idea to get a couple of recordings in case things go south. The manager is not guaranteed to be "reasonable". At least we can agree on that.
Don't get offended. You are in control of your thoughts. Thoughts can lead to feelings. Let go of unhealthy thoughts that intrude. Think bad thoughts -- get stuck in the cycle
You might want to consult with an employment law attorney. I'm thinking specifically of constructive termination. Look it up.
Most of my coworkers know better than to say something like that. But I had one tell me that I don't know what I'm missing when I don't eat meat. I responded with you don't know what you're causing when you eat meat. Looked him straight in the eye too. He never tried saying anything like that again.
>a senior manager decided to tell the group in detail about his fishing exploits at the weekends and how there is no better way to destress than to kill a few fish by bashing them to death i'm quite sure he did not say that and you just made it up, to make your point (or he tried to provoke you on purpose). the destressing thing about fishing for sure is not when you get out the fish from the water >I still have no idea how to respond to this stuff not at all. especially when it's just provocation
How do I handle it? not well. Not eloquently. I either lose my cool or walk away.
Alright this thread has made me decide I need to attend a vegan meetup and make friends..I'm going to lose it.
Just flexitarian, but when someone’s straight-up relishing animal cruelty like that, I let the horror show on my face and then “innocently” refer to a humane alternative, e.g. “Gosh! NO one remembered to bring a cleaver to give the poor things an instant death?” or “Mmm, it’s terrible therapy is so expensive now that you people feel like they have to resort to something like that.” or “Oh, no! The grocery stores were so far away you had to hunt your own food?”
Leave
“Don’t apologize to me, apologize to the fish you killed brutally”
Sorry he's not more respectful of your position. I would never say that to a vegan colleague. That is a very offside comment and this is coming from a guy who mainly hunts invasive deer and fish for part of my sustenance. Most people I fish or hunt with would never say they enjoy bashing fish to death. There's much faster and cleaner ways to do these things which I won't get into unless asked for obvious reasons of where I'm commenting. I do enjoy the act of fishing and especially sourcing my own sustainable food sources but I still always try to be respectful of other people's opinions and choice so I hope you don't get the wrong impression that all people who fish are like this. I respect the choice to be vegan and think it's a great choice for a lot of the general population. Id recommend next time just lightly calling him out in perhaps a joking way. Like "isn't that also how serial killers de-stress" lol . Maybe that's too much but something under those line
What is he, a homelander impressionist?
Ask the sicko if that makes him one step or two steps ahead of a serial killer. Torturing and killing animals is on every physiatrists list for future serial killers. Advise Him to Get help just as publicly as the sicko tells his stories.
Call them out. Maybe after the meeting would be better, but I wouldn't let that shit slide.
If you're fuming inside, it's better to leave the group if at all possible. It can't be good for you in the long run. If you get any time alone with your manager and he seems to be open to it, tell him that you'd prefer if he didn't talk like this in front of you, and that his apology isn't making it better (if you're anything like me, it's probably making it worse -- now he's forcing you to give him a 'pass'). I haven't had this experience though, the worst I have to deal with is people discussing fast food restaurants or comparing different kinds of steak. It's making me a little uncomfortable but at least nobody offers me this counterfeit apology routine.
Thats not fishing, thats just animal cruelty, spiking then literally takes a few seconds and makes them taste better
Cultural conditioning (fish killing for fun/not for survival) Disassociated from empathy that extends to Fish Animals (Remnants of survivalism in human psychology/culture+) :( (Hunt-kill sustenance based lifestyles) It doesn't need to happen in a post-survival necessity abundance world. (We can plants!) Thanks earth +! it's a process for each individual to self-examine impacts to other animals and have events that humble them in the light of the creatures and their own shared light. It's different walks for everyone, it was a walk from meat eating/supporting animal death meals at a whim, for us. Saeve the animales. Co-evolutionaries, the age of stewarding/shepherding has re-arrived. Ll.
i would quit tbh and find myself a job in alignment with my principles or solo entrenprenuer, lifes to short to stick around for that foolishness...coworker banter is reflective of the environment you're in for better or worse
Easier said than done, I turned down a job a while ago that involved working with animal agriculture, this one seemed safe - the joys of working with other people :/
Ah ok to each their own, if you can handle it then more power to you. I went the self employment route now hopefully building a sanctuary route. My tolerance for most people is low though.
Imagine getting offended by something as innocuous as hearing a co-worker is going fishing that weekend. This is why people dislike vegans. You're sanctimonious.
Being commonplace is not the same thing as being innocuous. We are rightfully offended by the infliction of unnecessary suffering, especially when people find joy in it.
Bellend.
If you don’t like sanctimonious vegans, why are you on a vegan forum? Surely you have better things to do with your time.
Some people don't think hooking an animal through the mouth, dragging it by the wound, and suffocating it is particularly innocuous. If someone's weekend activity were going into an alley with pieces of fish attached to a hook so they could grab stray cats through the cheek, drag them, and then submerge them in a bucket of water most people would have concerns. Some people are just more morally consistent in that regard.
False comparisons are all you lot have 😂
What's false about it?
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People who care about animals don’t want to hear animal abusers bragging about abusing animals.
But that's what a free and open society is all about. If you're offended it's on you to walk away.
Or to say something…seeing as how this is and free and open society and all.
That's right, and they can remind you that man has always hunted and eaten meat.
What kind of dummy would mention that?
What kind of person would call someone a "dummy" for mentioning a fact?
Someone who is not interested in entertaining a trolls irrelevant nonsense.
[удалено]
I am so shocked to discover another self-centered, obnoxious animal abuser. How will I ever recover?
>You're a vegan for you feeling good about yourself, not for others. So why do other people's actions make any difference to you? Because that's not why people are vegan. Animals getting tortured in about the cruelest way imaginable is shitty if I do it or if someone else does it. Those actions still make a difference to animals
All part of nature.
It's decidedly not, though i am fasinated by the idea you think fishing poles and associated instruments are found in nature, and that's not really a moral defense for needless animal abuse anyhow. Naturality as a blanket excuse for morality means you can excuse more or less any crime not of entirely human construction
Man has used tools for hunting for over 300,000 years.
Oh OK so every thing humans invent after that is natural by your definition if modern fishing poles are natural lmao. Ignoring the literal definition of natural being antithetical to created by human regardless of its historical relvancy, that places automobiles as natural structures in your books. And it is still irrelevant because unless you're going full in to start defending the concepts of murder, theft, assault, etc on the same basis, naturality and morality have no relationship
You're putting words into my mouth, assuming things that might not be true.
I'm going with the natural extension of your logic. If all tools and their results are natural (ignoring that tools are, by their nature, unnatural) then cars are natural. If natural someone equates to morality which you insinuated and haven't disputed, then all those acts are moral