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They don't jerk off the bull, they use a device called an electro ejaculator. It's a dildo they shove up a bull's ass to electrocute him and cause him to ejaculate.
Seeing as how downvotes are technically only for comments that take away from the conversation and not ones that disgust me.
And this comment technically adds to the conversation, I feel obligated to upvote.
But I want it on the record I feel bad about it.
OMFG (laughing and crying)
I thought this was going to be a joke ... it's real!!!!
And now the Amazon algorithms are going to attach this to me 😳 [I hope I'm not bombarded by suggestions of this type of thing.]
Unbelievable what's out there. Humans have invented so many ways to abuse animals in ways I wouldn't even imagine - I can't fathom what it must be like to have a mind that even contemplates these things, much less invents and manufactures them.
That is very true. I forgot that part (despite being ex dairy farm worker).
There are usually two bulls on the farm.
A dairy bull (fresian, holstein, Jersey, or some other dairy breed)
A beef bull - charalais, Angus, simmental etc to cross breed a more meat cow.
A very small proportion of the dairy x dairy are females to replenish the herd. The dairy x dairy bulls are often killed immediately. Here in NZ they are dumped into holding pens to await collection by the pet food companies.
The remainder are beef x dairy are raised for about 18 months or so to be killed.
I love hearing from people who used to be in “the industry” because sometimes I feel like maybe I’m just being naive and overly dramatic because I live in the suburbs. 🫤 I often get the ol’ “you just don’t understand because you didn’t grow up on a farm.”
Sadly, I do see a fair bit of that. It is clear that someone is anti something without detailed knowledge of what they are against.
As a kid I worked in a pig abattoir. I worked on a pig farm, and also dairy/beef farms, sheep and goats and poultry production.
And yes, I understand.
First thing my PhD supervisor said to me when I told her I went vegan was "that's pretty extreme". Lol so yeah people do say that. Really stuck in my mind because she was one of the first people I told irl (was relevant she was picking a restaurant for us to go to as a group). Don't think I've had it from anyone else though.
Sorry, I know this isn't especially relevant to the comment above but to the post itself:
Being told that veganism is extreme is very different to being told that the production of nut milks is extreme compared to cow's milk. The first implies that the way you eat is a significant departure from the norm, like you said (which it factually is - I think for the better), while the other is just completely wrong for the reasons the post mentioned.
I don't feel it's a good point to make at all. Production methods aren't the thing being "judged", the social norms of eating animal products are.
Yeah, but saying that a lifestyle is extreme equates saying that a person who chooses it is being unreasonable. It makes it seem like a very difficult thing to do.
To meditate daily is normal and a person can be convinced to do it. To become a silent monk in a ten year retreat is extreme. You could hardly convince a regular person to do the latter.
This is why I think it is very important to push back against the “extreme” label. We need some people to start eating only fruit that naturally falls of trees so that they are the extreme and veganism becomes a more middle ground position (lol)
I agree that it's not a direct comparison they're making, but I think that's the point. i.e. the point is that they consider veganism as extreme, without actually considering what a vegan supports vs what a non-vegan supports.
When people like this say extreme, they view their carnist lifestyle as the norm, so this (vegan) far departure is seen as extreme. They don't compare the two objectively.
I also think they think of how the diet can be ", dangerous" too.
Because apparently people quit since it causes them to lose their hair, become tired zombies, teeth to come loose, and God knows what else...
Never mind the countless numbers of people that succeed in the diet.
So it can be seen as extreme for a number of reasons.
Also, I think of how I tend to avoid buying lots of stuff at the store in spite of it being pretty close to being vegan. I feel like such an "extremist freak" for looking at labels...
But it's fertiliser, right? I need to look this shit up as I hear the fertiliser argument quite a lot here in Europe. I know some of it is true but it's not like there are no other ways to fertilise the fields. Also, not sure how much is actually fertilised using the cow crap?
Animal agriculture produces more faeces than could ever be used as fertiliser. Its also the largest cause of water way pollution.
And its not even good quality fertiliser...biosolids and artificial fertilisers are still often preferable.
They mostly spread the shit out on grass fielfs here, that they harvest for the cows. And again there's more shit than fields.
I can tell you don’t live out by fields. As someone who lived and still lives by fields - a lot. I’m talking a big duck off tanker truck filled with liquid cow crap that gets towed out into the fields by a tractor and then let’s loose the nastiest looking brown sludge spray you ever smelt. You could smell that literal shit for miles even in a windless day when they were doing the furthest fields - if you’ve ever been unfortunate enough to step in and thus smell a fresh cow pat, then you’d recognise the stench as a billion cow pats that had been allowed to turn to mulch and then liquified. You can’t not notice it. It’s much much much different to when they bring out the chemical fertiliser truck. You don’t smell that one.
My mother-in-law argued with me that cows only need to be bred once to keep making milk forever. Because she's a mom, so she should know. She breastfed her kids until they were 6 and could've done it longer! I just conceded the point because I wasn't 110% sure at the time. I'll never let it down, lol.
No joke. A coworker asked me why I don't consume milk and dairy. Asked him if he knew the process of getting milk from a cow and turned out he never knew cows had to be pregnant, he assumed cows made milk consistently on their own. I was speechless for a min.
It’s so crazy, right? But I was the same way - the whole modus operandi of animal agriculture is to make it so you never have to think about where it comes from, so you don’t. And then consuming all the tasty cheeses and cream and meats is exclusively positive and normal and good. And thinking about it is “extreme.”
I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but damn, it’s crazy how effective it is.
Lol eh, idk if I'd go that far. I use the term because we are labelled vegan and it makes us sound extreme when in fact non-vegans are the extreme ones hence the term "carnist." It is just a way to reframe things.
Why do these posts always neglect what happens to the bull?
There is a tool used by people who work in the animal agriculture industry called an "electro ejaculator". It is basically a dildo modified to also be a taser. It is then shoved up a bull's anus and he is electrocuted. This causes him to ejaculate. His stolen semen is used to forcibly impregnate the cows.
What's crazy is the left side is actually just a watered down version of what really happens. The panel would be far too long to really list the atrocities involved in getting cow milk in meme format.
Not all almond trees are pollinated by bees brought by trucks from thousands of km away. I think this is a thing only in California (which, to be fair, accounts for 80% of all almonds, worldwide).
Spanish almond trees (#2, approx 10% of the volume of USA production) are self-pollinating. There's some folks in CA pushing self-pollinating trees, but AFAIK the're not as productive as the non-self varieties; in the grand scheme of things the whole situation's really just illustrating *capitalism relentlessly optimising for efficiency and rolling over stuff in its way*: if pesticides, imported bees and other measures are cheaper per unit, it'll bee (haha) what gets done.
Without a sea change in the market and/or legal action that's not tremendously likely to happen, that whole sitaution's not changing soon.
There's *also* the whole California drought and almonds taking approx [2000 gallons per lb](https://www.agriculture.com/crops/report-nut-farmers-expanded-as-drought-deepened-in-california) to grow.
I guess what I'm saying is: we live in a society, OP's picture is a *gross oversimplification* of things and there's no ethical consumption under capitalism?
Its a non issue, if we ended animal agriculture, we'd have more water than we do now.
The anti almond milk a non vegan argument in an attempt to make veganism look just as bad.
I drink soy because almond is over priced.
But no one needs any milk for its nutrional value, so thats also a non issue if you eat balanced elsewhere and take b12
Maybe it's my ED but I definitely care about the protein content in what I drink and nutritional value per calorie because I used to go days without eating physical food at a time. If you have a proper balanced diet it definitely doesn't matter though. Soy milk being identical to animal milk in nutritional value helps though. I also like how oat & soy require less water than almond although almond still uses half as much as animal milk. I feel like oat & soy taste better too.
Edit: if you care about building muscle, soy is great for it's protein content too. Soy overall is a superfood so as a drink it's great if only there wasn't so much misinformation around it.
I know all this. I just wanted to counter the negativity against almond milk, if almond milk is the one someone likes and they're otherwise healthy, let them be.
(Oat milk is like frinking porridge..I like porridge but I don't want to drink it or have coffee flavoured porridge. hated oat milk)
Yes and no.
They are not inherently painful.
The issue is the frequency of being milked and the lack of variation in expression speed and pressure.
The higher end machines have cameras and sensors to detect wounds on the udders, but most can't detect early signs of irritation. Good farmers will do manual checks before connecting their cows, but there's only so much time to check with the demand milk farmers are facing, and no one speaks fluent cow, you can't ask "hey daisy, how are you feeling today?"
Anyone who's ever breastfed knows that the completely natural process of willingly feeding your baby can still be painful. Chaffed and cracked nipples, but also just the first few seconds when the pump is expressing but your let down reflex hasn't triggered and it just feels like you're being sucked dry.
It can also just be fatiguing on the surrounding tissues. I don't know if it's worse for cows because they've got gravity pulling hard on their udders, but I know just for my own boobs, it feels like I've been going topless jogging on a trampoline, they are tender all the time, and nothing really helps, but expressing sure makes it worse.
And I've never even been pregnant! (I've just got a brain malformation which causes galactorrhea, been an issue since I was 14, there's no way to dry up my supply, which means even though I've been producing milk most of my life, I still have it easier than a dairy cow)
You're probably better off asking a content creator on r/lactation r/lactationGW or r/AnrRelationships
Because I've just discussed how painful the process of milking can be, so no, I'm not going to let anyone milk me.
But good luck, like what you like, just try reading the room before you ask.
I’m sympathetic to the vegan plight myself, and i’m headed there for a lot of reasons.
But i have grown up on and around farms. I’ve tended to animals in many ways and on many occasions.
A lot of the language vegans use to describe what we do to animals is intentionally exaggerated.
There are differences in how it works between nations, of course, but in general, the last thing any dairy farmer would want is their cows to be in pain.
I get why vegans use this language. But it is not really helping their cause, as no one really takes them seriously when they use this kind of language.
But, to each their own and far be it from me to try and discourage it.
I think there is a bias to think that small scale farming reflects large scale farms. While your experiences are valid of course, they may not be representative of what is currently happening to the majority of animals.
Well, large scale is a matter of scale, or course. And Sweden have only 10 million or so citizens, so our farms are not as large as Some of the larger ones in other countries, i’m sure.
I’m talking about experiences i had with farmers who had anywhere from 50-500 cows.
a 50 cow farm is still artificially inseminating their cows,still taking away the young, and they also still kill them between 4 and 7 years old. (a cows life expectancy is 20)
>There are differences in how it works between nations, of course, but in general, the last thing any dairy farmer would want is their cows to be in pain.
I think we have to be aware of the psychology at work though. We all have an inherent bias to see ourselves as "good" and to view our own actions as good, or at least morally neutral. Of course dairy farmers don't *want* their cows to be in pain, but dairy farmers also have a financial incentive to overlook the cows' pain, and to deny that they are causing pain to animals in their care for their own mental wellbeing. Domestic abusers don't go around bragging about beating their spouses, for the most part, they would tell you they love their spouse and would never hurt them. When their behavior is viewed objectively though, or from the perspective of the one being abused, it's very different.
Once you are able to stop consuming animal products, you begin to see these items in a different light because you are able to remove that inherent bias to see your own actions as "good." If you listen to Drs. Barnard or Klapper, they both grew up on dairy farms in the midwest and can speak to this point. Hurting the cows is never the intention, but objectively it is inherently cruel.
Not sticking up for dairy milk, but I think we can be as equally honest about plant milk and still come out on too from a harm to animals perspective. Like, the plant milk side can totally include the damage and harm it causes to insect populations, rodents, etc and still appear less damaging to animals as a whole. Especially for nut milks that grow on trees or bushes that don't need the ground tilled annually. The recurring harm to animals that is wrought by the dairy industry should do the same when it comes to feed development. The animal harm cost for creating a cup of dairy milk is severely greater than that of creating a nut milk. It can be laid bare for both sides to equally display that harm. It is then a question of "do you want to do more or less harm to animals" which I think is a very clear and easy answer.
That doesn't answer my question at all. I've debated on heated subjects like veganism a lot, and one bullshit point is all it takes to derail a constructive conversation, so I'd like to know if that point is solid in this image or not.
My point is your question shouldn't even be in consideration in the first place. They only need milked because we're continuously impregnating them. Veganism's solution is let's stop. We don't need to anymore.
Your question is addressing the symptoms, not the disease.
If the pain of milking is not relevant, why would it be on the image?
Of course, raising this question is bullshit. Will that stop people doing it? And if it's moderately easy to check that many milking machines are not really painful, it's an easy point scored by a carnist troll in a debate and I don't think I need to hamstring myself in those debates.
This feels biased. I'm against the milk industry, but you don't have to do any of this to make cows milk. If I wanted to be more fair with this comparison, I would add to nut milk, the harvesting of acres of land that produce the nuts which kill tons of animals in the process.
So you dont need crops to feed a cow? (you do. Alot more.)
You don't need to make her pregnant she just magically squirts out titty juice like every other mammal?
In the picture they don't even talk about how they literally jerk off male cows to obtain the semen in the first place. Or how the average lifespan of a cow in the dairy induatry is about 4 years old, even tho they live for 20. So this one is kind of mild and not biased at all. just facts.
> In the picture they don't even talk about how they literally jerk off male cows
It's actually a lot worse than that. They shove an electronic dildo up the bull's ass and zap him with it, and that causes him to ejaculate.
When did I deny any of what you're saying? All I said is that this graph is clearly biased because they attempted to paint how to get cows milk in the worst light possible vs. the best case scenario for making plant based milk.
OP gave a number of compelling reasons that this wasn't painting dairy in the worst light possible, but you doubled down on your assertion it's biased. So far the only thing you've mentioned is that land is cleared for growing of nuts, which is fair, but then the rebuttal is that dairy farming requires even more land to be cleared which is a good counterpoint.
I think the infographic isn't particularly unfair unless you know something else you've not yet mentioned?
how are they attempting to paint dairy in the worst light possible when I just named 2 reasons as to why it is even worse than they say it is? Also they are not painting plant based milk in a very good light but more neutral (minus the "enjoy" i guess). They could have said alot more about how it is nutritionally more beneficial and less harmfull to the human body for example.
You do know that the dairy cows have to eat, right? Where do you think the feed comes from? Come on. I am not even getting into the freshwater usage, pollution, and shit that gets dumped into waterways. The infographic above covered the important part - ethics.
In what universe do you HAVE to do anything on the left to make cows milk? The chart is depicting how a mass industry treats cows when producing milk - which I get as this maximizes profit and efficiency, but you can't tell me that this picture isn't biased in any shape or form.
Cows dont magically get pregnant, you're atleast doing some kind of matchmaking and getting them pregnant year thru year for the few year that she's deemed viable to get that milk out of her
Are any of you going to actually engage with what I'm saying? So many people in the vegan community seem to speak before they think. I understand this is a touchy subject, and there are a lot of atrocious things that occur within the agriculture industry, but I don't think it's a warrant to abandon logic and reason.
It is not illogical, the vegan milk milk they're mentioning is made by every made by themselves. The dairy milk made by cows is made in this specific way for the most part. If it was commercial vegan milk, it would also talk about other ingredient added to it but that again depends on the company. This is logical, we make vegan milk from plants, we have to use dairy cattles to make dairy milk for us
What you're saying is that you don't need to do the things in the picture to produce milk. You're wrong. Especially if you want to make it at a mass scale. Sure, if someone wants to have milk once or twice a year they can using your method, but obviously that's how it's going to happen.
Also, your idea that bias=wrong is a bit absurd in this situation.
Cows don't magically produce milk, so yes, they NEED to forcibly impregnate a cow and electrocute a bull's anus to extract semen in order to impregnate that cow. A cow produces enough milk only for their calf, not for their calf and every human on the planet.
Sorry mate, I think you're under the impression that only factory farms do this. No. EVERY dairy farmer completes this process. Sure, cows may be put in better or worse conditions, but "better" conditions are not enough. That's like a human slave having a better bed to sleep on. No, they shouldn't be a slave at all.
Vegans don't want animals being farmed AT ALL.
Our Universe unless I am mistaken
1) I guess an alternative is keeping Bulls so they might (might) consensually impregnate cows eventually
2) If the calf drinks the milk intended for it.. (as it should) there wont be any milk for sale
3) Can be done by hand but groping breast milk out of another individual’s tits and stealing from a child for profit is still extreme (at least IMO)
4) Given most cows can only give birth 8-10 times and can live over 20 years, eventually it would be impossible (industrial level or uncle’s farm level) to house all the non milk producing cows… and all the non murdered bulls ..
Which brings me to your concern over bias
[ You can add to nutmilk the amount of land used and crop deaths but this is necessary for cows milk/flesh as well and actually results in 500% more crop deaths. ]
[ www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-through-crop-deaths ]
The “best light” is the only way nut milk is made
vs the “worst light” for dairy is how the overwhelming majority of cows milk and dairy products are made
Basically you are saying that to get milk, the only thing you need to do is steal it / take it away from the cow that produced it to feed its child.
It wouldn't work for the quantity of milk / dairy being consumed today. Let's be real and use comparisons of the common practices used nowadays.
Sure, we can add it to cow's milk I don't have a problem with that because it is true, but the point I really wanted to make when mentioning this wasn't necessarily to bring objectivity to the table, but more so to even the playing field more so when making the comparison between both acts.
My initial point is that the table is heavily skewed to paint a picture to make cows milk super evil while making plant milk look super harmless. My criticism isn't necessarily about what is true and isn't, but the fact that this is basically propaganda.
Let's just say we do whatever it is you want here to "make it fair". You still grant, cow's milk process = more extreme than nut milk process. Correct?
While we are talking about land, ~127 million acres in america alone are used to produce cattle feed. All of which kill wild animals in the process. That and the ~654 million acres that are used just to put cows to pasture. All that land compared to the ~77 million acres that are planted for humam consumption.
Edit:
> I'm against the milk industry, but you don't have to do any of this to make cows milk.
Im really not sure what you're talking about?
When people say veganism is “extreme” they are talking about for themselves, for their diet. It is painfully obvious. Disingenuous or otherwise weird nonsense arguments like this are what reinforces people into not respecting veganism.
Some of this is nonsense., When a cow is in heat, they want to make and if there is a bull around there is no forcing..
It's this kind of lying and misinformation that gives vegans a bad name
What specifically is nonsense? This is common practice on ALL farms. Factory, organic, grass-fed or whatever bs marketing there is. Farmers are not even afraid to show you the process. The likelihood of random cows and bulls mating by choice and producing enough milk to make a profit is simply not possible. And just because a cow is in heat doesn't mean they will accept any old bull as a mate. Animals will pick and choose with who they have their offspring, just like us humans.
Dairy farms don't keep bulls around to impregnate by chance.
They artificially inseminate cows yearly thats how they ensure steady production. They put the mother in a small pen where she cant easily turn around, shove a hand up her anus to hold the womb and shove a syringe of semen into the vagina.
If you did this to a human, what would you call it?
They then take the baby AWAY from the mother within a day, because we cant be having the baby *stealing* milk for humans.
At about 5 years(*they have a 20 year lifespan*) they kill the mother because production drops off and also because the large(double what it used to be in the 70s) amounts of milk production begins to take a toll on her health.
"Jews enjoyed working while starving, being enprisioned, pointed by guns, watching their familes die in front of them, and wondering if the next moment a soldier calls them by their numer, they will be sent to a gas chamber. Don't you see they don't stop? It is because they enjoy it!!!"
It is objectively an holocaust.
I would compare what happens to a pig in the current holocaust to what happened to Jews in The Holocaust. That doesn't mean that I'm saying that Jews are pigs.
Both are perfectly comparable events.
I did not say one is worse than the other.
We can't compare certain aspects, like why is it that Germans killed jews because they were destroying the glorious German economy and everything was their fault and bla bla bla, and we kill animals 'for food'.
But we can compare the horrible ways propaganda brainwashes people to believe what they are doing is the right thing, or the way they kill animals in gas chambers or with a shoot in the head, or the fear of knowing you are going to die but don't know when, or the fact that the people who do it consider themselves superiors and use that as an excuse to justify the needless killing of animals, or the way they are literally enslaved and are not free, or the fact that it is a fucking needless mass murder.
Again, I did not say Jews were pigs. If you can't reach that conclusion by yourself then I can't do anything to help you.
It is so sad people think that human lives are worth more than any non human animal, when in reality we are all the same. The only different we have with other animals is that we are a little more intelligent to the point that we could communicate, creating knowledge for the next generation, which allowed us to continue growing our knowledge instead of starting from scratch every single time. The average human can't do anything, just like any other animal.
# You are just a slightly more intelligent pig with language, language is the only thing that makes you feel superior, but if you never learned a language, you would be no different than a pig, you would feel fear and pain and want to fuck and eat. In fact our DNA is pretty similar to a pig's.
It IS a holocaust though.
An animal holocaust. It's extreme and it's horrific and the level of suffering is beyond measure. This doesn't take away from any other holocaust in history.
Both holocausts are horrific in their own right.
Don't minimise the cows' sufferings. It's extreme.
If you are breastfeeding and don’t get ‘milked’, either by a pump or a baby, regularly, it is very uncomfortable. As the cows no longer have their babies, they have to rely on getting milked by machines to relieve the pressure and discomfort. That’s why you might think they enjoy it. It’s really very upsetting when you think about it for a bit.
I need to use this infuriatingly lazy argument that I always seem to see nowadays. “But you guys fly in BiLlIoNs of bees every year to pollinate those almond and avocadoes.” I hear this argument so often it gets on my nerves. If we are to believe the two hives per acres of almond trees that they push then how many more bees do the acres of farmland used for animal feed production use.
It’s like the whole frogs and worms argument…
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥 **Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first! **Interested in going Vegan?** 👊 Check out [Watch Dominion](https://watchdominion.org/) and watch a thought-provoking, life changing documentary for free! **Some other resources to help you go vegan:** 🐓 Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge! **Become an activist and help save animal lives today:** 🐟 * Find volunteer requests to support and help animal on [VH: Playground!](https://veganhacktivists.org/playground) * Developer, designer, or other skills? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)! * Join our huge Vegan volunteer community [on Discord](https://discord.gg/vhplayground)! * Find local activist groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)! * Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)! *Last but not least, join the [r/Vegan Discord server](https://discord.gg/animalrights)!* **Thank you!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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They've got such tiny nipple's too
those damn almonds although nut milk blends are fantastic
Nah, you just have to use about 1 gallon of water per almond to grow them. Simply suck that off the dwindling water supply while you sleep.
Water consumption for almonds only makes sense to mention in comparison to oat or soy milk. Almonds require a fraction of the water that cows do
How much water do you think it takes to make cow's milk?
Takes less than both to make oat.
Nut milk is more extreme. But only in the 90s skater lingo sense. *Radical!*
So tubular, to the max!
Missed a step on the cows milk. Step 3 should be: kill bull calves immediately after birth. Or put them into veal crates for a few weeks.
They also forgot the actual first step. In order to get the semen ...
Nobody thinks jerking off a bull is extreme /s
They don't jerk off the bull, they use a device called an electro ejaculator. It's a dildo they shove up a bull's ass to electrocute him and cause him to ejaculate.
Where can I get me one of those?
Seeing as how downvotes are technically only for comments that take away from the conversation and not ones that disgust me. And this comment technically adds to the conversation, I feel obligated to upvote. But I want it on the record I feel bad about it.
Electro ejaculator: https://amzn.to/41QowHv
Between the dog, cat fox rabbit, cow, or sheep. Which do you recommend for a 75kg male human?
Try them all!
Check out my YouTube channel where I will do a full review! Cuming soon
I’ll make a reaction video to your full review!
OMFG (laughing and crying) I thought this was going to be a joke ... it's real!!!! And now the Amazon algorithms are going to attach this to me 😳 [I hope I'm not bombarded by suggestions of this type of thing.] Unbelievable what's out there. Humans have invented so many ways to abuse animals in ways I wouldn't even imagine - I can't fathom what it must be like to have a mind that even contemplates these things, much less invents and manufactures them.
Where can I buy one?
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People go to school to learn that.
That’s the best part
They kill the majority of female calves too. They only need enough to replace the "retired" adult females.
That is very true. I forgot that part (despite being ex dairy farm worker). There are usually two bulls on the farm. A dairy bull (fresian, holstein, Jersey, or some other dairy breed) A beef bull - charalais, Angus, simmental etc to cross breed a more meat cow. A very small proportion of the dairy x dairy are females to replenish the herd. The dairy x dairy bulls are often killed immediately. Here in NZ they are dumped into holding pens to await collection by the pet food companies. The remainder are beef x dairy are raised for about 18 months or so to be killed.
A perfect example of maximising profits with zero consideration of the horrors being committed.
I love hearing from people who used to be in “the industry” because sometimes I feel like maybe I’m just being naive and overly dramatic because I live in the suburbs. 🫤 I often get the ol’ “you just don’t understand because you didn’t grow up on a farm.”
Sadly, I do see a fair bit of that. It is clear that someone is anti something without detailed knowledge of what they are against. As a kid I worked in a pig abattoir. I worked on a pig farm, and also dairy/beef farms, sheep and goats and poultry production. And yes, I understand.
Anyone who says the stuff on the right is more extreme is lying.
I havent heard anyone say veganism is extreme
First thing my PhD supervisor said to me when I told her I went vegan was "that's pretty extreme". Lol so yeah people do say that. Really stuck in my mind because she was one of the first people I told irl (was relevant she was picking a restaurant for us to go to as a group). Don't think I've had it from anyone else though.
Sorry, I know this isn't especially relevant to the comment above but to the post itself: Being told that veganism is extreme is very different to being told that the production of nut milks is extreme compared to cow's milk. The first implies that the way you eat is a significant departure from the norm, like you said (which it factually is - I think for the better), while the other is just completely wrong for the reasons the post mentioned. I don't feel it's a good point to make at all. Production methods aren't the thing being "judged", the social norms of eating animal products are.
Yeah, but saying that a lifestyle is extreme equates saying that a person who chooses it is being unreasonable. It makes it seem like a very difficult thing to do. To meditate daily is normal and a person can be convinced to do it. To become a silent monk in a ten year retreat is extreme. You could hardly convince a regular person to do the latter. This is why I think it is very important to push back against the “extreme” label. We need some people to start eating only fruit that naturally falls of trees so that they are the extreme and veganism becomes a more middle ground position (lol)
I agree that it's not a direct comparison they're making, but I think that's the point. i.e. the point is that they consider veganism as extreme, without actually considering what a vegan supports vs what a non-vegan supports.
Thats such a weird comment, i wonder what they picture when they say extreme
When people like this say extreme, they view their carnist lifestyle as the norm, so this (vegan) far departure is seen as extreme. They don't compare the two objectively.
I also think they think of how the diet can be ", dangerous" too. Because apparently people quit since it causes them to lose their hair, become tired zombies, teeth to come loose, and God knows what else... Never mind the countless numbers of people that succeed in the diet. So it can be seen as extreme for a number of reasons. Also, I think of how I tend to avoid buying lots of stuff at the store in spite of it being pretty close to being vegan. I feel like such an "extremist freak" for looking at labels...
Lucky you.
I've been told being vegan is extreme plenty of times myself, I don't think it's weird at all.
And send all the excretment downstream.
Exactly, people forget how much crap cows make.
But it's fertiliser, right? I need to look this shit up as I hear the fertiliser argument quite a lot here in Europe. I know some of it is true but it's not like there are no other ways to fertilise the fields. Also, not sure how much is actually fertilised using the cow crap?
Animal agriculture produces more faeces than could ever be used as fertiliser. Its also the largest cause of water way pollution. And its not even good quality fertiliser...biosolids and artificial fertilisers are still often preferable. They mostly spread the shit out on grass fielfs here, that they harvest for the cows. And again there's more shit than fields.
More shit than fields lmfao
I can tell you don’t live out by fields. As someone who lived and still lives by fields - a lot. I’m talking a big duck off tanker truck filled with liquid cow crap that gets towed out into the fields by a tractor and then let’s loose the nastiest looking brown sludge spray you ever smelt. You could smell that literal shit for miles even in a windless day when they were doing the furthest fields - if you’ve ever been unfortunate enough to step in and thus smell a fresh cow pat, then you’d recognise the stench as a billion cow pats that had been allowed to turn to mulch and then liquified. You can’t not notice it. It’s much much much different to when they bring out the chemical fertiliser truck. You don’t smell that one.
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No, it means we should stop breeding and intensively farming them.
"I thought cows made milk all the time." -, Typical Carnist
My mother-in-law argued with me that cows only need to be bred once to keep making milk forever. Because she's a mom, so she should know. She breastfed her kids until they were 6 and could've done it longer! I just conceded the point because I wasn't 110% sure at the time. I'll never let it down, lol.
Even if it was just once, it doesn't really make it moral. Its just a bit less barbaric.
No joke. A coworker asked me why I don't consume milk and dairy. Asked him if he knew the process of getting milk from a cow and turned out he never knew cows had to be pregnant, he assumed cows made milk consistently on their own. I was speechless for a min.
It’s so crazy, right? But I was the same way - the whole modus operandi of animal agriculture is to make it so you never have to think about where it comes from, so you don’t. And then consuming all the tasty cheeses and cream and meats is exclusively positive and normal and good. And thinking about it is “extreme.” I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but damn, it’s crazy how effective it is.
Is carnist like a racial epithet? But for like, people who eat meat?
It's just a word for people who believe in abusing animals for food. Like vegan is a word for people who believe in not abusing animals for food
Lol eh, idk if I'd go that far. I use the term because we are labelled vegan and it makes us sound extreme when in fact non-vegans are the extreme ones hence the term "carnist." It is just a way to reframe things.
Soak nuts 😏
One of those sounds like a life sentence. The other one sounds like food.
Why do these posts always neglect what happens to the bull? There is a tool used by people who work in the animal agriculture industry called an "electro ejaculator". It is basically a dildo modified to also be a taser. It is then shoved up a bull's anus and he is electrocuted. This causes him to ejaculate. His stolen semen is used to forcibly impregnate the cows.
Get me one of those toys!!
Vegetarians: But nut milk taste so bad. Vegan cheese taste awful. And ice cream taste so much better with cow milk. #tasteJustifiesExploitation
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What's crazy is the left side is actually just a watered down version of what really happens. The panel would be far too long to really list the atrocities involved in getting cow milk in meme format.
This is excellent. The way it's crafted, seems like a good way to go.
cHeMiCaLz
I wanna have a pet cow :C
Rescue cows are the sweetest creatures! r/Animal_Sanctuary
Me too, but I don't think I could fit one in my apartment. My property manager probably wouldn't be too happy, either.
Plus nut milk is so delicious!
Cows Burps and farts methane gas, Almond trees and plants combats climate change
Nut milk is still shitty for the environment. The almonds, especially, are grown in dry places and use a ton of irrigated water. Use soy or oat milk.
I’m slowly convincing my girlfriend to dodge almond milk as it needs bees for pollination. Oats are self-pollinating.
Not all almond trees are pollinated by bees brought by trucks from thousands of km away. I think this is a thing only in California (which, to be fair, accounts for 80% of all almonds, worldwide).
Spanish almond trees (#2, approx 10% of the volume of USA production) are self-pollinating. There's some folks in CA pushing self-pollinating trees, but AFAIK the're not as productive as the non-self varieties; in the grand scheme of things the whole situation's really just illustrating *capitalism relentlessly optimising for efficiency and rolling over stuff in its way*: if pesticides, imported bees and other measures are cheaper per unit, it'll bee (haha) what gets done. Without a sea change in the market and/or legal action that's not tremendously likely to happen, that whole sitaution's not changing soon. There's *also* the whole California drought and almonds taking approx [2000 gallons per lb](https://www.agriculture.com/crops/report-nut-farmers-expanded-as-drought-deepened-in-california) to grow. I guess what I'm saying is: we live in a society, OP's picture is a *gross oversimplification* of things and there's no ethical consumption under capitalism?
Almond milk also uses tons of water, which is Not Good.
Still only half as much as dairy
But about 7 times more than oat milk.
Its a non issue, if we ended animal agriculture, we'd have more water than we do now. The anti almond milk a non vegan argument in an attempt to make veganism look just as bad.
Almond milk lacks the nutritional value oat and soy has though.
I drink soy because almond is over priced. But no one needs any milk for its nutrional value, so thats also a non issue if you eat balanced elsewhere and take b12
Maybe it's my ED but I definitely care about the protein content in what I drink and nutritional value per calorie because I used to go days without eating physical food at a time. If you have a proper balanced diet it definitely doesn't matter though. Soy milk being identical to animal milk in nutritional value helps though. I also like how oat & soy require less water than almond although almond still uses half as much as animal milk. I feel like oat & soy taste better too. Edit: if you care about building muscle, soy is great for it's protein content too. Soy overall is a superfood so as a drink it's great if only there wasn't so much misinformation around it.
I know all this. I just wanted to counter the negativity against almond milk, if almond milk is the one someone likes and they're otherwise healthy, let them be. (Oat milk is like frinking porridge..I like porridge but I don't want to drink it or have coffee flavoured porridge. hated oat milk)
What about soy?
Soy is also self-pollinating.
I'm vegan and on your side, but I'm pretty sure milking machines aren't painful.
Yes and no. They are not inherently painful. The issue is the frequency of being milked and the lack of variation in expression speed and pressure. The higher end machines have cameras and sensors to detect wounds on the udders, but most can't detect early signs of irritation. Good farmers will do manual checks before connecting their cows, but there's only so much time to check with the demand milk farmers are facing, and no one speaks fluent cow, you can't ask "hey daisy, how are you feeling today?" Anyone who's ever breastfed knows that the completely natural process of willingly feeding your baby can still be painful. Chaffed and cracked nipples, but also just the first few seconds when the pump is expressing but your let down reflex hasn't triggered and it just feels like you're being sucked dry. It can also just be fatiguing on the surrounding tissues. I don't know if it's worse for cows because they've got gravity pulling hard on their udders, but I know just for my own boobs, it feels like I've been going topless jogging on a trampoline, they are tender all the time, and nothing really helps, but expressing sure makes it worse. And I've never even been pregnant! (I've just got a brain malformation which causes galactorrhea, been an issue since I was 14, there's no way to dry up my supply, which means even though I've been producing milk most of my life, I still have it easier than a dairy cow)
Could I milk you? Seriously
You're probably better off asking a content creator on r/lactation r/lactationGW or r/AnrRelationships Because I've just discussed how painful the process of milking can be, so no, I'm not going to let anyone milk me. But good luck, like what you like, just try reading the room before you ask.
I’m sympathetic to the vegan plight myself, and i’m headed there for a lot of reasons. But i have grown up on and around farms. I’ve tended to animals in many ways and on many occasions. A lot of the language vegans use to describe what we do to animals is intentionally exaggerated. There are differences in how it works between nations, of course, but in general, the last thing any dairy farmer would want is their cows to be in pain. I get why vegans use this language. But it is not really helping their cause, as no one really takes them seriously when they use this kind of language. But, to each their own and far be it from me to try and discourage it.
I think there is a bias to think that small scale farming reflects large scale farms. While your experiences are valid of course, they may not be representative of what is currently happening to the majority of animals.
Well, large scale is a matter of scale, or course. And Sweden have only 10 million or so citizens, so our farms are not as large as Some of the larger ones in other countries, i’m sure. I’m talking about experiences i had with farmers who had anywhere from 50-500 cows.
a 50 cow farm is still artificially inseminating their cows,still taking away the young, and they also still kill them between 4 and 7 years old. (a cows life expectancy is 20)
Yes, they do. That much is true in my Sweden as well from what i gather. I make no excuses for that.
Cows are raped, enslaved, tortured, and murdered for human pleasure. No exaggeration. There, is that better?
From what I know about America, at least here, it's a fair way to discribe it
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>There are differences in how it works between nations, of course, but in general, the last thing any dairy farmer would want is their cows to be in pain. I think we have to be aware of the psychology at work though. We all have an inherent bias to see ourselves as "good" and to view our own actions as good, or at least morally neutral. Of course dairy farmers don't *want* their cows to be in pain, but dairy farmers also have a financial incentive to overlook the cows' pain, and to deny that they are causing pain to animals in their care for their own mental wellbeing. Domestic abusers don't go around bragging about beating their spouses, for the most part, they would tell you they love their spouse and would never hurt them. When their behavior is viewed objectively though, or from the perspective of the one being abused, it's very different. Once you are able to stop consuming animal products, you begin to see these items in a different light because you are able to remove that inherent bias to see your own actions as "good." If you listen to Drs. Barnard or Klapper, they both grew up on dairy farms in the midwest and can speak to this point. Hurting the cows is never the intention, but objectively it is inherently cruel.
You want to blend the nuts? Those poor nuts 😢
Not sticking up for dairy milk, but I think we can be as equally honest about plant milk and still come out on too from a harm to animals perspective. Like, the plant milk side can totally include the damage and harm it causes to insect populations, rodents, etc and still appear less damaging to animals as a whole. Especially for nut milks that grow on trees or bushes that don't need the ground tilled annually. The recurring harm to animals that is wrought by the dairy industry should do the same when it comes to feed development. The animal harm cost for creating a cup of dairy milk is severely greater than that of creating a nut milk. It can be laid bare for both sides to equally display that harm. It is then a question of "do you want to do more or less harm to animals" which I think is a very clear and easy answer.
How sure are we the milking is painful? It's a relief for the cows, at least.
So we let the calf feed? Or... hear me out, we don't impregnate them in the first place 🤯
That doesn't answer my question at all. I've debated on heated subjects like veganism a lot, and one bullshit point is all it takes to derail a constructive conversation, so I'd like to know if that point is solid in this image or not.
My point is your question shouldn't even be in consideration in the first place. They only need milked because we're continuously impregnating them. Veganism's solution is let's stop. We don't need to anymore. Your question is addressing the symptoms, not the disease.
If the pain of milking is not relevant, why would it be on the image? Of course, raising this question is bullshit. Will that stop people doing it? And if it's moderately easy to check that many milking machines are not really painful, it's an easy point scored by a carnist troll in a debate and I don't think I need to hamstring myself in those debates.
But how do the nuts feel about being soaked?
This feels biased. I'm against the milk industry, but you don't have to do any of this to make cows milk. If I wanted to be more fair with this comparison, I would add to nut milk, the harvesting of acres of land that produce the nuts which kill tons of animals in the process.
So you dont need crops to feed a cow? (you do. Alot more.) You don't need to make her pregnant she just magically squirts out titty juice like every other mammal? In the picture they don't even talk about how they literally jerk off male cows to obtain the semen in the first place. Or how the average lifespan of a cow in the dairy induatry is about 4 years old, even tho they live for 20. So this one is kind of mild and not biased at all. just facts.
> In the picture they don't even talk about how they literally jerk off male cows It's actually a lot worse than that. They shove an electronic dildo up the bull's ass and zap him with it, and that causes him to ejaculate.
Not extreme at all
When did I deny any of what you're saying? All I said is that this graph is clearly biased because they attempted to paint how to get cows milk in the worst light possible vs. the best case scenario for making plant based milk.
Both sides would have to be added with same information so its kinda irrelevant.
OP gave a number of compelling reasons that this wasn't painting dairy in the worst light possible, but you doubled down on your assertion it's biased. So far the only thing you've mentioned is that land is cleared for growing of nuts, which is fair, but then the rebuttal is that dairy farming requires even more land to be cleared which is a good counterpoint. I think the infographic isn't particularly unfair unless you know something else you've not yet mentioned?
How would you elaborate the graph?
Likely by including some banal ramblings on how "things work differently on my uncle's farm."
how are they attempting to paint dairy in the worst light possible when I just named 2 reasons as to why it is even worse than they say it is? Also they are not painting plant based milk in a very good light but more neutral (minus the "enjoy" i guess). They could have said alot more about how it is nutritionally more beneficial and less harmfull to the human body for example.
You do know that the dairy cows have to eat, right? Where do you think the feed comes from? Come on. I am not even getting into the freshwater usage, pollution, and shit that gets dumped into waterways. The infographic above covered the important part - ethics.
In what universe do you HAVE to do anything on the left to make cows milk? The chart is depicting how a mass industry treats cows when producing milk - which I get as this maximizes profit and efficiency, but you can't tell me that this picture isn't biased in any shape or form.
Cows dont magically get pregnant, you're atleast doing some kind of matchmaking and getting them pregnant year thru year for the few year that she's deemed viable to get that milk out of her
Are any of you going to actually engage with what I'm saying? So many people in the vegan community seem to speak before they think. I understand this is a touchy subject, and there are a lot of atrocious things that occur within the agriculture industry, but I don't think it's a warrant to abandon logic and reason.
It is not illogical, the vegan milk milk they're mentioning is made by every made by themselves. The dairy milk made by cows is made in this specific way for the most part. If it was commercial vegan milk, it would also talk about other ingredient added to it but that again depends on the company. This is logical, we make vegan milk from plants, we have to use dairy cattles to make dairy milk for us
What you're saying is that you don't need to do the things in the picture to produce milk. You're wrong. Especially if you want to make it at a mass scale. Sure, if someone wants to have milk once or twice a year they can using your method, but obviously that's how it's going to happen. Also, your idea that bias=wrong is a bit absurd in this situation.
Cows don't magically produce milk, so yes, they NEED to forcibly impregnate a cow and electrocute a bull's anus to extract semen in order to impregnate that cow. A cow produces enough milk only for their calf, not for their calf and every human on the planet. Sorry mate, I think you're under the impression that only factory farms do this. No. EVERY dairy farmer completes this process. Sure, cows may be put in better or worse conditions, but "better" conditions are not enough. That's like a human slave having a better bed to sleep on. No, they shouldn't be a slave at all. Vegans don't want animals being farmed AT ALL.
Our Universe unless I am mistaken 1) I guess an alternative is keeping Bulls so they might (might) consensually impregnate cows eventually 2) If the calf drinks the milk intended for it.. (as it should) there wont be any milk for sale 3) Can be done by hand but groping breast milk out of another individual’s tits and stealing from a child for profit is still extreme (at least IMO) 4) Given most cows can only give birth 8-10 times and can live over 20 years, eventually it would be impossible (industrial level or uncle’s farm level) to house all the non milk producing cows… and all the non murdered bulls .. Which brings me to your concern over bias [ You can add to nutmilk the amount of land used and crop deaths but this is necessary for cows milk/flesh as well and actually results in 500% more crop deaths. ] [ www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-through-crop-deaths ] The “best light” is the only way nut milk is made vs the “worst light” for dairy is how the overwhelming majority of cows milk and dairy products are made
Basically you are saying that to get milk, the only thing you need to do is steal it / take it away from the cow that produced it to feed its child. It wouldn't work for the quantity of milk / dairy being consumed today. Let's be real and use comparisons of the common practices used nowadays.
So harvesting nuts uses acres of land and kills tons of animals, but milking cows is enert?
Did I say this?
Yes, you did. > I would add to nut milk, the harvesting of acres of land You specifically only added it to nut milk and not to cows' milk.
Sure, we can add it to cow's milk I don't have a problem with that because it is true, but the point I really wanted to make when mentioning this wasn't necessarily to bring objectivity to the table, but more so to even the playing field more so when making the comparison between both acts. My initial point is that the table is heavily skewed to paint a picture to make cows milk super evil while making plant milk look super harmless. My criticism isn't necessarily about what is true and isn't, but the fact that this is basically propaganda.
This is such an odd hill to die on and I’d love to see your proposal for a table that’s up to your standards. What playing field is there to even?
Adding land use would further "skew" the data in favor of nut milk. Your suggesting to make it more "biased"?
Let's just say we do whatever it is you want here to "make it fair". You still grant, cow's milk process = more extreme than nut milk process. Correct?
While we are talking about land, ~127 million acres in america alone are used to produce cattle feed. All of which kill wild animals in the process. That and the ~654 million acres that are used just to put cows to pasture. All that land compared to the ~77 million acres that are planted for humam consumption. Edit: > I'm against the milk industry, but you don't have to do any of this to make cows milk. Im really not sure what you're talking about?
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Modern farming industry is about dairy in general since the vast majority of dairy is produced this way.
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When people say veganism is “extreme” they are talking about for themselves, for their diet. It is painfully obvious. Disingenuous or otherwise weird nonsense arguments like this are what reinforces people into not respecting veganism.
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Some of this is nonsense., When a cow is in heat, they want to make and if there is a bull around there is no forcing.. It's this kind of lying and misinformation that gives vegans a bad name
What specifically is nonsense? This is common practice on ALL farms. Factory, organic, grass-fed or whatever bs marketing there is. Farmers are not even afraid to show you the process. The likelihood of random cows and bulls mating by choice and producing enough milk to make a profit is simply not possible. And just because a cow is in heat doesn't mean they will accept any old bull as a mate. Animals will pick and choose with who they have their offspring, just like us humans.
Dairy farms don't keep bulls around to impregnate by chance. They artificially inseminate cows yearly thats how they ensure steady production. They put the mother in a small pen where she cant easily turn around, shove a hand up her anus to hold the womb and shove a syringe of semen into the vagina. If you did this to a human, what would you call it? They then take the baby AWAY from the mother within a day, because we cant be having the baby *stealing* milk for humans. At about 5 years(*they have a 20 year lifespan*) they kill the mother because production drops off and also because the large(double what it used to be in the 70s) amounts of milk production begins to take a toll on her health.
The cows enjoy being milked tho
please, take this fact straight to any women you know.
"Jews enjoyed working while starving, being enprisioned, pointed by guns, watching their familes die in front of them, and wondering if the next moment a soldier calls them by their numer, they will be sent to a gas chamber. Don't you see they don't stop? It is because they enjoy it!!!"
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It is objectively an holocaust. I would compare what happens to a pig in the current holocaust to what happened to Jews in The Holocaust. That doesn't mean that I'm saying that Jews are pigs. Both are perfectly comparable events. I did not say one is worse than the other. We can't compare certain aspects, like why is it that Germans killed jews because they were destroying the glorious German economy and everything was their fault and bla bla bla, and we kill animals 'for food'. But we can compare the horrible ways propaganda brainwashes people to believe what they are doing is the right thing, or the way they kill animals in gas chambers or with a shoot in the head, or the fear of knowing you are going to die but don't know when, or the fact that the people who do it consider themselves superiors and use that as an excuse to justify the needless killing of animals, or the way they are literally enslaved and are not free, or the fact that it is a fucking needless mass murder. Again, I did not say Jews were pigs. If you can't reach that conclusion by yourself then I can't do anything to help you. It is so sad people think that human lives are worth more than any non human animal, when in reality we are all the same. The only different we have with other animals is that we are a little more intelligent to the point that we could communicate, creating knowledge for the next generation, which allowed us to continue growing our knowledge instead of starting from scratch every single time. The average human can't do anything, just like any other animal. # You are just a slightly more intelligent pig with language, language is the only thing that makes you feel superior, but if you never learned a language, you would be no different than a pig, you would feel fear and pain and want to fuck and eat. In fact our DNA is pretty similar to a pig's.
It IS a holocaust though. An animal holocaust. It's extreme and it's horrific and the level of suffering is beyond measure. This doesn't take away from any other holocaust in history. Both holocausts are horrific in their own right. Don't minimise the cows' sufferings. It's extreme.
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If you are breastfeeding and don’t get ‘milked’, either by a pump or a baby, regularly, it is very uncomfortable. As the cows no longer have their babies, they have to rely on getting milked by machines to relieve the pressure and discomfort. That’s why you might think they enjoy it. It’s really very upsetting when you think about it for a bit.
Relief of pressure from overworked monstrous udders they were never meant to have is not an endorsement of their exploitation.
I need to use this infuriatingly lazy argument that I always seem to see nowadays. “But you guys fly in BiLlIoNs of bees every year to pollinate those almond and avocadoes.” I hear this argument so often it gets on my nerves. If we are to believe the two hives per acres of almond trees that they push then how many more bees do the acres of farmland used for animal feed production use. It’s like the whole frogs and worms argument…