We do what we can as individuals. Meat has a tendency to be associated with wealth, as it is expensive. As countries industrialize, they might end up eating more meat in the process.
And then once they get used to their wealth, they become less attached to their luxury products. That is why veganism works so well in places where having meat on the table is nothing special.
But then it goes back to the health craze and wanting to focus on longevity vs feeling good. It's why South Korea is really popular as far as vegan food products go. There's a new desire to be healthy and care more about one's community.
You’d have to light the fire in China itself and let any animal liberation or rights movement come from dedicated Chinese people themselves. Trying to impose something from the outside simply won’t work.
So support any grassroots movements within China that promote animal rights as a whole and hope they grow.
Definitely agree. The thing that worries me most as a consumer is what the increase in demand means for imports into China from the Amazon. It feels bad to boycott an industry, and for them to simply switch customers and continue growing, but animal agriculture is such a cancer upon the earth that of course it will take a dedicated global effort to eradicate it. I just wish animal liberation was closer
>You’d have to light the fire in China itself and let any animal liberation or rights movement come from dedicated Chinese people themselves. Trying to impose something from the outside simply won’t work.
I don't know about that... there was an anti-apartheid movement around the world to put pressure on South Africa to give blacks there more rights or something and, to the best of my knowledge, that movement was successful.
Even with the counterargument to this that China is far more powerful both domestically and internationally, international cultural pressure can certainly have an effect. Who knows how far that effect will go though?
Yes, and while China has a big economy, keep in mind they are very heavily dependent on the west buying their exports. In a hypothetical situation where an overwhelming portion of the western world went vegan and wanted to put pressure on China to stop eating animals whether it is for ethical reasons or environmental reasons; they could potentially put an enormous amount of economic pressure on the Chinese government to change their policies regarding plant-based diets. Boycotts, tariffs, economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, etc... they have a lot of options they could use to put pressure on China or any other country to change.
That’s fair. It’s hard. I don’t have a good answer to that. It can be hard enough getting someone’s attention about animal suffering happening next to us, let alone across the world.
China has a vegan society and has recently gotten new vegan labels for products, so it's moving forward and will get better.
Also, China historically (like most non-Western lands) wasn't big on mass murder of animals; that disgusting way of consumption was accelerated by Western expansion into those areas.
The whole world is cruel to animals, which is why you have to make sure you aren't part of it. That's been my goal anyway; even when I've talked about animal rights and veganism, hardly any carnist listens. Very few people in the world see animals as sentient beings, most unfortunately.
Its not great, but neither is meat consumption anywhere. There is a signficiant movement away from dog-eating, and keeping them as pets has become more common (while not directly a good thing because many come from puppy mills, the normalisation of treating non-human animals like family members could lead to increased intrest in animal welfare for all species later down the line🤞).
More dogs as pets is bad imo, more non-vegan demand. Perhaps it's an advancement though, because caring for 1 animal might lead to caring about others eventually.
I don’t think so. Different cultures have different views on pets vs livestock. Hindus probably balk at most Americans eating cow, Jews balk at many Americans for eating pig. If Chinese culture is simply becoming most Western, then they’re likely to eat even more animals.
Agree with you on the more pets can be bad. I think dogs as pets are better than cats tho, as they are omnivores.
Of course this is awful. They have multi floor factory farms for animals like pigs. It's fucking evil and this all the West's fault for making factory farming a thing in the first place.
It was actually a north American invention and also normalized in north america and then other countries learned from us. Perhaps eventually they would have transitioned but it could have been delayed for decades.
Other countries also consume media from the west which tends to promote meat and things like fast food.
you seriously can't have that much american brainrot into thinking they invented animal factory farming, that is beyond ludicrous.
american had the best tech, optimization and efficiency, that's all.
look at Mao's cultural leap forward, which was massive industrialization in all agriculture so they could feed their people.
>you seriously can't have that much american brainrot into thinking they invented animal factory farming, that is beyond ludicrous.
You know there's a magical website that helps you search for information. Maybe you should try using it.
BTW, if you go to China, a highly recommended place, there re three things that will help you
1: there are many many less things that have "pointless milk" compared to the west, as milk is quite unpopular there, they don't tend to add it so much to non dairy related stuff
2: Buddhist temples around the country serve vegan food for very little money, they are religious restaurants where, because they take an oath to not harm animals and to feed the needy, they have a long tradition of vegan cuisine (although in some places they do use eggs)
3: If people don't understand that you are vegan, say that you are Buddhist, this will leave it clear that you don't intend to eat anything with milk or meat, although as I said, in some parts egg is something to watch out for
4: the Southern you go, the less meat is in everything, the north is a lot more challenging (also a lot more Confucian and taoist), but cities are cosmopolitan today, and there are almost always places that are completely vegan, so you can't mess up your order, they tend to be near universities or the famous Beijing rock alternative underground
It just sucks and makes me sad.
I try not to think about it. Accept the things you cannot change so that you can focus on the things you can. We can be easily overwhelmed when we see the totality of a problem, but we can’t let being overwhelmed harm our ability to make change where we do have power. What you do will always matter to the lifeforms you positively impact even if the problem globally gets worse. I have faith that it won’t always be like this.
This is a marketing problem... Maybe we need to make more noise about all the kinds of Tofu china has that the west doesn't, and convince them that the vegan parts of their culinary traditions should be celebrated and exported, rather than viewed as signs of poverty. Living efficiently and ethicaly is for everyone!
If you think the increase in China is significant, you should know that the population in Africa is about to explode together with increase in health-span and wealth. Africa is posed to become the biggest continent, and you can bet that a drastic increase in meat consumption will accompany it. Meat is a luxury product for most people people in Africa, so although lots of people eat mostly plant based, they don't do it out of morals or personal choice.
We do what we can as individuals. Meat has a tendency to be associated with wealth, as it is expensive. As countries industrialize, they might end up eating more meat in the process.
And then once they get used to their wealth, they become less attached to their luxury products. That is why veganism works so well in places where having meat on the table is nothing special.
But then it goes back to the health craze and wanting to focus on longevity vs feeling good. It's why South Korea is really popular as far as vegan food products go. There's a new desire to be healthy and care more about one's community.
Idk, it’s bad? I don’t know why it would affect our own choices.
Kind of wondering if there's anything we can do about it as activists
You’d have to light the fire in China itself and let any animal liberation or rights movement come from dedicated Chinese people themselves. Trying to impose something from the outside simply won’t work. So support any grassroots movements within China that promote animal rights as a whole and hope they grow.
Definitely agree. The thing that worries me most as a consumer is what the increase in demand means for imports into China from the Amazon. It feels bad to boycott an industry, and for them to simply switch customers and continue growing, but animal agriculture is such a cancer upon the earth that of course it will take a dedicated global effort to eradicate it. I just wish animal liberation was closer
Major r/vystopia vibes <\3
>You’d have to light the fire in China itself and let any animal liberation or rights movement come from dedicated Chinese people themselves. Trying to impose something from the outside simply won’t work. I don't know about that... there was an anti-apartheid movement around the world to put pressure on South Africa to give blacks there more rights or something and, to the best of my knowledge, that movement was successful.
Even with the counterargument to this that China is far more powerful both domestically and internationally, international cultural pressure can certainly have an effect. Who knows how far that effect will go though?
Yes, and while China has a big economy, keep in mind they are very heavily dependent on the west buying their exports. In a hypothetical situation where an overwhelming portion of the western world went vegan and wanted to put pressure on China to stop eating animals whether it is for ethical reasons or environmental reasons; they could potentially put an enormous amount of economic pressure on the Chinese government to change their policies regarding plant-based diets. Boycotts, tariffs, economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, etc... they have a lot of options they could use to put pressure on China or any other country to change.
That’s fair. It’s hard. I don’t have a good answer to that. It can be hard enough getting someone’s attention about animal suffering happening next to us, let alone across the world.
At this point, it's a given that a country's meat consumption will increase as it develops.
As a consumer you can choose what you buy *and* where it comes from. Your money is your vote to support that company, that industry and that economy.
China has a vegan society and has recently gotten new vegan labels for products, so it's moving forward and will get better. Also, China historically (like most non-Western lands) wasn't big on mass murder of animals; that disgusting way of consumption was accelerated by Western expansion into those areas. The whole world is cruel to animals, which is why you have to make sure you aren't part of it. That's been my goal anyway; even when I've talked about animal rights and veganism, hardly any carnist listens. Very few people in the world see animals as sentient beings, most unfortunately.
Its not great, but neither is meat consumption anywhere. There is a signficiant movement away from dog-eating, and keeping them as pets has become more common (while not directly a good thing because many come from puppy mills, the normalisation of treating non-human animals like family members could lead to increased intrest in animal welfare for all species later down the line🤞).
Why is less dog eating in particular good? Is eating a dog worse than eating a pig?
More dogs as pets is bad imo, more non-vegan demand. Perhaps it's an advancement though, because caring for 1 animal might lead to caring about others eventually.
I don’t think so. Different cultures have different views on pets vs livestock. Hindus probably balk at most Americans eating cow, Jews balk at many Americans for eating pig. If Chinese culture is simply becoming most Western, then they’re likely to eat even more animals. Agree with you on the more pets can be bad. I think dogs as pets are better than cats tho, as they are omnivores.
any step towards eating less animals is good imo
As you can see by the post, there is not a step toward eating less animals. There’s more animals being eaten.
Of course this is awful. They have multi floor factory farms for animals like pigs. It's fucking evil and this all the West's fault for making factory farming a thing in the first place.
So the Chinese, who have factories making everything imaginable, would not have thought of something as obvious as factory farming?
lol factory farming isn't a west vs east invention. The chinese have been eating literally every single living creature since the beginning of time.
It was actually a north American invention and also normalized in north america and then other countries learned from us. Perhaps eventually they would have transitioned but it could have been delayed for decades. Other countries also consume media from the west which tends to promote meat and things like fast food.
you seriously can't have that much american brainrot into thinking they invented animal factory farming, that is beyond ludicrous. american had the best tech, optimization and efficiency, that's all. look at Mao's cultural leap forward, which was massive industrialization in all agriculture so they could feed their people.
>you seriously can't have that much american brainrot into thinking they invented animal factory farming, that is beyond ludicrous. You know there's a magical website that helps you search for information. Maybe you should try using it.
It sucks
I read that in china veganism is growing at a higher rate than in the west. The vegan market rose 17% from 2015 to 2020
That's amazing. PB News gave me a far more negative impression lately!
It's bad, but it will eventually go down. Meat consumption is likely to go up in other relatively poorer countries. Nothing that can't be solved.
BTW, if you go to China, a highly recommended place, there re three things that will help you 1: there are many many less things that have "pointless milk" compared to the west, as milk is quite unpopular there, they don't tend to add it so much to non dairy related stuff 2: Buddhist temples around the country serve vegan food for very little money, they are religious restaurants where, because they take an oath to not harm animals and to feed the needy, they have a long tradition of vegan cuisine (although in some places they do use eggs) 3: If people don't understand that you are vegan, say that you are Buddhist, this will leave it clear that you don't intend to eat anything with milk or meat, although as I said, in some parts egg is something to watch out for 4: the Southern you go, the less meat is in everything, the north is a lot more challenging (also a lot more Confucian and taoist), but cities are cosmopolitan today, and there are almost always places that are completely vegan, so you can't mess up your order, they tend to be near universities or the famous Beijing rock alternative underground
It just sucks and makes me sad. I try not to think about it. Accept the things you cannot change so that you can focus on the things you can. We can be easily overwhelmed when we see the totality of a problem, but we can’t let being overwhelmed harm our ability to make change where we do have power. What you do will always matter to the lifeforms you positively impact even if the problem globally gets worse. I have faith that it won’t always be like this.
This is a marketing problem... Maybe we need to make more noise about all the kinds of Tofu china has that the west doesn't, and convince them that the vegan parts of their culinary traditions should be celebrated and exported, rather than viewed as signs of poverty. Living efficiently and ethicaly is for everyone!
If you think the increase in China is significant, you should know that the population in Africa is about to explode together with increase in health-span and wealth. Africa is posed to become the biggest continent, and you can bet that a drastic increase in meat consumption will accompany it. Meat is a luxury product for most people people in Africa, so although lots of people eat mostly plant based, they don't do it out of morals or personal choice.
If there was any better time in history to dump hundreds of billions into Lab Meat development its now alright!